http://china-defense.blogspot.in/2012/07/this-is-your-fathers-russian-navy.html

This P-3C can now retire happy having witnessed what all its siblings were born to witness but few ever have.

The Japs failed to take pics of the other 14 ships apparently. The Russian Navy actually sortied 40 ships in the largest such sortie in decades.

A big fleet indeed. But I don't understand why Russia sent ships that all are so rusty. You Russia has a lot of money from selling oil, why didn't do some simple paint jobs before the show?

Yeah I'm sure the Nipponese Navy is shaking in their boots at those rusted ships



Six Jap ships can take care of that whole boris task force.


Tezelia has spoken!!


'Little Evil for Greater Good'



-----------------

Japs got a bloody good navy, but they cant stand up against russian nuke subs.

^ ^ ^
Why not? Because they are nuked powered..? If so that's just silly.

Jap has the second best anti-sub capabilities next to the US... Jap subs are very good
and very quiet.


-----------------

My Mexican-Yankee please start you own thread, and don't troll mine.

In 10 years time when the current re-armament program has run its course and the Russian Navy is again what it should be the pillow f*cking, panty sniffing, pedophile Jap weirdos will be once more voluntarily impaling themselves deeper on the American cock in a bid to insure they are safe from Ivan to say nothing of the Chinese. The PF will see 20 new major surface combatants before 2020.

Today the PF is deterrent enough. Only half a dozen nations on the whole planet can sortie this many blue water combatants and you don't even see the subs. There are 4 destroyers, 1 cruiser, and a dozen frigates and corvettes in these pics. Even by US standards this is an impressive sortie. Its the equivalent of a good 1/10th of US Naval power, and it doesn't factor that at the same time there is 1 more PF destroyer engaged in RIMPAC-2012. So its actually a full 5 PF destroyers sortied, and this is Russia's "minor" fleet! Lets see the British or French fleets sortie 2 dozen major combatants in peace time! They couldn't!

Don't take out your frustration of being militarily stupid out on me, vlad!!

It aint my fault you get sh!t wrong all the time, like not knowing the US has the
capabilities to airlift an M1 tank!



//Even by US standards this is an impressive sortie. Its the equivalent of a good 1/10th of US Naval power//


No it is not impressive to "us." It is only impressive to a russian like you that suffers from russian military
inferiority complex, m'kay?


//Lets see the British or French fleets sortie 2 dozen major combatants in peace time! They couldn't! //



But we're not talking about the Brit and Frog fleet are we..? This is about the russian coast guard trying to show the Japs they
can still sail some ships that aren't fully rusted.


-----------------

The Japs only have 38 major surface combatants. This sortie is about the size of the entire Japanese fleet, but thanks for playing.

And yet it's more advance than the whole russian naval fleet.

Don't forget their 20+ sub fleet that is in exceptional condition.

And their 80+ P-3 Orion.... Face reality, bro!!! Russian navy would not do good in a confrontation
with the Nippon Navy.

In a conventional confrontation.

-----------------

And i only counted 5 major russian surface combatants, dumby!!

The rest are support ships and smaller combatants... Japs also have small surface combatants.

-----------------

Lets count, shall we?

one.


Two.


Three.


Four.


Five.



Don't tell me you russians count these as major surface combatants..?












Do ya?



-----------------

The Nanuchkas have the ASM armaments of full destroyers. At 1,200 tons loaded the Grishas are full frigates by NATO standards and carry more of an ASW punch than a 4,000 ton Perry class so yes they are. They are range limited but Japan is close enough that it doesn't matter.

More importantly I never said the Russian PF in its present state is a match for Japan. Just good enough deterrent. By the end of the decade though it will be a very different story.

Fvck that's a lot of editing coming from you... you really trying to spin out of this one, huh?



This is what you first said...



//The Nanuchkas have the ASM armaments of full destroyers. At 1,200 tons loaded the Grishas are full frigates by NATO standards and carry more of an ASW punch than a 4,000 ton Perry class so yes they are.//



You mean these...?




Are you fvcking kidding me..? They look like they should be man made reefs for the fishies!!!

Let me play your game...

If the Japs had the DDG-168 Tachikaze Class still in service, they'd have 41 "major surface combatants" but they don't, you know why..?


Because they are old!!! Just like those "Nanuchicacas!"

Try again.






-----------------

More like because they are broke. Japan is budget cutting.

And stop bringing up what "might" happen to russian naval capabilities in ten years!!

Anyone can play that stupid game..... Japs will have dozens of Aegis class ships in ten years...
See what i did there?

-----------------

//More like because they are broke. Japan is budget cutting. //



Maybe they are maybe they're not! In five years their economy might be better and they'll be
able to build more ships.

Oil prices may stay low and if America elects a Republican president and opens up our oil fields for
drilling, oil prices may stay low affecting russia, right?

Stop with the predictions, Carnac!


-----------------

Ah, no. Russia has funded these ships and put down keels. Japan has not funded 20 new combatants and wont. Japanese defense budgets adjusted for inflation have been declining for 10 straight years -- google it.

