Did you actually read the article? It didn't say it was an Iranian boat. It said it was a small civilian boat (never mentioning the nationality), and went on to say Iran uses small fast moving boats "similar" to the one shot.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 16 2012, 8:56 PM
I was just reading this on the BBC..
They said it was unknown nationality.. Iran was not even mentioned
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 16 2012, 11:44 PM
Either UAE or India according to latest report.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:53 AM
If a US Warship tells you to stop approaching them I would suggest you heed their warning. Especially after you take a warning shot across the bow. Just ask the crew of the Cole how situations like that can go.
I thought you Indians were supposed to be a little smarter than the Pakistanis who like to fire on our ppl from border posts and then cry when we annihilate them.
Let it be a lesson learned I guess.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 12:13 PM
We don't know what really happened. All this is just USN version of the story. I don't think fishermen version is available yet.
Approaching the paranoid USN ships is a bad idea especially after Cole. But whats with the Indians smarter than Paki comment? They are genetically the same people. Pakis just have been infected by the islamic bug.
@Vulva_donkey, have you stopped counting yet how many of your euro reject toilet cleaners been killed by PKK yet? Or still mouring the two flying eseks shot down by araps?
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 12:23 PM
^ Warning shot or not, shooting a fishing boat in Dubai is real strange, especially from supposedly most experienced/powerful navy. Anyways, regarding your "I thought you Indians were supposed to be a little smarter than the Pakistanis" comment, don't think the captain of the boat would be Indian.
BTW the US ambassador to India, Nancy Powell, telephoned foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai on Tuesday morning to convey her regret for the loss of life and assured that the US government would conduct full investigation.
Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 12:44 PM
Like I said, when the USN is deployed they do not eff around. If you get close you are gonna be warned off. If you continue you get one across your bow. If you still continue you get dead. Pretty simple.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 12:59 PM
And like I said, it does reveal a heightened sense of paranoia among USN regarding the Iranian threat. Any other region of the world, this wouldn't have happened.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 1:31 PM
Any other region of the world, this wouldn't have happened.
Interesting speculation. Any evidence?
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 1:52 PM
I think its not specific to this region. USN is permanently paranoid of small private boats now in all region of the world. But of course in west asia region it reaches the heights since this is where Cole happened and now Iran training swarms of small boats.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 1:57 PM
Times says the passengers were Indian.
Regardless of the nationality of those on board they weren't the smartest in the world. Especially in a region where tensions have recently been so high if i was in a boat that was first warned to stay away then had warning shots fired at it I'd have got out of there as quick as possible! Of course their deaths are tragic but you have to feel avoidable had they only heeded the warnings.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 5:58 PM
Navy Supply Ship Fires on Vessel Off Dubai
Jul 16, 2012
Military.com| by Richard Sisk
usns rappahannock 428x285
The Navy's Fifth Fleet in Bahrain reported that a Navy security team aboard the USNS Rappahannock, a supply ship from the civilian-crewed Military Sealift Command, fired a burst from a .50-caliber machinegun at a fast approaching motorboat in the Gulf, possibly killing one aboard.
The motorboat, described as a "small, white pleasure craft," ignored repeated alerts from the Rappahannock, including warning shots, to turn away and kept closing at high speed, the Fifth Fleet statement said.
"When those efforts failed to deter the approaching vessel, the security team on the Rappahannock fired rounds from a .50-caliber machine gun, " the statement said.
The small boat then backed off and appeared to resume its original course to the United Arab Emirates port of Jebel Ali. The incident was under investigation.
The Rappahannock is a 677-foot Sealift Command oiler with a mainly civilian crew that will take aboard Navy security teams in contested areas.
Earlier today, the Pentagon announced the carrier Stennis and its strike group will do a quick turnaround at its homeport in Bremerton, Wash., and head back to sea four months early to keep a two-carrier presence in the Persian Gulf amid rising tensions.
Officials said the request for the Stennis to go to the Gulf came from Marine Gen. James Mattis, head of the Central Command, who was in Baghdad Sunday and heard pleas from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to speed up U.S. arms deliveries to defend Iraqi airspace, the officials said.
Iran has protested Iraq's agreement with the U.S. to buy surveillance drones and 36 F16 strike fighters as part of a $16 billion arms package.
The Stennis will "help support existing naval forces as well as respond to a wide range of contingencies" in the Gulf, where Iran has threatened to shut down the Straits of Hormuz chokepoint in the event of a U.S. or Israeli airstrike on its nuclear programs, said chief Pentagon spoeksman George Little.
The Stennis is expected to arrive in the Gulf by "late summer" to replace the carrier Enterprise. The carrier Eisenhower is already underway to replace the carrier Lincoln in the Gulf. But there will be no overlap in the movement of the carriers that would leave three carriers on station in the Gulf, Pentagon officials said.
"This is about a wide range of security interests but we're always mindful of the challenge posed by Iran," Little said. He added that "Syria obviously is something that's a top national security priority for the U.S."
Former Gov. Mitt Romney (R-Mass.) has hammered on President Obama for failing to keep pressure on Iran, but Little said the early deployment of the Stennis "has nothing to do with presidential politics. It has nothing to do with the election season."
The Stennis returned to Bremerton in March after a seven-month deployment in which the carrier launched the Navy's final air reconnaissance mission over Iraq.
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 7:18 PM
Here is the fishermen's version of story,
==========
"We had no warning at all from the ship, we were speeding up to try and go around them and then suddenly we got fired at," 28-year-old Muthu Muniraj told Reuters from hospital, his legs punctured by the rounds of the U.S. craft's .50-caliber gun.
"We know warning signs and sounds and there were none; it was very sudden. My friend was killed, he's gone. I don't understand what happened."
"We were fishing and then on the way back they started shooting at us, so many shots, like a storm," said 35-year-old Muthu Kannan, who had a gunshot wound to the abdomen and a lower leg wired into place with metal rods.
"This is not the first time for us to go out in the boat and we all know what a warning is," said 26-year-old Pandu Sanadhan. "All I can remember is a lot of shooting."
==========
And here USN talking about paranoia of Iranians small boats. (For Provost)
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The US Navy said in February that Iran had built up its naval forces in the Gulf and prepared boats that could be used in suicide attacks.
