Hi and thanks to those who assisted me with my questions. The more I think about isf calibration the more I think to myself how ridiculous it is that first of all no salesman told me I'd need to have this done once I got my t.v. home, second of all when I ask them about it they don't even know what it means, and third of all why should a person have to spend $2 - $3K on a new HD big screen and then another $300 just to make it look right? Give me a break! I can't understand how nobody else sees how ridiculous this is. That's like saying when you buy a new couch that it will harden up from being wiggled a little and so you need to spend another few hundred having someone come over and put new cushions in it so it's soft again like it was in the factory. I'm sorry, but I am ticked at the t.v. industry. No way should simply having a nice picture on a t.v. be this complicated. No way. HD is slow moving. There are all of these different cables you need just to make it nice. You buy the cables and find out later that you could have bought this other "better" cable for $50 dollars that would be twice as good. You need all kinds of equipment just to "clean" the signal up. Give me a stinking break! Then, everything is going digital and so we have to buy scalers just to clean up the cable companies' and mini dish companies' signals. The picture looks better if you use this cable rather than that one. Buy the time you get it all right you will have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of time that could have and should have been spent on more important things. No way in heck should making my t.v. look nice be this darn difficult. No way.
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While your frustration is understandable you have to realize that there are many products out there that have additional costs after the initial purchase price. A great example is the automobile. You can go to the showroom and buy a nice sports car take it home drive it every day and be perfectly happy with it much like an HDTV. However, if you want to get the maximum performance that your car is capable of you have to get the best tires, buy the best gas and make modification to the engine, power train and the exhaust. You were obviously happy with the TV when you bought it or you would not have spent the money. If you are happy with the picture then there is no need to make any additional purchases. On the other hand if you want to get more out of your TV then you will have to spend the money. This forum is a great resource to find out how (and why) to get the most from your purchase. Honestly, would you really be that upset with your TV if you had never heard of an ISF calibration or weren't recommended to use better cables? I am guessing that you bought the set at a Best Buy/Circuit City/Sears type of store. If this is the case you should not be surprised that you didn’t get any of this information when you purchased the set.
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You represent about 10% of the market that will even research ISF calibration and the rest of the stuff and then only about 2-4% of the market actually follows through with the service. The manufacturers have no reason what so ever to do anything about that 2-4% but they are a vocal minority that are receiving some recognition. For us the main concern is if we can correct the product by removing all the eye candy used to get you to buy it and that alone would please nearly all of us.
I am sorry that you are so frustrated by all this. Nobody ever did tell you these kinds of things for all these years/decades and you were quite satisfied with your pictures and many still are today. The truth in all mass market industries is that the goal is to satisfy the lowest common denominator. That group wants lower prices, bigger screens and smaller foot prints, not better imaging; That is naively taken for granted by the market. Bear in mind that for most folks the new TV is bigger, badder and better than what they had and regardless of performance they think it is great. Ignorance is bliss. It also leads to poor quality.
There is also the common dilema of going from a 27-35" analog low resolution TV to a much larger image that not only performs significantly better but also increases the visibiliy of noise due to the increase in picture size.
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Yeah, I see all of your point's I guess. I just wasn't aware of what it would take to get a picture quality similar to that of the store's when I bought it. I did little research on all of this stuff. I just knew I wanted a big screen in my first and new house so I bought the one consumer reports ranked high on their list. I'd like to think the DVE dvd would do me some good, but after reading some posts about spending hours on making adjustments using the DVE dvd and achieving minimal results I might just hold off on trying to improve the quality of my tv's picture. I just wish I understood a little more about calibration and how exactly it is done. The person I spoke with who does it in my area said his equipment to do the task costs about $10,000 and he said he'd calibrate all of my current connections that are being used. I don't know if that means hooking some electrical device up to the tv and zapping it or what that means, but it would be nice to have some idea of how it is done I guess.
Well, thanks again.
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You can spend 25 grand on a new car today-- turn the key and be happy, or, you can "tweak" it and accessorize it in any way that your heart and budget desires. Same for your new TV. You can de-crate it, plug it in, turn it on and with everything that comes in the box- you can watch TV. You can adjust the basic controls to "enhance" the picture just as everyone else has done for the last several decades.
The valid suggestions that this forum provided you with are yours to take or ignore. If you choose, you can have your new TV calibrated; you can keep it tweaked with the appropriate tools, i.e. VE etc; you can add "performance" enhancing options, i.e. scalers, better cables, etc. It’s all up to you. These extra steps to take are for you to decide. You can still enjoy your TV as it is.
The fanatical people on this forum are giving you their advice and are very passionate about this topic. And it’s all with the best intentions. If you bought a "Suburu" and went on a forum dedicated to cars and chatted up your new wheels to them- what do you think the outcome would be?- your head would be spinning just as fast.
Enjoy your TV! Don’t get lost in all of the peripheral nuances.
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Just one last thought, Justin if you are happy with your set the way it is just enjoy it, but it seemed from your original letter that you were not happy with the picture quality.
