Ok...I'm going to stick my neck out here in the hopes of shedding some clear light on this dvd player upscaling scenerio. So here goes...This is for the benefit of those with 1080i displays...As I have stated earlier, I have no knowledge of what to expect on a non-1080i native scan rate monitor. That said, I will say this much...The new upscalable players, "will" produce a HD like picure on a 1080i monitor. Ok, now, what to expect?...I have done a lot of testing and playing around with my Pioneer and here it is...(As Richard has pointed out a number of times), "alot" has to do with the way a movie was made and mastered. "That" being said, Here are my findings...New releases: Almost all of the newer released movies, ie, "The Haunted Mansion", "Master and Commander", "Kill Bill", "The Matrix Reloaded", (etc)...They all appear "as" Superbit quality and with some video adjustment (within the player), you can achieve an incredibly "cinematic like" well detailed HD like picture. I have been down to "Hi Fi Buys"...(Tweeters)...and have not seen this quality on any display using a progressively scanned picture. I am not proposing that progressive is bad or incapable of producing such a picture, I am merely posting what I have seen to be true with my set up...Ok, now... Older releases: These are a crap shoot. On these I feel the safest bet would be superbit, (if possible)...if not, you cannot expect these movies to appear as "newer releases" and you may even want to switch over to component progressive scan for a more enjoyable picture...There you have it, and I hope this was helpful...

Chuckken,

Glad to hear you're getting good results from an upscaleable player. I've been considering one so I've been reading up on them. I have a theory that I'd like to float here for comment.

If I'm not mistaken, you have a Tosh RPTV that has 540p and 1080i native. When you fed it 480p progressive, it had to be upscaled by the tv to 540p. Now you're feeding it a native 1080i signal, and the tv doesn't do anything to it.

I have a Mits RPTV that has 480p and 1080i native. I'm currently feeding it a progressive scan 480p signal, and with a good quality DVD I already see near HD quality. (Depends greatly on the source.)

I'm wondering if I'll see less of an improvement than you did if I change to a 1080i signal, since I'm already feeding a native scan rate. Any thoughts?

Ken

Interesting theories and I'm so glad that you have had such a great experience Chukken!

My display is native 720p (Sony Grand Wega), similar to DLPs. I'd be interested in knowing if others have had as dramatic an improvement of picture with a DVD DVI player upscaled to 720p. I haven't had the same experience as Chukken so I'm just curious.

Ken...I was under the impression that my old Toshiba dvd player was 540p output...which would make it a fair comparison to 1080i. Maybe I'm wrong and it was 540 lines of resolution I am remembering? (I don't know how much difference 480p compared to 540p would be...At any rate, I'm thinking the only way to know for sure would be to hook one up to your display and compare...Keep in mind the difference (at least in my situation) was more than a difference in sharpness or clarity...It's hard to put in words...It's as if in progressive mode the dvds look more comercial...you know, like made for tv. and the 1080i upscaled version looks incredibly cinematic...(almost 3d looking)...with excellent black levels and color saturation. The best way for me to descibe the difference would be to say that my wife, (who knows nothing at all about any of this) "instantly" noticed a theater-like quality. Also we have a Panny RPTV which is 480p and the same Toshiba dvd player could never produce an image of this magnitude on it...I hope that helped...

Chucken has a Toshiba cinema series CRT RPTV. This can never effectively compare to a LCD or DLP. I don't believe LCD/DLP owners can expect the same results on DVD as a good CRT based RPTV. CRT will always look more like 35mm film "cinamatic" due to their design and LCD/DLP will look better on video. But unfortunatly, we would be comparing apples to oranges. Rob I personally think you would be better off with a real good progressive scan player.

Chuckken,

I thought DVD = 480i, Progressive DVD = 480p, but I could be wrong. I guess it would make sense for Tosh to make a 540p player, since that's one of their RPTV native scan rates.

If what you're saying is true, that would make the 1080i upconverters look even more attractive.

The only other thing is that you're using the Pioneer Elite, which is probably a killer player with a killer chipset. The Sammy and Tosh units at 200 to 300 have been getting crappy reviews, and the new Zenith in that same price range is, well, too new to tell.

Hmmm...HD DVD is coming out when?

Ken

I have a dlp/Bravo setup (720P). Which by the way Vinc. has now properly repaired, and works well. On INHD last night the movie Empire Records was on, which I have because my kids love it. The quality from my Bravo is indistinguishable from the picture quality that INHD was presenting.

Don't most (or all) of the the 1080i upscalable DVD players require a DVI input on your monitor?

Will future HD DVD players also require DVI?

My current two year old Mits Platinum HDTV does not have DVI. It has 1394 and component inputs.

I know there have been many protracted discussions on 1394 and DVI but until now I saw no reason to go one way or the other. I'm not too concerned about not being able to utilize upscalable DVD players but I am very concerned whether or not I will be able to take advantage of HD DVD players.

I might have a pretty hard time convincing my wife that a $3000 two year old TV is obsolete and needs replaced.

Chuck_G yes to your 1st question. all upgragable dvd players are either dvi or hdmi and would require dvi/hdmi input on your tv.

2) I believe all future HD dvd players will be copyright protected and need to be dvi or hdmi.

3) You could be like me and sell your Mits while it's still worth alot instead of waiting till everyone knows about dvi and buy a dvi or hdmi equipped display now.

4) I highly doubt HD dvd will be anything the masses will be interested in until 2008 or later and the movie industry is releasing HD dvds----unfortunately your mits at that time won't be worth beans. (just a thought).

Ken...I just wanted to say one final thing here in regards to upscaled quality verses regular progressive scan. Now I don't know how much of this is due to my tv...or how much is due to the Pioneer DVD player but, before my family could always tell when the tv was showing a dvd or HD movies on HBO channel 88 (509) but now they click the stop button on the dvd player at dinner time and ask me why the dvd is not stopping when in fact they're watching a HD movie on HD Directv. Most of the time you really can't tell.