"They have increased the number of submarines ... they increased the number of fast attack craft," said Vice Admiral Mark Fox, commander of US naval forces in the region.
"Some of the small boats have been outfitted with a large warhead that could be used as a suicide explosive device. The Iranians have a large mine inventory."
Indian fishermen say US boat fired without warning
"Indian fishermen who survived a hail of gunfire from a US navy boat off the coast of the United Arab Emirates disputed US claims that their boat drew fire after ignoring warnings to steer clear of the American vessel."
"A day after a U.S warship fired on a fishing boat, killing an Indian and injuring three more, a top official of the United Arab Emirates appeared to be contradicting the American version that the smaller vessel was off course and approached the navy ship in a dangerous way.
The primary investigation confirms that the boat was in its right course and did not pose any danger. The shooting was clearly a mistake, Dahi Khalfan Tamim, Dubais influential police chief, was quoted as saying by the UAE daily The National."
===========================================
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 7:32 PM
@Coalde, Agreed. I thought so too. But there was no warning as per them. There are too many possibilities about what happened. May be there was no warning, may be they warned but it was too faint, may be some trigger happy USN men, may be fishermen's idea of warning was different and wrong maneuver. I guess no one will ever know here for sure.
I guess there should be better communications in host countries where USN operates nearby and clear guidelines on how to act and react for the sea faring civilians.
This message has been edited by the-me on Jul 17, 2012 7:33 PM
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"UAE authorities have already contradicted the core argument of the U.S. version, that the incident took place in international waters, outside the territorial jurisdiction of the Gulf nation.
Contrary to the U.S. position that the event occurred 30 miles (48 km) south-west of Dubai as reported in The New York Times, local authorities maintain that the fishing boat was shot near the mouth of the Jebel Ali Port in the Emirate of Dubai.
Official sources, who wished to remain anonymous, said the incident took place at a distance of 16 km off the port of Jebel Ali, well within UAE waters"
===========================================
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(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 9:08 PM
So let me make sure I understand. These poor innocent Indian fisherman were approaching a US Naval Ship at high speed and the vicious bloodthirsty American simply opened fire on them for fun and profit. That's the story? Considering the ROE involved, I find that very hard to believe. If it is true, however, I suppose that might serve as a warning to small boats not to approach US vessels at high speed. A valuable object lesson. I do know that US security personnel are a tad sensitive to high speed boats approaching their vessels and what would happen to them if the boat had hostile intent so I might have fired, as well.
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 9:38 PM
\\So let me make sure I understand. These poor innocent Indian fisherman were approaching a US Naval Ship at high speed and the vicious bloodthirsty American simply opened fire on them for fun and profit. That's the story? \\
No. The story is that the Indian fisherman were on right course as per UAE (contradicting the USN version that that they were off course) and as per the Indian fisherman they were fired upon directly without any warnings (again contradicting USN account that they were warned before firing). No one is charging the Americans to open fire on them for fun and profit but the suspicion is they might have fired out of paranoia ignoring the standard protocol in such situations.The UAE is also disputing the USN claim that the incident happened in international waters.As per UAE, the incident happened in its territorial waters. All in all, there are loopholes in USN version of the events.
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- Rigveda
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This message has been edited by AryanArya on Jul 17, 2012 9:40 PM
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 10:14 PM
No. The story is that the Indian fisherman were on right course as per UAE (contradicting the USN version that that they were off course) and as per the Indian fisherman they were fired upon directly without any warnings (again contradicting USN account that they were warned before firing).
OK. How does the UAE know they were on course? As I read the report, even the Indians say they were trying to speed up to get around the Rappahonock. If they were on course, as claimed, why would that be necessary.
As I understand the report, the only thing the UAE disputed was where the incident occurred which, frankly, with current technology should be very easy to determine.
No one is charging the Americans to open fire on them for fun and profit but the suspicion is they might have fired out of paranoia ignoring the standard protocol in such situations.
Hmmmm. What is the standard protocol? To warn the boat away? To fire across their bow if the ignore the warnings? That's what the US said it did.
The UAE is also disputing the USN claim that the incident happened in international waters.
OK. That should be very easy to determine.
As per UAE, the incident happened in its territorial waters.
Again, OK. I'm really not sure what difference it makes. If I were in command of the Rappahonock, I'd have opened fire regardless of where the incident occurred if it happened as they said.
All in all, there are loopholes in USN version of the events.
There are discrepancies, yes. How those will sort themselves out, neither of us know. Frankly, I'd say the Indians were very lucky. The M2 leaves very large holes from which wounded individuals rarely recover. To have two wounded, rather than killed, means they were very fortunate. I guess it also means something else: The US needs to up arm their ships with .50 miniguns or 20mm miniguns.
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 10:22 PM
Well I checked Reuters and couldn't find a thing about the UAE backing the story of the Indian sailors. It's possible that some UAE politician said something, but that's hardly relevant now is it?
This is probably all a big misunderstanding. The USNS felt threatened gave some warnings to the vessel but the Indians for some reasons didn't get any of it. The USNS opened fire and that's that. Why is India trying to make this to an international incident is beyond me. Especially at this time when it's the word of professionals who are bound by ROE vs civilian sailors.
An unavoidable war is called justice.
When brutality is the only option left,
it is holy.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 10:28 PM
this reminds me of those italians who opened fire at indian fishermen few days ago thinking they were pirates.
italians were imitating americans and thought they could also get away with murder, and now much to the surprise hue and cry of italian govt they are serving prison time in indian jail. and would stay there for life , a normal sentence in india for murder.
but in this case i dont think justice well be served.
right now only american army could kill innocent people in broad daylight and wake away with grins on their faces.
others go to jail, but american army is much too strong now to be facing any sort of justice.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 10:32 PM
What is the standard protocol? To warn the boat away? To fire across their bow if the ignore the warnings? That's what the US said it did.
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i dont know what standard protocol is obserevd in usa ships if small fishing boats look threatning, but i beleive 1st warning sirens are sound, then high speed water pumps are deployed at civilian boats, there are many things.
navies some times even deploy water pumps at enemy naval boats.
but shooting is not one of them.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 10:59 PM
this reminds me of those italians who opened fire at indian fishermen few days ago thinking they were pirates.
I'm not aware of that incident. Maybe you could inform me.
italians were imitating americans and thought they could also get away with murder, and now much to the surprise hue and cry of italian govt they are serving prison time in indian jail. and would stay there for life , a normal sentence in india for murder.
