Official image released by the South Korean navy

It's official, the ROK Navy wants to take over the world lol.

Even with 2 AEGIS KD-III launched so far, 1 under construction, and 3 more planned until 2018, the South Korean Navy is apparently not satisfied and will not stop there. There was an announcement at the ROKN HQ today, unveiling an all new class of AEGIS-equipped ships officially designated KDX-IIA. This ship will be larger than the 5,000 ton KD-II, but smaller than the 10,000 ton KD-III, hence its designation. It looks to be a huge evolutionary leap forward for the venerable AEGIS platform with significant RCS reduction and automation in line with next-generation warship designs.

So around 2020~ our navy will consist of...

6 KD-II (5,000 tons, 64-cell VLS)



6 KD-III (10,000 tons, 128-cell VLS, AEGIS)



X-number of KDX-IIA (6,000~7,000 tons VLS, AEGIS)



This might be a bit of a shock, but on paper, there is no disputing that the South Korean Navy of 2020 as it looks like now, may very well rival anyone short of the US Navy and puts us in the same league as the Royal Navy, Marine Nationale, and the JMSDF.


_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

Somewhat similar to the Turkish Milgem which is an ASW corvette but all indications are that the design will be enlarged and modified into an AAW frigate for the TF-2000 project. I wonder if there is any cooperation between SK and Turkey behind the scenes on this?



I Hail The Flag

And when you factor in the Ulsan replacement/FFG(X)class...........bloody hell.

Good for the South Korea Navy!!! Got to make sure China doesn't get any ideas.




"Korea has not been the only battle ground since the end of the Second World War. Men have fought and died in Malaya, in Greece, in the Philippines, in Algeria and Cuba, and Cyprus and almost continuously on the Indo-Chinese Peninsula. No nuclear weapons have been fired. No massive nuclear retaliation has been considered appropriate. This is another type of war, new in its intensity, ancient in its origin--war by guerrillas, subversives, insurgents, assassins, war by ambush instead of by combat; by infiltration, instead of aggression, seeking victory by eroding and exhausting the enemy instead of engaging him. It is a form of warfare uniquely adapted to what has been strangely called 'wars of liberation,' to undermine the efforts of new and poor countries to maintain the freedom that they have finally achieved. It preys on economic unrest and ethnic conflicts. It requires in those situations where we must counter it, and these are the kinds of challenges that will be before us in the next decade if freedom is to be saved, a whole new kind of strategy, a wholly different kind of force, and therefore a new and wholly different kind of military training."-President Kennedy's Address at Graduation Exercises of the U.S. Military Academy, 1962
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"The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss - the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year - sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So. You call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
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"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars."-Yuri Orlov, Lord of War
------------------------------

"Somewhat similar to the Turkish Milgem which is an ASW corvette but all indications are that the design will be enlarged and modified into an AAW frigate for the TF-2000 project. I wonder if there is any cooperation between SK and Turkey behind the scenes on this? "

I doubt it. The KDX-IIA will be larger than the KD-II, putting it in the 6,000 ton + range. I think that places it beyond the design realm of an enlarged corvette...

Regarding the FF(X), progress has been slow on that front and getting a little worrisome. Since we'll have gotten our bases covered pretty damn well in terms of large escorts (6 KD-IIs, 6 KD-IIIs), I would personally like to see more priority being given to FF(X) development and KD-II radar upgrades. Also, according to the current timeline, the KDX-IIA is slated to start coming online in 2019, right after the last KD-III is commissioned in 2018. I think it's a rather late time to be buying into another AEGIS vessel. I'm pretty sure as the program matures, they would consider better options as they become available, a miniaturized SPY-3 would be nice.






_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

This might be a bit of a shock, but on paper, there is no disputing that the South Korean Navy of 2020 as it looks like now, may very well rival anyone short of the US Navy and puts us in the same league as the Royal Navy, Marine Nationale, and the JMSDF.

It depends how you rate the Japanese navy really, they do have a lot of ships, though a lot seem to be quite out of date. As for the RN and MN it's harder to compare unless you take into account SSNs, SSBNs, carriers, transports and supply/support ships too.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

Not bad, but you have to hope that they will actually build 6 KD-IIIs and that KD-IIA plans come to fruition.

