Hello. This is Big Red's Stable, a board that can be used for both as a chat board and a guestbook. Use it either way but I'd appreciate it if you would leave a message here so people can get together and talk about horses, horseracing, or whatever. Thank-you :-)
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If you can agree to these rules, then you are more than welcome to post on this board. Welcome :-)
poem
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My apologies that this doesn't really deal with MOW (which all of us here agree is the best, tho' there's a soft spot in our hearts for Seabicuit), but you guys seem to know a ton of stuff. Does anyone know the old poem about the triple crown winners (written only up to Citation)?? The first line is, "Sir Barton was the first in 1919, [forgot this] with a kick that was keen". Help!!
Thanks so much. I've had the best time reading everyone's postings.
Excited to Have a Man O' War 6th Generation GrandDaughter
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I just recently purchased a two year old quarter horse mare, and on her pedigree six generations back was
Man O' War! She has his blood twice. And, when I share this wonderful information with friends, trainers and family, they take a double take of disbelief.
We are very happy with her disposition, smarts and athletic abilities. She is by far a star at the training facility that we have her in.
Just a note to let you know that I will be doing some research on Man O' War and would like some actual pictures of him to view.
I wanted to let everyone know that this month besides the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness a few horseracing shows are going to be on television. Unfortunately none of them seem to be of Man O'War ;-( but a few ARE of some of his descendants!
Just wanted to let everyone know that as Beth mentioned there has been quite a bot of racing coverage this week .... ESPN2 featured a show on "Upset Derbies" that began by explaining that the term "Upset" came from the horse of that name beating Man O' War and how it is now used in all sports when the favorite doesn't win. They showed pictures and I beleive soem footage on MOW. IT is part of the Run for The Roses series narrated by Chris Lincoln. They also showed more footage of him on one of ESPN Classic's shows on the Triple Crown winners, I can't remember if it was on Secretariat's or Seattle Slew's. Regardless they willall be repeated early Friday morning from 1am to 5am... my vcr will be set!
Just wanted to give all of you a heads up. I received a very old photo of Man o' War that appears to have been taken when he was just off the track or perhaps just beginning at stud.
Now, I've been collecting everything Man o' War for the last 25 years, and I had NEVER seen this photo before... not in any books or any other collections of photos about MOW.
The photo was badly damaged, but I have had some restored prints made. I will be posting them on the Exceller Fund Gift Shop, and will let you know as soon as that is up!!!
A couple of folks in here have gotten a "sneak preview", and they can tell you that the photo really shows what a tremendous build Man o' War possessed!
And tell me if this is not an AWESOME photo of Man o' War!!!!
I am taking orders on this print, and can have as many printed as people want. I am very happy to "rescue" this image of MOW, and have it help rescue horses!
Or - Go to the main Exceller Fund page - and click on the Gift Shop button on the left hand side. Scroll down about half-way and you should see the item.
Let me know if you still cannot access it. Thanks!
Wow.. what a picture! Thanks for
sharing it with us. I went to the gift
shop but for some reason I couldn't get
anything to show. Maybe my old computer.
Anyway, Thanks
PLEASE HELP SAVE MAN O WAR'S FARM IN MARYLAND!!!!!!!
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DEAR FRIENDS,SEEMS AS EACH ONE HERE CARES A GREAT DEAL ABOUT MAN O WAR. DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT THE FARM WHERE HE WAS TRAINED AND WINTERED IN BERLIN , MARYLAND IS SLATED FOR DEVELOPMENT.THIS IS THE BEAUTIFUL GLEN RIDDLE FARM ON MARYLAND'S EASTERN SHORE.
THE FARM IS STILL BEAUTIFUL BUT IN POOR CONDITION.THERE ARE STILL TWO LOVELY TRAINING BARNS STANDING.THEY ARE OF EXCELLENT CONSTRUCTION WITH STONE FOUNDATIONS AND CEDAR SHINGLES ON THE ROOF.BOTH HAVE SMALL JOGGING TRACKS AROUND THE OUTSIDE OF THE STALLS.THERE IS A ONE MILE TRAINING TRACK, AND EVEN A HUMAN CEMETARY. THERE IS ALSO A MEMORIAL TO MAN O WAR THERE.AN LATTICE ARCH WITH HOLLY AND IVY WITH VERY FADED LETTERS THAT STILL READ MAN O WAR.
ANYONE WHO CARES, WE NEED TO GROUP TOGETHER TO TRY TO SAVE THIS PLACE!!!SHE HAS BEEN SITTING UNUSED SINCE THE EARLY 70'S WHEN THE JEFFORD'S LAST HAD HORSES THERE.PRESENTLY IT IS SLATED FOR A HUGE HOUSING DEVELOPMENT AND GOLF COURSE AND MARINA.PLANING ON NAMING THE STREETS AFTER ALL THE GREAT HORSES, MAKES ME SICK!!!
THIS IS A VERY SPECIAL PLACE,DATING BACK TO COLONIAL TIMES AND EVEN BEFORE WITH MANY NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS FROM AROUND THAT AREA.IT IS RIGHT NEXT TO CHINCOTEAGUE AND ASSATEAGUE.IT IS MY UNDERSTANDINMG THAT THER DEVELOPMENT PROSCESS HAS BEEN DRAGGINBG ALONG DUE TO SOME REMAINING PERMITS AND LACK OF $$$$.MEANWHILE, THE FARM FALLS FURTHER INTO HISTORY AND LESS INTO OUR MEMORIES.