Hmmmm. Never mind. I found it.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-18118790 I'm curious though as to how India thinks it can charge foreign nationals with murder for actions that were taken in international waters. My knowledge of maritime law seems to indicate that only Italy would have proper jurisdiction to try them and that India is illegally holding them. Hardly seems just to me. Additionally, you assert this is murder. I'd be interested in seeing the proof of that. If it were, in fact, mistaken identity, it's hardly murder. Reckless homicide maybe, maybe even voluntary manslaughter, but hardly murder.
but in this case i dont think justice well be served.
Since we don't know what REALLY happened here, yet, it seems a bit premature to even discuss what may or may not be just.
right now only american army could kill innocent people in broad daylight and wake away with grins on their faces.
A charming statement based upon India's history, isn't it?
others go to jail, but american army is much too strong now to be facing any sort of justice.
Again, we don't know what is "just" here do we?
i dont know what standard protocol is obserevd in usa ships if small fishing boats look threatning, but i beleive 1st warning sirens are sound, then high speed water pumps are deployed at civilian boats, there are many things.
Water pumps? Really? I wasn't aware that USNS ships were "armed" with water cannon. I hardly think that's SOP.
navies some times even deploy water pumps at enemy naval boats.
Interesting. Care to give an example?
but shooting is not one of them.
Not much of a historian are you, Mao? By the way, I've been curious, why does an Indian adopt the name of a Chinese leader who is the worst mass murder in history trying to give lectures to anyone on "justice?"
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:14 PM
\\Silly Indians learned a valuable lesson about what happens when you run up against a real military forward deployed.Not a bunch of Pakis or Chinese. \\
LOL, thats so Prado-ish like comment. The USN version of events is disputed both by the host govt (in this case UAE) and the 'other party' (Indian fisherman). It could as well be the USN ship might have been at fault for failing to follow standard procedures. If thats the case, the only lesson Indians can learn is that the USN is as much trigger happy as their police are and need more training on how to cope with such situations.But if the USN version is correct, they need to provide more details to prove the UAE and the fisherman version wrong.
\\How does the UAE know they were on course? As I read the report, even the Indians say they were trying to speed up to get around the Rappahonock. If they were on course, as claimed, why would that be necessary.\\
Not sure. We can just speculate. All the more reason for the US to be more transparent with more details on the incident.
\\Again, OK. I'm really not sure what difference it makes. If I were in command of the Rappahonock, I'd have opened fire regardless of where the incident occurred if it happened as they said. \\
The key point is whether it really happened as they said or partially happened as they said or something else ! For one it shows that each of the detail in USN account is being disputed by UAE govt and the Indian fisherman. Also i beleive (but not sure) if it has any impact in case UAE govt or the fisherman wants to lodge a case against US sailors, it matters whether the incident happened in UAE waters or international waters.
\\Well I checked Reuters and couldn't find a thing about the UAE backing the story of the Indian sailors. It's possible that some UAE politician said something, but that's hardly relevant now is it? \\
Its the UAE police chief who said (presumably after some investigation) and that is relevant.The key point is what does he mean by 'right course'. He was quoted as saying it in UAE daily which the Indian media re quoted it.
"The primary investigation confirms that the boat was in its right course and did not pose any danger. The shooting was clearly a mistake, Dahi Khalfan Tamim, Dubais influential police chief, was quoted as saying by the UAE daily The National."
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:19 PM
Don't blame the US navy for hendoos not using common sense.
You don't get within a hundred yards of a US navy ship unless you're invited!!
Obviously those hendoos aren't idiots... they managed to learn how to operate a boat so
they should have known better.
Here's another possibility.... Maybe the hendoos were escaping their Arab masters and were heading
towards the US ship seeking help or some kind of assistance..?
There's a lot of pakis and hendoo laborers/slaves that are in the control of rich arabs.... possibility?
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:20 PM
We don't know the full facts of the case here but US is treading a fine line.
As a country in an inevitable decline (both economically and militarily) it needs powerful allies and the mistakes by its under-trained, paranoid soldiers - and the refusal to own up to those mistakes - may cost it probably the most important potential ally to them - India.
Unlike the Arabs (non-democratic) or small European states the public opinion in India (and its very vocal and free media) would be very difficult to contain. This is not a wise thing to do. I still remember the shock and horror of US when India rejected their fighters from the MMCRA and their anger about their Nuclear companies which are still waiting for clearance to enter the Indian market (and that after all the pain that Bush went through to except India); this could become a norm if public opinion turns anti-US.
tl;dr: For all the bravado on display by US posters here, US is not the power that they like to think it is and it is in their self-interest to reign in their under-trained, poorly-educated cowboy soldiers.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:30 PM
Just keep in mind. US - NOT Pakis or Chinese. Stay the eff away from their military vessels and you won't get killed. Pretty simple really. Just ask the Pakis who opened fire on our troops along the Afghan border. They all ended up dead. Your sailors ended up dead. Lesson learned, now move along...
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[We don't know the full facts of the case here but US is treading a fine line.]
-That statement right there is an oxymoron. If we don't know the full facts of the case, how can you say for certain the US "treading a fine line"? That would insinuate the US was more than likely in the wrong. Without the full facts how can you make that statement?
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:37 PM
By the way, I've been curious, why does an Indian adopt the name of a Chinese leader who is the worst mass murder in history trying to give lectures to anyone on "justice""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
i adopted this name for justice sake.
this idiot led to deaths of millions and millions of chinese and still chinese woreship him.
dragon here used to call him great mao and said "so what if few deaths occurred due to his one tiny mistake".
i choose the name becasue, for some reason chinese woreship the people who kill them, like mongols-japanese-mao.
now u cant blame me a jat from having the ambition of being woreshipped. my name will confuse chinese and thats my agenda or it will open there eyes and they will see mao for a monster he really was.
and as for naval vessels deploying water cannons , i think most merchant naval ships have them, and some other naval vessels as well , like that chinese and malaysian( or maybe vietnam) vessel when they bombarded chinese naval vessel with water.
it was posted here on waff, i dont know the title but i do recall that malasiyans made many chinese very very wet.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:41 PM
//We don't know the full facts of the case here but US is treading a fine line.//
We are..? How so?
