Hello. This is Big Red's Stable, a board that can be used for both as a chat board and a guestbook. Use it either way but I'd appreciate it if you would leave a message here so people can get together and talk about horses, horseracing, or whatever. Thank-you :-)
Rules
1. RESPECT EVERYONE! Meaning to all readers, respect the posts you read on this board; and to all the posters, respect all the readers on this board.
2. No Debates/Arguments! I'm sick and tired of arguements on this board! If you want to know how to treat a person on this board, see rule #1.
3. NO X rated stuff on this board!
4. Watch your language!
5. If you wish to change your name/handle, PLEASE let us on the board know what the new handle is. That way we can identify you when you post.
6. If someone posts a message you think is inappropriate, then please email me and I'll look into it. But don't post back at them, that starts fights on this board in the first place.
If you can agree to these rules, then you are more than welcome to post on this board. Welcome :-)
Does anyone have Gallop Racer 2003?
by Secretariat/Cigar/WarAdmiral
I have Gallop Racer 2003, and i strongly recommend it for racing fans, although it does not have actual racehorses, that have raced or do race, it is still a life like game for horse racing fans.Gallop Racer is for the Playstation 2. I will also recommend G1 Jockey, but i like Gallop Racer better.
I don't have a Playstation or anyting like that, the controlls confuse me too much with all the buttons. But what I do have is Farnam's Horse Racing DVD you can play on your PC which is really nice. On there you can create your own barn on the computer and you can race your own horses and even be your own jockey in the race.
I have a cousin who has Playstation or something like it, the games have too much stuff a player can do with the controller. I'm so busy trying to figure out what to do with the controller than I can't enjoy the game. Then again everyone must undertand that I'm from the Atari 1980's generation too.
I have the Farnam Horse Racing DVD plus I have the 3-Day Eventing which is Cross Country, Show Jumping, and Dressage.
The Horse Racing DVD lets you create your own farm on your PC and you have roughly $20,000 or so to start your farm off with. You can pick a horse to race and/or you can bet in races as well and build yoru moeny or loose some. Just remember though that if you choose to use a jockey you have to pay the jockey, so I normally ride my horses in a race. Also once you've earned enough money to have another horse (male and female that is) you can breed them and make your stable grow. That's also fun too.
In the 3-Day Eventing, you get to be a worker in the barn, you can brush the horses, water and feed them, and groom their stable as well as riding them. They're both fun games that you can find at the website at the top of this message.
I have ways of being able to ID you, even if you use a different handle, so whatever game you're trying to play on this board CUT IT OUT!
I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you first came on here as the handle War Admiral because you were new here, but now that you're starting this crap again of "what horse is the greatest", using the handle Cigar, well you should know by now all it'll do is start trouble! You'd better find some other more civil discussion on the board or I WILL take action AND DON'T THINK I WON'T!
For the regulars on this board, my appologies for the posts. I can only hope that y'all will continue to come to the board, and thankyou to those that do choose to continue coming, it means a lot to me.
When i find a new favorite racehorse i like to hear other peoples opinions aboutthat racehorse, and i am in no way not giving credit to probably the greatest horse ever {Man O' War} i just like other horses. I am still very very sorry Beth, for now on ill be more careful about what i say about diffrent racehorses and comparisons between them.
You want to change your favorites that's your choice, but don't start bickering/argueing on this board. I've worked hard to make this board a civil place where people can type their opinions and whether the reader agrees or not, the post is respected. I will not allow argueing on this board. It gets too much out of hand on here.
You can talk about horse racing in general or something in reference to it if you wish, but I told you no argueing, that includes no small time bickering as well.
I have every intention to keep this peace on this board.
Today is the 15th aniversary of our Big Red horses death, Secretariat shall rest in peace with the racing gods, and he deserves a moment of silence in his great honor. Thank you.
Use which ever one you wish, all I ask please is that you stick to that one, and if you ever do choose to change just let us please know. That's all I ask.
The Six Target Ancestors that made Man O War a great stallion.
Throughout Man O Wars sire career the pedigrees of the mares bred to him were saturated with the blood of these six target ancestors.
Roi Herode (The most often appearance.)
Star Shoot* ( Second Most and the one giving Man his Highest Stakes Winner %)
Sundridge
Orme
Hamburg
Friar Rock( Half Brother to Fair Play- Man`s Sire)
More than 70% of the foals sired by Man O War carry the blood of at least one of these TARGET ancestors.
William Allison chose these Ancestors for Man O War Breeding. William Allison by choosing “In close female ancestor breeding” built the Castelton Dynasty in England.
The Tattersalls Sales in December 1891 and 1892 Allison bought and bred foundation mares that produced 20th Century greats Peter Pan, Pennant, Sweep and Broomstick. When a female ancestor of a target Ancestor was a close female relative of Man O War`s ancestors the breeding match was made.
The most important thing in enhancing Man O war`s ability to produce stakes winners was the presence of the TARGET
ancestors in the mares to which he was bred.
Man`s career stats:
with targeted ancestors got 33.2% stakes winners in 22 yrs
without trageted ancestors got 14.3% stakes winners in 22 yrs.
Star Shoot produced the best % of winners. Star Shoot himself won FIVE sire titles in NINE yrs just before Broomsticks time.
Star Shoot`s blood lines trace to the PUREST ARABIAN STALLION blood lines of the 16th century.
When Man O War was tageted with this PURE Arabian line Man produced 50% stakes winners.
Scientists today have found THE PREVALENCE AND CONCENTRATION of Man O War -- Star Shoot blood were significantly higher in the elite population of recent Grade 1 stakes winners than in a random control pool of non Grade 1 winners
Cigar was the best horse that ever lived hands down, no discussion, because the horses I've seen run are Man O' War, Secretariat, Regret, Citation, Seabiscuit, War Admiral, Phar Lap, and Cigar, and he is the best, so say what you would like but I've seen the greatest of the greats run. Please post your opinion.
Back in 2000 I went to Kentucky Horse Park and Cigar was there at the time! I actually got the chance to get a pictue taken of me with Cigar! The first thing that came out of my mouth was "I'm standing next to a descendant of Man O'War" but I didn't really appreaciate the moment till I got home and did research on him. He is tops on my list I will admit that.
Ive also met Cigar, and Ive also met Bewitch, Coaltown, and Citation in Illinois were i saw them race when they let Betwitch win. One of the "great ones" ive met is Secretariat whom was very nice.
Seattle Slew Cigar`s dad was more horse than Cigar. I met Slew. Remember a blood disease almost killed him at age 3. He was written off as a has been by horseman but he returned at age 4 to beat Affirmed Triple crown champ. In 1976 NO HORSE won at Belmont all year if the horse was leading and on the rail. Very Dead rail bias. In Sept 1976 Seattle Slew won TWO RAces on a muddy dead rail at Belmont. One was The Champaign STks. And Slew RAN the fastest mile ever for a two year old that day. Leroy Jolly Hall Of Fame trainer so impressed with Slew( when he saw Slew win TWICE whwere no horse won before) He offered a FORTUNE TO the Taylors for Slew but they refused to sell him.
Cigar was 2xs as good as Slew, in my mind slew was UGLY no offense but i htought he was, he didnt have that good of times compared to ther greats also such as Secretariat, Man O' War, and Citation, but u can have ur own opinion.
Cigar's sire was Palace Music, it was his dame with Slew in it, in fact Solar Slew was his mother, and Seattle Slew was her sire. You need to look up your info better before u start stating facts that you think are right, so please just be careful with your facts.
Non match Slew. Forget TImes When eye to eye with Dosent matter Times set by Cigar. If Cigar were head to head with Slew Cigar`s TImes times would drop DRASTICALLY!!!!!
I will bet the mortage Slew melts down Cigar!!!
Ther Manner in which times are set are MORE IMPOTRANT than the times itself. Shove breeding facts too. That dose not win races.......Every horse`s total enery output is REDUCED when eye to eye with another horse. THE MOST INTIMIDATING EYE TO EYE HORSE was Slew. Angel Coder told me himself at Spa in 1992 Slew was the most INTIMIDATING HORSE in hid riding era. Either riding him or riding against HIM. You are talking STUPID if u say Cigar`s times are better than Slew so he would beat SLew. Cigars times would suffer seriously if head to head with the slew.
Regret won the Derby in 1915 and for you to have seen her win and have the mental capacity to form an opinion on her ability, then you would have to have been at least 18 at the time. This would make you 23 when you saw MOW run as a 3 year old, which means that today you are..107 years old, you must be the oldest Web surfer in the world, excuse me while I burst out laughing for 35 minutes..............
Last week you called yourself War admiral, this week you're Cigar who's it going to be next week ?
My guess is that you haven't seen any of those horses that you mentioned in your post.
You have no idea.
Seeing newsreels or seeing a horse in a stallor paddock does not qualify one as an expert. If Cigar has seen these horses run, she/he must have seen Native Dancer but doesn't mention it or any other greats since Citation.
Oh well.
Cigar is the greatest LIVING (bold and underlined) race horse. Man o' War is the greatest EVER. Secretariat is a VERY close second. Cigar is definately in the top ten best racers ever. I've gotten my photo taken with Cigar 2x at the KHP. He is awe-inspiring. Be sure to check out the other photos of Cigar that I have, especially the ones in the Cigar @ BreyerFest 2004 album. There are some great ones in there of him rolling in the mud. That horse has such character it is unbelievible.
Photo of me with Cigar: http://community.webshots.com/photo/69632995/79405163uNsxQd
My Man o' War Website: http://community.webshots.com/user/manowar2003
are you talking about the old film of the match race with Sir Barton? If there's other film of Red racing, I'd love to see it.
Scientists of the time filmed Red running and measured his stride. I'm not sure if they drew their conclusions from the match race film or another. I've also heard there was a rumor at the time about shipping MOW to California to be filmed and studied but Riddle wouldn't agree.
Off topic: thank you very much David H in England, your posts are answering some questions that've been bothering me for longer than I'd like to admit to.
Despite alleged mismanagement, Man O War`s stud career was anywhere from superb to phenomenal. During his 22 seasons at stud, Big Red was never bred to more than 25 mares in any one season,resulting in an average crop of 17.3 foals. Man O War sired 381 offspring, 62 or 16.3% became stakes winners.
One undeniable fact regarding Man O War`s sire career is that he was not able to maintain his tremendous early rate of siring top class runners.
First five years: 29% Stakes winners
Next eight years : 16.1% Stakes winners
Last nine years: 8.1% winners.
Man O War captured one sire title in 1926. He was second three other years. Broomstick won 3 sire titles.
In 1942 Man O War became the leader in Progeny Earnings in America. Man`s foals collectively had earned more money than any other American sire to the time. Man Replaced Fair Play his own sire as Progeny earnings leader in USA.
Looking at old posts here I see a lot of posts about Man O War` stud career and his later decendents. There is much to be said about that. But the American horse of the 20th century with the HIGHEST percentage of stakes winning foals is H P Whitney`s Broomstick 25.5%
When Broomsticks` foals ran against Man O War foals,The Man O War foals won almost always. Because Broomstick was past his prime by the 1920`s and 30`s. Every sire produces less and less stakes winners as he ages. Man O War was in his prime then.
Riddle was much maligned for the way he handled Man O War`s stud career. It was claimed Mr Riddle kept Man to
himself and his own mares. Almost no basis in fact for this claim. In the first two years He and Jeffords alone bred Man to their own foals. ONE SHOULD ASK WHO WERE RIDDLE`S AND JEFFORD`S OWN MARES?
In 1920 Riddle hired William Allison(Bloodstock EXPERT) to search England for the best mares for Man O War. Man`s Breeding was mostly European and Riddle wanted Man Targeted with great English mares who shared a common female ancestor with Man O War. Mr Jefford`s came over here in 1920 and with Allison picked 6 unraced mares who all had ties to Man`s Breeding. Roi Heorde was the most targeted ancestor. These mares cost Riddle more the 21,000 American dollars.
These 6 mares included in Man`s first crop reproduced stakes winnners at 38.8%.The entire Hail to Reason line came out of the first mare. War Admiral from the second mare. Horse of the Year Crusader (1926) from the 3rd mare.
War Relic from the fourth.
War Relic beat Whirlaway a most disputed photo finish which Mr Riddle lead a crusade to standardize photo finishes. Every Racing jurisdiction till 1940 used differents parts of a horses` body to decide a photo. Some used horses legs others any part. Now sometimes a horses`foot was over the finish line first but if that State used the head the horse lost.
Broomstick in 25 yrs at stud sired 280 foals 71 of which went on to become Stakes winners for a 25.5% average the most of any 20th century American Sire.
I'm a fan of jockey Gary Stevens and I think what he did in Rome was only right! I think it was crule to ask a horse who's injured to race, and it's wrong to suspend Gary Stevens because he thought the horse was unfit to race and refused to ride him! If you don't know what I'm talking about, you can read about it from Gary Stevens' website at http://www.garystevens.com/keep-informed.html and scroll down to the date 5/31 and he'll tell you all about it. A horse he was riding in Rome took off prematurely before the race and rammed into a cement wall and was bleeding out the nose. Gary thought the horse was unfit to race and refused to ride him and for that he was suspended.
This message has been edited by bmc86 on Sep 29, 2004 8:01 PM
many times I was told a horse was lame or unfit but my reacrtion has always been that if it were true the jockey would refuse to ride or the vet would scratch the horse. Jockey's refusing to ride is common and I think proper. Compliments to Gary. I have no idea why a trainer would let an injured horse run except to have it break a leg to have it put down for insurance. I think every horse that goes lame has a problem to begin with that is known to the trainer.
Who is the "Old Grey Mare, She ain`t what she used to be many long years ago"? I have heard this song many times growing up as a young school child. It is written by Stephen Foster. I really can`t picture what this song is about.
I found the answer to this on the Kentucky Horse Park website at this link:
http://www.imh.org/imh/kyhpl4b.html
This is what they had to say:
Horses of Song and Legend
1833 - Lady Suffolk, the Old Gray Mare
Lady Suffolk, who is the "Old Gray Mare" of song and legend, was foaled in Smithtown, Long Island, in 1833. She was a great-granddaughter of Messenger, and was the first trotter to go the mile in less than 2:30. She did it in 2:29.5 at the age of twelve. Her reputation lasted well after her death in 1853.
At a guess, I'd say that she'd been racing long past her prime when the song was written.
Headed West is still selling some of their pictures on T-shirts if anyone is interested! I found them on ebay doing so and selling some of their other stuff at http://stores.ebay.com/Headed-West-Equine-Art_W0QQsspagenameZl2QQtZkm and am already looking stuff going "I want that and that and that...." I can't help it, Sharrie Engler is good in my opinion where drawing horses are concerned. Just thought y'all might be interested.
Old Friends, an equine retirement organization, has recently announced that it is brining champions Criminal Type and Sunshine Forever back to the US from Japan. In addition to the returning champions, Grade 1 winner Creator is also coming home. They are expected to clear quarantine around Thanksgiving.
Old Friends was created in the wake of news that Excellor and Ferdinand had died in slaughterhouses after their stud careers abroad were finished. The organization broke deals with current owners of US-bred champions abroad.
I know everyone here is relieved to see these horses come home to a happy and dignified retirement.
To continue with a list of all time greats one must consider Lecomte who is owned by Duncan Kenner who was President of Louisiana Race Track in 1850`s. Duncan Kenner also the LARGEST slave owner in the South. His plantation Ashland had 400 slaves. Abe Hawkins was one of these slaves. He is also the best jockey of the day. He is given the mount on all of Duncan Kenner`s mounts. LeComte raced against Lexington in the 1854 Great States Post race at New Orleans La. Ridden by Abe Hawkins LeComte ran a blistering fast pace in the 3rd heat and so tired Lexington that Lexington withdrew from the race. The only loss by Lexington.