--------------------------------------------

Regarding the JMSDF, it's quite the contrary! They have possibly the largest number of modern destroyers in the world short of the USN, almost none of their ships are over 20 years old, it's one of the youngest fleets out there. In the last 10 or so years alone, they've built 20 destroyers, almost half their destroyer fleet in service today. (6 AEGIS Kongo/Atago, 14 Murasame/Imp. Murasame)

You might have noticed I was careful to avoid direct comparisons with other navies in my previous post. Each has their own different needs and requirements, so really an accurate comparison is impossible. Regardless, a force of 6 KD-IIIs, 6 KD-IIs + KDX-IIA, and 9 Type 214 subs + follow-up 3,000 ton class is easily a top-5 navy candidate no matter how anyone sees it.




_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

Just released article in English

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/10/205_53441.html

Korea to Build 6 'Mini Aegis' Destroyers The Navy will build six 5,600-ton "mini Aegis" destroyers. Navy headquarters announced the plan in a parliamentary audit at the Gyeryongdae military headquarters on Tuesday, pledging to use the destroyers as part of the main naval combat fleet.

The KDX-IIIA "mini" destroyers are upgrades from the 4,500 ton-class KDX-II without the Aegis capabilities and smaller than the 7,600 ton-class Aegis KDX-III.

The Navy currently has six KDX-II destroyers, including the Munmu the Great, and one KDX-III -- the King Sejong the Great. It pledged to operate an "efficient mobile naval combat fleet" by building the KDX-IIAs from 2019 until 2026. The project will cost more than W3 trillion (US$1=W1,169).

The KDX-IIA destroyers will be equipped with state-of-the-art weapons such as reconnaissance-level high-performance radar, SM-2 guided missiles and a close-in defense weapons system.

But Grand National Party lawmaker Kim Jang-soo said the plan is unrealistic. "The Navy's plan says that it will organize a mobile combat fleet of three KDX-IIIs and KDX-IIs. But it'll be impossible to form such a mobile fleet because three of the Navy's six KDX-IIs are under repair and maintenance or are mobilized for an overseas mission or for a joint military exercises," he said. "For the moment, it'd be better to build three more KDX-IIs at a cost similar to that of building KDX-III class vessels, which cost up to W1 trillion each."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It does sound like they are favoring a larger number of KDX-IIA over the option of building 3 more KDX-IIIs. Still ain't bad






_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

Regarding the JMSDF, it's quite the contrary! They have possibly the largest number of modern destroyers in the world short of the USN, almost none of their ships are over 20 years old, it's one of the youngest fleets out there. In the last 10 or so years alone, they've built 20 destroyers, almost half their destroyer fleet in service today. (6 AEGIS Kongo/Atago, 14 Murasame/Imp. Murasame)

I was thinking more of their frigates as I've not read anything about their replacements, I've read lots about the destroyers though.

You might have noticed I was careful to avoid direct comparisons with other navies in my previous post. Each has their own different needs and requirements, so really an accurate comparison is impossible. Regardless, a force of 6 KD-IIIs, 6 KD-IIs + KDX-IIA, and 9 Type 214 subs + follow-up 3,000 ton class is easily a top-5 navy candidate no matter how anyone sees it.

Indeed, they are all supposed to be optimised for that countries need, or at least in the process of being optimised so that they do meet that countries need. As for 5, here are the candidates, IMO... In no particular order:

1. Royal Navy
2. Marine Nationale
3. Deutsche Marine
4. US Navy
5. Chinese Navy
6. Russian Navy
7. Japan Marine SDF
8. South Korean Navy
9. Spanish Navy
10. Italian Navy
11. Australian Navy
12. Indian Navy


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

It does sound like they are favoring a larger number of KDX-IIA over the option of building 3 more KDX-IIIs. Still ain't bad

So the extra KDX-IIA would be funded by not buying KDX-III ships 7, 8 and 9, or by not buying KDX-III ships 4, 5 and 6?


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

The JMSDF is an all destroyer force, but the six Abukumas they have would be in the frigate/corvette territory tonnage wise, if they weren't curiously named "destroyer escorts". But even these were constructed in the late 80s/early 90s so they're relatively young. Other than these, the rest of their escorts are ALL destroyers, some 40 or so of them all heavily geared towards ASW with the exception of the AEGIS equipped Kongo/Atagos. They are the last navy you want to tangle with if you were in a sub.




