Richard...no one is saying that dvi is a "cure all"...we're merely stating that it is an improvement over component...if you don't agree with this well, then I guess I would say that you are intitled to your opinion...I have read on many web sites about how and why dvi is an improvement...(even on CRT based digital tv's)...In my case, I don't care why it creates a better picture, I just can see that it does and I appreciate it. I would think that you would acknowledge and recommend dvi or HDMI to any new consumer...I mean lets face it...component is out, and dvi/hdmi is in...this much I know.
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>>Richard...no one is saying that dvi is a "cure all"
Yes you are!
>>...we're merely stating that it is an improvement over component...
That is an inaccurate statement. Those with a native 480P display would likely not see a difference. You have wasted their money!
>>if you don't agree with this well, then I guess I would say that you are intitled to your opinion...
This forum does not deal in opinion. It is a library of accurate information. Most here find that refreshing.
>>I have read on many web sites about how and why dvi is an improvement...(even on CRT based digital tv's)...
The link you have been posting is riddled with inaccurate information that you continue to repeat on this forum. I am not surprised that you have been fed inaccurate information. This is why the forum is here.
>>In my case, I don't care why it creates a better picture,
To give fellow users advice on this forum your concern that you are providing accurate information is critical to your posting priveledges.
>>I just can see (w)hat it does and I appreciate it.
And in your ignorance of WHY it looks better you are spreading false information. I am delighted that you can see a difference yet I am not surprised due to the display you have.
>>I would think that you would acknowledge and recommend dvi or HDMI to any new consumer.
I have, many times. I have not, many times.
In your case YOU have no choice due to the display you have. It is native 1080I only and will trash any non 1080I or 540P scan rate and the use of picture formatting will also induce artifacts so native format and native aspect ratio. What the player has done for your DVD collection an external scaler would do for all other NTSC sources and any DVD player with decent analog performance. Your experience is all about the native scan rate of your display and NOT DVI or analog. That is CRITICAL to know if you are going to run around trying to help your fellow users get artifact free imaging with out wasting money or time trying to figure it out. Most sales people are still ramming 480P DVD players down the consumers throat without realising they are setting them up for poor imaging and that means YOU because of the display YOU have. If you had bought a Mits, Panasonic or Sony you would by the same token be telling everyone how DVI is a waste of money because you could NOT see a difference and 480I sucks, again providing misinformation. The why is important and is what this forum is about.
It's not complicated. Native scan rate means the signal does not require any conversion or scaling. This is not to be confused with the listing of scan rates that you can display; They will be converted by the scaler inside the display. If you have a digital display then you have only one scan rate. If you have a CRT display you will have only one or two scan rates. CRT front projectors can have numerous native scan rates.
DVI or analog component
480I = Old analog displays, any display that does not have a native 480P scan rate and external scalers
480P = any display that has a native 480P scan rate
540P = any display that has native 1080I scan rate. This preferred over 1080I due to interlace artifacts.
720P = any display that has a native 720P scan rate
1080I = use 540P when ever possible
There are always rare exceptions to the above. That is what a calibrator is for.
>>..I mean lets face it...component is out, and dvi/hdmi is in...this much I know.
Actually, that is DVI/HDCP. HDMI just came along for the ride.
It is not due to superiority and all about copy protection. There are also some beneficial features like HDMI which was developed to directly compete with 1394 HAVI.
Please don't take any of this personal. If you still do not understand why DVI is working for you please let me know or maybe another member can say the same thing a different way.
Thanks for joining us and I personally look forward to more of your posts!
Richard F. Fisher
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
Factory Authorized Service
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL
Lumagen Scaling and Bravo D1 Dealer
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Richard...that sounds real good, and you probably look good saying it...BUT, that still doesn't explain why the picture looks better through the dvi imput verses the component input...according to you, they should both be the same...right?
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Okay, I am really confused now. Will someone please tell me (or post a link) what the difference is between digital and analog when it comes to rear crts as opposed to plasmas, lcds, and dlps. I have a Toshiba 57h82 but it does not have a dvi input, only 2 component inputs. Is my television an analog set? If so, why is it called digital by all the retailers who sell it? I know there is a digital comb filter inisde of it. Is analog different when it applies to rear crts? Will a DVI input make any difference on my television? Are all crt based rear projectors analog? Is a HDTV signal converted to analog when it passes through a component cable. I have heard bits and pieces of these questions asked and explained throughout this forum, but somehow it does not add up to any logical conclusion on my part. I am totally confused about the whole analog-digital definitions. Pardon my obvious stupidity, but can someone PLEASE clear this up for me! HELP!
