To summarize what the French admiral said:
-The admiral denounces the US and Swedish smear campaign against Rafale
-NS supports a Brazilian permanent seat at the UN
-France will transfer all technology included in the Rafale (and its missiles) to Brazil
-Gripen NG doesn't exist yet
-Rafale is more expensive than the SH and Gripen
-6 Rafales will be built in France, the following 30 will be built in France and assembled in Brazil. After that, everything will be built in Brazil.
-Brazil will have the exclusive right to sell Rafale to Southern America
Babelfish translation
The admiral Edouard Guillaud, chief of particular staff of the president of the Republic, granted an interview to the Brazilian newspaper O Globo to denounce the devalorization campaign of the Rafale to which delivers its American and Swedish competitors. French side, the admiral is the first negotiator in this business, as it is it in the United Arab Emirates. It ensures Brazilian support of president Sarkozy obtaining by their country of a permanent headquarter for the Safety advice of the United Nations.
We are not a supermarket of the weapons ensures it. We do not sell only one plane but a whole expertise and technology associated with the project. This tranfert will be complete, contrary to the American proposal. The admiral questions the promise of the Americans to completely transfer the source codes from their systems of weapons. French side, our industry of missile (MBDA note) is laid out to transfer its trade secrets.
Edouard Guillaud is caught of it in Gripen a project which does not exist and which one does not know the future. The plane proposed by Sweden (and whose engine is of American origin) is indeed a new version of the Scandinavian hunter.
The admiral Guillaud recognizes that the price of the Rafale is higher than that of the F-18 and Gripen, but, he, it say is the price to be independent. We guarantee that the price (for the Brazilian ones) is the same one as that paid by the taxpayer for the French Rafale.
The admiral specifies finally that the first six apparatuses will be built in France and that for the thirty following, of the parts will be always manufactured in France but the aassemblage will take place in Brazil. Then, all will be done in Brazil, which will have the exclusiveness in the sales of the plane in Latin America.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 6, 2009 9:13 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 6, 2009 9:09 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 6, 2009 9:09 PM
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Secredefense, not at all a "****ty source", cites a Brazilian O Globo's article. The article is an interview with a French admiral. The only way this could be "****ty" is if this interview didn't take place or the admiral's word were wrongly quoted. You will have to admit that this is very unlikely making this source trustworthy. Unless of course you can prove it's not!
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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but(you forgot that important part) access to source code is guaranteed.
---
I did not:
"-France will transfer all technology included in the Rafale (and its missiles) to Brazil "
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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Brazil dont need all these Rafales.Its were better to buy Rafales,F-18,Grippen and Apaches Helios.But the govern will do business more probaly with Sarkozi and Rafales because the gain will be more to the corrupts govern members from all sides and the box 2 will work for course like in all latinos business.
C´est la vie...
Vive la France!
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If Brazil doesn't buy the Rafale they deserve to never adquire a new fighter.
Billion of Dollars in investigation for FREEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In that case Chile should buy some as well & hump on the train, before Brazil starts producing the Rafale for SA 6 the little quality that French products already have goes completly down the drain.
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"ppp56)
Thats a lot of tech and sales to give away for such a tiny order, especially when you consider how much France has put into that fighter".
A lot of it wasn't deveoped specificaly for Rafale andany sales will increase the amiount of R&DFrance is doing for further upgrades (Roadmap) and future technologies today.
You have no idea what is being developed and is in the pipeline now, stuff as seen in L-M commercials are made looking like wooden toys.
You have no idea what is being developed and is in the pipeline now, stuff as seen in L-M commercials are made looking like wooden toys.
http://www.ixarm.com/IMG/pdf/PS_R_T_2009_web.pdf
---
Euhm, there's nothing we didn't know already in the pdf. And what we know from R&D in France, it's really not that advanced that it makes US R&D look like wooden toys.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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"Nighthawk00)
Euhm, there's nothing we didn't know already in the pdf".
LOL! Considering the amount of bull****s you keep posting there is a LOT you don't know and i guess you certainly didn't READ this PDF either.
"And what we know from R&D in France, it's really not that advanced that it makes US R&D look like wooden toys".
You know FCUK-ALL about what is being developed in France, when we try to post these sort of infos all trolls like you can do is to develop a block and deny the facts as you just DID.