_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

Hulls 4~6 as it would seem for now, but that's under the assumption that the KDX-IIA will really cost only half as much as the KDX-III as they would think. We'll see about that.






_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

Hulls 4~6 as it would seem for now, but that's under the assumption that the KDX-IIA will really cost half as much as the KDX-III as they would think. We'll see about that. More than anything, our budget situation needs to get better in the next couple of years.

Depends whether Korea has more need for big ships or more need for numbers of hulls in different places as to whether its worth it...


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

I....have some serious doubts as to whether we would have the manpower to men 6 new destroyers on top of the manpower-hungry FFX when it starts hitting the waters...unless they cut FFX numbers (likely) or commit to serious automation on ships (unlikely).

170 crew for a 3000 ton light frigate that's going to start entering service in the 2010~2020s...Jesus.....

---

Swiss Army Knives...up to a dozen tools, and the only thing you learn to use is the bottle and can opener.

It's like me, only prettier.

I....have some serious doubts as to whether we would have the manpower to men 6 new destroyers on top of the manpower-hungry FFX when it starts hitting the waters...unless they cut FFX numbers (likely) or commit to serious automation on ships (unlikely).

170 crew for a 3000 ton light frigate that's going to start entering service in the 2010~2020s...Jesus.....

As Joon posted, they seem to be going for just 3 KDX-III instead of 6, so that should help the situation. Perhaps its cheaper to pay someone to do the job on the FFX, than to automate it? Though we should also consider that smaller crew = better living standards, for a given size of ship.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

Probably cheaper yes, but on the long-run...they're going to run into some serious trouble recruiting people as the population begins to age and the conscript pool begins to run dry.... The army's already putting a lot of thing together to decrease its manpower needs. It's more expensive, but at least they might be able to avoid the problem of leaving equipments to rot because no one can operate it.

Additional KDX-3 was never really on the map as far as I know about it, though the words of improved KDX-2, or something of that size range was going about.

---

Swiss Army Knives...up to a dozen tools, and the only thing you learn to use is the bottle and can opener.

It's like me, only prettier.

SK would be well ahead of RN and MN regarding surface combat fleet.

SK would be well ahead of RN and MN regarding surface combat fleet.

You can't speak regarding the Royal Navy in that sort of future context as the decisions haven't been made yet. The French it is possible, since they are buying 11 FREMM, presumably of which 2 will be FREMM AA. The difference really comes down to how many KDX-IIA are bought and what their fitout is, and what standard the FFX will be at.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

Why does SK put so much emphasis on her navy? Is SK so confident about the outcome of a possible war with NK that they can afford to spend money on the SK Navy? But still, why such a powerful navy?



When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.

Why does SK put so much emphasis on her navy? Is SK so confident about the outcome of a possible war with NK that they can afford to spend money on the SK Navy? But still, why such a powerful navy?

To match Japan and to try to defend their trade routes for two. This also matches up with their procurements, lots of surface combatants to operate in the near region, not so much focus on force projection assets.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

"Why does SK put so much emphasis on her navy? Is SK so confident about the outcome of a possible war with NK that they can afford to spend money on the SK Navy? But still, why such a powerful navy?"

The Navy is, and always has been, the most neglected branch of the ROK military. Extra emphasis? Hardly... If you think this is impressive, you should take a closer look at the ROK Army and the preparations they are making for WWIII. Our budget is dominated almost exclusively by Army programs... The KDX is our core naval program that gets top priority on the navy's share of funding, while it was untouched during the budget crunch, others have struggled like buying the proper aircraft to fit out the Dokdo LPD, her sister ship, and new MCM helos.

With the long over-due KDX program, we are cutting them a little more slack than before, but by far from being given special treatment... that honor will always belong to the army. But anyways, Korea is an one of the most trade-dependant economies in the world... a massive 40% of our GDP. If there was a security situation in the Gulf of Aden, it would be as big a direct threat to us as North Korea. Securing our trade routes is absolutely imperative to our survival. In addition to this, and the need to contend with some of our not-so-friendly oceangoing neighbours, it's also about taking on some humanitarian responsibilities, simply doing our part and leaving a mark as a growing regional and global power.




_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

Some analysis on the preliminary design from a contributor (ID:maxi) at the Bemil website...



Stealth features including a concealed, integrated mast, streamlined hull, low profile and angular sides. Note the resemblance to Lockheed Martin's LCS design.