If you have a DVD player look at a few DVD's and use that as a measuring stick, If your cable or OTA signals look bad that is a source problem which you really can't do much about, if you are using satellite or HD content that should look much better.
At a minimum get one of the Calibration Disc and play with it you won't regret it.
Regardless of what you do or don't do just enjoy your new set in your new home.
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>>I don't know if that means hooking some electrical device up to the tv and zapping it or what that means, but it would be nice to have some idea of how it is done I guess.
Have you discussed any of this with the calibrator?
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<I just wasn't aware of what it would take to get a picture quality similar to that of the store's when I bought it.>
The object of calibration is not to achieve a pq "similar to that of the store's" (ugh!); the goal is an accurate representation of what was mastered. Sometimes this objective will be short circuited via poor practices by the network or local stations (bit shaving, and other abominations); sometimes the source material is crap. The downside of HD is that imperfections are harder to hide or ignore; the upside is that, when everything aligns from a good source to an accurate display, the result can be sublime.
regards, billb....
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I AGREE WITH LARRY. I HAVE 2 HD SETS AND I SET THEM UP ACCORDING TO MY PREFERENCES AND I AM VERY HAPPY WITH MY PICTURE. I THINK THIS 6 HOUR CALIBRATION IS BUNK.
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"I AGREE WITH LARRY. I HAVE 2 HD SETS AND I SET THEM UP ACCORDING TO MY PREFERENCES AND I AM VERY HAPPY WITH MY PICTURE. I THINK THIS 6 HOUR CALIBRATION IS BUNK."
That is just like someone telling me I should buy the tires for my Lexus at Pep Boys. Since you have never had the calibration you cannot say it is no good. You are obviously happy with mediocrity. That's fine but don't buy an HDTV and try to get the best in PQ and then say that getting the TV to perform at it's finest is bunk. Next time please use your own name and don't scream with all capitals.
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You are absolutely entitled to watch your TVs the way you prefer, and no one here minds if you never have them calibrated . And please don't shout; it makes us old guys nervous.
regards, billb....
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First in response to Hugh, the tires that you would buy at Pep Boys may very well be the same damn tires from another vendor.
Changing tires is just one of many things Pep Boys offers. As for "mediocrity", the Lexus brand is really just a TOYota with a few more decorations. I know there are some who are excited over "Lexus" but personally "Toyotas" don't do much for me. As far as the calibration issue, it is indeed very subjective. Everyone see the world AND hears the world differently. The concept of "calibrating" every TV to a single "standard" means that everyone should be happy with settings that somebody else thinks (subjectively) is best. The idea itself is worthwhile since it seeks quality, but just keep in mind that everyone may not find the same settings the "best". It is interesting that the audiophile community doesn't have (as far as I know) a similiar thing where all home systems need to conform to certain wattages, frequencies and pitches
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<The concept of "calibrating" every TV to a single "standard" means that everyone should be happy with settings that somebody else thinks (subjectively) is best.>
Mike -
Actually, there is a very similar calibration procedure for audio, which involves playing a series of "pink noise" reference signals through the source input, analyzing the output of the speakers, and adjusting the system based on measured deviation from the reference. Believe it or not, video, audio, and other electronic systems are engineered to measurable standards. Many variations of personal preference fall within the bounds of proper calibration. However, assembly tolerances found in mass produced electronics, parameter drift from initial component burn-in, and vast differences in the environments where that equipment is used, mean that in situ calibration is the most desirable starting point for optimum performance. Factor in the display manufacturers' initial settings, which are designed to get the consumers' attention in a bright, crowded showroom, and the set you unpack at your home is a poor imitation of what it will be when it is calibrated following the first few weeks of operation. Even worse, if you buy into these initial settings, because you like them or become accustomed to them, there is a real possibility that your display will be damaged before you realize it is happening.
As I said in a previous post, feel free to do what you want with your own display; when you argue against calibration in this forum, those of us who have differing opinions and experience can be expected to push back.
regards, billb
Bill Broach
Circuit Design Manager
Portable Power Systems
National Semiconductor
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<The concept of "calibrating" every TV to a single "standard" means that everyone should be happy with settings that somebody else thinks (subjectively) is best.>
Mike, please read the ISF calibration thread. It has nothing to do with what you or I prefer and everything to do with everybody seeing the same image that was mastered.
Audio is no different.
Most folks want to believe this is all bunk because it makes life easier and that concept will be promoted by retailers as well. If you are not interested then fine but don't admonish the rest who pursue it.
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In discussing calibration and related topics having to do with tweaking an HDTV, it may be helpful to keep in mind that not all people are videophiles. The latter are folks who place their couch or lazyboy at a precise distance from the screen where, unfortunately, they can behold both the beauty of HD transmissions and the "artifacts" as well.
The rest of us have not rearranged the living room. We bought the beautiful new bigger screen because we wanted to have the best. From 12 feet or so from the screen, HD simply looks gorgeous as do ordinary TV transmissions, and artifacts are out of sight and out of mind.
It's the videophiles who buy the more expensive Pioneer elites and other premium brands and they want nothing less than perfection. More power to them.
Jack
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. And please don't shout; it makes us old guys nervous.