Hello. This is Big Red's Stable, a board that can be used for both as a chat board and a guestbook. Use it either way but I'd appreciate it if you would leave a message here so people can get together and talk about horses, horseracing, or whatever. Thank-you :-)
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Dreams Come True
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Dear Beth,
Hi Beth, how are you? May this message of mine finds you and your love ones in good health.
Wow! What can I say or to tell you? I don't know what words I will begin with, I'm very happy & felt excited right now because I found your website, thanks to our Lord. I'm leaving here in the Philippines, horse is my favorite animal since I open my mind but just a dream to have one because its very expensive. I just riding by hiring in Tagaytay & Baguio, I want big like a racing horse for pretending that I'm a jockey. I was very happy when I saw the movie of Seabiscuit, wow, its amazing. Then I'm starting to search the family circle of Seabiscuit, then here right now I saw it, the ManO'War. Its my dream came true, thanks for this.
Belmont Stakes Winner Jazil Suffers a Leg Injury
Jul 19, 6:17 PM (ET)
http://sports.iwon.com/news/07192006/v2295.html
NEW YORK (AP) - Jazil became the second winner of a Triple Crown race to suffer a leg injury.
The Belmont Stakes winner suffered a bruised right hind canon bone and has been taken out of training for at least 30 days, according to the Daily Racing Form. The problem was detected following a workout at Belmont Park earlier this month.
The injury, while not nearly as a severe as Kentucky Derby winner Barbaro's life-threatening injury in the Preakness, will prevent Jazil from running in the $1 million Travers Stakes at Saratoga on Aug. 26.
Jazil will recuperate at Shadwell Farm in Lexington, Ky.
I found a few articles about Barbaro, if anyone is interested. Here is just a portion of the article, plus the address so you can copy and paste the URL and read the rest of it:
Barbaro's Health Encourages Trainer
Horse Remains In Stable Condition, But Odds Of Survival Still Not Great
KENNETT SQUARE, Pa., July 18, 2006
(AP) Barbaro trainer Michael Matz was encouraged Tuesday by the colt's recent stability in his health, though he noted the Kentucky Derby winner's condition could still turn at any time.
"He could take a turn for the worse or get an infection again, you just don't know," Matz said in a telephone interview. "It's just a slow road now. If he keeps having days like he's having now, then hopefully everything will be fine."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/18/sportsline/main1815281.shtml
Barbaro's Trainer Encouraged by Signs of Stability
Jul 18, 7:08 PM (ET)
By DAN GELSTON
KENNETT SQUARE, Pa. (AP) - Barbaro's trainer knows better than to get his hopes up too high.
Though encouraged by the good reports on Kentucky Derby winner the last few days, Michael Matz knows that could change at any time.
"He could take a turn for the worse or get an infection again, you just don't know," Matz said in a telephone interview Tuesday. "It's just a slow road now. If he keeps having days like he's having now, then hopefully everything will be fine."
http://sports.iwon.com/news/07182006/v0651.html
Barbaro Still Stable, But With Spring in His Step
Jul 17, 5:49 PM (ET)
By DAN GELSTON
KENNETT SQUARE, Pa. (AP) - Barbaro has a little spring in his sling.
The Kentucky Derby winner squirms in his own safety device, like a child trying to break free from a jumper, and he even sits on his damaged hind legs, the way dogs do when they beg for treats.
Those are encouraging signs for sure for the ailing 3-year-old colt. But the odds of Barbaro's full recovery from a severe case of laminitis and a reconstructed right hind leg are really no better than they were a week ago.
http://sports.iwon.com/news/07172006/v8874.html
Yes there is another Man O' War book. It's called:
Man O' War: A Legend Like Lightening
by Dorothy Ours
I haven't had a chance to read it yet to be able to say one way or the other about it, but Laura Hillenbrand (the author of Seabiscuit) seems to realy like it because a quote of hers is on the cover.
The state I live in use to not allow gambling (as of a few months ago it's allowed a lottery in the state) but you won't find a casino or anything like that unless it's on a Native American Indian Reservation. The reason for this is because of 2 things:
1. It's in "The South" meaning it's one of the southern states of America.
2. For the longest time it was an unspoken belief that the reason gambling wasn't allowed was a religious one since the state is part of the "Bible Belt" which is a group of states (mostly southern states) that has or had a reputation of being EXTREMELY religious about a back in the 1800's.