//As a country in an inevitable decline (both economically and militarily) it needs powerful allies and the mistakes by its under-trained, paranoid soldiers - and the refusal to own up to those mistakes - may cost it probably the most important potential ally to them - India.//
Are you effing kidding me..? "under trained..?" Undertrained is what hendoo fighter pilots are!
Are you really that devastated for a bunch of hendoo laborers that were probably going to be disposed off by their arab bosses..?
Get over it!! All you hendoos need to chill the F-out and stop this fake outrage!
They (hendoos) fvcked up by getting close to the ship and they paid for it! That's it.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:44 PM
Just ask the Pakis who opened fire on our troops along the Afghan border. They all ended up dead. Your sailors ended up dead. Lesson learned, now move along..."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
so plz care to tell how many bullets those hapless fishermen fired on that ship.
did they even had guns , the sailors must have seen some sort of guns on fishing ship? or did they mistook fishes as guns.
maybe fishermen opened fire by throwing fishes?
killing innocent fishermen and comparing them with pakis who actually opened fire is way to dumb and arrogant statement.
this arrogant behaviour of americans is very disturbing.
in the least they could have offered a nominal apology and said they would investigate with sincerity.
this will led to only more hatred in india towards usa.indian media will blow this issue for sure.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:48 PM
"Just keep in mind. US - NOT Pakis or Chinese. Stay the eff away from their military vessels and you won't get killed. Pretty simple really. Just ask the Pakis who opened fire on our troops along the Afghan border. They all ended up dead. Your sailors ended up dead. Lesson learned, now move along...
"
Okay.
Your first post itself made it clear that you neither have the decency nor the education to make a logical or coherent argument in a civilzed manner.
.
We get it, Now move along.
In fact, this thread in itself just supports my previous statement. If one goes through from top to bottom and sees the difference in the tone and quality of the posts of Indian and US posters the difference is quite enlightening. It is precisely because of this sort of boorish attitude that US is uniformly disliked in majority of the nations (both Eastern and Western). Perhaps this is cultural (or the outcome of some sort of deficient upbringing) and perhaps you are proud of the stereotype that you have but I just find it confusing why anyone would want to be seen like that.
I was in London when 2001 happend and it was sad to see the Americans pretending to be Canadians to avoid the general public hatred (after they did Iraq and all that), I remember when Chelsea Clinton was made to cry in Oxford just because she was American. There is no reason you have to be like that. There is no glory in being disliked unless the US society enjoys the sadistic side of it. So weird.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 17 2012, 11:58 PM
Get over it!! All you hendoos need to chill the F-out and stop this fake outrage!
They (hendoos) fvcked up by getting close to the ship and they paid for it! That's it.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
feeling smug about someones death is the real issue here.
some sort of sympathy by destroying someones family would have been seen as a good gesture.
instead look at the statements here.
do americans feel no remorse from the deaths they cause even unintentinally.
if a bird is hit by my truck and die i feel sad for days( of course i eat birds but even then causing even an animals death leaves me sad).
.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 12:09 AM
//feeling smug about someones death is the real issue here.
some sort of sympathy by destroying someones family would have been seen as a good gesture.
instead look at the statements here.
do americans feel no remorse from the deaths they cause even unintentinally.
if a bird is hit by my truck and die i feel sad for days( of course i eat birds but even then causing even an animals death leaves me sad). //
No, son. It's the response from you hendoos calling us "paranoid" and "undertrained" is what causing
me to respond like this.
You "people" have already made up your minds without the facts out yet... I kinda have a problem with that.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 1:10 AM
\\It's the response from you hendoos calling us "paranoid" and "undertrained" is what causing me to respond like this. \\
If the UAE and fisherman account are to be beleived, then its fair speculation to say that the gunners ARE paranoid and going by the account of the fisherman who said they were not warned before direct firing, its fair to accuse the US gunners of being undertrained for such situations. Of course, any navy might commit such mistakes and hence the need for the USN to come out with more details and own up their mistakes if they committed one.
--------------------------------------------------
\\You "people" have already made up your minds without the facts out yet... I kinda have a problem with that.\\
I agree one should not made up their minds without knowing facts.But that is equally true about "your people" as well as much as it is true about people you are accusing of.
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
-------------------------------------------
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[You "people" have already made up your minds without the facts out yet... I kinda have a problem with that.]
-Yet you say things, with absolute certainty like the following?
"Don't blame the US navy for hendoos not using common sense."
"They (hendoos) fvcked up by getting close to the ship and they paid for it! That's it."
...Seems to me that you are also guilty of making up your mind without all the facts yet too..
There.. I refuted something from an Indian, and either a blond hair blue eyes Caucasian American, or a Mexican refugee... (I'm guessing the former, but who knows.. I've been fooled before)... so what nationality does that make me this week?
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 2:13 AM
"@Coalde, Agreed. I thought so too. But there was no warning as per them. There are too many possibilities about what happened. May be there was no warning, may be they warned but it was too faint, may be some trigger happy USN men, may be fishermen's idea of warning was different and wrong maneuver. I guess no one will ever know here for sure."
Due to the nationalities involved it is entirely possible that the US vessel started warning them...in English, perhaps Farsi, even perhaps Arabic...I do however doubt that warnings in Urdu or Hindi were issued.
"I guess there should be better communications in host countries where USN operates nearby and clear guidelines on how to act and react for the sea faring civilians."
Had this been a warship I would doubt the judgement of the Indian captain even more (honestly speeding up towards a warship just seems to lack common sense to me), however this being a civilian vessel contracted to the USN, the choice would not be as obvious.
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[however this being a civilian vessel contracted to the USN, the choice would not be as obvious.]
This wasn't a civilian vessel contracted to the USN.. this was the USNS Rappahannock. A USN ship with a large chunk of their crew being civilian, but its official designation was with the US Navy as part of the USN's Pacific fleet.
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Re: US ship fire on Iranian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 2:30 AM
//...Seems to me that you are also guilty of making up your mind without all the facts yet too..//
Fact. hendoos got close to ship.
Fact. hendoos got shot for getting close to ship.
