It was not until many years there was a tug of war with the Greek government - now came from: The shipbuilder, announced an agreement over the construction of four modern submarines. The way is clear for the legal processing of an arms transaction, the failure of long heralded. by Michael Gassmann Dusseldorf and Joachim Zepelin Berlin
"A continuation from an economic point of view no longer tenable," came the shipbuilding division, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems announce on Monday. Arrears as a reason the company was called by the Greek Ministry of Defense of around 524 million euros.
The armaments Order ThyssenKrupp is preparing to problems from the start. Athens was appointed in 2000 and 2002 four submarines with fuel cell technology with a total value of more than 2 billion euro, but later denied the purchase, citing technical flaws. All four submarines have now been completed.
Documents belonging to ThyssenKrupp and HDW shipyards Hellenic Shipyards announced the initiation of arbitration. According to information produced by the federal government ThyssenKrupp was due to contractual deadlines no other choice but to terminate the contract now. Otherwise the company would have had no power over against the Greek state. With the termination of the contract now comes a legal reappraisal of the business in motion. At the end of high compensation claims could ThyssenKrupp Greece are against the state.
The first submarine named "Papanikolis" was delivered in 2006, but despite the label of the German Federal Office for Defense Technology and Procurement is not accepted as defects. "It has provided all the required exams and sometimes even significantly exceeded," said ThyssenKrupp against. Greece has never terminated the contract, but pulled the payment of submarines by the criticism of their quality in the long run. Since, the ships have already been built and in the case of "Papanikolis" even baptized, Athens was able to negotiate from a position of strength: ThyssenKrupp will indeed look for other buyers held, but may be ready to sell U-boats only at a substantial discount. In addition, the potential customer base is limited by sharp export restrictions. The federal government had vainly insisted that Greece complies with its obligations to ThyssenKrupp.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 2:18 PM
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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the submarine worked within its parameters and even better
it also has been tested and got a quality stamp by the bwb (german armed production office)
anyways... the other 3 submarines of its class were not claimed to have problems and still not completely payed
even more... the upgraded u209's were not comppletely payed for eithher
one doesnt need much more then one braincell to unterstand that this is no coincidence, even thunder should be capable to understand whats the real matter behind this especially if you see that greece is also beind paying for tannks and for nh90 project!
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German industry accepted some of the shortcomings liabilities and maintains to have finally fixed the problems, however, payment has still not been made. Some expert suggested that Greece has been intentionally protracting the problem in order to delay payments and renegotiate the price. In fact, Greek Defence Minister Evangelos Meimarakis said in January he would try to renegotiate the contract.
But still not complete, i think it is bound to be much more complexe than this.
Le'ts try to figure it out because it is quiet an interesting story.
Do you know that contractualy the German Industry was in breach of their contract to the Greek State by not coming up with the good in the first place?
The Greek MoD is NOT the US MoD who accept to get shafted repeatedely by their manufacturers on the ground that this provides them with jobs and get some votes in the states where the factories are, a deep look inside F-35 programe history shows just how it is done...
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 2:48 PM
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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You guys are building these German subs under licence since how long ??
Have you discovered any problems with these subs ? They are the best in the world according to all experts in this field ..
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Boy, problems can occur at any time in any circumstances and the Gerrman admited to them, just to show that YOU have A HUGE problem of reality denial.
You should go out and try to get laid, your barking sounds increasingly like pussy farting.
40% of the USAF F-15 fleet had CRAKS on their main fuselage beam long BEFORE the end of their service life, so if the Greeks spoted some on new MBTs you bet they didn't want them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kECADcXrz-U
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 3:08 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 3:02 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 3:01 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 2:59 PM
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Doesn't stop weapon procurements or make of you asn economist, RETARD
Greece is a country with very limited resources vis-a-vis US or UK
I understand economics 100 times more than you aerodynamics or canards you
uneducated trolling and pretending retard.
You fcuking imposture
40% of the USAF F-15 fleet had CRAKS on their main fuselage beam long BEFORE the end of their service life,
F-15 is a combat aircraft that has been in action since more than 30 years.
Don't compare it with some toys produced by DASSAULT.They wouldn't last half so long under the same conditions ..