WE NEED TO GROUP OUR RESOURCES AND TRY TO DO SOMETHING, THIS PLACE IS STILL GRAND AND ONE CAN EASILY IMAGINE IT'S MAGNIFICENCE.IT NEEDS TO BE A RACE HORSE FARM AGAIN, THE LAND IS PERFECT, THE TRACK IS PERFECT, LOAMY SAND OVER MARYLAND CLAY.THE PROPERTY ALSO BACKS UP TO A SMALL RIVER AND THERE WAS ONCE A BIG BOAT HOUSE TOO.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT WE CAN DO, BUT I NEEDED TO MAKE YOU ALL AWARE OF THIS SITUATION,ANYONE HAVE ANY GOOD IDEAS??I CANNOT STAND TO SEE THIS PART OF OUR HISTORY DISTROYED, AND IF YOU PEOPLE CARE SO MUCH FOR MAN O WAR AS YOU SEEM TO, THEN LET'S GET GOING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!!! PLEASE HELP FOR MAN O WAR AND THE FUTURE OF YOUNG RACEFANS ALL ACROSS AMERICA AND THE WORLD. THANKS
Everyone can read about how I came across this issue in my "graveyard" thread below. I think it would be great if a cadre of Man O'War/racing fans could form up to help save this site, along w/the Coalition to Protect MD Burial Sites. http://www.rootsweb.com/~mdcpmbs/coalition01.htm
The funny thing is the developer is Taylor Construction - the surname of the original plantation owners, some of whose family is buried in the infield. Further, the name of the corp I guess officially owning and developing this site is calling itself "Glen Riddle Farms Corp" or some such (have to check my records again. Not sure how this breaks down business-wise, or if it's a shell game to confuse everyone.
I need everyone's opinion on something. I'm debating back and forth on making an acutal Man O'War chat room. Network54 that lets me make this board also allows you to make actual chat rooms.
I know some of us live in other states, time zones, and possibly other countries, but I was wondering if any of y'all would be interested in the chat room idea? Pleaes all opinion are welcome on this.
Well, maybe we could organize it like a meeting where on a certain night with a time friendly to both coasts we would all log on.
But I see what Reb means, there's only light activity here. My new computer position here has kept me running at home stretch rate every day in this office, so I don't have the time to stop here as much as I once did, or get on my "soapbox" over Secretariat--which probably some don't miss Plus buying a second horse and starting to teach riding again didn't help time wize either.
My old 35 year old large hunter show pony gave me a scare last Friday, acted like she was dying but pulled out of it by the time I drove 15 miles at 75 miles an hour to get there in time. We think she had a mild stroke, but appears OK now. I guess at the end of the summer, I'm going to have to make a decision. I've choose Nov. 1st. for its symbolic significance. Anything that will help me get through doing this I guess. She showed until she was 28, (jumps too) and won so she has lead a good healthy life with no serious unsoundness ever. Been together since 1973, she is my best friend, and best teaching partner ever.
I don't know how many of you have had a chance to read the new book - Seabiscuit: An American Legend by Laura Hillenbrand. It is an EXCELLENT book.
And while Seabiscuit may have beaten War Admiral in that famous Match Race, remember that Seabiscuit was a GRANDSON of Man o' War. His sire, Hard Tack, was a fiesty, unruly son of Man o' War.
I give the book my highest recommendations!
(I know I've been away for a while. I had to get a new computer and lost my bookmarks.)
I never thought of that but your right, I never realzed about his shoes or anything but that is something to think abaut. Thanks for the info. thanks again maggie
I was thinking, why not mention our AOL IM handles (if you have one) so we can chat on AIM person to person? That's up to y'all but here's mine:
Cryste1 (the last character is the number one)
I live in Lexington, KY., home of Faraway and Man O' War farms. I've been lucky enough to be able to go to Faraway Farm. Man O' War's stall still has an image of his name on it, and the stakes bell that was rung every time a horse from that stable won a stakes race remains, as well as the breeding shed where Man O' War stood. Man O' War Farm, right next door is where the original buriel site was. It is so magnificently peaceful! I loved Man O' War too, and once owned a grand-daughter of War Admiral. Thought I'd share some info!
Happy Man O'War Day!! aka Happy Birthday Man O'War!!!
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This is to wish everyone in Big Red's Stable Happy Man O'War day!! Or as other's know it Man O'War's Birthday!! Here is a card to everyone for this special day of the great champion:
Thanks for the card Beth! I just realized that's what it would probably be! LOL
I put the Happy Birthday message on my usual LetItRide forum, too, to make sure they all know - before the big threads manifest themselves tomorrow for That Other Horse!
There are a number of 3yr olds in the year's crop from Man O'War (I just can't think of their names off hand). The easiest way to find them is look for any horse with Seattle Slew or A.P. Indy in their pedigree. Both horses are descendants of Man O'War and have offspring (or in Seattle Slew's case offspring and grand-offspring (aka grandchild) both) in the races. Man O'War's descendants span a lot of horses now and I don't think a Kentucky Derby can go by without having anywhere between 1 to 8 horses with Man O'War's blood in them somewhere.
Thanks for the information. A.P. Valentine is a son of A.P. Indy. He just broke the track record for 11/16 on Saturday at Hialeah. He ran in 1:40.39. Scorpion, a Lukas horse is by Slew.
Another way to see if there are any other Man O'War descendants in the run for the roses, go back to Man O'War's page at http://www.angelfire.com/nc/ManOWar then click on the descendants page. Every horse on that page is a descendant of Man O'War if you see any colt with one of those names in their pedigree, he/she is a descendant of Man O'War. I hope it helps.
How nice that you celebrate Man o' War.
I recently received an extended pedigree
on a mare I own and found Man o' War in
her 8th generation! I celebrate with you!
I'm working on something and I was wondering if any of y'all know what happened to Johnny Loftus, Willie Knapp, and C.H. (Charlie?) Pettinghill? As y'all know Loftus and Knapp are the jockies that were suspended for a year of riding after Man o'War's one loss. But after that does anyone know what happened to one of them or both of them? C.H. Pettinghill was the temporary starter of the same race. Does anyone know what happened to him as well? Any info would be appreaciated. Thanks.
Beth, I live in the NYC area and on the radio, 95.5 FM there is a weekday morning DJ named Todd Pettingill. He is always talking about his trips up to Saratoga in August. I have always wondered if there was any relation to the starter. It would be a long shot but wouldn't it be great if he turned out to be a relation? I beleive thier webiste is:
www.plj.com
I know this is a board about Man O'War, but I'm so excited about this I'd like to share it with y'all.
