War of 1812: Waging War With the Navy You Have

by Austin Bay
July 12, 2012

Last month (June 18) marked the 200th anniversary of the start of the War of 1812. In this "second round" of the Revolutionary War, a weak, aggrieved yet ornery United States confronted its former colonial master, the eminently powerful but also riled Great Britain.

The diplomatic vocabularies of several current international conflicts echo, albeit distantly, 1812's route to war. Economic sanctions and (backfiring) embargoes aggravated U.S.-British relations. Britain's apparent lack of respect for U.S. sovereignty angered Americans. The forced "impressment" of U.S. sailors into Royal Navy service, usually backed by the threatened broadside of a RN warship, was a Yankee cause celebre.

The British, however, had legitimate gripes. The U.S., asserting neutrality, sought trade with Britain's most bitter enemy, Napoleon. The British argued that American goods strengthened the Scourge of Europe. Oh-so-self-righteous Yankee ship owners must cease supplying Bonaparte's France. The British also suspected the U.S. coveted Canadian territory with good reason.

In 1812, Great Britain presented U.S. war planners with a very challenging strategic problem, one with contemporary irony given America's 21st century military might: How do you wage successful war against a global superpower?

Two numbers illustrate America's quandary. The RN began the war with around 500 warships. The U.S. Navy had 14, though when the war began not all were crewed and seaworthy. Shipping and trade were critical issues to both belligerents, and RN lions ruled the high seas. In comparison, the USN was a poorly funded mouse.

However, as Kevin McCranie demonstrates in his new book, "Utmost Gallantry: The U.S. and Royal Navies at Sea in the War of 1812" (Naval Institute Press), the tiny USN was a talented, courageous, well-led and therefore dangerous mouse.

McCranie, who is a professor of strategy and policy at the Naval War College, addresses the oceanic (blue water) war.

McCranie covers the war's great sea battles, including those of the most famous American vessel, the USS Constitution, Old Ironsides.

McCranie, a specialist in naval conflict in the age of sail, provides colorful descriptions of several engagements. His detailed explanations of sailing tactics, assessments of command decisions and astute use of direct quotations from battle participants add new material to the battle narratives without detracting from the drama. His handling of the Constitution's near capture (July 16-19, 1812) is a good example.

Off the coast of New Jersey, USS Constitution encountered unidentified ships. Unfortunately, the big American frigate had met a RN battle squadron. The chase was on. Then the wind flagged. Fast British cats closed on the agile American mouse. The Constitution finally escaped by "warping," rowing a boat with an anchor ahead of the ship, dropping the anchor to the sea bed, then dragging the ship forward by winding up the anchor chain.

The British commander, Philip Broke, later stated, with evident respect, that the Constitution "escaped by very superior sailing, tho' the Frigates under my Orders are remarkably fast ships."

McCranie always returns to strategic issues, however, which makes this book particularly valuable. With finances squeezed, Congress had kept the USN small. However, the Constitution and her two sister ships were fast super-frigates, larger than standard RN frigates, something akin to an early World War II German commerce-raiding pocket battleship compared to a British cruiser.

Donald Rumsfeld got scorched for saying it, but you do fight the war with the army, and navy, you have. America's naval leadership "embraced active operations, far from American waters, targeting British trade." The tiny USN would not be confined to the U.S. coast. It would fight a trans-Atlantic Ocean war, sinking British merchant ships and stretching British resources strained by Napoleon, with the aim of forcing Britain to negotiate with America. By the end of the war, the USN even sent a two-ship squadron to the Indian Ocean, a small but definitely global deployment.

http://www.strategypage.com/on_point/201207122035.aspx

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

I think the problem with this article is that it assumes that great britain was

a) Keen to prosecute this war (they werent)

b) Allocated vast resources to the war (it didnt)

The peninsular war took up most of britains resources (including its navy)

Obviously the peninsular war was a possible cause of the war of 1812 (impressment)

However i suspect that Britain had not been engaged against napoleon and had actually been interested
in a war with the US it would have sent Significant numbers of first rate ships and forces
under a good commander (such as wellington). I think the tale of 1812 where the status quo was
restored upon signing a peace treaty would have been slightly different.

______
It is an offence for a Trooper to die in bed!

Stop dying at once and when you get up, get your bloody hair cut" - Wintle to Trooper Cedric Mays (Royal Dragoons), who recovered and lived to the age of 95.

I'm always amused at my British and Canadian cousins' comments on the War of 1812. The Canadians say "We kicked your *ss" and theBritish say "We kicked your *ss and we weren't even trying." the War of 1812 was the first real test of the new United States taking on a superpower, even a distracted one and acquitting itself, particularly at sea, the focus of this article, quite well. To suggest otherwise is, well, disingenuous.

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

Actually i would never write that lol

I agree the Us navy did well ..its unsurprising though as so many of your sailors were ex RN

The truth is though that despite privateers disrupting British trade and some impressive victories on a moderate scale the RN was able to maintain a stranglehold blockade on the US.. using a small part of this navy

So no we didn't 'kick your ***'.. but we didn't allocate massive resources to the war either

Oh BTW.. I'm also amused at US sites stating they won this war and it was all about impressment

______
It is an offence for a Trooper to die in bed!

Stop dying at once and when you get up, get your bloody hair cut" - Wintle to Trooper Cedric Mays (Royal Dragoons), who recovered and lived to the age of 95.

It always makes me chucke hearing Canadians say "We kicked your @ss in 1812"... and "We burned down your white house".. when the fact of the matter is, Canadians didn't take part in the burning of the White House, and few Canadian militia ever even stepped foot on US soil during the war.

----------------------------------------------

All US invasions were stopped. The war was a draw. York was burned, Washington was burned.

If Brock and Tecumseh had lived longer that war would have been very different.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"deeds, not words"

I agree the war was a draw.. and also think it was one of the most pointless wars ever

______
It is an offence for a Trooper to die in bed!

Stop dying at once and when you get up, get your bloody hair cut" - Wintle to Trooper Cedric Mays (Royal Dragoons), who recovered and lived to the age of 95.

Well America could have made huge gains if they had taken upper and lower Canada.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"deeds, not words"

Actually i would never write that lol

I know, but that's because you're far too nice.

I agree the Us navy did well ..its unsurprising though as so many of your sailors were ex RN wink.gif

When you consider the lack of unity in going to war and the woeful lack of preparation for the war, it is a bit surprising. Frankly, I thank our Muslim friends for the state of the US Navy at the beginning of the war. Had it not been for the Barbary Pirates and "A Million for defense but not one cent for tribute" there wouldn't have been a US Navy, at all. As to the ex-RN, personnel, well, according to the RN everyone was ex-RN.

The truth is though that despite privateers disrupting British trade and some impressive victories on a moderate scale the RN was able to maintain a stranglehold blockade on the US.. using a small part of this navy

Hardly a stranglehold, but a substantial impediment. In ship vs ship combat, however, that on which the RN had always prided itself the outgunned and relatively inexperienced US Navy fared incredibly well.

So no we didn't 'kick your ***'.. but we didn't allocate massive resources to the war either

LOL. OK, you're not the "we kicked your *ss" crowd, just the "We weren't really trying" crowd.

Oh BTW.. I'm also amused at US sites stating they won this war and it was all about impressment wink.gif

The US met its modest war aims despite its many failures. I think people then still vividly remembered the Revolution where Washington won by not losing and continuing to fight. If viewed in that context the worse it was is a strategic tie.

On a personal note, I have never forgiven the British for the War of 1812. Your support of American Indians, encouraging their rampage throughout the Northwest Territory cost me ancestors. My family went to what is now southern Indiana in 1813 when your Indian allies were burning and killing. Encouraging Indian depredations just wasn't cricket since you weren't REALLY trying and all.


Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

President Maddison's decision to wage war against Britain was the worst foreign policy blunder an American president has ever made.

I am forced to remind our proud American friends that the British troops captured Washington DC and the White House. The crude, dirty British soldiers ate the President's food, from the dishes of the first Lady, in the dining room of the White House, drunk all the wine from the presidential cellar, used the president's toilet, robbed and looted anything of value, and finally burnt the White House, the Capitol Hill, most Government buildings and most of Washington DC.
And if the British were not busy with Napoleon, America might have become a British colony again.

The embarassing defeat woke up the Americans. Never again would they swallow such a humiliation. They set off to make America strong.By 1860 America was already a superpower and Lincoln was strong enough to threaten war against any European power that would dare to help the South.

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

The US wasn't a superpower in 1860. People should really stop abusing that word. A superpower is a dominating country/empire economically, culturally and militarily. In that regard not even the Soviet Union would be considered a superpower as economically ... well you know.

In my opinion, the West has known the following superpowers:
- Rome
- British empire
- current USA

even if militarily speaking the British empire was never that strong on land. So you see, I don't include the Hellenistic world as 1) they did not form a single entity and 2) the world was far too small back then for countries to force their influence far away. For example most of Italy, France and Spain was not influenced at all by ancient Greeks only some small bastions were. And those three countries are only part of the West. If the Macedonian empire held a few decennia it could possibly have made the list though.
France isn't added as they were never overwhelmingly powerful. There were always the Brits, Spaniards, Italians or Germans to block them.
Italy: about the same story as Hellene.
Germany: too much contained.



