Takeeasy and relax.The govern of the retarded LULA only will decide what to buy in ouctober if they will decide something or back to Tucanos and stones.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....................
Fu@#ck Lula and every son of bi#$th these corrupt govern.
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Even if we sold 3 to the UK for static testing (and 1 to Netherlands), that's still 4 more exports than Rafale has LOL.
The main goal of the F-35 is to reach THOUSANDS of sells, now you have 4 while Rafale is already above 100
According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis.
Thaks god, I asked an OFFICAL source, and not a so biaised article that it's not even funny to answer.
Rafale has been accused of being hampered by an old fashioned and 'cumbersome' Man Machine Interface
Even Brazilian defense officials were infuriated with Lula's decision to go with Rafale
WRONG, they were furious because Lula "humiliate" them by giving an official stamp on the Rafale offer.
Sorry but, i don't think there's any country in the world dumb enough to fall for it.
Could you explain me why Korea ranked the Rafale ahead ?
If Rafale was such a flawless fighter and so much bang for the buck, wouldn't you think it would at least mirror half the success of the Mirage? Not quite, as there are more and better options available.
Because it's much more expensive than a mirage 2000 obviously.
This message has been edited by jesse04 on Sep 22, 2009 8:03 PM
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The main goal of the F-35 is to reach THOUSANDS of sells, now you have 4 while Rafale is already above 100
---
Above 100? You're including French orders?
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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Obviously you're starting to panic now that Boeing are offering local final assembly and Gripen have slashed their prices.
Well, the gripen was already cheaper, but Brazil is looking for a cheap plane, but a real package ... that Boing can try to achieve if they can offer ToT for nuclear submarine.
If the US want to snuff out little Dassault like they achieved with Morocco then I'd kiss goodbye now.
France perfectly kick itself out from Marocco.
Damn, such a recent event that you don't know anything about ??
Rafale is just a minor irritation to LM and Boeing, a fly on a giants arse!
But better than LM or Boeing offer of now
Above 100? You're including French orders?
About the F-35 and the "economy of scale" we are talking of the GLOBAL production.
This message has been edited by jesse04 on Sep 22, 2009 8:16 PM
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The main goal of the F-35 is to reach THOUSANDS of sells, now you have 4 while Rafale is already above 100
Looks like we have another French poster who can't read English. We're talking exports here, and Rafale is still at 0.
Thaks god, I asked an OFFICAL source, and not a so biaised article that it's not even funny to answer.
Defense Analysis and Flight International are biased? Why? Because they reported the Rafale failing to demonstrate supercruise? Omni Role was half-assed and Singapore not impressed? Try your luck elsewhere. Oh that's right you tried in Korea and Morocco, with same results. And now Brazil has to re-extend the competition because their president failed to listen to his own military officials.
WRONG, they were furious because Lula "humiliate" them by giving an official stamp on the Rafale offer.
You obviously haven't been reading the updates on it and been paying attention to Thunder, your master, way too much. You're starting to become as ignorant and clueless as him about matters by the day. I'll do you a favor and post some quotes from an earlier thread;
"I think our president got a bit ahead of himself," said one Brazilian military analyst, Alvaro Pinheiro.
"The problem is that the final report (by the air force) was to be submitted at the end of October," he said.
"The military is complaining that this leaves it little room to negotiate the two contracts: the aviation system (the jets) and the weapons systems (missiles and bombs)," he said.
Not to mention, the Gripen looks to be among the favorites of a recent poll (thanks to signatory). Of course it shouldn't be taken into 'serious' consideration since it is based only on 3000 people. But it gives you an idea;
Gripen: 37.20%
Rafale: 29.03%
F/A-18: 16.31%
No one: 17.47%
"F-35 supposedly costs more than Rafale, so can you tell me why countries still plan on getting it?"
Because they were CONED in to thinking it was much cheaper and attracted by the prospects of commercial and industrial benefits, the usual US packagefrom the F-16 era, total bulls.
If F-35 real cost had been known, Rafale would have won the Dutch competition hands up.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
BRASILIA --- At the request of Mr Eduardo Gomes (PSDB-TO), the Committee on Science and Technology of the House of Representatives yesterday approved the convening of representatives of the three companies competing in the Air Forces FX-2 program.
France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and Boeing will be questioned on the package of technology transfer and other details of their offers for the proposed sale of 36 fighter aircraft to Brazil from 2014.
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 23, 2009 3:27 AM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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September 23 2009, 3:49 AM
Sorry about that....
I missed it while skimming past multiple rants.
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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If the Netherlands would order Dassault Aviation Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoons, it would have to pay up to 207 million euros ($327 million) per Rafale aircraft, and at least 112.5 million euros ($178 million) per Typhoon aircraft, the country's defense ministry has communicated to the Parliament in The Hague.
The Dutch would never buy a French aircraft idiot..They would rather wait few years longer and buy a 5'th generation fighter instead of paying outrageous amount of money for an outclassed,outdated, overpriced junk.
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Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this but a barking mad troll like you still think he looks smart pointing this one out.
You really have a problem with some part of you smaller than you'd like.
Quote: The WAFF most obvious brainfader...
"Buulshiiit MORON...On the contrary ,the Dutch knew exactly what RAFALE would cost to them"
SURE and the programe like the costs are kept withing targets goals below 4% inflation but of course you can't even READ english since the cost of F-35 wasn't known.