A few weeks ago I went to this website, poetry.com. From what I understood on the site, you submit a poem of yours and if they thought it's good enough they'd put it online. Well I just got a letter in from them yesterday, and they said that it was certified as a semi-finalist in their International Open Poetry Conteset!! AND (this one I Loved the most) it's going to be published in a book their making that's come out this summer!! If y'all want to see the poem, go to http://www.poetry.com and in the box for Last name type Chaisson and for first name type Beth. There you'll see the name of my poem "The End of the World" (2 listings of it, choose the first one). I hope ya'll like it. I'm excited!!
"Man O' War, Sir Barton Match Race Glass-MINT (I'm bidding on this one!)"
I saw this last week. Decided not to bother (esp. since my PC at home won't allow us to look at eBay anymore - it ended Sun). But I did post about the glass somewhere (was it here - duh!) on Thurs or Fri if anyone was interested. I thought it was unique - what chance a small track would bother to commemorate a long-ago race?
I just checked it today to see if anyone bid. I thought that eBay moniker looked familiar, but couldn't place it. Also explains the "0" rating - you just signed up? (Normally I recognize the racing bidders.)
I know there are many who follow the Man O' War line via Mr. Prospector so I thought I would relay this story.
I took a snow day yesterday and was reading an old issue of "Practical Horseman" and there was a great story on this hunter/jumper trainer who goes to auctions and buys racehorse rejects for his students to retrain and show as showring hunters. The amateur rider he took with him to the auction fell in love with a big red chestnut with a kind eye (they also noted his tatoo under his lip verifying he was a registered Thoroughbred). They outbid the horsemeat people (dirt cheap--I forget the exact price--around $1,000? ) and when they brought him home and looked up his pedigree, found out he was by Mr. Prospector. This rescued horse went on to not only jump well, but well enough qualify for nationals and place in them. He also won a conformation class. (His price now is probably in six figures I'll bet.) The woman said she didn't buy him to make money, so she wasn't selling him. (You can't look his pedigree up via his show name, as AHSA allows people to rename show horses anything they want in the hunter ring--lucky because some of the registered TB names are quite awful!). I don't have the article with me to work, so can't give more details. If anyone's interested, I'll get more info from the magazine.
I thought it was a great rescue story for the Man O' War line! The horse is gorgeous too, (they had many photos) I thought he looked a lot like Fair Play. I noted besides being that super orange/red he had the huge wide almost circular shaped nostrils I always notice on FP and many his offspring. Makes you wonder how many horses with such potential end up sadly in slaughter. (I've done my part in such rescues with my own purchase of a orange/red Quarter Horse race reject with Man O' War blood 4x.) Wish more people would do this rather than breeding more--Save what's out there already! The trainer said he does these auction purchases all the time and said he has only had to return 3 that were just not retrainable, or not sound enough.
WOW...I really enjoyed your site. I just discovered that my very first horse, is a descendent of Man O' War. Great Grandsire ( x 6) is very distant however it is very exciting to me since I am expecting my first foal from her this spring. She also has Jet Deck as her Great Grandsire and Moon Deck and Top Deck in her pedigree so this is all very exciting indeed. Thanks for all the great information. Feel free to visit my website at www.angelfire.com/al3/dtinsley
A new site was added to the Man O'War webring last night! Go to the site list at http://nav.webring.yahoo.com/hub?ring=bigred1&list and you'll see the list of sites in the webring, alone with the new site!
Have always admired Man O' War..When I was a younger person always wanted a Thoughbred,but things just didn't go the way I wanted.Got caught up in showing Walking Horses,but no longer do it just them for the pleasure and my back wouldn't take all the posting I would on a horse that trots.
We raise only natural gaited Walking Horse,if they do not walk naturally they are sent off the farm..
Ben
I have a registered quarter horse mare who is a decendant of Man O'War! She is due to foal any day, we hope that the foal will possess some of the qualities and characteristics of her famous great-great-great, etc. grandsire!
I am so happy I found this website. My father and grandmother grew up in Kentucky and was fortunate to have been able to meet Man O'War. I will always remember his story. If he only had a camera in those days!!!
Click on the GIFT SHOP button on the left hand side. There you will see the current auctions for the Exceller Fund which are being held on e-bay. You can link directly to the auctions from our Gift Shop.
As ANY serious fan of MAN O' WAR knows, the Cooper & Treat book is not only one of the most comprehensive books on MOW (a lot more information and drama than the new Thoroughbred legends book), but it is EXTREMLY hard to find and usually very expen$ive!
This book is an ex-library book, so it may not auction for as much as some of the other copies you might have seen. But who cares about the outside...it's the INSIDE that's important. Photos, recounts of his races, workouts, interviews with jockeys and track personnel who saw him first hand, A COMPLETE set of Daily Racing Form charts for all of his races, a listing of all the horses he defeated, his time records, listings of his foals each year, and a COMPLETE tale-male and tale-female family history - going all the way back to the Godolphin Arabian and the tap-root mares!
HURRY - the auction will be over by February 19th!!!
All the info I got on the horses, including Man O'War I got from using a search engine software called Copernic. It uses about 7 search engines in the search. All I can recomend is use a search engine.
Does anyone know how Man O' War got his name? God is referred to as a 'Man of War' in a chapter in Exodus and I was curious if the horse's name was taken from that scripture. Would greatly appreciate an answer. Thanks much.
Actually Man O'War was named by Augustas Belmont's wife (he bred the sire and dam that creatured Man O'War). Belmont was off to the war, Man O'WAr was born during WWI. So his wife originally named Man O'War but it was "My Man O'War" and she named him with her husband in mind! It wasn't till he was being auctioned that they dropped "My" in his name and left him "Man O'War" there is no biblical significance to his name that I know of.
I'm curious because old ships of the line were often called men of war. Since this was wartime and battleships (what some would call men of war) were the flagships of a navy, I've always wondered if this was tied in.
In other words, a double entendre - how she viewed her husband and also borrowing a naval phrase.