Back then in the 1800s it was believed that gambling was a sin. My state is one of the absolute last of the Bible Belt states to allow gambling (in this case the lottery) to come into the state legally for that reason. The law is so new we don't even have casinos in the state yet unless (like I said earlier) it's on a Native American Indian reservation.
Would it be possible for someone in your state to wager on horse racing in other states, by that I mean, can you open a betting account with a betting agency in a state that allows gambling, and wager on interstate race meetings through the net or phone betting ?
I would assume the answer would be yes since gambling is now allowed here, but because it was against the law for so long many people like myself (who grew up in this state) never really learned how to place a gambling wager, not even in horse racing. So the answer to your question is probably yes, but I wouldn't know how since I never learned how to place a wager because it was against the law here for so long.
I got into the love of horse racing because of my love for horses in general an I learned of the sport when the movie "The Black Stallion" first came out in movie theatres.
Every State in America had made gambling illegal by 1910 except for three which were Kentucky, Maryland and Virginia. Crooked gamblers found it too easy to fix horse races back then as their were no video cameras to patrol races, no way to detect drugs in horses and no central powerful Jockey Clubs to enforce rules for racing.
Politicians made hay with that and banned races all over America. New York reopened its race tracks in 1912 but only 4 states had limited seasons for racing.
So when MOW raced in 1919 and 1920 he had NOWHERE to travel. So mostly he stayed in New York but did journey to Maryland twice and once to Canada.
That meant all the top American horses were concentrated in 4 small states in 1919 and 1920 so MOW was beating the best horses available in the United States when they dared to run against him that is.
It is not only Beth’s state but 44 of the 48 then in America banned gambling.
Re: States which banned Horse racing and gambling.
by Tulloch
That's incredible, that there were only four states where horse racing was legal back in the 1920's, were there illegal race meets in the banned states ?
Wasn't that the same time that prohibition was also in force ?
Can't imagine an enviroment of no booze and no betting, think of all the fun that you guys missed out on back then, Eliott Ness has a lot to answer for !
Well a few banned States had limited race meets. Louisiana for one held races at Fair Grounds during the 1900`s because Fair Grounds in Metairie was the only race track in the deep South to survive the Civil War. Northern Armies used it as their own military base. Union Army Policy was to invade Race Tracks, Plantations, and Breeding Farms and capture the horses and use the best of them in the military and sell the others and ship them North.
Mobile Alabama was not taken by the North until the last week of the Civil War so Magnolia Race track survived in Alabama. Captain William Cottrell in Mobile was the only breeder left in the South. His foundation sire was a son of Lexington named Daniel Boone. Cottrell became the top breeder in the South largely because he was the only one left. With no place to race in the South Cottrell went to Saratoga to race. August Belmont I offered to name a race for Cottrell to reconcile North and South after the War. Cottrell was modest and would rather have his State honored so the race was named The Alabama. The Alabama is still run at Saratoga today and is the second oldest race for fillies in America.
Alabama and Louisiana had limited races during the banned period.
Prohibition was in effect as well from 1919 to 1934 so not liquor either!
Nick Zito himself hates the over breeding and over racing breakdowns. He has said it publicly many times. Check these unraced mares.
Batanoea--most expensive mare ever bred to MOW Cost Jeffords $11,529 in 1920 Haik to Reason line evolved from it.
Bathing Gal unraced bred to MOW produced Crusader 1926 Horse of Yesr
Many of MOW mares never raced.
When you've got as much money as the Jeffords had, you can afford to send unraced mares straight to the breeding barn.
After all, the likes of the Jeffords, Riddles, Whitneys and Bradleys etc certainly weren't in it for the money.
They very wealthy do not need the money from Horse racing and approach the game very differently than a man who needs the money. More power to them as it is nice to see a sportman`s take on racing.
Bathing Girl was the unraced mare that costs Jeffords $3,075. Each had an in close female ancestor as a target in breeding. Sundridge, Star Shoot, Bathing Girl, Star Fancy all shared an in close distant female ancestor and that is why the match was made to produce Crusader. I do not mean the actual mare of Crusader. The importance of the Target ancestor in MOW`s breeding can`t be denied. With tagret ancestors MOW produced 34% stakes winners for his entire 20 years at stud and withoout Target ancestors MOW only got 14% stakes winners.
That has set into Barbaro`s left rear leg. It is the very acute case of Laminitis as the Laminae have gone between the coffin bone and hoof. He could be put down in the next 24 hours. They will try one more operation on the wall of his hoof and if it dosen`t work they will give up on him.
