WAFF Vet Club[Click here to Join WAFF!] WAFF Moderators Forum
General Discussion
(The Den)
The World's Armed Forces Forum History, Politics & Economics Forum
Greece & Turkey Defence Forum Europe, Middle East & Africa
Defence Forum
Asia & Pacific Defence Forum
Help, Suggestions & Complaints
   
   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

August 16 2012 at 3:00 PM
No score for this post

WAFFer  (Login irkut)
The Red Army (Russia)

http://www.tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201208160911-tq2z.htm

50 conventional targets imitating aircraft and 15 targets imitating the flight profiles of ballistic and cruise missiles.



[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.Respond to this message   
AuthorReply

(Login GavurYunan)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 16 2012, 4:44 PM 

S-400 is certainly the very best anti-ballistic and anti-aircraft SAM in the world. The Americans fear it, and they fear it rightly.

..



"The Turkish Cypriots looted, robbed and ravaged Greek Cypriot properties. They must start producing instead of being mere consumers. The Turkish Cypriots wanted to live without working!"

Major-General Bedrettin Demirel (1917-1988)
Commander of the Turkish Invasion Forces in 1974

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login 00Mike)
WAFFer

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 12:08 AM 

My opinion is that the S-400 is certainly the very best anti-ballistic and anti-aircraft SAM in the world. Furthermore, my opinion is that The Americans fear it, and they fear it rightly.

Fixed for you wink.gif

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login thanamestolga)
Moderators

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 12:16 AM 

Can you name a system thats better than the S400? happy.gif

-------------------------------------
[linked image]
Who's Chuck Norris?
[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login 00Mike)
WAFFer

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 12:35 AM 

"Can you name a system thats better than the S400? happy.gif"

I hate E-Peen vs E-Peen discussions for the fact that unless something is used in combat and you know 100% factually how it works, you're giving nothing but an opinion.

There is a host of many modern day SAM's that are probably quite capable. And by "probably" meaning they have never been used in combat.

How will they work in an actual enviornment filled with ECM/ECCM, SUTER, Jamming etc etc etc...

We. Don't. Know.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

Eric
(Login Nighthawk00)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 1:03 AM 

Combat is an eye-opener that's for sure.

crossroadsbakerexplosio.jpg

An unavoidable war is called justice.
When brutality is the only option left,
it is holy.
Machiavelli - The Prince 1513.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"

I'm not American, I'm from Flanders.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login thanamestolga)
Moderators

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 2:34 AM 

Its not hard to judge when most systems aren't tested. Patriots were never used on something big or major, neither was the S400 or S300 for that matter except for the whole Syria situation. But its not even confirmed if Syria had S300 back then. Then there's the issue on whether or not export models of most of these SAM's are monkey models, we already know the Russians only export monkey models of their weapons, I don't know much of the European/American SAM's though. But on paper, and thats all we can go on at the moment the S400 is the best. Thats all I'm trying to say. I'm not into the whole internet piss racing.

-------------------------------------
[linked image]
Who's Chuck Norris?
[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by thanamestolga on Aug 17, 2012 2:35 AM


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

WAFFer
(Login Azeri440)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 8:17 AM 

""S-400 is certainly the very best anti-ballistic and anti-aircraft SAM in the world. The Americans fear it, and they fear it rightly.""

since Russia only gonna produce S-400 for its needs first which will take few years
I would doubt USA even gives a crap

USA itself is creating an umbrella using Patrior,Aegis and THAAD systems




________________________________________

[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login Combat_Master)
The Redcoats (UK)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 9:18 AM 

"Patriots were never used on something big or major"

Patriots were called to action during both gulf wars, S300 however has not seen any conflict..



Griks In Despair
[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

WAFFer
(Login MKA3000)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 10:10 AM 

Didnt Serbia use S-300 against NATO air raids?

______________________________________________

[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

WAFFer
(Login Azeri440)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 11:43 AM 

No those were S-125 and Kub

________________________________________

[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login brahmaputra_river)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 1:46 PM 

I hate E-Peen vs E-Peen discussions for the fact that unless something is used in combat and you know 100% factually how it works, you're giving nothing but an opinion.

patriots saw combat in GW1 and they were a disastrous failure. Popular fiction writers like Frederick Forsyth tried to spin the failures as success but the end result was the patriots failed to knock down a single enemy scud.