2012 is really the last year of "slow" Russian procurement under the current GPV and was necessary because the MIC funding program took a year to implement and nonsense like OSK absorbing the Balitsk shipyard had to be taken care of. Beginning in 2013 the good part of GPV-2020 begins and things long paid for start to be delivered. As it stands by the end of the year the lead Gorshkov class frigate will enter trials and the Boiky will be commissioned. The Gorshkov will be the most advanced non-NATO frigate on the water. In 2013 you will see the first 1135.6 frigate of the new Admiral line hit the water and then from 2014 its 2 frigates a year every year. And 20380/5 production is picking up too with the Amur shipyard receiving the first completed composite superstructure for its line of the corvettes. By 2020 you are looking at some 100 new major combatants. The GPV calls for 20 conventional submarines, 24 frigates, 40 corvettes, and 6 new destroyers. The only larger buildup is the Chinese.

If Japanese and Russian navy's fought each other it would end in a stalemate but there would be no Russian navy left in pacific.

And no Japan left as a country since the PF is home to 5 boomers and will soon house 2 new Boreis

And no Russia left ether because jJpan can have nukes as well within a matter of hours if they wish.

Your resort to threatening use of nukes is just a admission that that Japan holds the advantage conventionally.

No they cant, and more importantly they can't build the delivery vehicles that fast. It takes a decade of work and half a decade of testing to get an ICBM operational, literally a lifetime of work.

Yes actually they can.

Japan has a space program.

It also has all those SM3 missiles that Russians them self complain can be quickly turned into IRBM.

Warhead buses don't build or develop themselves. Converting a civilian launcher into an ICBM takes years of work as does the reverse. The SS-18's they converted to satellite lauchers took over 5 years of work to get that way, and are the most unreliable (though cheapest) launchers on the market today because its a hack. SM-3's don't have the payload. The Japs would need forever to miniaturize a warhead to fit on an SM-3 and it would never be a true city killer and it would still take years of testing to get the warhead separation bit right because again the warhead bus does not build itself.

//Ah, no. Russia has funded these ships and put down keels. Japan has not funded 20 new combatants and wont. Japanese defense budgets adjusted for inflation have been declining for 10 straight years -- google it.//


But I'm gonna predict that next year will be a better year for Japan and will turn it around for good and will start funding ships... and that's
because i say so.... I'm kinda an optimistic kind of guy, just like you are with russia.


//2012 is really the last year of "slow" Russian procurement under the current GPV and was necessary because the MIC funding program took a year to implement and nonsense like OSK absorbing the Balitsk shipyard had to be taken care of. Beginning in 2013 the good part of GPV-2020 begins and things long paid for start to be delivered. As it stands by the end of the year the lead Gorshkov class frigate will enter trials and the Boiky will be commissioned. The Gorshkov will be the most advanced non-NATO frigate on the water. In 2013 you will see the first 1135.6 frigate of the new Admiral line hit the water and then from 2014 its 2 frigates a year every year. And 20380/5 production is picking up too with the Amur shipyard receiving the first completed composite superstructure for its line of the corvettes. By 2020 you are looking at some 100 new major combatants. The GPV calls for 20 conventional submarines, 24 frigates, 40 corvettes, and 6 new destroyers. The only larger buildup is the Chinese.//


But the sh!t can hit the russian fan and oil prices can stay low for years to come causing russia to cut its defense spending.

A conflict wil iran will probably spike up prices for a few weeks but after that, what then..?



TENSIONS RISE BETWEEN RUSSIA, SAUDI ARABIA:

Russia has more reasons to be upset with Saudi Arabia than its backing of the Syrian opposition against the embattled regime of President Bashar al-Assad, which Moscow supports, according to Joseph Farahs G2 Bulletin.

Now, the Saudis have refused to cut back on oil production, which has driven down the world price for oil, greatly affecting Russias economic recovery. Moscow has hoped that through increased oil prices it could begin to funnel more resources to rebuild its military capability in an effort to keep up with Western military technology development.

In recent weeks, the price per barrel of oil has dropped below $90 for the first time in 18 months. Yet, the Saudis are continuing at the same high oil output to support economic growth.

The output certainly has increased Saudi Arabian coffers, enabling the kingdom to balance its budget, something which other members of the OPEC and non-OPEC oil producing countries such as Russia have been unable to do.

To some observers, this development may have hardened Moscows position toward supporting Assad despite Saudi Arabias backing of the rebels who seek to oust him.

The Sunni Saudi kingdom wants Assad out because he is allied with its arch rival and sectarian opponent, Shia Iran, which is seeking to extend its influence among the Arab countries.

Assad is from the Shiite offshoot Alawite tribe, a minority in a country whose majority population is Sunni.

Saudi Arabias refusal to cut production and thereby raise the price per barrel of oil also is infuriating fellow OPEC member Iran.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/tensions-rise-between-russia-saudi-arabia/?cat_orig=world

If the US decides to drill offshore, Alaska, natural gas, ect ect, oil prices will be very low and affect russia negatively.


But lets get back on topic and talk about how that russian coast guard convoy didn't scare the Japs at all.

Will you able to stay on topic..? No more talking about how the russian navy will have more ships in 10-20 years and will be able
to scare Japs, can you do that..?


-----------------

if you change years to weeks then were fairly close to agreeing.

I don't think you are considering that Japan has already done most of the work already and is just in the position of needing to put all the peaces together and do a few test flights.

Japan has made a political decision not to go nuclear as there official policy, but unofficially if it's forced to by events then it also has plans in place to do so very rapidly.