Secretariat died of laminitis but he was 19 years old at the time he was put down. It is a very sad ending for so magnificient a horse. People won`t stop horse racing because there is too much money involved in it but the sad cruel truth of it is magnified by Barbaro`s injuries.
The indusrty breeds many more horses than it needs and they are forced to run at 40 miles per hour on ankles thinner than human ankels. That can not support 1200 pounds of horse running at 40 miles an hour thus so many break downs and deaths. I think it SUCKS big time.
yea it is very sad but barbaro is a cougaros horse and god made horse like that(with the small ankle and going 40 mile per hour,)humans didn`t cause it.a horses only defence is to run away so that not really the big deal, but with so many horses raceing in one race or inbreeding it make the already fragile ankle more fragile.
If they did not race they could last for twenty years with no problem. In nature a horse does not carry any weight on his back and in racing he carries 126 pounds which adds to the breakdown possibility.
Thoroghbreds are bred to race, so what good is keeping a horse for 20 years and not racing it.
99% of sound horses have no trouble carrying a 120 lb impost around a racetrack, any more than a 120 lb human would have carrying an extra 12 pounds, hardly a life and death assignment.
In the English Grand National Steeplechase, horses race over 4 1/2 miles and jump 30 fences, some carring weights as high as 160 lbs, so don't underestimate the strength and durability of the horse, just so you can make a point for your opinion.
Bottom line is, fatalities happen in many sports, Motor Racing, Jet Boating, Boxing, Football, Ski Jumping, Water skiing to name a few, and when you take into account the number of horses that face the starter around the world every week, the number that don't return to their stable is minute
That has set into Barbaro`s left rear leg. It is the very acute case of Laminitis as the Laminae have gone between the coffin bone and hoof. He could be put down in the next 24 hours. They will try one more operation on the wall of his hoof and if it dosen`t work they will give up on him.
Secretariat died of laminitis but he was 19 years old at the time he was put down. It is a very sad ending for so magnificient a horse. People won`t stop horse racing because there is too much money involved in it but the sad cruel truth of it is magnified by Barbaro`s injuries.
The indusrty breeds many more horses than it needs and they are forced to run at 40 miles per hour on ankles thinner than human ankels. That can not support 1200 pounds of horse running at 40 miles an hour thus so many break downs and deaths. I think it SUCKS big time.
my aunt read the Barbaros Absece in in fetlock of the uninjured foot and the infection in teh injurded foot mean they may have to put him down in the nex t 24 hours. but tehy are trying with everything the have to make sure it doesn`t happen. i mean Barbaro is at one of the best large animal hospital.
Barbaro's Chances Of Survival 'Poor'
Kentucky Derby Winner Has Developed Potentially Fatal Disease
KENNETT SQUARE, Pa, July 13, 2006
(CBS/AP) Kentucky Derby winner Barbaro has developed a severe case of laminitis, a potentially fatal disease brought on by uneven weight distribution in the limbs, and his veterinarian called his chances of survival "a long shot." <more>
Hello my filly is being DNA typed.Today I got the phone cal from the DNA lab saying that they need more information of the Dame for Parentage Verfication that information was the mares VGL case # they said to call the Jockey Club so I did to find out they didnt have the mares information anymore.Thats when I called the DNA lab to see if it would help any for me to fax the Jockey Club DNA kit as it had the some #`s on it that I belived would be helpful.The 2 horses my Filly is being DNA typed to are---
Sire: Abstract = http://www.pedigreequery.com/abstract2
Dame: Pie Rise = http://www.pedigreequery.com/pie+rise
Plese post to give your comments,
What you think the results will be if the Jockey Club DNA kit #`s help any.
What you think of this cross.and any other questions or comments.
Here are 2 articles I thought y'all might be interested in, one is about Barbaro and the other is about the Breeders' Cup:
Barbaro 'facing tough odds'
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2006-07-12-barbaro_x.htm
KENNETT SQUARE, Pa. — Barbaro's condition is "potentially serious," and the Derby winner's veterinarian said Wednesday the colt is "facing tough odds and his condition is guarded." Dean Richardson, chief surgeon at Penn's New Bolton Center, said doctors are looking at all possible treatments to keep Barbaro comfortable. <more>
Breeders' Cup, NTRA to cut 25 jobs
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2006-07-08-breeders-cup-ntra-cutbacks_x.htm
The Breeders' Cup Ltd. and National Thoroughbred Racing Association announced Friday that their joint operation is trimming its personnel and administrative costs by 40%. Spokesman Keith Chamblin said that by year's end, the number of employees will drop to 42 from 67. <more>
Not sure on stallion shares. I do know that the Jockey's Guild does not allow frozen semen be given to mares to be in foal, it's very prohibited and it should be, it isn't the real way of doing things, it shouldn't be allowed in any breeds and thats where the AQHA should look back at.