This message has been edited by leopardus on Sep 22, 2009 3:12 PM
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Delude yourslef as much as you like, the only imposture here is you pretending to have an IQ suffiscient to even write in the WAFF on military matters, let alone economics.
People can READ my studies on aerodynamics and i got thumbs up from people who matters on the field.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Leopardus there was according to rumours an explosion on TCG Saldray 209 Type 1200 class submarine, according to the rumour the explosion occurred on dry-dock when a tank was subjected to a pressure test. Still not bad for a 33 year old sub
Greeks received the first U-214, it was practically an advanced prototype where all the problems with the design would be worked out on.
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One doesn't supply defective equipement and expect no consequencies.
No score for this post
September 22 2009, 3:20 PM
Sh!t happens but it doesn't make this case for the German, they were at fault first, if the Greeks want to return these subs and MBTs they are in their right to do so.
Quote: The MORON mediocrity speaking...
"F-15 is a combat aircraft that has been in action since more than 30 years.
Don't compare it with some toys produced by DASSAULT.They wouldn't last half so long under the same conditions "
LOL: Mirage IIIs are still being upgraded and flying without ANY structural problems.
You're so THICK you can't comprehend the notion of structural g loads and what the international standard is or means.
If the US manufacturers design and build aircraft BELOW this standard to pptimise theior aircraft performances, they CRAK before others for the SAME use.
Dassault aircrafts have always been built ABOVE this standard and have a reputation of ruggednes only the A-10 can claim.
Aske the Greeks they put their 2000 back into service after a crash in the Agean sea, it augurs well for F-35 longevity. LOL!
"Combat_Master)
Greeks received the first U-214, it was practically an advanced prototype where all the problems with the design would be worked out on".
Next time they'll deliver a serie SSK with problem sorted instead of thinking the Greeks are going to pay for their sorting out.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 3:33 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 3:32 PM
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People can READ my studies on aerodynamics and i got thumbs up from people who matters on the field.
It's enough for me
Everybody is laughing at you. Your studies in Aerodynamics?? HAHAHA BS what study? you can't solve a simple equation with two unknowns what aerodynamics you idiot ?? all you have shown so far was to copy some books or magazines and post the same pages 100 times over and over again without understanding what they were .. You are an imposter ...A lying bastard and an idiot. People from whom you may have received some accolades which I don't believe are probably more ignorant than you ...
As far as I am concerned and I am sure many would share my opinion your alleged qualification in this field is ZERO..
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you can't solve a simple equation with two unknowns what aerodynamics you idiot
---
TBH, no one can solve one equation with two unknowns without expressing one unknown in function of the other.
For each unknown you need one equation and a contradiction can still occur
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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"Nighthawk00)
TBH, no one can solve one equation with two unknowns without expressing one unknown in function of the other.
For each unknown you need one equation and a contradiction can still occur"
Like pretending to compute a turn rate without knowing the maximum Structural load factor.
Reason why i was laughing so loud when Dwight Looi was pretending that F-35 was capable of out-turning a F-16 in A2A configuration...
Next stage was the total denial of the JSF programe manager stament on the reduction of these standards for weight saving purposes, trolls never learn, they CANT.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Stupid Germans, work a bit harder, pay a bit more taxes to hand over to the EU that will be handed out to Greece and eventually the Greek government will pay its debt to Germany.
Problem solved.
---
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"if the Greeks want to return these subs and MBTs they are in their right to do so. "
we dont life in a banana republic(as it is in africa where thunder originates from), so its not that easy, these are multi billion contract, you cannot simply order submarines for a few billion, get them built and then refuse to take them!
if there have ever been problems with the sub it has been solved even the greek say so(2 years ago!!!)
they still didnt pay for it
they broke the contract
not place for discussion there
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"GER_Mark)
we dont life in a banana republic(as it is in africa where thunder originates from),"
Tell me how many of your genes are Russian moron?
At least i know who my father is.
"GER_Mark)
so its not that easy, these are multi billion contract, you cannot simply order submarines for a few billion, get them built and then refuse to take them!!"