At this point the biggest part of the GPV cant be unraveled by little old oil prices. Large chunks of it are so called pre-paid MIC investments -- about $94 billion worth and under the law they no longer pay out producers in tranches as a build moves towards completion. When the Russian MoD has a yard lay a keel and the contract price is $700 million the entire 700 million is paid up front. This is done in the hope of quickly undoing 20 years of industrial base degradation. So all those keels you see put down since 2007 at least are fully paid for.

"if you change years to weeks then were fairly close to agreeing.

I don't think you are considering that Japan has already done most of the work already and is just in the position of needing to put all the peaces together and do a few test flights."

Im sure they can cobble together some crude bomb in a few weeks. Missiles -- no way. It takes dozens of launches to get an ICBM to operational status. It takes years. A test firing program can easily run a decade if any problem materialize. Just look at the problems the Koreans are having with KSLV! With ICBM's sh*t is even more complex. Having a design on paper does not even get you half way there. Just subbing out the work will take the better part of a year and the biggest hurdle is quality control for the tens of thousands of parts. Plus, even if blueprints exist the various specialized machine tools required have likely never been built or were built and spent 20 years in mothball and are now likely worthless. You have to come up with entirely novel task specific manufacturing processes and then you have to not lose them because of lack of orders! The brain drain problem is also real. The people who did any initial drawings are likely all dead or retired now. Take a look at what it took to move Il-76 production from one factory to another. All the drawings and IP were there, but the people who did the initial work on the type are all dead so it took 7 years and $1.2 billion to resume production and ICBM's make transport planes look easy.

Just regarding the rust.

Remember these are ship in salt water. Every naval vessel will have a ton of rust after a long deployment. If they don't get painted very often, which can happen easily in Russia's case because they have so many ships the rust will look terrible but not really be of any significance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"deeds, not words"

Shhh! Everyone knows only Russian ships are rusted junks!

The problem is with the destroyer fleet. Sovs are well armed ships, with Mosqit missiles and medium range AAW. The propulsion system with steam turbines and the many technical problems had as a result the navy to decommision most of them. If Iam correct there are only 4 of them in service. 2 with Baltic fleet, 1 in nothern fleet, and the (715) with Pacific.

At the other hand Udaloys are perfect ships formitable with modern propulsion system but completely unarmed. The silex missile has limited antiship capabilities, and in fact is an air vehicle that carries a torpedo witch being droped at 40 - 50km. The air defence is very limided and kinzal is a point defence system. They were designed as ASW ships conterparts to US Spruance class.

The major mistake was the soviet dorctine for a single mission - role ship. Varyag (slava class) cruisers and offcource kirovs were the exceptions.

Is possible to see an update of udaloys with adding of antiship missiles (like Uran) as they did with Kashin class destroyer of Black sea fleet?

Don't forget their 20+ sub fleet that is in exceptional condition.

And their 80+ P-3 Orion.... Face reality, bro!!! Russian navy would not do good in a confrontation with the Nippon Navy.

Like I said, Russians got nuke subs, japs got none. The Japs may have a 100 guided missile destroyers, but one Russian SSBN is enough to defeat them.

In a conventional confrontation.

Thats a fallacy of WAFF. If Russia enters into a WAFF agreement and volunteers to have only conventional force then they will regain their WW2 red army numbers.

Nuclear arsenal gives an edge but they cost a bomb. If today england can say they can stand up against China its only thanks to the nukes, ditto for France. "No nukes" is a strictly tezel term, has no relevance in real world. North Korea today is able to bully south korea only because of nukes, ditto for Iran.

But never mind, carry on bashing the Russians. Russians have hot chics and i take it personally if somebody abuses Russia.

"Like I said, Russians got nuke subs, japs got none. The Japs may have a 100 guided missile destroyers, but one Russian SSBN is enough to defeat them."

Actually the Japanese Navy probably has the worlds second most formidable ASW force.

By the way for those of you counting, the JMSDF has about 58 hulls capable of mounting ASMs and about 20 submarines.

---

There are 19 Russian subs in the Pacific and about a dozen of them are nuclear. As this exercise demonstrates pretty much every ship still in the ORBAT is sea worthy. Wouldn't surprise me if most of the 19 were sortied during this exercise though we will never know.

In the Northern fleet we know from Barents Observer that the Kilos have been busier than usual this year with at least 1 having been returned to the fleet after long overhaul. The PF doesn't get the same amount of attention in the open source so I can't find anything on deployments.

"There are 19 Russian subs in the Pacific and about a dozen of them are nuclear. As this exercise demonstrates pretty much every ship still in the ORBAT is sea worthy. Wouldn't surprise me if most of the 19 were sortied during this exercise though we will never know. "

According to this, there are 13 active submarines in the Russian Pacific Fleet (nuclear vessels in bold);

• 3 x Delta III Ballistic Missile Submarines
• 2 x Oscar II Cruise Missile Submarine
• 2 x Akula Nuclear Attack Submarines
• 6 x Kilo (Project 877)

...but feel free to provide some evidence of the missing 6 boats.

My guess is that the Delta III's have permanent USN nuclear attack boat as a chaperone every time they leave port. The Oscars were very noisy boats (one of the primary reasons for the Delta class being developed actually) so any halfway modern ASW suite should be able to find them at pretty good distances.