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robby...your tv like mine is dvi upgradable, which means you can have it upgraded to dvi...(which is what I did to mine)...at any rate, I hope someone answers your other questions cause I'd like to hear the answers myself...
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>>BUT, that still doesn't explain why the picture looks better through the dvi imput verses the component input...according to you, they should both be the same...right?
What scan rate are you feeding it? That is where you will find your answer. Feed your display a DVI 480P or 720P and you will see what I mean.
Yes, If you feed your TV 1080I DVI or 1080I analog you will get the same result. It is the scan rate, not the technology. It is the conversion to 1080I in your TV that degrades the image. If you feed it 1080I you bypass that process and that is why the picture looks better.
>>Is my television an analog set? If so, why is it called digital by all the retailers who sell it?
It is analog. Digital is a very abused marketing term use to sell products and people buy them because anything digital is supposed to be better hence the abusive use of the term. The important piece of information is the scan rate not the technology.
Scan rate is like a set of tires for your car. If you put the right ones on the car performs at it’s best. Make them too small and the bottom of the car will hit things. Make them too large and the tires will rub the inside of the wheel well. All the sizes allow the car to still function. Only one size performs best.
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CRTs are analog, DLP/LCD is digital. Not sure about plasma.
DVI and HDMI are digital interfaces.
Component video is analog.
If you have a DLP display with component connections to a DVD player, the digital signal from the DVD is converted to analog, sent to the TV where it converts it back to digital for display. Analog-digital conversion (and vice versa) is never a good thing for a signal and should be avoided if possible.
If you use the DVI/HDMI connection the signal stays digital all the way to the TV - no conversion.
Scan rate is a whole other piece of the puzzle. Displays work best when fed their native rate. For most DLPs and LCDs that means 720p. Anything else has to be scaled up or down to match that. For CRTs it's a little more complicated and I don't fully understand all the nuances.
There are 3 scan rates to consider
original source
DVD - 480i/p, HDTV - 720p, 1080i, SDTV - 480i/p
display input
any of the above - determined by the DVD/STB (or external scaler). If output of the DVD/STB is different from the original source then the DVD or STB is scaling the image. e.g. my Samsung takes a 720p signal from ABC and converts it to 1080i before sending it to the display.
display output
DLP/LCD/plasma - 480p, 720p, 1080p (coming)
CRT - 480i/p, 1080i, (540p??)
If the display input doesn't match the display's native scan rate it will be converted up or down to match. e.g. feeding a 720p DLP display a 1080i signal will cause the display to do the conversion.
The scan rate conversion can be done at any point (in the DVD/STB, the display or by an external scaler). Choosing the right one to do the scaling is the trick. Built-in display scalers are typically not the highest quality. Dedicated external scalers should be the best but are also the most expensive. DVD/STB scalers are probably in between with varying degrees of quality.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks Richard and Allen and Chuckenn, that does clear it up a great deal for me. As some of you know, I work at BB part time and I hear my fellow employees tell customers that our rear projectors and even direct view hdtvs are fully digital. After getting "educated" on this forum, I have told them this misnomer and they all look at me with a strange face, however they still continue to tell the consumer the wrong info. Chuckenn (or anyone else) what would I have to do to upgrade my tv to dvi? Is it even worth it?
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I forgot to add something to my last post. Since my tv is analog, what does it mean to have a digital comb filter inside and how does it relate to the input/output. thanks!
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According to a link from google it's for composite video only and it separates the composite signal into Luminance (Y) and chrominance (C) similar to S-video (Y/C).
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I think it’s great that you’re pursuing pertinent information that will benefit you and your customers. Now only if this "quest for the right information" becomes contagious at BB…
I certainly am not going to claim any "electronic" superiority to these fellow posters. What I did, out of my own curiosity, was google your query. I came up with tons of sites. You might want to do the same…
A digital filter is just a filter that operates on digital signals, such as sound represented inside a computer. It is a computation which takes one sequence of numbers (the input signal) and produces a new sequence of numbers (the filtered output signal). The filters are not digital only because they operate on signals that are not digital. It is important to realize that a digital filter can do anything that a real-world filter can do. That is, all the filters alluded to above can be simulated to an arbitrary degree of precision digitally. Thus, a digital filter is only a formula for going from one digital signal to another. It may exist as an equation on paper, as a small loop in a computer subroutine, or as a handful of integrated circuit chips properly interconnected.