You canot simply deliver faulty equipement hoping the customer to pay you to sort it out.
"GER_Mark)
if there have ever been problems with the sub it has been solved even the greek say so(2 years ago!!!)"
They told you to DOD OF what part of it didn't you understand since years ago???
"GER_Mark)
they still didnt pay for it"
They told you to SOD OFF what part of it didn't you understand since years ago???
"GER_Mark)
they broke the contract"
NO. YOU did ityourself, you retard!
Contract means fully functional and default-less equipement; you don't deliver you eat sh!t. Now, eat sh!t.
"GER_Mark)
not place for discussion there"
With a braindead retard like you that's an understament.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 22, 2009 4:56 PM
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I guess that if the weapon system is built as working as it should we can`t just say we
don`t pay u.Probably there are issues with the submarines.
Also to the moronic Turk who thinks that Germans are morons giving away for free money to other
EU countries he should educate himshelf a bit.Germans and other Europeans give money as aid
and take back 2X times in weapon contracts,major construction works etc.
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Contract means fully functional and default-less equipement; you don't deliver you eat sh!t. Now, eat sh!t.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contract this contract that, tell me Thunder, did you actually read the whole contract?
Or are you just making sh!t up again?
If you did read the whole contract, show me the link to it!
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there is not a single topic Blunder has posted in that does not dissolve into insanity, leave him to his make believe world of being taught to fly by a General and being all knowing about aeronautical engineering and probably the secret of alchemy!
The history of English speaking peoples
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its like fighting against nuclear godjira. godjira's food is actually destruction. so when you use weapons on it, it just gets bigger.
the cyber organism's food is logic. when you put more logic in your sentences, it just gets more powerful to attack to you... what a paradox, how can you win an argument without logic?
-----------------------------
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More than 3 years we have ungoverness, and the worst is that now after the elections possibly the new Prime Minister "Jeffry Papandreou" is a non Greek person born in Minessota, from Jewish American mother. So dont expect from Greece to have serious weapon industry, and offcource the type 214s have no problems, (Koreans says that are perfect SSNs)but the only problem is that we have no goverment, and our future will be darker.
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PS: Place one of the net contributors is Germany, place one of the net recievers is Greece. (Since some People in this forum appear to be literally restricted ^^, trust me with this translation )
PPS: Im all in favor of EU integration, but given this I think even if the U-Boats are flawed Greece should rather take them, pay and remain silent. (interestingly, neither the Italians nor the South Koreans who operate the same type of Boat have had similar questions.) I for my part hope Greece invests the money it saved into fire-protection of its coast areas and fighting corruption.
---------------------------------------------
A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !
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Don´t listen to german propaganda.
All LEO2HEL are recieved and fully paid for.
The problem with U214 is not that greece has no money or anything stupid like this.
Hellenic navy just bought two further FAC from england worth over 350mio euros.
As for the dumbo gemans in here and their "we pay for greeks in EU" BS,well.
Someone should remind them that most of these EU funds for greece are for highways,airports and harbors.
Guess who gets the contracts,lol;
Main problem is that germans must get used to simple fact that nea dimokratia gouvernment is not banana republic gouvernment like former PASOK party which made all the deals incl. U214,Leo2HEL etc. years ago paying 80% of money before first screws were made.
Now problem is only with papanikolis submarine.
Hellenic navy already said that they will recieve other three U214.
Papanikolis is first submarine of this class and had many problems.
HDW worked over 2 years on papanikolis to make it seaworthy.
Germans themselves admit that it had many problems and some weeks ago they made proposal to sell it to poland or pakistan but even these countries don´t want this ****ty sub anymore.
Since there are new elections in few days and it is likely that PASOK will emerge again as gouvernment germans come again hoping these leftists will recieve this ****ty sub.
This are the facts.
This message has been edited by yannisGR on Sep 23, 2009 1:36 PM
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Its amazing that Greek's allways hijack a thread thas has anything to do with Turkey but this thread that is about Greece they AVOID it, aint it funny.
I have a question and hopefully someone can answer.
Lets say a corrupted President orders a lot of weapons in which he gets a nice bribe in return and he knows his country cant afford it but he still orders it and he loses the next election and there is a new President, and the new President is against this orders and in no way he wants them.