East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet. The same can be said about Secretariat and Man'O War , and you can throw in Citation , John Henry and a host of other champions who dominated the opposition of their era. I feel that even if there was a way of lining up MOW and SEC in a match race the race would not go ahead because it would mean the end of speculation and arguments and opinions that have raged for decades. Imagine if MOW was beaten , would you all accept that Sec was better? or if SEC was beaten , would his fans concede ?, I don't think so,
They'd/you'd be calling for a re-match ( the track didn't suit him,the distance was not suitable, the jockey rode him like a wounded indian.. etc ) until they/you got the result that suits.
With a new century having just dawned, there may be another champion waiting in the wings to stake his claim to the greatest of all time ( but he'll have just as much opposition off the track as on it ) !
True, but in order to be truly great, the track doesn't really matter. It does, but what happens off the track matters, too.
Say there was an on track champion, but off track enjoyed biting and kicking people/horses, he probably wouldn't be the best champion ever.
You could basically sum it up with what, Farley(I think) said in his book about Man o' War. But I think Will Harbut said it, too.
"In order to be another Man o' War, you have to break all the records, break down all the other racers, who would have been champions any time except his/hers, and then be an equally great sire. Then you will have another Man o' War."
I believe that Man O' War is the greatest horse of all time... i can not even express in words what i think he is. I belive he was MUCH MUCH better then scretariat and i just feel so much rage when secretariat gets a lot more publicity then he does......just like will harbut says he is the mostest hoss their ever wus.
You're asking that question on the wrong Forum! This is a Forum of Man o' War fans! We believe Man o' War is #1 (as did the Bloodhorse!) and nothing will change our minds.
I have all the respect in the world for Secretariat, he is also a great horse, but Man o' War is still #1 for me!
The other part, I guess, that is bothersome for many is that a lot of Secretariat fans seem to discount all of racing history prior to Secretariat. It's a funny dichotomy - All the race horses prior to Secretariat were sort of glorifed platers, and then suddenly the 70's blossomed with all time champs - and then all the horses since have declined.
Sorry - but the Thoroughbred did not magically change into a drastically superior animal from 1920 to 1970, and then just as suddenly disintegrate into mediocraty from 1980 to present.
As for the times - if you really want a yardstick, take a look at the times in Europe that haven't changed that much from the early part of the 20th Century to now. And Euro horses can come over here and whip our butt, so it's not like Euro's are plow animals. The difference is that England and Europe have not juiced up their tracks like we have done in the U.S.
If you think there is little difference between the track and the shoes that Man o' War ran with and on vs. conditions in the 1970's, then I suggest you try this: Wear a pair of old P.F. Flyers and run 100 yards on a schoolyard blacktop. Now, put on a pair of Nikes (fine - 1970's Nikes) and run the same hundred yards over an Olympic Track surface. Think your times would be the same?
We've made vast improvements in shoeing and balancing in the shoes, and we've also made vast improvements in soil conditioning, drainage, composition, etc. compared to the steel shoes and plowed dirt roads they raced over 80 years ago.
it might of been either horses race,either might of won''but'''m.o.w. had a 29 foot stride and was a front runner,and he had great racing luck ,and won 20 of 21 starts.i'm partial to man o' war for to many reasons to list here''.it's also possible that one horse may have had a poor start''or may have stumbled,or'' had an off day secretariat was a hard horse to defeat and without saracasim sec'lost 5 times man o'war lost one ''fluke''as a baby 2 year old,good luck and study the facts''
either horse may have lost or won,poor start,a stumble'bad track conditions or other reasons.but m.o.w.was a front runner with a 29 ft stride''and took 20 of 21 races,he did lose once as a baby two year old ''and was sideways at the gate,i don't fault secretariat when i state he lost ''5 times'' he was a great horse.remember m.o.w. was a ''mudder'' and could run on a wet track or a baked one too he also had great racing luck,and also a great fighting heart.we will never know for certain who would of won?but i'd put my money on big red ''man o'war,good luck in your reading and study the records and facts.
These two horses are unlike.....yet alike in many ways.
Their Birthdays is one way.
Man o' War-March 27 or 29th, I believe.
Secretariat-March 30th, i think.
Very similar birthdays.
Their color
Man o' War-a red chestnut sort
Secretariat-a red chestnut, about the same, maybe a bit darker or lighter.
Their courage-
I see little, if any differnce here, but many horses share their courage. Ruffian, who died a nose ahead of her greatest challenge, Foolish Pleasure. Go for Wand, who died a bit ahead of The Queen(whats her name, Bayoha or something like that?)
Their size, owners, and offspring are different, but they were very much alike. Man o' War is a bit ahead, though, I believe. Like someone(Will Harbut??? Walter Farley? I read it in Farley's book, I think)) said, to be another Man o' War, you have to be a GREAT racer, and a GREAT sire, then you will be another Man o' War. Not 'till then.
Man o' War and Secretariat were actually quite similar in size. Both were large, flaming red giants of horses who generally dominated their foes.
Man o' War gets the nod in my book as he did not have to offer excuses for any of his races. His lone defeat is STILL the subject of controversy, and there were whispers at the time that the race had been "fixed." The Jockey Club denied the licenses of both Loftus and Knapp (jockey on Upset) in the year following that infamous race.
Secretariat really shouldn't be vilified as sometimes we MAN O' WAR devotees may tend to so (perhaps as backlash to the fervor of the Secretariat sect....) as he also turned in some amazing performances.
A friend of mine summed up the difference between Man o' War and Secretariat in one very succinct sentence... "Secretariat's Belmont performance was what Man o' War turned in almost EVERY time he set foot on the track!"
BTW - Bayakoa was the Queen in that fateful race with Go For Wand. I was a huge Bayakoa fan, but I found no pleasure in her victory that day. It was sad that one gallant filly gave her life for the sport, and the other gallant mare would forever be associated with that tragedy.
Yes....I have read a lot about them both.......but I just can't decide! I read Farley's book, and I've read sooo many books about them both. So many special horses deserve a high rating. Go for Wand, Ruffian, Landaluce, Man o' War, Secretariat, Citation, Charismatic, and too many to name. Bold Ruler, Seattle Slew, Bewitched, Cigar, War Admiral, War Relic, and waay too many to name.
BTW:I knew her name was something like that! Waay too many names to keep straight.