For americans, anything Russian is automatically bad. So what they think about S-300 or S-400 has no credibility.


[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login thanamestolga)
Moderators

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 5:17 PM 

Patriots were called to action during both gulf wars, S300 however has not seen any conflict..

---------------

They were deployed during both Gulf wars, in fact some were deployed in Turkey during the second but they failed horribly in the first one and in the second one nothing was really fired at them to prove their true capabilities. However they managed to hit a few of their own jets and a Tornado belonging to RAF so they must be doing "something" right. :P

-------------------------------------
[linked image]
Who's Chuck Norris?
[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 5:39 PM 

patriots saw combat in GW1 and they were a disastrous failure. Popular fiction writers like Frederick Forsyth tried to spin the failures as success but the end result was the patriots failed to knock down a single enemy scud.

FN, don't take this the wrong way but are you really Pakistani?

11th ADA Brigade's Patriot batteries made history the night of January 18, 1991, when Alpha Battery, 2-7 ADA, protecting forces in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, recorded the first intercept of a ballistic missile in combat. As indicated by the debris from the BM that fell to the ground, the missile would have struck a village housing soldiers from VII Corps. Scud intercepts became a nightly event for the Patriot soldiers protecting coalition forces and the cities of Saudi Arabia and Israel. The fiery collisions of Patriot and Scud missiles were captured live by network television, and telecast worldwide to prime viewing audiences. The morale of the soldiers of the coalition, and the citizens of the United States, soared with each successful intercept.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/11ada-bde.htm

Scud War, Round Two
By Stewart M. Powell

Was the campaign against Saddam's missiles the "failure" and "disaster" that some critics now proclaim?

In the year since the US-led coalition overwhelmed Iraq's missile-equipped military forces, a second "War of the Scuds" has erupted over the effectiveness of American efforts to destroy Iraq's ballistic missiles on the ground and in the air.

The combat this time is rhetorical, pitting analysts and partisans of all stripes in a debate that will shape the future of US tactics and defenses against the mobile ballistic missiles that are becoming the weapon of choice throughout the Third World.

With increasing force and frequency, critics have challenged the Pentagon's claims that the innovative air campaign that relied on US Air Force systems scored heavily against mobile Scuds before they were fired against allied targets. Naval affairs analyst Norman Friedman, author of Desert Victory and a regular contributor to the US Naval Institute's Proceedings, is leading the challenge to the air-to-ground offensive, calling the effort "a miserable and telling disaster."

Critics also question the effectiveness of the Army's Patriot system, which repeatedly unleashed $600,000 missiles into the skies over Israel and Saudi Arabia to intercept inbound Scuds. Theodore A. Postol of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has led postwar revisionism with his detailed contentions that the surface-to-air portion of the anti-Scud effort was "a nearly total failure."

Both the Air Force and the Patriot have their staunch defenders, however. The difficulties of combating the Scud threat during Operation Desert Storm are being taken to heart throughout the armed services, propelling new efforts to deal with a persistent, elusive menace that will only increase on the battle-fields of the future.

Official reports show that Iraqi military forces mounted eighty-six Scud strikes at targets in Saudi Arabia or in Israel. The aging, thirty-seven- foot-long, 14,000-pound missile initially packed a 1,000-pound, high-explosive warhead before it was modified with longer fuel sections and lighter warheads for greater range. These variants included the 400-mile Al Hussein, with a 550-pound warhead, and the 500-mile Al Abbas, with a 275-pound warhead.

The potential lethality of every Scud missile was underscored in the final days of the forty-three-day war when one of the weapons, exploiting what the Army later called "an inexact computer software calculation," slipped past the net of a Patriot battery and slammed into a US barracks near Dhahran. The Scud demolished the rear-echelon building, killing twenty-eight Americans and wounding ninety-eight others.

Still, the Scud was far less potent as a military weapon than as a tool of political manipulation. Saddam used his Scuds to strike terror into the heart of far richer, better-armed nations-and, very nearly, to bring Israel into the war and thereby undermine the thirty-three-nation coalition.

Potent Political Punch

The Scud attacks carried immense political punch, taking allied commanders by surprise. Only at the last minute had Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the coalition's supreme military leader, broken open cargo space aboard C-5 and C-141 airlifters to send additional Patriots to Saudi Arabia to beef up defenses. When the first Scuds hit, General Schwarzkopf called them "militarily insignificant."