SO AGAIN:
If the Dutch had known the real cost of F-35, Rafale would have WON the competition hands up.
= "Il est plus que surprenant de constater que les Pays-Bas ont retenu cet appareil au terme dune étude approfondie portant sur 700 critères. Le Rafale a obtenu 695 points, arrivant en deuxième place, le JSF ayant obtenu 697 points. Il convient pourtant de noter que malgré ce résultat, aucune indication de prix na été fournie pour le JSF !"
ASSEMBLÉE NATIONALE
CONSTITUTION DU 4 OCTOBRE 1958
TREIZIÈME LÉGISLATURE
Enregistré à la Présidence de lAssemblée nationale le 8 avril 2009.
RAPPORT
FAIT
AU NOM DE LA COMMISSION DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES FORCES ARMÉES
SUR LE PROJET DE LOI (n° 1216) relatif à la programmation militaire
pour les années 2009 à 2014
et portant diverses dispositions concernant la défense
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/pdf/rapports/r1615-t2.pdf
READ.
Dutch Competition: JSF cost UNANOUNCED.
700 points on all criterias.
JSF = 697 points.
Rafale = 695 points.
JSF programe and unit cost are gone through the roof since, that of Rafale's are maintained within 4% after negotiations for 294 aircrafts 8 April 2009..
= "En France, comme létablissait lavis budgétaire pour larmée de lair de M. Jean-Louis Bernard, le dérapage financier du programme Rafale, au niveau de la deuxième tranche, nexcédait pas 4 % du coût total qui comprend le développement, lindustrialisation et les coûts de production jusquau 294e appareil"
A\RESULT: NO CUT IN THE RAFALE PROGRAME...
Now do us your usual stoopid and reality denial thing please...
PS Rafale EATS F-15 for breakfast in A2A as does the Mirage 2000-5F, ask the USAFE exchange pilots for a laugh...
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 23, 2009 12:27 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 23, 2009 12:18 PM
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Hey, guys! Could we spare the name calling? For example when Leopardus calls Thunder an " uneducated idiot "
for making a mistake in an english phrase, no matter how well known it might be!
For all we know, Leopardus is an anglophone and could be unilingual, ridiculous though that would be!
I have seen Thunder responding likewise so i am just talking to all of us and for all of us.
This message has been edited by 1RCHMDL84 on Sep 23, 2009 7:40 PM
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Looks like we have another French poster who can't read English. We're talking exports here, and Rafale is still at 0.
No, we were talkign about the HUUUUUGE aconomy of scale from the TOTAL PRODUCTION of THOUSANNNNNNNDS of plane and I point that for now, the Rafale is waayyyyyy above the f-35.
Defense Analysis and Flight International are biased?
That source is totally biaisad, other planes don't even have that "problem" page for instance.
Why? Because they reported the Rafale failing to demonstrate supercruise?
Say who ?
Omni Role was half-assed and Singapore not impressed? Try your luck elsewhere
In Korea for isntance ?
You obviously haven't been reading the updates on it and been paying attention to Thunder, your master, way too much. You're starting to become as ignorant and clueless as him about matters by the day. I'll do you a favor and post some quotes from an earlier thread;
Show me the update then
"The problem is that the final report (by the air force) was to be submitted at the end of October," he said.
But the final word belong to the president, end of the story.
"The military is complaining that this leaves it little room to negotiate the two contracts: the aviation system (the jets) and the weapons systems (missiles and bombs)," he said.
The conclusion of the contract don't belong to the military but to the governement?
Not to mention, the Gripen looks to be among the favorites of a recent poll (thanks to signatory). Of course it shouldn't be taken into 'serious' consideration since it is based only on 3000 people. But it gives you an idea;
No one: 17.47%
on 3000 votes
Just like Rafale was in front of the F-15 into korean newspapers, but these people can't choose anything in fact.
Could you explain to me why it still LOST in Korea?
Because the ranking is of technical matter and the deal is signed by political hands.
So, I thought that on such forum we are mostly technical drive which seems to NOT be your case.
So, I remind you that easy to understand brazilian point of view "We want to buy 36 Rafale"
Obviously, that hurt you somewhere, I don't understand why.
The (literral) HATE, mostly from american posters, on the Airbus A380 (but that disseapered since then) is still very active on the Rafale, weird.
F-35 supposedly costs more than Rafale, so can you tell me why countries still plan on getting it?
How much did we say ? 4 sales
Anyway, the point, as I said is that the higher you go with price, the higher it's only a question of POLTICAL aspects.
And as everyone said, USA has (had) such weight, it's not so easy for France.
Buulshiiit MORON...On the contrary ,the Dutch knew exactly what RAFALE would cost to them ..
http://forum.milavia.net/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1356.0
If the Netherlands would order Dassault Aviation Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoons, it would have to pay up to 207 million euros ($327 million) per Rafale aircraft, and at least 112.5 million euros ($178 million) per Typhoon aircraft, the country's defense ministry has communicated to the Parliament in The Hague.
An idiot like Leopardus is always happy with any figures as long as they fit his wishes even they don't sound real a single second
Koreans needed a fighter capable of delivering huge loads over a very long distance and come back safely ..F-15E strike Eagle is superior to RAFALE ..