The next year Lexington came again to New Orleans to run in the Post Race again. April 1, 1855. Duncan Kenner had Lecomte there again but he refused to race against Lexington. He had beaten Lexington Once and did not want to give him a chance to even it up.
So Lexington runs against the clock in an effort to beat the world record for a 4 mile heat 7:23 1/5 was the world record(Held by Lecomte in the race he beat Lexington) Lexington smashed the world record by more than 4 seconds! (7;19) Upon seeing this great pressure was put on Kenner and he was forced to race Lecomte against Lexington again. This race April 14, 1855 is the closest head and head race in American History. Affirmed and Alydar head and head for only one mile and a half(Belmont 1978) Jaipur Ridan no more than 4 inches apart for 1 mile and a quarter.(1962 Travers which broke Man O Wars Travers record)
Lexington and Lecomte went head to head for SEVEN Miles!! Lexington won the Post Race of 1855 by a 1/4 of a second in each heat. Lexington set the world record for a 4 mile heat (7:23 WHEN FACING HORSES)
This is the last of the Great States Post Races as the Civil War began in 1861 and This Old Southern Way of life was gone, Gone With The Wind as the Novel says.
What List do we compose of All Time Greats?
Who knows? But the tops I see are:
American Eclipse(1823)
Black Maria (1832)
Boston (1841)
Lexington(1855)
One may continue with "tops" in the 19th century.
Black Maria 1832 Great States Post winner. This was FIVE Four mile heats. Black Maria defeated Trifle and Lady Relief in TWENTY one mile races in one day! This was cruel and the last 20 mile heat in Post races. Black Maria lost over 100 lbs and almost collapsed at the end. Even the jockeys were exhausted and had to be lifted off the horses by thier grooms.
Boston foaled in Virginia in 1833 is the MOST raced horse in History. Nasty tempered grandson of Diomed savagely bit every horse around him. Finally broken by his slave handler Cornelius. Boston won 40 races in his career. 30 of these at 4 mile heats. Consider modern horses. Secretariat has raced 24 miles in his career winning 18 miles plus. Boston raced 170 miles winning 121 miles.
Boston retired in 1840 and covered 42 mares. Was pulled out of retirement as he was the best the South could offer to run against Fashion in the Post race.
Boston won the first four races upon coming out of retirement all at 4 mile heats. Then in Camden NJ he raced against Fashion in the Great States Post Race of 1841. But by now Boston was exhausted and lost the Post race to Fashion(NJ bred)
Was Boston a good sire? Well he is the sire of the great Lexington.
In 1845 Peytona beat Fashion in the Great States Post Race held at Union Course in NY. Peytona then the biggest and longest striding horse in America. Last of the North and South confrontations in Post Races. More than 70,000 people showed up for this race. Large public crowds at sporting events was born.
There has been a number of "shouts" and arguements on this board recently and I'm getting sick and tired of it. So I did something I swore to myself to never do, I made rules on this board. I really didn't want to do that, but some of the new posters on this board seem to be hot heads, that or they think that since there are no rules on this board that it's not monitored. So these are the new rules for this board.
1. RESPECT EVERYONE! Meaning to all readers, respect the posts you read on this board; and to all the posters, respect all the readers on this board.
2. No Debates/Arguments! I'm sick and tired of arguements on this board! If you want to know how to treat a person on this board, see rule #1.
3. NO X rated stuff on this board!
4. Watch your language!
5. If someone posts a message you think is inappropriate, then please email me and I'll look into it. But don't post back at them, that starts fights on this board in the first place.
If you can agree to these rules, then you are more than welcome to post on this board. If you have questions about this board then please email me and I'll be happy to answer your questions.
So mention is made of Dr Fager`s world record at Arlington Pk. 1:321/5 standing still. This is not his best speed adjusted figure. His best speed adjusted figure is a loss to Damascus in 1968 July 20 at Aqueduct. Damascus ran 1:59 1/5 for 10 fl. Track Record still standing. This figure by Damascus equals Secretariats Belmont in BEYERS Speed. But it is a mile and a quarter not mile and half. Dr Fager run dizzy by Hedevar this date shows the power of Dr Fager. Every horse runs his best figure when loose on the lead. But here Dr Fager has head and head for more than seven fl. Track was fast and very dry and hard for 10 days of 95 plus heat in NY that 10 days. Burned my legs just standing out there at Aqu. for 3 minutes. Dr Fager the only star I have seen whose best BEYER is a LOSS.
I remember Turkoman, Retiree. He had an awesome finishing kick that could take your breath away. His Tallahassee Handicap was amazing. He was trailing the field on the turn and won it going away by five lengths. I think they figured that he ran a mile at the same clip as Dr Fager's world record. Speaking of tall horses, did you realize that both he and Forego were descendents of Man o' War's son American Flag? Maybe there is a "tall" gene in there somewhere.
Celeste
Secretariat has always been, and always will be the greatest race horse to ever live, just look up his stats vs. any other horse he is #1, forget about polls, those are peoples opinion's and not facts. Point is Secretariat is number one, so keep your opinion, but Secretariat is always gonna be the greatest racehorse that ever lived.
The Fifties have no Triple Crown Winners!! Gallant Fox in 1930 was the first TC to be called a Triple Crown winner. Charlie Hatton`s wife said "Triple Crown" just fell out of his typewritter. It is in print in 1931. However the publicity dept. did not milk the term Triple Crown Winner untill 1935 when Omaha a son of Gallant Fox won the Triple Crown.
Gallant Fox won the Preakness first, Ky Dy second, Belmont 3rd. The first time a starting gate was ever used in a Triple Crown race was the Preakness of 1930.
Gallant Fox trained by Sonny Jim Fitzimmons won all but one race in 1930. The one loss the Travers in which Gallant Fox had a speed duel in the worst mud of the meet. Wichone ran hard and eye to eye with Gallant Fox for alomst a mile. Fox shook him finally and spurted for a clear lead but the crowd was silent as Jim Dandy a 100-1 shot started running fast on the outside.
All could see Gallant Fox was tired from his early efforts with Wichone and was fading at the end. Jim Dandy won by 8 legnths, his only win in 20 starts in 1930. Earle Sande who once rode Man O War was Gallant Fox` jockey and left the weigh out area quickly and told Daymon Runyon
it was the most bitter disappointment he ever had as a jockey. "losing on such a fine horse as Gallant Fox." This was the largest crowd at the Travers since Man O War`s travers in 1920. More that 50,000 fans attended, including NY State Governor Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Here again head and head speed duel has defeated a great horse and produced a very unlikely winner. It is a common occourence.
Steroids were used in 1970's and up thats why those horses were so dang fast!
by War Admiral Fan
The horses from the begining of racing till about the end of the 1960's didnt run on steroids, whcich makes them more great then horese from the 70's and up. Also, did u know Secretariat was so dossed up on steroids he couldnt reproduce for a whole year. I think steroids should be taken out of racing, also i think they should put those old Iron shoes back on the horses fo today to see what they can really do. So maybe, War Admiral, Omaha, Citation, etc., were actually better Triple Crown Winners then say Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed. Also, dont you all see that the horses winning the Triple Crown were mainly in the first part of the Century because they were of higher status, and harder competitoin then the horses fo the 70's, and by looking at all this information we can see ONLY 3 TRIPLE CROWN WINNERS have happend since the steroids, which points out that those horsess might not have bean able to win the Triple Crown without steroids, because they may have been just moderate horses. Im not dissing the horses of the 70's TC winnners, im just saying maybe they wouldnt be TC winners without all the STEROIDS. Do you agree with me Man O' War fans?
First I never heard of any steroids per say. Which one are you refering to?
Are these legal? I have seen a Gelding give a hormone that makes him think he's a whole horse so to speak. That is undetectable because its a natural substance. But it doesn't increase speed just makes the animal more aggressive. The only thing I'm aware of is Bute, a pain killer, and Lasix, for bleeding, both legal drugs.
I don't knoww of any trainer that would waste the time or money to administer steroids to a horse especially one of value. I don't know where you got your information but it makes no sense.
If you knew anything about horseracing, it is to win, so if you wanna winner, you get steroids to make a winner better then what he already is, comeon its just common sense.
...from what I hear, steroids make a horse hard to handle and sterile, WAF. It doesn't help their racing much, if it all, and it kills any potential they'd have at stud.
Just look at what happend to Cigar a supposed "good racehorse" dossed up on so many dang steroids lost his chance for stud, thats all the proof you need ask any HORSE HISTORIAN or FAN.
I've heard the old rumor that Secretariat was bulked up on steroids, but unless someone produces compelling evidence I'll continue chalking it up to jealousy. Secretariat was such a muscular horse that he looked pumped up compared with many Thoroughbreds, but looking at his chunky physique throughout his life and the similar physiques of many horses that he sired makes me think that it probably was natural.
Hey, there used to be rumors that Man o' War was the greatest "hophead" horse of all time. ;> Do I believe them? No -- because the well-known feisty and eager-to-run temperament of his sire and grandsire, which MoW also passed on to many of his get, could make cynical people assume that he was getting the juice.
Re: Secretariat's fertility -- his first fertility test, taken shortly after he left the track in late 1973, showed lots of immature sperm. The vets said this was not uncommon for a three-year-old. Secretariat scored with his first test breeding, to an Appaloosa mare (who produced the future influential Appaloosa stallion First Secretary), and went on to produce a normal number of foals from his first breeding season.
From a web site for animal treatment.
"Stanozolol is used in horses to improve appetite, weight gain, energy levels and muscle mass primarily in horses recovering from illness, surgery, overwork, or other major stress. Anabolic steroids are also used in racehorses and performance horses to improve strength, increase muscle mass and try to improve athletic performance. There is no research evidence that supports their use as a "performance enhancing" drug."
Secretariat could beat the pants off any horse even if he did use steroids or not, "which he didnt, there was a FAKE add saying he was unable to reproduce which was true, but it was because he still wasnt able to" so what im trying to say is retiree is right so get over it, War Admiral wasnt the greatest nor Man O' War, Secretariat was the greatest which is a proven fact, just look at page 7, and go to stride length, that'll give you all the info you NEED to know about horse racing, all of which are proven facts, so please don't argue with me, but you can keep your opinion, even though it is only a opinion and not a fact.
Alright people enough is enough. Yes steriods in a horse is a hot topic but it seems that all this string is doing is ticking people off. I'm not gonna say one person is right and one is wrong, BUT how about we just all agree to disagree on this okay, and lets put this string to a close? One thing I DON'T want is this string to cause a fight. So to everyone, Just Agree To Disagree, okay? And lets try to end this string diplomatically please.
Seattle Slew in the Preakness had to overcome post 9 when the Pimlico Course was favoring the rail very strongly. Cormorant was in post one. Slew had to give Cormorant and J O Tobin 18 to 24 ft to the rail from post nine. Cormorant had equalled the track record at Aqu in the Gotham and J O Tobin just missed the track record at Hollywood Pk. Many were saying Seattle Slew would not overcome that distance against the two fastest horses in America. However Slew running as he pleased caught Cormorant quickly and went head and head for over a mile. In fact they ran the mile in 1:34 2/5 fastest mile ever in the Preakness. Such a speed duel should have melted down Slew but it was Cormorant who faded!!. Jean Cruget sat still as a statue into the stretch not pushing Slew at all. Slew won eased up and many said plainly Slew would have beaten Secretariat`s time in the Preakness if pushed in the stretch. But it was not necessary. It would be potentially dangerous to run hard when tired for now breakdowns and injuries can occur. Slew won anyway.
DRF had to admit wow We have underestimated Seattle Slew`s greatness. Cormorants jockey said WE could not out foot Slew. We did our best. We will race from now on where Seattle Slew is not.
Jimmy Jones was present at this Preakness and would say later that night I was lucky enough to be around many greats at Calumet Citation included. But Seattle Slew has shown me all 1`s. And he keeps winning and winning. I am from Missouri and Seattle Slew has shown me something.
Jimmy Jones has put Seattle Slew in a class with Citation.
You need to read up on Native dancer. His son, Raise a Native, was Two Year old Horse of the year, got hurt but got started on his stud career sooner. Among his sons were Alydar, Mr. Propector, Exclusive Dancer(sire of Affirmed) Then there is The 'Dancer's Daughter, Natalma, Northewrn Dancer's dam. As a result I would guess The 'Dancer appears in the pedigree of half the horses in the USA and possibly Europe. Take a look at the Keeneland sales going on right now. The catalogues are on line.
You cut your original list to pieces, what happened to Secretariat ? he's not even on your revised list.
Good to see the Aussie Champ Phar Lap on both lists.
There realy can`t be such a top 10 list of all time greats. But one can break down different time periods.
In the first half of 19th century a list can look like this;
American Eclipse (Great States Post Race winner! 1823)
He is a ripe 8 yr old taken out of retirement to face the best the South can offer. Sir Henry. Remember the rules of Great States Post races. Any horse foaled North of the Potomac River races for the North and any horse foaled South of the Potomac runs for the South.
Northern United States in 1823 is Puritan controlled and the Puritans consider gambling wicked, sinful and a waste of time! So the North has only 5 race tracks in 1823 and the South has 63!!! The South has many more plantations on which to foal horses too. Union Course on Long Island is the first dirt and rail track in America. Each side has put up $20,000 and winner take all is the rule. It is to be a best two of three FOUR MILE HEAT event. After losing the first heat American Eclipse changes jockeys. Samuel Purdy rides him and AE wins the next two heats. American Eclipse is the biggest purse winner at $56,000 until Lexington passes him in 1855.
Sightseek wins the Ruffian! :-) I found 2 news sites about her win at http://sports.iwon.com/news/09192004/v5406.html and http://www.ntra.com/news.asp?type=races&subtype=races&id=12231
I applaud anyone who can make a choice between those two. It's kinda like saying, which is better, Affirmed or Alydar, because it's basically the same idea, sorta east meets west. Myself I'd have to say that they both impress me so I like them both, as for which one is better, I have no idea.
Oh here's a tiny piece of info you may not know War Admiral Fan, Seabiscuit's sire is half-brother to War Admiral. War Admiral's sire (Man O'War) is Seabiscuit's grand-sire. Interesting huh? I found that out after I read the book.
War Admiral is a year younger than, Seabiscuit, but still he is the Biscuit's uncle.Sorta weird right!I found that info out in Seabiscuit by Laura Hillenburg and in War Admiral by Edward Bowen.
If I had to make a decision right now I'd say War Admiral, BUT even the Admiral had his off days, and so did Seabiscuit. So I do believe comparing Seabiscuit to War Admiral is kinda like comparing Affirmed and Alydar. Both horses were amazing and good in their own right. I think for myself, depending on my mood at the moment I'd be flip-flopping between Seabiscuit and War Admiral. To me both horses were impressive.
Thanks, they were both amazing horses. I think the reason everyone rooted for Seabscuit is because the auther and the movie director made Seabiscuit seem like he had some human quility to him of being the Poor Man's horse. But you can't blame Seabiscuit nor War Admiral for the competitiveness that their owners had. So I normally try to look at the horse as an idividiual as well, I mean, remember both the book and movie of Seabiscuit focued a bit more on the humans in the horses' life, at least it seemed that to me.
Yeah, both book and movie of the Biscuit should've focuesed a little more on the Biscuit's times, skills, competition, and records for instance. Also they shouldve put the Admiral's true size in the movie. They sorta made Seabiscuit more of a poor man's horse, than what he really was "an extrodinary animal". Still though, the movie was pretty good, but i woulda liked it if they told more about the Admiral and true things about him.
Re: Will Somebody Please Read This and put down their opinion!
by Tulloch
We hear a lot of "if only's" these days when it comes to comparing horses from different eras, if only they could have met on the track and raced each other, then we'd know who was the best. Man O'War and Secretariat are a classic example of this "need to know" mentality that surrounds Champions from the past.
With War Admiral and Seabiscuit the situation was different, two great horses at their peak and a lot of skiting going on by the connections of both horses as to which horse was the better.