French-developed echnologies demonstrated and bringing world first and real breakthrough are a few.
After multi-colour IR sensors which are already available and way more performant than the single bandwidth as used in EOTS/EODAS there is a new generation of long-range/all-weather IR systems.
Bandwidth substraction, pixel-powered sensors for optical and IR, sattelite laser communication and this is just a few...
Go find us the equivalent in US programes for a laugh.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:10 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:03 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:01 PM
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Could this "Dare2" guy actually be a politer version of Thunder?
"So before trying to make points about technologies please make sure YOU get your facts R.I.G.H.T."
"Multi-colours technologies increases the all-weather/long-range capabilties of IR sensors, = FACT."
I'm now beginning to doubt whether Dare2 actually is Thunder, if so then Thunder is a hypocrite:
"Athmospheric conditions are never 100% optimum even in sunny days, the air itself as a gas limits IR range by its own nature and have its backrgound effect (well known from photographers)."
After all the times DL and Thunder battled over this and Thunder denying that French IR sensors are affected by weather conditions ... .
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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Go back to your SH!T digging and distract from facts. You're a fat mouthed troll.
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November 7 2009, 12:16 PM
READ AGAIN: A BREAKTHROUGH in the infrared technology.
It is expected that Elix-IR, along with other products such as MIRAS, a threat warner for fast-jets, Vicon 78, a counter-measure dispenser system, and Imagery on Demand toolsets will constitute the basic components of a future Thales Defensive Aids Suite solution, offering an unrivalled capability for the protection and sustained operation of modern air platforms.
Got a problem with the source or your foacking brain reality denial block?
= What did i just said?
You only can open up your fat mouth pretending to know then when presented with evidences, flame, and deny reality FOAK you, retard!
"Nighthawk00)
Euhm, there's nothing we didn't know already in the pdf. And what we know from R&D in France, it's really not that advanced that it makes US R&D look like wooden toys".
This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:21 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:19 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:18 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:17 PM
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Yep, you ARE Dare2 (exact same images from the same photobucket album)
Just to explain to everyone what you are barking about:
-Thales coupled a long range and mid range IR sensor, each sensor works better under certain atmospheric conditions.
-Thales also developed an algorithm to maximize and couple the information both sensor return.
=> The detection range is always the detection range max(mid range IR sensor, long range IR sensor) + X. The added X constant (I'd say it's actually a function but akin to be constant) is due to the second point.
So basically this system, nothing technologically challenging about it certainly doesn't make L-M look like wooden toys manufacturers, will be much less weather dependent.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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Nighthawk00
Just to explain to everyone what you are barking about:
-Thales coupled a long range and mid range IR sensor, each sensor works better under certain atmospheric conditions.
WRONG your explainations are totaly boggus.
The point 1 was done with OSF a technology dated from 1991 time of its developement contract.
This system is ONE sincle sensor com,bining TWO bandwidth adding bandwidth substration to it and eliminating the background noise and all-weather-limits of the longest ranged banmdwidth.
It is a technologic breakthrough the US didn't manage YET and whay it is all-weather/longrange instead of Visual Meteoroloic Conditions LIMITED.
"So basically this system, nothing technologically challenging about it certainly doesn't make L-M look like wooden toys manufacturers, will be much less weather dependent".
So nothing technologically challenging that your most advanced canot be used vs the type of background this system CAN and not either in the sort of weather this system CAN.
YOU ARE NOT ONLY A LIAR BUT ALSO A DUMB IGNORANT: EFFECTIVE RANGE IS INCREASED IN ALL WEATHER BY ELIMINATING THE BACKGROUNS NOISE.
Now fcuk off change your liar's flaming title please, it is not the original one.
After multi-colour IR sensors which are already available and way more performant than the single bandwidth as used in EOTS/EODAS there is a new generation of long-range/all-weather IR systems.
---
Just proved it's nothing particularly high tech. Of course you'll disagree with this.
Bandwidth substraction, pixel-powered sensors for optical and IR, sattelite laser communication and this is just a few...
---
This is really not new technology ...
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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Nighthawk00)
Bandwidth substraction, pixel-powered sensors for optical and IR, sattelite laser communication and this is just a few...
---
This is really not new technology ...
LIAR!!! World FIRSTS and WAY more advanced than what you got at home with official Defense Minister staments to prove it.
= Shut the bark off retard!.
