Found this today. I hope it is not true about the UK canceling one of their future carriers. I do not understand only having one carrier. Would it not make more sense just to make 3 smaller Hermes size ships than only one large flattop? Instead of 2 60,000 ton vessels, why not make 3 30K ships? That way there can at least be one ship on station at any one time. Look at the French. They are without a carrier, except the one that is always in port, which means they have to fly their planes off the US carriers. What is the use of only having one carrier when? I do wonder if what is going on is a way for the Europeans to force closer military integration using economic argments? Many articles are cropping up suggesting the UK and France should operate carriers jointly. I wonder how long until such themes become common regarding other areas in European militaries.

Would not the Brits and Germans make more effective partners than French and British, or French and German? Perhaps the French should team with the Italians???



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6888962.ece


Navy surrenders one new aircraft carrier in budget battle
Michael Smith

* 12 Comments

Recommend? (2)

The Royal Navy has agreed to sacrifice one of its two new aircraft carriers to save about £8.2 billion from the defence budget.

The admirals, who have battled for a decade to secure the two new 65,000-ton carriers, have been forced to back down because of the soaring cost of the American-produced Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft due to fly off them.

The move is a blow to the navys prestige and has come on the heels of Gordon Browns announcement last month that he was axing one of the navys four Trident nuclear deterrent submarines.

It is too late for the navy to renege on contracts to build the two carriers, the Queen Elizabeth, due to go into service in 2016, and the Prince of Wales, due to follow in 2018. Although the second carrier will be built, it will be used as an amphibious commando ship, with only helicopters on board instead of JSF aircraft.

The move will leave the navy without a carrier when the Queen Elizabeth goes into refit, leaving open the possibility that it might have to borrow one from the French navy. In a meeting with Brown last year, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, had suggested that refits of French and British aircraft carriers should be co-ordinated.

The decision to have only one new aircraft carrier will cut the number of JSFs to be flown by RAF squadrons from 138 to about 50, saving £7.6 billion. At current prices, the aircraft will cost close to £90m each, but this could rise to more than £100m.

Using the Prince of Wales as a commando ship will save a further £600m, the amount that would have been needed to replace the amphibious landing ship Ocean, which is due to go out of service in 2018.

The decision to cut the number of JSF aircraft has been agreed by senior navy and air force commanders in discussions preparing for the strategic defence review.

Both Labour and the Conservatives are committed to conducting a strategic defence review after the general election, which must be held by the late spring.

A senior Royal Navy officer said: We always knew that the real cost of the carrier project is the JSF fleet to go on them. It would cost us at least £12 billion if we bought all the aircraft we originally asked for. We are waking up to the fact that all those planes are unaffordable. More than half of the £5 billion contracts to build the two new carriers have been contracted, so it is too late to get out of building the ships. This way at least we are covered when Ocean goes out of service.

Since both aircraft carriers will still be built, there are unlikely to be job losses at the Rosyth ship yards, close to Browns constituency. The JSF aircraft are being built in Fort Worth, Texas, with the involvement of BAE Systems.

The RAF, which had been due to replace its Tornado aircraft with the JSF, will now equip all its frontline squadrons with Eurofighter aircraft instead.

The Conservatives said any decision to axe a carrier would be absolutely unacceptable and typical of the governments chaotic, inconsistent and incompetent defence procurement policy.

Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said the move exposed the governments claim that it wanted a completely independent strategic defence review. The government is saying it is fully committed to the carriers while at the same time forcing them to be cut, he said.

It is confusing for the navy, it is confusing for industry and it is completely inconsistent with the whole concept of running an independent defence review.

The Ministry of Defence said Bob Ainsworth, the defence secretary, remained 100% committed to the carriers but financial circumstances mean some difficult decisions will have to be taken to prioritise our forces efforts in Afghanistan.

The Royal Navy currently has three smaller 20,600-ton carriers: Illustrious, Ark Royal and Invincible. Illustrious is on a visit to Liverpool. Invincible has already been mothballed.

