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ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

March 21 2003 at 12:25 PM
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  (Login HughRFC)
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I just read the following link which was written by Michael TLV as he and Gregg Loewen, both ISFers, toured CES 2003 and then had a meeting which makes one pause and wonder about having your TV calibrated or at the least just who is doing the work. If you go to this link and go to the fifth paragraph of the fifth day you can read Michael's remarks about a disturbing conversation from which you can draw your own conclusions.

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/michaeltlv/ces_jan2003.html

 
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Carl
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Huh??

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March 21 2003, 4:42 PM 

What do you find upsetting about any of that?

Carl

 
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(Login petermwilson)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 21 2003, 5:48 PM 

Hi,
Not only don't i find it disturbing, i don't even find it surprising.

When i was shopping for my HD ready set almost 3 years ago now, i decided that the i wanted the dealers Quote to include a complete ISF calibration.
I took a list of the individual tweaks i wanted performed on my set from the Keohi web site and presented that list to each dealer with the proviso that if they were either incapeable or unwilling to perform all of this work to let me know and if they were the successful bidder, i would make arrangements for ISF'ing elsewhere and it would not (in my mind) affect my purchasing decision.

The dealer in Toronto who had the successful bid had a qualified ISF person on board but informed me that he was not comfortable doing some of the items on the list (which was also reflected in his price) and suggested that if i insisted on these other items i should have the work done by someone else.

I purchased the set from this dealer and had the calibration performed by Michael tlv who had been invited by enough people in the Toronto area to make a trip from western Canada worth his while.

My point here is that shopping for such services is as important as shopping for the hardgoods themselves, and there are certain calibrations that are manditory to be considered ISF'd where other tweaks are optional. Just make sure you know what you want and that your technician is willing and capable of doing the work. treat it like any other major purchase.

As far as the business of "who tells who" when there is a manufacturing issue with a cetain set, i think is too ridiculous for words, but i would certainly rather know before than after, thats one of the reasons why i visit the Keohi site often.

peter m.

 
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(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 21 2003, 6:03 PM 

Peter,

Is it possible to post all the things you wanted done and the model number of the TV?

Thanks

 
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(Login HughRFC)
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Bothersome

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March 21 2003, 7:02 PM 

I think what struck me was the fact that here we have a group of individuals (ISF) purporting to be professionals when in actuality we have the usual "used car" syndrome. I am suspecious of professionals in all areas but I usually find most to be honest, some are just not competent. So I was not expecting to find out that some "well known" people with the ISF designation were just plain crooks and it sounded like they might be a large percentage.

In the case of an ISF calibration I would have to go with someone like Richard where I know other people who have used him since I don't have a clue as to what is involved.

Hugh

 
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(Login theheadhunter)
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To Hugh

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March 21 2003, 9:11 PM 

Hugh:
If you decide to have a calibration done and you live in the Atlanta Metro, CERTAINLY you should call Richard. I speak from Pers. experience. You WILL pleased with ALL aspects of his work.
Buddy

 
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(Login Bill-T)
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ISF

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March 21 2003, 9:32 PM 

Sure, but what do you do when you live in Southern New Jersey?

 
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(Login HughRFC)
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Buddy and Bill T.

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March 21 2003, 10:00 PM 

Unfortunately, I don't live near ATL. I'm just outside Charlotte and I did see your comments on the Forum about Richard.

Bill T.:
Call Tony and he will fix everything.

Hugh

 
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(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 22 2003, 12:03 AM 

Tony who?

 
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(Login HughRFC)
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Soprano

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March 22 2003, 12:20 AM 

Tony Soprano

 
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(Login petermwilson)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 22 2003, 9:19 AM 

Greetings,

As per Richard's request, the following work was performed on my Toshiba 65h80.

Greyscale tracking*
White & Black level*
Color temperature*
Geometry
Focus (electrical & mechanical)
Horizontal and vertical center
Overscan
Convergence (static and dynamic)
Aperture
Chroma detail and enhancement
Scan Velocity Modulation Disconnection
Removal of protective screen

*Typically part of ISF service. The rest is under the umbrella of extra
The work was performed in about 5hrs and cost $600.00cdn

Please don't ask me to explain any of these items.

