I am looking for a larger HDTV compatible TV than I currently own - Sony KV-36XBR400.

Today I took a look at the Sony Grand Wega line. One dealer was showing the "Men in Black" DVD on the 50 inch model. The other was showing the HDTV broadcast of the CBS college football game on the 60 inch model and an animated DVD on the 42 inch model. I was impressed with the picture quality on all these displays. Both dealers said these are their best selling televisions. They cannot keep them in stock.

They all have the connections that I am looking for, includng DVI -
Component video (Y/Pb/Pr) Inputs : 2 rear (1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i)
Composite Inputs : 1 front/ 2 rear
S Video Inputs : 1 front/ 2 rear
DVI-HDTV Interface : 1 rear
Audio Inputs : 1 front/ 5 rear
Control S in/out : 1 rear

The size is right ... 50 inch would be perfect (I can accomodate 42-50 inches).

The price is right ... list is CA$4999 ... I know I can get a better price from the dealers in this city.

Any thoughts on the new Grand Wegas. Any other sets that I should consider in the 42-50 inch range in the CA$5000 price range? Be known that I am not a big fan of plasmas!

HiDefBob

LOOK AT THE SAMSUNG 50" DLP @ $3995.00.

Grand Wega's are LCD, right?

This from The Perfect Vision magazine, July/August 2003

Gary Merson

 

There has been a change in the marketing of high-definition RPTVs that merits your attention. The tradition of promoting and pricing HDTV according to the “good, better, best” business model has been skewed. When Sony first introduced transmissive LCD sets in late 2001, I sat back and figured, “Let the marketplace decide on whether this technology sinks or swims.” In 2002, Panasonic introduced its own LCD HD rear projectors. The proverbial “straw that broke the3 camel’s back” arrived, for me, with the latest issue of Consumer Reports. Dismay set in when I read in the March 2003 edition that CR had rated the 45” Panasonic PT45LC12 LCD as the best HDTV rear projector among the thirteen models tested. Consumers Union did not give the specifics about how it decided this set deserved a “top rating,” other than to say the score was based primarily on picture quality.

 

Transmissive LCDs are made up of three small panels (less than 2” each) sandwiched together to allow light to pass through them onto a screen, like a film slide in a projector. Let the truth be known: Transmissive LCD rear projection HDTVs make poor HD pictures! Price and sold as “the best” HDTV rear projectors, they are inferior to CRT, DLPs, and LCoS models. Here’s why.

 

Good high definition means more than a high pixel count (to qualify as HD, a digital fixed-matrix display, like transmissive LCD, DLP, or LCoS, has to have at least 720 vertical pixels). To make a good picture you need a good contrast ratio, as well as uniform color, good gamma (I will explain), good grayscale, a smooth structure (called fill factor), and long-term reliability.

 

Let me begin with contrast ratio --- the ratio of the brightest whites to the darkest blacks. Simply put, all LCD transmissive rear projectors have lousy contrast ratios. With LCD RPTVs, contrast ratio is so poor that Sony does not publish a figure for its Grand WEGA line, and neither does Panasonic for its LCD models. These projectors simply cannot make a dark black. And I have yet to observe one with a peak brightness that equals today’s CRT rear projectors.

 

Color uniformity is also poor with LCD RPTVs. When I generate a solid color field on the screen of an LCD rear projector, I observe areas of different hues.

 

Gamma is the ability of a display device to go linearly from black to white. The various LCD rear projectors I’ve observed tend to crush the light areas of the picture, causing brightly lit content to appear washed out and lacing in detail, like an over-exposed photograph.

 

As for grayscale, all the LCD projectors I have seen on showroom floors show a dark blue or purple in dark areas of the screen that should appear black. This may be color-correctable with as ISF calibration, though the dark areas will always be lit up no matter how low the brightness level is set. On the other hand, CRT HD rear projectors always hold black at black (when brightness is properly adjusted) and low-level areas are usually closer to neutral gray than they are with the LCD rear projectors I’ve observed.

 

Additionally, pixel structure is far more apparent in an LCD set than it is with other digital displays (DLP or LCoS) due to the greater amount of space between the panel’s pixels. (This has also been called the “screen-door effect.”) The larger the display and the closer you are to the screen the more apparent this anomaly becomes.

 

Last is the issue of reliability, i.e., dead pixels. In the transmissive LCD RPTVs I’ve seen on many showroom floors, most sets have had at least one dead pixel. Dead pixels can result in a permanent red, blue, or green dot on the screen. Moreover, I have seen LCD displays produce additional dead pixels as they age. Though such a thing is possible, I have yet to see an HD DLP display with a stuck mirror.