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Fleet_%28Russia%29

Scroll to current fleet. Those 13 leave out the boomers. And the Kilo count is slightly off. The Chita is still active.

http://rusnavy.com/nowadays/strength/submarines/chita/


5 Delta III's
3 Oscar II
3 Akulas
8 Kilos

"The Oscars were very noisy boats (one of the primary reasons for the Delta class being developed actually) so any halfway modern ASW suite should be able to find them at pretty good distances."

This sentence makes no sense. Oscars are carrier killing SSGN's. Delta's are city killing boomers. The Oscar II is one of the quietest boats in the water today. They are gigantic with lessons from the Typhoon program incorporated. Their big drawback is they are so big and expensive to maintain. An Oscars running cost is like 2.5x that of an Akula, but its an incredible capability.

Ah I see you are counting boats that have been removed from active service...why I am not sure...but whatever makes you feel better...

K-284 971 Akula Akula I Amur Shipyard 6 November 1983 16 June 1984 30 December 1984 Pacific Fleet. 2001 removed from service[16]

K-263 971 Delfin Akula I Amur Shipyard 9 May 1985 28 May 1986 30 December 1987 Pacific Fleet, removed from active service, status unclear[16]

K-322 971 Kashalot Akula I Amur Shipyard 5 September 1986 18 July 1987 30 December 1988 Pacific Fleet, removed from active service, status unclear[16]

K-391 971 Bratsk Akula I Amur Shipyard 23 February 1988 14 April 1989 29 December 1989 Pacific Fleet, removed from active service, status unclear[16]

K-331 971 Magadan
(ex Narval) Akula I Amur Shipyard 28 December 1989 23 June 1990 31 December 1990 Pacific Fleet[16]

K-419 971 Kuzbass Akula I Improved Amur Shipyard 28 July 1991 18 May 1992 31 December 1992 Pacific Fleet[6]

K-295 971 Samara Akula I Improved Amur Shipyard 7 November 1993 5 August 1994 28 July 1995 Pacific Fleet[16]

K-152 971I/09719 Nerpa Akula II[18][19] Amur Shipyard 1993 4 July 2006 28 December 2009 Pacific Fleet. Has been leased out to India from the end 2011 to 2020.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akula_class_submarine#Units

Delta IIIs (which are considered "boomers")

K-441 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk NA 7 May 1974 25 May 1976 31 October 1976 Pacific Decommissioned 28 March 1995 for scrapping[4] Disposed of in 2000.[6]

K-449 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk NA 19 July 1974 29 July 1976 5 February 1977 Pacific in reserve from 1996,[4] decommissioned in 2001, scrapped before 2008

K-455 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk NA 16 October 1974 16 August 1976 30 December 1976 Pacific in reserve from 1998 to 1999,[4]. Disposed of in 2002[7]

K-490 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk NA 6 March 1975 27 January 1977 30 September 1977 Pacific in reserve from 1998 to 1999,[4] Disposed of before 2008[8]

K-506 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk Zelenograd 29 December 1975 26 January 1978 30 November 1978 Pacific Removed from service in 2010, to be decommissioned[13]

K-211 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk Petropavlovsk-Kamchatskiy 19 August 1976 13 January 1979 28 September 1979 Pacific Active 2010[14][15] retired in 2010[16]

K-223 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk Podolsk 19 February 1977 30 April 1979 27 November 1979 Pacific Active 2010[14][15]

K-180 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk NA 27 December 1977 8 January 1980 25 September 1980 Pacific[4] In reserve from 2004. Disposed of in 2008[17]

K-433 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets 24 August 1978 20 June 1980 15 December 1980 Pacific Active 2010[14][15]

K-44 SEVMASH, Severodvinsk Ryazan 31 January 1980 19 January 1982 17 September 1982[19] Pacific Overhauled in 2007[20] Active 2010[14][15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_class_submarine#Delta_III_.28Project_667BDR.2C_Kalmar.29_14_boats

By the way I was wondering how you knew the Japanese pilots ejaculated in their suits...you weren't helping were you?

More seriously are you basing the "40 ships sortied" on your hypothesis that they also sortied almost every submarine in the Pacific fleet along with the 26 surface vessels?

---

So the best I can piece together is that the Russian Pacific Surface Fleet looks something like this;

• 1 x Slava Class Cruiser
• 4 x Udaloy I Destroyers
• 1 x Sovremenny Destroyer
• 8 x Grisha Class ASW Corvettes (no ASMs)
• 4 x Nanuchka III Corvettes
• 11 x Tarantul Class Corvette
• Total: 29 (21 with ASM capability)

The Russian Pacific Submarine Fleet looks like this...

• 3 x Delta III SSBN
• 3 x Oscar II SSGN
• 3 x Akula I SSN
• 6 x Kilo Conventional Submarines

...that compares to ~60 major surface combatants (all with ASM capability) and 20 submarines of the JMSDF. So just counting hulls, the JMSDF has a roughly 3 (or 2 depending on what you want to count) to 1 advantage in surface combatants and a 25% advantage in submarines.

Note that Kilos B-187 and B-464 are in reserve and have been so since 2007, so therefore I stand by my original assessment of 6 active Kilos in the Pacific Fleet.)

---

^ ^ ^
Damn you and your facts!!!

He keeps avoiding the M1 tank incident.

-----------------

The 3 Oscar's missiles or Slavas missiles have 500km++ range, more than enough to sink half of Japan's fleet without Japs being able to respond with short legged Harpoons.
Ad to that the Tu22M with their huge stock of AS-4 kitchen anti ship missiles and you got the picture.