An unavoidable war is called justice.
When brutality is the only option left,
it is holy.
Machiavelli - The Prince 1513.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"

I'm not American, I'm from Flanders.

I just hate it when a debate about the War of 1812 turns ugly.



-----------------

And if the British were not busy with Napoleon, America might have become a British colony again.

Really? Not much historical knowledge of the Revolution have you? The Brits won almost all the battles in the Revolution. That was with only about a third of the American people supporting the Revolution. By 1812, at least half the population supported the New Republic. The British, Napoleon or not, had no chance of reconquering and holding the US. It was already past the critical mass.

The embarassing defeat woke up the Americans.

The sack of Washington was humiliating, that is true.

Never again would they swallow such a humiliation.

True......

They set off to make America strong.

Economically, yes. Militarily, no. The US has a tradition until 1945 of woefully neglecting defense.

By 1860 America was already a superpower and Lincoln was strong enough to threaten war against any European power that would dare to help the South.

Nonsense. In 1860 the US was pathetically weak. The Entire US Army numbered 16,000 with many of those going South in 1861. The US Navy totaled 90 ships of every type and was similarly disrupted by losses of Southrons to the Confederacy. Europe was loath to support the South so long as slavery existed, despite significant economic incentives to do so. By 1863, Northern industrial dominance and population made Southern victory unlikely. The two losses of Vicksburg and Gettysburg doomed the South diplomatically, making it clear that the best the South could hope for was a stalemate. The fall of Atlanta in 1864 led to Lincoln's reelection in November ending any hope of a negotiated settlement and completely ended any hopes of European assistance to the South. You might want to learn some history before opining.


Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

North and South mobilized 3.000.000 men in the Civil war. They were well trained and equipped, they had modern rifles, artillery and cavalry. How many European countries could do muster such strength?

Let us not say that US was a "superpower" in 1860. It certainly belonged to the Club of Great Powers, together with Britain, France, Prussia and Russia.

I insist that if the British had used their full military might against America in 1812, they would have wiped it out. They captured Washington DC with 4,000 men!

I always laugh when I imagine the crude, dirty British soldiers eating from the first lady's dishes, or raiding the presidential cellar to eat the food and drink the wine!


In this video after 7:14 you can see the shabby redcoats at the dining room of the White House, eating with their bare hands from the expensive plates,drinking and toasting to "Jamie's health!"



British General Ross plundered everything in the White House, among other things he seized the love letters of the President to the First Lady!


We must admit 2 things:
-The Britons humiliated the Americans with great style.
-The Britons did not touch the population of Washington.

Guys, I am not saying this to provoke you. I am urging you to remember that every nation has its embarrassing failures, and it should learn humility by remembering them.
U.S. is no exception.

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

The British are used to the bashing. Allegedly every other nation including, France, the US, Germany, Russia and others, all tactically destroyed us, had poorly equipped, child-like (or actual children) fighters.

By all accounts, the UK's rise to power was a fluke, and not the least by the use of our intellect, bravery or cunning.

@eric - rome was a grand power, but calling it superpower is overkill. They ultimate lost to a bunch of uncivilised barbarians. Alexander's army could be called a superpower, that lunatic invaded every country in the known world and the first european country to invade India. The Mongols could also be called a superpower, they ransacked countries from china to persia.

The superpowers in history:

1) Alexander's army
2) Mongols
3) British
4) Spain (if you count their plunder of south america)
5) France (i know, even I can't believe it)
6) USA
7) USSR

"Really? Not much historical knowledge of the Revolution have you? The Brits won almost all the battles in the Revolution. That was with only about a third of the American people supporting the Revolution. By 1812, at least half the population supported the New Republic. The British, Napoleon or not, had no chance of reconquering and holding the US. It was already past the critical mass.

----

I think attempting to re-conquer the US in 1812 would have been a huge task even if we weren't 'distracted' with the Napoleonic wars there would have been a European power ready to have a pop at us had we allocated such a large amount of our resources. 1812 is an old debate thats been done a whole load of times. In a naval war had our finest been there I'm pretty sure that while the USN handled themselves admirably the RN would have won as proven by Broke in the Shannon. Obviously the USN also had their share of very impressive victories and Lawrence earned pretty heavy praise from RN officers even in defeat. But the fact remains that most of the RN ships sent over were 'reserves' with the majority of the better RN ships/captains engaged in Europe and had more been sent if nothing else RN numerical superiority alone would have likely won the day.

As regards the revolution, i think the US would never have become independent without French and Dutch support and this rather than anything else was the crucial factor in securing independence.

=====
Speaking of the Eurofighters close-in combat prowess, Major Marc Gr�ne, CO of 742 (Zapata), the second squadron of the wing, described to assembled aviation journalists how, on a recent visit to France to demo the aircraft, he had won two out of two battles against the Dassault Rafale in mock within visual range dogfights. Both fights were a standard set-up and merge at 21,000ft and 30,000ft he recounted, adding that the higher the fight the better the Eurofighter liked it. He singled out the Eurofighters excess power as its trump card over the Rafale

1812: The Navys War

The Constitution and the Guerriere
1812: The Navy's War
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Written by: Steven Hoarn (Associate Editor) on July 18, 2012
Categories: Conflicts & Operations, Naval
Tags: Military History, Military History Books, Surface Ships... +
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Cover detail of "1812: The Navy's War," by George C. Daughan.

With the bicentennial commemorations of the War of 1812 ongoing there is sure to be a wave of books covering the conflict on the way. I dont pretend to know the merits of these future publications, but I can recommend one that is already available at a bookstore near you. 1812: The Navys War, by George Daughan, gives the War of 1812 the treatment it so richly deserves. Despite the title the book doesnt limit its scope to the naval action of the war, but broadens to include the politics and land war, which makes it a must read for anyone trying to understand that period in American history.

For a sense of author George Daughans scholarly yet readable style as well as the story of how the USS Constitution earned her nickname Old Ironsides, enjoy the following excerpt.

********

The Constitution had a complement of 456 men and was rated at forty-four guns but mounted fifty-six, including thirty twenty-four-pound long guns on the main deck, twenty-four thirty-two-pound carronades on the spar deck, and two long eighteen-pounders at the bow. (Carronades were small, lightweight cannon with wide, short barrels that had a limited effective range of less than five hundred yards but fired large-caliber projectiles.) The Guerriere undermanned as most British warships had a crew of only 272, not counting the Americans aboard. She was rated at thirty-eight guns and carried forty-nine. On her main deck thirty eighteen-pound long guns were mounted, and on her spar deck she had sixteen thirty-two-pound carronades, two long twelves, and a twelve-pound howitzer. The Constitutions broadside in weight of metal was a potent 762 pounds, while the Guerrieres was a bit more than 550. The quality of the officers and crews of both ships, which in the end would make the difference, could not be so easily measured.

Hull cleared for action around three oclock, ordering light sails taken in and royal yards struck down, two reefs taken in the topsails, and the foresail and mainsail hauled up. While a marine drummer beat the call to quarters, and all hands raced to their battle stations, Hull steered straight for the enemy, some three miles aways now. As the big ship plowed ahead, the crew gave three cheers, even though everyone knew a gruesome, bloody brawl was only minutes away. Hull later claimed there were no anxious faces. He said the men made it clear to him they wanted to lay the Constitution close alongside the enemy and blaze away. That may or may not have been the case, but there was no doubt Hull himself was fixed on a toe-to-toe slugfest, and by the look of things, so was the British captain.
1812: The Navy's War

1812: The Navys War, by George C. Daughan; Basic Books; 491 pages.

Hull was now all animation, Moses Smith reported. With great energy and calmness . . . he passed around among the officers and men, [saying] . . . now do your duty. Your officers cannot have entire command over you now. Each man must do all in his power for his country.

As Hull bore up, Dacres hoisted an ensign at the mizzen gaff, another in the mizzen shrouds, and jacks at the foretopgallant and mizzen topgallant mastheads. At 5:05 the Constitution continued to run down on the enemy, and as she did, the Guerriere fired a broadside, but the balls fell short. A sea was running, and her gunners might not have adjusted sufficiently for the roll of the ships. Dacres then wore and gave the Constitution a broadside with his larboard guns. Only two balls struck, however, and they bounced harmlessly off the Constitutions think hide, earning her the immortal sobriquet Old Ironsides. Hull moved closer and hoisted American colors at the mizzen peak, the foretopgallant, and the mizzen topgallant mastheads, and he made one ready for hoisting at the main masthead. All the while, Dacres had been maneuvering to gain the weather gauge, but finding he could not, he bore up to bring the wind on his quarter and ran under topsails and jib, firing at the Constitution as he went.