So should a country pay for a corrupted Presidents own benefits?
In this case the people of Greece?
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"Main problem is that germans must get used to simple fact that nea dimokratia gouvernment is not banana republic gouvernment like former PASOK party which made all the deals incl. U214,Leo2HEL etc. ............................................facts."
Do you know that Leo2HEL operate without ammunition? I dont know why you support Karamanli but the state is under collapse. Offcource with PASOK and Jeffry Papandreou the state will continue to collapse, and believe me that the only sollution for our fatherland and its sovereignity is the political party LA.O.S. and Karatzaferis
Btw,greek army recieved ammo for LEO2 from german stocks together with the LEO2A4 and there is another deal for further 20.000 DM53 made some days ago.
I rather prefer a ND with ballz than a corrupt PASOK paying the germans everything without questions and quality guarantees.
Do you know that hellenic navy had simliar problems(which prevented them to take action in summer 1974) with U209/1100 when again greek navy was first export customer of german U209 subs?
History must not repeat.
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Karmanlis and ND commited a suiside, remember that PASOK 1,5 year ago was under collapse, with a possibility to split into 2 parts, but ND brought PASOK back to life. Anyway, the main problem is that Jeffry Papandreou will cancel the deal with DCN for the FREMMs
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Don't blame the Greeks & Eastern Europeans for the idiotic policies of the EU which is mostly controlled by Germany and France. Most of the "per capita" costs that are presented in your chart are due to the agricultural policies instituted by the Union. They should be scrapped. Farmers should produce what they want in the quantities that they want for the given market price.
Beyond the agricultural policy, you also have the EU funded investments for infrastructure. I think those are fair provided that the competitions are open to all EU firms (which they are). If EU funds aid in the construction of the airport in Athens, but a German firm builds and operates it (for the next 30 odd years), there are multiple beneficiaries. That's exactly how the Union should work, not however how agricultural policy works.
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As far as the sub deal, the Germans are basically stalling for the results of the elections. The Greeks had every right more than 4 years ago to drag HDW to court over the numerous problems with both the new 214's and the upgraded 209's (AIP). Now HDW wants to get paid whatever remainder exists even though no submarines have been accepted because the contracts need to be amended.
How can HDW publically want to sell the Papnickolis, while it has not amended the contract with the Greeks? How can they try selling it when they are still currently trying to collect money from the Greeks for all 4 214's? The contract obviously needs to be renegotiated, which now will likely happen through arbitration. The same applies to the 209 upgrade contract where HDW wants to build 209-1400AIP subs in place of upgrading the 2 remaining 209's stipulated in the contract.
Good for the Greeks for sticking to the contracts and demanding new ones when HDW wishes to change the rules. It is obvious from the actions of HDW that they will lose in court.
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I'm working with a German company now and they're the biggest bunch of whiners and excuse makers I've ever met. And vacations! Everyone wants to take a 3 week holiday at the most critical time in the program-naturally we have a lot of quality defects because of it.
The German 'work ethic' no longer exists. All they want to do is the minimum necessary, then get out of the office as soon as possible and NOTHING gets in the way of their holidays. Absolutely nothing!
I haven't had an unbroken weeks vacation in the 2 years I've been involved in this program. Inevitably I'm doing conference calls and emergency meetings every day because this company is a phuck-up and doesn't know what they're doing. But they don't let that stop them, from the top guy down to the line worker!
I have no trouble understanding why Greece would have issues with Thyssenkrupp. I'd buy Japanese or Korean from now on, not German ships. Truly.
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"the submarine worked within its parameters and even better"
That's a bald faced lie. The first sub was a complete disaster. It didn't met spec, not even close.
Time to tell Hans to stick it up his ass, until he MEETS THE SPECS as written. You'll not bully Greece into accepting second-rate chit. Those days are over with, Meine Fuerher!
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"the submarine worked within its parameters and even better"
That's a bald faced lie. The first sub was a complete disaster. It didn't met spec, not even close.