Kerien Fallon is banned from racing in Britain for fixing races along with 3 other jockeys. He also might be banned from racing in Ireland. Kerien said he believes his career is in ruins.
Article: Owners Uneasy After 17 Fatal Breakdowns at Arlington
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Owners Uneasy After 17 Fatal Breakdowns at Arlington
http://sports.iwon.com/news/07042006/v5856.html
Jul 4, 2:44 PM (ET) Email this Story
ARLINGTON HEIGHTS, Ill. (AP) - Some owners may pull their thoroughbreds from Arlington Park Racecourse following the fatal breakdowns of two more horses. Seventeen horses have been euthanized this season.
With two months left in the season, the total destroyed has surpassed last year's 12 deaths. The latest occurred last weekend when Bernel Trail and I Love Lisa were put down.
Track officials last week brought in consultant Joe King to examine the turn leading into the dirt oval's homestretch, where nearly all the breakdowns have occurred. He declared it safe, but owners remain uneasy.
Earl J. Trostrud Jr. already has lost a thoroughbred at Arlington this season - Angelic Morgan L. was destroyed after being hurt in a June 17 race. Trostrud is wary about running the four horses he has left at the racecourse.
"I'm very seriously thinking about not racing," he said.
Illinois regulatory officials have suggested the breakdowns could be linked to a thoroughbred shortage in the state, prompting some owners and trainers to over-race horses.
Former Gov. Jim Edgar suspects the oval is the cause. A gelding he owns, Jake's Fever, was destroyed after a June 23 race, and another of his horses, 3-year-old San Cart, developed a swollen knee during a race Thursday and is probably finished racing. Edgar said his horses have been returning sore from runs.
"I think there's something wrong, and I don't think it's the owners' and trainers' greediness," Edgar said.
Derrick Miller said he'll hold out his filly Savy's Delite for the rest of the Arlington season unless the track performs a "major reconstruction or admits something is wrong" in the wake of the death of Bernel Trail. He was the co-owner of the horse, who injured his front left ankle.
Other owners said they support the track's efforts to prevent injuries and will keep racing there.
"I trust Arlington more than any other track," said Robert Neumeyer, whose gelding Gully Washer broke down in a May 7 race after a bad step. "I know they were out there for three days looking over that section. They would never chintz on anything."
Adorable New Children's Book to Help Retired Thoroughbreds
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The Exceller Fund (www.excellerfund.org) is pleased to offer early editions of the new children's book, Sing and Alex, written Rob Saur and illustrated by Andy Sikes. Inspired by a real horse, the book is about Sing So Long, a Thoroughbred who has never won a race. He moves from barn to barn until he ends up at the barn where Alex's father works. Alex is a little boy who loves Sing and believes in him.
Noted author Hallie McEvoy wrote this review of the book:
"Sing and Alex is one of the best children's books I have read in years! The story of a horse who just needs someone to believe in him, and the tale of the boy who loves him will touch all who read it. The illustrations are darling, and add immeasurably to the story of hope, love, and redemption. I highly recommend this book for all who love horses and for those people looking for a way to make dreams come true." - Hallie McEvoy, author of Genuine Risk, Showing for Beginners, and Horse Show Judging for Beginners.
Mr. Saur has generously offered the book to The Exceller Fund to help raise funds needed for the adoption and retirement of thoroughbreds. The book will be available exclusively from the The Exceller Fund for a special introductory rate of $8 for a regular copy, and $12 for a signed copy until July 31, 2006, after which it will be offered at its regular price. For ordering information, please visit www.excellerfund.org.
Copies of the book are available to publications who would like to write their own review of this book which is sure to be a classic. Inquires may be sent to mail@excellerfund.org
For more information on The Exceller Fund and the programs it runs, please visit our website at www.excellerfund.org. Donations are always welcome, and much needed, to continue our work to Provide a Future Beyond the Finish Line(sm).
Article: Funny Cide Brings Fans to Feet in Winning Dominion Day Stakes at Woodbine
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Funny Cide Brings Fans to Feet in Winning Dominion Day Stakes at Woodbine
Jul 2, 12:44 AM (ET)
article at http://sports.iwon.com/news/07012006/v1294.html
TORONTO (AP) - Funny Cide, the 2003 Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes champion, won his first race outside the United States on Saturday - taking the $200,000 Dominion Day Stakes at Woodbine by 1˝-lengths.
