Hello. This is Big Red's Stable, a board that can be used for both as a chat board and a guestbook. Use it either way but I'd appreciate it if you would leave a message here so people can get together and talk about horses, horseracing, or whatever. Thank-you :-)
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Breeders' Cup
by
Does anyone know if there are any Man O'War descendants in the Breeders' Cup this October?
Officer has another effortless win at Del Mar today! The son of Bertrando is still undefeated!
Tizbud, Tiznow's younger full brother has yet to make his first start. However he looks like a four year old and has one of the smoothest gaits I've ever seen.
I loved this horse from the very beginning. I fell in love the moment I saw him. It's a shame that this injury came up just as he was starting to shine. It's a grim reminder of how fragile these great creatures are.
Here's a MOW decendant with multiple crosses to the big horse plus he's tutored by Baffert. Keep an eye out for this two year old. He's already 3 for 3 and a new record to his credit.
We could be in for a renaissance of MOW descendents! I don't know when Tizbud will make his first start, but this full brother to Tiznow and Budroyale is a HUGE, smooth moving sonuvabuck who has a ground eating stride and looks more like a four year old than a two year old.
Robbins is the trainer and he moves cautiously with his charges, plus Tizbud is very big so he may not start until late this year or early next year. I had the pleasure of watching him in a warm up gallop at Santa Anita about a month ago. Tiznow is also turning in some great works as he gears up to return to the races. I believe his next start may be the Del Mar Breeders Cup on September 2nd.
Officer also looked awesome for each of his starts! This son of Bertrando can absolutely FLY!!! We could be in for a real treat!
i was trying to figure out the lyrics to a song about Man O' War when I stumbled on to your site. If you want to listen to it is called Action Man and is by Widespread Panic. It is on their new album Don't Tell the Band. If you want to just see the (incomplete) lyrics go to www.everydaycompanion.com. that' all.
Me too...Man o' War - Big Red...the Godolphin Barb,
my other love, and Justin'(Morgan)...Grand Ones all.
No time this minute to read all, but have printed out your opener --AND EVEN FROM JUST SCANNING, really like your approach, and i know you are right as per racing and records etc "then and now"!
Studying his history anew and AND getting his chronology down tight has been an old hunger...so glad to be getting to it.
Thanks Beth, for being "here", see you later, so to
speak!
After reading the history of this great horse. It appears beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is the best ever. When you are so far removed from your peers how can it be in doubt. Just as "His Airness" Michael J. Jordan is the greatest basketball player yet, so too is Man of War the greatest race horse. If Dr. J and Jordan were at there prime at the same time then they individually would have been challenged to be better, but that didn't happen. It matters not to me that Man O War's records have been broken, his margin of victory at his time has remained unparalleled for over 80 years.
I have a poster entitled "The Final Thunder" featuring MOW as a racehorse and standing with his stud groom Will Harbut. The artist is Fred Stone and it was from an exhibition at the Kentucky Horse Park in 1991. I actually purchased it at Saratoga a few years back. There is a catalog featuring many of the racing greats but I can't recall the name. I will look through my things and see if I can't find a copy of it.
Hello everyone! I wanted to let you know we have set up a new T-shirt shop to benefit the Exceller Fund. This shop features T-shirts, tank tops, sweatshirts, caps, mousepads, and tote bags featuring a beautiful print of RUFFIAN!!!
I know this is a Man o'War board, but I think most MOW fans will agree that Ruffian was the Man o' War of fillies!!! All good/great fillies since will always be compared to her, and more than likely, all comparisons will come up lacking.
The artwork has been donated to us by a college student who did the prints of Ruffian as a labor of love. I think the designs look wonderful on the shirts and other items, and I encourage you to take a look and TELL YOUR FRIENDS! Right now, CafePress is offering a sale price on the caps, tank tops, and tote bags until August 1st.
Thank you - and I think you'll agree that the Internet image on our website does not do that photo justice. I did that somewhat on purpose so that people couldn't just copy the photo for themselves and have almost as good a copy as we are selling for fundraising.
If you haven't seen this photo, please take a look at the Exceller Fund Gift Shop at http://wwww.excellerfund.org and click on the GiftShop link at the left of the screen.
My father bought that book for me when I was a child, brand new. I have been a fan of his since I was old enough to read. Over 48 yrs ago. BTW I guess you know that book is worth mega bucks now!
Yeah, I got mine for $79.95, which turned into $92 with Shipping and Handling. I've seen it for more money. Mine is a little beat up, there is some tears and everything, but it's definetly readable. I have no Idea if it's a first edition or anything, it doesn't say. I don't think it is cause the ones that were first edition were more money. But I could have just gotten a good deal or something. It's a great book though. I really like it. You're lucky you got it when you did, lol. Seeya!
Hey, do you guys know if your cooper and Treat books are first edition?? What does it say on the copyright stuff? Mine only has one copyright date. I dunno if it is a first edition. I was just curious about that. any info would be much appreciated. Thanks!!! ManoWarfan
I have a book "dealer" by me who specializes in old, out of print books. He says he can probably find the Cooper and Treat book of Man o' War if he knows the publisher and the year it was in print. If anybody could give me this information, I would greatly appreciate it.
Type in Man o' War as the title and then try Cooper as the author. If you don't get any hits, try Treat as the author.
If still no hit, just try Man o' War and be prepared to wade through Walter Farley, C.W. Anderson, and Ed Bowen.
One word of caution - if you type Man o' War as a keyword for the search, you will pull up a lot of books about war ships and science fiction books by William Shatner.
The smaller book stores are notorious for not updating their inventory with the book search engines.
I don't think it's anything deliberate on their part, just probably not something high-up on the "to do" list.
Isn't it funny that the industry that has probably benefited the most from the Internet is USED BOOK sales?
I know a number of used book sellers that have closed up their retail spaces. Instead they keep all of their books in storage, and maintain their inventory list on the internet. They have increased their sales and cut out the expense of renting retail space.
You guys!!!! I'm soo happy!! I just ordered the Man o'War book by Cooper & Treat. I couldn't believe I found it. And, I also ordered the Man o'War photo from Yo Tambien I think. I have a question for yo tambien: I just sent my order in the mail this morning (the 18th) and I live in Minnesota. Do you have an idea on how long it would take for the picture to get here? Thanks!!!! See ya!!!!!!!!!