"Nighthawk00)
Just proved it's nothing particularly high tech. Of course you'll disagree with this".
We all agree you're a fat mouthed liar, nothing surprising since digging the sh!test blogs and speading SMEAR is your favourite..
This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:34 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:33 PM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 7, 2009 12:32 PM
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This system is ONE sincle sensor com,bining TWO bandwidth adding bandwidth substration to it and eliminating the background noise and all-weather-limits of the longest ranged banmdwidth.
---
Having one sensor working on two different bandwidths or two sensors working each on a different single bandwidth is not the difficulty here.
Eliminating background noise is easy, every math (or computer science) student has done something similar, maybe not as advanced as the algorithms used by professionals, but every student knows the basics. It's called Fourier transform. I've used it for example to remove "noise" from radio signals and to make an image of a coin clearer (we had to read the date of the coin from a blurry image). I used a very simple method removing (can be done with an easy threshold test) the least frequently occurring frequencies or when Fourier transformed this translates into removing the small values.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
This message has been edited by Nighthawk00 on Nov 7, 2009 12:38 PM
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It's also telling that you're not attacking the original article anymore, i.e. you're not contesting the points the admiral made more particularly the point about the SH being cheaper than Rafale.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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I mean, you know, that if we are as sketchy as our German friend
implied, why would U.S. firms calling themselves world leaders all
over their Isite need to team up?
Why would the Army select a Franco-German ( sorry SeBuQu, but
it is and still works fine ) LUH?
Oh! Yeah! Maybe because of those Dauphins/Guardians that the
Coast Guard has been using for years in all trust or the ubiquitous
Ecureuil/AStar/TwinStar/EC130 etc which can be seen so much on
American screens, big and small both, so much that in the name of
variety, i sometimes wish you guys would buy and use something else
a little.
You got French comm systems years ago too!
Either you sometimes like we all do stray from reason on account of
patriotism or... all those guys in charge of acquisitions should be fired!
You are very right in one respect though my friend : weve all veered
our usual 90 degrees from post subject, LOL.
Speak softly and carry a big stick.
This message has been edited by 1RCHMDL84 on Nov 7, 2009 4:49 PM This message has been edited by 1RCHMDL84 on Nov 7, 2009 1:56 PM This message has been edited by 1RCHMDL84 on Nov 7, 2009 1:45 PM
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French tech is not so great, or implicitly not as god as the U.S. stuff,
---
Where did I say or even imply that?
All I said was that it's not true that French R&D is so advanced that L-M (what was implied is US) R&D look like wooden toys, i.e. are backwards. Thunder then gave a few examples that, as I said, are simply not proving his case.
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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This time coming from all non-Rafale supporters including some known waffers SAAB lovers, now we know which aircraft is really feared.
Makes you wonder.
To Obligatory: You're a flaming @sshole and an hypocrit.
This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 14, 2009 8:26 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 14, 2009 8:21 AM This message has been edited by sampaix on Nov 14, 2009 8:15 AM
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The best plane will not win this competition, politics will win. Politics is deciding who will get the F22, F35, Rafale, Typhoon etc etc. The same can be said for the USAF tanker competition and the IAF MRCA.
Personally I wish the Typhoon would have won, but that is impossible as the makers of the Typhoon do not carry much weight in Brazil. So it will come down to the USA v France and who has the better "gift of the gab."
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Look at their specs, Typhoon even the T3 is noton par with Rafale in A2A, and that's a fact, Brazilwants a true 4,5 generatino fighter, Typhoon and Gripen are not it, even F-15 doesn't have 5th generation systems appart for theAESA and it's not enough.
"Look at their specs, Typhoon even the T3 is noton par with Rafale in A2A, and that's a fact, Brazilwants a true 4,5 generatino fighter, Typhoon and Gripen are not it, even F-15 doesn't have 5th generation systems appart for theAESA and it's not enough."
Perhaps but as you keep saying in regarding the Barracuda SSN "it is not even out yet." The real thing here is politics. On paper Rafale certainly looks impressive. I wonder if the Brits and Germans would have been better of producing their own AC. These multi national projects often seem to result in massive cost overruns.
I do believe Rafale will ultimately win the contract. I have been led to believe the Rafale is superior all round fighter than Typhoon, while the latter may be superior in A2A. Having not seen either I really do not know.