Time to tell Hans to stick it up his ass, until he MEETS THE SPECS as written. You'll not bully Greece into accepting second-rate chit. Those days are over with, Meine Fuerher!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, it's not a lie, the issues Greece had were fixed a few years ago, but decided not to accept it anyways, nor the other 3.
It became quite clear that the Greek MoD wanted to renegotiate the contract for a much lower price.
By making the issues public, Greece was hoping that Thyssenkrupp would be willing to do that due to potential damage to it's reputation.
It didn't work, no one else is having any of the problems with their subs that Greece reported.
After the first sub was completely checked out, Greece still did not accept it, claiming that there was now wear and tear, unless the price for all four was renegotiated, and we all know why Greece wanted to renegotiate the price, she is flat out broke, and that is what this is all about.
Here is Greece without the New 214's, but not only will Greece not get News subs, but the older 209's will most like not get upgraded to "Neptune 2". Greece will find it self without a submarine force.
If it were up to me, I would not waste another day dealing with Greece, I would tell them to go to Russia, and see if they can spare a few Kilo class boats, I'm sure they are much better.
P.S. Landos, I'm not going to lower my self to your childish level with the lame ass Nazi and other crap, try growing up!
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Just meet the spec. The Japanese do it and don't complain, the Koreans and the Chinese as well. The germans bich and whine. What happened to you?
Meet the specs, it's as easy as that. Nobody can argue with you if you do. Anything less isn't going to get the job done.
I have to go in an listen to my German suppliers latest phuck up tomorrow, I'm not in an understanding mood. Maybe if they spent the summer focussed on the program instead of taking 3 week holidays in Malta things wouldn't have gone array?
Meet the specs, you know?
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"If it were up to me, I would not waste another day dealing with Greece, I would tell them to go to Russia"
If I were Greece I'd tell Thyssen to stick it up their ass. Then I'd go buy submarines from the Japanese who have better fuel cell technology anyway. And in Japan customer is king, unlike in western Europe.
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If I were Greece I'd tell Thyssen to stick it up their ass. Then I'd go buy submarines from the Japanese who have better fuel cell technology anyway. And in Japan customer is king, unlike in western Europe.
___________________________________________________________________________
Im pretty sure that even Germans would threat Greeks like kings if Greeks payed for what they ordered
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Greeks pay for weapons systems that work as specified. If Thyseen doesn't like the contract terms they shouldn't have signed them. Too bad, so sad.
Too many years of Germany coming to bat for German firms and strong-arming small nations. That chit don't fly anymore, you're not the only game in town.
Thyssen can take the subs and make artificial reefs out of them. That's all the first one is good for anyway.
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"After the first sub was completely checked out, Greece still did not accept it, claiming that there was now wear and tear"
The first sub was a complete disaster, rolled and pitched like a Soho whore. You want Greeks to accept THAT?
When we pay top dollar for weapon systems we expect them to work as specified. Not sort of, not kind of, not with lots of last minute rework. If it doesn't, the contract needs to be renegotiated.
That's the way it is in the business world. You play the game by the rules or you don't play.
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"Greeks pay for weapons systems that work as specified. If Thyseen doesn't like the contract terms they shouldn't have signed them. Too bad, so sad. "
Thats simply not true. The Submarine works perfectly. So do the other 3(wich are also not paid) and the Tanks(wich are not paid for either) Greece has to pay it according to the contract... they run after their money for 5 years now. Enough is enough. That's why they decided to go to court.
Even greek officials say that the sub works as specified and even better... their last argument was that they could not take the submarine for "psychological" reasons... lol how paethic is this?!?
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What is certainly pathethic is your refusal to admit that the German company was wrong in the first place that that this constitue a breach of contract.
Two more things, making comments repeatedly without ever bringing the smallest evidence of what you allege is also pathethic, and your sig looks oversized to me as well.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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"
What is certainly pathethic is your refusal to admit that the German company was wrong in the first place that that this constitue a breach of contract. "
the company acceptes SOME of thew claimes and fixed them 3 YEARS AGO
are you unable to read or understand
fact is that the submarine worls perfectly now(along with the other 3 of its class) and still is not paid for
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"What is certainly pathethic is your refusal to admit that the German company was wrong in the first place that that this constitue a breach of contract. "
Typical. Germans make excuses, not results. I know, I work with them.