The Barclay Tagg trainee, sent off as the 8-5 favorite, became the first Kentucky Derby winner to finish first at Woodbine since Secretariat did it in 1973.
Funny Cide, who broke from the inside post, took command of the 1\-mile Dominion Day from the outset, clicking off uncontested early fractions of :23.62 and :47.14.
The son of Distorted Humor, who was victorious in the Kings Point Handicap on April 30 at Aqueduct, was challenged by Cryptograph in mid-stretch, but dug in gamely along the rail and resisted a strong bid from last year's Durham Cup and Woodbine Slots Cup champion.
"I kind of figured we'd be on the lead," trainer Richard Migliore said. "I knew I had a horse. When the challenge came, he met it. He likes to fight. As long as he can see them, they weren't going to beat him."
Jack Knowlton, managing partner of Sackatoga Stable, was thrilled with the effort of the chestnut, who has two wins in three starts and 22 top-three finishes.
"We've been all over the country, now we've been international with him," said Knowlton. "He's taken us places we never thought we'd go. It's great being in the winner's circle and it's a real thrill to be a winner at Woodbine."
The win was the 10th in 31 starts for Funny Cide, the highest-earning, New York-bred horse in history.
Funny Cide returned $5.20, $3.70, $2.60. Nolan's Cat paid $6.10 and $3.20 and completed a $28.40 exacta. Cryptograph paid $2.50 to show and rounded out a $63.60 trifecta.
Does anybody know what happened to Trotamondo, Chilean Triple Crown winner, won the Native Diver Handicap back in December and seemingly fell off the face of the planet. Did he go back to Chile?.
We don't have a Triple Crown as such, not on the same scale as yours.
The major cities of Australia ( Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth ) all have their own 3 year old classics, with Sydney and Melbourne being the main focus of metropolitan racing over here.
The main 3 yr old classic in Melbourne is the Victoria Derby which is always run in November, on the Saturday before the Melbourne Cup. there are a number of lead up races for the Derby but no real 'Triple Crown'.
In Sydney the big carnival is run in April and there is a three race series for 3 year olds which is referred to as a 'Triple Crown'. The three races are the Canterbury Guineas (1900m) the Rosehill Guineas (2000m) and the AJC Derby (2400m) but there isn't a great deal of promotion or much emphasis put on about the series.
So to really answer your question, do we have a Triple Crown Series here that is as important to us as your Triple Crown is to you....No we don't.
William Allison an English Turf writer and bloodstock expert used mathematical and scientific formulae in 1891 and 1892 to build The Castleton Foundation Dynasty at the Tattersalls Sales in England. The mares developed directly produced the most influential racers sires of 20th century America including Peter Pan and his son Pennant, Sweep. Broomstick and Black Toney.
James Keene commissioned William Allison to acquire key mares from Castleton Dynasty for use in America. James Keene then bred Sysonby and Colin among other stars. Math science breeding goes back to the 1890s and it appears much earlier as well.
Sysonby James Keene`s homely colt amazed the racing world in 1904-05.
Sysonby won the Flash stakes at Saratoga in 1904 against his stablemate Augur, Glorifer and Trapper. Sysonby jogged to a very fast 1:06 4/5 and a 10 length win. Afer Sysonby`s win a large crowd gathered around him as he cooled off under the paddock trees. Among the interested spectators were John Madden and James Keene. Madden was the prominent breed of the times who owned and bred 5 Kentucky Derby winners and taught the Whitneys how to build a racing stable. WC Whitney and his son Harry Payne Whitney went to Madden to learn horse racing.
Mr Madden said to Mr. Keene “When I saw Sysonby work at Brighton Beach Mr. Keene
I sold out all of my horses. He is a great colt, and I made up my mind that my colts had no chance to best him.
“Yes replied” Mr. Keene. “He is the greatest colt I ever had or saw.” He is better than Commando and could beat the head off Hamburg.”
(Hamburg is the only horse other than MOW to win a race by 100 lengths.)
An $100,000 offer to buy Sysonby was made but Keene refused with thanks.
Sysonby has the rich $20,000 Saratoga Special at his mercy Saturday coming and is already a hot favorite for the rich Futurity. The greatest breeders of the day can not beat Sysonby.
From a Saratoga newspaper in August 1904.
"Nobble" is an old expression for doing something to a horse before a race to either prevent him/her from starting in the race or make him/her unable to win -- for example, giving Sysonby a sedative before the Futurity.