>>I have a Mits RPTV that has 480p and 1080i native. I'm currently feeding it a progressive scan 480p signal, and with a good quality DVD I already see near HD quality. (Depends greatly on the source.)

You are matching the native scan rate. Moving to 1080I or 540P will not change things much at all.

>>I'm wondering if I'll see less of an improvement than you did if I change to a 1080i signal, since I'm already feeding a native scan rate. Any thoughts?

You are correct!

>>Ken...I was under the impression that my old Toshiba dvd player was 540p output...

480I or 480P only. Anything higher from a DVD player is DVI/HDCP only.

>>Rob I personally think you would be better off with a real good progressive scan player.

That would be worse. To take advantage of 480P DVD players you need a native 480P scan rate. If you do not have that the best is typically 480I in to the display.

Rob, how old is that Grand Wega? If it is not DVI/HDCP then you will not see the native scan rate from the player because without HDCP it automatically reverts to 480P.

>>The only other thing is that you're using the Pioneer Elite, which is probably a killer player with a killer chipset.

The D/A convertors play no role in his application or any DVI application. Only deinterlacing and scaling. That might be the killer chip set you are referring to but in most cases that plays a smaller roll than the D/A conversion.


>>2) I believe all future HD dvd players will be copyright protected and need to be dvi or hdmi.

Absolutely!



Richard F. Fisher
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - help@mastertechtv.com
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Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL
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Richard...how is the scan rate related to the lines of resolution?...cause my old Toshiba dvd player is 540 lines of resolution. (remember, I'm an ignorant average joe).

>>cause my old Toshiba dvd player is 540 lines of resolution.

The only number I can think of that would make sense is 525 which is really 480 scan lines of image content. The other 45 lines are used to form the vertical sync pulse and carry other bits of data such a closed caption.

Here's another dvd player coming out this month. After looking at the price tag, all of a sudden the $950.00 I spent on my Pioneer doesn't seem so bad...Rob...I think this player set to 720P might do the job for you!...

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=12933171

Nice player Chuckken, but $4000? Holy cow!

Richard, tell me if I'm all wet here, but I think I was refering to the deinterlacing chipset, which must be pretty good in Chuckken's Pioneer. I hear a lot of people talking up the Faroudja chips, which the new Zenith upconvert has. That's the deinterlacing chip, right?

Thanks!

Ken

Ken...yeah, it is expensive...after reading the specs it seems like a $4000.00 version of the Pioneer...(although it does have a couple of extra bells and whistles) it's no wonder the Pioneer is on backorder at most etailers.

Here is a site that has the most complete rundown on the Pioneer unit...They are too expensive to buy from, but they cover the specs real well...
http://www.zonefreedvd.com/codefreedvd/dv59avi.html

Richard, my Grand Wega is only a few months old. It does have DVI/HDCP and the Toshiba does tell me that its at 720p. I should add is that I've looked closer at some scenes, there is a decent though subtle improvement in picture quality. The colors are crisper and some of the details are clearer -- though I don't notice a significant increase in detail. But it is much closer to 480p than it is to HDTV quality.

One question for you Richard, are you sure that the Grand Wega has a native scan rate of 720p. I've seen some reviews to indicate that the native scane rate is not quite 720p.

Keith, interesting comment on the Bravo, what kind of display do you have?

Ken, I would say that the reviews of seen of the Sammy and Bravo are mixed -- largely because of some incompatibility problems. When those problems are overcome, the reviews seem to be pretty good (see CNET, for example). Have you seen reviews of the Toshiba? Where? I haven't...

Chukken, $4k for a DVD player, wow! Gotta love your enthusiasm!

Rob

I have a Samsung HLN4365W Dlp, and the Bravo D1 with Vinc's latest build. I use Dvi output set at 720P. My cable box is a Pioneer 3510 using component output set to 720p. TWC has not activated the dvi port on the 3510 as yet. I also have a Sony progressive ( can't remember the number) set to 480p.

Rob,

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to bash Tosh or Sammy or anybody else. I'm just saying that the upconverts available from both are getting really bad reviews over at AVS Forum. I have no personal experience with either one. If you look you'll find threads over there on both players. The only other player in that price range (that I know of) is the new Zenith, which is a clone of an LG player released in Canada recently.

The Zenith will interest some because it is (for now at least) putting out 1080i over component, as well as over DVI. I'm more interested in the DVI because I have that option into my set, and I'm afraid that the 1080i component will disappear via vaporware, or future disc format changes. It even says in the Zenith manual that some copy protected discs might only display at 480p over component, even when set to 1080i. Anyway, it's getting great reviews on the component side, but supposedly has white crush through DVI. I'm waiting to hear some more reports.

Perhaps I'll buy a lottery ticket tonight, win, and go buy that $4k unit. And perhaps the Cubs will win the World Series this year, as long as I'm wishing...

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Ken

if you win the lottery, will any of this matter...no way........you will buy the best and most expensive, until the next best and most expensive comes along.....

ps. can i please have a million dollars, please, please?

Ken,

Thanks for the advice on that site! I checked the user comments and it does seem that others have had the same experience with the Sony Grand Wega that I have had. It does not appear to be a 720p native scan tv (its a bit different) and therefore there seems little benefit from an upscale DVD DVI player. So, I'm sticking with my older player which does just fine.

Rob,

Wish I was there...

Yes, wish you were there as well Richard. There is certainly an owners' perception that the Sony Grand Wega is not a native 720p. And it is consistent with my experience with the product though I am not an expert.

But I think I will take the money I saved on the DVD player and get callibrated! So, this should answer many questions!