"Would not the Brits and Germans make more effective partners than French and British, or French and German? Perhaps the French should team with the Italians???"

France doesn't need nor Germany, nor Italy nor the UK for designing/building a carrier.

CVF was a totaly political venture and a waste of time and resources, DCNS/Thales had a better, cheaper solution in their designs and this is where DGA is going to go in the future.

I didn't post this article because so far there is no way to validate with another source the only certainty is the cost of F-35 which is detailed by several other sources amongwhich the US DoD...

Thunder Supports Rafale

http://rafale.freeforums.org
http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-aerodynamics-compared-t69.html

So what is the French proposal on their second carrier now? Are they still going ahead with it? They seem to be on again, off again with their weapon systems too.

MODS FEEL FREE TO LOCK THIS THREAD!!! ALREADY ANOTHER UP.

Both CVFs will be built, read the article!
One will serve as a giant helicopter carrier but it's pretty obvious that once UK will have the sufficient funding, the additional fighters will be purchased!

Btw, it pi$$es me off to read around WAFF that the CDG is ALWAYS on port! It's so far from the truth, like if the dozens of campaigns, Afghanistan and so on didn't happen because it is at port for its scheduled upgrading and maintenance!



FREE EASTERN TURKISTAN

Sure it will be built. But it will not be used as an aircraft carrier, so WTF? It seems that the UK and France may end up pooling these ships.

As for people trashing the CDG, dude get over it. People on military forums are nationalistic and they always think their nation has the best stuff and rag on the militaries of other nations. That is the way military sites are. Hell the US and UK and Germans and Italians always get teased. The French are going to get teased too. Deal with it.

"KIWIOZZYYANKY)
It seems that the UK and France may end up pooling these ships".

Whgere did you get this phantasm from?




"KIWIOZZYYANKY)
As for people trashing the CDG, dude get over it".

Get yourself informed properly.



"KIWIOZZYYANKY)
People on military forums are nationalistic and they always think their nation has the best stuff and rag on the militaries of other nations".

Trolls does, I inform with proper sources.


"KIWIOZZYYANKY)
That is the way military sites are".

That's the way WANKERS are, military sites are also populated by educated members.



"KIWIOZZYYANKY)
Hell the US and UK and Germans and Italians always get teased. The French are going to get teased too. Deal with it".

If that's your intentions, a word of warning, get your painkillers ready.



Thunder Supports Rafale

http://rafale.freeforums.org
http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-aerodynamics-compared-t69.html

Sure it will be built. But it will not be used as an aircraft carrier, so WTF? It seems that the UK and France may end up pooling these ships.

Completely infeasible, CVF has no facilities for Rafale to land or takeoff, adding such facilities would wipe out any savings from joint operations.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

I once lived in France,
but left for Angleterre,
I dream up flying in planes,
and invent some sources too,
but when it comes to proving it,
it's Tampax down the drain!

i seen the uk carrier looks better then the american version and much sexy like there astonmartin

Royal Navy Surrenders One New Aircraft Carrier In Budget Battle (excerpt)


(Source: The Sunday Times; published Oct. 25, 2009)



The Royal Navy has agreed to sacrifice one of its two new aircraft carriers to save about £8.2 billion from the defence budget.

The admirals, who have battled for a decade to secure the two new 65,000-ton carriers, have been forced to back down because of the soaring cost of the American-produced Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft due to fly off them.

The move is a blow to the navys prestige and has come on the heels of Gordon Browns announcement last month that he was axing one of the navys four Trident nuclear deterrent submarines.

It is too late for the navy to renege on contracts to build the two carriers, the Queen Elizabeth, due to go into service in 2016, and the Prince of Wales, due to follow in 2018. Although the second carrier will be built, it will be used as an amphibious commando ship, with only helicopters on board instead of JSF aircraft.