There's no doubting War Admirals greatness, but on November 1, 1938 Seabiscuit beat him fair and square, and not by a narrow margin, but a widening 4 lengths.
Did this race prove that Seabiscuit was a better horse than War Admiral ? if you were to have asked the Howard camp the answer would have been a resounding "YES".
To me it didn't prove that Seabiscuit was better physically but much more superior mentally, War Admiral was used to dictating the pace in his races, but when Seabiscuit burnt WA off from the start and took control of the race, the Admiral couldn't cope with his favoured racing pattern being disrupted.
You have to remember too that Seabiscuit's racing style had to be changed for this race as well, he was ridden from the start with the whip to get the lead, so you'd have to say he handled the race better "mentally" than War Admiral did.
To me they were both great, but if I had to have my life riding on one of them it would have been Seabiscuit.
Books and movies aside, everyone seems to discount the human element in racing. Would Sec have been the same horse with say Baffert as a trainer?
Imagine if you could make three copies and give each one to a different trainer.
Would you expect a deadheat if raced together?
Would Affirmed be a TC winner without Cauthen?
Or MOW a champion for that matter without Fuestle?
Great horses have to be born with the ability, but it needs to be developed, even recognized by someone.
Jockeys have their own style, some whipping at the softy part of the belly, some the shoulder, and others, the flanks.
Trainers too have their "style", some like to work a horse hard, some change dedpending on the animals responses to training regemin.
All of this goes into what makes a horse what it is. Next time someone wants to have a match race, let them switch to the other horse. and see what happens. Now that would draw a crowd.
Oy stop the fighting! This is A Man O War board. And he is a star. Any horse we compare to him must be a star also. Longfellow 1868 was the longest striding star and the tallest not only in the 19th century but up to now in fact.
Think of the first half of the 19th century. All the greats that ran then. American Eclipse, Sir Archy,Grey Eagle, Boston,Fashion,Henies` Maria. None had a stride as much as 26ft, and none as tall as 17 hands. These horses were carefully measured by their slave attendants. Consider lllast half 20th century. Dr Fager, Damascus, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Spectular Bid, etc. None of these measured as high as 17 hands and none had a 26 ft stride either. It should be obvious that we are comparing only stars to each other. What difference if a giraffe is taller than Longfellow? It should be assumed only compare tops. Rock Hard 10 not in this company at all.
We tend to talk about Man O'War but also horse racing in general. Yes we do sometimes talk about other horses, but since there is no way to get Man O'War, Colin, Secretariat, Phar Lap, Kincsem, and all the other international greats together to race, then there's really no way of being able to civily talk about who's the better race horse, at least I haven't see how it's possible.
I'm a die hard Man O'War fan, but I also have some favorites that may or may not be favorites of others on this board. For me its:
Man O'War
Kincsem
Phar Lap
Seattle Slew
War Admiral
Seabiscuit
Exterminator
Black Gold
Cigar (I met him once)
Eclipse
Ruffian
I also like Secretariat, Forego, Nijinsky II (an English Triple Crown winner who didn't race in the US), John Henry, and Spectacular Bid, all of whom I've met.
Much to my astonishment, Forego took a liking to me and would come and stand next to me whenever I showed up at his paddock. Others noticed it too. I heard a woman calling to her husband
"Honey, come quick and get his picture while we can use this woman as bait!"
Knowing Forego's nippy reputation, I was a little concerned she might be right! Anyway, they told me they'd been trying to coax him to come over to them for 15 minutes when he spotted me arriving. Perhaps Forego figured that anyone as round as me had to be a soft touch for food. He was right. I learned to carry apples for him. Looking at that slightly convex nose whenever he vacuumed apple quarters off my hand I'd have to grin and tell him
"You got that nose from great-great-great-great-great-grandpa Man o' War, didn't you, big guy."
And speaking of the 'big guy', War Admiral Fan is right. Forego was 17.2 hands tall and would barely fit in the starting gate. Like Man o' War, however, he could unwind those long legs in a hurry when sprinting. He was really something to see.
Forego was well beaten in KY Derby by Secretariat!!! Forego`s own trainer refused to ever race him against Secretariat again. We have not mentioned Forego`s stride. It is under 26 ft, while the stride is more important than the height it still dose not tell the ability of a horse to run fast and far. More important is a horses` ability under pressuse in a race. Stride and height are not IMPORTANT compared to ability!
I don't think anyone is going to argue with you. Forego matured late and was well behind Secretariat in ability, at least at 2 or 3 and probably at any age. Certainly his owner, Mrs Martha Gerry, said so. But Forego WAS a multiple champion, a great handicap horse and sprinter. He was 'Horse of the Year' for three years running (1974, 1975, 1976), beating out Ruffian for that honor in 1975. Surely that says something about his perceived ability?
As for size translating to speed ... of course it doesn't, or draft horses would be Triple Crown winners. The point we're trying to make is that there ARE a few freakishly large good thoroughbreds out there.
I also agree with you that Longfellow heads that list giant champions.
This thread was started claiming none were bigger than Longfellow as well as stride. So why is it surprising that people respond about horse heights, including for "champions"? Why is it cause to get in a twist and tell us only ability counts? That wasn't the point of the thread! (BTW the *old* posts did not refer specifically to *champs*, either, so why not any TB?)
because chapms are what it is about.Nothing like Longfellow whose owners kept his jockey and trainer secret. till recent uncoverings common sense really they do not match Longfellow`s stride only Peytona and before her Boston can come near 26 ft stride. Boston beat Fashion in an earlier match. He lost to Fashion when Gilpatrick hit Boston into a fence and a nail pierced Boston`s side. He could not continue the races. Leg propulsion had by Boston made him tops. Elaborate on this
Boston covered 42 mares in 1841 came back to raceafter such spent energy. 45 races 40 wins all at 3 or 4 mile heats. Exact height and inches of stride make little differecnce in real world running of races. Boston so overworked that he was blind and lame in his old age. Boston sired both Lexington and Lecomte this pair set world records while beating each other. In fact only Lexington`s own foals and grandchildren could equal or break his records for the first 30 years after Lexington set them. You have very shallow knowledge of American Racing History. Missing the real life points to it. Lexington so powerful a sire that 13 sons of Lexington were entered in the first Travers in 1864. 12 scratched overnight. Kentucky Lex son won it.
David/Anonymous, I'm surprised you didn't mention - in your egotistical eagerness to show how much you know - that Boston sired Peytona (who in fact was a FILLY, another little blatant error of yours), and isn't it funny how they both raced Fashion.
Amazing I know that, huh? Fact is, frankly, I know a bit about racing history; history is my bag as well as engineering and I suck it up. Now, I don't know as much as any1 who makes it a career, or has all the time in the world to find out every trivial factoid, but I do know more than alot of racing fans who only care about the present. Forgive me for not being perfect as you seem to be, or think, anyway.
But again, your reply has little tie-in to the original post (regardless if it's made by you).
The thread's original post: So&so is so tall in height and no1 else is as tall or taller.
Replies by innocents: Yes, here is Such&such who was so tall.
You: Height makes no difference. <------THAT WASN'T THE POINT OF THE O.P.! Can you grasp that it was not, and thus there was no *need* to tell people height doesn't matter (makes me think of a kid crossing his arms tensely when he threatens to take his ball and go home - diverting the subject from your errors), because they were not *talking* about what defines ~ability~?
And never mind that, again, you made a blatant error in the OP on that height thing. You are rife w/errors, which makes me doubt your word on anything else about which I have never even heard or of which I don’t know details.
I'm calling you on all this, even if all the civilized (and I suppose "know-nothing") regulars here including Beth insist on treating you kindly as if you were 10 different normal people. You don't deserve that respectful treatment; you should not expect anything but what you never fail to dish out, which is disrespect.
Geez, I double-checked since Genius never mentioned anything. Don't know how I have it stuck in my mind that Boston sired Peytona. I know Anon, etal, will be thrilled about this and gloating endlessly!
But unlike Anon, etal, I know I'm wrong and I'm not going to come out swinging trying to divert attention from my error.
I am not ten people and u r wrong about Peytona and those things u say are not true. You wont need a job as an engineer if you were so good at predicting horses. Age gender height matter little in real time. You have noting good to say about anyones posts I do not read yopur posts any way. You are a coward. You won`t talk so brave to my face. Only on line are you brave and insulting. Leave my wife out of it. PUNK
I am not ten people and u r wrong about Peytona and those things u say are not true. You wont need a job as an engineer if you were so good at predicting horses. Age gender height matter little in real time. You have noting good to say about anyones posts I do not read yopur posts any way. You are a coward. You won`t talk so brave to my face. Only on line are you brave and insulting. Leave my wife out of it. PUNK
You are talking trash. Those points do not win the money. You won`t be working as an engineer if you understood horses. I call u in as a boob of book worm learning which does not win the cash.
I am Beth Chaisson, the creator of the site and this board. I don't know if some of you are new to this board or not, so I'm gonna give y'all the benefit of the doubt this once. But please understand one thing, I DON'T LIKE DEBATES ON THIS BOARD! The regulars and I have seen debates between Man O'War fans and Secreatariat fans, and believe me it's been ugly on occasions.
War Admiral Fan, we respect your belief that you think War Admiral is better than Man O'War. We have people from other countries on this board who think a race horse from their country is the best race hrose in the world instead of Man O'War or War Admiral, but we co-exist on this board by RESPECTING everyone's ideas, and not starting a debate on it. Now if you want a post messages in a civil manner, then you're more than welcome on this board to post your thoughts, but I do demand that you respect what everyone else thinks.
The the Anonymous posters, some of you have shown respect to other posters and for that I thank you. But some of you have been coming on here with an attitude, COOL IT! I don't like attitude problems on this board, and YES I have deleted messages off this board! So don't push your luck!
I know some people look at debating or arguing an issue as some sort of fun just to go back and forth on a topic for one reason or another, but I'm not one of them. So everyone had BETTER START RESPECTING POST AROUND HERE. This might seem like a bit much but I'm not gonna let this get out of hand to the point it's an all out argument on this board!
Beth Chaisson
P.S. If anyone wants to post something like "Geesh, you should let up" or "get a life" or something like that, then apparently you are new to this board, I watch this board for the sake of the regulars that comes on this board, and I'm not about to let a few trouble makers start something on this board. So if I have to go to extremes, then I will!
I have only one rule for this board, and that is RESPECT. Everyone must respect what the other person chooses to post on this board, but the poster must also respect the readers on this board. That's all I ask from everyone on this board, and as long as you are okay with that, you are welcome to continue to post on here.
If this is a Man O' War site, with Man O' War fans you people must know War Admiral took his father's record in the Belmont while having a hurt foot, that shows more class then Man O' War ever had, but u all have your own opinions, so type them down.
"but u all have your own opinions, so type them down"
Well, we probably don't NEED to state our opinions. This IS a Man o' War site after all! And I've already stated mine and why. I won't restate it. (You'll find it here if yous missed it: http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=21441&messageid=1095479205 )
I'm glad you took on a name, War Admiral Fan, and it's straight to the point. Much better! :^)
"but u all have your own opinions, so type them down"
Well, we probably don't NEED to state our opinions. This IS a Man o' War site after all! And I've already stated mine and why. I won't restate it. (You'll find it here if yous missed it: http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=21441&messageid=1095479205 )
I'm glad you took on a name, War Admiral Fan, and it's straight to the point. Much better! :^)
Colin won his first two starts in 1908 and went into the Belmont Stakes in a violent and very dark thunderstorm. So dark and dangerous the clockers refused to take their places on the track. No time was taken! Colin bowed his tendon during this race and the crowd thought it was over at the usual finish line for jockey Joe Notter eased up on Colin. But there was still 50 yards left in the race. Fair Play well beaten now had a chance to win. But Colin won by a nose. Notter denied that he misjudged the finish line and said Colin was hurting in his legs. That is why he slowed down. Colin raced one more time and with that win he retired for his legs were bowed. Marshall Lilly, Colin`s exercise rider said the same. Marshall Lilly always wore a derby and the numeral one on his jersey when working out Colin. Lucien Lynn, Fair Play`s jockey in the Belmont would say in 1947 looking back "only three colts that I though were particulary outstanding." hey were Sysonby, Colin and Man O` War.
...That War Admiral was sired by Man o' War, Man o' War was sired by Fair Play, and that Fair Play was the horse that Colin beat by a nose in the 1908 Belmont Stakes? He was hardly a "nobody". At the very LEAST, Fair Play was the sire of Man o' War and grandsire of your beloved War Admiral!
All were exceptional racehorses, actually.
"Anonymous", you are certainly entitled to your view that War Admiral is the best racehorse ever, but we are entitled to our opinions as well. As there is no way for any of us to prove our case (since dead horses don't race often anymore) we're done. Your point is made: You think War Admiral is the best racehorse ever born. Fine.
David H's point was that the Belmont Stakes of 1908 was a very dramatic race in a very dramatic storm, run by two classy horses pushed to their utmost. He's right. Witnesses talked about that contest for a generation. It is such a pity Colin came out of the race injured.
It is interesting to me that David H attributed the quote he gave us to jockey Lucien Lynn. In 'The Blood Horse', that quote was attributed to James G. Rowe, the trainer of Colin and Sysonby, in the year Rowe died (1947). Now I'm wondering who REALLY said it!
By the way, Anonymous, would you like to give us your name? Surely someone with opinions as strong as yours isn't afraid to take credit for them!
Seabiscuit`s trainer Tom Smith had seen War Admiral race a few times before the match with Seabiscuit. Tom Smith noticed when any horse looked War Admiral in the eye he slowed up!!!. Smith ordered the jock on SeaBiscuit to let War Admiral catch up to him look him in the eye. War Admiral will fade predicted Tom Smith.
Indeed match races have been won 95% of the time by a horse running on the lead. Odd to give up the lead to War Admiral. Is it not? Tom Smith knew what he was doing. He predicted a 4 length win. He got it as SeaBiscuit allowed War Admiral to cath up. Seabiscuit was more horse that day than War Admiral. The time was 1:56 3/5 Track Record at Pimlico for a mile 3/16.
Rock Hard 10 a nobody 21 Century horse????
Among Champions Longfellow still longest strider.
Acctually, War Admiral would not slow down, when looked in the eye, Seabiscuit would just speed up, YOU should know this, everyone else does?But whatever..
It was Red Pollard that predicted 4 lengths, and even Tom Smith said " I woulda sworn our Biscuit would win be at the least ten lengths" so you need to look up your info better.
Dosent matter who predicted what. I do this by memory as history is a dull bore. Seabiscuit looked War Admiral in the eye and War Admiral hollered "Uncle".
Witness Man O War and J P Grier.(Dwyer) J P Grier ran eye to eye in faster than the 6fl track record with Man O War and Man set a world record for 9 fl in response. Harry Payne Whitney so impressed he leaped from his box seat and ran to congratulate Riddle on such a fine race by Man O War. Everyone understood how poweful a race that was for its` head and head conflict between 2 great horses.
The Mighty Atom{War Admiral} beat most of his father's records under a good amount of weight, so doest that make him king of thoroughbreds? You decide.
Man o' War was carrying as much as 130 pounds as a two year old and had to heft as high as 138 pounds to War Admiral's top weight of 132. Red set his track records under a stout pull, indicating that he was fresh and eager to run faster and/or farther. War Admiral was pushed more often.
Myself, I prefer Man o' War, but that's my opnion.
Don't misunderstand me. War Admiral's courage and speed was considerable. His Belmont Stakes was a remarkable display of fortitude and I think a recent popular movie did a great disservice to him. Given that, go right ahead and promote the little Admiral ("17 hands", my... foot!). Just don't expect me to agree with you on a comparison between War Admiral and Man o' War!