Yet constant media coverage of Scuds striking cities jolted public confidence, particularly amid fears that the Scuds might carry chemicals. "Now that we are into it," said Gen. Colin Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in the early days of the war, "we are finding that [the Scud campaign is] taking more of an effort on our part than we had anticipated."

Some analysts are highly critical of the Scud-busting operation, claiming it not only occupied unexpectedly large amounts of military resources, as General Powell conceded, but also produced fewer results than had been implied by officials. Mr. Friedman is one of the foremost critics, and his critique is sweeping. "Allowed to roam quite freely over a flat Iraqi landscape," he maintains, "the [Air Force] could not find a handful of mobile missile launchers even though the launchers were not masked in any way."

What really happened? Commanders had given priority to crushing the Iraqi Air Force of 750 combat aircraft and disabling its twenty-four main operating fields and thirty dispersal fields. Even before that phase of the war ended, leaders had to take steps to shift the pattern of attacks to destroy mobile launchers.

Prewar US intelligence had no firm fix on how many missiles Iraq possessed. Estimates ranged from 400 to 1,000. The weapons could be fired from dozens of fixed, surveyed sites, from up to fifty Soviet-made missile transporter-erector-launchers (TELs) and dozens of Iraqi-made mobile erector-launchers (MELs).

The allied campaign used virtually every system available. Bombers hammered production and storage facilities and fixed sites. Satellites detected the launches and relayed six minutes' warning downrange. The allies designated several "Scud boxes" to help strike aircraft narrow the search for the elusive targets that would emerge from hiding, fire, and hide again, within minutes.

The campaign was "intense and ran throughout the war," the Air Force said in a postwar white paper. By day, Scud-busting fell to many of the 144 A-10 Thunderbolt II attack planes based in the theater. A-10 pilots eyeballed suspect vehicles on highways and attacked them with 30-mm depleted-uranium ammunition or Maverick antiarmor missiles. The A-10s fired 5,274 Mavericks-- ninety percent of the total launched by Air Force systems--and many were aimed at suspected Scud systems. Many of the 249 F-16s in the theater were at some point diverted to bomb Scud sites.

By night, F-15E dual-role fighters equipped with Low-Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) attack equipment routinely orbited in two-ship patrols to dive beneath clouds and strike Scuds with precision weapons.

Joint STARS Lends a Hand

On occasion, F-15Es would be directed to the Scuds by one of the two E-8A Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar System aircraft in the theater. The Joint STARS aircraft had been rushed from development testing into combat to put their powerful side-looking ground surveillance radar to work.

Navy aircraft flying off three carriers in the Red Sea played a smaller Scud-hunting role, devoting an estimated ten percent of their sorties to the mission. F-14s and S-3s tracked the missiles, and then A-6E attack planes bombed them.

Also taking part were US and British commandos, who used laser designators to target Iraqi missiles for coalition aircrews. Lt. Gen. E. M. Flanagan, Jr., reported in Army Magazine that commandos operating in western Iraq found nine mobile launchers under a bridge on the Baghdad-Amman highway. Another commando mission uncovered preparations for a final, last-ditch barrage of up to twenty-nine missiles that would saturate and over-whelm the six Patriot batteries in Israel. The site was destroyed.

By war's end, allied aircraft had flown 2,493 sorties against Scud targets, the majority of these in the first three weeks of the air war. The final tally of Scuds actually destroyed was never really known. Postwar accounts showed scores of launchers unscathed and Iraqi Scud production continuing.

Washington readily acknowledged that the effort was not perfect. The Air Force conceded difficulties with Scud-busting in a report issued last September. The mission "posed one of the air campaign's most serious challenges," said the report. "Although air attacks dramatically reduced the frequency of Scud launches, the mobile missiles proved particularly difficult to detect and were never fully sup-pressed."

"We thought from the beginning that we would have to attack Scuds ," said Gen. Merrill A. McPeak, the Air Force Chief of Staff. "What surprised us was [that] we put about three times the effort that we thought we would on this job."

William J. Perry, Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering during the Carter Administration and now codirector of Stanford University's Center for International Security and Arms Control, concluded that, in general, the armed forces had done a satisfactory job, given the difficulty of the task. He added, however, that the US "could have done better" against the missiles had the military authorities "anticipated the difficulty and been better prepared."