They ranked it FIRST
FIRST
FIRST
The payload/range of the Rafale is already excellent, much more than Korean needed.
But the political aspect wasn't North Korea
This message has been edited by jesse04 on Sep 23, 2009 7:17 PM This message has been edited by jesse04 on Sep 23, 2009 7:16 PM
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"always happy with any figures as long as they fit his wishes even they don't sound real a single second"
Precisely, and still failing to show the cost of F-35 programe at the time.
AGAIN:
Had the real cost of F-35 been known, Rafale would have won the Dutch competition hands up, and more to it, since the programe turned up to be the most expensive in the history of modern aviation, it is unlikely that the "partner Nations" would have accepted to pay its developement at 75%.
Give half the money to Dassault-Aviation and Thales they would do better and in schedule.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Quote:
The battle for the 36 fighters that is about to buy Brazil has led to an escalation media last week as and as the date for submission of final bids. Today is indeed that LEGIE Rafale (Dassault, Thales and Snecma), Boeing and Saab should get their copy, then letting the government and the Air Force Brazilian finalize their decision in private. While Boeing has promised 5,000 jobs in Brazil if the F18 was selected, its Swedish rival was prepared to cut prices of its Gripen new generation. In the French camp, however, low profile: Given the public preference shown by President Lula, the probability that the Rafale lose its pole position appears very low. Under these conditions, no need to add more.
While remaining cautious, because the competition is obviously not said its last word, in Paris, it reiterates that France is for the fighters in the position it held last December 23 for the submarine: an agreement in principle was announced at the highest level of the Brazilian state, with the key, a letter signed by Nicolas Sarkozy is to insure customer requirements. It remains to conclude the negotiations for a contract estimated at approximately 5 billion euros, including weapons.
Negotiations
"There are actually from the government an option for France. Just as France meets its commitment to unrestricted transfer of technology and prices equivalent to those paid by the French armed forces, "said Nelson Jobim, Minister of Defense, during a hearing Wednesday at the Brazilian Senate . But for confirmation de facto preference given to Gust turns into ad "de jure", it will take a month. It is October 23, to mark the 104 anniversary of the flight of Santos-Dumont celebration National Aviation, which should be announced the winner of the competition. Negotiations with the Rafale can then start officially. In the UAE, other countries targeted for the Rafale, the procedure for OTC sale of sixty aircraft entered its final stretch. After having fixed the technical configuration, the two parties discussed the cost of airplanes. An agreement is still expected by the end of
year.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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September 24 2009, 4:05 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the flyaway cost of the F-35's has been DECREASING vs projected cost for the last two years.
LRIP 2 was 3.3% cheaper than the computer models predicted
LRIP 3 was 5% cheaper than the computer models predicted
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
This message has been edited by sampaix on Sep 24, 2009 4:35 PM
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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September 24 2009, 4:46 PM
No, my data comes from the source.
Lockheed Martin Expects Unit Cost of F-35 to Reduce Reprinted from Janes Defense Weekly
The unit price of Lockheed Martins F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike
Fighter aircraft is coming in under projected costs, according to
the U.S. project office. Speaking at the Avalon 2009 airshow in
Australia, Maj. Gen. David Heinz, US MC, deputy program executive
officer, Joint Strike Fighter, said on March 10, "Our costs
are falling against cost models and I have better confidence
that countries will be able to buy the number of aircraft planned
within projected budgets."
"We are looking at a 3.3 percent reduction on low-rate initial
production Lot 2 compared to models and five percent on lowrate
initial production Lot 3 compared to models. We would
expect the learning curve which occurs during the production
process to also reduce costs."
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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September 25 2009, 5:55 PM
It is the same computer models that place the average F-35A Flyaway cost (over the project lifetime) at the "Upper $40 million in 2002 dollars" mark.
You may not like facts, but they are still facts. LM, for the last two LRIP cycles, has been able to come under cost predictions by 3.3% and 5%. This gives credence to the computer model and makes their future price claims more likely.
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= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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September 25 2009, 11:37 PM
That 30% increase was NOT the flyaway cost, but the total program aquisition cost. The largest chunk of the increase is the development costs involved in the 2+ year SWAT related delay. Those are already paid and are not passed along to future purchases.
IIRC, the flyaway cost predictions have not increased by 30%.
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Embraer, Brazilian Minister Spar on Tech Transfer in F-X2 Fighter Deal
(Sep 30)
Embraer Favors the Purchase of Swedish Fighters
(Source: Valor Online; published Sept. 28, 2009)
(Published in Portuguese; unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)
SAO JOSE DOS CAMPOS, Brazil --- Embraer considers the Swedish Gripen fighter's technology transfer package the best option for the company to establish a strategic partnership in the context of the F-X2 fighter competition. The contract provides for the purchase of 36 fighter aircraft, worth U.S. $ 2 billion, and is also disputed by Dassault Aviation, with the Rafale, and by Boeing, with the F-18E/F Super Hornet.
"We evaluated the three proposals at the request of the Brazilian Air Force, and we concluded that the offer submitted by the Swedish company Saab will best ensure that Brazil obtains the know-how and the technology to learn on the job said Embraers Deputy Chief Executive for the defense market, Orlando José Ferreira Neto.
