Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD
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I have a 50 inch Pioneer plasma that I wouldn't trade for anything. So far, at least. I bought it on the Net a year ago for $8400 when "Best Buy" was still asking $13,000. I expect there are still deals like that around........
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When you get into fixed pixels it gets real expensive to get 1080i. Do the math: it takes more than twice as many pixels to do 1080i as it does to do 720p. The Sammy DLPs native resolution is 720. 1080i has to be converted to 720p.
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Although LCOS is a "digital light processor", I was under the impression that for the sake of discussion, DLP referred to micro-mirror technology only.
Anyway, when did Mits come out with the LCOS set? Granted, I can't spend $20k on a TV, but I thought a 3 chip DLP projector was pretty much the "King-of-the-Hill-of-the-day" for 720p. I'd like to view a 1080i fixed pixel in a screen that big just for the experience, though I won't own one for myself for quite some time...
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Walk away to get a cup of coffee and the whole horizon shifts. Sorry, answered my own question: the Mits WL-82913 looks like the current "King-of-ALL-the-Hills".
Richard, have you tested one of these beasts yet?
Only 1 DVI input? Well, forget it then!
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For pure picture quality you just can't beat the Sony direct-view Trinitron tube sets. My KD34XBR2 is fully 1080i, 16:9 widescreen, and spectacular. True, it's only a 34" set, but in my living room that's big enough....especially with the "through an open window" quality of the image.
And the XBR2 came with a full ATSC OTA tuner included!
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>>For pure picture quality you just can't beat the Sony direct-view Trinitron tube sets.
That is a great display that takes full advantage of DTV technology, perceptually very entertaining and with calibration should have fairly accurate color. Unfortunately it will never fully resolve HDTV or DVD resolution due to pixel structure. Please don't shoot the messenger - it is an extended definition display with a 1080I scan rate. It makes a great family room display with the wide viewing angle it provides.
Grumpy,
These digital displays are still battling black problems which can be overcome provided you are not seeking a darkened HT room experience. Much of the recent review of the Toshiba will apply to this unit as well.
CRT projection remains KING for another year!
Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD
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I looked at my options and purchased a
Sony 34xbr910 tonight. I already have a big screen
in my den, but since HDTV is all about definition,
I felt I wanted the highest resolution I could buy.
The Lcd's look good but I wanted a bit bigger screen,
34" viewed close just makes it. What I dont like is how the stores dont try to demonstrate the HDTV's
looking their best, or even close. Two years ago I
saw my tv's prior model a Sony 34xbr1 at a local store
hooked up to a rooftop antenna, displaying a Knicks game. I was stunned by the picture, and unfortunately
in the two years since I havent seen a true full HDTV
program. I see a lot of cool TV's out there today but
if you can settle for a 34" or smaller screen the Sony
direct view TV's are still absolutely remarkable. I
believe that these products are the engineer's private
odyssy.
I got a good deal TV + stand + 5 year warrenty for 2050. I will review this TV when I figure it out and get it calibrated if need be.
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>>I looked at my options and purchased a
Sony 34xbr910 tonight. I already have a big screen
in my den, but since HDTV is all about definition,
I felt I wanted the highest resolution I could buy.
Did you read the earlier post about resolution and this display?
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YOU STATE "IT WILL NEVER FULLY RESOLVE HDTV OR
DVD RESOLUTION DUE TO PIXEL STRUCTURE, are you for real? What exactly do you mean? And yes I understand
the difference between analog and digital displays, pixels and aperature slots!
" With 1401 hor. measured grille slots it has a higher resolution than competing brands, and also exceeds the
resolution of the higest RESOLVING plasmas which have
852 pixels for 32" and 1024 for 42", and of Lcd panels
which currently max out at 1280 hor pixels for screens from 30 to 37". (LCoS also is maxed out at 1280 at present)
This article is written by an engineer and he states, The Sony produced the finest HD picture I have ever seen on a consumer direct view CRT television. It is a must have for any videophile seeking a best in class widescreen TV. ( Not bad for a old analog crt technology)
Conclusion:" Sony's Kv34xbr910 proves not only that tubes are alive and kicking but that CRT technology
still sets the standard in video performance that other technologies are trying to match. Sure you can
buy a similar sized HDTV grade plasma set for five grand that will look cool on the wall but this set will deliver superior image quality at half the price.