If the ship is indeed AEGIS-equipped, the phased array panels have to be placed externally of course, but everything else (ESM, navigation sensors, etc) will be concealed and masked inside the integrated mast. But something else is missing... They say this is an AEGIS vessel but there are no fire-control illuminators anywhere in the diagram! So either this isn't an AEGIS and will employ an active array in the likes of SPY-3/APAR, or if it is... they will have to carry active guidance missiles in the likes of SM-6/Aster 3 for it to work without illuminators.

There is much more, tomorrow if I have time.





_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

"1. Royal Navy
2. Marine Nationale
3. Deutsche Marine
4. US Navy
5. Chinese Navy
6. Russian Navy
7. Japan Marine SDF
8. South Korean Navy
9. Spanish Navy
10. Italian Navy
11. Australian Navy
12. Indian Navy"

No. 5,12,11 and arguably no. 6 should not be in the list.






colours of Kaziranga

"US Navy and puts us in the same league as the Royal Navy, Marine Nationale, and the JMSDF".

Different types of capabilties, you have SSKs we have SSN and SSBMs, you have a lot more AAW we have a CAG with hall-roud capabilties.

Procurements needs are differents same with RN.







"ppp56)
You can't speak regarding the Royal Navy in that sort of future context as the decisions haven't been made yet"

Yes you CAN just by being realistic and readingMoD/NAO documentation.

Without a CAG, no proper AAW, still waiting for Astute and Type 45 to be sorted, priorities are elsewhere than in a large number of ships.

Thunder Supports Rafale
Photobucket SUCKS.
http://rafale.freeforums.org
http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-aerodynamics-compared-t69.html

The KDX's are all advanced ships actually I am glad to see SK navy going strong.

In fact IMO it would be great to see all the navies of China, Korea, Japan going strong and sail to the rest of the world to fight pirates LOL

Yes you CAN just by being realistic and readingMoD/NAO documentation.
Without a CAG, no proper AAW, still waiting for Astute and Type 45 to be sorted, priorities are elsewhere than in a large number of ships.

Thunder, as a result of your wish to turn this into a UK-France flame war you shall be getting no on topic response from me, try one of the existing British or French threads instead.

@ everyone except Thunder

The Royal Navy has not decided what its future combatant force will be composed of, though it will probably be based on the S2C2 concepts. The main thinking seems to be a mix of a large number of low end ships to do patrol at a lower cost, leaving the high cost high capability ships to do other roles that require their high capabilities.

C1 = High end ship, probably land attack roled, fitted with ARTISAN and a large number of VLS cells. Might have some command facilities to act as the command ship for a group of smaller C3. Possibly based on Type 45 hull for cost savings.

C2 = Frigate replacement for Type 23s, though probably 6000t+ with good sonar + ARTISAN radar but less VLS cells than C1. Focus on ASW and surface combat + helo, but larger size will mean room for lots of upgrades and obviously better living standards. Air defence will be provided with CAMM. May also be based on Type 45 hull.

C3 = Lkely to be a corvette or light frigate in size, large numbers of ships though only very lightly armed (guns), cheap and efficient propulsion system. Small possibility of CIWS or CAMM, though if it is fitted it will probably be an in service upgrade so it is less threat to C2 numbers and also mean the RN can argue for even more C3 as a lightly armed ship costs less! Probably be fitted with ARTISAN radar too.

BMT Venator (Based on C3 requirements)








"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

"I doubt it. The KDX-IIA will be larger than the KD-II, putting it in the 6,000 ton + range. I think that places it beyond the design realm of an enlarged corvette..."


The TF-2000 AAW will also be in the 6,000+ ton range, and will resemble the Milgem corvette in design. KDX-IIA looks very similar to the milgem so i wouldn't be suprised if there were some Turkish-Korean co-operation.

---

On 12 June 1992, a Greek Mirage F-1C crashed during a dogfight with a Turkish F-16 piloted by Capt. Ilhan Filiz.

On 8 October 1996, a Greek Mirage-2000 piloted by Thanos Grivas shot down a Turkish F-16D with a Magic IR missile.

Just two days after that murder, on 10 October 1996 a Greek Mirage-2000 crashed close to Semadirek island after a dogfight with two Turkish F-16s.

Point of the story is: TUAF saved itself two missiles.