He says that the Gripen NG, a more advanced version of the Gripen C / D which has not yet entered production, is the only competitor that offers the opportunity for Brazil to begin developing a fighter from scratch, or almost. "We are not interested in producing parts. We seek to learn what we dont yet know, and that will be useful for us in the development of future aircraft."
Ferreira Netos opinion is shared by most of the companies that make up the aerospace supply chain in Sao Jose dos Campos. "We will evolve from a group of small businesses dependent on Embraer to a vertically-integrated group capable of providing integrated, complex aerostructures, not only to Embraer but also to the foreign market, said César Augusto da Silva, chief executive of Akaer.
Akaer is part of the T-1 Holding, which comprises five Brazilian companies involved in the Swedish Gripen bid, and which would be responsible for the design and production of the fuselage, rear fuselage and wings in case Brazil bought the Swedish fighter. The Gripens fuselage, according to Da Silva, is more complex than anything yet made in Brazil, as it involves high-tech systems such as latest-generation alloys and advanced materials like composites. "The price we pay for the fighters will be returned to Brazilian companies in the form of jobs and new technologies." In five years, according to Da Silva, T-1 estimates it will be able to export $ 500 million worth of aerospace goods, and create 2900 direct jobs in Brazil.
For Embraer, the F-X2 advanced fighter program will also bring technological benefits. "We are interested in the technologies involved in a supersonic flight and the use of advanced materials to face the new challenges they pose to aircraft manufacturers," said Ferreira Neto.
The technology of next-generation fighter radar, according to Ferreira Neto, could also be used in civil aviation. Another area of know-how is the system that optimizes fuel consumption. "The F-X2 program can bring valuable know-how and knowledge for research and development, which will find applications for example in the KC-390 transport aircraft we are developing for the Brazilian air force.
The capacity of the domestic industry, according to Ferreira Neto, is essential to ensure the country's capability in future to make changes and modifications in the aircraft that Brazil will acquire, and to build a new fighter. "The proposed transfer of technology must be based on that tripod: autonomy, capacity-building of national industry and preparation for new challenges."
The proposal of the French Rafale and the American F-18, according to the Embraer executive, is to supply ready-made aircraft, which limits the participation of Brazilian industry in development activities and in new technologies. (ends)
Embraer Will Not Decide Fighter Purchase, Jobim Says
(Source: Agência Brasil; published Sept. 28, 2009)
(Published in Portuguese; unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)
RIO DE JANEIRO --- Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said today (Sept. 28) that the review process of the aircraft that the Air Force will buy to modernize its fleet will not take into account the views of Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica ( Embraer). The company had signaled that the best option would be the Swedish proposal, which it says provides for greater transfer of technology.
"Embraer is not required to have an opinion on this subject. It is for the Brazilian government to decide, and Embraer is not part of the Brazilian government, "said Jobim, who participated this morning in Rio de Janeiro, the opening of the International Nuclear Conference.
The deadline for competitors to deliver their proposals was extended by the Air Force and ends next Friday, October 2.
The minister also repeated that the government's decision will not be influenced by the accident last Thursday involving two Rafale fighters. The aircraft fell in the Mediterranean Sea after colliding in mid-air during flight tests from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. The Rafale is competing for the Brazilian order with the Boeing F-18E/F Super Hornet and the Saab Gripen NG.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
Look at these and see the pattern in leopardus's flaming.
its obvious amerikunts posters are beings ignorants as to real cause of high sales quantitieds of amerikunts f-15, f-16 etc planes to its client stateds....
hint: politics
now my questions beings why former francos colonials like maroco never buyings franco planes like rafale?
===========================================
I am old Christiankiller
Sorry for offensive to our good religion christian brothers
I am not hating christians
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Eric (no, not that one) (Login SpudmanWP) Soldiers
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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September 30 2009, 10:44 PM
The procurement cost includes ALL costs related to the F-35 program except development. That means all spares, training, start-up costs, base-building, etc. This is not the "Flyaway" cost of the F-35.
One note that should put a nail in the increased JET estimations: The F-35 has come under budget two years in a row for it's flyaway cost.
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anglozionazikiller
now my questions beings why former francos colonials like maroco never buyings franco planes like rafale?
The Rafale had the edge in Marocco but we fvcked it up by the state's mismanagement and underestimation of Marocco-USA links.
Algeria doesn't buy much french weapons, probably for political reason and have procured some good SU30 MKA whose electronic is partly french (similar to the SU30 MKM)
Others are either too poor, either already protected by France or both.
This message has been edited by ultrarep on Sep 30, 2009 11:03 PM This message has been edited by ultrarep on Sep 30, 2009 11:03 PM
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"(Login Mantis214)
Congrats, now you can stop crying about us Koreans lol".
Just in case as apprently you still didn't noticed, we don't really care.
This argument is mainly used by the anti-French bashers "Rafale didn't win in Korea or there or there etc".
Rafale will sell on its own time, as quoted by some US specialists, it is a 4.5 generation fighter with 5th generation systems and as such positions itself vs F-35 much better than F-15 orF-16in terms of technologies and potential growth.
It's early days andthere is still plenty of (already fuinded) developement in the pipeline.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
Look at these and see the pattern in leopardus's flaming.
Congrats, now you can stop crying about us Koreans lol
Yep, quite funny.
In Korea, Dassault won the technical evaluation but because of politics reasons, Boeing get the deal.