Digital Comb Filter
Digital Filtering of Composite video into SVHS (Y/C) video
Using adaptive multi-dimensional signal processing, the Digital Comb Filter filters the selected composite video (CVBS1 or 2) into digital luminance (Y) and chrominance (C) signals, providing cleaner, crisper digital video.
The Digital Comb Filter filters out unwanted artifacts
The Digital Comb Filter greatly reduces the "hanging dots" and "chroma crawl" effects common to composite video and enhances it to Y/C (S-Video) quality performance levels.
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robby...Call Toshiba and tell them the model of your tv...57H82 and tell them you want to upgrade your TV with DVI and they will instruct you as to which authorized dealer to bring it to...You said that you work at BB?...Heck, "they" ought to be able to tell you there!...you'll have to live without your tv for a couple of weeks...since Richard said both the component inputs and dvi inputs are the same (if your feeding it 1080i), then I don't see the point...All I know is, I have hooked up my Pioneer DV-59AVi both ways, and it has a much cleaner picture through the dvi connection...I do have good gold component cables, but the picture still looks better through dvi...Of course there is the possibility that my inputs are screwed up on my tv...(Toshibas are notorious for "shaky" component inputs.
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With DVI I'm getting a MUCH brighter picture on the analog cable (Comcast) channels, and possibly slightly brighter colors. However, I am getting a yellowish tint (noticeable frequently on faces). Yes, I've been calibrated. By the way, the comparisons made were between DVI and S-Video.
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>>With DVI I'm getting a MUCH brighter picture on the analog cable (Comcast) channels, and possibly slightly brighter colors. However, I am getting a yellowish tint (noticeable frequently on faces). Yes, I've been calibrated.
While the display may have been calibrated that does not infer that you are getting the correct response. The source you are feeding it must calibrated as well. I have a Moto 5100 cable STB and the color decoder is a little funky but nothing awful. What box are you running?
>>By the way, the comparisons made were between DVI and S-Video.
Meaningless. The difference between those connections is like a VCR versus a DVD player. Can you make a comparison between the component and the DVI using the same scan rate?
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>>With DVI I'm getting a MUCH brighter picture on the analog cable (Comcast) channels, and possibly slightly brighter colors. However, I am getting a yellowish tint (noticeable frequently on faces). Yes, I've been calibrated.
>>>>While the display may have been calibrated that does not infer that you are getting the correct response. The source you are feeding it must calibrated as well. I have a Moto 5100 cable STB and the color decoder is a little funky but nothing awful. What box are you running?
SA3250-HD
>>By the way, the comparisons made were between DVI and S-Video.
>>>>Meaningless. The difference between those connections is like a VCR versus a DVD player. Can you make a comparison between the component and the DVI using the same scan rate?
Possibly. I'm assuming the SA box is upconverting 480i to 480p through both component and DVI?
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I would suspect that whatever scan rate you set the box for will be the same for both connections. Does the display tell you what the input scan rate is? 480I, 480P, 1080I, etc.?
If your TV is CRT it supports native 480P and 1080I/540P. If it is the Wega LCD then 720P is the native scan rate.
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Page 9 of the owners manual for the Pioneer DV-59AVi:
"Super Fine Focus digital filter
This improves the quality of the video output by reducing video noise and increasing the horizontal resolution to 540 lines."
However, it never mentions if this is only on the HDMI/DVI output, or on the component output also.
Near as I can tell from reading the whole 100 page manual, only the digital output gets the scaling. And, it can scale to any of the usual rates: 480p (which according the note on page 9 has already been scaled to 540p), 720p, and 1080i. I assume chuckken has his set to 1080i. This makes me wonder if the chuckken is comparing:
1) A 480p analog component output to the TV, then converted to digital, scaled to 1080i by the TV, then converted back to analog by the TV's D/A convertor, then to the CRTs.
to
2) A 1080i DVI output direct to the TV's D/A convertor, then to the CRTs.