^ i would not mind that at all as long as the pace picks up fast on the TF2000 and the korean version

"Without a CAG, no proper AAW, still waiting for Astute and Type 45 to be sorted, priorities are elsewhere than in a large number of ships. "

The Astute is coming on line as is the T45. For you to criticise these vessels while France is begging the US to allow French pilots to train from American carriers shows utter lunacy. The French carrier with has been plagued with problems. The Rafale has been a political failure and I doubt the new French SSN will be making many Russian sub boat skippers lose to much sleep at night. Perhaps I should get an engineer I know of on the Astute and the Virginia SSNs to respond to your egotistical comments.



THUNDER what CAG are you talking of. One carrier is hardly an effective carrier force. I would put the RN up against the MN any day of the week. Training, discipline and morale are hugely important and in these areas the French military is hugely lacking.

In all of your posts I have noticed your hatred for the US and the UK. Yet you have the nerve to call others "fan boys." You must the be the biggest "FANBOY" on this site. You champion the Rafale, and demonstrate not one ounce of objectivity in your posts.

I always laugh at those people who criticize the Americans for being egotistical as 9/10 their accusers are more arrogant than the average American.

By the way I have served in 2 different militaries, in both the navy and the army.


I hate to say it, but on this site you are attempting to be a big fish in a little pond.

I think you should be thanking the United States, United Kingdom, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc for saving France, not once but twice in the last 90 years.

The Astute is coming on line as is the T45. For you to criticise these vessels while France is begging the US to allow French pilots to train from American carriers shows utter lunacy. The French carrier with has been plagued with problems. The Rafale has been a political failure and I doubt the new French SSN will be making many Russian sub boat skippers lose to much sleep at night. Perhaps I should get an engineer I know of on the Astute and the Virginia SSNs to respond to your egotistical comments.

Thunder will just claim that as more proof that the Americans designed Astute.

It would be funny if the Barracuda SSN were as incredibly loud as de Gaulle is said to be

THUNDER what CAG are you talking of. One carrier is hardly an effective carrier force. I would put the RN up against the MN any day of the week. Training, discipline and morale are hugely important and in these areas the French military is hugely lacking.

We could compare them, but to be fair we should compare a land based RAF airfield as the de Gaulle is basicly a land based carrier




"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

It would be funny if the Barracuda SSN were as incredibly loud as de Gaulle is said to be happy

It would be even funnier if they were just as reliable. Do you think they will ask the Americans if they can place their torpedoes on USN submarines, since the Barracudas will be part of the Paris Port Task force.

*We could compare them, but to be fair we should compare a land based RAF airfield as the de Gaulle is basicly a land based carrier wink*

So you mean an RAF airfield without aircraft? I suppose that would be fair on the De Gaulle.

It would be even funnier if they were just as reliable. Do you think they will ask the Americans if they can place their torpedoes on USN submarines, since the Barracudas will be part of the Paris Port Task force.

Assuming they have working torpedoes to send, if not they could just ask the Americans to fit some French flags to American torpedoes

So you mean an RAF airfield without aircraft? I suppose that would be fair on the De Gaulle.

Yes, and by the sea, like the one at Gibraltar, except too short and with a radiation hazard




"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

"The TF-2000 AAW will also be in the 6,000+ ton range, and will resemble the Milgem corvette in design. KDX-IIA looks very similar to the milgem so i wouldn't be suprised if there were some Turkish-Korean co-operation."

I see. Still, there is no sign of co-operation between Korea and Turkey so far. It also seems unlikely given the fact that the KDX-IIA will be designed for AEGIS, while the TF-2000 is going a totally separate route with a domestic solution... They both resemble the LCS somewhat, and it may very well likely be that it served as a common inspiration for both ships resulting in some similarities rather than the result of actual co-operation. The KDX-IIA design is still at a very early stage anyways, it may end up looking radically different from what is presented now.




_________________________________________________
"Made from 100% Quality Korean Genes"

I see. Still, there is no sign of co-operation between Korea and Turkey so far. It also seems unlikely given the fact that the KDX-IIA will be designed for AEGIS, while the TF-2000 is going a totally separate route with a domestic solution... They both resemble the LCS somewhat, and it may very well likely be that it served as a common inspiration for both ships resulting in some similarities rather than the result of actual co-operation. The KDX-IIA design is still at a very early stage anyways, it may end up looking radically different from what is presented now.

My thoughts exactly


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!