In Brazil, it seems that SAAB will, again, won the techniocal evaluation, but this time, because of the same damn politics, Dassault should get it
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"In Brazil, it seems that SAAB will, again, won the techniocal evaluation".
As far as we know it is not the technical evaluation which is a better from SAAB but according to one source (Embraer), the technology transfert offer and tyhen again looking at the Dassault-Embraer ties one could easly suspect leverage from them to get MORE from Dassault.
Quiet a different issue, expecially because this SAAB aircraft is still largely undeveloped and that there is a lot more coming with the Rafale offer in terms of systems.
Think: OSF IT/NG and MWS.
>>>>>
DATE:13/09/09
SOURCE:Flight International
Closer political ties raise prospects for renewed alliance between Dassault and Embraer
By Stephen Trimble
Growing political ties between Brazil and France may possibly lead to the rebirth of an even more powerful Dassault/Embraer alliance stretching beyond even their common interests in business jets and combat aircraft.
A joint communiqué issued by presidents Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva of Brazil commit their governments to pursing closer links in the aerospace industry.
Brazil initially appeared to agree to buy 36 Dassault Rafale F3s for the FX-2 contract, but the country's defence minister later clarified that negotiations were continuing with all three bidders, including the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Saab Gripen.
Nevertheless, it was clear that da Silva's strongly favoured the Rafale proposal, as he praised the French government's promises on price and technology transfer.
Meanwhile, France agreed to buy 10-12 Embraer KC-390 tanker-transports, with Dassault and other French companies invited by the Brazilian government to participate in the development.
Details of these negotiations remain far from settled, but it is clear that the KC-390 agreement especially binds Embraer and Dassault together, reprising a previously strong partnership that had withered in recent years.
The possibility of a resurgent alliance raises new possibilities for collaboration in several market areas, from business jets to a next-generation narrowbody to Brazil's stated goal to eventually develop its own fifth-generation fighter.
"We are open to any co-operation that Embraer would like to propose," says Dassault, noting that no formal agreement has been signed between the rivals. "So far, there has been no proposal. Maybe during the FX-2 competition, it was probably a little too sensitive to go into those subjects. Once Rafale is selected, maybe there will be other opportunities of co-operation that open."
Embraer has been unavailable to comment.
Dassault and Embraer are not industrial strangers, despite their transatlantic distance. The French company has previously owned as much as 20% of Embraer's stock value. But that stake has been "considerably diluted" in recent years, Dassault says, to roughly stake today.
EQUAL PARTNERS
Yet, a Dassault and Embraer alliance would create a partnership of equals rarely matched in the aerospace industry. Similar in size and market strategy, the two companies have dominated several niche markets between them, including regional jets, business jets and combat aircraft.
Neither competes with the large commercial airliners of Airbus and Boeing, but Embraer is eyeing the opportunity to develop an alternative in the Airbus A320 and Boeing 737 class. A collaboration with Dassault, which abandoned the narrowbody market in the mid-1970s after the Mercure debacle, could add needed engineering and design skills to the project.
Such a partnership is "not totally crazy", says Richard Aboulafia, vice-president for the Teal Group consulting firm. "Anything that introduces critical mass and efficiency helps you launch new products. It's not inconceivable."
Aboulafia expects a more near-term opportunity for collaboration to exist within the business jet market, where the product line-ups of Dassault and Embraer have "almost no overlap".
The Embraer Lineage 1000 competes in the same market space as the Dassault Falcon 7X and the Embraer Legacy 600 fights the Dassault Falcon 2000 series for orders. However, Dassault has no peer against Embraer's hot-selling Phenom series of light and very light jets.
"A Dassault-Embraer business jet joint venture or even merger would be a huge change to that market," Aboulafia says.
FIFTH GENERATION
When Brazil released its request for proposals for the FX-2 contract last year, government officials spoke of seeking technology transfer that would allow the country to develop a fifth-generation fighter capability in the "medium term".
Dassault has a long history in developing fighters, having produced the Mirage and Rafale series. The company is also open to further collaboration with Brazilian industry on a fifth-generation fighter.
"If the Brazilian industry wants to get the capability to design and develop a fifth-generation aircraft that's up to them to take that decision," Dassault says. "[Dassault] may help them to reach that goal. That's very possible. For the time being we have not been asked specifically to co-operate on the design of a new combat aircraft."
Rebecca Barrett, a Latin American and Caribbean analyst for Forecast International, considers the design of future combat aircraft to be a natural follow-on project for a Dassault-Embraer partnership.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
Look at these and see the pattern in leopardus's flaming.
(Source: Gripen International; issued October 2, 2009)
Saab has today submitted an update on the proposal offering 36 Gripen Next Generation (NG) to the Brazilian Air Force. The offer consists of a cost-effective solution, a comprehensive Technology Transfer and a unique competitive partnership between Brazil and Sweden.
The updated proposal fulfils all the requirements stated by Brazil to develop, manufacture, operate, maintain and upgrade an independent multi-role fighter, together with an extensive industrial package with full transfer of technology. This will give Brazil the opportunity to be involved in the development as well as to include a significant number of Brazilian suppliers in Gripen NG aircraft.
The proposal was handed over to the Brazilian Air Force by Bengt Janér, Saab Campaign Director in Brazil and the Swedish Defence Attaché, Lieutenant Colonel Christer Olsson.