 

All the above factors result in a markedly inferior picture when LCD is compared to CRT, DLP, or LCoS rear projection. The only advantage to transmissive LCD over CRT rear projection is form factor: Light-driven displays can be made slimmer than CRT-based designs.

 

In conclusion, I cannot recommend any transmissive LCD rear-projection television. If you want the form factor they provide with a much higher quality picture, purchase an HD LDP (they are comparably priced) or LCoS projector.

Everyone is going to have their favorite but I would certainly have to look at the Pioneer Elite 530HDi which can be purchased at far under retail from authorized dealers. I've got the 520HD and it is an excellent RPTV CRT tv. And definitely under $5k Canadian. This is a 53".

Hugh

I think the new Sony LCD Grand Wega are exceptionally great sets. The Sammy DLP models are close to them but have a slightly brighter picture.I believe the 50" Sony GW version will come with an XBR model soon.

Panasonic and Hitachi both have awesome new large RPTV LCD sets as well.

How anyone cannot recommend these new LCD RPTV's, is beyond me...?? What have I missed?

With these new LCD RPTVs, not only are their pictures outstanding but it appears the big 3 are all going with this technology for the future.

"How anyone cannot recommend these new LCD RPTV's, is beyond me...?? What have I missed?"

My entire post?

Samsung produced LCD RPTV's back in 98 but realized that they were not the future of high performance HDTV. This led to their DLP models.

Mark

>>How anyone cannot recommend these new LCD RPTV's, is beyond me...?? What have I missed?

Just because something appears to work correctly does nto mean that it does. Some people don't care about that. Some do. This Forum strives for technical accuracy in terms of performance and LCD has got to be the worst thing I have ever seen. I am so sorry that the news industry always caves in on these quality issues and just starts overlooking them. The internal scalers are another example of something they simply stopped being honest about. Who wants to hear that they need to spend another $500-$1000 on an external scaler to get pictures that look like they did on their old TV. HD looks great but SD sucks. Believe me they have gone from trashy, to nearly tolerable. But nearly artifact free? Not yet anyway.

My question is how did Gary Merson get this right yet miss so many other things in his other reports? I just don't get it! It's like he has decided this technology is the devil and has pulled all the stops to convince with the truth of science to not buy. I wish he would do that with everything he reviews.

Like internal scalers...

Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD

A "crisp" picture is not neccesarily an accurate picture.

With all due respect to Richard,

I believe that LCD is an attractive alternative for certain applications. True, LCD is not the end all be all of technology, but that does not make it garbage either. The benefits of LCD are plentiful: lightweight, slim, bright, low maintenance, and no burn-in fear. So, if you are looking for a nice set to be in the family room with lots of ambient light, lots of 4:3 viewing, lots of video gaming, not taking up too much space, etc. LCD may be the perfect choice for you.

LCD downfalls are poor black level, screen door effect, dependence on internal scaler, etc. These are things that can be a deal breaker for the serious home theater perfectionist, but maybe negligible for most consumers.

It always comes down to personal preference. If you've seen the Grand Wegas and like them, then that is enough justification to buy one. I've seen the 42" GWIII and I think it would be a great set for anyone to just plug in and enjoy. I have recommended it for my parents whose current direct-view model is anything but optomized. They want a TV that they can set and forget. I myself have a CRT rear projection in my theater room and even though I know it will produce a picture that is better than the LCD, I would probably buy the GWIII for my family room if something were to happen to my directview set.

As is always the case, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If someone looks at all the available technologies and TVs out there and comes away liking the LCD- who am I to tell them they are wrong.

>>I believe that LCD is an attractive alternative for certain applications.

And you point all that out very well. I have recommended them myself for all the reasons you have stated.

It is still not an accurate display like so many others which is why we concentrate on accuracy here. For the money you can do far better if accuracy is your goal. If not the video world is your oyster and buy what you prefer.

Thanks guys for the very informative feed back. Some very good points. I will take a look at some of the alternate suggestions.

However, since I do already have a TV that adequately displays HDTV it is not an urgency. So, I may wait awhile to see how the various technologies progress. All at the moment have their disadvantages. It would be nice if there were a clear winner!

HiDefBob

Upon reading Bill T.'s report which included Gary Merson's analysis, I am confused where Plasma fits into the equation.

The report mentions CRT, LCD, DLP & LCoS ... does one of these cover Plasma? Which one?

Thanks for the education.

The reason you did not see Plasma mentioned is that the article/review was written strictly about Rear Projection TV's.