Soviet navy focused its capabilities on sinking Carrier groups (70+ aircraft) escorted by AEGIS without itself having carriers. Japs only have today AEGIS but no carriers to attack foreign ships.

As long as RN retains the Soviet capabilities and their commie "wonder weapons" they have nothing to be scared of. In some 20 years when all Soviet weapons will be withdrawn, then balance will change but until then Soviet comrades inherited their Capitalistic child's some nice toys to scare any opponent.

Do not forget anytime a single Tu 160 blackjack flies near the islands, the Japs scramble half of their airforce to intercept it, it shows that still they are pretty scared of Ruskies and not vive versa.

"Damn you and your facts!!! "

Yes well I figured it was just irkut chest thumping, and then I read this...

The Nanuchkas have the ASM armaments of full destroyers. At 1,200 tons loaded the Grishas are full frigates by NATO standards and carry more of an ASW punch than a 4,000 ton Perry class so yes they are. They are range limited but Japan is close enough that it doesn't matter.

...and realized he has no clue about Russian warships. For everyone's info, Nanuchka IIIs carry 6 SS-N-9 SSMs which are roughly equivalent to a Harpoon...not exactly a full destroyer methinks. The only missile armament the Grisha class carries are roughly 20 SA-8 Gecko missiles, which are low altitude, short range air defence missiles...which I am pretty sure comes up short when compared to most NATO frigates.

Oddly the one corvette class irkut left out of his (wildly optimistic) assessment of Russian corvettes is the only really dangerous corvette that the Russians field, the Tarantul class corvette, which is capable of carrying 4 SS-N-22 Sunburn missiles.

---

"The 3 Oscar's missiles or Slavas missiles have 500km++ range, more than enough to sink half of Japan's fleet without Japs being able to respond with short legged Harpoons."

Mmmm...what picture is that? The one where the Oscars and Slavas sail around blindly looking for Japanese vessels to use their 500+ km ranged missiles on?

"Ad to that the Tu22M with their huge stock of AS-4 kitchen anti ship missiles and you got the picture. Do not forget anytime a single Tu 160 blackjack flies near the islands, the Japs scramble half of their airforce to intercept it..."

Ummm...you have facts to back that up? Or are you using the "irkut methodology" of debating?

Just to give you a hand, the JASDF has 200 F15s and about 100 F-2s (F-16s)...and you are implying that the Japanese regularly scramble 150ish aircraft...you realize that, right? As for how well the Russian Airforce would handle the JASDF, I think that is another thread.

By the way I see a purely JMSDF versus Russian PF engagement about as likely as me being elected the next Pope, more than likely you would want to include the US 7th Fleet (reinforced with 2 or 3 CSGs from 3rd Fleet) in any kind of hypothetical confrontation assessment.

---

1. The 40 ship number I got from Zvezda TV which reported 40 ships. Zvezda is the official TV channel of the Russian MoD.

http://www.tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201207020944-lk6y.htm

2. In reserve v. active is all BS semantics. F*ck only knows how many of 20 Japanese subs are in overhaul. All of them are surely not active at the same time. Its a double standard to apply one standard to the Russian count and another to the Japanese.

3. The count for the SSBN's is 100% off. The START treaty numbers show 5 active boomers in the PF as of this Spring.

//Yes well I figured it was just irkut chest thumping, and then I read this...

The Nanuchkas have the ASM armaments of full destroyers. At 1,200 tons loaded the Grishas are full frigates by NATO standards and carry more of an ASW punch than a 4,000 ton Perry class so yes they are. They are range limited but Japan is close enough that it doesn't matter.
...and realized he has no clue about Russian warships. For everyone's info, Nanuchka IIIs carry 6 SS-N-9 SSMs which are roughly equivalent to a Harpoon...not exactly a full destroyer methinks. The only missile armament the Grisha class carries are roughly 20 SA-8 Gecko missiles, which are low altitude, short range air defence missiles...which I am pretty sure comes up short when compared to most NATO frigates.//



You can't be surprised.... This is the same guy that confidently said the U.S had no capabilities to
airlift an Abrams tank and when he was slapped silly with evidence, he just kept silent.

To this day he suffers from alzheimer's when it's brought up.


-----------------

1. No disagreement on the Akula numbers. 3 active boats.
2. There are currently 3 active Oscars. No disagreement. I would note though that there are 2 more awaiting overhaul. Zvezdochka is just backlogged, but the fleet is technically 5 strong and there are no intentions of scrapping the Irkutsk or the Chelyabinsk. The Chelyabinsk should still have a decade on it reactors!
3. Kilo numbers are 8 and not 6. Your source says the status of 2 of the ships is "in reserve or active" meaning the writers has no clue. In any case, they are not scrapped.
3. The Delta III number are 5 and not 3, but even if you are going to be picky because 2 of the boats will be retired soon their replacements are ready -- the Nevsky and the Dolgaruki both of which are in the water and the Dolgaruki should be transiting to the Pacific any day now that the Bulava has officially been inducted.

@Mmmm...what picture is that? The one where the Oscars and Slavas sail around blindly looking for Japanese vessels to use their 500+ km ranged missiles on?


PAC has Il-38, Tu-142,Ka-27 + probably some RuAF A-50 AWACS are somewhere near +many ESM platforms. It is not like they are going to fight in middle of Pacific, detectinc Jap fleet somewhere near Russia would not be a prob. But still do you have any ideas what AS-4 (and its new versions) or Granits can do compared to Harpoons?