Present in Brazil is also Saab CEO, Mr Åke Svensson, State Secretary of Defence of Sweden, Mr Håkan Jevrell and Lieutenant General Mats Nilsson, director and Head of the department for Military Affairs.
This will be a perfect match built on complementing abilities and technological excellence. A commitment from Sweden to Brazil delivers independence and not dependence. The unique industrial offset package means a direct involvement for Brazilian companies in the development, production and maintenance of Gripen NG. This will create and maintain high technology work opportunities in Brazil, says Saab CEO Åke Svensson.
The updated proposal outlines its advantages for the Brazilian Air Force and Brazilian industry and includes:
**A comprehensive Technology Transfer
-- Full access to and complete involvement in the Gripen NG development programme.
-- Complete Technology Transfer through joint development of the Gripen NG, giving national autonomy and independence in the design, development, manufacture and through-life support of Gripen NG and future generation fighters.
-- Independence in terms of choice of weapons and systems integration.
-- Production in Brazil of up to 80% Gripen NG airframes.
-- Creation of a full Gripen NG assembly line in Brazil.
-- Full maintenance capability in Brazil for the Gripen NG engine.
**A unique competitive partnership
-- Brazil will have the sales lead for Gripen NG in Latin America with joint opportunities for the rest of the world.
-- Swedens commitment to take deliveries of Gripen NG aircraft in line with Brazilian time frames.
-- Swedens intention to evaluate the KC-390 transport aircraft for long term tactical air transport needs.
-- Saabs ambition to join the transport aircraft KC-390 development programme as a strategic partner, including support in international marketing.
-- A commitment from Saab to deliver over 175% of the total value in industrial co-operation to Brazilian industry.
-- Saab proposes to replace the Swedish Air Force fleet of SK 60/Saab 105 trainers with the Super Tucano.
**A cost-effective solution
-- A firm and highly competitive proposal for a long-term financing for the full FX-2 contract value from the Swedish Export Credit Corporation, a financial institution wholly owned by the Swedish Government.
-- Significantly lower acquisition, support and operating costs compared to the competition due to the optimised design, highly efficient manufacturing processes and ease of maintenance and support.
When entering operation, Gripen NG will be one of the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world utilizing the latest technology. Gripen NG is the next generation Gripen, an enhanced version of the well established multi-role fighter which has proven low acquisition, operation, and support costs. The Gripen NG programme covers development of avionics and all major sensors, including AESA radar. The aircraft will have increased thrust, increased payload, and extended range in excess of 4 000 km, whilst maintaining the lowest cost of ownership.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
Look at these and see the pattern in leobarkus's flaming.
BRASILIA --- In line with the schedule of the selection process of the new multi-role fighter aircraft for the Air Force (FAB), the Air Force Command announced that, through the F-X2 Project Management Group, (GPF-X2) , it obtained this Friday, October 2, the final deadline, proposed improvements to their offers from the participating companies: (in alphabetical order) Boeing (F-18E / F Super Hornet), Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and Saab (Gripen NG).
Upon receipt of this material, in addition to that which it has already obtained, the GPF-X2 and its evaluation team, made up of over 60 experts in various areas, will prepare the final report of the technical analysis of the competing aircraft, and its presentation Generals to members of the High Command of the Air Force.
Subsequently, the Air Force Command will transmit the report to the Ministry of Defense as a date which has not yet been determined.
The Command of the Air Force emphasized that the report's technical analysis remains guided by the valuation of the business, technical, operational, logistical, industrial, commercial compensation (Offset) and technology transfer.
= A pathological liar is someone who often embellishes his or her stories in a way that he or she believes will impress people.
= In psychology, mythomania (also known as pseudologia fantastica or pathological lying) is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation.
http://www.bushywood.com/mythomania.htm
Look at these and see the pattern in leobarkus's flaming.
Jobim reaffirms preference for Rafale fighter jets from France in competition FAB
No score for this post
October 6 2009, 7:29 PM
. Defense
Jobim reaffirms preference for Rafale fighter jets from France in competition FAB
Posted on 05/10/2009 at 22h25m
Reuters / Brazil Online
BUENOS AIRES - Brazil said on Monday that he is more inclined to the French company Dassault than the Swiss Saab and Boeing in contention for a contract for the purchase of fighter planes due to availability of unrestricted transfer of technology.
During a visit to Buenos Aires, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said the support of the Brazilian government to hunt French Rafale from Dassault, the contract for the delivery of 36 aircraft.
The Rafale is competing with the Saab Gripen NG and the F-18 Super Hornet from Boeing.
- The basic issue for the final decision is the national capacity. Brazil can not be bought weapons, Brazil wants to develop technologies - Jobim said during a news conference in the Argentine capital.
- The president (of France, Nicolas) Sarkozy said he would have an unrestricted transfer of technology, (while) the statement made by the United States is that would allow Boeing to do technology transfer needed - added.
Jobim said the selection process must go further analysis by technical and operational without undue delay and in another instance of the Government for final decision on the aircraft which will serve to modernize the fleet of Air Force (FAB).
The minister indicated that the previous U.S. technology transfer "were not good."
- It is clear that the commitment to technology transfer has to be absolutely necessary and not one who has to decide which is the technology we are and not another country.