Peter m.

 
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(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 22 2003, 11:17 AM 

Peter,

Did you generate your list of cals based on research at Keohi?


To all,

The Keohi thread that Hugh posted is currently being discussed within the ISF community. I am preparing a statement to clarify what generated this poor piece of journalism and it will not be a slam against Keohi.

Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Certified
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD

 
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Bill T.
(Login Bill-T)
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Peter:

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March 22 2003, 11:33 AM 

What is your impression post-calibration? You didn't say!

 
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(Login petermwilson)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 22 2003, 11:57 AM 

Hi,
The list of tweaks that i posted is a longstanding list that i was referred to in one of the forums when i was researching which set to buy.

I am extremely happy with the results.
As it happens when Michael Chen (Michael tlv) had decided to come to Toronto it was his first (out of towner) as a calabrationist and the person who was doing the organizing fell by the wayside and i took over.

The only reason that i mention this is because by the end of his tour it was not just my opinion that i was exposed too, and all but one were very positive and that one person had a broken tv set and needed a repair tech which ISF'rs do not necessarily have to be.

Subsequently Michael TLV has made 2 more trips to Ontario which were created by word of mouth advertising and i was not involved in at all.

The only thing i have to ad is that i feel it is extremely important to have a pj and rptv ISF'd to get the most from your significant investment.

peter m.

 
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(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 24 2003, 4:29 PM 

The article from Keohi revolves around a number of social issues and philosphy of products, markets and money. In the end it was poor journalism and they used their resources to air out their bruised feelings caused by the meeting.

Consumer Displays
Consumer displays are not perfect because the consumer does not want to spend that much money. To demand that consumer displays have the same response as broadcast displays is ludicrous. Another part of this is nobody makes a TV that does not break or have problems just like cars. The key when something breaks is what kind of support do all of us get from the manufacturer. So far, for well known brands, we have been taken care of. One of the issues Keohi has is that manufacturers are not putting forth a recall on known problems for current products and implementing corrections only on yet to be released new products. Who else in manufacturing is not guilty of this and more importantly why have a recall on all products when only 2% are seeing the problem? Nearly all the issues with Keohi are performance related. Even when this is a safety issue the final decision will rest on which is more expensive, the recall or paying out claims balanced against potential negative press. There is nothing new here in this regard.

Nearly all calibrations done by the Keohi team are reference bringing many consumer display devices to near broadcast reference. This is a great service for those who are seeking it yet like all things in life you will run into diminishing returns as you strive towards perfection. Does it really matter to the average consumer or videophile for that matter that the picture is off center by 1-2 inches on a 65" display? That a product has 4% overscan rather than 6%? That the linearity is slightly off but would require you to actually measure this to even know? This is what Keohi is all about and is also their reference point for many of their accusations directed towards the ISF and TV manufacturers. The problem is that Keohi and their goals represent maybe 1% of the buying public. Expecting manufacturers to make all these changes for these people when the other 99% could care less is insane.

An analogy here would be my argument about how sports cars are the safest form of transportation on the planet. Lets not get into a debate over my argument and agree with this for a moment just for kicks and grins. Would it then be the right thing to force every person in America into a 2 seater sports car? Of course not!

The ISF is a conduit between the customer and manufacturer for proper imaging. We make it possible for consumers to have a more accurate presentation of images if they so desire. This works well for all parties while keeping prices low for retail product. When this system is followed everybody is happy. Unfortunately there are those who are trying to circumvent this system using the internet. Over the last couple of years a number of sites have become popular by providing free information for consumers to calibrate their own displays by accessing service only options either via a menu or opening up the product and twisting controls. Most of these sites are somehow related to ISF calibrators. The main reason these sites have shown up is due to good old human nature - saving money and those greedy manufacturers plus ISF calibrators I might add. There is an air of socialism to it as if this capability is some sort of birth right for all consumers that should be available for free. Few will appreciate the hard work and sweat that goes into determining what data values are necessary for the proper response. The data is cheap, figuring it all out is not. Apparently Keohi and others do not put much value on the hard work of themselves and fellow calibrators. History shows that those who follow this line of thinking end up out of business!