In the Movie The Admiral is described as a huge horse that is like IMMORTAL, but he was acctually aruond the same height as Seabiscuit, also Laura Hillenburg likes to exaggerate a bit in her book, when she says that Seabiscuit was just so much better then War Admiral, and I believe the Admiral just had an OFF day at Pimlico. Once, again I must tell non-believers that in Blood Horse, War Admiral was ranked 13th best of all, and Seabiscuit 25th, both good places, but War Admiral's placing was by far better then the Biscuit's. You may all also play your opinions and some of your complements about this. Thank you.
Hillenburg also turns Some of us agiants the Admiral
by Anonymous
Hillenburg also likes us to think as a mortal enemy of all. My friend was captured by her spell and he hates War Admiral, yet I like him better than Seabiscuit, what im trying to say, is that in my mind War Admiral was far more impressive then the Biscuit, although Seabiscuit was also impressive. So if u dont like War Admiral think of how HE helped America in the 1930's and how he helped us through the depression, sure he wasnt a UNDERDOG, but he did capture some of our hearts and immaginations, so I think we should all give the little Admiral an APPLAUSE for being another one of AMERICAS HORSES sorta speak.
The only American race horse to measure 17 hands was Longfellow. foaled in 1868. A son of Lexington He was the first American Sports Hero. He beat Harry Bassett at Monmouth Park NJ in 1872 by 200 lenghts!! New York crowds loaded upon ferry boats 10,000 at a time to ride to NJ and see that race.
Longfellow would race against Harry Bassett again in the Saratoga Cup. Longfellow would break a plate on his foot at the start of that race and for 2 1/5 miles run in great pain taking the lead in the stretch from Harry Bassett but lost by a length. He would never race again. Owner John Madden was in tears at the sight of Longfellow at the end of this race. Longfellow became a good sire. James Rowe Sr. Harry Bassett`s jockey would in the future often refer to Man o`War as "That Red Lobster" when he trained John P. Grier in 1919 and 1920. Longfellow`s 26 ft stride at the start of a race is the longest stride for any American race horse.
The second longest striding horse in America was close and it was Peytona foaled in 1840 at Belle Meade Plantation in Tenn. Peytona`s stride was 25 ft 10 inches and he was almost 17 hands high.
Paytona won the Great States Post Race in 1845 in NY at Union Course when he defeated Fashion in a best two of three heats. He raced 12 miles that day in 1845. 100,000 fans came out to see that race.
Man O' War's stride was 28ft and that aint even the longest by an American racehorse, teh longest was by Native Dancer with strides between 29-30ft.Go look it up!
Re: Height? You really dont know what your talking about do you!
by Elaine
no good man o war was measured by track attendents when he ran against Hookwink 24 ft 8 in motion stride. No horse can get 28 ft stride without splitting his legs in half!!!!
Are you that stupid anonymous who has been here since april 04. David is professor emeritus of History in English and American History at famous Universities in England. 1868 Longfellow was the top striding horse in America for the 19th century. A son of Lexington!!
Lexington was the best sire in American History. 600 foals and 230 Stakes winners. 43.3% Not matched by any American horse. No horse can get 30 ft stride and stand 16 hands. You can not have been around horses your self. You would realize the impossible stide you are claimimg
What about Man O War 28 ft stride????? I read all these false reports too I fell for it too as a kid. No good. 25 ft tops. War Admiral did slow when hooked always did. I cant think like you. Cant get my head that far up my rear end.
No you miss the point. Every horse runs his best speed figure when all alone on the lead. When the pace is contested his final time will be slower. You do not understand horses. By looking War Admiral in the eye seabiscuit reduced War Admirals final time. It is a gradual slowing down of speed. Horses always run slowest at the race end. Seabiscuit deaccelerated at a slower rate of speed the War Admiral.
Had Seabiscuit shown interest in racing at an earlier age for he was a lazy sleeper in his youth He would be amongst the greats of all time I think.
I thought you meant something else when we first started the argument.
by War Admiral Fan
When we first started this i thought u were being mean by like saying War Admiral was a coward when looked in the eye, what u last said is true, when we first started i thought u were being mean, but now i understand what u r trying to say.
not important details of which i knew Fashion a female too that day 1845 a no brainer really scads of details from that time available a month to find picayune details?? all you are about really.
You worry so da*n much ~about~ details; that's rich coming from you! Your alleged *knowledge* of these very same trivial details is what you hang your hat on to show every1 how much you know, and you know it.
I want to thank Beth Chassion and everyone here for their kind words of encouragement on my Man o' War website (www.man-o-war.info). You have no idea how much it means to be getting such warm feedback from people who really KNOW this horse.
Work is still progressing on the website.
If you have ever wished you knew which American racing champions were descended from Big Red, you now have have your wish. I've put up charts indicating those champions with Man o' War blood on the website. Bring your patience. I split the charts up, but the lists are still slow to load. I just hope it is easier to read than it was to type!
You'll find the links at http://man-o-war.info/champion_descendents.html Just cut and past that address into your browser's address window. Thanks!
In 1973 Secretariat did win the Belmont Stakes, with a time of 2:24 flat and doing so by making a world record, but also in 1937, War Admiral also won the Belmont taking his father's track record and doing so with a piece of his hoof chopped off. Now War Admiral was only about 4 seconds off Secretariat's time and probably would of done better if not for triping and hurting himself. Therefore, I think maybe that War Admiral had the most impressive Belmont Stakes.What's your opinion?
"It is difficult for the best experts to speculate on race comparisons. Each era had its horse 'greats' and we are simply privileged to have had the opportunity, past or present, to share in their greatness."
Penny Chenery, Secretariat's owner
I agree with Penny. Personally, I love BOTH champions and can't imagine the sport without either one. Why choose one when we can enjoy both? :^)
As for the "best Belmont Stakes", that's a tough one! The Belmonts of Man o' War, War Admiral, and Secretariat are exceptional races, as was the Affirmed/Alydar stretch battle. Any other nominations out there? Colin/Fair Play perhaps?
By the time War Admiral ran the Belmont, track officials were 'dressing' the track surface, speeding it up. Estimates were 5 to 10 lengths faster than 1920. They would remove the top layer so that the surface was very hard.
By 1973 (and today) they would also wet down the surface packing down the sand, again, speeding up the track. This is partly why it is claimed that modern tracks are two seconds faster than 1920, but not 4 seconds.
OPINION: For the 1973 belmont, there was a brown out condition due to the heat that was bent on drying out the track. A triple crown winner was needed as much then as now and just as with Smarty I think track officials thought a little help would be OK. So a lot of attention was paid to watering. I think they mis-judged how far a little help would go.
Of course, Sec didn't need it, but it did enhance the legend.
You do realize that "only 4 seconds" equates to 20 LENGTHS!! There has NEVER been a horse even close to Secretariat's ability and probably never will be. He simply was born physiologically FAR superior to any other. And it would almost be impossible for there to ever be another born so freakishly perfect. And thats not taking away anything from any of the other greats, but Secretariat is in a league all his own.
Man O` War Stakes Race will be run tomorrow Sept 11, 2004 at Belmont Park. Secretariat won that race in 1973. Who will win tomorrow`s renewal? It is to be run at 1 3/8 miles. Rather than try to project a winner of a fictional race between Man O`war and other greats of other times, let us project a future race. Only one entrant has won a major grass stakes race at exactly 1 3/8 miles. And that entrant has the best Beyer average speed on the grass for the last 5 races of each entrant. Request for Parole is the horse. If handicapping works this should be the winner of tomorrow`s Man O`War Stakes.
I find it ironic that the Man O'War Stakes is run on grass, which Man O'War himself never raced on.
When were grass races first run in North America? 1950s?
The first American Race Track to have a grass course was Monmouth Pk about 1871. Monmouth became the largest main oval track in circumference. In 1880`s it was rebuildt at 1 3/4 miles.
I've long been a Man o' War fan. For the last five years I've considered creating a website for Big Red. I finally sat down and did it. Come and take a look and tell me what you think. (Yes Beth, this site is on my links page!)
http://man-o-war.info
Blessings to you all,
Celeste
P.S. It isn't quite done, but there is a lot there and you'll get the idea.
Well written, well organized. You clearly did a lot of work.
You would seem to have a future in web page design if not already doing it.
I'm duly impressed!
Thanks, Retiree, and some suggestions on the MPEG file.
by
Hi, Retiree,
First of all, I tried to send this by way of your email address, but I got it back. I may have made a typo and had no way to correct it. I had gone into the guestbook and edited out your email address so that the email robots wouldn't mine it from my site. That ensured your privacy, but it also meant I couldn't check my typing! I should have erased the addy AFTER the email cleared. That's the trouble with hindsight. It's always too late to do any good!
The mpeg file is rather large for most email accounts to handle. I'm not surprised you couldn't post it that way. I don't know how computer savvy I am, but I'll give your problem a try. I've been thinking about this and I have four suggestions that I'll run past you. See if anything sounds feasible to you. Your limitations are the software you have installed and your sense of adventure.
First suggestion: This is the idea I think has the least likelyhood of succeeding, but I'll put it on the table anyway. Have you worked with zip files before? The software compresses a file to a somewhat smaller size. Sometimes that is compression is enough. You can attach them to email and send them on. The two drawbacks I see on that idea is that you have to have the software (you can download free compression software on the web), and I frankly don't think the compression would be enough on this file to enable you to send it anyway. But, if you have it and would feel comfortable attempting it, you could give it a try.
Second suggestion: FTP file transfer. It is the way that web designers upload large files to a server. It would work, however the instructions are a bit intimidating. Again, you would need to have the software, but free versions are readily available. I could give you temporary access to my server if you'd like to try it. Just let me know.
Third suggestion: If you have movie editing software, you might try splitting the movie up into smaller bits and sending them to me via email that way. I can re-assemble them and post them to my website, Limitation: This would take time for both of us.
Fourth suggestion: You could save the mpeg to disc and sent it to me via snail mail. I could then upload it via FTP from here. Let me know and I'll give you a mailing address. Limitation: the dubious "speed" of the post office.
My own inclination would be to go with the fourth suggestion. It's probably less trouble for us all around, but don't let me decide that for you. Does anything strike your fancy? Again, let me know!
Hope I've helped.
Celeste
PS If you send an email to celeste@celestial-realm.com I can verify the address when I reply.
Thanks for the suggestion. Sorry about the email address. I also have to look up my phone number. By the way the first file I had was 49+ megs (mpeg2) so it looks like MPG is compressed I got that down to around 9mgs. Let me fool around with your other suggestions. In the mean time here's a preview. Actually, these stills are the whole video, almost.
I've long been a Man o' War fan. For the last five years I've considered creating a website for Big Red. I finally sat down and did it. Come and take a look and tell me what you think. (Yes Beth, this site is on my links page!)
Aug 6, 1864. This is the first sports Saturday in America. It happens at Saratoga. The new Saratoga Race Course is opened during the Civil War. Every newspaper is on hand to report the races to the public. John Morrissey, who had influence with Pres Lincoln, got the US Army to release enough horses for racing. Horace Greeley is there with his Tribune, Leonard Jerome who owned NY Times paper is on hand as well.
It is the first call for a press box at a sporting event.
The days races were as follows.
First Race 2 1/4 miles Hurdles. Four 3 1/2 foot fences are laid out. This is the first Hurdles race in the United States. It is a Canadian Invention. The crowd mostly women were thrilled at seeing full grown men at 160 lbs. riding horses as the jockey of that day weighed only 88- 90 lbs.
Second Race: First claiming race in American History. The horses are sold at auction in front of Judges stand after the race.
Third Race: First Handicap Race in US History. More weight is placed on the better horses for the first time ever. Captain Moore is the winner in a walk over. This was to be a 3 3mile heat event. Nine miles of racing in 19 minutes in one day.
Captain Moore raced in 1863 at Saratoga-across the street- The Oklahoma Training Track. Where he won the first heat ever at Saratoga but lost the next two one mile heats to Lizzie W.
The photo is scanned and put onto the auction site.
Here's the description from the auction.
OLD PHOTOGRAPH OF RACE HORSE MAN O'WAR from 1931 measuring 8x10 inches. An original Wire photo published by NEA in 1931. A very rare photo of the greatest horse every to grace the track
Famous thoroughbred Man O' War History and records of the racehorse all others are judged by, Man o' War. On March 29, 1917 a chestnut colt was born to the mare Mahubah who would become the yardstick against whom all other racehorses for generations would be measured against. This colts name was Man o War. Man o Wars sire Fair Play was an excellent stud and had a better than average racing record. Both the sire and dam were owned by Major August Belmont and kept at Belmonts Nursery Stud Farm in Kentucky. With thoughts of the World War going on, Mrs. Belmont is the one who supposedly came up with the name Man o War. As Americas involvement in the War began, the horseracing worlds activities were curtailed with entries decreasing in even the biggest name races. This decrease became especially apparent when only eight colts took the field in the 1918 Kentucky Derby. Fearing the war was going to continue indefinitely, Major Belmont decided to keep only his breeding stock and sell his entire crop of yearlings. On Saturday, August 17, 1918 twenty-one yearlings from Nursery Stud Farm were put on the block at the Saratoga Yearling Sale. Man o War was one of these. In the audience was a new comer to the racing world, Mr. Samuel Riddle who took a liking to the big, chestnut colt and decided to buy him. With a winning bid of $5,000 and an idea that Man o War had the size to be a jumper if he didnt pan out as a race horse, Mr. Riddle took him home and turned him over to his new trainer, Louis Feustel. A $5,000 horse that Mr. Riddle would be offered a blank check for by Louis Mayer only a few years later. Starting his racing career as a two year old at Belmont Park, Man o War was ridden by Johnny Loftus. Entering the track as the race favorite he won by an easy margin. Three days later he again went to the post carrying 115 pounds in the Keene Memorial for a winners purse of $4,200 and once again left the field of horses far behind. With these two wins behind him, the track handicappers began piling on the additional weight to try and even up the fields. They tried but to no avail. In the Youthful stakes he carried 120 pounds and two days later he was in the Hudson Stakes with unheard of weight for a two year old of 130 pounds, a weight no other two year old in history had ever carried. By this time stables were hesitant about sending their horses to the post against him. In the Tremont Stakes only two other stable would have entries even though Man o War would be carrying 130 pounds to their meager 115. Consistently starting as the favorite and carrying 130 pounds Man o War would remain undefeated until the Stanford Memorial on August 13, 1919 when a bad start as well as being boxed in during the race had Man o War finish a close second to the aptly named Upset. This one race would be his only defeat and years later Willy Knapp, Upsets jockey would say he wished he had gone ahead and moved over during the race. That a horse as great as Man o War deserved an undefeated career. During his next race, the Grand Union Hotel Stakes Man o War would carry his routine 130 pounds but because of his win, Upset would be boosted from 115 to 125 pounds. The race itself was six furlongs and Man o War left Upset and the rest of the field far behind to set a new race record. Due to a personal dislike of young three year olds running the Kentucky Derbys mile and a quarter distance that early in the year, Mr. Riddle didnt enter Man o War into the 1920 running of that famous race. He did enter the other two of the Triple Crown events, the Preakness and the Belmont. Due to problems between Johnny Loftus and the Jockey Club, Loftus would not ride Man o War during his three year old career. In the Preakness, Clarence Krummer would be in the saddle and ride the great horse to the first of his three-year-old easy victories. In the Lawrence Realization Man oWar would win by an unbelievable 100 lengths. As he had as a two year old, Man o War would again be called upon to carry weights (138 pounds) no other horse his age had ever been made to carry. As a three year old Man o War started and won eleven times. Eight of these wins would set new records. Many of these records would remain untouched until Secretariat in the early 1970s. At Kenilworth Park in 1920 Man o War also faced Sir Barton, the first Triple Crown winner in history in a special match race. As with the rest of his races, Man o War won this race with relative ease. Knowing the handicappers would continue to add weight until breaking him, Mr. Riddle decided to retire Man o War at the end of his three year old career. During this career, he earned another record for his time, a lifetime earnings of $249,465. As a stud Man o War would sire 64 stakes winners and become the leading sire of 1926. His offspring included champions Scap Flow, Battleship, Crusader, American Flag, Maid at Arms, Bateau, Florence Nightingale and the Triple Crown winner War Admiral. He was also the sire of the Maryland Hunt Cup winner Blockade and champion show jumper Holystone. Man o War died at Mr. Riddles Faraway Farm in 1947 while still in the care of his groom Will Harbut, whose famous saying He is de mostest hoss will forever describe his equally famous charge.