Mark

Plasma opens up another can of worms. Poor black levels (though they're improving), stuck pixels, high price, etc. Still not ready for prime time, in my opinion, unless you just want to impress people when it's turned off. But to each his/her own. Richard?

plasma suffers from visible pixel structure and needs a bright room. This is not for a darkened home theater.

Most susceptible to burn in. Not cost effective.

I have recomended them as well - application.

Bob, good luck with your shopping. I don't envy you - it took me about 4 months to shop and finally buy. I was very interested in the Sony Grand WEGA myself 20 months ago when I was jumping into a big screen TV head first. I drooled and dreamed over the grand Wega until my local retailer (Ovation of Indianapolis) finally got one on display. I was one of the first to see it in Indy on a retail shelf. My initial impression was disappointing at the then asking $9k with the stand. Don't get me wrong it was a good crisp picture with their HDTV hard drive feed. It didn't wow me but it was good. But when we switched to a DVD (Mulan, Braveheart) it wasn't what I expected. The picture was acceptionally bright - a good choice for a sports bar, or room with lots of ambient light, but it just didn't float my boat for $9k. Worse, when we switched to a regular broadcast (NBC news) it was down right terrible. The picture improved a little as we moved backwards from about 4 feet from the screen to about 8 feet, but only slightly.

I looked very hard at the other high end Sony RPTV, and the high end Mitsubitshi, and the Pioneer Elite RPTVs. In the end the Pioneer Elite PRO720HD was a clear winner. I understand that the newest 730 model line adds some substantial color improvements, and a slight price drop. Surely you could find one of the Pioneer Elite models for well under $5k these days.

The only draw back of the Pioneer Elite RPTV is it is huge. I don't mind because I've got a giant family room, but if you liked the WEGA because of its relatively smaller profile, then that is a concern.

Good luck,
Douglas

I don't know which technology is the best. Let your eyes pick the best for you, but read technical articles by HDTV experts, not just CR. I recall some years ago they picked a number of Hi Fi speakers and had some unkind things to say about Bose. Bose promptly sued them and it was brought out at trial that their panel of experts consisted of an elderly engineer with a substantial hearing loss and his teenage assistant. I also recall their drubbing of Subaro for years, even after models had changed considerably calling them primitive.

Thanks for the suggestion on the Pioneer Elite Pro720HD. That set would just be too big for my room, but I think I could accomodate the Pro510HD.

I actually would prefer this type of cabinet as opposed to either the Grand Wegas or the new KV34XBR910. I have a Martin Logan Cinema center channel speaker which sits nicely on my 36XBR400. These slim line sets would present a problem ... but not a killer factor.

However, the killer on the Pioneer ... no DVI input that I can see in the specs. I will not buy any new TV that does not have such an input. No way!

HiDefBob

Bob

The 720 is the old model. The 730 is the new one and it has 2 DVI/HDCP inputs. The 730i even includes 1 HDMI input.

From www.pioneerelectronics.com for the 730i:

Inputs/Outputs
DVI Digital Interface with HDCP 2 Sets, (480P/1080i)
Progressive Scan Inputs 3 : D-Sub 15 Inputs, 2 Component Inputs
S - Video Inputs 3 (1 front)
Antenna x 2
Composite Inputs 3 (1 front)
A/V Monitor Output 1
TV Tuner Output 1
Selectable Fixed/Variable Audio Output 1
Pioneer
HDMI Input 1

I don't know the availability in your area, but my Pioneer rep says they are available in Georgia.

If you have a problem with placing your center channel speaker (that Martin Logan piece is fairly large) consider doing what we did....build a table with only two legs. The side of the table with no legs should lay nicely on top of your TV, while the legs reach down to the floor. We used velcro to attach the table securely to the top edge of the TV, but the weight of the speaker would probably hold it in place fairly well. This design has served its purpose well for almost two years, and allowed me to use a relatively large center channel speaker without the need to place it on a wall shelf.

Mark

OK, here's my 2 cents. I got the Panasonic 45 inch rear projection LCD and it has a beautiful picture. I have never regretted my choice.

I have the Pioneer Elite 510HD, and if I had to buy a new HDTV today I'd get the 730HDi as it is very cheap relative to retail with the rebate. The 730HD has been out for a year and the new model is the 730HDi and that is the one I'd get, or because of space the 530HDi as the 630 line has been dropped. It does have DVI with HDCP and they are now ISF friendly. Take a look at the following site for the facts:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/product/detail/0,,2076_4133_29573411,00.html>

I believe that the 530HDi is about $3500 from an authorized dealer.

Hugh