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ATHENS, Greece -- ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems has canceled two submarine construction and upgrade programs with the Greek Navy over euro524 million ($774 million) in outstanding payments.
The German shipbuilder says it intends to file for arbitration against the Greek state, which refused to accept delivery of the first new submarine, citing poor performance.
But a Greek defense ministry official on Tuesday insisted that the Class U214 submarine was faulty, and said Greece would "defend the public interest" in the arbitration process.
The official said the German company "has already received more than euro2 billion ($2.96 billion) - about 80 percent of the contract - and we could not continue paying for something we have not received."
"The first submarine listed," he said, on customary condition of anonymity.
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems said Monday the vessel "met and in some cases clearly exceeded all specified performance requirements." It said all four submarines have now been completed.
The programs to build four and upgrade three subs were being carried out by the company's Howaldswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH shipyard in Kiel, and Hellenic Shipyards in Skaramangas near Athens.
I don't know why you selectively ignore statements that answer your points.
"It became quite clear that the Greek MoD wanted to renegotiate the contract for a much lower price."
What was clear was that HDW had breached both contracts because of delays and technical issues. The first 214 was not delivered on time due to issues that HDW eventually confirmed as existing, and then attempting to correct. Due to this rather lengthy delay (over 3 years) obviously there needed to be a renegotiation. What exactly do you see wrong with that?
As far as the 209 AIP upgrade, it was HDW that wanted to provide newly built 209's instead of upgrading the 2 remaining older ones. Obviously that also needs another contract renegotiation. All these things are expected in any business environment.
"By making the issues public, Greece was hoping that Thyssenkrupp would be willing to do that due to potential damage to it's reputation."
It was the Germans that were making public complaints about not getting paid, and then laying off shipyard workers to force the Greek government into paying. Then, they started other "pressure" tactics like publically stating that they would sell the first (Greek) 214 sub. That is CLEARLY a breach of contract. How can you demand payment (for all 4 subs, the remaining 20%) when you're looking to actually sell one of them?
Another tit-for-tat reaction due to poor business decisions by the Germans. Perhaps they were used to dealing with politicians they could bribe through Siemens.
"It didn't work, no one else is having any of the problems with their subs that Greece reported."
The Koreans had problems, which HDW PROMPTLY addressed. In the case of the Greeks subs they were denying that there were any issues for about 2 years before they got their act together and addressed them.
"After the first sub was completely checked out, Greece still did not accept it, claiming that there was now wear and tear, unless the price for all four was renegotiated, and we all know why Greece wanted to renegotiate the price, she is flat out broke, and that is what this is all about."
If you purchased a new car, but the dealer had to put 50,000km on it to fix problems, and then was offering it to you 3 years later, would you expect to pay the same price? Use some common sense. The subs had significant issues that HDW and BWB confirm, and that were addressed. The Greeks are/were willing to pay full price (as per contract) for the 3 214's but rightfully needed some compensation for the first one.
Don't be surprised when arbitration will result in a German loss on the matter (if they don't resolve it themselves quickly).
Here is Greece without the New 214's, but not only will Greece not get News subs, but the older 209's will most like not get upgraded to "Neptune 2". Greece will find it self without a submarine force.
The upgrade of the 209's has been PAID. Once again HDW was blackmailing the Greek state by linking one contract with the other. Furthermore, they wanted to build new 209's instead of upgrading (for financial reasons) but have not proceeded to draft a new CONTRACT.
If it were up to me, I would not waste another day dealing with Greece, I would tell them to go to Russia, and see if they can spare a few Kilo class boats, I'm sure they are much better.
Good thing you're not the German government! The Greeks have paid for the Leopards (in full, the issues with the cracks is part of the warranty), the PzH's, ammunition, and everything else from recent purchases. They've also paid 80% of the U214's and about 90% of the U209 upgrades. Money is not the issue.
Also, I believe over 80% has been paid for the NH-90's, and you should likely expect the Greek state to demand the money back.
Perhaps the Turdgays will get (some of) their money back for the A400 as well. That's what happens when you have significant delays and technical issues with weapon systems. Don't blame the customer for demanding what he paid for.