His groom called him "de mostest hoss that ever was" and that about sums it up for Man o'War in the eyes of most American racing fans. Man o'War was not just a great racehorse -- he became the standard by which all runners have been compared then and ever since. Everything he did was bigger than life, his accomplishments on the track, his dominance as a stallion, and his tremendous charisma that drew visitors from around the world to see him in life and in death. Man o'War, a horse of mythic proportions, was probably the greatest American racehorse ever, and the masterpiece created by the great breeder August Belmont. Mahubah Man o'War as a foal The story started in the wee hours of March 29, 1917, when Belmont's young *Rock Sand mare Mahubah went into labor to deliver her second foal. It was a big one -- a tall, leggy chestnut colt with a star like his sire's, Fair Play's. Fair Play had been a top class racehorse and was well into a successful career as a stallion, this colt being in his seventh foal crop. (Fair Play's career is handled in more detail elsewhere in the Portrait section). The mare, Mahubah, was lightly raced, as were many Belmont-bred fillies. She had won a race, but being rather high strung like her sire, the imported English Triple Crown winner *Rock Sand (whose stall at Nursery Stud was heavily padded to reduce injury to himself), was retired shortly after proving her ability on the track. Mahubah's first foal was Masda, a 1915 filly by Fair Play, who was also excessively nervous, but managed to win 6 races from 23 starts. (Masda was the dam of 3 stakes winners and became the third dam of Triple Crown winner Assault. Her female line survives to this day.) Mahubah produced only 5 foals, all by Fair Play, and besides Masda, these included the good stakes winner My Play (1919), winner of the Jockey Club Gold Cup at 5 and a good sire. Mahubah was a half-sister to the stakes winner Tactics (g. 1909), by Hastings, and a full sister to the stakes winner Sand Mole (c. 1912). Their dam, *Merry Token, had been imported by Belmont in 1902 at the age of 11. She had won some minor stakes in England and was a half-sister to Tanzmeister. By 1917, Belmont was sitting on a gold mine. While several of Fair Play's earliest stakes winners had been out of homebred mares by *Rayon d'Or and mares by Hanover, the daughters of *Rock Sand (who first stood at Nursery Stud in 1907) were just beginning to retire to the broodmare paddocks. The first of them reached Fair Play in 1912, and the cross resulted in the stakes winner Sands of Pleasure (1913), followed by Mill Maid (1914). The 1916 crop, still just yearlings at the time, would produce Mad Hatter and Tailor Maid, both stakes winners from *Rock Sand mares. The next few crops were even more heavily invested in the cross, and ultimately, 18 stakes winners resulted from that direct nick. Mahubah's colt by Fair Play was the best of these, and Belmont probably had a good idea of what he had. War had broken out in Europe and Belmont volunteered for military service, becoming Maj. Belmont. He arranged to sell most of the yearling crop of 1918 at the Saratoga yearling sale, but intended to keep Mahubah's colt, which his wife had since named "My Man o'War." At the last minute, the Fair Play-Mahubah colt was included with the lot and sent to Saratoga. The Nursery Stud consignment was topped by the sale of Fair Gain, a colt by *Vulcain (by *Rock Sand) out of *Fairy Gold (and so a half-brother to Fair Play and Friar Rock), at $14,000, while the Fair Play-Mahubah colt brought a hefty $5,000, against the sale average of $1,038. The colt, whose name became simply "Man o'War" went home with Louis Feustel, trainer for newcomer Samuel D. Riddle, of Glen Riddle Farm. Man o'War on the Turf Man o'War was not an easy horse to break, showing much of the fiery nature inherited from Fair Play and Hastings, probably enhanced by the nervous energy coming from Mahubah and *Rock Sand. As a yearling, he had been a gawky, spare-looking individual that appealed to many, including Riddle, as a potential hunter-jumper. Many considered him something short of elegant, but he filled out into a truly magnificent specimen, tall and powerfully muscled, with the high head carriage of the Fair Plays. Man o'War's running gait was unusual, a bounding leap that covered a tremendous amount of ground. He was a free-running horse and despite his size, showed tremendous agility and acceleration at the break. His reputation in workouts preceded him, and Man o'War was the favorite in his racing debut, which he won, a 5 furlong maiden race at Belmont on June 6, 1919, by 6 lengths. Three days later he won the Keene Memorial (5.5f.) by 3 lengths, and followed up with victories in the Youthful Stakes (also 5.5f.), and Hudson Stakes (5f.) before the end of the month, winning both wire-to-wire. This wasn't just another good 2-year-old, however. In his first 2 races, he had carried 115 pounds, and was bumped up to 120 for the Youthful. His impost in the Hudson Stakes was a whopping 130 pounds, a weight which he carried in his next 5 starts. Man o'War raced just once in July, taking the Tremont Stakes (6f.) from flagfall to finish, and moved on to the prestigious Saratoga meet in August. He won the United States Hotel Stakes (6f.) by 2 easy lengths over Upset, but they met again 11 days later in the Sanford Memorial Stakes (6f.). In that event, the circumstances of which have become legendary, Man o'War's stablemate *Golden Broom set the pace, followed by Upset and then Man o'War himself, boxed behind the lead pair. Upset took over the lead into the stretch from *Golden Broom, who was tiring on the rail, but Man o'War had to go wide and around Upset to get past, and in doing so, ran out of room, with Upset hanging on for the win by half a length. Man o'War turned the tables in their next start, the Grand Union Hotel Stakes, (6f.), which he won by a length from Upset, then rounded out the season with wins in the Hopeful Stakes (6f.) by 4 lengths, and the Belmont Futurity (6f.) by 2 1/2 lengths, when asked to carry "only" 127 pounds, beating John P. Grier, a stablemate to Upset. It was only September, but Man o'War went into winter quarters at Glen Riddle Farm near Media, Pennsylvania with the growing reputation as a "wonder horse." The Fair Play colt opened his 3-year-old season with a win on May 18 in the Preakness Stakes (9f.) at Pimlico, defeating Upset (who had been second in the Kentucky Derby) by a length and a half, with Wildair in third. In the Withers Stakes (8f.), Man o'War romped home by 2 lengths ahead of Wildair, setting a new American record for the mile in 1:35 4/5. In the Belmont Stakes (11f.), the Riddle colt had scared off all but one challenger, the colt Donnacona, and Man o'War was absolutely devastating, winning by 20 lengths and setting another American record for the distance in 2:14 1/5. Taken back to a mile again in the Stuyvesant Handicap, and shouldering 135 pounds, Man o'War faced only Yellow Hand (carrying 103 pounds), and won by 8. In the Dwyer Stakes (9f.), with only 126 pounds, he again faced just one other starter, but this time it was the improving John P. Grier, with a feathery 108 pounds aboard. Grier ran with the big horse, one of the few times Man o'War was ever challenged for the lead, but still, the champion drew off to win by a length and a half, setting a new American record for the 9 furlongs in 1:49 1/5. After nearly a month off, Man o'War returned to action at Saratoga in the Miller Stakes (10.5f.), carrying 131 pounds, and beat Donnacona by 6 lengths in the process. In the Travers Stakes (10f.), the juggernaut entry of Upset and John P. Grier was thrown at him, but Man o'War still went wire-to-wire, winning by daylight, with 129 pounds in the saddle. In the marathon Lawrence Realization (13f.), he faced only Hoodwink, with 116 pounds to the champion's 126, and Man o'War won by a guestimated 100 lengths. In the Jockey Club Stakes over 12 furlongs (later known as the Jockey Club Gold Cup and run at 2 miles), Man o'War won by 15 lengths from his lone pursuer, Damask. In the Potomac Handicap at Havre de Grace, he carried 138 pounds and won by 1 and a half lengths, beating Wildair, carrying 30 pounds less. Now a match raced had been offered and agreed upon between the 3-year-old sensation Man o'War and the older champion Sir Barton, who dominated his crop at 3 and 4. The previous season, Sir Barton had won the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and Belmont Stakes, before that race became known as "the Triple Crown" of American racing. In the match race at 10 furlongs, known as the Kenilworth Park Gold Cup, Man o'War ran Sir Barton off his feet and won by 7 lengths in a humiliating display of superiority. That said, Sir Barton was giving the year-younger colt 6 pounds and was suffering a flare up of chronic hoof problems at the time. A film of the race shows Sir Barton floundering behind Man o'War the entire trip, looking like a beaten horse every step of the way. That final victory marked the end of Man o'War's race career, of 20 wins in 21 starts and $249,465 in earnings, a new record. Owner Riddle opted to retire him at this young age rather than face the crushing weights the handicappers had promised to impose on the red horse to make it fair for his opposition. Man o'War retired to Hinata Farm, north of Lexington, Kentucky which Riddle leased while shopping for a farm of his own. The horse and his retinue of mares and youngstock was relocated to Faraway Farm a couple of years later where Man o'War remained one of the biggest tourist attractions in the state until his death. Man o'War in the Stud The first crop by Man o'War was foaled in 1922. It was an exciting group, especially so because Riddle had taken the advice of expert horsemen like John Madden and bloodlines specialist William Allison in selecting the broodmares that were to be his first mates. Riddle was often criticized for the mares he allowed to be bred to Man o'War, but in retrospect, this seems to be the result of a "sour grapes" attitude rather than actual deficiency in quality. The proof came on the race track, as that first crop produced 3 champions -- the colt American Flag (Belmont, Dwyer, Withers Stakes) and the fillies Florence Nightingale (C.C.A. Oaks) and Maid At Arms (Alabama Stakes, Pimlico Oaks), all of which dominated the 3-year-old division of 1925. American Flag Florence Nightingale Bateau was Champion 3 year old filly American Flag (out of *Lady Comfey by Roi Herode) bore a striking resemblence to his sire, and retired to stud alongside him at Faraway Farm. He proved a successful sire despite limited opportunities, getting 16 stakes winners led by the champion 2-year-old filly Nellie Flag, who became a top broodmare for Calumet Farm (dam of champion Mar-Kell, Kentucky Oaks winner Nellie L., and Sunshine Nell) and established an important female line that later produced Forego, Bold Forbes, and Saratoga Six. American Flag also sired Gusto (Jockey Club Gold Cup), Gay Dalton, Flag Pole, and Greek Flag. Besides Nellie Flag, several of his daughters left a mark, particularly Lady Glory, whose daughter Raise You produced the top sire Raise A Native. Man o'War's second crop produced one of his greatest runners, the glorious golden chestnut Crusader (1923 out of Star Fancy by *Star Shoot) won the Belmont Stakes, Jockey Club Gold Cup, and Suburban Handicap at 3 and was considered one of the best of his era. As a sire, Crusader was a serious disappointment, and only appears in modern pedigrees through his daughter Heatherland (dam of stakes winner and producer Heather Time, by Time Maker). Another from the 1923 crop was the champion 3-year-old filly Edith Cavell (out of The Nurse by Yankee), who won the C.C.A. Oaks, Latonia Oaks and Pimlico Cup (against males), and won a second Pimlico Cup at the age of 5. The 1923 crop also included the Travers Stakes winner Mars (out of Christmas Star by *Star Shoot). The 1924 crop produced the champion 2-year-old and Futurity winner Scapa Flow. With only 3 crops racing, Man o'War was America's Leading Sire in 1926. He continued to sire a batallion of good runners, although dominated by classic level performers and later-maturing handicappers in the tradition of his sire Fair Play. The outstanding racemare Bateau (1925) was a top 2-year-old, won the C.C.A. Oaks at 3, and matured into one of the best handicappers, male or female, in the country, winning the Suburban Handicap and Whitney Stakes at 4. Clyde Van Dusan (1926), won the Kentucky Derby in 1929. Champion Steeplechaser Battleship (1927) carried Man o'War's reputation to England, where he won the Grand National Steeplechase at the age of 7, and became a successful sire of steeplechasers in his own right. Man o'War also sired Blockade (1929), the three-time winner of the grueling four-mile Maryland Hunt Cup. War Admiral Hard Tack War Relic Valkyr, winner of 9 races, and dam of Vagrancy, Vicar, Vicaress and Hypnotic, all stakes winners. Speed Boat, dam of Level Best War Hero (1929) won the Travers and Saratoga Cup. War Glory (1930) won the Lawrence Realization and Dwyer Stakes. He was a useful sire and left 2 daughters to continue his bloodline, both of which produced outstanding runners to the cover of Determine. Gloire Fille was the dam of champion 2-year-old and good sire Warfare (1957), while War Whisk foaled the 1962 Kentucky Derby winner Decidedly. Man o'War's stud record began to tail off in the mid-1930s, coincident with the rising favor of expensive imported stallions such as *Sir Gallahad III, *Sickle, and *St. Germans. He experienced a revival with the appearance of his brilliant champion War Admiral, who won the Triple Crown of 1937 and was second only to kinsman Seabiscuit (sired by Man o'War's son Hard Tack) as a handicap star in 1938. War Admiral became a very good sire himself, getting the filly Busher, 1945 Horse of the Year, the same season he was America's Leading Sire. War Admiral also sired the champion 2-year-old colt Blue Peter, the outstanding handicap mares Searching and Busanda, as well as Mr. Busher, Navy Page, Cold Command, and Admiral Vee. A few sons of War Admiral were decent sires, Mr. Busher in particular, but his daughters became gold mines, and he was a leading broodmare sire for many years, getting the dams of Buckpasser, Hoist the Flag, Affectionately, Never Say Die, Jet Action, and many, many more. Man o'War's inbred son War Relic appeared in 1941, and beat the 3-year-old champion Whirlaway in the Narragansett Special, and older horses in the Massachusetts Handicap that season. Of all the sons of Man o'War, War Relic became the best stallion and the primary male-line link for his sireline to the future. War Relic specialized in precocious juveniles, like champion Battlefield, Relic, and Missile. All 3 became useful sires, especially Relic, who went to France and sired the sprinters Buisson Ardent and his brother Silver Shark, also Venture VII, Texana, Relance (dam of Relko), El Relicario (dam's sire of Caro), Mystic II (a top sire of steeplechasers), and the American runner and sire Olden Times. War Relic's most influential son, Intent, was a classy stakes winner who won the San Juan Capistrano Handicap twice. Intent sired the sprinter/miler Intentionally, who became an important foundation sire for the Florida industry, getting the good grass horse Tentam, and the middle distance runner In Reality, who took over from his sire in Florida. In Reality became an outstanding sire, with the top fillies Desert Vixen and Truly Bound, and good colts Known Fact (2,000 Guineas), Proper Reality, Smile, and Believe It. In Reality was also a good sire of sires, with the success of Valid Appeal, Relaunch, Known Fact, and Believe It, his most influential sons. Man o'War's daughters became tremendous broodmares in their own right. They produced outstanding runners such as Vagrancy, Level Best, Pavot, High Fleet, Blue Swords, Dawn Play, War Plumage, Columbiana, Mata Hari, Bushranger, Dauber, and many more. He nicked particularly well with many of the imported sirelines, especially Hyperion's sons *Heliopolis, *Alibhai, and *Khaled, as well as *Sir Gallahad III, Count Fleet, Equipoise and Blue Larkspur. Man o'War was retired from stud service due to a heart condition a few years before his death in 1947. He died on November 1 of that year as a result of a heart attack, at the age of 30, and the news shocked the nation. His body was embalmed and placed in an oak coffin, where he lay in state for visitors. He was buried a few days later in a public radio broadcast. Riddle had set aside ground at Faraway Farm for Man o'War's grave and those of some of his best offspring, and had a lifesize bronze statue of the great horse erected over the grave. This ground was given as a park to the city of Lexington upon Riddle's death. In the early 1970s, the graves and statue were moved to the newly developed Kentucky Horse Park, where they remain today. The statue is a good likeness of the great stallion, who was a large (16.2h.), big boned individual with great substance and presence. Man o'War was a vibrant red chestnut with a rounded star and faint stripe on his face, which was slightly roman in profile. Like his sire, he carried the Bend Or spots coming through Fair Play's dam, *Fairy Gold (by Bend Or). Man o'War's influence on the breed was profound, and although his male line barely survives through small, dark descendants of In Reality and Relic, his legend as a racehorse and sire will live on.
