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Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

November 6 2013 at 3:04 AM
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Kris  (Login ELWAPO)
Eagle Squadron (US)

[linked image]

NATO member Turkey's selection of Chinese missiles in late September to meet its long-standing requirement of long-range air and missile defense systems over rival US and European bidders continues to be a point of tension with the alliance, which raised its objection to the Turkish choice on the grounds that these systems would neither be compatible nor interoperable with that of the alliance air defense network, hence causing weakness in Turkish security as well.
It is, however, not only NATO in general and the US in particular who have voiced their unease over Turkey opting for Chinese missiles but also the Turkish military, which is allegedly very unhappy that it might finally acquire second-hand, not battle-tested and cheap Chinese missiles, as opposed to US-made Patriot missile systems. After all, this is the Turkish military, which has highly advanced jet fighters such as US F-16s in its inventory, while its country is a partner to the US-led Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) new generation aircraft, of which it plans to buy 100.

The Turkish military is reportedly also mad at the US because its companies were not encouraged to offer more high-technology transfers to Turkey to undercut other bidders, i.e., China and an Italian-French consortium, whose missiles are not battle-tested either.

According to sources knowledgeable about the meeting of the Executive Committee (EC) of the Turkish Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) held on Sept. 26, during which Turkey announced, to the surprise of many, its decision to start contract talks with China's Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation (CPMIEC) for the co-production of surface-to-air missile defense systems, Chief of General Staff Gen. Necdet Özel did not make any comments at all over Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoan's choice of Chinese missiles.

Turkey announced on Sept. 26 that it would start contact negotiations with China's CPMIEC for the local production of its FD-2000 missile defense system over rival systems from French-Italian Eurosam SAMP/T and US Lockheed Martin-Raytheon's Patriot systems.

However, Turkey later disclosed that should contract talks with CPMIEC fail, it would go ahead with talks with Eurosam, the runner-up in the tender, and then with US companies, the third choice in the bid, if talks with the Europeans do not yield results.

Erdoan recently broke his silence on the Turkish choice of Chinese missiles, citing CPMIEC's offer for high-technology transfer that will boost the Turkish capacity to develop highly sophisticated missile systems as well as its price of about $3.4 billion. Hence, Erdoan said, China offered the most competitive terms and would allow co-production in Turkey.

Despite the fact that Gen. Özel stood indifferent to Erdoan's decision to opt for Chinese missiles, the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) are reportedly very unhappy with the fact that Turkey may acquire Chinese missiles.

Reliable military sources told Today's Zaman that the Turkish generals meeting with visiting US Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Jim Miller last week had in fact made known their unease over the Turkish selection of Chinese missiles and had reportedly voiced their anger with the US over what they termed its failure to come up with a high-technology transfer offer.

In addition to NATO's reaction to Turkey for its choice of Chinese missiles, US Ambassador to Turkey Francis Ricciardone said last month that Washington was very concerned about the prospect of a deal with a company from China, which his country has imposed sanctions on for selling arms and missile technology to Iran and Syria.

Erdoan will not bow to Western pressure

Will Turkey give up the Chinese missiles in response to mounting pressure on Ankara from its NATO allies? The answer is most probably no since Prime Minister Erdoan, who put his stamp on the selection of the Chinese systems on the grounds that the best technology transfer offer during the tender process was made by China in addition to its lowest price offer, does not want to give the impression that he bowed to Western pressure.

On his return from Kosovo in late October, Erdoan said: The statements made by NATO or any other country on the issue [of the Turkish selection of the Chinese systems] have no impact on the Turkish decision. No one has the right to overshadow our concept of independence.

One of the key words uttered by Erdoan is independence, and Turkey attaches, rightly or wrongly, great importance on making gains in its long-neglected defense industry.

Another reason for Erdoan not giving up negotiations with China for no good reason is the fact that he knows quite well that China is an important country which cannot stomach Turkey abandoning its company before seeing whether CPMIEC can live up to its high-technology transfer pledge.

In a situation where Turkey abandons CPMIEC for no good reason, China can be very annoyed and Erdoan would not like to damage relations with China, says a government official.

It seems that only under conditions where the cost of building the Chinese missiles in Turkey skyrockets from the stated price of $3.4 billion to over $5 or $8 billion due to the nature of the missile system, which requires a costly infrastructure, might Ankara stop negotiations with China.

If, for example, the Turkish economy ministry tells Erdoan during the contract talks with CPMIEC that the country cannot afford the cost of the project if it skyrockets, Erdoan might give up buying the Chinese missiles.