The number of missile launches dropped steadily from an average of five per day in the first ten days of the war to one per day for the last thirty-three days. In the end, officials used this reduced rate of launches as the yardstick of success and made no claims that the US had eliminated the Scud threat. "I don't think you can put a hard percentage on the amount of his [Scud] capability that's been destroyed," admitted Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney. "It's a nebulous kind of thing."

Forced to Move Out

It is clear that, at a minimum, the unrelenting air war forced Iraq to move Scud operations away from the surveyed launch areas within range of Riyadh and Tel Aviv and launch from less satisfactory points. This reduced the Scuds' chances of actually hitting their targets. The harassing air operations also cut down the number of Scud launches.

On eighty-six occasions, however, Iraq successfully launched Scuds: forty times against targets in Israel and forty-six times against targets in Saudi Arabia. It was then that the surface-to-air portion of the Scud war came into play. Fifty-three of these Scuds came within Patriot "coverage" areas in Israel and Saudi Arabia. The rest fell beyond Patriot range or harmlessly into empty desert or the sea.

Neither the Army nor Raytheon Corp., the manufacturer of the Patriot, would detail the Patriot's performance on an attack-by-attack basis. Official statements, however, disclose that US forces fired a total of 158 Patriots, including one that was misfired at an allied aircraft returning to Turkey (it missed). According to Army figures, Patriots "successfully engaged" more than eighty percent of the Saudi Arabia-bound Scuds within its coverage range. The Army says that Patriots succeeded more than fifty percent of the time against Scuds plummeting toward Israel.

The first attack on Saudi Arabia, however, revealed a complication that dogged the Patriot throughout the war. High in space, a US satellite detected five missile launches, but, by the time the Scuds reentered the atmosphere six minutes later at a speed of 4,000 miles per hour, the five missiles had broken into fourteen missile parts, including five warheads. The Patriot, an anti-aircraft system that had undergone software modifications to become an antimissile defense system, fired twenty-eight of its interceptor missile two for each incoming Scud object. It was an astonishing show of force, but it cost $16.8 million.

What is believed to be the first missile-to-missile "interception" in the history of combat took place 17,000 feet over Dhahran at 4:45 a.m. on January 17. A 200-pound Patriot proximity-fuze warhead showered its target with shrapnel, rendering it harmless. Israel, which absorbed four days of Iraqi Scud attacks without defenses, asked Washington to deploy US-manned Patriot batteries to join a pair of Israeli batteries that were manned by troops rushed back from training at Fort Bliss, Tex. Within twenty-eight hours, four US batteries with thirty-two Patriots were flown to Israel and set up.

Many Israelis viewed the Patriots as a source of absolute protection against attacks such as the ones in the first four days of the war, which wounded 115 and damaged 2,698 dwellings.

Little-understood at the time, however, was the Patriot's design as a defender of small military sites-so-called "point" targets--and not of vast, populated "area" targets. By that standard, said Maj. Pete Keating, an Army spokesman, the Patriot met its requirement and thus "succeeded" if it destroyed any incoming warhead, "dudded" its mechanisms, knocked it off course, or caused a partial burn of explosives.

Israel's Higher Standard

For Israelis, however, the standard of success was quite different--destruction of warheads and fragments from missiles--and they contend that the Patriot didn't hack it. The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv calculated that eleven Scuds engaged by Patriots caused more destruction than the thirteen Scuds that hit Israel before the Patriots arrived.

The postwar clamor over the Patriot kept Israel's wartime sacrifice in the spotlight as the nation sought support from Washington for its Arrow antimissile program. The debate was intensified by the entrance of Mr. Postal, the MIT physicist who had once served as a science advisor in the Pentagon. His critique was contained in a detailed, fifty-two-page analysis published by Harvard University in the professional journal International Security. Said Mr. Postal, "Our first wartime experience with tactical ballistic missile defenses resulted in what may well have been a nearly total failure to intercept quite primitive attacking missiles."

His theme was echoed by Israeli scientists and military officers who traveled to Huntsville, Ala., for after-action meetings with US officers and officials. They said Israel's own postwar studies concluded that Patriots had destroyed less than twenty percent of warheads bound for Israeli targets. They claimed that twelve videotaped Patriot-Scud engagements showed not a single warhead destroyed.