Mahubah is an Arabic Greeting which Mrs. Blmont heard while visiting Tunis, Tunisa. More correctly spelled Marhubah the greeting means "May good things be with you always." Mahubah raced 5 times with one win as August BelmontII believed lightly raced mares made the best dams. Reading Racing forms is so boring. It is just a list of cold data. Racing is not cold data. It did not grow up in a vacuum. It is life with flesh and blood people running it.
I don't recall what it means just off hand but it is pronounced with the emphasis on the second syllable where as Marhuba has it on the first. It seems to me that it had some gender significance, or not. I'll check.
Exceller Fund Action - Ferdinand and Dubai Millennium
by Yo Tambien
Okay - these aren't directly related to Man o' War, unless you consider that The Exceller Fund has rescued horses that carry the blood of Man o'War.
Announcing two new Exceller Fund auctions:
Ferdinand - Exclusive 8x10 photo:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5116483940
The Exceller Fund presents this exclusive 8x10 photo of Ferdinand taken while he was at Claiborne Farm. As you may have read, Ferdinand was later sent overseas as a stallion prospect, but was slaughtered sometime in 2002 when he was no longer valued at stud. It is shocking to think that a horse that won the Kentucky Derby and the Breeders Cup Classic and was named the 1987 Horse of the Year could sink to such obscurity and face such an undignified end. However, what happened to Ferdinand happens almost every day to racehorses in North America. Slaughter houses in Texas, Illinios, and Canada take in Thoroughbreds as well as many other breeds of horses for slaughter. The meat is then shipped overseas for human consumption even though many horses receive medications within weeks or days of being slaughtered.
This photo shows Ferdinand in an obviously happier time. The proceeds from this auction will help The Exceller Fund keep those happier times for other horses. The horse pictured to the right in our auction is a 3 year old filly who was purchased by The Exceller Fund from a "Kill Pen" in the shape that you see. She was pulled up lame in her last race, and shortly thereafter wound up in the Kill Pen after at least one harrowing adventure with wire fencing. We sent her to an equine clinic to treat her wounds and injuries, but the vet bills can get expensive, so we are raising money to pay for her bills. The good news is the vets are optimistic that she will make a full recovery to be a ridable horse.
It is ironic that Ferdinand shared so much with Exceller, the horse who inspired The Exceller Fund. Both horses were trained by the late Charlie Whittingham and ridden by the late Bill Shoemaker. Both Whittingham and Shoemaker were legends in horse racing, and Exceller's victory over Seattle Slew, and Ferdinand's Kentucky Derby win stand as high points in their careers. If anything positive can be made of the sad endings of these horses, it is that awareness is building on how to properly provide for Thoroughbreds when their racing or breeding careers are over. Your winning bid will help make another success in turning these stories into something positive.
Special Promotional Set of Dubai Millennium
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5116497045
The Exceller Fund presents this auction of memorable items featuring Dubai Millennium. Dubai Millennium was an excellent son of Seeking the Gold and considered by many to be among the best of all time. He retired with nine victories from ten starts, and his memorable performances included The Queen Elizabeth II Stakes, the Prix Jacques Le Marois, the Dubai World Cup (setting a course record of 1:59.5), and the Prince Of Wales Stakes.
Dubai Millennium suffered a fracture in his hind leg during a work out and was retired to stud as a 4 year old. Sadly, the stallion succombed to grass sickness as a 5 year old and he never finished his first year at stud. As his first and only offspring are now beginning to race, it has become apparent that a breeding legacy was lost with his early death.
This auction features a special Gift Boxed collection that was sent by the Godolphin Stable to celebrate Dubai Millennium. The items include a 2001 Desk Calendar featuring the many runners of the Godolphin Stable as well as important racing and sale dates worldwide. The boxed set includes an exclusive video of Dubai Millennium entitled No Horse like this horse. Also included is a massive Stallion catelog of the Darley Stud for 2001.
This is a stallion catelog like no other featuring glossy photos of many of the stallions on the Darly Stud roster. There is a special section featuring Dubai Millennium with pages that fold out into 15 x 9 photos and then again into 15x18 photos of this special stallion.
Stallions featured in this catelog include:
Timber Country
Bachir
Cape Cross
Daylami
Diktat
Dubai Millennium
Fly To The Stars
Halling
In The Wings
Kabool
King's Best
Lend A Hand
Lord of Men
Lujain
Machiavellian
Mark of Esteem
Sagamix
Saratoga Springs
Singspiel
Chief Seattle
Comeonmom
Elusive Quality
Quiet American
Wordly Manner
It was not an easy decision to put this unique collection up for auction. But we need to raise money to help pay for vet expenses for our horses including the 3 year old filly whose picture is at the top right of this auction. While many horses retire from racing to a secure life at stud, the future is not so bright for many horses when their racing days are over. And even some horses do not fare well if they are not valued at stud as some stallions, most notably Exceller and Ferdinand, met a grisly death despite all they achieved on the racetrack. More commonly, some older broodmares who can no longer produce are sent to auction and then onto the slaughterhouse. The Exceller Fund currently supports 6 older mares who were no longer valued in the breeding shed.
Your winning bid will help The Exceller Fund provide a Future Beyond the Finish Line.sm The winning bidder will also receive an Exceller Fund Auction Certificate along with the auction items.
While surfing channels this A.M. I happened on "The Kentuckian" on TCM. The last time this came up it was followed by a movie short on Kentucky and so it was this time. The last minute or two of this short was filmed at Faraway Farm and so there was a nice shot of Mow with Harbut.
Did any of you happen to catch it?
Anyway, I'm going to try to post it somewhere and this is where one of you might be able to help. I'm thinking this would be a 20 meg file edited. I have no where to upload and I'm not sure AVI is the best way to do it. So how about some suggestions.
I have just visited Saratoga and there I saw Sam Riddle`s home. It is at 125 Union Avenue one block from the National Racing Museum. Gosh it is big! It appears 70 ft wide and 150 long. It is 3 stories high. At least 25,000 square ft in which to live and a side home too is on the grounds. It is columned and green in color. Built in 1870 and Riddle`s home when he raced MOW. This is why MOW raced 6 of his 21 races at Saratoga. It is near Riddle`s fine home. Sam Riddle often showed his own home made films of MOW races to his friends in this home. Riddle had many home made movies of MOW not shown to the public. They must be lost in history now. Pre 1948 films are made of silver nitrate and were combustable. Those films decay in time. Riddle may not have preserved them.
One would have to ask Mr. Riddle why he did not race MOW against older horses? I do not know. But considering the RARE form MOW was in between July 10, 1920 and the end of Aug. 1920 MOW would have been successful against Sir Barton and Exterminator on Aug 2, 1920. MOW ran a head and head pace duel with J.P.Grier in the Dwyer beaking the 6 fl track record and the world record for 1 1/8 miles. This up front battle with J.P. Grier should have cost MOW 10 or 20 legnths. It is as fine a "cracker" as I have found in either British or American racing history. The next day Aug. 3,1920 MOW works out 9 fl in the world record time.
Mr Riddle had the Travers Stakes in mind.
Why did he retire MOW at 3. That is Mr. Riddle`s choice.
I think MOW was the biggest draw for racing. At the Travers in 1920 the infield was open for the first time to accommodate 5000 extra fans that MOW drew into the track.
In Sept 1919 at the Belmont Futurity the crowd was 20,000 or more. MOW was the last horse to win both the Futurity and the Realization Stakes.
They had come to see the "MAN". New York Times that day called MOW The Ty Cobb of horse racing. He was packing in the fans. Racing was 6 yrs removed from a national ban. New Jersey still did not re open it``s race tracks nor did California. NJ was dark in racing from 1890 untill 1946.
I believe Mr Riddle would have loved to race MOW AS A 4 YR OLD. WHY HE DID NOT WAS HIS BUSINESS.
I have been a hard core fan of Man O War for about 4 years now. He is most undoughtably the greatest race horse that ever lived. Why didn't Mr. Riddle race Man O War past three? I think the reason for this dicision was because at three Man O War was already being asked to carry 130 or even 131 in his races. Mr. riddle must have know what a valuble stud prospect this horse would have made and wanted to retire him, to the dismay to the public, early but still undamaged. He probobly didn't want to see such a great horse like Man O War asked to carry such unheard of weights later on that would slowly break him down phisicly and mentaly. No, as hard as it is to except, Mr. Riddle made the right dicision in the early retirement Man O War. Many trainers wouldn't race their horses against Man O War towards the end of his career. Trainers were afraid (and rightfully so) that Man O War would make their colts look like they were in a whole other division-a seperate class. Man O War ended his racing career with his pride, health, and record intacked to live out the rest of his days a champion. May people always think Man O War the unvincible horse that scared away even the most classy compitition; the greatest race horse the turf has ever seen.
For that matter, two year old racing was handicapped in those days. SEVENTEEN DAYS after Man o' War ran his first race as a two year old, he carried 130 pounds postward for the first time. Can you imagine the fuss we'd hear if a racing secretary tried to do that today? Modern handicap horses rarely see 128 pounds, let alone 130 as a baby. Of his 21 races, Man o’ War carried 130 pounds OR MORE in nine of them, including the race he lost as a two year-old by half a length to Upset, who was carrying 115 pounds.
(By the way, since I'm lazy and the two threads are related, I'm going to respond to E-man's questions about Riddle's decisions here too.)
I believe that the 138 pound impost in Man o' War's last three-year-olds-only race hints rather strongly that Walter Vosburgh, the racing handicaper, WOULD have imposed 140-150 pounds on a regular basis had Man o' War run as a four year old. (Note: Big Red gave the other three contestants between 24-30 pounds and still won easing up.)
According to the Daily Racing Form chart for 1920, the Jockey Club Stakes (now the Jockey Club Gold Cup) WAS open to three year olds AND UP. No older horses showed up. Hmm. Wonder why not? Exterminator was on the grounds. In fact, he won four days later by a head over Damask. Damask was outgunned by 13 lengths in the Jockey Club Stakes.
Kilmer and Exterminator WERE invited to take part in the same match race as Sir Barton and Man o' War. Willis Sharp Kilmer backed out because he wanted the race set at a shorter distance than the other two owners.
Riddle said he strongly considered racing Man o' War in England as a four year old, but decided he'd prefer to put the horse to stud than spend valuable time to acclimate Man o' War.
I don't think Riddle was conservative with Red's racing schedule to keep stud fees high. Man o' War wasn't bred to many "outside" mares, just mares owned by Riddle, and most of those outside mares belonged to friends of the Riddles.
My conclusion is that although Riddle WAS a fairly conservative owner, the owners of older horses, even championship caliber horses, weren't particularly eager to face Man o' War either.
"According to the Daily Racing Form chart for 1920, the Jockey Club Stakes (now the Jockey Club Gold Cup) WAS open to three year olds AND UP. No older horses showed up. Hmm. Wonder why not? Exterminator was on the grounds. In fact, he won four days later by a head over Damask. Damask was outgunned by 13 lengths in the Jockey Club Stakes.
Kilmer and Exterminator WERE invited to take part in the same match race as Sir Barton and Man o' War. Willis Sharp Kilmer backed out because he wanted the race set at a shorter distance than the other two owners."
THANK YOU for bringing up the former. This is always overlooked, and it is assumed MOW was never set to face any elders except Sir Barton (who, BTW, was not "washed up" having had a remarkable last couple months). The Jockey Club Stakes (JCGC ;-)) was an open race - but no elders even entered.
The only possible explanation is that it was a new race; only Purchase had run it in 1919, all alone. Maybe it just didn't have the prestige and the purse (altho it looked pretty average to me on the latter count).
As for the latter - Kilmer/Exterminator wanted a LONGER distance than the others. Which I think rather funny, since MOW got scarier as the distance grew.
"As for the latter - Kilmer/Exterminator wanted a LONGER distance than the others. Which I think rather funny, since MOW got scarier as the distance grew."
You're right as rain, Rebel. That's what I get for relying on my memory (such as it is) rather than my notes! Anyway, our point is the same: it was Kilmer who backed out of that confrontation, not Riddle.
Still attaching too much importance to the age factor.
There are many conditions under which a 3 yr old is to be preferred to older horses.
On condition is MSW 3yr old and Up. In these races 3 yr olds beat older horses 74-76% of the time. The 4 yr old has had another year in which to lose all of his races.
Another condition is in NW1, NW2, NW 3, after 4 months into the year. Potential 3 yr old stars will race against 4 yr olds who are barely out of the maiden catageory.
Age and gender both are very weak handicapping points. The ability and conditioning of the horses are more important.
If some of y'all are wondering about the orange links that show up in your posts, I went to Network 54 (where my account for this board is) and they said it's a new form of advertising, to keep Network 54 free. There are a number of members of Network 54 who are not happy with this as well as y'all but I just wanted to let y'all know that it's okay. If y'all want to know more about the orange links and what was said about them, go to http://www.network54.com/Forum/44985 and click on the message link "Orange words" and y'all can read about it.
Why did Sam Riddle race Man O'War so conservatively?
1) Refused to race him as a 4-yr-old.
There are two stories here. One is that MOW had strained or bowed a tendon before his match with Sir Barton. Although he was still considered fit enough to run (and win) against Sir B., Riddle and trainer Louis Feustel didn't want to take a chance of further injury. If this is true, fair enough, they probably made the right decision. The other story is that Riddle claims he was told by the NY racing secretary that he would give MOW the highest weights ever assigned to a horse. Really? More weight than, say, Roseben, who won 3 times while carrying 147lbs, and once finished second under 150lbs? I sense something smelly about that....
2) Refused to let him face older horses as a 3-yr-old, except for Sir Barton.
In my opinion, facing older horses is the ultimate challenge for a 3-yr-old. The average 4-yr-old is bigger, stronger, and faster than the average 3-yr-old. It is more experienced, and so can react better to the jockey's commands and/or changing race conditions. It may even try to dominate or intimidate the younger horse.
After the Dwyer it should have been obvious that MOW was by far the best of his generation. Having nothing more to prove, Riddle should have been willing to move MOW up in class to the handicap division. Instead, MOW continued to beat up on horses that he had already outclassed. Only at the end of the season did Riddle agree to the match race. True, Sir B. was the previous year's champion and had run well as a 4-yr-old. But by the time of the match race he was no longer at his peak due to sore hooves, and MOW could beat him easily. But MOW never faced a *fit* Sir Barton, or the other great handicap champion, Exterminator, or any other good older horses like Billy Kelly, Mad Hatter, or The Porter. In fact, Riddle actively avoided letting MOW face Exterminator - he scratched him from the Saratoga Cup when "Old Bones" was entered at the last minute, and refused to consider a match race later in the year.
In my opinion, Sam Riddle approached racing not like a sportsman, but as a businessman. He had one big asset: a seemingly invincible Man O'War. He wasn't going to risk that asset. Owning MOW gained Riddle respect and prestige within the racing community in which he was a relative newcomer. MOW would command high stud fees after his retirement, and his foals bred by Riddle himself would command high prices at auction.
So that asset had to be protected at all costs. Anything that put MOW's invincible aura at risk - facing mature horses, racing at 4yrs - was to be avoided. A loss - a failure - would diminish that aura, and put those future high stud fees and auction prices, and Riddle's new-found status, at risk.