ManoWarfan
Man o' War fan - you are going to LOVE that Cooper & Treat book! I still remember the chill I felt when my copy arrived after I found it on-line at some bookstore on the east coast.
If you mailed the check today, I might have it by Saturday. If so, I will mail the photo out on Saturday. Mails been running 3 to 5 days, but I will e-mail you when it's been mailed.
Yeah, I'm so excited for my book and the picture! I already picked out a space on my wall LOL. Thanks for the photo info! I can't wait!!!
See ya!!!!!!!!!
ManoWarfan
Hooray, I can post again! And just at the right time! (Although, maybe this will be considered "starting something" because of the nature of my revelation, and thus won't be welcome!)
I've been reading the Beyer books, which have explained a little to me things I didn't pay much attention to. This may be redundant to many here because perhaps you understood all the numbers on PPs already. Now get out your "Champions" book and check something out.
Beyer's book explained the DRF speed ratings to me, finally. Now, I know what he said is true - they are flawed, if only primarily because they use track records rather than averages for time ratings. Anyway, it just occured to me late last night.....how would Man's DRF ratings look? How would they look compared to others?
Man has 8 ratings of 100 or more - corresponding to his speed records. Secretariat likewise has 5 as a result. Man's highest rating is 134 (Law Real), and Sec's highest is 113 (Belmont). Man's next is 132, etc. I only glanced at these since I didn't have any time (late last nite, and early before work), but would it be interesting to average them all?
Beyer himself makes much of "highest BSF ever" for Sec's Belmont at 143. Of course, he hasn't calculated much before that time period. I am seriously curious what Man would be like, on average as well as for that 1 ridiculously record-breaking moment. But then, I fear we'd have to buy up all the chart books at the time to get an idea.
At the back of the Cooper & Treat books it has a record of ALL of Man O'War's races, along with the name of the race, the horses who ran in the race, and DRF's finishing performances, and one or two other pieces of info. Would these help you in making the Beyers speed figures you're working on?
Thanks, but no, you need tons and tons of background info for speed figures. BSFs are based on cumulative number-crunching over great numbers of races based on track, class, etc. That means thousands of races w/time and class data, probably within at least 5 years of Man's career. You'd essentially be comparing him to thousands of other horses in his own era. Of course, I'm just learning how these things are computed, so I would not dare yet try to compute Point Given's numbers myself, much less for horses long since gone!
As a fan of MOW I only have a couple of books
and a print. I've been looking at shops and
on ebay, but I don't know what is a good deal.
Any suggestion about what is the most valuable
or items to beware?
Thanks
The biggest book treasure on Man o'War is "Man O'War" by Page Cooper and Roger L. Treat. It's a VERY rare book but well worth any $$$ you shell out. It's a COMPLETE story of Man O'War's life and at the back of the book is a complete record of all his races, his pedigree going all the way back to the Godolphin Arabian, and a list of ALL his foals! I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone who wants to start a Man O'War collection but be warned, it's very hard to find! I got my copy on ebay in an auction. Good luck on your search!
Thank you for the information. I'll be watching
for this rare book. What about other items?
Anything special or suggestions? I have the poster
print. It was surprising that the Horse Park which
has the MOW statue had little or no items other
than one plate and some postcards.
I'll start checking ebay when I have some extra
cash. Thanks
Deb B
Deb,
Over on the Exceller Fund website, I have a restored rare photo of Man o' War for sale. Proceeds benefit the Exceller Fund to Rescue Horses which is a group that rescues ex-racehorses and other horses from being sold for slaughter.
http://www.excellerfund.org Click on the Giftshop link on the left side and scroll down to see the photo. E-mail me if you're interested.
Also - some other MOW stuff - C.W. Anderson wrote a book entitled Big Red that is quite informative. No photos of MOW, but lots of C.W. Anderson's wonderful drawings.
Step and Go Together is an out-of-print book that has a great chapter of an interview with Louis Fuestel.
Boots and Saddles is another o-o-p book that details the Ross Stable from 1910 to 1920 and has lots of stuff and a few photos of MOW. I have a copy that will be put up on e-bay for The Exceller Fund.
The History of Horse Racing in America by W.P. Robertson is an absolute MUST HAVE for any fan of racing. It covers Thoroughbred racing from colonial days up to the early 1960's. Lots and lots of photos and great detailed stories. It includes an entire chapter on Man o' War as well as an appendix of his racing record and his measurements. I have a couple of copies that will be going up for the Exceller Fund auction as well. But if you can't wait, you can find them now and again on e-bay.
There is a new book on Man o' War that is published by Exclusively Equine, although I didn't like it as much as the Cooper & Treat book. But you can still purchase that book on their website which is http://www.exclusivelyequine.com
Thats alot of information, and thanks for the
links. I'll be checking them out. Don't know
if I'll have enough cash$$ to get them all,
but will give it a try.
Thanks!
Deb B
I have found Man o' War fans!!! I love Man o' War sooooooo much. I don't really know what to say, so I won't drag this post on. It's hard to find Man o' War stuff on the 'net. You guys should visit my site on Man o' War.
The address is www.manowar.freehomepage.com
I know Beth has seen it, I'm part of her webring:)
Even if you can't afford to be a regular supporting member, one-time donations are ALWAYS welcome!!! After a horse is rescued, he/she still has to eat!
Okay I've taken off the password on this room BUT bear in mind that I'll be watching this room VERY CLOSELY! If I see any flaming on this board it will be delted from here immediately!
I want this to be a room where people can speak their minds freely, but I do demand respect and NO FLAMMING.
So the room is open to the public. Post to your heart's content.
I'm going to delete the rest of the messages from the Secretariat yahoos on this page who trashed this board and forced me to password this room.
Also everyone please email me and tell me, in your opinion, if you think it's calmed down enough to unpassword this board and make it free again, although I'll be monitoring it even MORE strictly as before.
Or do you think we need to keep it passworded to the Secretariat lovers won't trash this board again despite the strict monitoring? I want everyone's opinion on this.
This may be my room, but y'all chat on here too and I'd like to hear your opinions. Y'all can contact me at bmc86@animail.net.
I came across some interesting information in "The Kentucky Derby - The First 100 Years" by Peter Chew.
A fella named H.P Whitney certainly was a prominent figure in American racing in the first half of the twentieth century. The Whitney family have run horses in the K/Derby 59 times and have won it 4 times, H.P Whitney owned the only filly ever to win the Derby (Regret in 1915) and Mr Whitney owned the only horse ever to beat Man'O War to the finish line (Upset). Good luck to anyone who tries to top that record.