@Ummm...you have facts to back that up? Or are you using the "irkut methodology" of debating?


I remember they scrambled 22 jets to monitor one Tu-95, plus in 2011 they scrambled jets 175 times only to check Ruskies, you are the computer guy, use Google. and learn to distinguis between irony and reality.


@more than likely you would want to include the US 7th Fleet (reinforced with 2 or 3 CSGs from 3rd Fleet) in any kind of hypothetical confrontation assessment.

Japs luck carrier force, that is their main weakness in any scenario. How are they going to defend against AS-4 flying from 300+++km away? USN developed F14+Phoenix for that role, Japs do not even come close in abilities by just relying on SM-2's.

"1. The 40 ship number I got from Zvezda TV which reported 40 ships. Zvezda is the official TV channel of the Russian MoD."

Fine...produce a list of the 40 Russian Pacific Fleet vessels that went to sea.

"2. In reserve v. active is all BS semantics. F*ck only knows how many of 20 Japanese subs are in overhaul. All of them are surely not active at the same time. Its a double standard to apply one standard to the Russian count and another to the Japanese."

Ummmm...no. Reserve means that the vessel is no longer in active service, does not have a crew and is not receiving the necessary maintenance to maintain seaworthiness. As far as I know the Russian Navy is the only nation that lists vessels as "in reserve", I would assume that is so that cheerleaders such as yourself can still feel patriotic about the fact that the Russian Navy is a minuscule shadow of itself barely able to take on most US allies let alone the US (or even Chinese) Navy...congratulations, you have been reduced to being a cheerleader.

"3. The count for the SSBN's is 100% off. The START treaty numbers show 5 active boomers in the PF as of this Spring."

...and since I have pretty much proven at this point that you just make sh!t up to make yourself feel better about Russian sea power these days, your supporting evidence for this assertion is?


"2. There are currently 3 active Oscars. No disagreement. I would note though that there are 2 more awaiting overhaul. Zvezdochka is just backlogged, but the fleet is technically 5 strong and there are no intentions of scrapping the Irkutsk or the Chelyabinsk. The Chelyabinsk should still have a decade on it reactors!"

...and so you are basing your logical military assessment upon your wet dreams?

"3. Kilo numbers are 8 and not 6. Your source says the status of 2 of the ships is "in reserve or active" meaning the writers has no clue. In any case, they are not scrapped."

Ahhh...no...my source says "in reserve"...which in Russiagenerally means that the the demolition torches are already fired up.

"3. The Delta III number are 5 and not 3, but even if you are going to be picky because 2 of the boats will be retired soon their replacements are ready -- the Nevsky and the Dolgaruki both of which are in the water and the Dolgaruki should be transiting to the Pacific any day now that the Bulava has officially been inducted."

Ahhh I see, you base your assessments of a nations military assets upon unicorns, rainbows and other fantasies you find pleasurable...all the power to you brother. When you wish to debate actual hulls in the water, I will be here...when you wish to discuss unicorns, rainbows and your wildest fantasies, may I suggest this forum for you...

http://easilydeludedrussiancheerleaders.com

...apparently the only entrance requirement for that forum is that you must have the gullibility of an eleven year old to join.

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"PAC has Il-38, Tu-142,Ka-27 + probably some RuAF A-50 AWACS are somewhere near +many ESM platforms. It is not like they are going to fight in middle of Pacific, detectinc Jap fleet somewhere near Russia would not be a prob. But still do you have any ideas what AS-4 (and its new versions) or Granits can do compared to Harpoons?"

Yes but the question (that apparently totally alluded you) could Russia maintain air superiority over the Sea of Okhotsk and the Northern Pacific just east of Japan?

"I remember they scrambled 22 jets to monitor one Tu-95,..."

I can find no mention of this in Google...can you provide a link.

"...plus in 2011 they scrambled jets 175 times only to check Ruskies, you are the computer guy, use Google. [linked image] and learn to distinguis between irony and reality."

NORAD scrambles jets all the time...do you believe that USA is frightened of Russia? And what you are doing is not irony, it is called hyperbole.

"Japs luck carrier force, that is their main weakness in any scenario. How are they going to defend against AS-4 flying from 300+++km away? USN developed F14+Phoenix for that role, Japs do not even come close in abilities by just relying on SM-2's."

So what you are alluding to is that as soon as the USN retired the F14 Tomcat it basically became defenceless against a Russian bomber strike against a carrier task force...and you base that hypothesis upon what? That Americans are prone to idiocy?

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^ ^ ^
Well he really does hope the sh!t he throws sticks and that nobody will spend the time in
researching to call his BS.

A greek tried this crap over at the G&T forum hoping no American would question his BS.

But unfortunately for him, i did!

It was the U.S Carrier task force vs iranian anti-ship missiles, scandal.... lot of butt hurt was witness there.

I don't get this inferiority complex on many WAFFers in here.... and irky is a U.S citizen!

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"...hope the sh!t he throws sticks and that nobody will spend the time in researching to call his BS."

...well there are many people here on WAFF like that...and I am serving them notice...

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^ ^ ^
YEAH!! You serve them..... Serve them deep in their azz!!

Um... Can you ignore that last sentence..? I don't know what is going on with me today.

I reckon I'm in a azz pounding mood.