A sportsman would have said "Let's see what Big Red can really do". As a businessmen, I believe Riddle said "Let's protect the value of this asset".
Please note that *none* of the above is intended as a criticism of Man O'War. I believe that, if given the chance, he would have succeeded against mature competiton (as did, say, Secretariat) and/or excelled as a 4-yr-old (like Seattle Slew or Dr. Fager). But he never got the chance - and we can thank Sam Riddle for that.
Riddle once said "He's just a horse." He seemed not to understand the publics reactions. Example, MOW paddock was roadside. I have never found any solid evidence but much of MOWs management says there was a lot of barn wagering, owner, trainer, stable hands, etc.
But human behavior will always be what it is. These things are not unique.
Riddle's refusal to sell MOW was an example of how he looked at MOW, as a possesion and an object. He owned something nobody else had.
It was getting tough to find opponnents for MOW by June 1920. In that year`s Belmont only the Candy King G.W. Loft would enter a horse against MOW. Doonnacona was the only opponnent and MOW left him 20 lengths up the track and set a world standart for 1 3/8 miles in 2:14 1/5. Next at Jamaica Pk only R.T. Wilson`s Yellow Hand was entered. MOW went off at the shortest odds ever in America. 1-100.
By now Jimmy Rowe hated MOW and had "a burning determination to topple from his pedestal the colt which he had come to hate with unremitting intensity"
Jimmy Rowe a leading jockey in "Heat Racing Days 1871 to 1873. And a leading trainer for almost 50 yrs when MOW arrived, Rowe had trained such greats as Hindoo, Regret, Colin and now Riddle a new comer with only one good horse MOW was beating him time and again.
On July 10, 1920 the Dwyer (named for Rowes bosses in 1880`s Phil and Mike Dwyer) Rowe decided to run a "cracker" at MOW which means he would vie with MOW for the early lead in an effort to tire MOW enough to lose the race. They ran the 6 fl in 1:09 3/5 (FASTER THAN THE TRACK RECORD AT 6FL) Clem Mcarthy a writer for the DRF (later NBC announcer who called Sea Biscuit War Admiral race) was at a loss for words when MOW was headed by JP Grier at 3/16 pole. :he`s got his-" cried Clem. But MOW under the whip responded and won by 1 1/2. Harry Whitney lept from his box seat and ran to Sam Riddle to congratulate him. Final time 1:49 1/5 a world standard. MOW set this world mark in head and head fighting with the top 3 yr old of the day ,. Amazing!!
MOW went to join Saratoga in progress for his next start. On AUG 2 1920 Sir Barton beat Exterminator in the Saratoga Handicap in 2:01 4/5 (AMERICAN RECORD) . The atmosphere was electric and from Aug 2 the match race with Sir Barton was being called for. ON Aug 3,1920 MOW worked out 9 fl in 1:49 1/5 equalling his newly set world mark.
No 4 yr old in 1920 was good enough to stay with MOW
A good 4 yr old only beats a good 3 yr old if they are about equal in ability. If not 3 yr olds beat older horses all the time.
It WAS a world record. I haven't seen any source that says "ONLY an American record". There are many that simply state "an American record". Semantics makes a big difference; a world record is always an American record (when set in America) so strictly speaking there's nothing inaccurate about such statements/listings. Not inaccurate, but INCOMPLETE, not giving the full story.
This is problematic in all of racing annals. They'll frequently only note by "track record" or some lower tier when indeed it is much greater in scope. I've seen Sec's record "understated" the same way - all higher records called "only" American records, when in fact some are world records.
In short, you can't trust exactly how good a time record is until you find all the evidence. A track record could be a full-blown world record. Until DRF publishes the highest-level time record category on its PPs, we'll be confused by all this forever.
"No 4 yr old in 1920 was good enough to stay with MOW"
Then why did Riddle refuse to race MOW against Exterminator, or any other 4-yr-old until Sir Barton was past his prime?
"A good 4 yr old only beats a good 3 yr old if they are about equal in ability."
Which is why I said "*average* 4-yr-old" and "*average* 3-yr-old". I could just as easily written "All other things being equal, a 4-yr-old will beat a 3-yr-old". For example, Seattle Slew at 4 beat Affirmed at 3. The next year, Affirmed at 4 beat Spectacular Bid at 3. All three horses were at approximately the same talent/class level - and the pattern held true. It takes an extraordinary 3-yr-old to break the pattern (eg. Secretariat, Citation).
Laughable! I was at Belmont Pk Sept 16, 1978 when Slew beat Affirmed and again in 1979 when Affirmed beat Spec Bid. The DRF of each day said the biggest difference MAY be in their ages. Maybe Slew was MORE HORSE PERIOD. And Maybe AFFIRMED was MORE HORSE THAN THE BID! Mac Miller hall of fame trainer said on these dates by OCT of your 3 yr old season you are pretty daarn close to being 4 yrs old. Thousands of races have been averaged and a good 4yr old is only 1 lenght better in a route than a 3yr old by Sept Oct. Slew and Affirmed won by MORE than 1 legnth. I think they were just more horse than their opps. I have been handicapping races since 1964.
No good. Bid made earlier challanges to Affirmed at the 3/4 at the mile and after he could not gain on Affirmed. Track announcer said it plainy TWICE Bid can get no closer the 1 1/4 legnths. Only when race was out of reach did Bid get to 3/4 legnth. Race was run at 1 1/2 miles not only the finish! There should only be a 1/4 length difference at each POC. Bid made a serious run early on and Afirmed pulled away at will.
Age difference would only account for 1/4 legnth at each POC. Bid ran hard at Affirmed and could get no closer than 1/14. I still can hear the announcer saying "Bid can get no closer" Affirmed toying with him all the way. I was there "Charlie".
THAT IS THE STRETCH CALL NOT THE FIRST RUNNING POSISITION NOR THE SECOND CALL EITHER CHARLIE I SAID THE FIRST 2 POINTS OF CALL 6 FL AND ONE MILE. AFFIRMED TOTALLY PLAYED WITH SPEC BID IN THE FIRST MILE OF THAT RACE. BID RAN AT HIM AND AFFIRMED PULLED OFF AT WILL.THE BID ONLY CLOSED WHEN IT WAS OUT OF REACH. EVEN FROM THE STRETCH ONLY 1/8 FROM THE FINISH.BID WAS OUT OF IT CHARLIE LISTEN TO A TAPE OF THAT DAY IF U CAN FIND IT! AFFIRMED RAN A 128 BEYER THAT DAY BEST OF HIS LIFE. HE COULD GET LOOSE ON THE LEAD WITH THE BID. BID NOT ENOUGH EARLY SPEED TO TOY WITH AFFIRMED. ONLY 1/5 SEC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TOP 3 YR OLD AND A TOP 4 YR OLD IN OCT IN A ROUTE. IN A SPRINT THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN LATE OCT. THAT 1/5 SO SLIGHT AN EDGE IT CAN BE LOST IN 2 BLINKS OF AN EYE. AFFIRMED IS THE CLASSIER OF THE TWO. 3 MONTHS AFTER BID WOULD SET THE WORLD MARK FOR 1/14 MILES AT SA 157:4 YET HE DID NOT GROW A YEAR`S WORTH IN 3 MONTHS. HE WAS FULLY GROWN WHEN HE LOST TO AFFIRMED. AFFIRMED A GOOD CASE OF A HORSE WITH NO WORLD RECORDS DEFEATING ANOTHER GREAT WHO DID SET A WORLD MARK. POSSIBLY SAYING WORLD RECORDS DOES NOT MEAN ONE GREAT CAN BEAT ANOTHER GREAT WITHOUT ONE.
My intention in posting wasn't to argue that Spectacular Bid could have beaten Affirmed, or to take either side in the 3yo vs. 4yo debate.
I merely pointed out that contrary to your statement that Affirmed WON by more than 1 length, the chart says he won by 3/4 length. I think anyone reading your original statement would interpret it to mean that Affirmed finished more than 1 length ahead of the Bid.
Now you're changing your statement to say that Affirmed led by more than 1 length at some point in the race, and that the Bid never was able to close the gap on Affirmed.
One can not say everything in a short post. I was Thinking at any point in the race Affirmed had the control over Bid. I am expressing myself poorly I apologize.
However it did silence G Grover Delp who bragged so that the Bid was the "best" horse ever to look through a bridle. He had predicted Bid would beat Affirmed by 5 or more. Did not happen.
"Mac Miller hall of fame trainer said on these dates by OCT of your 3 yr old season you are pretty daarn close to being 4 yrs old."
"pretty darn close" does not equate to "same as".
"Thousands of races have been averaged and a good 4yr old is only 1 lenght better in a route than a 3yr old by Sept Oct."
A length is still a winning margin, last I heard :-)
Another example I could cite is 3-yr-old Alysheba (#42 in The Bloodhorse's 20th century poll) getting beaten by 4-yr-old Ferdinand (didn't even make the cut on that poll) in the 1987 Breeder's Cup Classic. The following year, when they were both mature (4 and 5, respectively), Alysheba beat Ferdinand twice.
*None of which addresses my original point,* which is that Sam Riddle actively avoided racing Man O'War against mature horses until his very last race, when he had every opportunity to do so through the summer and early fall of 1920. I've presented my theory as to why: he was a businessman protecting an asset rather than a sportsman looking for a challenge. Does anybody have another explanation?
A legnth is too broad a statement in an average of thousands of horses. Short range discrepencies show up all the time. Many a 3 yr old is better than his four year old counter part. He is lost in an average of 10,000 horses. One length in not a big enough an edge in real world horse races. Buddy Delp did not blame Bid`s loss on the fact Affirmed was 4yr old running at his 3 yr old bid. Laughable!! Racing Secretaries would NOT program races for 3 yr old and up if the 4 yr old had so big an edge! Horseman would not run their horses against older horses if that were a big EDGE for the 4 yr olds. One lenght in Oct or any time is a paper edge only!! One false step one bad jockey decision one extra wide move will dissipate the MYTHICAL one lenght edge. Do not site 4 yr old beating 3 yr olds lol They beat each other always!!! 3 yr old maiden claimers beat 4 yr old maiden claimers all the time. Cheap 3 yr old allowance horses too beat older horses. Age difference is the most FLIMSY handicapping tool there is. If a 3 yr old always runs a Beyer of 120 he WILL BEAT a 4yr old who always runs a Beyer of 115 or so. No matter the time of year. My advice is compare the 3 yr olds Beyer average time with the 4 yr olds Beyers. This will tell you which is the faster horse. Do not use AGE as a MAJOR HANDICAPPING TOOL,. CHECK EACH HORSES BEYERS FIRST>
... No, just a different perspective which you happen to disagree with.
Why were observers so astounded that Citation raced against *and beat* top handicappers (including Armed, the previous Horse of the Year) *early* in his 3-yr-old season - before he won the Triple Crown - *even before he was physically 3-yrs old*?
One more point before I drop the subject: if the difference between 3 and 4 year-olds is so insignificant late in the year, why do 3yr-olds still get a weight-for-age concession at that time?
E-man
Sept 30, 1967 Damascus a 3 yr old and Horse of the Year beat Buckpasser by 10 lengths. Buckpasser a 4yr old who held the world record for 1 mile 1:32 3/5 was outclassed by the 3 yr old. I think it proves the condition and physical ability of the horses is more important than the difference in their ages. I can site mant many cases like this one. FORGETABOUTIT!!
Three year olds get a weight concession as a comprimise.
It has been measured since the days of slavery that one pound extra weight is worth .09 length. So that in Oct of any year a 3 yr old should get enough weight concession to make up one length. That is TEN pounds, but they are given only 5 because owners of the 4 yr olds will refuse to race at 10 lb concessions. Laz Barrera would not run Affirmed with Spectular bid giving 9 lbs away. Three yr old owners will refuse to run at no weight concession. So to get enough horses together to race so the public can have something to bet on weight comprimises are made. It is politics of generating betting handles more than the abilities of different aged horses
Am doubting that betting concerns affected Man o' War's management to any significant degree. Mr. Riddle was known to bet occasionally, but I haven't found any information that he "plunged" on Man o' War. There do seem to be indications of wagering between Riddle and the Jeffordses re: the relative merits of their young horses. Stable hands often try to supplement their very limited income with betting. I ran across one 1920 newspaper article, though, that says Feustel was "not a betting trainer" and was exceptionally open with information about his horses.
Man O War connections were NOT betting people. This sort of thing spreads as wild fire around a race track. It would be well known if they did. Consider those owners and trainers who did bet big and often. Mike Dwyer often bets $20,000 a HEAT in Heat racing days and at times loses $100,000 in one day. His brother Phil Dwyer lost $90,000 in one night at roulette in Saratoga`s Canfield Casino.
Diamond Jim Brady who owned Oiseau bet the entire field against Sysonby in 1905 getting good odds on every other horse in the race. Oiseau was in this race as 2nd bettibg choice at 4-1. Sysonby was turned sideways at the start and lost 100 yrs before he got started. Unlike the Sanford where MOW is reputed to have been sideways at the start, Clear photographic evidence shows Sysonby was indeed sideways at the break. He made up the 100 yards with a big burst of speed. Walter Vosburg upon seeing this said "Too much speed this early he will not last." But Sysonby kept driving to win. Most astounding! All in attendence leaped the fences and swarmed Sysonby and his handlers in the winners circle. It was pandamonium there at Saratoga that day. Mr Canfield who owned the casino never went to the race track. But on this day he was there. Diamond Jim Brady bet big with Canfield on this race.
Great shot of Fair Play. What a magnificent, beautiful animal!
Re. the image labelled "The last photo of Man O'War": are you sure that's him? He doesn't look at all like he does in his other stud portraits - even compared to the colour photo taken 3 days before his death.
It may be my imagination, but doesn't MOW's body look small and pathetic in his casket? I guess that's in comparison to when he was alive and "larger than life".
Thanks,
E-man
Well, so much for all the nonsense from Smarty Jones' trainers and owners about him continuing to race, how he "belongs to the people," how he will prove his greatness, etc, etc. It's just one more example of money coming first- the breeding shed (and its millions) calls.
And as far as his "injuries," I'm no vet (I readily admit that) but look at the kind of BIG injuries horses used to overcome through rest and good ol' fashioned trainers doing their job. Horses like Whirlaway and especially Seabiscuit (maybe the toughest and best horse ever if you look at what HE overcame) were TRULY "People's horses" because they performed magnificently FOR THE PEOPLE over and over and over again- instead of being taken out of training after 7 or 8 races and some bumps and bruises. It's pathetic and sad, and in my humble opinion perhaps the biggest reason why horseracing isn't as popular as it used to be.
I would have loved to see Smarty Jones race once more, but I never want to witness something like Ruffian breaking down again..it hurt too much too see a champion fighting so uselessly. I don't want that to happen to Smarty Jones. But for all we know he could be a "people's horse". At any rate his trainers aren't going to risk it to find out. Too much money and a great horse would be on the line. So, while it's a disappointment, I guess I'm glad that Smarty'll go to stud. Who knows, maybe a son or daughter of his will accheive what he didn't.:)
Harry Payne Whitney after winning the 1915 Kentucky Derby with his blazed faced filly Regret stated in the media coverage of that day "I do not care if Regret ever wins another race. She has won America`s greatest race the Kentucky Derby." If so prominent an owner as HP Whitney
considers the Derby Americas greatest race in 1915, then how can it have been an obscure event prior to 1930. Did not Paul Jones, Upset and Cleopatra run in the 1920 Kentucky Derby? Were these horses not Man O War`s regular opponnents.
... helped rejuvenate the Kentucky Derby. If I'm not mistaken, the most prestigious Eastern horsemen deserted it after Ben Ali Haggin was not satisfied with the betting systems available at the 1886 Derby (won by his colt Ben Ali, a heavy favorite). Haggin badmouthed the Derby to all of his powerful Eastern friends, and for nearly 20 years the Kentucky Derby lost their support.