//There.. I refuted something from an Indian, and either a blond hair blue eyes Caucasian American, or a Mexican refugee... (I'm guessing the former, but who knows.. I've been fooled before)... so what nationality does that make me this week?//
Fact. You are a typical hendoo now!.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 2:45 AM
"This wasn't a civilian vessel contracted to the USN.. this was the USNS Rappahannock. A USN ship with a large chunk of their crew being civilian, but its official designation was with the US Navy as part of the USN's Pacific fleet. "
My mistake...but looking at pictures of it...is it clearly identifiable as a warship? ...to every human being on the planet, not just those who hang out on military forums. It has a lot of crane looking thingys on it and very few visible weapons.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 3:36 AM
I would like to see this happens to a Chinese fishermen!! China would probably send their warships to have a stand-off with the US and demands the killer to be apprehended. Power comes with responsibilities - a concept alien to the US.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 3:38 AM
Elwapo still unable to justify 22000 gangsta killing yearly in Mexico...but anyway, If guys notice Indians are some how not able to judge the intensity of situation and enter as most beloved nation and end up big trouble...remember incident in Germany,few Airline incidence, where they ignore travelling protocols during in the air..etc etc....and now this incident.
US navel ships has all option open to protect its ships specially in warzone. Its common practice all over the world where seaport or small boat docking companies issue notice to adoption of sea routes and time after time issue warning for no go zones.
-
Peace
Capt Khurram KIA during operation in NW against Taliban
--------------------------------
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[@colade the moron, try to read the post before spilling your shiit, you sand dwelling arab..]
-Dude, a celebration is in order.. is this your first nationality accusation by Hawkarse? Welcome to a very exclusive club where we make him look like a moron...
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 4:27 AM
@malaysian chingloo....if that had happened to chinese ?????
of course china raises much gas when dalai lama visits some wetern country and then that westeren country sometimes
rejects to give visa to dalai lama under chinese pressure.
but my dear fellow india not only gives safe haven to dalai lama and countless tibetean refugees but allows them to yell all they want about china.
and even after 50 years china shows in its map many 100s of 1000s of sq km of land which are otherwise occupied by india.
of course those people living in that land looks like chinese and speak something like chingping ting but still india has them.
so cut the crap , if it had been chinese there would be no news, chinese govt would have hushed the issue under carpet.
life means nothing to commies.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 5:32 AM
Official: 49 bodies left on Mexico highway
By PORFIRIO IBARRA RAMIREZ, Associated Press
Sunday, May 13, 2012
(05-13) 12:13 PDT MONTERREY, Mexico (AP) --
Forty-nine decapitated and mutilated bodies were found Sunday dumped on a highway connecting the northern Mexican metropolis of Monterrey to the U.S. border in what appears to be the latest blow in an escalating war of intimidation among drug gangs.
Mexico's organized crime groups often abandon multiple bodies in public places as warnings to their rivals, and authorities said at least a few of the recent victims had tattoos of the Santa Muerte cult popular among drug traffickers. But Nuevo Leon state Attorney General Adrian de la Garza said he did not rule out the possibility that the victims were U.S.-bound migrants.
The bodies of the 43 men and six women were found in the town of San Juan on the non-toll highway to the border city of Reynosa at about 4 a.m. (5 a.m. EDT; 0900 GMT), forcing police and troops to close off the highway. Nuevo Leon state security spokesman Jorge Domene said at a news conference that a banner left at the site bore a message with the Zetas drug cartel taking responsibility for the massacre.
Domene said the fact the bodies were found with the heads, hands and feet cut off will make identification difficult. The bodies were being taken to Monterrey for DNA tests.
De la Garza said the victims could have been killed as long as two days ago at another location, then transported to San Juan, a town in Cadereyta municipality, about 105 miles (175 kilometers) west-southwest of McAllen, Texas, or 75 miles (125 kilometers) southwest of the Roma, Texas, border crossing . . . .
This is some serious ****. I wanna see a movie on this violence once it is over.
Cults give me the damn creeps and Cartels are human scum. Twisted combo.
What the f*** is wrong with Mexico?
Seems like it's getting even worse in recent months (..and it's already worse than Astan and Iraq)
Mexicans protest in at least 17 cities against long-held dictatorship
MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Thousands of demonstrators protested in Mexico City on Saturday against opposition presidential candidate Enrique Pena Nieto, who is far ahead in polls and poised to lead the party that ruled Mexico for much of the 20th century back to power.
A contingent of mainly students, accompanied by groups of unionized workers and peasant farmers, held banners lambasting the Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, and its candidate, Pena Nieto.
"I have a brain, I won't vote for the PRI," one banner read.
Demonstrators also held signs accusing Pena Nieto of being unfairly favored by television companies and of having been corrupt and repressive as governor of Mexico State, a post he held from 2005 until 2011.
While many south American countries have seen their 20th century dictatorships fall, Mexico didn't really have a change. The old dictatorial party keeps most of its power.
According to mexican mainstream media, it's leading the polls; the reality shows a completely different thing. It's the first time protests breakout all over the country.
We have to remember this party ruled Mexico for most of the 20th century, imposing itself by force in 1914.
Since then, they has remained in power at whatever means available to them.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 5:43 AM
2007-2011 drug war
more than 50,000 humans lost in useless nation mexico, in every single day in every city in mexico, you see guns shooting, human bodies all over the streets, briges, this is the real situation in 21 century, in mexico.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 5:23 PM
\\Can we please get back to the topic of this thread, which is retard Indian fishermaen? \\
If the fisherman version is true, then its actually the American gunners who are retarded here. The days of the 'wild wild west' may have been over in US but it has magnificently preserved that wild west traditions in its police and armed forces. If the fisherman version is true, the undertrained gunners in US ships need urgent training on how to operate in congested waters of the gulf near to the coast (where foreign warships need to share space with local civilian fishing vessels) before they endanger more lives with their paranoia.
In a broader context, this is not just about Indians. The more such incidents occur (and they will occur as the waters near to the coast become more congested), the more unpopular US will become (even among its allies) and the more headache the US government will have "explaining" these incidents away.Needless to say, incidents like these are counter productive to US and the Iranian regime will be the biggest beneficiary of such stupid mistakes in the gulf.
BTW, not trying to be picky, but the title is still not accurate. Its not a Indian boat, its a UAE boat.The Indians were working on contract with a UAE based company and passengers include both the Indians and Emiratis.
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
-------------------------------------------
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 6:12 PM
God damn ching-chongs. They can never stay on topic.