Is Turkey really open to new offers from other bidders?

Soon after Turkey had asked Lockheed Martin-Raytheon and Eurosam to extend the pricing offer on their systems by the end of January of next year, Turkish Defense Minister smet Ylmaz said on Nov. 1 that while contract talks with China continue without any hurdles, the US and Eurosam could still make new offers.

Everyone is free to send us their final offers, Ylmaz said.

Similarly, Prime Minister Erdoan said in late October that Ankara would be open to new offers if its talks on co-producing the long-range air and missile defense system with CPMIEC fail.

Turkey's demand from the shortlisted companies to extend their pricing offers is said to be for Ankara to keep its options open in case its talks with the Chinese supplier fail.

Turkey's demands from the companies also involve testing their commitment to staying in the tender.

Hence, Turkey has not officially asked the companies to improve their offers from a technological viewpoint.

In fact, Minister Ylmaz's statement that Turkey is open to new offers from the shortlisted companies was made verbally.

If the other companies come up with improved technology offers in building long-range missiles, this will help Turkey put pressure on China to lower its price. What Ylmaz said was a negotiation technique and it does not mean anything, said a Western defense source in Ankara.

In the meantime, US and European companies have responded favorably to the Turkish request to stay in the tender and to extend their pricing offers.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-330693-turkish-military-very-unhappy-with-chinese-missiles-mad-at-us.html

Lol. So the turk military is saying what me and others in here have saying... chinese missiles are basically junk!

And why do they insist on tech transfer if, according to WAFF turks, turcs don't need anybody for their military..?

[linked image]

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Tr1986
(Login Turksta1986)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 3:06 AM 

"The Turkish military is reportedly also mad at the US because its companies were not encouraged to offer more high-technology transfers to Turkey to undercut other bidders, i.e., China and an Italian-French consortium, whose missiles are not battle-tested either. "


 
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Kris
(Login ELWAPO)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 3:09 AM 

I just love this...


About half of Turkeys network-based air defense radar picture has been paid for by NATO. They are part of the NATO Air Defense Ground Environment. Without NATOs consent it will be impossible for Turkey to make the planned Chinese system interoperable with these assets, some analysts say.

To defend against missile threats, Turkey needs satellite and dedicated ballistic-missile detection and tracking radar, such as the NATO radar deployed last year in Kurecik, in southeastern Turkey.

For the anti-aircraft component, Turkey needs an overall picture for data fusion. The Patriot system, for instance, can detect threats with its own radar. So does the Chinese system. But without integrating into a full air picture, the Chinese system could not work efficiently, analysts said.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131103/DEFREG01/311030006/Turks-May-Rethink-China-Missile-Deal

yoohoo... nutsack, where are you? [linked image]

As you can see, jagare, alex2727, nutsack, and other WAFF armed chair turc jihadis... you heavily depend on others
for your defense! [linked image]

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_Koniev
(Login _Koniev)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 3:38 AM 

Problems of integration can easily be solved by Turks. No problem and no need to scare Turkish military with nonexistent boogyman


[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

 
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Roar
(Login jat_sikh)
Satyameva Jayate (India)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 4:07 AM 

lol koinev that pic is hilarious.
and on topic, I don't think turkey is desperate for some SAM systems . that's hardly a big deal. what turkey really really wants is tech. that's main objective here. and anybody can see what America is doing in greater middle east. they want to keep it in jihadi hands and thus in stone age.( Russia don't want that , they put a stop on middle east going all out jihadi in Syria).
if some jihadies bomb some American buildings that's ok with usa, as that gives America more reason to keep greater middle east under its thumb.

but if suddenly some Islamic republic becomes great that would be the end of American hegemony in greater middle east.
this deal is just the big step for Turkish space and ICBM program.
and this sensitive tech is not what America wants in turkeys hand. its as simple as that.
no body is going crazy over 3-4 billion dollars, that's nothing, its tech and tech that's making many people nervous.

and its just common sense that in future no matter what, turkey or mid east will side with east and not with west.
Chinese are betting on that and hoping that sooner or later turkey will join the east. so this tech transfer thing. east united is big big nightmare for west.

just answer this question. if America is so moral and just then why it always support jihadi pakis over democratic india.
reason. supporting india would gain nothing, india don't need usa support so no thanks and gratitude from india, but by supporting week country and making it competitive and encouraging it to fight makes American presence guarantied in south asia.
idiot pakis just to please americans have made their country a whore to usa. pffffff.