Hull responded by setting the main topgallant and closing the Guerrieres larboard quarter. Once there, the Constitution passed to Guerrieres beam, the distance between them narrowing from two hundred yards to a half pistol shot (ten yards). It was six oclock. Hull had fired only a few shots as he approached, but now he let loose a barrage of crushing broadsides, his double-shotted twenty-four-pounders spewing out deadly round and grapeshot. They were far more devastating than the Guerrieres eighteens, and they staggered the smaller ship. Dacres fired back as fast as he could. But in fifteen minutes the Guerrieres mizzenmast went by the board, and her main yard was in the slings, while her hull and sails had taken a tremendous beating.

Dacres was in trouble. His mizzenmast had fallen over the starboard quarter, but its still uncut standing rigging held it fast to the ship, making her impossible to maneuver, and she swung up into the wind. Meanwhile, Hull put the Constitution had to port, crossed the enemys bows, and raked her. He then wore ship and came back across her bows again, delivering another crushing broadside with his portside guns. The two raking broadsides created havoc on the Guerrieres forecastle, and ripped into her sails and fore rigging. At the same time, she had use of only a few of her bow guns. Meanwhile, Hulls sharpshooters in the tops rained musket balls down on the Guerrieres deck.

Dacres tried putting his ship hard to port, but her helm would not answer, and her bowsprit and jib-boom swept over the Constitutions quarterdeck, becoming entangled in the lee mizzen rigging, cause the Guerriere to fall astern of the Constitution. The ships were now tenuously hitched together. Lieutenant Charles Morris leaped up on the taffrail to see if Dacres was forming a boarding party. He was. Boarding was his only chance now. Although the American crew far outnumbered his own, he might get lucky. In any event, he was determined to fight it out hand-to-hand.
USS Constitution and HMS Guerriere

The Engagement depicting the action between USS Constitution and HMS Guerriere, Aug. 19, 1812. Oil on canvas, 32 x 48, by Michel Felice Corne (1752-1845), depicting the two frigates sailing toward each other at the commencement of the battle. Constitution is shown on the right, with crewmen working aloft. Artwork courtesy of the U.S. Naval History and Heritage Command

When Morris saw Dacres preparing to board, he shouted to Hull, and the captain ordered his own boarders to assemble. Trumpets were now sounding on both ships, calling the boarding parties. While waiting for his own men to gather, Morris began wrapping the main brace over the Guerrieres bowsprit to better fasten the ships together. Suddenly, a musket ball, fired by one of the Guerrieres marines assembling to board, struck him in the body, and threw him back on the deck stunned. Lieutenant William Bush of the marines was standing nearby, and another ball hit him, killing him instantly. Sailing Master John Alywin was grazed on the shoulder by another. Despite his injury, Morris somehow stood up and remained in the fight.

The ships now separated unexpecte

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

"On a personal note, I have never forgiven the British for the War of 1812. Your support of American Indians, encouraging their rampage throughout the Northwest Territory cost me ancestors. My family went to what is now southern Indiana in 1813 when your Indian allies were burning and killing. Encouraging Indian depredations just wasn't cricket since you weren't REALLY trying and all. "

I guess from the POV of the indians they were defending their land against invaders?

Anyway to answer the bigger question raised, what would have happened if no napoleon.

The answer is that the war is unlikely to have happened.

1) No shortage of sailors so no argument of impressment

2) The US is hardly going to take on the full might of the british empire.

3) And most importantly the british just know that if they engage in a full war somewhere like america the european powers will pounce.. just look at the american revolution!. France, spain, the dutch all took it
as an opportunity to declare war on a distracted Britain.

People talk about Britain being a superpower at the time.

Id personally say it was an ECONOMIC superpower but militarily not. It was a great power militarily.

Its navy was huge, but stretched across the globe and busy.

Its army was very high quality, but small compared to many.



______
It is an offence for a Trooper to die in bed!

Stop dying at once and when you get up, get your bloody hair cut" - Wintle to Trooper Cedric Mays (Royal Dragoons), who recovered and lived to the age of 95.

I agree with May. If you look at the numbers the Brits fielded during the Napoleonic wars just next to their homeland it was unimpressive to say the least. Yet you expect this number to be much higher when fighting on the other side of the world?



An unavoidable war is called justice.
When brutality is the only option left,
it is holy.
Machiavelli - The Prince 1513.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"

I'm not American, I'm from Flanders.

I think a lot of it was down to politics for britain.

Parliament had to be answered to.

I do wonder, if a dictator had got into power... well Britain at one point was producing
over half the worlds coal and iron (and manufactured goods).

I imagine a 'britain gone mad' under a dictator may have been quite scary back then...

But it was all about profit and trade for britain, hence a huge navy to protect that trade,
and as small an army as could be got away with...

______
It is an offence for a Trooper to die in bed!

Stop dying at once and when you get up, get your bloody hair cut" - Wintle to Trooper Cedric Mays (Royal Dragoons), who recovered and lived to the age of 95.

Causes of the Conflict

Historians mostly agree that the War of 1812 was fought primarily over freedom of the seas and the impressment of American seamen. But there were other factors driving Americas decision to take on the British for a second time:

Desire for New Territories
Pioneer farmers living in what was then the northwestern part of the U.S. were looking for new farmlands, but were not eager to settle the treeless prairies to the west. Rather, the rich, timbered regions of southern Canada were more attractive.

Henry Clay of Kentucky-Speaker of the US House
The leader of the congressional "War Hawks" was Henry Clay of Kentucky, who became Speaker of the House in 1811 at age 34. Clay served in Washington until his death in 1852. Public domain image.

Further to the south, denizens of those states eyed Spanish Florida, not only for farming potential, but because the peninsula was a haven for runaway slaves and Indians who regularly attacked frontier outposts. A war with Britain might give the Americans a justification for seizing Florida, since Spain was a close friend of Britain.

Voters in these hinterland areas reasoned that a successful military campaign against the Redcoats might result in the annexation of portions of Canada and Florida, and thus sent War Hawk representatives to Washington to promote their desires.

Native American Relations
As frontiersmen advanced the sphere of American influence westward, indigenous peoples fought back to preserve their ancestral lands. Encouraged by British agents operating out of Canada, a confederation of Indian tribes, led by a Shawnee chief named Tecumseh, began offering organized resistance. Alarmed westerners demanded retaliation against British Canada to forever dissolve this troublesome alliance.

National Pride
A rising spirit of pride in the new nation also led to the War of 1812. Americans deeply resented British impressment of sailors at sea and foreign insults hurled at the United States flag. Moreover, a substantial portion of the American population believed it was the foreordained destiny of the nation to expand its borders to all extremities of the continent, and were prepared to take up arms to further this cause.

Support for the war was far from unanimous, however. Many residents of the New England states, largely represented by the Federalist Party in Washington, refused to support a war against Great Britain, for fear of harming their lucrative maritime trade. Furthermore, New Englanders worried about their shrinking power in the federal government. New territory would eventually lead to new states. Whenever a new state entered the Union, their political clout was diminished. In many respects, the United States was ill-prepared for war, but the lack of unity was the most visible handicap facing the nation.

http://www.us-coin-values-advisor.com/US-Coinage-and-the-War-of-1812.html

The War of 1812

Chasseur ~ The Original "Pride of Baltimore"
Privateers

During the War of 1812, America's Second War of Independence, President James Madison attempted to overcome the small size of the US Navy by issuing Letters of Marquee and Reprisal to private ship owners. This document allowed its holder to arm his vessel and act as a privateer, or, in essence, a legal pirate, representing the United States. Privateers were permitted to prey upon the merchant fleet of the belligerent nation, Great Britain, and take captured cargo and vessels as prizes. American privateers, many of them sailing out of Chesapeake Bay in Baltimore Clippers built in Fells Point, captured or sank some 1,700 British merchant vessels during the two and a half year war. Other Baltimore Clippers served as cargo vessels to bring needed munitions and other armaments through the naval blockade that the British imposed on the US coastline, including Chesapeake Bay.

Chasseur ~ The Original "Pride of Baltimore"

One of the most famous of the American privateers was Captain Thomas Boyle, who sailed his Baltimore Clipper, Chasseur, out of Fells Point, where she had been launched from Thomas Kemp's shipyard in 1812. On his first voyage as master of Chasseur in 1814, Boyle unexpectedly sailed east, directly to the British Isles, where he unmercifully harassed the British merchant fleet. In a characteristically audacious act, he sent a notice to the King by way of a captured merchant vessel that he had released for the purpose. The notice, he commanded, was to be posted on the door of Lloyd's of London, the famous shipping underwriters. In it he declared that the entire British Isles were under naval blockade by Chasseur alone! This affront sent the shipping community into panic and caused the Admiralty to call vessels home from the American war to guard merchant ships which had to sail in convoys. In all, Chasseur captured or sank 17 vessels before returning home.

On Chasseur's triumphal return to Baltimore on March 25, 1815, the Niles Weekly Register dubbed the ship, her captain, and crew the "pride of Baltimore" for their daring exploits.

The Chesapeake Campaign and the "Star Spangled Banner"

In retaliation for the actions of the Baltimore privateers, the British launched the Chesapeake Campaign in 1814 for the purpose of "cleaning out that nest of pirates in Baltimore." Its goal - to shut down the shipyards of Fells Point and halt the production of the deadly Baltimore Clippers. On their way up the Bay, the British captured and sacked Washington, DC. They burned the Capitol and White House, the only such indignity to our national capital by a foreign power.