And Richard you will be pleased to know that both reviewers stressed the need for professional calibration of this unit.
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Thank you for bringing this to my attention. The first poster has a KD34XBR2 and this is not the TV you are talking about. The second poster says “Two years ago I saw my tv's prior model a Sony 34xbr1 at a local store” but that is not the same TV either. It appears he bought this one based on what he liked about the older model.
This is a new product from Sony and is not to be confused with other DV displays. As stated in the TPV review...
“The only company to introduce a new, improved direct-view (CRT) television tube this year is Sony. It has just premiered two HD monitors, the 30" KV-30XBR910 and the 34" KV-34XBR910. I chose the $2800 KV-34XBR910 for this review. “
I just received the magazine and had not read the review. This appears to be the real McCoy based on what I skimmed over. Now to put that in perspective it still will not fully resolve HD resolution but it is an equal to what CRT based RPTVs are doing.
THAT IS A VERY BIG DEAL!
A direct view with that kind of resolution and at the shocking price of $2700 is unheard of. I don’t have the time to thoroughly go over the review right now but just based on surface numbers it is impressive indeed! Gary has missed a number of artifacts on past products so take the review with a grain of salt. Resolution is not everything but it is an important part of accurate imaging.
As for the second link you listed it is irrelevant to my point since this person did not check for resolution. That is one of my pet peeves and is how SD televisions with HD labels are making it into the market place with the end user thinking they are getting a decent response for resolution when they obviously are not.
It was noted in the second article that the color decoder has red push and the color temp was off. Definitely get this product calibrated and you will have reference quality imaging in comparison to the rest of the market place.
If you want REAL HD it is still over $10,000 and you should contact an ISF calibrator/dealer for sales, service and support.
Hmm. $2700...
Tempting!
But it is so small...
Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD
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Well, just so happens this magazine was up next in the pile so I went to the review. I typically don’t do this on the Forum but here are some of things I have to deal with when reading reviews and recommending a display for my product selection service.
“Right out of the gate, the 34XBR910 wins the resolution race for its size category. This TV boasts a whopping 65% increase in horizontal resolution compared to all previous and current Sony widescreen “standard” direct views, with 1401 horizontally-measured aperture grille slots (see sidebar) in its new “Super Fine Pitch” CRT versus the 847 in Sony’s standard-pitch widescreen tubes.”
Just because the screen and shadow mask has such a high count does not mean the electronics are up to the task. Same goes for the tube. That 847 pitch tube will not resolve DVD resolution even though the numbers imply it will.
“It also exceeds the resolution capability of the highest-resolving plasmas, which have 852 horizontal pixels for 32" and 1024 for 42" screens, and of LCD panels, which currently max out at 1280 horizontal pixels for screens from 30" to 37".”
Notice here in this statement he is comparing screen sizes. The larger panels will do 720P and 1080I plasma is about to hit the stores.
“The ones most sorely missed are direct-input access, picture-adjustment memories for each individual input, the ability to change more than one picture settings without exiting and reentering the “menu,” and automatic film detection to engage 3-2 pulldown when the Digital Reality Creation circuit (DRC is Sony’s name for its scaler that upconverts 480i source material) senses film-based source material.”
If want accuracy this will cause problems unless you use an external scaler which will also resolve the individual input calibration problem.
“Sony still does not have a number value associated with picture-control settings. Once again, I was forced to count thin hash marks one at a time to keep a record of my reference settings.”
That really needs to change. This makes it just that more difficult for the end user.
“The DRC was put through its paces. I first tested it with a variety of cable and DIRECTV standard-definition signals. The results were excellent, comparing very favorably with the 480i display of the same channels on the 34" Sampo I placed alongside the Sony. This was the case even with poor-quality cable channels.”