 
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Tr1986
(Login Turksta1986)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 4:17 AM 

^ I don't belive that india and pakistan are a problem to each other their problem is within them salves. Even if they both solved their own solutions within each other; being threat to each other would be over for good.


 
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WAFFer
(Login alex2727)
WAFFer

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 6:40 AM 

''I just love this...''

Do you know the meaning of good police ,bad police?Turkish army doesnt want to deteriorate its relation with USA..thats all....


''About half of Turkeys network-based air defense radar picture has been paid for by NATO. They are part of the NATO Air Defense Ground Environment. Without NATOs consent it will be impossible for Turkey to make the planned Chinese system interoperable with these assets, some analysts say.''

The point is Some Analysts Says!!!Dont Turkey have her own analysing capacity??

''To defend against missile threats, Turkey needs satellite and dedicated ballistic-missile detection and tracking radar, such as the NATO radar deployed last year in Kurecik, in southeastern Turkey.

For the anti-aircraft component, Turkey needs an overall picture for data fusion. The Patriot system, for instance, can detect threats with its own radar. So does the Chinese system. But without integrating into a full air picture, the Chinese system could not work efficiently, analysts said. ''


This project took more than 6 years for evaluation,Turkey wants to play big...All analyisations,talks bla bla to serve their aim....Our relation with USA similar to a father and a son ; when son gets mature ,father still sees him as a child.....In my opinion the base of problems are the reason which i mentioned....
El mexico dont be so sensetive still too early to talk but i can ensure you that you can not get the deal with the same offer...You will share technology or go away...it s state policy,not just Erdogan's policy...every single member of army is agree with the idea;having own technology and sovereignty over weapons....early or late we will have......we arent greeks....




    
This message has been edited by alex2727 on Nov 6, 2013 6:43 AM


 
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FalconBrawl
(Login FalconBrawl)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 8:25 AM 

LMAO, the reason why the chinese offer was chosen is because its also easy to make it compatible with Turkish Air defence network. Making circuits and chips is the easy for us and S.Korea did the exact same thing with Russia with thei KS-SAM.




         [linked image]

 
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Guy Fawkes
(Login TheKhun)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 8:37 AM 

I wouldn't buy US system which has backdoor and kill switch even it was free of charge. We can not limit our perception of friend or foe with only NATO (USA) doctrine because nothing is static in this world, no one can guarantee today's allies wouldn't be enemy in the future.
Simple example, will US system work against israel ? I don't think so.




 
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WAFFer
(Login alex2727)
WAFFer

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 9:11 AM 

''As you can see, jagare, alex2727, nutsack, and other WAFF armed chair turc jihadis...''

El mexico ,the person who wanna be yanky:)the sentences above show your perception of world,If someone comes from a muslim majority country and if that person doesnt support USA policy ,he / she is jihadist-terrorist,legitimate target for drones:)

 
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Nutuk
(Login nutuk)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 10:05 AM 

Lol all the news coming from Burak Bekdil (Defense News) and Lale Kemal (Janes defence) have to be taken with a grain of salt, since their paycheck come from American companies. These "independent" writers are the most fervent supporters of American weaponry, jeees I guess why?

Turkish stance is clear, we want technology transfer and if the free market guru USA cannot cope with competitions they should just sit on it happy.gif

--------------------------------------------
Turkiye Turklerindir (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)
[linked image]

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by nutuk on Nov 6, 2013 10:06 AM


 
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_Koniev
(Login _Koniev)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 10:47 AM 

I support Turks in here because their military and state as a whole should not be a US puppet state and subject of foreign influence.

Besides look at this way in few years time Turk will have air defense that is able to shoot missiles at 72 targets at once with more missiles on

their way. Thats much more than the whole US CBG can support. happy.gif


    
This message has been edited by _Koniev on Nov 6, 2013 11:03 AM


 
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WAFFer
(Login cr33pt3d)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 11:21 AM 

This whole thing is just a commercial trick to put even more pressure on the chinese side, there is no ******* way that the commity decide to give this to chinese without asking the military . impossible !.
so the army staff had to give green light, since they are the one who will use it, no way erdogan can decide this on his own!
I'm pretty confident the chinese are gonna sweeten the deal even more and we will end up getting the HQ-9 for cheaper.
Win - WIn situation for china and turkey.

as someone pointed out above, the problem here is not the money, coz 3-4 Billion is nothing on military deals like that, the whole dama is about turkey getting the technology, since Turkish stance against Israel is clear, US does not want hostile"ALLY" turkey to be any threat to Israel in the Future, nothing else.