In my mind if I was Brazil I would buy Rafale for the following reasons,
1. There is a carrier and a land based version. I am sure this is not lost on Brazil's navy.
2. It is highly capable in both A2A and strike.
3. There is not another fighter in South America that can match Rafale.
4. If the rumors are true about wanting to buy French SSNs, this certainly would help grease the pot.
5. The US aircraft are proven designs, but there origins go back 30 years. Rafale is significantly newer with a long future ahead of it.
Anyway the following came from what I regard as one of the more objective sites on the web. This does not address Typhoon/Rafale specifically but talks about them and the F22 in comparison with Flanker.
The Eurofighter Typhoon with AMSAR will compete with the Su-35BM/Su-35-1 in terms of close combat agility and dash speed, but it does not have a decisive advantage in systems and sensors and cannot match the radar range of the Irbis E, and will not match a supercruise engine equipped Flanker.
The Dassault Rafale share many qualities with the Typhoon, but is smaller, and much the same comparisons apply to the Su-35BM/Su-35-1.
A key advantage the Flanker will possess against all but the conformal tank equipped F-15 is combat persistence, which provides far more flexibility in choosing engagements and the opportunity to run an opponent out of gas.
The smaller MiG-35 shares the high agility of the Su-35BM/Su-35-1, but lacks its brute force in raw performance, combat persistence, radar range, and internal volume for mission avionics. All of the Western fighters will compare more favourably against the MiG-35 series, but this may be another entirely academic comparison given that none have been ordered as yet.
The only Western fighter which offers a decisive advantage in all cardinal parameters over the Su-35BM/Su-35-1 is the Lockheed-Martin F-22A Raptor. On internal fuel and subsonic profiles the Flanker will outrange the F-22A slightly, and it is likely that in high alpha low speed manoeuvre the Flanker may perform better. However, in the classical high altitude high speed long range missile combat regime the Raptor will beat the Flanker every time due to the generational advantages of all aspect wideband stealth and supersonic cruise.
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"(Login KIWIOZZYYANKY)
The real thing here is politics."
From our side it is R&D, technologies and systems developement, the roadmap for Rafale is clear, funded and lead to an aircraft with similar systems than those of F-35 comes 2015.
It is the US aircraft which is regarded by GIE as a technologic concurent, not the Typhoon nor Gripen NG.
"(Login KIWIOZZYYANKY)
I wonder if the Brits and Germans would have been better of producing their own AC."
Germany had the designers (DASA/Herbst) but not the experience of BAe at the time, it takes a lot of it to design a succesful M 2.0 fighter and together they had struggled to turn Typhoon into what it is today, mainly aerodynamics and Electric FCS which are Dassault-Aviation forte for decades (Mirage IV, F-1, Mirage 2000, 4000, RAfale A, III NG, Falcon 7X)...
"(Login KIWIOZZYYANKY)
while the latter may be superior in A2A. Having not seen either I really do not know."
This is debatable; Typhoon flight envelop is going up perhaps a little higher into the right en corner, passed M 1.6 but this is to be expected as Rafale is optimised for Machs below this.
In terms of pure maneuvrability Rafale is superior, but Typhoon would have the edge at higher Machs by design, it was optimised for these speeds.
"(Login KIWIOZZYYANKY)
5. The US aircraft are proven designs, but there origins go back 30 years. Rafale is significantly newer with a long future ahead of it."
I desagree on this one, F/A-18 is fundamentaly a new aircraft but it is mostly designed to be cheaper (design/conception, industrialisation) than Rafale and adress the F-18/C/Ds shortfalls.
F/A-18 is not the best dogfighter out-there but it is designed for what it does best and this is attack, it didn't miss its design and programe goals, and have much room for further improvement with engines and systems as well.
The Super-Hornet is what the Navy wanted in relation to F-18, not F-14, people tend to forget this...
"(Login KIWIOZZYYANKY)
Anyway the following came from what I regard as one of the more objective sites on the web."
I have seen this document; what it doesn't tell you is the ratio, discertion/effisciency of the aircrafts...
A Rafale pilot decleared during the Paris Airshow that he could lock on a Typhoon at twice the range needed for another Rafale.
The all idea of Rafale from design stage was discretion, it is developed with generations after generations of passive sensors and a RCS low enough to ballance the difference in sensor range.