Continuing up the Bay, they sought to capture Baltimore by way of a combined land and naval attack. They were rebuffed on both fronts. On September 12, 1814, Baltimore troops fought a two hour battle to delay the British land forces at the Battle of North Point before they reached the City. Fort McHenry, at the mouth of Baltimore harbor, withstood a ferocious 25 hour naval bombardment on September 12 and 13, 1814. It was during this bombardment that Maryland lawyer poet, Francis Scott Key, spotted "by dawn's early light" the huge "star spangled banner" still flying over Ft. McHenry. He penned a description of the sight and his patriotic reaction on the back of an envelope. The poem has gone down in history as our national anthem, "The Star Spangled Banner."

Rebuffed by the Baltimore patriots, the British retreated down the Bay to New Orleans, where on January 8, 1815, they were soundly defeated by Andrew Jackson. The Treaty of Ghent, signed by the British on Christmas Eve, 1814, and by President Madison on February 12, 1815, brought a formal end to hostilities between America and Britain. This time the armistice held. The victory, although a great triumph for American sailing ingenuity and audacity, signaled the end of the era dominated by Baltimore Clippers.

Baltimore Clippers After the War of 1812

With the cessation of hostilities, there was little need for fast, armed schooners with limited cargo space. American commerce required larger vessels that could carry more goods. In the 1840s a new generation of fast large ships evolved that came to be known as Yankee Clippers or simply Clipper Ships. These were three masted, full-rigged ships, that is, they had square sails on all three masts. Although the design and construction of these vessels is generally attributed to New England shipyards, some were built in Fells Point, including the beautiful Ann McKim, one of the largest and swiftest clippers ever to sail.

In the meantime, the owners and masters of the fleet of Baltimore Clippers built before 1815 searched for ways to keep themselves and their vessels profitably occupied after the war. They had three options. They could: 1) enter the emerging China trade, as depicted below in Whampao (Canton) harbor, where delivery of even a small cargo of exotic goods from the Orient could bring a profit; 2) continue as armed privateers, only this time in service to one or another of the Central or South American countries in revolt from Spain; or 3) enter the lucrative, but illegal, slave trade.

Chasseur's history is illustrative of the fate of Baltimore Clippers. Just three months after her triumphal return to Baltimore from her exploits against the British Isles, she set sail for Canton, China. According to the super cargo's log of the six month voyage around Africa, through the Indian Ocean, and up the coast of Southeast Asia, she encountered gale force winds, but sailed well. In Canton, she loaded on a cargo of tea, silk, satin, porcelain and other high demand items for the return voyage. Despite deteriorating conditions of the ship, she set a speed record from Canton to the Virginia Capes in 95 days. This Orient-to-America record held for 16 years until it was broken by the clipper Atlantic in 1832. Her cargo of exotic goods did indeed sell for a handsome profit for her owners.

Shortly thereafter, Chasseur was sold to the Spanish Royal Navy and renamed Cazador. She ended her days as an armed patrol vessel in the Caribbean - ironically in the service of a colonial power.

Thus the era of the Baltimore Clipper had come to an end. However, the tradition of imaginative ship design and audacious sailing flourished in the shipyards of America. Baltimore's tradition of maritime adventure has been rekindled by the Prides of Baltimore.

http://www.pride2.org/history/1812.php

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

Hey MPone

I think when it comes to examining the causes, american sources will tend to emphasise
impressment. And canadian/brit sources will emphasise a desire to invade canada

I guess the truth is somewhere in between

ve

______
It is an offence for a Trooper to die in bed!

Stop dying at once and when you get up, get your bloody hair cut" - Wintle to Trooper Cedric Mays (Royal Dragoons), who recovered and lived to the age of 95.

War of 1812's last battle fought at Fort Bowyer in what became Alabama

DAVID WHITE The Birmingham News
July 24, 2012 - 12:02 pm EDT




MONTGOMERY, Ala. The last battle of the War of 1812 wasn't the Battle of New Orleans, at which U.S. troops led by Andrew Jackson defeated British troops on Jan. 8, 1815.

Instead, the last battle of the war involving significant British and American forces was fought in February 1815 in what is now Alabama, said Jim Parker, director of the Fort Toulouse/Fort Jackson State Historic Site near Wetumpka.

At least 3,000 British troops attacked fewer than 400 U.S. troops inside Fort Bowyer, which was built of logs and sand overlooking Mobile Bay, near where Fort Morgan would be built a few years later.

The fort's soldiers repulsed a smaller British attack in September 1814, but this time the outnumbered Americans lost.

"It's the last battle of the War of 1812," said Parker, who spoke recently at the state archives building about the war, especially battles fought in Alabama.

The fort commander, William Lawrence, surrendered on Feb. 11, 1815, a few days after British soldiers landed on what is now called the Fort Morgan Peninsula.

"They were firing cannon balls at each other. There wasn't a frontal assault," Parker said. Mike Bailey, the historian at Fort Morgan State Historic Site, said the British also fired rockets at Fort Bowyer, just as they had at Fort McHenry in Maryland.

Bailey said Lawrence, cut off from relief by thousands of British soldiers and 38 British warships, "was not going to risk needless bloodshed, and so surrendered the garrison."

He said the battle for Fort Bowyer ended with British casualties of 13 dead and 18 wounded, and Americans casualties of one dead and 10 wounded. "These are the same British units that were at New Orleans," Bailey said. "They came over here with the intention of taking Fort Bowyer and then taking Mobile and then going back to New Orleans."

But he said that a few days after the fort's surrender, the British commander, Alexander Cochrane, finally got word that the Treaty of Ghent, signed in December 1814, had ended the war.

Parker said the Battle of New Orleans is famous, and the later battle for Fort Bowyer is little known, in part because both sides at the Battle of New Orleans had thousands of soldiers.

He noted that the Battle of New Orleans also was bloodier: More than 2,000 British soldiers were killed, wounded or captured, while the Americans suffered only about 70 casualties, according to The World Almanac and other sources.

"The British lost so many people," Parker said. "The sheer scope of it was just so different."

Bailey said the outcomes of the battles also may explain why the Battle of New Orleans is so much better known in America.

"It was a major, major victory for the U.S.," Bailey said. "The Americans are not going to play up a battle that was a defeat."

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/13d185804b4345ea91868fc816fecbe2/AL--War-of-1812-Last-Battle

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

Here's one man's assessment, May:

Remembering 1812

by storiesbywilliams on June 18, 2012 in News and tagged 1776, 1812 invasion of Russia, afghanistan war, anniversary of the war of 1812, battle of baltimore, battle of chateauguay, battle of chrysler's farm, battle of fitzgibbon, battle of lundy's lane, battle of moraviantown, battle of new orleans, battle of plattsburgh, battle of queenstown heights, battle of washington dc, battle of waterloo, centennial of the end of the great war, centennial of the end of world war I, first nations in 1812, forgotten war, general brock, george washington, iraq war, island of elba, lower canada rebellion, napoleon, napoleonic wars, rebellion of 1837, tecumseh, the great war, upper canada rebellion, vietnam war, war of 1812, war of independence, west point academy, world war I, world war II
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Once in a while I like to break from sci-fi to honor major political developments or anniversaries. And since I missed out on honoring those who participated in D-Day on June 6th, I refuse to let this one pass without comment as well. As many are no doubt aware, its the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812, and in many countries, this occasion is being marked and commemorated. For many people in many nations, not just the historians among us, this war was extremely significant.

But what is most interesting is how it is remembered differently. For Canadians, 1812 was a decisive moment in which the country came together to repel a foreign invasion and declare its nationhood in the face of annexation. For Americans, it is remembered as a largely defensive affair in which a second British attempt at invasion was repulsed. For the the British, it was a largely colonial affair that was designed to distract them from the war on the Continent with Napoleon. And for the First Nations of Canada and the US, it was seen a loss which led to further annexation and loss of sovereignty.

And thats just the Anglo-American perspective. If we were to set our sights a little farther abroad, wed notice that people in Russia, Germany, and France also have thoughts of their own to share. For France, 1812 was a major setback in the larger affair known as the Napoleonic Wars. For this stout general/dictator from Sardinia, it was the beginning of the end for his rule and his empire. The Russians accordingly saw it as a great victory against a foreign invader, one which they would exploit in future wars to bolster morale. And for Germany, being forced to fight in Napoleons Grand Armee was a catalyzing event that helped to rouse national sentiment, ultimately leading to German unification in 1871.

Interesting how history can be relative, isnt it, depending on who you ask and what their perspective is? But thanks to my own historical studies, Ive learned much about this war, and can say that they all reflect a certain aspect of truth. In the end, all points of view and how we choose to remember the war tell us much of our national experience of it and confirm that the war was a very large affair that was experienced differently all around the world. I shall be brief, since the real historians are the ones you should be listening to. I just want to offer my humble two cents

The American Perspective:
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In the course of studying American history, I was interested to see just how the War of 1812 was treated. It was no secret to me that the popular American conception is that they won the war here in Canada we say the exact same thing. But what I did find objectionable was the rather glaring ommissions that seemed to pervade the history textbooks on the subject.