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@ELWAPO
Why do you spend all that efford to write 3 posts while noone GIVES A SH@T about what you say?

Now back to the main issue


@Yes but the question (that apparently totally alluded you) could Russia maintain air superiority over the Sea of Okhotsk and the Northern Pacific just east of Japan?

Do you know where Sea of Okhotsk is? With 4!!!!! KC-767 Japs cannot maintain large CAP packages far away of their borders or project air power. And Ruskies have Mig-31 - Su-27 + S-300, more than enought to maintain superiority of their part of airspace in the Rus-Jap gap, and definately enable them to operate ASW-AWACS planes, escorted by Mig-31. YOu asked for it but i thought it was RN agains Jap navy only the thread. And Tu22+ AS-4 are RN gear.

@I can find no mention of this in Google...can you provide a link.
No i can't, maybe Irkut posted it here a long time ago but i remember reading it.

@NORAD scrambles jets all the time...do you believe that USA is frightened of Russia? And what you are doing is not irony, t is called hyperbole.
ORLY? Hyperbole, just like irony are Greek words Coalde, i do not need lessons on how to use them.


@So what you are alluding to is that as soon as the USN retired the F14 Tomcat it basically became defenceless against a Russian bomber strike againt a carrier task force...and you base that hypothesis upon what? That Americans are prone to idiocy?

Ok small defence History lesson for you , so next time you will be able to keep a good level on a conversation.

"Once uppon a time, bad Commie Soviets discovered ASM missiles and started eqquiping ships and planes with them in order to sink Capitalistic destroyers and carriers.
USN got some fever because missiles where getting bigger and faster and asked Uncle Sam for money for superexpensive VFX interceprot. They got F14 whose missions was to patrol 250+km away from Carriers with 200+km missiles in order to intercept bad Commie Tu16-Tu22M before they can launch their Commie supersonic missiles on USN arses. Then one day Commies became crazy and destroyed their country, meaning their forces shrunk significantly while their political system was not seeing USA as an enemy. So USN Admirals saw that Ruskies where Capitalists now and not willing to attack them and decided to retire old good F14 and use smaller and cheaper planes like F18 to perform their new main mission, bomb poor and defenceless people around the globe."
Pure necessity and not idiocy.

PS1:Do you know the abilities and flight profile of attack of P-700 Granits or new KH-32M? Best way to stop them is to kill its carrier and i fail to see how Japs can do that with out SSN's or Carriers.
PS2: Nice Poodle you got there(ELWAPO) jumping around your feets. One day i will feed it some bones.....

//@ELWAPO
Why do you spend all that efford to write 3 posts while noone GIVES A SH@T about what you say?

Now back to the main issue //



The main issue was 26 russian naval ships showing off to the Japanese navy, you're fvcking bringing up
other sh!t, malaka!

This wasn't about Tu-22s and T-160s until you brought it up.... Bugger off!

And I'm talking to coalde, not you, precious.


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The Russian Navy is not publishing these lists. Reserve does not mean strategic reserve in these cases. Its just means these watchers who make the list haven't seen the ship in question out at sea recently. A nuclear sub will have a crew right up until the reactor is removed. Now you are just making sh*t up. You can not de-man a reactor even when its parked at pier. These things need monitoring 24/7.

A ship will make news when its decommissioned but it can sit in port for years without going on patrol if it needs a repair and there are no free slipways or no money and the Russian Navy doesnt publicize any of it. The Bystry you see in this exercise is a classic example. It spent a good decade in reserve and here it is floating along merely in service with no press about it returning. There are a half dozen Sov destroyers who could get the same treatment there status is thus "in reserve." In many cases you are talking repairs that run no more than $40-50 million.

The Oscar II Smolensk was listed as in-reserve for years too until it went into the slipway at Zvezdochka for overhaul in 2011.In terms of the Oscars there is a midlife overhaul program for all of them. Zvezdochka has finished its work one the Delta IV mid-life upgrades and now the slipways are free for the Oscars.
http://flotprom.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=97149

Voronezh just recently came out of overhaul and Smolensk took its place. When Smolensk is finished it will be time for the PF Oscars. Smolensk and Voronezh are OLDER ships than the 2 PF Oscars waiting for work to be done on them. There is no way they will be scrapped while 2 older ships of the same class get upgrades. Its simply a matter of there being no shipyard in the far east that can do the work.

//Nice Poodle you got there(ELWAPO) jumping around your feets. One day i will feed it some bones.....//



Poodle..? Feed me..? Can a greek like you even feed yourself..?


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"This wasn't about Tu-22s and T-160s until you brought it up.... Bugger off! "

Your other thread clearly demonstrates this exercise involved elements of strategic aviation too, and there were surely Il-38's, Tu-142's, A-50's, Il-78's and MiG's and Flankers deployed. Hell there were elements of two separate naval infantry brigades deployed on those BDK's and they rehearsed marine landings with Mi-24's overhead so even attack helos got to play. They also wasted a slew of Rubezh shore basef ASM's. The point of this exercise was to the rehearse the defense of the Kurils by invading islands off Sakhalin if that makes any sense. They picked two barren rocks, invaded them and bombed the snot out of them.