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Do you know what the contract states as far as delivery date for the first submarine? The Germans have been in breach of the contract for many years.
Furthermore, the 209AIP/NeptuneII program has been used to blackmail the Greek state. What is the excuse for not proceeding with the other 2 sub upgrades, or drafting a new contract for the building of new 209AIP's?
There are NO EXCUSES for these MASSIVE delays on the part of HDW. You can't be 2-3-4 years behind schedule and not expect to pay fines to the customer.
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the submarines have not been delivered due to outstanding payments, thats why they have not been delivered
and as long as tkms wont reach a deal with the greek goverment they will not deliver the rest of them, greek goverment had the advantage that hdw did sit on finished submarines so they have been in a stron position but hdw did resist the pressure and now saw the last possibility via court
as being said the paa is ready since 2004 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and made various journeys arround the world to promote the submarine type
it would be cool if the german navy would take these 4 subs for the outstanding payments of 700mln euros, that would be just fair
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You're failing to answer the arguments raised and rehashing your position with no additional reasoning.
the submarines have not been delivered due to outstanding payments, thats why they have not been delivered
When 80% and 90% of the contract values has been paid while no sub has been accepted, you're entire statement is patently FALSE.
Why has the 209AIP upgrade been halted after the first sub? If the Germans want to build new subs instead of upgrading the remaining 2, where is the formal request to amend the contract?
and as long as tkms wont reach a deal with the greek goverment they will not deliver the rest of them
They have already delivered the subs, it is the Greeks that are not accepting them. And obviously they cannot accept any if there is no amendment to the original contract (regarding the first sub for all the reasons I already mentioned). What does that have to do with the 209AIP upgrade contract where TKMS/HDW is clearly breaching the contract?
greek goverment had the advantage that hdw did sit on finished submarines so they have been in a stron position but hdw did resist the pressure and now saw the last possibility via court
Where do you see the Greek govt advantage? They have paid over 80% of the contract value and received NOTHING.
as being said the paa is ready since 2004 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and made various journeys arround the world to promote the submarine type
The first sub was inspected by the BWB to confirm the fixes the HDW performed in late 2008. So you are dead wrong about the boat being ready since 2004. What you should say is that since 2004 HDW was ignoring the problems reported, and finally fixed everything in 2008 (4 years later). Well, 4 years late (with numerous cuts and changes to the structure) should come with a significant discount.
it would be cool if the german navy would take these 4 subs for the outstanding payments of 700mln euros, that would be just fair
They can sure try (in fact, they have tried by publically seeking to sell even one of them). Obviously another breach of contract which they will have to pay dearly. The Greek government will easily win this case in arbitration or court, so all these are just theatrics by the German side just before national elections in Greece.
I doubt a new government will change policy on this matter, especially regarding a now 5-year old boat.
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When a Greek company doesn't fulfill contract does it run to the Greek government to whine and cry and demand help? Do Greek citizens weigh in and try to defend their lack of performance?
German companies are the biggest whiners I've ever worked with, and I've worked with companies all over the world. They don't perform to agreements, then expect consideration for their continual failures when they happen.
They almost NEVER meet a deadline. German companies are notorious for not meeting deadlines. German company I'm working with now has just missed their 7th deadline in this program (and it was their last chance to meet a dealine, program is nearing completion).
Japanese companies HATE working with Germans and avoid it whenever possible. For one thing Germans steal ideas like nobody else-that doesn't come from me, it comes from my numerous Japanese business contacts. They admit they'd 10 times rather work with Americans than Germans because Americans honor a contract. Germans don't. And German companies will steal an idea, slightly modify it and then take it to market as their own. Then you're battling in German courts over copyright violations.
As for these subs the Germans had to meet the Requirements by the deadline on the contract. They didn't. Not maybe, not possibly, not perhaps, they didn't meet the technical requirements in the alloted time. Further, they stalled when Greek Navy pointed out technical defects. Instead of FIXING THEM immediately they tried to bully Greece into accepting the vessels as is. Homi don't play dat game, Fritz!