For example, so many of the battles which took place on Canadian soil were not mentioned, the focus being on the battles America won and which happened for the most part on their own soil. These included the Battles of Plattsburgh, Chesapeake Bay, Washington DC, and especially New Orleans.

And yet, the best explanations I have heard for this come from American historians themselves. As one put it, Americans, when they chose to remember the war at all, focus on the last year of the war when the battles were defensive in nature. This, he claimed, is what gives rise to the illusion that America was fighting a defensive war which allowed them to think of it as a victory.

Another historian, who was also a General in the US Army, claimed that it is only in West Point Academy that a full and comprehensive treatment of 1812 is available in the US. Here, he claims, officers in training are taught that 1812 is a perfect example of what NOT to do in a war, namely go to war with overconfidence, an underfunded and staffed army, and a divided country.
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And yet another claims that 1812 is Americas first forgotten war, beating Vietnam by over a century and a half. I especially liked this take on it since Im a real proponent of how history repeats itself, just in different settings with different particulars. Seen in this context, 1812 was a less than stellar affair which quickly became overshadowed by the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, both of which were decisive for America and had a far greater impact on their history and development as a nation.

The First Nation Perspective:
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Compared to the other perspectives, this one is by far the most sobering and real. In fact, one could characterize it by saying that this is a case where people were invited to a war, made a big difference, and then were shut out in the cold to be forgotten while the other combatants came to terms and all had their own victory parties. Disgusting really, but it teaches us something about how history frequently screws people over.

For the Cree Nation and the many nations that encompassed the Great Lakes Region, the war began long before 1812. Prior to this, American encroachment led many nations in the Ohio valley to begin to organize and militarize for the sake of defense. Seeing opportunity and common cause in this, the British began arming these nations and making alliances with them, knowing that any invasion northward would effect all. At the forefront of all this was a committed individual named Tecumseh, a Cree leader who was responsible for much of the cultural revival that was setting in and saw potential in an alliance with the British.

When war was declared, Tecumseh and his bands of fighters proved to be the decisive factor in several battles, not the least of which was at Fort Michigan, where they came upon the garrison by way of the river and took the fort with barely any casualties or shots being fired. In time, the collaboration between Brock (the British Commander) and Tecumseh led Brock to give him his overcoat as a personal gift. However, in keeping with his cultural traditions, Tecumseh conferred the honor onto a more senior warrior in his army. Brock was not offended.

During the American invasion of Upper Canada, the Mohawk nation also proved decisive. At the attack on Fitzgibbon, Mohawk warriors mounted a surprise attack on the unsuspecting American army and forced the surrender of over 500 troops. They had been tipped off by a young woman named Laura Secorde, a nurse who had been privy to the American plans while tending to wounded soldiers on Canadian soil.

In just about every subsequent battle on Canadian soil, Cree, Mohawk and Iroquois warriors were intrinsic to the fight. In fact, it would be no exaggeration to say that the presence of these seasoned warriors was often the difference between victory and defeat. Facing overwhelming numbers, the Angl0-Canadian forces were often bolstered by the fact that American troops were frightened of Native warriors, having been subjected to stories about their fearsome, bloodthirsty nature for so long.
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Unfortunately, the war ended for the Cree Nation and Tecumseh during the Battle of Moraviantown (aka. the Battle of the Thames)i n southern Ontario. After the defeat of British naval forces on Lake Erie, British forces were ordered to pull back to where they could be reinforced and resupplied.

However, Tecumseh objected and voted instead to hold the line against the advancing American armies. Though he died and his forces were defeated at Moraviantown, this battle stalled the American forces long enough to give the British and Canadian forces time to regroup. As a result, the Americans were defeated at Lundys Lane six months later and the last invasion of Canadian soil was stopped.

The Canadian Perspective:
As I already stated, from the Canadian point of view, 1812 was a decisive war that saw the country come together to repel a foreign invader. This perspective does gloss over the fact that there were divisions between Upper and Lower Canada, that victory was owed in large part to its Native allies, and that Canada was still nominally a colonial possession of the British Empire. However, the perspective still holds true, as Canadian militia were the cornerstone of the small garrison of British regulars. In fact, Brock chose to dress all of his militia in the same red coats as his regulars in order to give the illusion that he had a larger force. This in turn would play a major role in ensuring the cohesion and organization of his forces in the battles to come.

And to top it off, Canadian forces did succeed in overcoming the odds against a much larger American invasion force. Whether it was the assaults on American border forts in Michigan and along the Great Lakes or defensive actions in Ontario and Quebec, Canadian forces managed to acheive an almost unbroken string of victories.
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These included the Battles of Queenstown Heights, where the American forces that had crossed Lake Ontario and set fire to York (modern day Toronto) were defeated. The Battles of Chryslers Farm and Chateauguay were also decisive victories which forced the American forces to abandon their St. Lawrence campaign, the planned invasion of Quebec. And finally, Lundys Lane, though not a decisive victory, was seen as the final battle in which the invaders were stopped.

All of these experiences served to galvanize national sentiment and helped to inspired demands for reform which would culminate in the Rebellions of 1837. This is especially ironic seeing as how American planners believed that the Upper Canada Loyalists would welcome an American invasion and see it as a chance to throw off British rule. Instead, it inspired Canadians to reject union with the United States and demand a measure of independence on our own terms.

The British Perspective:
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And last, but not least, we have what Merry Ol England thought of the whole affair. Far from seeing it as a mere diversion, the British were actually quite invested in what took place on North American soil, even if they did see it as a distraction from Napoleons invasion of Russia.

For many years, Britain had been locked in a state of cold war with the US, monitoring the frontier with wary anxiety and taking every opportunity to bolster its defenses, either by supplying Native allies or making sure their were garrisons in Upper and Lower Canada and fleets on the Great Lakes.

Though these were by no means comparable to American forces, they did indicate how seriously the British took the prospect of an American invasion. And in the end, Britain felt pretty good about its conduct during the war. Their vaunted General Brock, though he died in the line of duty, organized a stalwart defense of the colonies while the British Navy harassed and assaulted many American ports. Though eventually these invasion attempts were rebuffed, they did meet with some success.

While Brock and Tecumseh managed to seize a series of key forts in the Great Lakes region and burned Detroit to the ground in retaliation for the burning of York they managed to set upon Washington DC and burned it to the ground. This is something which is commemorated extensively on the American side, particularly how a portrait of George Washington was saved before the old White House was set ablaze.

But of course, the defeated attempts at invasion did not go unnoticed either. Whether it was at Plattsburgh, Baltimore or the disastrous assault on New Orleans, it was clear that the war would end with American territorial sovereignty more or less intact. As a result, Britain would walk away from the war undefeated, but without much to show for it.
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But of course, that was ultimately the goal in North America, to repulse the American invasion while at the same time ensuring that Napoleons defeat on the continent was assured. With the signing of the Treaty of Ghent in 1814, and the war with France now over, Britain breathed a temporary sigh of relief. This would end with Napoleons return from Elba, but that too would be resolved with the Battle of Waterloo a year later. For the British, as well as the Americans, 1812 would fade into obscurity, something to be remembered mainly by historians and not popular consciousness.

Final Thoughts:
Well, thats my limited appraisal of the war. For the full scoop, you really need to check in with the historical recreationists, especially those who maintain the border forts along the Great Lakes region. For example, if youre in Kingston, best check out Fort Henry. I remember going there as a preteen and thinking just how awesome the whole affair was. Not only do they dress in period costume and tell you much about the history of the fort, they also conduct actual musket and cannon drills just to keep things interesting and authentic.

Also, be sure to do your own research on this and other forgotten wars of history. Its often because they were so instructive that they are allowed to fade into obscurity, mainly because people would like to forget what happened. However, that is how lessons are avoided and convenient lies allowed to permeate. Those familiar with World War I and the legend of the Stab in the back will know what I mean by that! Had people not been in such a hurry to forget the carnage and pretend that the war was just a big misunderstanding, or that Germany had been betrayed and not defeated, World War II could very well have been avoided.

And for those veterans who fought in the Vietnam War, as well as those returning from Iraq and Afghanistan (two forgotten wars in the making), the lessons of a forgotten war cannot be allowed to go unlearned again. In fact, one could argue that if 1812 were taught in full in schools and academic institutions other than West Point throughout the country, wars like Vietnam and Iraq could have been avoided. When one reads of how men like Jefferson said taking Canada would be a mere matter of marching, slogans like domino effect and well be welcomed as liberators suddenly ring very hollow!

In short, theres a reason history is full of repeats. All too often, it seems that only a select few are able to discern the patterns and realize that this sort of thing has been done before, usually with disastrous consequences. And my father who recently visited Europe as part of commemorative trip would tell you, some people do remembrance right! In Belgium, especially in the town of Ypres, commemorative ceremonies are an almost everyday occurrence. Those who died in the defense of the country and the events which devastated it are solemnly remembered on a regular basis, not just once a year. One would get the impression that these things are important to them!