On 7 September, President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva has indicated that the government has more sympathy in buying planes from France, although the competition had not yet been finalized. The government argued that Dassault has promised to transfer the technology full of equipment. After that, Boeing also said it would do the same, but gave no assurances that the transfer would take place without reservation. Already Saab said it would sell the equipment at half the price of competitors.
http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2009/10/05/jobim-reafirma-preferencia-pelos-cacas-rafale-da-franca-em-concorrencia-da-fab-767928786.asp#
Sunday, 11 October 2009 | Printable
Jobim reaffirms preference for Rafale
Minister however, expressed concern with the French Minister.
Pedro Fonseca Pedro Fonseca
Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, reaffirmed the preference of Brazil for the purchase of 36 French Rafale fighters.
"The preference is the president Lula, in view of our strategic partnership with France and claim President Nicolas Sarkozy on the unrestricted transfer of technology," he said.
He expressed, however, concern the Dassault, manufacturer of the game, will accept the Brazilian condition for purchase.
"The manufacturer is private and the actions of the French government are preferred non-voting. You must know whether the proposal of the Brazilian Air Force, which calls for an unrestricted transfer of technology will be adopted," said Jobim.
The concern of the minister has raised eyebrows.
In September, Admiral Edouard Guillaud, military chief of staff of the French president, was in Brasilia, in the company of Vice President of Dassault, to bring the security transfer of technology "track, without restriction and without limit."
MATCH
The last stage of bidding for the project called F-X2, with direct participation of companies competing for the sale of 36 high-tech fighters to Brazil, was closed earlier this month with the submission of final proposals, all amplified, the Air Force Command.
In the French Dassault, involving the U.S. Boeing, offering the F-18, and Sweden's Saab, with the Gripen NG.
All have significantly improved their offerings.
Dassault has been forced to reduce its price - both the cost of flight hours, considered very high by the Brazilian government, as the figure on the purchase price.
Saab has a counterpoint to the French competitor, who announced the purchase of a dozen KC-390 aircraft, the new military transport designed by Embraer.
Boeing has already increased the commitment to open and sensitive knowledge, the first time, cited a gem of American military engineering - the stealth technology, which gives the aircraft the ability to avoid detection by enemy radars and sensors.
For the true enthusiast, now enjoy the videos andthink that his is the Base Aerienne 102 at Dijon were i was based at 17, so i had fun and still have...
Sorry guys, I didn't read a single post in this topic, from part 1 to part 2. But although the Rafale was already choosen a year ago in Brazil, there's been a rumour here in Brasilia (Brazils capital) that the Air Force is now putting a bit of pressure on the Defence Ministry to accept the latest offer of the Gripen NG, which seems to be confirmed unofficialy by Juniti Saito, the brazilian air force commander.
If this is true, it might be a huge surprise here in Brazil and I'm curious to know what the swedes are offering better than the fantastic industrial partnership that WAS ALREADY SIGNED with france.
The Economist - "Brazil takes off"
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//Sorry guys, I didn't read a single post in this topic, from part 1 to part 2. But although the Rafale was already choosen a year ago in Brazil, there's been a rumour here in Brasilia (Brazils capital) that the Air Force is now putting a bit of pressure on the Defence Ministry to accept the latest offer of the Gripen NG, which seems to be confirmed unofficialy by Juniti Saito, the brazilian air force commander.
If this is true, it might be a huge surprise here in Brazil and I'm curious to know what the swedes are offering better than the fantastic industrial partnership that WAS ALREADY SIGNED with france.//
swedes has lost the first step of competiton because yankees refused to supply saab with the engines brazilians wanted. most probably saab got the permission now.
-----------------------------
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Posters question:
Mr Jon Lakoniko, (if all you said was TRUE):
Why would you feel the need to expend such disproportionate energy on every Rafale thread in the planet (including Airliners.net, MilitaryPhotos.net, PPrune and here), when you, unlike us, have the privilege of being able to express your views in industry publications?
Answer: Propaganda.
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OSF IT = Telemetric Identification, Longer distance but "Telemetry" as for distance finding?
The science and technology of automatic measurement and transmission of data by wire, radio, or other means from remote sources, as from space vehicles, to receiving stations for recording and analysis.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/telemetric
As for the DDMNG it is Optronic, giving an idea of the technology involved, possibly the same or an improved version of that designed for the A400M, a multi-colour sensor covering 360*X360*, infra-red and Optical similar to F-35 EODAS, only with more advanced IR technologies.
It is expected that Elix-IR, along with other products such as MIRAS, a threat warner for fast-jets, Vicon 78, a counter-measure dispenser system, and Imagery on Demand toolsets will constitute the basic components of a future Thales Defensive Aids Suite solution, offering an unrivalled capability for the protection and sustained operation of modern air platforms.
http://www.thalesgroup.com/News_and_events/LandJoint_Focus_081008_elix_ir/
Not that there are a few systems with single and multicolour capabilities (Elix-IR, MIRAS and Vicon 78:[a threat warner for fast-jets]) but that their capabilities will be ported to DDMNG.
Posters question:
Mr Jon Lakoniko, (if all you said was TRUE):
Why would you feel the need to expend such disproportionate energy on every Rafale thread in the planet (including Airliners.net, MilitaryPhotos.net, PPrune and here), when you, unlike us, have the privilege of being able to express your views in industry publications?