Why must we try to campare these two great horses??Can't we appreciate each of their Greatness?? I have been a horse racing and thoroughbred fan my whole life.What Secretariat gave to me in his performances and personality was to be a life long devotion to this great sport of ours.man O War was 50 years before that. We NEED Great Champions to encourage new people to enter the game.Secretariat was a great Champion, he ran at a different time when things had changed such as drug testing, track surfaces, all year racing, and competition from all over the country.I also think that Man O War was a excellent horse, perhaps the best we have seen, but why must people demean one in favor of the other.I still get goosebumps nearly 30 years later at seeing Secretariat's Belmont.We are told of Man O War's greatness, see a few photographs and see his many victories and records on paper.I think the difference is actually having seen Secretariat, his look of eagles and intellegence, his flowing, daisy cutting stride.Also, Secretariat helped the counrty recover from the Watergate scandle. A Big Red Horse in Blue and White silks. The financial trouble at the Meadow prevented us the pleasure of seeing him run as a 4 year old. He did win going short, long and on the Turf. What I wouldn't give to see another like him.A grand 2 year old that becomes a great champion.Lest us not forget that Secretariat kept on getting up after his Triplke Crown trail, he went right on racing in just a few weeks time.No long vacation and months inbetween races.No Sir, they don't seem to make them like that anymore, and from a small breeding program too, not buing everything that looks good at a sale, making the most of what you have.A small farm with back to back derby winners, they must have been doing it right.I will never forget Secretariat and I am soooo thankful for the chance to see what a truly great horse is made of. Thank You, horsetails.
..I guess what we MOW devotees think of is... wouldn't it have been grand to have SEEN Man o' War? All the superlatives that have been bestowed upon Secretariat, we feel in our hearts that Man o' War embodied those to an even greater degree.
I guess it is only human nature to try to compare, and yes, utimately it is a fruitless effort ... BUT sometimes it is LOTS of fun!
Where I draw the line is the vilification of Secretariat. He was an amazing horse and a great champion, but Man o' War still remains #1 in my heart.
Maybe it was the timing, but seeing Secretariat race entranced me into Thoroughbred racing forever.His near faultless conformation, his effortless, ground skimming action and intellegence. He was absolutly beauty in motion.
Perhaps, if I had been around to see Man O War race, I would have this place in my heart for him, but for me, in this era,Secretariat captured a generation.He was awesome, but non the less mortal, like us all.His Belmont Stakes effort brought goose bumps to my arms and tingles down my spine, They certainly don't make them like that anymore.Has money taken us so far away from Sport that now we are actually incapable of having horses of that caliber who can stand up to rigorous tests?? We ourselves have created the monsters, I'm afraid!!!
Man O War was awesome. No other horse has matched his record or complete dominace if his competition. He deserves his accolades. But I am just saying, "can't we appreciate them both" as they are probabally the closest to Wonder Horses, who only come to grace our presence every once in a great while.Perhaps we will be lucky enough to see another one. Let's hope he is chestnut with some white on his face. Thanks Friends
Why must we try to campare these two great horses??Can't we appreciate each of their Greatness?? I have been a horse racing and thoroughbred fan my whole life.What Secretariat gave to me in his performances and personality was to be a life long devotion to this great sport of ours.man O War was 50 years before that. We NEED Great Champions to encourage new people to enter the game.Secretariat was a great Champion, he ran at a different time when things had changed such as drug testing, track surfaces, all year racing, and competition from all over the country.I also think that Man O War was a excellent horse, perhaps the best we have seen, but why must people demean one in favor of the other.I still get goosebumps nearly 30 years later at seeing Secretariat's Belmont.We are told of Man O War's greatness, see a few photographs and see his many victories and records on paper.I think the difference is actually having seen Secretariat, his look of eagles and intellegence, his flowing, daisy cutting stride.Also, Secretariat helped the counrty recover from the Watergate scandle. A Big Red Horse in Blue and White silks. The financial trouble at the Meadow prevented us the pleasure of seeing him run as a 4 year old. He did win going short, long and on the Turf. What I wouldn't give to see another like him.A grand 2 year old that becomes a great champion.Lest us not forget that Secretariat kept on getting up after his Triplke Crown trail, he went right on racing in just a few weeks time.No long vacation and months inbetween races.No Sir, they don't seem to make them like that anymore, and from a small breeding program too, not buing everything that looks good at a sale, making the most of what you have.A small farm with back to back derby winners, they must have been doing it right.I will never forget Secretariat and I am soooo thankful for the chance to see what a truly great horse is made of. Thank You, horsetails.
Man'O'War IS a great horse. Imagine carrying all that weight when you were that old and making all those records.Man'O'War rules!!!!I mean, any horse that could carry all that weight and is that SWEET,is awesome.MAN'O'WAR definitly hits the top of my favorites list!!!!
MAN O WAR WAS A GRAET HORSE AND HERES SOME RESONS WHY.
MAN O WAR WAS BORN A FEW MINUTES BEFORE MIDNIGHT ,ON A COOLED DAY ON MARCH 29 AND GREW AT GREAT SPEED AND GREW INTO THE BIGEST AND STRONGEST RACE HORSE EVER.HIS CHESTNUT RED COAT GAVE HIM HIS BRAVE AND EVER REMEMBERD NICKNAME BIG RED!! HE IS A HORSE TO REMEMBER AND WE WILL NEVER FORGET HIM EVEN THOUGH HE LEFT US IN ARE MIND AND SPERIT HE IS STANDING STRONG AND RUNING EVERY RACE HE CAN AND WE WILL NEVER FORGET HIM WE LOVE YOU MAN O WAR
Man 'O War...Truly The Most Icredible Horse That EVER Lived!
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Hey Guys, I'm just writing to say that I really love this page dedicated to Man 'O War. He was an amasing race horse and he aslo tops my list for the greatest race horses that ever lived!!! I have seen a few video clips of some of his races and I must tell, that they left my sitting in awe! He just blew is oppenents away!It's really unfortunate that we never had the chance to actually see him for ourselves! It would have been a real site to see!!! :oP
To Man 'O War...a tribute to the greatest horse that ever set foot on this earth! May we always remember how great you were and how much pleasure you gave to those who had the oppertunity to see you in action!!!