With a defense suite like SPECTRA, sensor fusion etc you end up with a pretty clear picture of the battlefield while remaining undetected most of the time, what they have done at Red Flag.
"(Login KIWIOZZYYANKY)
This does not address Typhoon/Rafale specifically but talks about them and the F22 in comparison with Flanker."
F-22 is without a doubt at the top end of A2A fighters, now, how low can the operational costs go, how many more could the USAF procure and how "unuseful" theywill be in the future is still debated today, personally i wouldn't have cut their numbers.
Look at their specs, Typhoon even the T3 is noton par with Rafale in A2A, and that's a fact, Brazilwants a true 4,5 generatino fighter, Typhoon and Gripen are not it, even F-15 doesn't have 5th generation systems appart for theAESA and it's not enough.
The Typhoon is superior to Rafale in air to air, better optics and better radar for a start. 5th generation cannot be defined, as you've agreed yourself, so saying the F15 does not have 5th generation capabilities cannot be proven. AS for things like ECMs we can't make a comparison.
"He lives in a world where concept is reality..."
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Thunder I here what you are saying, but I am not an engineer, so you will have to break it down for me. I know I can go to the Typhoon web pages and find engineers who love the Typoon just as much as you do the Rafale. The same can be said for Amerian and Russian aircraft proponents.
I can see how the Super Hornet is a new plane regarding avionics, engines and so forth, but aerodynamically how different is it from an F18C/D?
Other nations are more interested in Typhoon, Rafale, F35 etc than the latest version of the Hornet. While I believe political reasons are significant reason for this, I doubt they are the only ones. Australia has only ordered a small number of Hornets. I cannot think of another nation outside the US who has ordered the plane.
I have heard the new Hornet has even less manueverability than the original?
Coming from an air defense and artilley background the things I find nasty about Rafale are its small size, high weapons payload, speed, manuevering ability at low level and overall defensive measures. All these things make my job harder.
On the other hand, it would be silly of me to think that those who designed the Mirage 2000 forgot what they were doing when they designed Rafale. Of course the Germans and British and Italians bring a huge pool of knowledge, talent and skill to the table and money to boot.
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The Typhoon is superior to Rafale in air to air, better optics and better radar for a start. 5th generation cannot be defined, as you've agreed yourself, so saying the F15 does not have 5th generation capabilities cannot be proven. AS for things like ECMs we can't make a comparison.
------------------------------------
Well, that remains to be proven in the air.
Until now, the typhoon has only proven to be quite shy vis a vis other 4th generation aircrafts in A2A.
IMHO, if the typhoon is really superior in A2A, it is by a (very) small margin... and probably not in the whole A2A spectrum.
I'm tired of those empty claims stating that the typhoon is far superior in A2A to all aircrafts but the F-22.
There are hundreds of typhoon in operational service for god sake ! what are they waiting for to prove their superiority over the other 4th gen jets?
This message has been edited by Kovy on Nov 16, 2009 7:56 PM
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There are hundreds of typhoon in operational service for god sake ! what are they waiting for to prove their superiority over the other 4th gen jets?
---
Don't want to start a flame war but same could be said of the Rafale. Yes, we heard rumors about the exercises coming from Dassault. But there are also rumors of Belgian F16 pilots saying they were highly unimpressed with the Rafale. Now, at least the Rafale did do some international exercises in A2A whereas the EF did not (or just a few). Rumors gain more credibility when they are heard from several different sources. Up till now we haven't.
BTW, Rafale and Italian EF did some A2A combat training a while back, anyone heard anything about the results?
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
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"IMHO, if the typhoon is really superior in A2A, it is by a (very) small margin... and probably not in the whole A2A spectrum."
This maybe correct. The British, Americans and Germans are notoriously tight lipped when it comes to the true capabilities of their equipment. I would also like to know how the Rafale, Typhoon, Grippen, Super Hornet compare regarding maintaiance and reliability. I understand that the M2k was second to none when it came to maintainance and reliability.
A person pointed out on another board a very good point I in my opinion. He said that a western AC with only 2:1 kill ration over an enemy airforce is going to get western populations demanding answers from the political and military leaders. We in the west have become accoustomed to relatively low casualty figures for our military forces.
This message has been edited by KIWIOZZYYANKY on Nov 17, 2009 8:15 PM
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