    
This message has been edited by cr33pt3d on Nov 6, 2013 11:24 AM


 
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ruuuumler
(Login ruuuumler)
WAFFer

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 11:33 AM 

Cobra maneuver was yesterday; Russia's new mother of all maneuvers, the Flaming Eagle!

The west doesn't even come close to this!

[linked image]

 
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WAFFer
(Login cabatli_53)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 2:15 PM 

"Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles"


Turkish military is inside of desicion maker along with Undersecretariat of Turkish defence, MOD and PM. To claim such an absurd thing regarding a strategic tender arise from ignorance and idiocity.

Image during SSIK meeting strategic desicions taken...

[linked image]



[linked image]
Turk Insani Para Gibidir. Icine Isik Tut Ataturk Yoksa Sahtedir...


    
This message has been edited by cabatli_53 on Nov 6, 2013 2:18 PM


 
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WAFFer
(Login cabatli_53)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 2:42 PM 

An independant SAM missile technology at all layers without USA kill-swithces and unknown Electronic warfare tactics on radars which may be used against USA small brothers(When needed), just frighten our Ally. A completely unknown Long range missile system along with a different radar technology in the hand of Turks to be handled one of the European biggest radar and microwave module manufacturing/test center of Aselsan, bring to mind a nightmare scenario. No need to mention Turkish domestic Long range and THAAD equivalent SAM missile development plans to be based on received technology.

European biggest microwave module, radar manufacturing, assembly and test center, Aselsan REHIS have lots of big radar programs including Turkish Frigate main mast radar which will be an alternative of USA Aegis system.


Radar test
[linked image][linked image]

REHIS main center
[linked image]

[linked image]
Turk Insani Para Gibidir. Icine Isik Tut Ataturk Yoksa Sahtedir...


    
This message has been edited by cabatli_53 on Nov 6, 2013 2:46 PM


 
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2GOOD2LOSE
(Login DELIDOLUDELIKANLI)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 10:24 PM 

"...Our relation with USA similar to a father and a son ; when son gets mature ,father still sees him as a child..."




TURKEY: eat this!



GREEK ECONOMY: There is no light at the end of the tunnel.

[linked image]

WORKAROUND: YOUTUBE EMBED CODE GENERATOR >>>

 
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WAFFer
(Login c0lky7)
Moderators

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 10:30 PM 

F-16 replies "na, i can't do that (but could if i had TVC nozzles fitted), but i can shoot you down and me and bro F-15 have shot loads of your lot down and not one of us been shot down in return. I'm built for war, not the circus!!!" happy.gif

PS - thats only a bit of fun and i don't wanna get into that debate again...

[linked image]

 
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Kris
(Login ELWAPO)
Eagle Squadron (US)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 6 2013, 10:53 PM 

///Do you know the meaning of good police ,bad police?Turkish army doesnt want to deteriorate its relation with USA..thats all....///


Really? Do you have a source to back up that silly claim of yours?



///The point is Some Analysts Says!!!Dont Turkey have her own analysing capacity??///



Defense analyst, goof.





///This project took more than 6 years for evaluation,Turkey wants to play big...All analyisations,talks bla bla to serve their aim....Our relation with USA similar to a father and a son ; when son gets mature ,father still sees him as a child.....In my opinion the base of problems are the reason which i mentioned....///



Is that how you turcs see the US..? As a papa..? wow. I had no idea that's how you turcs see us. [linked image]



///El mexico dont be so sensetive still too early to talk but i can ensure you that you can not get the deal with the same offer...You will share technology or go away...///


We don't have to share anything, turc. You can use chinese crap all you want (I doubt it since turk generals think chinese missiles are
inferior) but the US is not going to allow you to integrate it with NATO networks. happy.gif



///it s state policy,not just Erdogan's policy...every single member of army is agree with the idea;having own technology and sovereignty over weapons....early or late we will have......we arent greeks....///



You want to be "sovereign" in weapons tech but in order to do that you need other countries tech.... don't you see the irony? [linked image]


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Guy Fawkes
(Login TheKhun)
The Conquerors (Turkey)

Re: Turkish military very unhappy with Chinese missiles, mad at US

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November 7 2013, 1:52 AM 

You want to be "sovereign" in weapons tech but in order to do that you need other countries tech.... don't you see the irony? [linked image]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We need other countries tech for not starting from the ground and saving time, it is just a shortcut.




 
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