Okay, thats enough out of me. Happy anniversary War of 1812. You accomplished much, remind us of much, and really deserve to be honored, regardless of the fact that you fell between the War of Independence and during the Napoleonic Wars. I tell ya, those wars are such attention hogs! In any case, I look forward to 2014 too, when the end of World War I will be commemorated the world over, but especially in Flanders where the people will holding all kinds of celebrations to mark the centennial of the end of the Great War. My wife and I plan to be in attendance. I know my folks will be front row center!

Good day and peace be with you, friends!

http://storiesbywilliams.com/2012/06/18/remembering-1812/

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

Really excellent content in this thread; likely one of the more informed threads with an adult maturity level that I have seen in some time. Thanks Mike and the many others for taking the time to provide both historic information and your informed opinions.

Cheers!

Naval Battleships in the War of 1812

When the United States declared war on Great Britain in June 1812, the U.S. Navy was an eighteen-year-old institution with barely a dozen ships to its name. The British Royal Navy, by contrast, had been operating for centuries, and could boast over five hundred active warships. Eighty-five of these ships were sailing American waters at the time war broke out.

In the age of sail, oceangoing vessels were classified by structural characteristics: a sloop has one mast and one deck; a brig, two masts and one deck; a frigate three masts and two decks. A man-of-war, or ship of the line, has multiple masts and decks. The U.S. had no ships of the line, and just three frigates ready for action.

USS United States vs. HMS Macedonian
British and American Manpower at Sea

In manpower, too, the British far outstripped the Americans. The Royal Navy was paying around 140,000 seamen, 31,000 of whom were well-trained marines. The fledging U.S. Navy had about 5000 seamen and 1000 marines.

But war at sea in 1812 would not be a simple numbers game. Britains huge fleet required far more men than were available at any given time, and even with impressment the practice of forcing men into naval service Royal Navy ships were undermanned. Conditions of service were difficult: a monotonous diet, harsh punishments and rough company. An average British crew might include criminals, as well as foreign sailors who felt very little loyalty to the Crown.

The typical U.S. crew might face some of the same conditions, but the young Navy was commanded by a corps of surprisingly well-trained and experienced officers. Many had seen action in the Quasi-War with France and against Tripoli. And while the official Navy might be young, the American maritime tradition was not. Most of Americas seven million people lived in coastal states, and for more than a century, seafaring had been both livelihood and lifeline in North America. This way of life was threatened when the British, exercising their advantage, established a blockade along the eastern seaboard, strangling American shipping and commerce.

HMS Shannon vs. USS Chesapeake
The USS Constitution in the War of 1812

Isaac Hull of Connecticut could claim something of a military heritage both his father and uncle fought in the American Revolution. While his uncle William distinguished himself in the militia, his father Joseph commanded a flotilla of whaleboats on Long Island Sound, harassing the British whenever possible. Isaac followed his fathers lead, and began a sailing career at 14, first serving as a cabin boy on a merchant ship, then progressing rapidly through the ranks.

At 20, Hull received his first merchant commission; two years later, in 1793, he was commissioned fourth lieutenant in the U.S. Navy and assigned to the USS Constitution. He saw action in the Caribbean and the Mediterranean, and sparred with the French navy and Barbary pirates. On June 17, 1810, at age 33, he was given official command of the USS Constitution.

The Constitution was one of Americas splendidly constructed frigates, with a forty-four gun capacity and thick hulls of dense live oak. Not satisfied with forty-four, Hull crammed at least fifty guns on board in 1812.

USS Constitution vs. HMS Guerriere
The ship first gained fame when, under Hulls command, she outran a British squadron in a dramatic sea chase that lasted fifty-seven hours. One month later, in August, 1812, the Constitution encountered the British Guerriere in the Atlantic. The broadside weight of this heavy frigate gave the Constitution an advantage over her British counterpart, easily withstanding the British attack and answering with round after round of punishing cannon fire. When the Constitutions boarding officer arrived on the Guerrieres deck to enquire whether she had indeed struck her colors, Captain Dacres of the Guerriere replied, Well, I dont know; our mizzen mast is gone, our main mast is gone, and, upon the whole, you may say we have struck our flag.

USS Constitution vs. HMS Java
Two more U.S. frigate victories followed that same year. The U.S. Navy could not break the blockade, but early in the war, these sea battles showed the world that Americans knew how to build ships, and how to sail them.

Shipbuilding on the Frontier

In December, 1812 Congress voted to fund another ten of these heavy ocean-worthy frigates but none would be ready to fight for years. In a way, this did not matter. Both sides knew early on that naval dominance of the Great Lakes was the key to victory, since these inland waterways were crucial for supplying any army. A race was on to build lightweight warships for the lakes as quickly as possible. This is where the decisive naval battles would take place.

The U.S. Navy started building a squadron of gunboats and two frigates in the remote town of Erie, on the shores of Lake Erie. It was an odd choice, given that there were no access roads, no foundries, rope factories or shipwrights nearby. But the areas dense forests provided the critical resource tall straight timbers for planking and masts. In fact, the timber resources in North America were one of the several reasons that Britain wished to hold on to the Canadian provinces. Timber on the British Isles was all but gone any new ships for the Royal Navy would be fashioned out of New World wood. Not surprisingly, British shipwrights were also busy building ships on the Great Lakes, in Amherstburg and Kingston, Ontario.

The Battle of Lake Erie

The British captain charged with control of Lake Erie was Commander Robert Heriot Barclay, an experienced naval officer frustrated by the difficulties of maintaining an inland fleet. Supplies and reinforcements came only intermittently, and by 1813 his squadron was smaller in both number and size than the American squadron in Erie. But Barclay was in possession of thirty-five long guns, powerful cannon that could throw up to forty-two pound shot over distance.

Barclays opposite number, Master Commander Oliver Hazzard Perry, had only twenty carronade, a short stocky cannon with a limited range. Perry had more ships, but they were lightly built, with two-inch hulls that could never withstand a hit from Barclays long guns. In theory, even musket shot could penetrate the thin hulls of Perrys ships.

On September 10, 1813 when Perry and Barclay faced off, all the elements of battleship construction came into play: maneuverability, hull strength, broadside weight. Perry had nine vessels in total, but his second-in-command, Jesse Elliot, inexplicably held his ship, the Niagara, and four smaller ships out of the battle. As Elliots ships hung back, Commander Barclay, at a miles distance, concentrated his long guns on Perry and his flagship Lawrence. The result was a bloody massacre. With each hit, the hull shattered into dozens of deadly splinters that were propelled across the deck. Sixty percent of the Perrys crew on the Lawrence were killed.

In what has become a celebrated episode of U.S. naval history, Perry vacated the Lawrence and headed for the Niagara in a rowboat, carrying with him a banner that read Dont Give up the Ship. Once on board the Niagara he had the carronades double-loaded, and continued to trade broadsides with the British. Taking advantage of a wind change, he sailed the ship directly into the British line, then let loose with broadsides from both port and starboard, raking four ships at once. The double-loaded carronades were effective, not only in shattering hulls, but in causing such confusion that two British ships, the Queen Charlotte and the Detroit, collided and become inextricably locked together. Barclay struck his colors and Perry penned his famous note: We have met the enemy and they are ours. Two ships, two brigs, one schooner and a sloop.


Battle of Plattsburg

http://www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/essays/naval-battleships/

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

USS Hornet pursued by HMS Cornwallis, 28 April 1815.

Action between USS Hornet and HMS Peacock, 24 February 1813.

USS Hornet captures HMS Penguin, 23 March 1815
?w=455&h=331
HMS Belvidera vs. USS President, June 1812

Captain Philip Bowes Vere Broke had such a well-trained crew on HMS SHANNON that he was looking for a fight with the USS CHESAPEAKE. Captain James Lawrence, formerly of the USS HORNET, was equally eager, although he and his crew were new to the CHESAPEAKE. Though rated at 38 guns, both frigates carried about 50, mostly 18-pounders. The CHESAPEAKE had a crew of 379, the SHANNON 330. On June 1, 1813, Captain Broke sent a challenge to Captain Lawrence, but Lawrence was already on the way out of Boston Harbor and did not receive it. Late in the afternoon, about 18 miles off Boston, the CHESAPEAKEflying a large white banner reading "Free Trade and Sailors' Rights"came down on the SHANNON and they exchanged two broadsides. When the ships became entangled, Broke ordered boarders onto the CHESAPEAKE. With more than a third of her crew killed or woundedincluding the mortally wounded Captain Lawrence, who reportedly called out "Don't give up the ship!" as he was carried belowthe CHESAPEAKE struck her colors just 15 minutes after the fight began. She became the first American frigate lost during the War of 1812. This painting of the early stage of the battle is attributed to John Schetky. © Mystic Seaport Collection, Mystic, CT, #1964.692

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

The General Armstrong
and the War of 1812

Privateer RAMBLER in the Pearl River, China September 26, 1814.