Sorry, I was not thinking when I wrote the last message. It was supposed to say that I am riding a horse that is said to be closely related to Man O'War. How would I find out if this is true?
Sorry about the last message.
YOU CAN LOOK ON THE JOCKEY CLUB'S WEBPAGE. THEY HAVE A LINK TO A PAGE THAT YOU CAN PUT IN YOUR HORSE'S INFO AND PULL UP A FULL PEDIGREE ON THEM. I THINK IT IS CALLED EQUINE LINE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.THEY DO CHARGE YOU A FEE,I CAN'T REMEMBER HOW MUCH . BUT YOU GET YOUR INFO IMMEDIATELY. I USED IT TO RESEARCH MY MARE AND FOUND OUT SHE IS A GREAT GRAND-DAUGHTER OF WAR ADMIRAL, GREAT-GREAT GRAND-DAUGHTER OF MAN-O-WAR AND I COULDN'T BE MORE PROUD TO OWN HER !!!
GOOD LUCK TO YOU IN YOUR SEARCH !
Del Mar has a huge database, partly augmented by "viewers like you" who can enter data they know any time. http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/
Look up the horse himself 1st; if not, try another horse in his pedigree - his parents or grandparents. See if they show up on the database.
There is a big flaw in this database - it only searches the exact full names that are entered as data (a big problem mostly for ancient horses). For example, if someone entered a specific horse as "Kingston's Othello", I cannot look him up if all I know for sure is that he has "Othello" in his name. Other plain "Othello"s will show, but not "Kingston's" per se. (I eh, fixed this, by deleting Kingston's Othello and replacing him as just plain, w/little notation on his other names.) So try your exact names 1st, then if they don't work, try just 1 part of the name, and see if there are any matches.
If not, you can go to the Message Board there and maybe someone - including miles, who oversees the site - can help you further.
The latest Exceller Fund auctions are up and feature a 1st edition copy of SEABISCUIT - An American Legend, signed by the author Laura Hillenbrand.
For those that may not be familiar, while Seabiscuit defeated Man o' War's finest son War Admiral, it was a rivaly kept in the family since Seabiscuit was sired by Hard Tack, another son of Man o' War!
There are two copies that Ms. Hillenbrand has donated and signed, so there are two separate auctions to accomodate them.
The author suffers from the illness Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and therefore has no plans to go on a book signing tour. Furthermore, she stated in an e-mail to me that she has done no local book signings other than a few books signed for friends and reps from Random House. So this is a limited opportunity to own a signed copy of a book that has been in the top 10 of the New York Times Bestseller list for over 14 weeks - with several of those weeks spent at #1.
If you have read the book, you know what a great story this is, and here is your chance to own what will most likely be a valuable copy. If you have not read this story, then you are in for a wonderful treat!
The auctions will soon be linked on the Gift Page of the Exceller Fund website, but in the meantime, you can access them at:
Hey everyone!! I just joined this forum because I fell in love with Man o'War and it is soo hard to find info!! I just want to start off by sayin that Man o' War is the best ever and I only wish I could've seen him race........
See ya!!!
ManoWarfan
I think you have found the best spot for information
and people who know the most about Man O War.
My humble opinion is that MOW was the best horse
to ever step foot on a race track in the recorded
history of mankind. Not that there hasn't been
other great horses, but just that MOW is the
measure that all others are compared. Who knows
what he really could have run? Perhaps a true
anomalous horse that will stand in immortality
as others imitate but never duplicate his shadow.
If anyone has a copy of the BloodHorse Magazine dated June 2, 2001 turn to page 3202 and find an article on Riddle Memorial Hospital. Samuel D. Riddle left his 72 acre farm near Glen Riddle, PA and the majority of his financial holdings to develop this hospital upon his death in 1951. Recently, a mural has been created in the hospital's lobby featuring him and a beautiful picture of Man O' War that I have never seen before. If anyone has a copy of this photo please let me know and in the meantime I will try to blow it up on the computer from the magazine.
Anyone interested in learning more aabout Riddle Memorial Hospital can visit its site at:
www.riddlehospital.org
There is a history section whre you can read a bit more about Mr. Riddle's life outside of being the owner of the greatest racehorse that ever lived. He must have been a very generous humanitarian as well as great sportsman.
The Exceller Fund auctions are back - now under a new e-bay seller name... Exceller Fund!!!!
This auction features a beautiful photo of Silverbulletday taken by Eclipse Award winning photographer Barbara Livingston. The photo has been donated and signed by Barbara to help the Exceller Fund help those horses facing a grim future.
This is a full color 8 x 10 photo. Barbara's signature appears in the bottom right hand corner. The text shown on the photo is only to protet the image while on-line. It does not appear on the print itself.
If you have a chance, please visit the Exceller Fund at http://www.excellerfund.org to view the horses we have been able to help.
NOTE - Silverbulletday traces to Man o' War through her sire's dam (Silver Deputy is out of a Mr. Prospector Mare) and her dam's dam (Rokeby Rose is out of Rokeby Venus who is out of a Battlefield mare. Battlefield was sired by War Relic who was one of Man o' War's best sons at stud.)
I was looking up some stuff for a page on Kingston Town when I came across an article where the writer was comparing a racehorse called Might And Power to Tulloch and Kingston Town.
Does anyone have any information on this horse and do you think he should be on the champions list?
Might and Power was one of the best horses to have raced in Australia in the last 40 years.His racing style was to lead and defy any horse to run him down, few could whether it be 6 furlongs or 2 miles. He won the BIG 3 races on the Australian racing calender - The Melbourne Cup , Caulfield Cup and the wfa W.S Cox Plate. Might and Power's 1997 Melbourne Cup ( 2 miles ) victory at Flemington has to be seen to be believed. M & P lead from the moment the gates opened and kicked away on the home turn to win in a photo finish over 1995 M/Cup winner Doriemus. The 100,000 strong crowd went beserk !. Three weeks earlier Might and Power had won the Caulfield Cup ( 1 1/2 miles )by a widening 7 lengths leading all the way. I'm not sure of the exact amount but his career prizemoney was around 6 million dollars.
As good as Might and Power was, he would not have beaten Kingston Town, no matter what the distance
Do you think he's good enough to be added to the World Champions page I made?
Right now the internet and emials are the only way I have to hear about other horseracing champions in other countries. Unfortunately, America doesn't show too many foreign horseracing events.