You can bich and whine all you want. Take it to the EU courts for contract discussion, they'll throw Thyssen out the door on their arse and the Germans know it. That's why after all the whining and posturing Thyssen will have to negotiate a new contract to Greek demands.
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"................Once the Papanikolis sea trials began in 2006, however, the Hellenic Navy found a host of issues with the new submarine. Poor performance from the AIP system that supplements its diesel engines for long underwater operations, problems with the ISUS combat system, poor surface seakeeping in high seas, and hydraulic system issues were among the major flaws reported. The Navy refused acceptance, leaving HDW to fix the boat.
HDW set to work on Papanikolis, but the submarine has been docked in Kiel since 2006 waiting for Greek acceptance. HDW says acceptance is now justified, as the defects have been fixed, but the Greek government refuses to accept the boat. It has raised other issues, such as the ad-hoc nature of several required modifications to avoid disassembling the boat, the number of sea trials that have consumed some of the onboard equipments operational life................"
"..the ad-hoc nature of several required modifications to avoid disassembling the boat"
"we don't want to take the boat apart and fix it... it's too much work and it's not a sub that will be defending OUR shores, so who gives a flying f$ck?"
?
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"Only thing I'm gonna say to Greece is, don't bite the hand that feeds you. "
Oh, so that's the way it goes? Greece is on the receiving end of some EU funds so we have to accept German military crap that doesn't meet the specifications?
PHUCH THAT concept! The big natons in Europe have been bullying small nations like this for centuries. Germany stole all the gold bullion in the Greek Central Bank in WW2, trashing the Drachma and setting us up for the Civil War that followed WW2. It's no exagerration to say Greece's terrible economic woes in the 1940's and 1950's were the fault of German! They put us behind by decades.
1 out of 10 people in Greece died from starvation or illness during WW2. My real estate lady told me German soldiers threw food away but refused to share it with the local Greek population-she was there as a child, she saw it.
Germans need to stop WHINING and start fullfilling the contract-like Japanse, Chinese and Koreans do. Stop looking for special treatment.
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1 out of 10 people in Greece died from starvation or illness during WW2. My real estate lady told me German soldiers threw food away but refused to share it with the local Greek population-she was there as a child, she saw it.
Have all your arguments been rebuffed that you now claim that:
"You have to pay 100%. That's the point."?!
The CONTRACT did not stipulate 100% payment prior to the receipt of the submarines (both 214's and 209's). The 214's have been paid to a greater extent than required for the vessels currently in service (currently zero). The 209's have had all payments made, but HDW is not completing the work or amending the CONTRACT, which is another BREACH.
It sounds to me like you're coming up with excuses along the way, just like HDW did/does. The first 214 was accepted by the BWB less than 1 YEAR AGO (Oct. 2008). How many years behind schedule is that? How much wear and tear is on that vessel? Again, instead of supporting the obvious (discount on just this first boat) you're taking an irrational position.
The same is obviously the case (and to a greater extent) for the 209 AIP upgrade program. There the German position simply has no excuses. They have been paid and are not conducting work (breach of contract), and have not made a serious effort to amend the contract for their own financial gain.
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Greece should sue ThyssenKrupp for breach of contract and embezzlement of funds without providing a service. Take it to an EU court and let them decide. My suspicion is TK will come running to the negotiating table like a bich in heat once the Greeks threaten to make it a legal matter. TK knows they're in the wrong.
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if there were mo problems with the subs as the germans claim then can you tell me WHY
HDW had to cut apart the sub,exdend it,add weight to it,re arrange the ballast and re fitt its
computer systems?
and yes this is the realreason for HDW missing its deadlines,repeatedlyand not for funding reasons.
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![[linked image]](http://www.life123.com/bm.pix/greek-independence-day.s600x600.jpg)
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So dont expect from Greece to have serious weapon industry, and offcource the type 214s have no problems, (Koreans says that are perfect SSNs)but the only problem is that we have no goverment, and our future will be darker.![[linked image]](http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3028/7bd79eddd498944cab88b14.jpg)
![[linked image]](http://www.sammler.com/militaria/images/eisernes-kreuz-I-1914.jpg)
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now a little more money pweasse