The neutral Portuguese port of Fayal (Faial) in the Azores. The American privateer, the GENERAL ARMSTRONG is taking on water and supplies. Three British men-of-war suddenly appear in the harbor. Crews from His Majesty's Ships Plantagenet, Rota and Carnation attempt to board the American ship. The British commander, Robert Lloyd, seems to irrationally delay his mission: to join the flotilla assembling in the Caribbean for the Battle of New Orleans. He loses over 200 men attacking the ARMSTRONG (to 2 Americans) and, even after the privateer is scuttled, wanted to pursue the American crew on land on the Azores and "demanded two men, who, he said, deserted from his vessel when in America" from a letter by a British eyewitness on shore on the Portuguese Azores on September 26, 1814. From "A Collection of Sundry Publications and other Documents in relation to the attack made during the late war upon the Private Armed Brig General Armstrong of New York". New York, John Gray, 110 Fulton Street, 1833.


Lith. and Pub. by N. Currier 152 Nassau Street N.Y.
American privateer "General Armstrong" Capt. Sam. C. Reid
In the Harbour of Fayal (Azores), October 26th 1814. Repulsing the attack of the boats containing 400 men from the British ships 'Plantagenet', 74 (guns), _'Rota', 44, and 'Carnation', 18 Guns. The General Armstrong was 246 tons burthen. Carried 6 Nine pounders and a Long Tom (42 pounder;) amid ships and a crew of 90 men. The bristish loss was 120 men killed and 130 wounded__Americans lost 2 killed and 7 wounded.




The Yankee boy that went to sea from 99 to 43. By Horace J. Lane. [n. p.] [n. d.]

Lane, Horace J.

SHELF LOCATION
American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 10

LYRICS
THE YANKEE BOY that went to SEA from 1799 TO 1843

When Freedom in Europe was struggling for breath,
An vile opposition put thousands to death
She spread out her wings, and flew over the sea,
And she here built her nest in this land of the free,

She cherished her brood with a vigelent care,
And showed them of tyranny how to beware.
And when they were tempted with green and Bohea,
Said freedom come boys let us pour out the Tea,

Plain truth was their standard, they stuck to their Dame,
They battled for justice, they played a right game
The tyrants of Briton were force'd to flee,
And Heaven o'ershadowed this land of the Free.

In the year 89 as my parents did say
I drew my first breath on a cold winters day,
But a friend that came with me, has warmed me with cheer
For our good Constitution just then did appear.

In the year 99 when I was a small boy
I entered a ship in our nations employ
The French were then capturing our ships on the sea
But we forced them to strike to the Flag of the Free.

Some Frenchmen would fight us and others would run,
We chased them so close that we took 21,
And when we got Home I was happy to see,
We had brightened the stars and the stripes of the Free

Then greedy proud Britons were ill at their eese
To see our trade flourish all o'er the high seas
Our seamen they pressed in their Navy to be,
And Grossly insulted our Flag of the Free.

In my own country ships I delighted to sail,
And ride on the wave, in the calm or the gale,
From one of these ships I was dragged away,
Three years as a slave in their Navy to stay.

When my prospect was fair to be useful through life,
I was cast in a den of confusion and strife,
Their viceous example was satans best school,
So when they had stole me they made me their fool.

They tried all their skill for to Baffle our trade,
They thought they could keep us poor Yankees affraid.
And when we resisted in 12 and 14,
Their vengence was great, and their malice was keen.

In all of those troubles I had to be there,
Imprest and in prison and in Battles did share,
In the Brig General Armstrong I was in Fayal,
Where poor British Seamen by scores had to fall.

Since the year 89 many changes I've seen'
Under all of our Presidents now just 15
I came with the first one with honour and fame,
And I hope with this last one to share just the same.

I know very well what George Washington said,
He speaks to me now though he long has been dead,
He said if our nation will always be Free,
Each man for himself must a Moral man be.

I have had a long life mixt with pleasure and pain,
But I know that Gods Mercy has not been in vain,
For Jesus has showed me the Truth, Life and way,
And I know he does help me his call to obey.

This is my own experience, Composed and written by myself, no Fiction.

HORACE J. LANE.


From John Van Duyn Southworth, 1904-1986 (used with permission), Age Of Sails: war at sea, New York, Twayne Publishers, 1968: While the peace negotiations were in progress, Britain was preparing the greatest blow of the war. This was to be an attack on New Orleans, to seize control of the mouth of the Mississippi and provide the basis of a British-dominated Indian territory west of the Appalachian Mountains. A formidable fleet and a vast army headed by Sir Edward Packenham were sent to make sure that the conquest could not fail.

Inadvertently, the American privateer General Armstrong did much to spoil the British plans. On September 25, 1814, this little ship, commanded by Captain Samuel Reid, was lying peacefully in the neutral harbor of Fayal, in the Azores, when three British warships appeared: Plantagenet (74 guns), Rota (38), and Carnation(18), Captain Lloyd, in command of the three had every good reason to leave the little privateer alone. The laws of neutrality demanded it. More important, he was under orders to rendezvous at Fayal with the frigates Thais and Calypso and then proceed directly to the Louisiana coast, where the buildup for the invasion was about to begin. Nothing so unimportant as the elimination of a privateer should be allowed to jeopardize this mission.

Captain Lloyd thought otherwise. He hated privateers and could not pass up an opportunity to capture or destroy one. Four well-manned boats from the Carnation tried to sneak up on the General Armstrong and take her quietly by assault. They were quickly spotted. Captain Reid himself aimed the Long Tom that sent them back, battered and with their crews decimated.
Click here for a larger image

Night battle of the Privateer Brig "General Armstrong" of New York
From a painting by Emanuel Leutze (who also painted "Washington Crossing the Delaware"). We are in search of a better copy of this painting shown here from an old book plate.

Very well! Now came twelve cannon-armed barges from Rota and Plantagenet. Again the Long Tom spoke, but the barges kept on coming, firing their own guns as they approached. They reached the privateer s side, and the British tars and marines went swarming up onto the deck, crying No quarter! No quarter! Kill the pirates! That cry was a mistake for it drove the Armstrong s crew into a battle of desperation. The boarders were forced over the side and driven off, their boats and thirty-four dead.

If boats and barges couldn't t do it, ships could! The Carnation ran out her guns and moved into range. Three hours later, she moved out again, her main topmast down, her bowsprit shattered, and fifteen of her men dead.

But the string had run out. All three of the ships were coming in now, bent on annihilating the saucy little privateer. Captain Reid was a brave and resourceful man, but he could see no chance of resisting 130 guns with 14. The General Armstrong was scuttled where she lay, while Reid and his crew made for the safety of the shore. There they commandeered an old castle and prepared to sell their lives dearly. They were attacked no further.

Captain Lloyd had made a serious mistake. He had lost 65 men killed and 117 wounded. Carnation was so badly damaged that she could not proceed. Thais and Calypso, when they arrived, had to be used for transporting the wounded to British bases. The invasion had been delayed nearly a month.

It was a vital month. During the time so providentially provided, General Andrew Jackson had time to reach New Orleans, to gather and organize his rag-tag defensive forces, and even to make an unnatural alliance with Jean Lafitte, the pirate. The American defenders were pathetically few and deplorably weak, but they were now as ready as they could ever expect to be.

From Fletcher Pratt (1897-1956), The Navy, a history; the story of a service in action, Garden City, N.Y., Garden City Pub. Co., [1941]

...............the Louisiana force had been calculated amply for the business, but it stumbled over one of those damned Yankee pirates when the naval chief lost his temper, forfeited surprise and from that moment was doomed to sprawl. It happened at Fayal in the Azores; Captain Lloyd of His Britannic Majesty's Navy put in there with Plantagenet, 74 (guns), Rota., 38, Carnation, 18, carrying some of the troops and most of the artillery for the New Orleans attack, having named that place as the rendezvous for two more ships, Thais and Calypso, coming from Spain with officers and powder.

A brig lay near the shore, recognizable as an American privateer -- General Armstrong of New York, 14 guns, commanded by Captain Samuel Reid, a remarkable man who was later to invent lightships and the present arrangement of the American flag. The port was neutral but the opportunity of suppressing one of these pests seemed too good to missed; Lloyd ordered out Carnation's boats to go in and take her-- a sloop's men get little chance of glory, and this would be good training for them. The boats were four in number and had huge crews, --but the privateer opened on them a fire so coolly accurate that after fifteen minutes of it they went crawling away, crying for mercy.

This made Captain Lloyd very angry; he sent a note through to the Portuguese governor demanding that the privateer be given up. Reid sent back word that if Lloyd wanted him he should come and get him so the British captain prepared to do that. He ordered out the big barges from Rota and Plantagenet, twelve in all with four hundred men, a gun apiece and ordered to give no quarter when they capture the pirate. Just before midnight it came on dark, but not altogether, for the shock of cannon in the first fight had brought the whole town to the rooftops, and the waterfront blazed with fires. In that fitful light the British drew together, gave three cheers and pulled for the privateer, firing their boat-guns as they came. Reid handled General Armstrong's Long Tom himself and hit them hard; for a moment they seemed to stagger, then rushed in and laid her aboard, fore and aft and at the sides. At the stern they could not reach the deck; forward they shot down Reid's lieutenant and were on the forecastle for moment, shouting No quarter!" but Reid led his men from aft in a hurricane charge that tumbled them back. "The Americans fought more like bloodthirsty savages than anything else"; that No quarter ! cry had roused them.