If you were a manufacturer of a product that the majority liked yet were receiving negative press from a group of folks who represent a very small percentage yet appear to have a large voice, how would you react? How would you feel that your product is being torn down and scrutinized to a level of performance it was not designed for? How would you feel about your service manuals, service bulletins and service access codes being freely available at the click of a button and purchasers of your product fiddling around with it not to mention the copyright issues? How would you feel about a number of warranty service claims that appear to be related to end users causing problems with your product by messing around with them and then holding you responsible for the failure? How would you feel getting products returned to the factory as defective only to find the defect is due to modification or tweaking? Now weigh all that against a group called the ISF who over a decade ago brought all this stuff up but kept it between themselves and those customers wanting this service but by bringing this to the customers attention indirectly created all these problems for you the manufacturer via the internet? You might very well go to the root and blame the ISF instead of those directly responsible for this. This is why the Keohi team was asked to stop reporting every little flaw they come across. Some manufacturers are shutting the ISF out due to all the above. As a servicer I am constantly reminded of this since Mitsubishi changes the service menu access codes every year due to the internet. Keohi is breaking copyright law by posting service manuals on their site. I on the other hand have to pay for those manuals and also sign a non-disclosure agreement with the manufacturer.





ISF Calibration
As mentioned the Keohi team are reference calibrators and the calibration community applaud their skills and the many tweaks they have brought to our attention. The fact remains that a basic ISF calibration yields the most significant results for the average consumer. When reading some of their material you will find that they appear to down play a basic calibration all the while promoting a reference calibration. A basic is $300 but their reference is about $600-800 for RPTV. You will not see twice as much improvement in overall picture quality by choosing the reference calibration - diminishing returns. In fact Keohi may very well be guilty of their own accusations. One of the calibrators posted on their site does not place great value on reference calibration of consumer RPTV and has said often within the ISF community “it is just TV” yet he is one of the top calibrators for reference calibration which he will gladly do on reference products. Another calibrator listed does not take an optical comparator with him, uses a color analyzer that will not perform correctly with the majority of consumer products and performs geometry without using any sort of jig for a straight line reference yet he is also known as one of the top calibrators for reference calibrations. The reality is that most of the problems Keohi is complaining about are related to the very high standards of Keohi rather than the common standards of the general ISF community within the consumer market.

Not all is rosy within the ISF. Name me an organization where it is? Nearly all our problems are related to calibrators or web sites fighting over customers and pricing. We have a few problems with quality issues and the community I work with promotes working this out privately and getting those with the problems up to speed. Those ISF calibrators outside of our community have a tendency to publicly slam the offending calibrator and the ISF while making themselves the savior. Of course the client will publicly announce that X calibrator is bad and Y calibrator is a hero. Pricing issues are based on the fact that some calibrators are not maintaining minimum pricing as set forth by the ISF. This is a difficult issue and there is no recourse for the ISF when a calibrator charges less. There are multiple reasons for pricing controls in all industries and the ISF is no different. Ultimately we are getting back to individuals deciding what they think their knowledge and service is worth. We are also dealing with competitive prcatices where calibrator A will perform this list for X amount and calibrator B steps in to say not only will he add some extras to that list he will do it for less at Y amount, capitalism 101. Unfortunately this only causes price erosion for the rest of us. Speaking for Mastertech it is imperative we maintain minimum ISF pricing because if we were to charge less we would have to consider not doing them anymore. It actually takes more time to perform a calibration and educate a customer than to simply repair a unit and perform a minor non-ISF calibration.

Conclusion
No personal statements here. The following is an excerpt from Liberty magazine that is unrelated to TV but is very fitting to this discussion.