This is where you must be careful with this author. I have seen this scaler and it is destructive to the original signal. Based on this and past articles either he does not know his artifacts or is taking the arrogant position that if they don’t bother him then they won’t bother you. Bottom line is you will not get accuracy with this internal scaler but depending on your background and viewing habits you may very well find it acceptable. I would not.
“Red phosphor was typically Sony, which casts it in the orange-red range. This probably would only be noticeable to most consumers when the set was directly compared to a set with more accurate reds, such as the Sampo.”
Or those consumers who know what real color looks like because they attend a decent theater. I wish he would have measured the primaries but TPV does not do that.
>>Using a progressive DVD player with the TV, I found the Sony was capable of displaying the 6.75MHz test pattern
This is actually the only real resolution test he performed. I’ll explain...
“DVE contains an extensive array of test patterns and some original HD content. I concentrated on its multi-burst patterns, which are used to examine HD display resolution capabilities. The top pattern I could resolve was the 22MHz pattern, which by no coincidence matches up to the set’s super-fine picture tube’s 1400+ horizontal resolution.”
DVE is a very poor resolution test due to excessive roll off from the JVC decks. On ANY display you won’t get past 22Mhz anyway due to this problem. He should have performed this with a pattern generator. I am skeptical if it will really resolve this resolution correctly for the same reasons that the 847 slot CRT would not resolve DVD properly. He saw something so I’ll just say at this point it is outperforming the old stuff which does say a lot.
“I was able to correct to almost absolute perfection the set’s color balance, eliminating red (and green) push with 480i, 480p, and 1080i sources.”
Note that the second review link did not mention any green push - just red. This kind of confusion is what drives me nuts.
“SD cable and satellite pictures were superb!”
Satellite superb? Huh? This is utter nonsense. This makes his subjective comments highly suspect.
“DVD images looked very good in the 480i mode but really shined when I used a progressive (480p) player.”
Ok. Reality check here. What he really means is that 480I DVD has artifacts due to the internal scaler and 480P looks much better because the internal scaler is being bypassed.
“The overall result with DVI was the best looking direct-view DVD image I have ever seen. “
Which player? The current crop has artifacts. My experience will not allow me to believe this.
“The only disappointment was image sharpness. It was very sharp, but only slightly sharper than the Sampo alongside it. I expected more detail, so I began to experiment. I turned down the white level (Picture in Sony jargon) control to 21 hash marks, which corresponded to 15fL, and the image detail increased considerably. Threads on actors’ garments were now visible on the Sony but not on the Sampo. Sony’s engineer confirmed that, with the super-fine flat tube, a lowering of contrast results in a reduction of electron beam spot size, to a point where it would correspond accurately to the tube’s fine pitch.”
That is a shocking statement. Didn’t he just calibrate the display? The first step in any calibration is to determine linear light output. That means how much light can we throw up on the screen without driving it out of focus or blooming. The purpose is to make the beam spot the smallest it can be for maximum resolution. So he has now done half the review with the wrong setting for contrast/picture. As an industry pro it is remarkable that the Sony engineer had to confirm such a basic concept.
“To perform an A/B comparison I devised the following wiring scheme to allow for the fact that D-VHS decks do not have DVI outputs (only FireWire) and conversely that the 34XBR910 does not have FireWire input (only DVI).”
He is behind the times. This test is so flawed it is ridiculous. He is about to compare a severely rolled off JVC deck with a DVI connection. I am speechless. The only thing he will determine from this is D/A conversion. A real test pattern generator would have been helpful in drawing some conclusions. The best case would be to measure the response to the tube. This has little value.
“The Sony engineer later commented on the component outputs of his D-Theater deck: “The –3dB point was at about 17MHz.” This would explain the loss of detail.”
That is 3 months of old news. Glad the Sony engineer was there. WSR broke that story August 2003.