Most the time the only time we see a foreign racehorse is during the Breeders' Cup races. So any info. that someone can give me is appreciated.
Might and Power was certainly good enough to add to your Champions page. I will find out all the statistics of his carrer, wins, prizemoney etc and will e-mail you the details. I have some great videos (VHS)of Australian champions - Kingston Town, Manakato & Tulloch which I can copy and send to you. They would be helpful with your research and give you an insight as to just how good the Aussie champs really are. Just let me know your mailing address and I'll send them over.
I recently saw a video of a horse called
Giant Causeway. I think he is Australian.
The tape was hard to watch because it kept
jumping but it seem that he was a great horse
and just missed winning the Ky Derby. I didn't
understand when this happen. I'm sure there
are some great horses that we don't hear
about here in the USA. (Or at least I don't)
Deb
Deb, I have never heard of a horse called Giant Causeway and as no Australian horse has ever started in the K/Derby let alone almost win it, he cannot be Australian. I also checked my K/Derby fields from the last 120 years and cannot find a horse by that name in any of the fields. Perhaps you can find out more on this "Mystery" horse.
I think you are right, he isn't an Australian horse.
I'm not sure why I thought that, must have been
something on the tape. When I do a search for the
name of the horse I use <www.google.com> and enter
< horse Giants Causeway > it will give you alot
of information. Too much for my little mind.
I think he was in last years Ky Derby, the one
that Peg won. He was known as the Iron Horse
from Europe. Hope this helps...sorry about the
mistake. I'm still not sure where he is really
from.
Deb
I was looking up some stuff for a page on Kingston Town when I came across an article where the writer was comparing a racehorse called Might And Power to Tulloch and Kingston Town.
Does anyone have any information on this horse and do you think he should be on the champions list?
I read someplace that the powers that be was thinking of changing the distances of the 3 races of the Triple Crown (Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and Belmont Stakes) since it has been such a long time since we had one that some people seems to think it's imposible.
What do you think?
I think it should stay the way it is, otherwise it would cheapen the race for the great horses that won all 3 in the past. Besides, the fact that we have 12 TC winners goes to prove that it IS possible, it's just not easy.
What did everyone think about the race yesterday?
If I am not in error, I think the 1st, 2nd, 3rd
place horses all had a MOW link to them! WOW..what a legend, what a living, racing, legend!
(Gee.. I'm even more inpressed.. is that posible?)
Did anyone see the Thoroughbred Classics show on the Preakness...
by regret
this week on ESPN Classic? I taped it and watched it this evening. There was some footage of Man O' War in his stall (Jack Whitticker was talking about Mr. Riddle but I think it was Louis Feustel standing with him???!?! - can anyone verify this or tell me who the two men are?)....plus footage of the Sir Barton match race.
Its funny... I notice that Jack Whitticker has been having trouble getting his facts straight.. he called Man O' War - Man of War then proceeded to say how Man beat Upset in the Preakness and that Upset defeated Man O' War later that summer!?!??!?! I want to write to ESPN to correct this to Upset having finished in front of Man the year before (notice how I don't say he beat him since we know Man would have won but for the worst racing luck!) Also, for you Secretariat fans.... Jack announced to the world during the Derby telecast that Monarchos ran the fastest Derby since 1972!??!?!??! I think he needs a refresher course!
Oh by the way.. I will now be known as Regret since my real name has already been taken on network 54.
Maria
This Preakness Stakes is this Saturday!! Who is your pick?? I was caught between Congaree and the Monarchos (the derby winner) till I found out Congaree is going to be running without blinkers (unlike during the derby he ran 3rd with them). So I'm picking the derby winner for the Preakness!!
But the thing that really bugs me about Zito is that he DOES win the big races - just never when you expect him to.
I know that A.P. Valentine has turned in disappointing performances this year, but Zito has the luck every odd big race or so..., so my longshot bet would be A.P.
I think the AP will capture one TC race this year, and probably one other Grade 1 before he is trundled off to stud for Coolmore to try to regain something for their $14 million investment.
I can't really make a smart guess, but just on feelings
I pick the horse I liked the looks of which is Point Given and Percy Hope along with Congree. Gee.. I guess I just like em' all! LOL..
Ofcourse Monarchos(Nachos) is also related to MOW so I want him to win. Plus my friend picked him prior to the Ky Derby. It's like trying to pick a favorite friend! LOL..
Good Luck to them all!
My pick is Monarchose for the Preakness. I went to the Daily Racing Form (http://www.drf2000.com) and got the form for the Preakness and looked at the past performances of the horses.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the exacta, first will be Monarchos, second will be Congaree.
I'm wearing my War Admiral t-shirt from Headed West for good luck!
Last year I wore it when I went to the Kentucky derby and a number of firsts happened:
1. I went to the Kentucky Derby.
2. The Derby favorite won for the first time in x number of decades.
3. I picked the Derby winner (for the first time in my life)
4. I picked the exacta! (I never did that in any race!)
For this year I wore the War Admiral shirt and Monarchos won the Derby under 2 minutes!! So instead of wearing my Man O'War shirt I"m going to wear my War Admiral shirt and see if we're lucky enough to see the Triple Crown happen this year!
Does anyone have any special picks for the race on saturday? Someone told me a couple of the horses that are running have some connection to MOW. Does anyone know who they are? Also, when looking for a connection is there some special horse to look for in the line?
Gee.. that's alot of question.
If you are looking for horses that would trace to Man o' War - some of the key horses you would look for in current pedigrees are:
Raise A Native, Mr. Prospector, Seattle Slew, A.P. Indy (because of Slew) Buckpasser - which trace to Man o' War through War Admiral as a broodmare sire I belive.
In Reality, Valid Appeal, Cee's Tizzy, Bertrando, Skywalker, Known Fact and Relaunch - all trace directly to Man o' War in tale-male lineage.
Monarchos can trace back to Man o' War through his sire side (from Raise A Native) and his dame side (from Warfare - daughter of War Whisk - daughter of War Glory - daughter of Man o' War)
Congaree traces back through both his sire and dam (Raise A Native and Known Fact.)
Point Given traces back through his sire (through Mr. Prospector/Raise A Native) and his dam (Raise a Native and Relaunch)
A.P. Valentine traces back through Seattle Slew on his sire side, and on his dam side through Raise A Native.