The claims were seized on by critics of the Pentagon's Strategic Defense Initiative. Mr. Postol said that the breakup of Scuds simulated the dispersal of "decoys" that any future missile defense system would encounter. The Gulf War, he added, showed that missile defense systems could "likely be defeated" by simple decoys.

Stanford University's Professor Perry took a more moderate stance on the issue. The former Pentagon official said that the Patriot did as well as could be expected but that better defenses of the future had to pay "serious attention" to the problem of decoys.

Harold Brown, Secretary of Defense during the Carter Administration and one of the top technical and strategic experts in the US, hailed the Patriot's performance but cautioned that the results of the Gulf War did "nothing to contradict" his long-held belief that existing technology offers "no reasonable prospect" of protecting the entire US from "a sophisticated, large-scale nuclear attack."

Arguing for Arrow

Others used the Patriot's performance as ammunition to bolster the case for continued US funding of Israel's own $2 billion Arrow. Tailored to defend densely populated areas, the Arrow was designed to intercept missiles at an altitude of twenty-four miles, four times higher than the Patriot's engagement altitude.

"The danger is that [US] research and development activities will continue on the false assumption that Patriot had an impressive success in intercepting Scuds," warned Reuven Pedatzur, an analyst publishing a study on the Arrow for the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University.

The postwar controversy, coupled with Israel's wartime restraint, sped Washington's approval of substantial funds for the next phase of Arrow. During his first postwar visit to Israel, Secretary Cheney agreed to provide seventy-two percent of $300 million budgeted for the second phase of development.

Brig. Gen. Robert A. Drolet, the Army's Program Executive Officer for Air Defense at Redstone Arsenal, Ala., said the Army was "highly satisfied" with the weapon's performance. The Defense Department, in a postwar report, said that Patriot had performed a key war-related mission by "frustrating Saddam's most politically visible weapon." The US weapon "countered a sense of helplessness that civilian populations would otherwise have encountered."

Raytheon Corp., in a twenty-eight- page, point-by-point rebuttal of Mr. Postol's allegations, highlighted the Patriot's technical prowess as well as its contribution to the alliance. Robert M. Stein, manager of Raytheon's advanced air defense programs, observed that the Patriot's performance could be "measured" by the facts that the coalition "did not falter," Israel stayed out of the war, and "widespread loss of civilian life was not inflicted--although the potential was clearly there ."

Mr. Stein readily conceded the difficulties of building an impenetrable shield. "We as designers and manufacturers of these systems wish we knew how to achieve a 100 percent success rate under all conditions in wartime," he said. "We do not."

The war was hardly over before efforts were under way to improve tactics and systems to thwart mobile missiles. Officials moved to overcome gaps in real-time intelligence that impaired operations. As the Air Force white paper noted, Scud-hunting "hinged on the accuracy" of intelligence. The Air Force and the Defense Intelligence Agency forged ahead to bolster cooperation between intelligence agencies and attack forces.

A Promising Partnership

One promising point was the partnership between the F-15E and Joint STARS. Mr. Perry argues that, had more than two E-8s been available, Scud-busting might have been far more fruitful because the coalition could have put one of the surveillance planes on the job full-time, rather than as a sideline. The E-8 might have developed a "reasonably reliable signature of Scud activities" to enable the small force of strike aircraft to mount an effective campaign, he said.

The Pentagon also mapped immediate improvements in the Patriot to provide a fourfold increase in the area protected by a battery as well as to boost the altitude of interception by forty percent. With a second phase of follow-on upgrades by the late 1990s the Patriot may be able to defend an area twenty times larger and intercept missiles at twice the altitude.

Even so, all signs are that the second round of the War of the Scuds will last considerably longer than the first. House Government Operations Committee Chairman Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.), who also chairs that panel's Legislation and National Security Subcommittee, vowed an inquiry into the Patriot's performance. Said he, "What I'm beginning to feel is that this wonderful system wasn't so wonderful after all."

The outcome of the debate is uncertain, but it is sure to have a major impact on the direction of US military tactics and systems.