“fantastic upconversion of analog sources, “
That is so false it makes me sick. The internal scaler stinks. Your mileage may vary. About 2 years ago the magazines were all bemoaning internal scalers and then stopped. They didn’t get that much better folks. This can only be due to pressure from within the industry. I have clients who can see this stuff and they are not pleased one bit until they have a decent external scaler. Any reference system I recommend includes an external scaler.
Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD
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"Conclusion:" Sony's Kv34xbr910 proves not only that tubes are alive and kicking but that CRT technology
still sets the standard in video performance that other technologies are trying to match. Sure you can
buy a similar sized HDTV grade plasma set for five grand that will look cool on the wall but this set will deliver superior image quality at half the price".
The picture is truly awesome. My 40" is even better!
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OK, so I went to the local CC last night to look at this TV (and to pick up "Finding Nemo...).
They were sending all the HDTVs the same signal, which included clips from Sports, some nature shows with a blue and yellow frog, and then some 4:3 source crud that looked upconverted to 1080i with black side bars.
The Kv34xbr910 was NOT all that impressive at first. Of course, this is in a brightly lit showroom, and they had it set to "Vivid". I requested the remote and changed it to "Pro", set color down to about 1/4, set "Picture" down to about 1/2, and set the "Temp" to film. This improved the horrible color blooming and "Bam!" effect it had at first.
Now the sales rep is mad at me because "It don't grab my attention no more." Good grief pal...
It looked better, but no matter what I did with the user controls, I could not get what I thought was an acceptable black. The sharpness of the picture was indeed the best I've seen for a direct view, but when I tried standing at roughly 3 times the verticle height of the display, I was able to pick out the pixel structure, even with the HD source. It appeared to be better than DVD, but not as good as a few of the RPTVs that were near it, showing the same material.
I was hoping this TV was going to knock me down with PQ, since it would be easier to convince some of my friends to buy this (current Sony DV owners), but it just didn't have the smoothness and DEPTH of a good RPTV. But then again, plamas don't really impress me either and I'm definitely NOT an ISF certified product reviewer...
... anyhoo, that was my opinion if any body cares.
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>>It looked better, but no matter what I did with the user controls, I could not get what I thought was an acceptable black.
Hmm. Store lighting maybe? That is odd. I would not trust TPV to tell us that if it really does have a problem.
>>when I tried standing at roughly 3 times the verticle height of the display, I was able to pick out the pixel structure,
That actually makes sense and just based on numbers I should have suspected that. Plasma has the same problem with a 1280 pixel sturcture and 1400 is close enough. The new 1920X1080 plasma panels will hit soon and should make this far more difficult to see. I can already hear the mass market complaining that they don't look as sharp as the 1280X720 panels - of course not - it is an artifact! ARGH!
Grumpy,
I do believe you are turning into a videophile.
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1000 lines widescreen, if this thing doesnt FULLY
resolve HDTV nothing will. Price for a sweet 32"
lowly CRT called DTV is only 39,000 + the cost
of boards to plug into it. The remote is only 795.
The optional boards will let you plug almost anything
you want into it. I mean anything. ANYTHING.
I think when they invented HDTV they wished they had a
monster like this to display it on, they definately did not have LCoS.
I was going to buy a Sony 20" monitor with 800 lines
plus a board for a firewire plugin, for video production. But I figured out for 2050, I should just
get a HDTV monitor/TV and use that. And save some $.
One of my friends did the Special effects editing,
in Morroco, just off site, for the movie Gladiator.
He told me they had some really high end SONY monitors
they were working on. Not LCos or DLP just plain old
CRT's. WHAT?
Full HDTV is 1900+ technology, 10,000 + prices is not
for most of us, I am using my Tv only 7 feet away, and
I didnt get my PSEUDO HDTV cable box yet, but playing
my mini Dv corder thru the S input is leaving me speachless. No consumer TV does 1900, NONE.
For $2050, I am happy, Stand + 5 year guar, included.
I will review this set when I get the Cablevision plugged into it and again when I get an antenna on the roof.