Haven't checked the pedigrees of the other entrants, but you can find them on the Del Mar website at http://www.dmtc.com/pedigree/ The Horse Query is located at the very top of the page. Get the 5x pedigree as that will allow you to look farther back.
Just today I found out about this new acution site: http://www.horseauction.net/Default.htm where you can actually get horses, ponys, tack, etc at an auction. I just found out about it today.
According to what I read, if they find out you're buying a horse for slaughter they will delete your account so they're horsey friendly apparently.
Actually, we are more than horsey friendly - we own horses, have our own boarding facility, where we teach equitation (english and western) and are strong adherents to Richard Shrake's training models. The only problem we have is that Jeanette is trying to save the world one horse at a time and it is hard to keep a barn afloat when you go around rescuing animals all of the time <G> Feel free to visit our auction site at http://www.horseauction.net or our barn's web site at http://www.shdybrk.com -
With all the falmmers we had this past week. Do y'all think we should have an actual chat room for Big Red's Stable? Please to to the site at the bottom and let me know. Thanks.
If I may add one comment about Yo Tambien...I am the director of The Exceller Fund and Yo Tambien handles our fundraisers for us. I have known her for about three years now and can tell you without question that she would NEVER post anything like the lewd posts and pornographic videos that someone posted under her name. To do so would never ever cross her mind.
On another forum on which both of us post, Yo Tambien never flames, gets insulting or joins in when the threads on the board disintegrate into name-calling. She is one of the nicest people I know and has raised an enormous amount of funds for The Exceller Fund. Not only does she donate all of her time, she also has donated money from her own pocket for administrative expenses.
What Beth said is absolutely right - on a board that doesn't require logins or passwords, anyone can post under someone else's name. I remember on the old Blood-Horse forum, someone used the name and e-mail address of a regular poster to post that Mr. Prospector had died after fracturing a hip in his paddock. This was untrue and very upsetting to the person who regularly used that name under which to post. This type of behavior is very hurtful to the people who regularly post under names which are "borrowed."
Yo Tambien and I have had a number of highly enjoyable MOW vs. Sec discussions - like me, she appreciates both Big Reds. When you see Yo Tambien posting on this board again, rest assured that it will be the nice, sincere person who posts here because she loves Man O' War and horseracing - the person who gives so much time and talent to benefit our Thoroughbred heroes. She is one of the finest people I know.
Since for some reason this new login system wouldn't let me use my real name (which I usually do because I feel if I have valid facts to post, I post my name usually, because some people say anything they want under an alias and then do not have to be held accountable for non- factual errors. I do not do that, and if I'm in error, I want to know.
I wanted to also speak on behaf of Yo Tambien. I have known her about a year or more and she has always been an outstanding person with real ethics and a desire to do good things for both horses and people. It is sad that when the internet is abused, one person can do so much damage to her. This web page has given us both the good and evil of the internet--the stealing and "selling" of an identity, as well as the opposite of that dark side--postings that have alerted people to rescue missions and saved countless horses. I come to her defense obviously with the risk of running the same fate for myself. But since this web site is, and has always been, the discussion spot of "what is" and "who has" true courage and heart, I will exhibit some myself in coming to her defense.
People should be free to post facts or opinions here without using rude fames or getting personal--no matter which horse is someone's favorite. We all learn something in a discussion mode. An intelligent fact finding/exposing debate can be enlightening and interesting for both sides. In any sport half the fun is discusing your "teams" pros and cons (when done in a civil manner) .
On the positive side, the endless debate on Man O' War and Secretariat keeps them both in the public eye, so neither's records are forgotten to the new generations. That ultimately should be what is most important to a real fan of either. --Richanna Patrick (alias now as Frilette thanks to Network 54 or whatever it's called).
Thanks for the words of support and encouragement. That was certanly a bizaare incident, and it really gave me pause to think about what this world is coming to when a friendly board about Man o' War can come under attack like this.
At any rate, I thought a long time about my reaction to all of this and decided that the only response I can give is to pray for the people that did this.
This world is so full of ugly emotions and hurtful exchanges between people, it is hard not to get caught up in all of it. I will pray for the person who attacked me that he will come to understand the love that G-d has for him, and will accept Divine wisdom and love in his heart.
I just found out Monarchos (that's right the Kentucky Derby winner) is a descendant of Man O'War! His sire is a gray stallion named Maria's Mon, and he's the great-grandsone of Buckpasser. Now if you go on my descendants page, Buckpasser is the Great-grandson of Man O'War through War Admiral!
Our new Derby winner is the great-great-great-great-great- (or as I like to say it 5x great) grandson of Man O'War himself!
Monarchos's top line is from Raise A Native - whose dam, Raise You, is out of Lady Glory who is a daughter of American Flag (out of a Whisk Broom mare.)
In addition, Raise A Native's sire, Native Dancer, is out Geisha - a daughter of Discover. Now Discovery is by Display - a son of Fair Play. Geisha's dam, Miyako, is a daughter of John P. Grier!!!
In remembering the blood of Man o' War - don't forget his father Fair Play! The blood of Fair Play also ran in the veins of Secretariat (through Discovery.)
Anytime you see a Mr. P. (or any other descendent of Raise A Native), you see a double dose of Fair Play!
Thanks for the interesting facts that relate back
to MOW. As a long time fan of MOW, but a new learner
to all the wonderful information connected, I am
pleased to find that some of the horses that I
have watched are from the same bloodlines.
Bear with me as I make mistakes and ask some
stupid questions, but how many current horses are
linked to MOW in the next race for the Crown?
I want to cheer on the ones that have a MOW
connection.
Since, I found this great site, I hope to enjoy
the conversations and information. Don't worry about
the nuts & fruits, cyberland is full of them and it
happens on all the websites. That's why my computer
has a good delete button! LOL..
Deb B
There are no such things as stupid questions on this board. I didn't even become a Man O'War fan till a few years ago, and it was Walter Farley's book that introduced me to him. Even then I thought some of the info in the book was ficionalized a bit. I didn't know that he REALLY DID win the Realization Stakes in 100 lengths, I that it was an exageration.
Everyone on this board knows something the other doesn't about Man O'War and that's one of the reasons I made this board, so we can share our knowledge of the great Big Red. Welcome to the board.
I have made a few rules reguarding what is acceptible on this board.