Stewart M. Powell, national security correspondent for Hearst Newspapers, covered Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere on the Arabian peninsula. He has covered security affairs in the US and abroad for more than a decade. His most recent article for AIR FORCE Magazine was "Friendly Fire" in the December 1991 issue.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1992/April%201992/0492scud.aspx



COMBAT USAGE

Operation Desert Storm: The Patriots debut came during Desert Storm, where 42 Iraqi ballistic missiles were engaged. At the time of the cease-fire, President George HW Bush stated that the MIM-104 had a kill rate of 97%. The US Army shortly thereafter downgraded this to 80% in the Gulf theatre and 50% over Israel. In April 1992, a MIT study stated that the actual overall success rate was under 10%. However later that year a Harvard study determined that 33% of the targets engaged were struck and 25% destroyed. This study is now generally accepted as the definitive rate.

A reason for the discrepancies is that many intercepted missiles were not destroyed, with the Patriots proximity-fused warhead splitting the SRBMs warhead off but not destroying it. This was compounded by the fact that Iraqs al-Hussein and Scud SRBMs tended to disintegrate during their descent, and the AN/MPQ-53 often locked on to the tumbling fuel tank instead of the warhead. The performance over Israel was also affected by that nations dense population which meant that missed warheads were more likely to hit cities.

A small silver lining was the psychological impact of the MIM-104, especially in Israel where intercepts (actually successful or otherwise) were often carried on live television. Finally, however low the rate may have been, the Patriot is the first weapon in history to have defeated a ballistic missile in battle.

Operation Iraqi Freedom: The MIM-104 deployed again to the Gulf in 2003, keeping pace with US amroured units including the final assault on Baghdad. Patriots were credited with eight confirmed SRBM downings (al-Samoud II and Ababil-100 types) for an unknown number of firings. However, the Patriot was involved in three friendly fire tragedies: A RAF Tornado (mistaken for an incoming missile) and a USN F/A-18 Hornet (crew error). Conversely, a USAF F-16 Falcon attacked a 101st Airborne Division MIM-104 battalion (the same one which downed the Hornet) with an AGM-88 HARM after mistaking it for a SA-2 Guideline SAM. The battalions AN/MPQ-53 was destroyed but no soldiers were killed.

http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclopedia/entry1493.aspx

I could go on, but you'll probably be as accepting of the truth as Prado and his ilk.

Nemo me impune lacesset,


[linked image]"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.

It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.

Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."

John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login 00Mike)
WAFFer

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 11:33 PM 

"patriots saw combat in GW1 and they were a disastrous failure. Popular fiction writers like Frederick Forsyth tried to spin the failures as success but the end result was the patriots failed to knock down a single enemy scud.

For americans, anything Russian is automatically bad. So what they think about S-300 or S-400 has no credibility."

For the first time having a missile hit a missile in combat, they did prove themselves as decent interceptors. However, they did not achieve what was expected: To hit and destroy the warhead. Provost, actually, beat me to it with his post on why that occured. wink.gif

To the rest, that's just your opinion.

"They were deployed during both Gulf wars, in fact some were deployed in Turkey during the second but they failed horribly in the first one and in the second one nothing was really fired at them to prove their true capabilities. However they managed to hit a few of their own jets and a Tornado belonging to RAF so they must be doing "something" right. :P"\

Kudos to reinforcing what I said: "How will they work in an actual enviornment filled with ECM/ECCM, SUTER, Jamming etc etc etc...

We. Don't. Know."



    
This message has been edited by 00Mike on Aug 17, 2012 11:34 PM


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.

(Login 00Mike)
WAFFer

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 17 2012, 11:41 PM 

On note, some of ya don't need to get your panties in a bunch. I never said, nor implied, that the S-400 is a bunch of crap or anything of the like. It's an awesome system and should be respected.

I just like to let some people know that what they believe as being a fact, is rather, an opinion.

fact

noun
1.
something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.

2.
something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

3.
a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

4.
something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

5.
Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.

o·pin·ion

noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

4.
Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.

5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

Hope it helps happy.gif


    
This message has been edited by 00Mike on Aug 17, 2012 11:42 PM


 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
orao from serbia
(Login orao)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 18 2012, 8:53 AM 

If we(Serbia) had S-300 no pusssy USA with NATO would have attacked us.
Such systems are gurantee for freedom and peace. Can't imagine what S-400 is capable in real conditions since we hit several planes with 1960 technology.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
WAFFer
(Login colky7)
Moderators

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 18 2012, 2:42 PM 

^^^ How about the guarantee of freedom and peace for the thousands being ethnically cleansed? We did the right thing in taking milosovich and his bunch of thugs out and i doubt having a more formidable SAM system would have made any decision to the US/NATO.