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I had 5 people watch "The Matrix" on the company 800x600 InFocus DLP on Friday. 1 out the 5 people was unable to watch the movie at all, due to the "rainbow" effect of the color wheel. 3 of the remaining 5 were significantly distracted by it.
This means the DLP technology from just last year is unacceptable to 4 out 5 viewers, including myself, for viewing movies. It's probably fine for office presentations like the material that this particular projecter was meant for. I hope the next level (spiral wheels, faster wheels...) is MUCH better than what I saw.
I will now duck, to avoid the objects hurled at me by the Samsung DLP owners...
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4 out 5? Wow. The ratio is typically not that high.
They are trying to overcome this by adding more sections to the color wheel. The best solution is three chip but in DLP land this appears to be VERY expensive. Most LCD is 3 chip, maybe all of them. All the current LCoS is 3 chip. Hmm. Maybe that's why they have run out of parts...
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The 84'' LCOS Misubishi has a native resolution of 1080p not 1080i.
– Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America Inc. today introduced the Mitsubishi Alpha 82” Widescreen HDTV featuring 1080 x 1920 resolution, the consumer electronics industry’s largest-ever HDTV. Featuring Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCoS) reflective LCD technology, super-high precision optics, and the highest performance digital receiver and processing circuits ever created by Mitsubishi Electric, this new Alpha television surpasses all previous standards of performance. Suggested value pricing for the Mitsubishi Alpha is $20,999. .The Mitsubishi Alpha is a true multi-media HDTV, with direct computer input resolutions from VGA to W-XGA to direct native mode 1080 x 1920, and also incorporates all the HDTV features found in their Diamond Series HDTVs. These include a third-generation digital receiver, FireWire (IEEE-1394) network connections, Home Audio Video interoperability (HAVi) system control software, and the NetCommand on-screen, icon-based home theater control system, including version 3.0 which has the ability to learn the IR commands from any home theater product. “ Then, add PC capability, multi-format card readers for viewing digital photographs and listening to digital audio files, and an amazing list of features, coupled with the NetCommand 3.0 control system, so it’s the easiest-to-use HDTV ever built,” said Robert A. Perry, vice-president, marketing. “Whether it’s watching high-definition broadcasts recorded
via FireWire or surfing the web with the family, the 82” Mitsubishi Alpha redefines “home theater” and family entertainment.” In related news releases, the company announced its complete line-up of HD-Upgradeable televisions and displays, as well as integrated HDTVs, HD-5000 HDTV Receiver/Controller, HD-Upgradeable LCD televisions, DVD players and digital/analog recorders. Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. (MDEA) manufactures and markets a comprehensive line of premium quality high-definition projection televisions, HD LCD televisions, HD and ED plasma displays, as well as HD VCRs, tuners and related products for complete home theater systems. Recognized as the world leader and innovator of big screen and digital television receiver technology, MDEA develops audio and video products that lead the industry in performance, ease-of-use and system integration.
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LCoS may be 1920X1080 but it still has very poor blacks. this causes extremely poor contrast ratio and it is not an accurate display. Neither are the Toshibas.
Black level continues to plaque the fixed pixel display industry.
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1) Do three chip DLP systems have convergence problems?
2) Does the convergence change slightly during warm up like a three CRT based RPTV?
Since is only has one light source and a prism I would hope convergence would be a "set and forget" control, but I was wondering if the members who have worked with three DLP projectors had any feedback... digital movie theater employees, I'd assume.
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Videophiles..those who use TV for a living overwhelmingly rate the direct view sets as best in reproducing anything in the up to 40" range. I have to agree...when I go to the store after spending a week on my 40" XBR Sony, the DLP's and LCD's look washed out without the contrast and detail I am used to. No way they have the detail and color saturation and contrast of the CRT XBR sets.
That said..making a CRT bigger than 40" is not in the cards...even those have magnetic artifacts that Sony cannot solve. So if bigger is an absolute must...like at my pub, The Sony LCD third generation sets are my choice.
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