They always trick me with their chinese jedi mind tricks and get me to flame with them.
Back on topic.
I believe the hendoos were warned. US navy is very patient.
These somali pirates were warned many times until they got shot. And this is the US navy knowing these
are armed somali pirates.
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Sir LurkaLot (Login w00tness) Satyameva Jayate (India)
Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 6:49 PM
I don't understand, they shot a civillian in a boat with a machine gun..and the american dudes here are thumping their chests as if it deserves a bravery medal.
Even if the civvy boat is at fault, do you really think you're doing your navy a service by glorifying this act? ElWapo mexicana burrito is being very dumby with e7 of drunked ludity anal probe kidnappings variety is jungle culture?
==================================
Tu dhoop hain jham se bikhar
Tu hai nadee o bekhabar
Beh chal kahin ud chal kahin
Dil khush jahan teri toh manzil hai wahin.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 18 2012, 7:36 PM
U.S. offers condolences to India after fatal ship shooting
India has called for an investigation after a Navy vessel fired on a fishing boat in the Persian Gulf. One Indian fisherman was killed and three others injured.
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The U.S. Navy said one of its refueling vessels opened fire on this fishing boat in the Persian Gulf after it ignored warnings not to approach the bigger ship. (U.S. Navy)
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U.S. ship fires on fishing boat in Persian Gulf, killing 1
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By Mark Magnier, Los Angeles Times
July 17, 2012, 4:18 p.m.
NEW DELHI The U.S. Embassy in India expressed its condolences Tuesday after an American refueling ship in the Persian Gulf opened fire on a fishing boat, killing one Indian and wounding three others. India has called for an investigation by the United Arab Emirates, in whose waters the shooting took place.
In a statement, the embassy said the United States was launching its own investigation, but repeated previous U.S. suggestions that the use of force was justified given that the small motorized vessel was approaching the Navy fuel resupply ship Rappahannock on Monday at a rapid pace and failed to heed several warnings to turn away. The Navy has said the signals were sent by radio, loudspeakers and flashing lights.
Lt. Greg Raelson, a public affairs official with the U.S. 5th Fleet in Bahrain, said he couldn't say whether the admonitions were in English, Arabic or another language but said the Navy issued a "series of nonlethal warnings" as part of routine efforts to protect itself. He declined to predict how long an investigation might take.
The Navy has been wary of small boats getting too close to warships since the October 2000 suicide attack on the U.S. destroyer Cole in Yemen that killed 17 sailors and injured 39.
The fishing vessel hit by the Rappahannock's .50-caliber machine guns Monday afternoon was about 30 feet long with three outboard engines and a crew of four Indians and two United Arab Emirate nationals, according to news reports.
Despite the U.S. assertions, one of the Indian fishermen aboard the boat that was attacked insisted by telephone from his hospital bed in the United Arab Emirates that the shots came without verbal warning.
"We were shocked to come under attack like this," said Sarvana, who goes by one name. "There was no time to react. We didn't know what hit us."
Sarvana said the fishermen were headed in the same direction as the U.S. naval vessel, which they saw, but veered off in a different direction to deal with an engine problem. The U.S. ship flashed some lights at them, he said, but given the bright sunlight the fishermen were unsure what the signals meant. Then the ship fired on them.
Sarvana was hit twice in the thigh, and his colleague Shekar, 25, was killed on the spot. Another crew member, Muthu Muniyaraj, 28, was hit twice in the legs; a third, Muthu Kannan, 35, was struck in the mouth and stomach and was in a critical condition. The two emirate sailors hid near the boat's engines the moment the firing started and weren't hurt.
The emirate government hadn't questioned the fishermen or taken any other action, Sarvana said, adding that they were satisfied with the care at the hospital, which employs Indian doctors.
Monday's incident occurred close to the Strait of Hormuz, about 10 miles off the port of Jebel Ali. Iran has threatened to block international shipping through the strait in retaliation for economic sanctions imposed because of its disputed nuclear program.
Amid mounting tension, the U.S. said this week that it would send the aircraft carrier John C. Stennis to the Persian Gulf region by the end of September, about four months ahead of schedule, to replace the carrier Enterprise. The Stennis will serve both as a hedge against Iran and to support combat air operations in Afghanistan.
About 40% of the world's seaborne oil exports passes through the Strait of Hormuz.
Indian fishermen have found themselves in the cross-fire of anti-piracy and counter-terrorism operations lately. This week's incident follows one in February in which two Indian fishermen were shot dead off the coast of India by an Italian cargo vessel that mistook them for pirates, creating diplomatic tensions between the two nations.
Recent killings of fishermen in "freak incidents" are a matter of great concern, said Julian Teeler, deputy head of the South Indian Federation of Fishermen Societies. The trade group planned to warn its members to be more vigilant and maintain a wider perimeter around large official-looking vessels, he said.
mark.magnier@latimes.com
Tanvi Sharma of The Times' New Delhi bureau contributed to this report.
Two things strike me. The Indian sailor admits to seeing the US ship signalling as the US claimed. The Dubai police had not questioned them calling into question the Dubai police chief's earlier comments about an iinvestigation and what it showed. If the sailors hadn't been talked to, it couldn't have been much an investigation.
All of this will sort itself out.
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 2:17 AM
Lots of contradictory versions !
From the above article,
US Version
"but repeated previous U.S. suggestions that the use of force was justified given that the small motorized vessel was APPROACHING the Navy fuel resupply ship"
Fisherman
"Sarvana said the fishermen were headed in the same direction as the U.S. naval vessel, which they saw, but veered off in a DIFFERENT DIRECTION to deal with an engine problem."
One of the fisherman claimed on the Indian channel, the boat was moving away from the warship when the US gunner opened fire at the boat.
I beleive that warning is given usually in multiple languages (one in english, one in local) followed by firing in air followed by firing near (but away) from vessel followed by hitting at the engine (if visible or in a position to shoot) to disable it and then only direct firing on the vessel inhabitants.
It looks like there was no verbal warning as per fisherman and as per navy they are not sure what language they used to give warning (which is little wierd to beleive).
Again from the article,
Navy
"Lt. Greg Raelson, a public affairs official with the U.S. 5th Fleet in Bahrain, said he couldn't say whether the admonitions were in English, Arabic or another language but said the Navy issued a "series of nonlethal warnings" as part of routine efforts to protect itself."