They rushed into the boats sword in hand and put every soul to death. Some barges were left without a single man to row them, others with three or four. For three days after the battle boats floated ashore full of dead bodies." Two of Rota's and one of Plantagenet's remained with the privateersmen; of the seventy-five men in them only eighteen escaped with their lives, and they by swimming ashore.

The end was not yet; Carnation warped in in the morning to try long-range gunnery, but before noon warped out again with her main-topmast down, her bowsprit shot through and fifteen men dead. Captain Lloyd was wild with anger now. The fighting had cost him 210 killed, 140 wounded, including all Rota officers and four of Plantagenet s lieutenants.

He sent another note to the governor that he was going to take that privateer if he had to lay the town in ruin and when Reid anticipated him by scuttling the brig, demanded the Americans be given up on penalty of sacking Fayal. Reid and his men retired to an "old Gothic castle," broke down the drawbridge an dared Lloyd to come on. By this time a little sense was beginning to percolate into the British skull; Lloyd growled and gave it up, but when Thais and Calypso came they had to turn back with the wounded while Lloyd waited for new men and officers. It cost the expedition three weeks to refit, and in those three weeks Andrew Jackson reached New Orleans with the riflemen of Tennessee and the pirates of Barataria to set the stage for his farewell to glory on the frost-strewn plain of Chalmette.



Ship JANSON cut through by Texel River IceFrom Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), ( Pres. of the U.S. 1901-1909), The naval war of 1812; or, The history of the United States navy during the last war with Great Britain, to which is appended an account of the battle of New Orleans: by Theodore Roosevelt, New Knickerbocker ed. PUBLISHER :New York, London, G. P. Putnam's sons [1927, c1910] DESCRIPTION :437 p. front.,illus. 214 cm. SUBJECT(S) :United States. Navy -- History -- War of 1812 New Orleans, Battle of, 1815 United States -- History -- War of 1812 -- Naval operations

On the 26th of September, while the privateer-schooner General Armstrong of New York, Captain Samuel C. Reid, of 1 long 24 gun, 8 long 9's, and 90 men, was lying at anchor in the road of Fayal, a British squadron, composed of the Plantagenet, 74 guns, Captain Robert Floyd, the Rota, 38 guns, Captain Philip Somerville, and the Carnation, 18 guns, Captain George Bentham, hove in sight. One or more boats were sent in by the British, to reconnoiter the schooner, as they asserted, or, according to the American accounts, to carry her by a coup de main. At any rate, after repeatedly warning them off, the privateer fired into them, and they withdrew. Captain Reid then anchored, with springs on his cables, nearer shore, to await the expected attack, which was not long deferred. At 8 P. M. 4 boats from the Plantagenet and 3 from the Rota, containing in all 180 men under the command of Lieutenant William Matterface, first of the Rota, pulled in toward the road, while the Carnation accompanied them to attack the schooner if she got under way. (TR s note: James, VI, 509. Both American accounts say 12 boats, with 400 men and give the British loss as 250. I take each side' s statement of its force and loss, as usual.) The boats pulled in under cover of a small reef of rocks, where they lay for some time, and about midnight made the attack. The Americans opened with the pivot-gun, and immediately afterward with their long 9's, while the boat replied with their cannonades, and, pulling spiritedly on amid a terrific fire of musketry from both sides, laid the schooner aboard on her bow and starboard quarter. The struggle was savage enough, the British hacking at the nettings and trying to clamber up on deck, while the Americans fired their muskets and pistols in the faces of their assailants and thrust the foremost through with their long pikes. The boats on the quarter were driven off, but on the forecastle all three of the American lieutenants were killed or disabled, and the men were giving back when Captain Reid led all the after-division up and drove the British back into their boats. This put an end to the assault.

Two boats were sunk, most of the wounded being saved as the shore was so near; 2 others were captured and but three of the scattered flotilla returned to the ship. Of the Americans, 2 were killed, including the second lieutenant, Alexander O. Williams, and 7 were wounded, including the first and third lieutenants, Frederick A. Worth and Robert Johnson. Of the British, 34 were killed and 86 were wounded; among the former being the Rota's first and third lieutenants, William Matterface and Charles R. Norman, and among the latter her second lieutenant and first lieutenant of Marines, Richard Rawle and Thomas Park. The schooner s long 24 had been knocked off its carriage by a carronade shot but it was replaced and the deck cleared for another action. Next day the Carnation came in to destroy the privateer, but was driven off by the judicious use the latter made of the "Long Tom.". But affairs being now hopeless, the General Armstrong was scuttled and burned, and the Americans retreated to the land.

The British squadron was bound for New Orleans, and, on account of the delay and loss that it suffered it was late in arriving, so that this action may be said to have helped in saving the Crescent City. Few regular commanders could have done as well as Captain Reid.


Letter from Captain Robert Lloyd,
September, 1814,
after the scuttling of the General Armstrong.
(from the Public Record Office, Kew, England. Used with permission.)



See details below

Lloyddoc1.jpg (133964 bytes)



Robert Lloyd Esq., Captain of His Majesty's Ship Plantagenet

To his Excellency the Governor of Fayal

Sir,

Having been informed that several British Subjects are among the Crew of

the late American Privateer General Armstrong now on Shore, and that two of

them in particular, formerly belonging to His Majesty's Ship Guerriere,

where I had the Honour to command her, I am induced to request you will from

the good Understanding subsisting between your Royal Master Prince Regent of

Portugal and His Britannic Majesty's the above men to be

given up to me as Traitors to their king and Country that they may be sent

to England and tried according to the Law of Nations for their Offence.


And in Consequence of the great number of American Seamen now on Shore and

from the Knowledge of their general Conduct I have not the least Doubt they

will attempt to seize on some British Subject (?) when unprotected by the

Presence of His Britannic Majesty's Ships. I have(?) to beg you will either

cause them immediately to leave the Island or be put in Confinement that the

above Event may be avoided. Otherwise I shall be under the Necessity of

leaving one of the Ships under my Orders to cruize (sic) off this Port for

the Protection of British Property and prevent American Privateers

rendezvousing in the Roads.



I have the Honor to be

Sig./ Robt Lloyd Captain

To His Excellency the

Governor of Fayal

http://bobrowen.com/warof1812/

Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

Pomi and yankie history".......... Yawn


It is like discussing Lada and Trabant .... Ok which is more lame?




Oh pls continue

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

Pomi and yankie history".......... Yawn


It is like discussing Lada and Trabant .... Ok which is more lame?




Oh pls continue

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

I know, Prado, this is awfully subtle but I hope you getit.



Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.

nice title...

who gave it to you?


a) your community college teacher?

b) or the Refrigerator dealer who you went to buy a cupboard from?

---

Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia



Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFHlzP69n9c

---

I found the articles interesting. Thanks for posting.

=====
Speaking of the Eurofighters close-in combat prowess, Major Marc Gr�ne, CO of 742 (Zapata), the second squadron of the wing, described to assembled aviation journalists how, on a recent visit to France to demo the aircraft, he had won two out of two battles against the Dassault Rafale in mock within visual range dogfights. Both fights were a standard set-up and merge at 21,000ft and 30,000ft he recounted, adding that the higher the fight the better the Eurofighter liked it. He singled out the Eurofighters excess power as its trump card over the Rafale

There appears to have been some interest in the story of the USS Constitution sailing so I thought we might add here some of her "Sisters."



The USS United States, a naval frigate launched in 1797, was commanded by Capt. Stephen Decatur during the War of 1812.

Library of Congress, Washington, D.C.



The USS United States captures the HMS Macedonian


USS United States

Here's a book review on the First Six:

The Six Frigates Birth of the US Navy
Posted on March 27, 2011 by Rick Spilman

Two hundred and seventeen years ago today, March 27, 1794, the United States Congress authorized the construction of six frigates, the first ships of the United States Navy, the USS Constitution, the USS Chesapeake , the USS Constellation , the USS President, the USS United States, and the USS Congress. The ships were designed to be heavy frigates longer and faster than the conventional frigates of their day, able to stand and fight against any ships their size and fast enough to evade larger ships of the line. Innovative structural design involving diagonal bracing allowed US shipbuilders to build longer and faster frigates than was previously thought practical. The ships more than held their own against the Royall Navy. The six frigates were also significantly over budget and delivered later than anticipated, a tradition proudly upheld in military contracting to this day.

The USS Constitution , nicknamed Old Ironsides, is still in service and is the is the worlds oldest floating commissioned naval vessel. (HMS Victory is older but has been in drydock since 1922.)

For those who wish to learn more, Ian Tolls Six Frigates: The Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy was released in 2008. Publishers Weekly wrote of the book: Toll provides perspective by seamlessly incorporating the eras political and diplomatic history into his superlative single-volume narrativea must-read for fans of naval history and the early American Republic.

http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2011/03/27/the-first-six-frigates-birth-of-the-us-navy/


Nemo me impune lacesset,

---

"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little. It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny. Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation." John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.