If that's the case, then I would certainly expect the DVI connection to look MUCH better in this particular setup.
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Guys...to tell you the truth, I didn't even know I could set the scan rate...(just a bodyman)...Ill look into it...I just plugged in hooked up the cables, set the one setting to "professional"...and vvvuala!...Richard, hopefully you can help me dial this dvd player in to my new set when it gets here.
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heres some more info on the unit...(I don't even know what some of this means...)
Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi, a new industry reference DVD player that offers both a high definition multimedia interface (HDMI) and i.LINK connectors for the best in both digital audio and digital video connectivity. Pioneer also has added superior DVD video playback capabilities giving this DVD player the ability to scale a typical DVD video signal to HD quality as well as playback of both DVD-Audio discs and Super Audio CDs. Pioneer Elite DV59i
Super-Fine Focus Filter with 4:4:4 video up-sampling.
Fourteen adjustable video parameters including: Progressive Motion, PureCinema (on, off, auto), YNR, CNR, Sharpness High, Sharpness Mid, Detail, White Level, Black Level, Gamma, Black Setup, Hue, Chroma Level and Chroma Delay. Two new adjustable video parameters for HDMI: HDMI color and HDMI detail. Once the desired adjustments have been made, they can be saved in one of three available user memory settings.
Three factory video settings (CRT/PDP/Professional).
Trick play processor (smooth scan). Pioneer Elite DV-59
Upgraded graphic user interface for easy set-up navigation
Pioneer Elite DV59AVi
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I would suspect that whatever scan rate you set the box for will be the same for both connections. Does the display tell you what the input scan rate is? 480I, 480P, 1080I, etc.?
If your TV is CRT it supports native 480P and 1080I/540P. If it is the Wega LCD then 720P is the native scan rate.
With DVI, the scan rat is set automatically. With component, I can set the scan rate. What is displayed on the TV is "normal 480i", "normal 1080i", "normal 720p", etc.
Its a RPTV - Sony KP-57WV700
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Richard...this dvd player will be used to hook up to the new 65HX93 when it gets here, so I'll wait till this combo is matched up and play with it some more...My 57 inch didn't have a way of showing the scan rate...maybe this new set will?...at any rate, you'll get a chance to help me dial it in after I break in the new box...thanks for the info so far.
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Coooooooooool...so you'll be familier with the Tosh HX series before you do mine...that's better yet!...I think Tuesday is the happy day when the trucking co. liftgate drops in my driveway! BTW, these new HX series have added selectable 540P (which I'd assume would give the set more flexibility for users with non-dvi equipped dvd players?)...[not a concern in my case].
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I have a Toshiba 32" HDTV that supports 720p, Toshiba 32HF73. Right now my DVD players are the Samsung 931 (bought it to test before my Bravo gets here and a panasonic DVD-F65K. I am running a DVI on the Samsung and component on the Panasonic. Ok well after being at work today and talking to Richard. He explained to me that in my situation the best setup would be to run 480i from the DVD player. I was completely confused after that. But after thinking about it is maade more sense to me why. Basically if your set is not natice to a display you are trying to push ... don't use it due to the fact that it adds more conversions in the DVD player. So I test everything when I get home. I used 3 discs (Mosters Inc, Bugs Life and Jason Vs. Freddy). I test the Samsung at 480p, 720p and 1080i. The 480 was the worst by far. The other 2 I could not really tell the difference. Then I bring it over to the Panasonic and tested 480p against 480i. First I tried the progressive. This already blew away the signal produced by the Samsung. The Samsung made things vary grainy on the Jason vs. Freddy movie. Was this due to the fact that is was shot on film and the DVI made it too crisp? Then I tried the normal 480i and it seriously looked the best...best colors, very nice and smooth picture. Now dont forget this is an analog due due to it being CRT.
Now Richard also mentioned if I get the Bravo D1 to change the resolution in the firmware to 540p to nativly suppoert my TV res. Since this keeps everything native will this be my best picture option? Your forums have been a GREAT HELP. They took a few hours to grasp for me but at least they are the truth. I asked the guy at Best Buy today if with my setup the Samsung would make a difference at all. He said "It will make the world of difference." Pretty sad.
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Component looks better on my XBR800 Sony direct view. Better color, less noise and cleaner picture..using DVI gets me moving verticle interference problems. This has been discussed before.
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