Thanks a million
Candice
aka: CandyCat
i love what you rout about man o war read mine some time if you whant mine is called sweet man o war yours i probly better but i woudlove if you rout to me bye
Affirmed (last triple crown winner) dies at age 26
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My father, who knows how big a horseracing fan I am, made me aware of an article in our local news paper: The News and Observer (Jan. 13, 2001), in the sports section. I couldn't find the article online but if you can get a hold of this NC news paper it's on page 4C. You can also see an almost carbon copy of it at USAToday.com or go here http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/sorhfs27.htm
so y'all can read about the death of the last triple crown winner of the 20th Century.
Imagine my surprise getting a large packet of info from a new member in my cemetery group this weekend when I found a connection to racing in his 1st sentence to me. No less, my very favorite part of racing.
This gentleman is interested in finding out if his ancestors were buried (and still are hopefully) on the plantation they worked - in the same part of ground which became Glen Riddle Farm. Yup, the farm in Berlin, MD where Man O'War was broken.
Hey Ol' Line Rebel,
Sorry to take a month + to write back, but this is my first time visiting this very fun website forum. I have seen an old human cemetery on Glen Riddle Farm (MD)--it is very, very old (maybe late 1700s, early 1800s--nothing current or even close).
If you'd like to e-mail me, perhaps I can help your cemetery-seeking friend.
Dear Rebel, I know where, Do you know who?? Am trying to research this as we speak.There may be a greater future for this hidden treasure, we need the help of history to make it work,please have this person contact me.The developer who ownes the property is adamant about nobody poking around, he is afraid that we will find out that this Farm has either Colonial or Native American artifacts, which would make it quite "Historic" and prevent any development, currently, the farm is slated for 650 homes and a Golf Course, but enviornmental issues and red tape have prevented him from getting all the permits.There is still a chance to save "Glen Riddle", if enough of us care.Time is taking her toll, but the magnificent grandeur can still be felt, even with overgrown grass and falling down buildings. Thanks
Funny, today I am copying letters I just got regarding this issue to send to my Eastern Shore Director. I don't know if it's the developer proper, but it's from Taylor Construction in VA. The short letter says that they are preserving the graveyard per law - although, our member is also interested in slave graves which are not always marked to start w/. (The marked graveyard in question is that of the early owners - Taylors, haha.)
I always was interested if anything remained of the Riddle farm itself - track, barns, etc. I wonder if anyone has brought up the Man O'War connection here.
Thanks to both of you for replying; I'll try to get in touch w/you on e-mail from home.
There are a number of buildings that remain on the Riddle Farm. The developer has said he will preserve them, but I am not so sure you can trust what he says. Indoor track and I believe something referred to as the starter's barn.
My father was Sam Riddle's doctor in the latter part of his life. He always said that his house was really something to see. Even a hedge maze behind it that I wandered as a boy. Unfortunately the house burned down many years ago.
This is merely for my own interest.....i am curious as to whom else has dealt with this within the racing proffesion....i am a physiotherapist on some of the top stake runners in the country and can only shake my head at the state of those animals whose bodies are used and abused like a lab rat......I have witnessed first hand the long term detrimental effects on these animals, regardless of what people claim.....we have top runners who are running on benzoylecgonine(a metabolite of cocaine) and to reduce anxiety are given lidocaine (a local anastethic)......these animals have not only the ability but the desire to run drug free....it saddens me to see capitalism in full effect at the cost of these animals health.......
i am curious as to other's thoughts on this issue....
I love horseracing, and I hate it when I hear about people using drugs on these amazing animals. Yes I do believe they should be drug free and I can only imagine how the horses must be after the race because of the drugs, and I DON'T like what I imagined!
More needs to be done in protecting sport animals like horses and dogs and what is done to them during and after their "time".
hey beth i think that you are so right about not using drugs after the horses stop racing.i was waching animal planet and i was waching 'horse talls' and they had a ranch that was for retired race horses. look one up some time
I just reread Walter Farley's novel about Man O'War, having found it among other childhood books. Quite a horse! Certainly seems to be the greatest ever, by what I've learned since reading the book. Too bad he didn't race 'til he was a little older.
I am looking for a really cool photo that I could enlarge and frame. Not a cheesy poster--something kinda classy. If any folks know of something please do let me know at wlewis@shambhala.org.
Try the Bloodhorse's Exclusively Equine website. www.exclusivelyequine.com
I have purchased 8 beautiful photos and have them all framed! They usually run about $20.00 for an 8 x 10.
Also, ebay always has some terrific photos... just use Man o' War as your keyword!
Eighty years after retiring, still the greatest thoroughbred
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I, like you, Beth, can't get enough about Man O' War. I am eternally fascinated on why great athletes, whether they are human or horse, are great. Certainly no one disputes that Secretariat's enlarged heart gave him an advantage, yet that does not take away any of his legend. I am 42 years young, and remember his Belmont blowout in '73 like it was yesterday. I knew I was witnessing greatness in action.
I applaud you for keeping and building on the memory of Man O' War. Yes, it is too bad we don't have enough video from his heyday.
One question: has any other thoroughbred ever been known to exhibit such a long stride as Man O' War's 28 foot stride. I may have a lot to learn about horse racing, but I do know that a longer stride is more efficient in every respect than taking shorter, more frequent strides.
What amazes me is that Man O' War was really never pushed to the limit or extended in any of his races (over the whole race). And doing all this against the best competition of his day, carrying 15 to 20 more pounds than his peers. I have read that a pound of extra weight is worth 1/5 of a second. No wonder Man O' War is considered the head of the class.
Keep up your great web site. There are more Man O' War fans out here than you realize. Greg
Something here triggered a memory of listening to a pre-derby radio show and one of the commentators talking about the derby favorite's tremendous stride. It was either Nashua or Native dancer. There is very little written about these two. 30 feet keeps coming to mind (or was it the Black?). In any case, has anyone come across this kind of info about those two? I'm leaning toward Nashua.