=====
Speaking of the Eurofighters close-in combat prowess, Major Marc Gr�ne, CO of 742 (Zapata), the second squadron of the wing, described to assembled aviation journalists how, on a recent visit to France to demo the aircraft, he had won two out of two battles against the Dassault Rafale in mock within visual range dogfights. Both fights were a standard set-up and merge at 21,000ft and 30,000ft he recounted, adding that the higher the fight the better the Eurofighter liked it. He singled out the Eurofighters excess power as its trump card over the Rafale

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
orao serbia
(Login orao)
Hellenic Hoplites (Greece)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 18 2012, 9:11 PM 

Ha ha yeah sure...that is why they put arms embargo on Serbia...

By the way, Albanians left Serbia as soon as bombing started...no police or army had time to deal with bunch of farmers.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 18 2012, 9:35 PM 

Yes, Orao, if only Serbia wasn't so oppressed, it would defeat the world and we'd all be hailing it as the ruler of the world.

Nemo me impune lacesset,


[linked image]"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.

It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.

Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."

John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.


(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 18 2012, 9:46 PM 

When the S400 faces a real enemy then we can talk. Until then, as someone already said, it looks good on paper.

Nemo me impune lacesset,


[linked image]"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.

It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.

Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."

John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
FN
(Login brahmaputra_river)

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 19 2012, 1:50 PM 

@Provost - LOL!! No dude, am as far removed from being a phuckistani as can possibly be.

Whatever I have read about the Patriots is from news sources, so don't shoot the messenger. Just for my argument there are two paragraphs on why the patriot is not the best missile around.


Trial by fire

Prior to the Gulf War (1991), ballistic missile defense was an unproven concept in war. During Operation Desert Storm, in addition to its anti-aircraft mission, Patriot was assigned to shoot down incoming Iraqi Scud or Al Hussein short range ballistic missiles launched at Israel and Saudi Arabia. The first combat use of Patriot occurred 18 January 1991 when it engaged what was later found to be a computer glitch.[13] There were actually no Scuds fired at Saudi Arabia on 18 January[14] This incident was widely misreported as the first successful interception of an enemy ballistic missile in history.

Throughout the war, Patriot missiles attempted engagement of over 40 hostile ballistic missiles. The success of these engagements, and in particular how many of them were real targets is still controversial. Postwar video analysis of presumed interceptions by Prof. Postol suggests that no Scud was actually hit;[15][16] this analysis is contested by Dr. Zimmerman.[17]


Failure at Dhahran

On February 25, 1991, an Iraqi Scud hit the barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 28 soldiers from the US Army's 14th Quartermaster Detachment.

A government investigation revealed that the failed intercept at Dhahran had been caused by a software error in the system's clock.[18][19] The Patriot missile battery at Dhahran had been in operation for 100 hours, by which time the system's internal clock had drifted by one third of a second. Due to the closure speed of the interceptor and the target, this resulted in a miss distance of 600 meters.

The radar system had successfully detected the Scud and predicted where to look for it next, but because of the time error, looked in the wrong part of the sky and found no missile. With no missile, the initial detection was assumed to be a spurious track and the missile was removed from the system. No interception was attempted, and the missile impacted on a barracks killing 28 soldiers.

At the time, the Israelis had already identified the problem and informed the US Army and the PATRIOT Project Office (the software manufacturer) on February 11, 1991, but no upgrade was present at the time.[citation needed] As a stopgap measure, the Israelis recommended rebooting the system's computers regularly, however, Army officials did not understand how often they needed to do so. The manufacturer supplied updated software to the Army on February 26, the day after the Scud struck the Army barracks.

Preceding failures in the MIM-104 system were failures at Joint Defense Facility Nurrungar in Australia, which was charged with processing signals from satellite-based early launch detection systems.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot

Well the accusation of failure is itself disputed, but just to let you know that there are controversies of patriot being a success during GW1.

How good a missile the patriot is in 2012, 22 years later, is open for debate.

[linked image]

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
WAFFer
(Login 00Mike)
WAFFer

Re: S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise

No score for this post
August 19 2012, 3:10 PM 

^^ Thank you for reinforcing what I had previously said. You just don't know until it's sent in to combat.

 
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Current Topic - S-400 regiment shoots down 65 targets in course of single exercise  Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
WAFF recommends these sites

Indian Defence Analysis      [Definitive Lapse of Reason]