"Do you know where Sea of Okhotsk is? With 4!!!!! KC-767 Japs cannot maintain large CAP packages far away of their borders or project air power. And Ruskies have Mig-31 - Su-27 + S-300, more than enought to maintain superiority of their part of airspace in the Rus-Jap gap, and definately enable them to operate ASW-AWACS planes, escorted by Mig-31. YOu asked for it but i thought it was RN agains Jap navy only the thread. And Tu22+ AS-4 are RN gear."

[Sighs to himself over the dramatic drop in reading comprehension here at WAFF over the past few years...]

Previous statement by me you have chosen to ignore: "By the way I see a purely JMSDF versus Russian PF engagement about as likely as me being elected the next Pope, more than likely you would want to include the US 7th Fleet (reinforced with 2 or 3 CSGs from 3rd Fleet) in any kind of hypothetical confrontation assessment.

And by the way, this thread was actually started to "prove" how the JMSDF cowers in their uniforms every time the Russian PF sorties a few rusted hulls...there is that whole "reading" thing again...that seems to challenge you greatly.

"No i can't, maybe Irkut posted it here a long time ago but i remember reading it."

In other words, "I have no evidence to back my claims and have now resorted to making sh!t up to support my argument."

"ORLY? Hyperbole, just like irony are Greek words Coalde, i do not need lessons on how to use them."

Irony - is a rhetorical device, literary technique, or situation in which there is a sharp incongruity or discordance that goes beyond the simple and evident intention of words or actions.

Hyperbole - is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression.

...I will let each WAFFer determine whether your statement, "Do not forget anytime a single Tu 160 blackjack flies near the islands, the Japs scramble half of their airforce to intercept it", had a hidden meaning in discordance to the simple meaning or whether it was a gross exaggeration designed to create an strong impression...English grammar lesson over.

"Once uppon a time...[unicorns, rainbows and illogical assumptions]...idiocy."

Very fitting that you should begin your statement with the classic opening of most fairy tales...since your assumption is that the US made a conscious decision to increase the vulnerability of it's single most valuable strategic asset by discontinuing it's only defence against supersonic anti-ship missiles with no other technology/system in place to deal with it.

Fine...since you present no evidence to back your assertion that only F14s and Phoenix missiles are capable of intercepting Tu-22s and/or Russian anti-ship missiles, I will value your assessment as I do all unsubstantiated assertions (in particular those from obviously biased sources such as yourself)...which is the same probability of reality that I assign to the existence of unicorns and leprechauns.

"Do you know the abilities and flight profile of attack of P-700 Granits or new KH-32M? Best way to stop them is to kill its carrier and i fail to see how Japs can do that with out SSN's or Carriers."

To answer your question, yes...such technical specifications are freely available on the Internet...you should read them someday instead of believing that you know everything already. I am guessing your inability to perceive how the JMSDF could develop tactics and strategies to deal with a threat they have faced for over 20 years is because you lack imagination on how to use all available forces and systems (both singly and in conjunction with one another) at your disposal to their fullest....much like most 12 year olds...I'll give you a hint though, I will bet that the 80 P3C Orions of the JMSDF might come into play against Russian submarines, but that is just theory of mine.

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"The Russian Navy is not publishing these lists. Reserve does not mean strategic reserve in these cases. Its just means these watchers who make the list haven't seen the ship in question out at sea recently. A nuclear sub will have a crew right up until the reactor is removed. Now you are just making sh*t up. You can not de-man a reactor even when its parked at pier. These things need monitoring 24/7."

...so you are saying that the Russian Navy has full active crews assigned to ships that are in reserve, capable of weighing anchor at a moments notice and becoming fully operational?

"A ship will make news when its decommissioned but it can sit in port for years without going on patrol if it needs a repair and there are no free slipways or no money and the Russian Navy doesnt publicize any of it."

...and apparently you also believe that one can leave a vessel in port with little or no maintenance and then weigh anchor in minutes and be fully operational again? ...apparently you have never owned even a small personal sailing craft...

"The Oscar II Smolensk was listed as in-reserve for years too until it went into the slipway at Zvezdochka for overhaul in 2011.In terms of the Oscars there is a midlife overhaul program for all of them. Zvezdochka has finished its work one the Delta IV mid-life upgrades and now the slipways are free for the Oscars.
http://flotprom.ru/news/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=97149

Voronezh just recently came out of overhaul and Smolensk took its place. When Smolensk is finished it will be time for the PF Oscars. Smolensk and Voronezh are OLDER ships than the 2 PF Oscars waiting for work to be done on them. There is no way they will be scrapped while 2 older ships of the same class get upgrades. Its simply a matter of there being no shipyard in the far east that can do the work. "

You know Irkut reading your response I can see just how desperate you are, your response is filled with a whole series of unrelated (and mostly unsupported) "facts" that ignore very critical basic operational limitations of naval vessels which you assembled into a theory that is roughly the equivalent of "Someday my initial statements might actually be factually correct."...to which my only response is that my statement that someday I may become the head of the Roman Catholic Church (which I don't see as very likely as I am not nor ever have been a member of the Roman Catholic Church and certainly not a member of it's clergy).

So if you wish to provide a list of ACTIVE hulls in the Russian Pacific Fleet with some sort of supporting evidence that contradicts the evidence I have presented then by all means, please do. If you wish to discuss what Russian Pacific Fleet strength MIGHT be at some unspecified date in the future...after the planets have came into alignment...the second coming of Christ has occurred...and after at least 40 years have past, please state that at the beginning of your threads so that I may ignore them as the childish fantasies that they are. Thank You.

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