Never heard about that, so can't verify for you. But I have read accounts of Man's stride being up to 30 ft or more. This is besides the more accepted measure of 28 ft (frequently posted here). Just don't recall off hand where I saw this.
But I'd be interested in hearing if these horses were measured at such lengths! I have a soft spot for both of them.
Swaps beat Nashua in the Derby and may have been the favorite. This is pure memory and I'm not sure at all. But it occurs to me that Swaps may have been the most overlooked and under-rated thoroughbred in the second half of the century. His race records are readily available and speak for him but fine details like length of stride are hard to locate. The 1956 racing manual might have something more.
WILLY knapp upsets jockey stated[i quote him] i could see man o'war coming like a giant red demon and tossing those 30 foot strides and if i had moved over a inch he man o'war would of went by us in a blink of an eye' he was the one horse that should have retired undefeated ,sometimes i wish i had of moved over .
Hi! I am totally facinated with Man O'War. Did he ever have any movies made about him? Does somebody own the rights to his name? I can't find any movies about him and I thought I would ask you.
thanks for your time
I know that my great-great-great uncle Harry Vititoe saddle broke and bridle broke Man O' War, but I can not find anything on the internet that states this. It is on the plaques that surround his grave at the Kentucky Horse Park. Can anyone help me get this information in print so my son can share it with his classmates? Thanks.
Get a copy of the Walter Farley book "Man o' War" - it's a fictionalized recount of Man o' War's life, but the book is pretty much true except for the character of Danny.
Harry Vititoe is prominently mentioned during the chapter recounting Man o' War's breaking and saddling. This account is also recalled in the book - MAN O WAR by Page Cooper & Roger Treat (it's interesting how much the Farley book parallel's this book btw) - however it's a lot easier to find the Farley book than the Cooper & Treat book.
If you would like to find a copy of the Farley book, you can try http://www.bookfinder.com and type in Farley for the author's name and MAN O WAR for the title. You should find a number of used bookstores selling a copy.
One further note - the Exceller Fund recently received another copy of the Cooper & Treat book which will go up for auction soon. This is an ex-library copy and has a non-standard cover with no dust jacket - but the contents, including photos, are the same as the regular copies.
Your great-great-great uncle was THE Harry Vititoe??? That's extraordinary! Do you have any scrap books or momentos that your family has kept? Any family members who have heard stories from your g-g-g-uncle?
Your post is like a Christmas Gift to the list.
THE Harry Vititoe's relative! How exciting! I recognized your last name immediately--as any regular to this list would.
Welcome! If you can get either books mentioned in the other post you would absolutely enjoy them. The Walter Farley book is all over "e-Bay" usually, you could get a used original hard cover edition. I only see the paperback in the stores anymore, don't think they produce the hard cover anymore (anyone else know?).
The Cooper and Treat book is the best! Thanks to friends on this list, I was able to get one. It's not cheap, but esp. for YOUR family history it would be worth it.
If your Great, great, great, uncle hadn't done such a good job starting Man O' War's career out on a successful note--maybe we all wouldn't have this web page! A great breaking and initial training can't be underestimated, as anyone working with good horses knows.
Hope you enjoy this page, it has the nicest people all with a common interst in the greatest racehorse.
Bloodhorse wrote me back negatively also, but gave some video links. I haven't had time to check them out but here is copy of the e-mail I got back if anyone wants to check them out:
_______________________
Dear Richanna:
Thank you for your query about a Man o' War video. Unfortunately, The Blood-Horse does not have plans at this time to produce a video on the topic. We agree that it would be a worthwhile subject but we presently are concentrated our efforts on books about historic horses.
--Jackie Duke
Well I'm not going to be on for a couple of weeks because I'm going on vacation! I'll be back around Jan.1 or so, so I'd like to wish everyone HAPPY HOLIDAYS and HAPPY NEW YEAR! See everyone next year!
From my research paper, hope it goes through and retains it's table form! I tried adding dashes so the web page wouldn't remove the tabs and smash everything together
I was trying to e-mail a copy of the MOW clip I down loaded this past summer for Phil (see June 23) but Yahoo limits my attachements to 1.5 meg and the clip is 3.3meg. The page where i found it is no more. If any of you also have a copy and have a better e-mail send it to him. I looked at it again and in it is a boy or young man who is observing as Harbut holds MOW's lead.
You never know.
I remember seeing a TV program featuring the Jefford's daughter, I think she bred and owned Flatterer a steeple chaser. Anyway I think they may have some ideas for you and maybe some photos or even film. I'd like to know how you make out. Good Luck!
The Jeffords family still owns the remaining portion....
by maria
of Faraway Farm! When I was in KY last yeat Shannon Wolfsram mentioned that the remaining portion of the Farm is still under their ownership. THe Man O' War stallion barn, etc is owned by Franklin Groves. Unfortunately, I did not write down the name of the farm!! However, Shannon and Dale can definately tell Phil!
I remember seeing a TV program featuring the Jefford's daughter, I think she bred and owned Flatterer a steeple chaser. Anyway I think they may have some ideas for you and maybe some photos or even film. I'd like to know how you make out. Good Luck!
that's twice in 30 days I lost my connection just as I clicked "respond" when I reconnected the message was still there. Beth have you got a way to clean this up?
I too am a big fan of Man O' War. But my admiration for Big Red is more sentimental. My grandfather "J.T. Blackburn" took care of MOW after Will Harbut died at Faraway farm. On MOW's 29th birthday, Paramount Pictures (Newsreels) came to the farm to film the celebration which included a "carrot" cake which was fed to him by my grandfather. I have a video copy of "MOW's 30th birthday" and "MOW, Kentucky Says Farewell" (his funeral) which also came from the Paramount Pictures Newsreels. "J.T" also worked with the actual burial of MOW. I am trying to locate a copy of this 29th birthday video. That day, my 16 year old dad skipped school to attend the celebration. There is a slight chance I might get to see my Dad as well as my grandfather in this video. Both were dedicated horsemen and have since passed away. The researchers at Grinberg Film Library have this film indexed but can't find the actual film. If anyone out there knows where I might further research, please email me at ptb2047@msn.com THANKS
Phil... this might be a long shot but definitely worth looking into. Franklin Groves recently purchased the portion of Faraway farm that contains the stud barn and office. Called Man O' War Farm it is located on Huffan Mill Rd and Russell Cave Pike in Lexington (as you must know!!) I visited there last October and met with farm managers Shannon (husband) and Dale(wife) Wolfsram. They mentioned how Mr. Groves was preserving the Farm and restoring it to look as it did when MOW was alive. Shannon took me into the office and showed me all kinds of MOW memorabilia. It might be possible that they can help you in your search. If I can locate the farm number I will email it.. otherwise, I called the Lexington visitors Bureau to obtain the farm's phone number as it wasn't listed thru the regular directory.