1. NO FLAMMING!
2. NO PORNOGRAPHY!
3. If you cannot respece the beliefs of the people on this board then DON'T BOTHER POSTING.
4. You now muct have a Network54 account to post on here. You can do so at http://netowork54.com, all posts from logins will be moderated. If you wish to join the Man O'War group at http://network54.com/Hide/Group/8468 you can, anyone in the group has much more freedom to post on this board than those NOT in the group.
If you think this is unfair I'm sorry, but after the way everyone has been acting and the one pornographic clip, I'm forced to do this. If you have any trouble logging in then email me at bmc86@animail.net and I'll do what I can to help.
B) will you please stop with all the MOW vs Sec. flames, they are both legends- stop provoking people.
C) how about just leaving this board alltogether and never coming back?
i am a long time reader of this board and have never been moved to make a post until you started gunking up the place with your nonsense. i'm sure beth would not appreciate it.
Someone else "stole" my identity by typing in my Forum name and my e-mail. I've never made an attempt to hide my e-mail, so it was just to easy for someone to take a cheap shot.
I am a middle age mother who devotes a lot of time and energy raising money to rescue ex-racehorses that would otherwise be sold for slaughter. If you have been reading this board for any length of time then you would know that.
I am not interested in flame wars, I am just trying to present the facts about Man o' War. I spent a lot of time and effort typing in Man o' War's race record including dates, times, weights carried, and racing chart descriptions.
Beth can probably tell from the IP addresses of the posts that the post was not from me.
If you want to accuse me of something I didn't do, then that is your business. Of my REAL posts, what has offended you?
Here are the comments from some of the racing charts for Man o' War races. These are from the official charts from the Daily Racing Form which show in most of Man o' War's races that he was either eased up at the end or under a stout restraint. So this is not a horse that need a HAND RIDE to set records - this was a horse that set records while UNDER RESTRAINT!!
In his 1st race (Maiden SPW 2 YO 6/6/1919)- "under stout restraint at the end." Won by 6
5 furlongs Time- :59/Track - fast
Man o' War carried 115 as did all the colts in the race.
2nd race (Keene Memorial Stakes 2YO 6/9/1919) - "Won easily; second and third driving." Won by 3.
5 1/2 furlongs Time- 1:05 2/3 track condition not stated.
Man o'carried 115 as did all the colts in the race except Ralco whose jockey was 1 1/2 pounds overweight.
3rd race (Youthful Stakes 2 YO 6/21/1919 )- "was eased up in the last sixteenth." Won by 2 1/2
5 1/2 furlongs Time - 1:06 3/5 Track-good
Man o' War carried 120 pounds. Other horses carried 108, 105, & 105.
4th race (Hudson Stakes 2 YO 6/23/1919) - "was easing up in the final forty yards." Won by 1/2
5 furlongs Time - 1:01 3/5 Track-fast
Man o' War carried 130 pounds. Other horses carried 115, 115, 112, and 109.
5th race (Tremont Stakes 2 YO 7/5/1919) - "and won all the way unextended." Won by 1
6 furlongs Time - 1:13 Track-fast
Man o' War carried 130 punds. Other horses carried 115 and 112.
6th race (United States Hotel Stakes 2 YO 8/2/1919) - "raced under restraint thereafter, and was eased up in the final sixteenth." Won by 2
Man o' War carried 130. Other horses carried 127, 125, 115, 115, 115, 112, 112, 112, 112.
7th Race (Sanford Memorial 2 YO 8/13/1919) -
"Start poor and slow. (Upset) won driving, second and third same. Upset follwed the leader (Golden Broom) closely from the start, moved up with a rush in the last eighth, and , taking the lead, held on gamely when challenged and just lasted long enough to withstand Man o' War's challenge. The latter began slowly and moved up steadily to the stratch run, where he got into close quarters, then came to the outside in the final eighth, and responding gamely to punishment was gaining in the closing strides."
2nd by 1/2 length.
6 furlongs - Time 1:12 2/5 Track-fast
Man o' War carried 130. Other horses carried 130 (Golden Broom), 115 (Upset), 115, 112, 112, 112.
8th race (Grand Union Hotel Stakes 2 YO 8/23/1919) -"Won eased up, second and third driving. Man o' War followed Upset in the early running under slight restraint, took the lead at his rider's lsisure, and drew away in the stretch to win easing up through the last sixteenth." Won by 1
6 furlongs - Time 1:12 Track-fast
Man o' War carried 130. Other horses carried 125 (Upset), 122, 115, 115, 115, 115, 115, 112, 112.
9th race (Hopeful Stakes 2 YO 8/30/1919) - "under slight restraint in the early running and assumed command at his leisure when entering the stretch, to win in a canter." Won by 4
6 furlongs - Time 1:13 - Track-slow
Man o' War carried 130. Other horses carried 125, 24, 115, 112, 112, 112.
10th race (Futurity Stakes 2 YO 9/13/1919) - "Won easily, second and third driving. Man o' War was saved behind the leaders until the last quarter, then took the lead at his rider's leisure and won easing up." Won by 2 1/2
6 furlongs - Time 1:11 3/5 Track-fast
Man o' War carried 127. Other horses carried 122, 122, 122, 122, 120, 119, 119, 117, 117.
11th race (Preakness Stakes 3 YO 5/18/1920)
(Man o' War FIRST start as a 3 year old was in the PREAKNESS STAKES. Mr. Riddle wanted Man o' War's 3 year old debut to be in his home state of Maryland.)
"At post 6 minutes. Won easily, second and third driving. Man o' War , rushed to the front to run to the first turn, set a terrific early pace, and subduing King Thrush in the first three-quarters, had something in reserve when Upset challenged in the stretch." Won by 1 1/2.
1 1/8 miles - Time 1:51 3/5 Track-fast
Man o' War carried 126. Other horses carried 126 (Blazes), 126 (On Watch), 122 (Upset), 114 (King Thrush), 114, 114, 114, 114.
12th race (Withers Stakes 3 YO 5/29/2910) - "Man o' War assumed command at the start, displayed wonderful speed under restraint, and won under a stout pull." Won by 2
1 mile - Time 1:35 1/4 (New American Record. Previous TRACK record was 1:36 3/5. NOTE - the MORNING of the race, Man o' War was clocked in a workout for 1 furlong at 10 1/5.
Man o' War carried 118 as did the other two entries.