“Is it a naive belief that markets are always right? In a sense, of course, they are. But they don’t necessarily or even usually reward excellence. Only the ability to supply what people want. People do not always, or even usually, want excellence. To economists, of course, the term “excellence” is meaningless, indistinguishable from whatever is wanted by some buyers. Everyone always thinks his choice is the most excellent of the alternatives; otherwise he wouldn’t have chosen it. But there is another kind of excellence, the excellence of being well adapted and well designed to serve intended purposes. It is with this sort of excellence in mind that Macintosh enthusiasts decry the Windows operating system as an inferior product despite its market dominance.”

Replace Macintosh and Windows with some other technology, groups or level of performance. Supply and demand is the reality of the market place.

I also add this link to a thread in the HDTV Magazine Forum. You will have to scroll through it to get to an excerpt from Aynn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, for perspective on “free” and how we value our knowledge and skills and those of others.

Best Buy, Discounts and Morals
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=213962&messageid=1039826995&lp=


Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Certified
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD

 
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(Login petermwilson)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 24 2003, 7:11 PM 

DearRichard,
What in the world are you talking about?

Are you taking a position? if so, on what?
Are you critisizing something or someones opinion.

I haven't read anything about a suggested wholesale recall of a tv set.
what 2% are you talking about?

You have used the word journalism a couple of times.
Who are the journalists.
These are people like you and I discussing their experiences and opinions of what transpired.

If i want journalisim i can read "THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER", but what i read there won't necessarily be true either.

I get a vague sense that your defending something. I don't think it's the free market economy, it doesn't seem to need your help. What is it?

What people do with there tv's is up to them. If i were going to voice any opinion here it would be that the more they putz around with the innards of their displays the more likely they will soon be needing your help.

I have always looked at the Keohi site as a hangout for some ISF'rs who don't necessarily share the same opinions or do things the same way.
As a matter of fact i find it quite individualistic.

Anyway, i do not mean any disrespect, i just don't think that there is anything that HDTV MAGAZINE has to take a position on. Perhaps MASTERTECH feels differently but that is not the concern of this membership IMO.

Peter m.

 
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(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 24 2003, 7:26 PM 

Peter,

On your calibration most of the items are covered under basic. There are only a few extras. Glad to hear you were satisified with the results. Michael TLV certainly does good work.

I almost forgot to add that how you went about getting your calibration done was great and a good example. It can be frustrating if you are looking for this level of service. Most are just calibrators that work within the normal design and intent of the product. Michael and company are not only calibrators but tweakers who go much further and if that is what you want then he as well as others are out there.

BTW, removal of the protective screen could void exchange rights of a product but having the electrnics repaired should not be an issue.

Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Certified
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD


    
This message has been edited by mastertechtv on Mar 24, 2003 7:34 PM


 
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(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: ISF As We Hope It Really Isn't

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March 24 2003, 7:57 PM 

Peter,

As for the main topic of this thread I wasn't sure if I should respond or just let it go away. Anybody who does deep research into a calibration will run into the issues brought up by this thread. It is interesting that you found it all of no real significance. I do. Guess that is because I am one. If it were not for Hugh's post I could have left it alone. I appreciate Hugh's participation on this Forum and his response was also an opening for me to deal with this topic. Based on the Keohi thread Hugh read everything just as it was stated and responded in exactly the way one would expect. I have been wondering why it took so long. It has been hinted at via posts requesting service information for self calibration which I have had to stop or lock but they also never went far enough for me to respond.

I am sorry you found my response of no value. For me it has come up, there has been a response and now this thread will be logged in the links thread for future reference if it should come up again.

>>i just don't think that there is anything that HDTV MAGAZINE has to take a position on.

But that is exactly what this publication and the publisher Dale Cripps is all about! Taking a stance! All subscribers are also members of the HDTV Association of America. This is a lobbying group to take a stance in Washington for quality HDTV.

One of my funtions here is to technically moderate the forum. This thread brings up technical issues in the marketplace.

Officially and this will be added to the rules:
HDTV Magazine Forum fully supports the ISF calibration process using either a calibration DVD and customer controls or having a professional go deeper using a service manual and test equipment. HDTV Magazine does not support any postings on the Forum for going beyond the customer controls. If you want this kind of information it is on the internet easily found using a search engine.


Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Certified
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD

 
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