Good Luck with your search... Please let us know if you find the video... all of us who visit Beth's page would love to see it (I'm sure). What your grandfather and father must have seen!!?!??!?! WOW!
Also, I think you would find tremendous interest in that video - at least from the folks who frequent this message board!!!! (Count me in! And let us know if you find it!)
I too would be VERY interested in the video! It's almost gold to those of us on this board who are die hard Man O'War fans. The fact I found Man O'War's last race online was amazing to me, but this video would top it for everyone!
Beth, I have on one vhs format tape the clip from Paramount of MOW's 30th Birthday and the clip of his funeral. If I can find the clip of his 29th birthday, I would include it on the same tape and share with anyone who wants a copy. I need to research the info one fan sent me about Faraway/MOW Farm....thanks to all who have read about my search.
I recall an NYRA Ad from a few years ago that featured MAN O' WAR and his ability to "terrorize" and "break the heart" of any horse who stepped on the track to oppose him.
The Ad featured some VERY short clips of MOW in the paddock and/or winners circle. I had written to the NYRA a few years back to ask if I could get a copy of that commercial (it was shown on ESPN on a few times) and was told that the film was on a different format than VHS, but if I wanted to pay some $$$ I could have a copy made on VHS.
Unfortunately, at that time I didn't have $$$ for what amounted to 15 seconds of film, and I have since lost the letter.
If ANYONE has connections with the NYRA marketing or publicity department, perhaps they still have this footage?
What a GREAT video feature it would be - a montage of all the still photos of MOW that exist combined with all known film of him, and narration of his exploits on the track and the stud barn.
I have my credit card or checkbook standing by...!!!!
Hello--just found you on the web. I have just purchased a mare that is a Man O'War descendant. She is a Canadian Warmblood and she is only five generations removed from the Great One. Man O'War sired War Admiral when he was 17, who sired War Jeep when he was 8, who sired Queen's Own at age 9, who was the father of my mare's mom at age of 21. I am very lucky to have this wonderful mare, and hope to see her descendants in the Olympics!
I would be very interested in purchasing copies of any videos you have. Thanks!
I found out about this today when some news was emailed to me. Chris Antley was found dead, from a blow to the head. Y'all can see the article at http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/sorhfs18.htm they are still looking for the killer, they're suspecting a homicide I think.
I really enjoyed your website of Man o'War. I, too, have been in love with the super horse since I was a little girl, and find it hard to convince people who are ignorant in the subject of horseracing that it was he, not Secretariat or Citation, that ruled the track and that it will stay that way for an incredibley long time, possibley forever
Certainly your love for Man O'War is not misplaced, and neither is mine for Secretariat. And I do compliment you on the design of your web page.
Apparently the ESPN voting panel agreed with you, and many others, when they voted "Big Red I" Horse of the Century [yes, I now consider that I officially am the first to consider dubbing these champions "Big Red I & II"].
Unfortunately, in our society and in the world, people seem dissatisfied with simply the pure appreciation and enjoyment of outstanding talents as represented by Man O'War and Secretariat.
Their presence on earth seems insufficient to the masses, and so "greatest" contests are staged which actually prove little under close scrutiny.
You mention iron versus aluminum shoes and different track conditions and carrying greater weights all as being burdens to MOW. It is certain that these factors did make a difference, but that difference is essentially unmeasurable now -- buried in the sands of time.
Even though a supercomputer might be programmed to attempt an analysis of all available data and stage an imaginary race between them, would its result really add to the great emotional thrills that both champions gave to millions of respective fans? I doubt it. And I suspect that, at most, such a staged race would result in a win by only a head either way. Does this or would this define for all time the "greatness" of either? In my opinion, no!
Let us all simply learn to rejoice at the presence on earth of two magnificent creatures such as these -- and hope that the unpredictable winds of chance and genetics might one day give us another champion of their calibre. Then we shall all thrill again -- and we can renew our eternal debate about equine greatness.
I can congratulate you that your favorite "won" the voting over my favorite and still not love Secretariat one jot the less.
Secretariat was a great horse..but i am hopelessly devoted to Man O'War...u knwo the feeeling..i won't admit that any horse was better than him because i don['t believe there was one..and there never will be...
In light of the current voting fiasco in the US perhaps a recount might be in order, I mean how many voters in that poll voted for MOW but really meant to vote for Secretariat?. How many chads were not punched through correctly ?,how many MOW fans were stacked in amongst the vote counters, and how many voters voted more than once ?.
In fact chuck, if I were you I wouldn't concede just yet as there are still too many avenues left to examine.
The frightening thing is that like the presidential election , this could go on forever- just kidding.
There was a skit on Saturday Night Live many years ago. If featured Phil Hartman going to heaven and being greated by St. Peter. St. Peter tell's Hartman he will answer any questions he has of the universe.
Phil asks some of the philosophical questions of the ages and St. Peter answers. Then he gets to specific issues. One of his questions was:
"Who was better - Man o' War or Secretariat?"
St. Peter answers "Man o' War of course!" And Phil nods his head in silent agreement!
I about fell out of my CHAIR when I saw that! If ANYONE else remembers that show, can you remember when that episode was originally aired?
I'm going to take a bit of a break for a bit but please continue to send me horses that you think should be on the list. I'll add them and when I can I'll research them as well.'
It's just that I"ve been doing so much research on horses that I'm about to go nuts. So I"m going to take a break for a while before I start again. But I'll still check up on this page so please keep the posts coming