13th race (Belmont Stakes 3 YO 6/12/1920) - "Man o'War, hard held in the early running, opened up a long lead entering the main track, but wastaken under a pull in the final sixteenth." Won by 20
1 3/8 mile - Time 2:14 1/4 (New Track Record. Previous Track record was 2:17 2/5)
Man o' War and Donnaconna both carried 126 pounds. After Man o' War's season opener in the Preakness and his performance in the Withers, no owners wanted to send their horses against MOW. Mr. Loft was finally persuaded to enter Donnaconna.
14th race (Stuyvesant Handicap 3 YO 6/22/1920) - "Man o' War, outbreaking his opponent, drew into a long lead under stout restraint and was eased up in the last eighth." Won by 8
1 mile - Time 1:41 3/5 Track-Good
Man o' War carried 135, Yellow Hand carried 103. Scratched were Dominique, Irish Dream, On Watch, and Krewer.
Fuestel gave Kummer instructions to keep Man o' War on a tight hold because of the track condition and the 135
weight could have been injurious.
15th race (Dwyer Stakes 3 YO 7/10/1920)
"Start Good and slow. Won ridden out; second driving. Man o' War rated in front under steady restraint for the first three quarters, resonded courageously under intermittent punishment through the stretch , and drew clear under hard urging in the last sixteenth. John P. Grier ran in close pursuit of the leader the entire race, assumed a slight lead between calls in the stretch, but faltered the last seventy yards and Ambrose eased him up in the closing strides.
Won by 1 1/2
1 1/8 miles - Time 1:49 1/5 (New American Record. Previous TRACK record was 1:49 2/5.
Man o' War carried 126; John P. Grier (son of Whisk Broom 11 by the way) carried 108.
16th race (Miller Stakes 3 YO 8/7/1920) - "was taken under stout restraint rounding the upper turn, and was never extended." Won by 6
1 3/16 miles - Time 1:56 3/5
Man o' War carried 131. Other horses carried 119, 114.
17th race (Travers Stakes 3 YO 8/21/1920 - "Man o' War took the lead at the start, and, setting a terrific pace in the early running, raced John P. Grier into defeat and was under restraint the stretch."
Won by 2 1/2
(Equaled track record 1 1/14 miles - 2:01 4/5 NOTE - for an interesting statistic, look up the times for the Travers since 1960. You might be surprised.)
Man o' War carried 129, Upset-123, John P. Grier-115.
18th race (Lawrence Realization 3 YO 9/4/1920)- "Man o' War set a great pace under stout restraint the first three-quarters, displayed his flight of speed rounding the lower turn. In the stretch he was take under restraint." Won by 100
1 5/8 miles Time- 2:40 4/5 New American Record. Prior TRACK record was 2:47 3/5.) How many horses break a TRACK record by 6 4/5 seconds?
Man o' War carried 126; Hoodwink carried 116.
19th race (Jockey Club Stakes 3 YO 9/11/1920) - "Man o' War under steady restraint the first mile, opened up a long lead in the stretch, and won under a pull." Won by 15
1 1/2 miles 2:28 4/5 New American Record Previous TRACK record was 2:32 1/5.
Did Secretariat set his Belmont record UNDER RESTRAINT???
Man o' War and Damask both carried 118. This race is now known as the Jockey Club Gold Cup.
20th race (Potomac Handicap 3 YO 9/18/1920) - "Man o' War was a bit fractious at the post, but broke well and assumed command under a strong pull rounding the first turn, the Kummer rated him along easily and he drew away without effort when Wildair challenged bout the middle of the stretch, and was easing up at the finish." Won by 1 1/2
1 1/16 mile 1:44 4/5 New track record. Previous track record was 1:45 Another record while easing up.
Man o' War carried 138 (not 128 - ONE THIRTY EIGHT!)
Paul Jones (Kentucky Derby winner that year) carried 114. Wildair carried 108. Blazes carried 104 1/2.
To those who think Man o' War was kept out of the Derby because of the competition, here he GAVE 24 pounds to the Derby winner, and he finished 18 1/2 lengths in front of him! Man o' War won by 1 1/2, but Wildair was 15 lengths in front of the rest of the field.
21st race (Gold Cup match race with Sir Barton 10/12/1920) - "won all the way never fully. Keogh went to the whip before they had gone a quarter but was unable to improve his position." Won by 7
1 1/4 miles - Time 2:03 New Track record - previous track record was 2:09. Man o' War carried 120, Sir Barton (Triple Crown winner and one year older) carried 126. If you have ever seen the film clip of this race, notice the tremendous DUST CLOUDS the billow out under the horses hooves. THIS was the track conditions of those days. You simply won't see DUST CLOUDS on today's modern track soil.
The other amazing thing to look at is the differences in the weight Man o'War carried in all of the efforts vs. the opposing horses. 15 to 20 pound concessions to most of his opponents was "business as
usual" for Man o' War.
I will grant that the Triple Crownperformances of Secretariat were a wonderful sight and awesome to behold. But I will alsosay that Man o' War's ENTIRE CAREER must have been an awesome sight and almost unearthly to behold.
I will close this post with a quote from Roy Dickerson, assistant starter who led Man o'War to the post in the Travers. "There never lived a horse that was more horse than he was that afternoon. He was so beautiful that it almost made you cry, and so full of fire he made you thank your G^d that you could come
close to him. No horse ever lived who could have beaten him that afternoon."
Riddle Farm in Berlin, Md, one of the Many homes of Man o War
by
The Riddle Farm in Berlin, MD where Man O war was stabled and rested is now under distruction for a new housing development. These wonderful stables with a intact track, groom houses and even a fire house are now gone. The main house burned down numberous years ago. I was there several years ago and found out the history from locals who saw Man O' War there and met the groom and even Mr. Riddle. This farm was a show case for the area and Sunday racing was a community event. The main entrance was tree lined and had arches at every entrance to the stables (There were at least 4. Four or Five homes for trainers and farm workers still standing. It is ashame that the Developer didn't have insight to this... the only motivation was of course money... to bad. The place had some much potiential. but i do have my pictures to remember it. The feeling of history was overwelming. i only wish all could share in it.
If you saw my post below, I've been watching over this issue a while.
Unfortunately, the Riddle Farms development will be plowing thru, finally after some 10 years of other hold-ups. They did state they will be keeping a barn - I suppose it's supposed to be where Man was housed - as well as personally addressing my graveyard org to say they will be preserving that. I do wish they would keep the track, which incidentally surrounds the graveyard as well. There's something about a track which is so inspiring, but I guess it's not to be, unless we put pressure on them further.