Answer: Propaganda.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 12:10 PM
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Posters question:
Mr Jon Lakoniko, (if all you said was TRUE):
Why would you feel the need to expend such disproportionate energy on every Rafale thread in the planet (including Airliners.net, MilitaryPhotos.net, PPrune and here), when you, unlike us, have the privilege of being able to express your views in industry publications?
Answer: Propaganda.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 2:32 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 2:31 PM
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Ca joue a la dinette les specialistes d'AFM qui bien entendu sont reputes pour ne jamais insulter les gens, on croit rever...
The French poster didn't noticed yet that the Thales systems are different from the MBDA DDMNG which might not be able to do what he think he does, the current DDM provides with 360* according to Fox_3.
Some are doing research (and still get things wrong with lack of infos which btw were there for me to get on the MBDA website, so mea culpa) some are picking up the cr@p and taking the forums for thea salons, no wonder the AJs are taking the mickey with us.
"arthuro
Rank 5 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 862
Good point. Are your sure there are only 2 ? I thought they were four although I am not certain. (2 on both side of the tale box) and two on each side of the cockpit...But I think I might be mixing that with the Laser warning reciever !"
SO You think?
Faut arreter de fumer ce que vous fumez vous deux...
Posters question:
Mr Jon Lakoniko, (if all you said was TRUE):
Why would you feel the need to expend such disproportionate energy on every Rafale thread in the planet (including Airliners.net, MilitaryPhotos.net, PPrune and here), when you, unlike us, have the privilege of being able to express your views in industry publications?
Answer: Propaganda.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 13, 2009 3:57 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 3:29 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 3:25 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 3:00 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 2:56 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 2:48 PM
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So, a little homework to figure the MBDA DDMNG technologies.
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December 12 2009, 3:07 PM
DDM NG
New generation missile warning system for Rafale
Description
State-of-the-art infrared staring array technology
Long detection range
Advanced algorithms ensure very low false alarm rate
Very large field of view
High angular accuracy compliant with DIRCM needs
Form, fit, function replacement for DDM on Rafale
Operational requirement
Detection of passive self-guided missiles is a priority requirement for fighters, given the damage they caused in recent conflicts.
The MBDA solution
DDM is a totally passive missile detector, offering early detection, accurate angular resolution and easy integration with no RF compatibility problem.
MAIN FEATURES and ADVANTAGES
Covert passive system
Dual colour imaging
Early detection
Very large field of view
High angular precision
Automatic decoy activation
Thales claims a technologic breakthrough with their system, the difference seems to be in the algorithm substraction they mention in their documentation, which is meant to cut background noise (Sea, Air, Land).
There is NO mention of a possible optical channel in MBDA syustem as opposed to Thales in the case of Elix-IR.
Posters question:
Mr Jon Lakoniko, (if all you said was TRUE):
Why would you feel the need to expend such disproportionate energy on every Rafale thread in the planet (including Airliners.net, MilitaryPhotos.net, PPrune and here), when you, unlike us, have the privilege of being able to express your views in industry publications?
Answer: Propaganda.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Dec 12, 2009 3:21 PM
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Yaguarete_AR (Login Yaguarete_AR) The Conquerors (Turkey)
Re: Brasil orders 36 Rafales. Part Three.
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December 14 2009, 6:17 PM
Decision on purchase of fighter jets will be taken in 2010, says Lula
Laryssa Borges
Direct from Mexico City
President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said Monday that the Brazilian government's announcement on the purchase of fighter planes should only be done early next year. The president, who attended a lunch with General officers, sought to emphasize the process of modernization of the Armed Forces with, and fighter, the acquisition of submarines, armored vehicles and with the bill, if approved by Congress, provides Police Force contingent to the Navy and Air Force.
"This meeting will take place at an auspicious time. Last week we sent to Congress (a project) strengthening the Ministry of Defense. It is gratifying to know that the Army is getting the first batch of 34 armored vehicles. By 2030 three thousand will be shielded . In early 2010, we take a decision on the fighter aircraft of the Brazilian Air Force, "said Lula.
Ended on October 2 deadline set by the Government to take the Boeing, Dassault and Saab make a presentation of its proposed sale of fighter aircraft for the Air Force (FAB).
The process of sale of 36 new fighter jets to Brazil, although companies to avoid talking about values, must mobilize an amount of about 4 billion euros. Brazil, that on September 7 announced its decision to strengthen political negotiations with the French Rafale, has also been pressured by the Swedish Saab, who came to offer two Gripen fighters to the price of one.
The main demand from Brazil to choose the winner among three finalists is the possibility of technology transfer and the chance of Brazilian companies could manufacture the new aircraft and export.
Armed Forces
By participating in the luncheon with General officers, the president also said the military also deserve recognition for their role in programs such as MINUSTAH (United Nations Mission for the Stabilization of Haiti), to combat dengue in Bahia, in permanent help of airplanes national air mail in the Amazon, to support hospital-ship in the Amazon region, and support logistics in the tests for Enem (National Examination of Secondary Education).
"The PAC, the Program of Growth Acceleration has received unconditional support of military engineering in roads, bridges, railways and airports. I was particularly happy in the interconnecting channels of the St. Francis basin," said Lula.
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