Fisherman
"Despite the U.S. assertions, one of the Indian fishermen aboard the boat that was attacked insisted by telephone from his hospital bed in the United Arab Emirates that the shots came without verbal warning."
And as per the fisherman, the navy flashed some light (without any verbal warning) followed by direct shooting on the boat (without shooting in the air first or near but away from the boat) which if true might be against the protocol.
From the article,
"The U.S. ship flashed some lights at them, he said, but given the bright sunlight the fishermen were unsure what the signals meant. Then the ship fired on them"
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
-------------------------------------------
This message has been edited by AryanArya on Jul 19, 2012 2:22 AM
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 7:15 AM
the hypocracy of indians exposed...
they accept US version of what happened to Pakistan Army when they attacked our check post with out exception and when the a similar kind happens to them they dispute the US version with every tooth and nail...
hypocracy is the virtue of the infidel
@DAK
didnt see this thread... i posted the same story again ... but your title doesnt seem right
Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia
Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.
Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 1:00 PM
\\when the a similar kind happens to them ...\\
I dont know what similarity is there between exchanging of fire between armed combatants and unilateral firing on a civilian fishing boat without following due warning process. The only commonality is the american factor.Everything should not be generalized and should be viewed in their own right and own circumstances.
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
-------------------------------------------
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 1:56 PM
what a dumb analysis again...
lets make simple
Malu on ship say they did not act in a hostile manner
Paki trooper state the same
case same both parties insisted they did not act in a hostile manner
US military says both parties acted in a hostile manner
requiring return fire...
simple enough?.....
the only thing is the absurdness of the US response attacking for 90 minutes even though our people were telling them they are attacking our posts,
a typical hindu with his self serving logic
Pakistan Airforce: The largest distributor of Indian airforce parts in Asia
Pathankot Strike
8 F-86Fs of No 19 Squadron led by Squadron Leader Sajjad Haider struck Pathankot airfield. With carefully positioned dives and selecting each individual aircraft in their protected pens for their strafing attacks, the strike elements completed a textbook operation against Pathankot. Wing Commander M G Tawab, flying one of the two Sabres as tied escorts overhead, counted 14 wrecks burning on the airfield. Among the aircraft destroyed on the ground were nearly all of the IAFs Soviet-supplied Mig-21s till then received, none of which were seen again during the War.
Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 4:13 PM
\\Malu on ship say they did not act in a hostile manner .Paki trooper state the same .case same both parties insisted they did not act in a hostile manner\\
Saying is one thing.Proving it with circumstancial evidence is different thing.
When a pakistan tropper armed with a gun says he is not a threat to the other side but the other side did expereince firing from pakistan side , it is on the pakistani army to prove that they did not initiate the firing.
On the other hand, if the US gunner fires on a civilian fishing boat which is on course and is in the process of moving away from the ship, it is on the US navy ship to prove (and not the fisherman) on why they initiated direct firing on the boat which is not moving in a threatnening manner and without resorting to due warning process.
As i said, every thing should be seen in its own right and should not be generalised.
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
-------------------------------------------
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 5:57 PM
Saying is one thing.Proving it with circumstancial evidence is different thing.
True. Very true. Interestingly enough it goes both ways. Simply because the Indians said it does not make it true, either.
When a pakistan tropper armed with a gun says he is not a threat to the other side but the other side did expereince firing from pakistan side , it is on the pakistani army to prove that they did not initiate the firing.
They'll never prove that because it simply isn't true.
On the other hand, if the US gunner fires on a civilian fishing boat which is on course and is in the process of moving away from the ship, it is on the US navy ship to prove (and not the fisherman) on why they initiated direct firing on the boat which is not moving in a threatnening manner and without resorting to due warning process.
My, isn't that a relatively selective picking of the available evidence? One Indian says we got no warning. Another says they were flashing lights (A warning) but we didn't understand it. One says we sped up to go around the US ship another says we were moving away. These, My Friend, are what we call in the legal business, inconsistent statements. This needs an investigation before one concludes not only which Indian story is true but how that ties to the US story and which aspects of it are true. To cherry pick in this manner and say "See!!!" just makes you look silly.
As i said, every thing should be seen in its own right and should not be generalised.
I can agree with that. The things that are seen though should look at the totality of circumstances not just the ones we think favor our own position.
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
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July 19 2012, 7:10 PM
\\True. Very true. Interestingly enough it goes both ways. Simply because the Indians said it does not make it true, either. \\
No one said what the Indian fisherman said is automatically true. Presicely the reason why it needs more independent investigation.What is being said is there are enough reasons to suspect the USN account and hence needs investigation.
\\My, isn't that a relatively selective picking of the available evidence? One Indian says we got no warning. Another says they were flashing lights (A warning) but we didn't understand it.One Indian says we got no warning. Another says they were flashing lights (A warning) but we didn't understand it. One says we sped up to go around the US ship another says we were moving away\\
Actually all the Indian fisherman said there did not get any verbal warnings which the USN insisted (but did not identify the language) was given. One fisherman said he saw flashing lights (a warning) followed by immediate shooting. Even if that is true, that still begs a question did the USN followed the procedure by issuing a serious of warnings (not just 'a warning') or just flashed some light (which the fisherman did not understand) and then shooted at the boat directly.
Also, another important point which needs investigation is at what point the USN fires at the boat. Is it while it is approaching it or is it when it already went around the ship and moving away from it ?
\\To cherry pick in this manner and say "See!!!" just makes you look silly. \\
No it does not.The cherry picking has a context. The USN says we did it because blah blah blah. My cherry picking account from fisherman side says no thats not exactly what happened because blah blah blah.I was alluding to the point using my cherry picking account that it needs more details to be filled (by USN) and there is a big difference between US-Pakistani military encounter and current US-UAE/Indian civilian encounter which is the context in which i used it.
\\The things that are seen though should look at the totality of circumstances not just the ones we think favor our own position.\\
Agreed ! No issues with that !
And related to it, although preliminary and rudimentary, this is what Dubai police is saying (not sure if that particular fisherman who said 'no one questioned us yet' was involved in this or this happened after the fisherman gave his interview). This report is dated only couple of hours ago. Also unclear what the police meant by 'warn'. Are they talking about verbal or warning in general or something else.
Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
No score for this post
July 19 2012, 9:25 PM
No one said what the Indian fisherman said is automatically true.
No, but clearly the tone of your and other Indian responses here is that they are. I don't know whether they are or not and neither to you. Both sides, frankly, have motives to lie, so only a real investigation will sort it out.
Presicely the reason why it needs more independent investigation.
Agreed.
What is being said is there are enough reasons to suspect the USN account and hence needs investigation.
LOL. In order to reach that conclusion, you have to presume the Indians are, in fact telling the truth. Right after telling me you weren't. You can't have it both ways. We need an investigation because we have inconsistent stories, not because the US story is "suspect." I hate to tell you but your prejudice is showing.
Actually all the Indian fisherman said there did not get any verbal warnings which the USN insisted (but did not identify the language) was given.
No, they said they didn't hear any verbal warnings, not that they didn't get any.
One fisherman said he saw flashing lights (a warning) followed by immediate shooting.
Are you denying that a flashing semaphore light is a signal or warning? And, "followed immediately" can mean anything from simultaneous to minutes afterward. I question witnesses for a living. One person's immediately is certainly not another's.
Even if that is true, that still begs a question did the USN followed the procedure by issuing a serious of warnings (not just 'a warning') or just flashed some light (which the fisherman did not understand) and then shooted at the boat directly.
And, as I said, unless we accept the Indians' story as true we really don't know. I know the first resort to such a situation isn't shooting into the craft. Therefore, I think that makes the Indians' story just as suspect as the US.
Also, another important point which needs investigation is at what point the USN fires at the boat. Is it while it is approaching it or is it when it already went around the ship and moving away from it ?
The Indians told two different stories about that.
No it does not.
Yes, I'm sorry, it does.
The cherry picking has a context. The USN says we did it because blah blah blah. My cherry picking account from fisherman side says no thats not exactly what happened because blah blah blah.I was alluding to the point using my cherry picking account that it needs more details to be filled (by USN) and there is a big difference between US-Pakistani military encounter and current US-UAE/Indian civilian encounter which is the context in which i used it.
I'm sorry but you're only confirming my original comment. You start from the presumption that the US story is false and the Indian true. I start from no such presumption. Frankly, IF the Indian story IS true, then they are more than lucky. If the US attacked unprovoked, as some have said here attacking the professionalism of the US sailors, then the only account we should be hearing is the US one. Had I opened fire without authorization of cause with a Ma Duece, I'd have sunk the target making sure my story was the only one that would be told.
Agreed ! No issues with that !
That's good. Presuming the US is lying doesn't do that.
And related to it, although preliminary and rudimentary, this is what Dubai police is saying (not sure if that particular fisherman who said 'no one questioned us yet' was involved in this or this happened after the fisherman gave his interview). This report is dated only couple of hours ago. Also unclear what the police meant by 'warn'. Are they talking about verbal or warning in general or something else.
This is simply a rehash of the original report and frankly, adds nothing to our discussion.
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
No score for this post
July 19 2012, 9:49 PM
US ship didn't warn Indian fishermen: Dubai police chief
DUBAI: The US ship that fired at Indian fishermen off the Dubai coast, killing one and injuring three, did not warn them, Dubai Police commander-in-chief was quoted as saying Thursday
"According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth," Lt-Gen Dhahi was quoted as saying.
The emirate government hadn't questioned the fishermen or taken any other action, Sarvana said, adding that they were satisfied with the care at the hospital, which employs Indian doctors.
If they've NOT been questioned, how can both of these reports be true?
Nemo me impune lacesset,
"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.
It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.
Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."
John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Re: US ship fire on Indian boat killed 1 and injured two
No score for this post
July 19 2012, 11:58 PM
\\No, but clearly the tone of your and other Indian responses here is that they are. I don't know whether they are or not and neither to you. Both sides, frankly, have motives to lie, so only a real investigation will sort it out.\\
The tone of the Indian responses are what they are because the tone of the American posters responses are what they are, which is blindly supporting the USN version. So yes, a 'real' investigation is needed.
\\LOL. In order to reach that conclusion, you have to presume the Indians are, in fact telling the truth. Right after telling me you weren't. You can't have it both ways. We need an investigation because we have inconsistent stories, not because the US story is "suspect." I hate to tell you but your prejudice is showing. \\
No one is denying that one needs a investigation.Thats what the Indian position is. The suspicion about USN version did not come out of blue.It came because of the inconsistant stories, both from the USN and the fisherman. So yes, we need investigation because the US story is 'suspect', at least as seen from the other side. As far as prejudice is concerned, in a topic like this, that is quite natural. My prejudice (if it is showing) is in response to american posters who are themselves showing their prejudice.So i dont see any problem with that. As long as the debate is civil, debatable, logical, prejudice from either side is ok, since in topics like these it may not be possibe to avoide it completely.
\\No, they said they didn't hear any verbal warnings, not that they didn't get any. \\
From the fisherman point of view, thats one and the same.If they did not hear it, it means they did not get it. Its up to the US to prove that their indeed was a verbal warning.
\\Are you denying that a flashing semaphore light is a signal or warning? \\
No, i am not denying that a flashing semaphore light is a signal.But what i was implying was even if that is true, that is only one among many warnings which the USN was supposed to give before they resort to direct firing on fisherman and we are not sure if they did that.So simply using this one account as a 'proff' of US giving 'warning' is what you called earlier 'cherry picking' evidence.
\\I'm sorry but you're only confirming my original comment. You start from the presumption that the US story is false and the Indian true. I start from no such presumption.\\
We all think that we start from no such presumptions but i dont think its true. As far as myself, i only entered this topic after the US posters already presumed that its the fisherman who is at fault.
\\Had I opened fire without authorization of cause with a Ma Duece, I'd have sunk the target making sure my story was the only one that would be told. \\
Well, if one wants to look at "that" way, one could take the argument even further and wonder, if whether that was the intention in the first place but some how it got failed ?
\\If they've NOT been questioned, how can both of these reports be true? \\
It could be possible that that particular fisherman was questioned by the police after he gave the interview to newspaper ? or that particular fisherman was not interviewed but others were ? There are possibilities for both of these reports to be true ! Whether its really the case is different matter.
===========================================
Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam
(Make this World Noble)
- Rigveda
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