I AM A PART OF RIDDLE FARM, IWOULD LIKE TO KNOW AT WHAT TIME YOU HAVE PICTURES. IF THEY ARE OF BEFORE ALL THE DEVELOPMENT, I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN BUYING SOME FROM YOU, IF THEY ARE FOR SALE.
I LIVE WHERE THE EAST ENTRANCE GOES.
Monarchos almost clipped Secretariat's Derby record. Now IF Monarchos wins the Triple Crown, a lot of Secretariat fans are gonna know what we Man o' War fans feel when the legend of Secretariat gets pushed aside for Monarchos MANIA!
EVERYONE looks for a hero they can see in the here and now! It takes a special person not to jump onto the latest bandwagon and be true to the opinions they hold about their hero of old.
I'll get out the racing charts in the next couple of days and start posting some FACTS about Man o' War that Secretariat was never able to match.
There are differences between Secretariat and Man o' War - most notably the huge gap in time and racing technology.
But there were many similarities that fans of both horses should embrace....
They were born one day apart on the calendar year.
They were both big, red, bounding horses.
They both dominated their class.
They both set records.
They both inspired legions of fans.
Who knows - if there is some sort of horsey re-incarnation - perhaps????
They both saved the sport when it was down.
wow, if you call half a second "almost clipping" his record then what do you call secretariat's 4 second demolishing of man o'wars 1 1/2 mile record? "nukeing"?
actually it says alot for secretatiat that for 30 YEARS only he and his very tough competion in Sham were able to break the 2 minute mark at the derby. that's really amazing if you think about it. and it still stands.
says alot for secretariat and the level of competition he had to deal with. makes his victories, esp. the 30+ lgth belmont victory that much more legendary.
what did monarchos do it by? by about .0000001 of a second wasn't it. all the more power to him. but i doubt if he'll pull it off (triple crown).
Dave,
While some sicko posted the "video clip", I was posting the entire race record for Man o' War.
If you like, you can review the times, the weights, the very few days in between races. And yes - he did SMASH some records - by 6 4/5ths seconds, 3 1/5 seconds, 1 4/5th seconds, 3 2/5th seconds ...most of the time while UNDER RESTRAINT.
BTW - I sure hope to G-d that "other" post wasn't done by you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute that bit of sickness to some freak that is just surfing the net.
Do you know where I can find the times of any of Kincsem's races? Or any other info on her? I have already read the site from World Champions. I can't believe she went 54 for 54 and carried an unheard of 168lbs. in one race. If her times were even fairly decent, I think she would have to be one of the top 3 greatest of all time, if not the greatest. Would appreciate any help anyone can offer.
I'd love to help but I"m afraid all the links you saw on her page were the only ones I was able to find. If I can find more I"ll post them on her page.
The one thing I do remember of her that I was VERY impressed with is how she was at a train station and for some reason the train couldn't get her to the track to race, so she was saddled and preped for the race and RAN with her jockey on her to the ract track, and ran the race and WON! I know of no other horse that can do that today. It's completly unheard of for a horse to do that and it very much impressed me to hear a filly do that. I truly belive that if the Triple Crown had existed back in her day, she could've won it easily.
I was so wrapped up with the derby saturday I almost missed the History of Horse Racing. Did any of you happen to catch it? It contained the most clips of man o'war I've ever seen on one program and did a fair job of telling MOW's story. There was a rerun at midnight I was able to tape. I hope its rerun again for those of you that missed it.
The program was titled Win Place and SHow: The history of horse racing. I spent a couple of hours playing the tape through my TV card and was able to save off about 30 jpg's about half are decent. I'm trying to make some avi's but I keep crashing. I just finished building a 1000mhz computer I should say almost finished. It's still buggy. I can start the Avi capture but it goes away when I try to save. Have any of you tried this? I would really like to share this with others tha tmight be interested. I've been looking for an excuse to start a web page what do you think?
...I am grateful HC opted to do something on racing, but a) it seemed misnamed (try "Triple Crown Story" or "Woody Stephens Show") and out of scope and b) there were several detail errors about Man O'War. Including, as I think Yo said, the photos.
I'm not convinced about those alleged Man foal photos yet. Neither am I convinced all the (mostly very old looking, for sure) moving race footage was really Man-related. I think it was just more example of out-of-context photos/films in a documentary. After all, again, they kept showing mostly if not all 1800s lithos when talking about colonial racing! (Not to mention, this discussion of the early years was completely swept under the rug to jump into 1900.)
Can anyone tell me anything about the horse Jovial Jove? I recently obtained this beutiful painting of him, but know little of him. All I know is he ran in the late 50's and won the Breeder's Futurity in 1959.
That is an excellent site. Thanks for the tip. Yep, that's him! That's so cool... I thought he looked sorta familar! He had a beutiful red coat. The artist looks to be Joseph Petro. Thank you again.
If anyone else has any knowledge of this horse, I'd love to hear about it.
I get tears to my eyes everytime I watch that race.
Has anyone seen the wonderful 30 min. special on Sec. that ESPN did? It was for their top 100 greatest ever athletes. I think Sec. was about 30 something. Pretty good. He beat Mickey Mantle! Were any other horses ranked? He was the only one I saw. I thought MOW and Citation deserved mention.
I had some free time on my hands so I figured out this formula to convert human height to hands (I think it's right).
4 inches are in a hand
12 feet are in an inch
N = inches
F = feet (N+(F*12))/4 = hands
I tried converting hands to human ft and in by using Man O'War's measurements but it doesn't add up. Do we have any mathimaticians in this board to help me? According to the formula above 5ft. 5.5in. is 16.375 hands and 5ft. 6in. is 16.5 hands. BUT when I try to reverse it I get 5.4583....ft for 16.375 hands and 5.5ft for 16.5 hands. Someone please tell me what went wrong? This is the formula I used:
this is the third time i've double posted because of being disconnected. I guess I need to shut down and start over when this happens. netscape must buffer the mouse clicks.
My apologies that this doesn't really deal with MOW (which all of us here agree is the best, tho' there's a soft spot in our hearts for Seabicuit), but you guys seem to know a ton of stuff. Does anyone know the old poem about the triple crown winners (written only up to Citation)?? The first line is, "Sir Barton was the first in 1919, [forgot this] with a kick that was keen". Help!!
Thanks so much. I've had the best time reading everyone's postings.
I went to the Daily Racing Form (http://www.drf2000.com) and got the form for the Preakness and looked at the past performances of the horses.