When Col. Matt Winn convinced H.P. Whitney to bring his brilliant filly Regret to the 1915 Derby, it was a huge step in making the Kentucky Derby widely popular again. Rich Eastern (even international) owners swarmed back. New Yorker John Sanford owned 1916 winner, George Smith; New Yorker Willis Sharpe Kilmer owned 1918 winner, Exterminator; and Canadian citizen and leading U.S. owner J.K.L. Ross owned 1919 winner, Sir Barton. So by the time Man o' War turned three years old, the Kentucky Derby was again more than a regional race.
It also helped that the Derby purse, which was $4,850 from 1896 through 1912 (and only $5,475 in 1913, then $9,125 in 1914) rose to a generous $11,450 in 1915. When Sir Barton won in 1919, the purse was $20,825. In 1930, for Gallant Fox, it was 50,725.
1886 Ben Ali 122 ( Owner Haggin boycotts Ky Db when
he is not allowed to bet. Books
no agreement with CD to accept
bets)
This was in another post on here.
Harry Whitney did not have to listen to Matt Winn. He wanted to go there. A race is only as big as the horses entered in it make it.
Harry`s dad W. Whitney in conjuction with August Belmont II and J.P. Morgan bought the land to bulid Belmont Park.
W. Whitney died untimely in Feb 1904. W. Whithsy had won the Epsom Derby in England, only the second American to do it at the time.
Their plan was to name Belmont PK after the First August Belmont died 1890. W. Whitney was believed to be the one Democrat who could beat Teddy Roosevelt for President in 1904. First August Belmont had been Chairman of the Democratic National Convention in 1868 and afterwards too.
W Whitney preferred England`s style of racing which is clockwise. In deference to his wishes and to honor him after his untimely death Belmont decides to race Clockwise untill 1921.
Harry Whitney is so powerfully connected he did not have to listen to Matt Winn. It was quite an accomplishment for Matt Winn to get HP Whitney to go along with it.
You're quite right that Harry Whitney didn't have to listen to Matt Winn. On the other hand, Winn had been working hard to make the Kentucky Derby attractive, again, to the top Eastern stables. More than doubliing the purse certainly helped.
Also, for several years before 1915 Winn had played a crucial role in bringing Kentucky ("Western") horsemen to support New York racing. He helped multimillionaire James Butler open the Empire City track in Yonkers to Thoroughbred racing -- in defiance of The Jockey Club led by August Belmont -- but then ensured that Empire City followed Jockey Club rules, and gained Belmont's support.
At the same time, Winn helped make New York an attractive destination again for Kentucky horsemen, who had gotten used to staying away from the Big Apple while New York racing was closed. Many "Westerners" who raced at Empire City also found their way to Saratoga and other New York tracks. Good for business.
So, by the time Harry Whitney decided to bring Regret to the Kentucky Derby, Matt Winn had given considerable resources to New York racing. When Regret came West, quite possibly there was some quid pro quo involved. ;>
Harry P. Whitney was most influential in restoring racing in America. By 1911 racing had been banned as illegal gambling in most States in America. New York was hit hard by anti-gambling laws. The Brooklyn Race Tracks, Gravesend, Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay never reopened. If it were not for August Belmont II racing might never have resumed in New York. He lead the fight in Albany to reopen New York`s race tracks. He and 2 other shareholders paid Belmont Park`s debt of $120,000 in 1913 so it could reopen. New York State could not survive in racing by itself. It needed other States to prosper in racing as well. This is why Harry P. Whitney agrees to send Regret to Kentucky, to benefit all of racing. Regret won 9 of 11 races with one second. She never lost to a filly. At 2 she was unbeaten winning The Sanford, The Saratoga Special and The Hopeful.
With racing stopped in America Harry P. Whitney races over here in England in 1911 and 1912. He had purchased from J Joyner both Wisk Broom II and his sire Broomstick.
H P Whitney won 30 races here in England with Wisk Broom II and others during the 1912 season. HP Whitney was a champion Polo player as well. He and his team of four defeated us British for the Championship in 1909, 1911 and 1913.
With racing resumed in New York in 1913 HP Whitney ships his horses back to America.
He runs Wisk Broom II on Decoration Day May 30, 1913 in Belmont Park`s Metropolitan Mile. To help racing get started again HP Whitney tells the Pinkertons at Belmont to let everyone into the track. HP Whitney will pay for everyone’s admission to the track. 10,000 fans took advantage of this offer. Wisk Broom II won the Met Mile that day . The fans were cheering vociferously and The New York Times called it the loudest ovation in the history of racing. Wisk Broom II went on to sweep the NY Handicap Triple at age 6 in 1913. He carried 139 in the Brooklyn. It was the most weight ever in an American Handicap Race.
Tomorrow will be the 77th running of the Whitney at Saratoga.The WHITNEY Handicap is named for the family which had so much to do with American racing in general, and Saratoga in particular. A handicap for three year olds and up, The WHITNEY is not very old in comparison to some of the other stakes at Saratoga. It did not start until l928, a year in which The Travers was sixty four years old and The Alabama fifty six, but throughout its history it has compiled an impressive list of winners, including several Eclipse Award champions. War Admiral, Challedon, Counterpoint, Tom Fool, Kelso, and Dr. Fager have been the national champions of all divisions; Discovery, Stymie, Dedicate, Devil Diver, Slew o' Gold, and Victory Gallop were all older champions, and Key To The Mint was a three year old champion.
I like Perfect Drift with Pat Day up for tomorrow`s renewal.
Smarty Jones was taken out of training a little more than one week ago with what at the time was described as a bruised hoof. In the meantime, Smarty Jones has gone to a nearby clinic, where more significant problems apparently were discovered. Smarty Jones will be retired. The announcement will be made public today at 3PM Easter Time.
I took new photos of the memorial statue, and all of the "reading material" around the memorial. I also got photos of the poem. I should have them done by the end of the week. Also, I have photos of Cigar, Da Hoss, and the new Secretariat statue, along with countless others.
Hi My name is Kayla. I just wanted to say that I love this site because I mostly LOVE LOVE LOVE Man O' War! He was definately the best racehorse there ever was!! I just went to a racetrack not long ago for the first time and I loved it!! I love to read about racehorse stories. Man O' War and Seabiscuits were my favorite! Thanks for letting me post a message! LOVE THE SITE!!
We know about Man O War here too. He is a favorite of mine. I have many notes on him. Often wondered about the size of his stride. It seems almost impossible for a horse 16 hands to get a 30 ft stride. He would have to do a terrible leg split to get that. Longest stride I have heard of for American horses is 26 ft for a leaping jump start and 25ft 6 in on the run. This horse was Longfellow c. 1846.
I have notations from American Press that on the day Man O War raced against Hoodwink the track attendants measured his stride for the first and only official time.
It was 25ft from a leaping start to 24 ft 8 in while running. It was measured by his foot prints in the track that day. 25 ft is more in keeping with reality for a 16 hands horse.
Opps I forgot Longfellow raced in 1870 71 72. He was almost 17 hands and named by Harper for the long legs he had. 26 ft stride. A son of Lexington he was able to beat Pilgrim, Harry Bassett, Preakness(The Md Stks named for this horse) and many others. In Longfellow`s last start he twisted an ankle on the way to the post. He lost only by a legnth to Harry Bassett. Harry Bassett was ridden by James Rowe this date July 16, 1872. James Rowe would train John P. Grier 48 yrs later and run him against Man O War.
Eclipse foaled in 1764 is my choice as the top Arabian Stallion. Bred by the Duke of Cumberland and foaled during a total eclipse of the sun Eclipse becomes the Star of 18th Century English Racing. Sold to Dennis O`Kelly, an Irishman, Eclipse is entered in his first race at age 5. When Mr. O`Kelly is asked about his horse`s chances in his first start O`Kelly answers “Eclipse first, the rest nowhere.” This phrase becomes famous in the annals of British Horse Racing.
The first start for Eclipse was a 4 mile heat. Under heat racing rules a distance pole is placed 120 yards before the finish line. Should any horse finish behind the distance pole he is eliminated from the rest of the races` heats. He loses by default. Eclipse wins the 1st heat and all of his opponents are behind the distance pole. 3 opponents were in the race. That means Eclipse has won by at least 82 lengths! He dose not have to run the next 3 heats.
Eclipse eventually races in 18 Four Mile Heat events. He won all of them. He never even trailed during any one mile dash of any heat in which he ran. He was never whipped either. 26 miles of racing for Eclipse. Always in complete command of his races.
He won the King`s Plate Stakes Race 11 times. He and all entrants in the King`s Plate Stakes are obliged to carry 76 kilograms weight. 76 Kilograms is 167 lbs.
Eclipse often carries 167 lbs in each of 4 one mile dashes and he doses it in one day!
Winning all the time from wire to wire. He has 8 walkovers in his career.
His appearance is unmistakably Arabian. He stands 14 hands ½ inch at the withers 14 hands 2 ½ inches at the loins, his rear slightly higher than his front, and his girth 65 inches. He is dark bay or brown in color and weighs 1000 pounds.
He is even greater as a sire. Eclipse himself foaled 344 Stakes Winning horses. His decedents in Europe include St Simon. Nothing could get near St. Simon on the racecourse, and his offspring won 571 races in Britain alone, where he headed the winning sire's list nine times, a feat never achieved before or since. From St. Simon descends one of the greatest of modern racehorses, the Italian champion Ribot, also unbeaten through a lengthy career and twice successful in the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe.
Eclipse’s Arabian Breeding manifesting itself in his offspring. To say nothing of his influence in American Racing where 90% of today’s Thoroughbreds are his decedents.
Indeed Eclipse has influenced Thoroughbred horse racing. From what little I've heard of him makes me thoroughly impressed with him. I agree with you on how influential he is in Thoroughbred horse racing, especailly since he shows up in the pedigree of American champion Man O' War many times. Whenever I hear people talk about amazing horses a century or 2 (or 3) ago, I sometimes like to try to imagine what it must've been like to watch the fore-fathers of the thoroughbred breed race in heats instead of the racing we are familiar with now.
Do you know if there are any places that still race horses in heats? I'm barely familiar with that type of racing but only in harness racing have I ever heard of it.
In 650 Muhammad started the Muslim Faith. In the Koran the Bible for Islam Arabians are encouraged to breed foals
to use against our enemies. Anyone from another Faith.
Arabian horses were from Africa to start. Line is Equus Agillis. Every warm blooded horse is Equus Agillis. Turks invade much of Europe and dominate from 800 AD untill 1492. They force by sword their Faith on all. They believe dying by the sword for their Faith sure ticket to Heaven. To dominate thier enemies the mix their Arabian Stallion with every breed know to man. Selective Breeding to produce fast strong horses to oppress enemies.They succeeded. And they did for 600 years. Today many fossils unearthed and tested by carbon dating can place these horses in Moor dominated times. Radiology tests show size and stamina they must have had. DNA testing links the Arabian Stallions of the 15th century to every warm blooded breed of horse there was at that time. These tests substantiate that 20th century thoroughbred is 100% alike with the Equus Agillis Arab Breeds.
History has lost this 15th century breed as they were happy to be removed from the Moorish domination in Europe.
Western Europe has forgotten about them.
Americans were busy carving out a country. Arabian horses
in America were quickly mixed with other breeds.
Colonel Byerley, who captured an Arabian Stallion from the Turks at the Battle of Buda, for several years used the horse as his charger, and later when he retired from the Army in 1690, as a stallion.
This is the start of REINVENTING the Arabian Stallion.
British knowing History and the success of Morrish Arabian Stallions decide to breed them AGAIN.
Thomas Darley and Lord Godolphin also contribute to the Foundation Sires.
It is no accident that the British choose Arabian Stallions to start a "Better Breed"
Eclipse foaled in 1764 is a Great Great Grand son of Darley Arabian.
These top Arabians have the benefit of 600 yrs of selective breeding in their veins. Todays thoroughbred does not have 600 yrs in him of choice breeding.
The name "Modern Thoroughbred" is only a British name of todays horses. The British have mixed breeds for only 300 yrs. But the Moors since 650AD. Moors had greater motives it was their Faith.
Todays Thoroughbred is 300 yrs in arrears of the 1450 Arabian Stallion who is physically, historically, biologically 100% alike.
Note with all the pure breeding there was none that turned into a thoroughbred.
By the way, when you mention Africa as the origin of the Arabian horse, are you confusing it with the Barb? They are different breeds.
I've always wondered, what is the physical difference between Barbs and Arabians? I don't know about everyone else, but even though I know the two are separate breeds I always have trouble telling them appart. Does anyone know how and what those differences are? Thanks :-)
both barb and arab are short one vertabrae and are said to possess a great deal of endurance. to me most barbs seem to be roman nosed and are lacking the delicate appearance of the arabs. the arabs, I believe, originated in the east and imported to the arabian peninsula. not sure. the key difference is that the bedouins were fanatical about maintaining purity of the breed. but you'll note that where sires are concerned, pedigrees are lacking. not so with mares because the bedouins kept records according to the female lines. I have not come across any similar record keeping for Barbs which did originate in Africa. best I can do from memory. By the way the other Wentworth book was "Thoroughbred Racing Stock and its Origins"
P.s. Eclipse was the first horse known to have the additional vertibra as do all modern thoroughbreds.
I have know about Black History for Years. No those 19th century horses would be as tough or better than todays version.
They are no different!! Just to much lack of understanding about horses and history here. Columbus in 1492 knew the value of long staying horses. Fine stepping Paso Finos can control a nation. This place is not for me.
What difference about spelling. I am getting out of here. The surface only is the cause of todays faster times. Arabian stallions unchanged since Middle Ages. The Crusades of the 10th century used these Arabian Stallions.
If human breeding controls can't vastly change genetic attributes in a very short time, how do you even explain any breeds of horses since man's existence and interaction w/horses? It's not as if there were even multiple "breeds" when man tried to work w/them (or hunt them); there was just "horse", the species, as far as we know. That's been less than 10k years or so. 10k itself is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of years of evolution even of the horse from eohippus to pliohippus to equus, wherein it's claimed that thus a breed only 200 years old can't be that different from today's.
But that's the difference: it's "breed" vs "horse". 1 is human-controlled/developed, the other baseline is the species which God created.
Sure, you reach a plateau as far as speed (it's just not possible for animals to exceed a certain limit which God built in), and maybe other attributes, but it's highly possible the breed develops logarithmically - being that humans are trying to create the best they can ASAP. There is alot of change/improvement early on, altho it asymptotes. Nonetheless, the asymptote limit is alot higher than even half-way up the initial curve.
Incidentally, *Anonymous*, what had black history to do w/your other comnments here? ;-)
what is *anon*. Horses won`t have chganged in a million years. Every individual is different. No way can a generality be all fast and better. God can make a new breed overnight. No links from eohippus. Saracens mixed Arabians with all breeds they could. Did it from 800 ad to 1450 ad. What was new about England and America doing it in 1800 till now. You sound like you took a month research to learn what I can tell u in my sleep. 800 ad horses already bred as todays speed horses have been bred.
Lady Anne Blunt in 1878 traveled through Arabia disguised mostly as a boy. Her with purpose combined adventure, was to track the foundation stock of the english thoroughbred. Her daughter compiled her mother's notes and wrote what is recognized as the most authoritative work on the decendancy
of the thoroughbred. Many of her conclusions were wrong, but to her credit subsequent printings made corrections. One of the things that caught my attention is that the Arabs determined a purebred by the dam which had to be pure in both parents. Lady Blunt was particularly interested in the origin of the Godolfan arabian
Lady Wentworth, the daughter wrote "The authentic Arabian horse and his descendants : three voices concerning the horses of Arabia : tradition (Nejd, inner East), romantic fable (Islam), the outside world of the West"
Also, it's Godolphin my spelling oft goes awry.