The move will leave the navy without a carrier when the Queen Elizabeth goes into refit, leaving open the possibility that it might have to borrow one from the French navy. In a meeting with Brown last year, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, had suggested that refits of French and British aircraft carriers should be co-ordinated.

The decision to have only one new aircraft carrier will cut the number of JSFs to be flown by RAF squadrons from 138 to about 50, saving £7.6 billion. At current prices, the aircraft will cost close to £90m each, but this could rise to more than £100m.

Using the Prince of Wales as a commando ship will save a further £600m, the amount that would have been needed to replace the amphibious landing ship Ocean, which is due to go out of service in 2018. (end of excerpt)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/109349/royal-navy-loses-one-carrier%2C-80-jsfs-in-budget-battle%3A-report.html


Thunder Supports Rafale

http://rafale.freeforums.org
http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-aerodynamics-compared-t69.html

The move will leave the navy without a carrier when the Queen Elizabeth goes into refit, leaving open the possibility that it might have to borrow one from the French navy.
---
That's pure crap!



When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.

The move will leave the navy without a carrier when the Queen Elizabeth goes into refit, leaving open the possibility that it might have to borrow one from the French navy.
---
That's pure crap!

Certainly is, looks like even the defence publications can't even get the most basic of concepts through their heads. The limit on carriers quite clearly here comes from the UK simply not having enough JSF on order to max out both carriers with fast jets as the "order" may be reduced to 50 from (80, 100, 138), all are valid figures. Of course in reality this won't matter, as the carriers are on rotation, and so we only need enough for one carrier anyway. None seem to have noticed that the second carrier is still being constructed.


"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."

That was my thought, too. If both carriers are built that statement does not make any sense. The UK is not cutting carriers, it's cutting JCA's. That cuts indirectly the carrier force because you won't be able to field both at the same time in an emergency situation, but I wouldn't thik that being a plausible scenario.

Any way a cut from 150-138 to 50 F-35 is still a damn big deal.

"Memento Audere Semper"

France is really unlikely to "Land" a carrier to the UK but it doesn't change MoD financial situation in any way.

AND of course F-35 ever rising unit cost.

Now one British Journalist had some flair at the time...

The signs are barely apparent, but Europe's aerospace industry is heading for a schism that could be even more damaging than 1985's split over the fourth-generation European combat aircraft, Eurofighter and Rafale, writes Nick Cook.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/thread/1256665701/last-1256672152/Future+Offensive+Air+System

Or; how payback is a bitch and perhaps G Hoon wasn't so inspired after all, to turn BAe from a 50% partner of an alliance with Dassault (with official MoU signed before the F-35 MoU) into a metal basher for the US F-35 programe.

The UK screwed France (and Dassault in particular) as well as compromising ETAP for the stake of participating to F-35, we're laughing now, MoD is getting WAY less (research shares, capabilties) for WAY more money...

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/news/idr/idr010706_2_n.shtml
http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw010122_1_n.shtml

Good luck with F-35.


Thunder Supports Rafale

http://rafale.freeforums.org
http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-aerodynamics-compared-t69.html

Nothing concrete to talk about here because

1/ this is standard services politics. In the run up to any defence review each service "leaks stories" to the media to put pressure on the other services. In this case the Navy are saying "we will do our bit so the pressure is off, its now down to the army and air force"

2/there will be many differing stories given out like this in the next year

3/ there will be a new government in place anyway

This is the navy being clever. What they are actually doing is giving up a replacement for HMS Ocean whilst receiving a second carrier that is "fitted for, but not with" aircraft so at a later date they can be added.

In my own opinion I never believed we would get two carrier air groups, just one that rotated between two ships. The real loser here will be the RAF who effectively lose their share of JSF.

From everything I hear the RAF will be the big losers anyway, with Sentrys cut, Harriers and Tornados (except recce) retired in return for a full Typhoon buy, and the threat once again of the Helos transfering to the Army.