Redhead is quite correct, 'nobbled' is a term still used here in racing, though thankfully we don't hear it very often. Other terms are 'got at' and 'doped'.
They are different paragraphs with different central themes. One post may get too long and unpleasant to the eyes. Do you not have reading comprehension in school? Different themes go to different posts.
I have question, are the debates over now?? Because for some reason that seems to be a regular on this board for a small while now. I keep asking people to just agree to disagree and go on to something else but for some reason everyone seems to want to stick to the same topic and continue the debate.
The reason I never cared for debates is because even if the debate is done with great respect to one another, eventually it tends to get a bit heated up. Also, for people who aren't regulars on this board, it may make them want to leave and not come back. Then we'll have lost another horse racing fan we could've met and have a discussion with.
I know the Triple Crown season is over, so we probably don't have much to talk about till Breeders' Cup season in the fall. But please, during these discussions we have, could you please try and calm down a bit if you find yourself getting a bit heated about a topic?? You may not think it comes across in the posts but sometimes it does through your choice of words, and you don't notice it.
Thank-you,
Beth Chaisson
This message has been edited by bmc86 on Jun 25, 2006 10:40 AM
I do not like debates and I am not rying to debate with anyone. I am a baseball fan at heart not a horse race bettor. Today the heavy rains washed out the Yankees Old Timers Game in New York. I attended a few of those in the past. One memory stays with me. It was in 1955 at a Yankees Oldtimers game which I attended and saw Ty Cobb then 65 yrs old make a plate appearence. I had grown up on Man O War as the best ever. I had read in a 1919 issue The New York Times called MOW the TY COBB of Horse Racing. Tears came to my eyes as the crowd cheered Tyrus Cobb that day. I got his autograph that day after the game and it is on the program of the day July 30, 1955. A dear memory for me.
In October 1919 when The New York Times wrote that article Babe Ruth was a pitcher with the Red Sox who had hit only 11 homers for his career. Ruth was not yet the famous man he would become later. That is why the papers called MOW The Ty Cobb of racing as Cobb was a star for more than ten years by 1919.
Jack Price a breeder once bred Saggy to a $150 mare Joppy in 1958. The foal was named Carry Back. Saggy and Joppy did not accomplish anything in breeding.
Yet Carry Back won the Cowdin at 2 and 7 races at three including the Kentucky Derby
and Preakness. Carry Back earned purse money of $556,884 in 1961.
Experts who studied Carry Back`s pedigree could find no reason for his success. By all standards Carry Back was a freak and Nature is fickle. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best shrug horseman. Johnny Sellers rode the Cinderella Horse and the horse was much loved by the public. We have several rags to riches horses in American History.
Jack Price, operator of Carry Back, used to argue that the reason cheap horses run cheap is that they are treated cheap. He said there was no suprise about Carry Back because the damn and foal were treated properly.
"Breed the best to the best and hope for the best shrug horsemen".
Whichever horsemen said that, has no clue about horse breeding at all. I don't care which one said it. You don't breed the best to the best that's something a child would think of. "Point Given and Azeri they're two champions lets throw them in a breeding shed and hope for the best" *shrug*. Breeding horses does have something of a system, you find a right match. You don't just go half cocked into a situation like that especially when you're personally involved in helping to create a life. If you want the science part of breeding a mathmetician has created a system that calculates the percentages of grade 1 winners between a given pair of thoroughbreds, I wish I could remember the site name and what it was called. I think you would find it intresting to note that the pairing of Dynaformer and La Ville Rouge was at 506% off the charts so to speak, a very useful tool that will no doubt come in handy in the future of horse breeding.
Failures to detect top horses by math breeding is comical. No formula can tell the future. It would be silly to suggest that science could forsee a Derby Winnwer out of Saggy by Joppy
Seabiscuit sold by Sunny Jim to C Howard for $7,500 went on to win $400,000 and Horse of the Year in 1938.
Alsab sold for $700 was champion horse in 1941 and 1942.Stymie for $1,500 a cliamer won won %918,485.
Ballydam a %1,500 claimer mated with Celestial Blue a nobody and produced Bally Ache co horse of the Year with Kelso in 1960
Science breeders missed Canonero!! Bold Forbes and Seattle Slew.
Science does not predict the outcome of races nor the ability of future foals. Your math formula has had a lucky streak the will eeventually grow cold. There have been many math formulae to improve breeding but nature wins out in the end. NO FORMULA can prove the future. Reading websites about it proves nothin period.
Golden Broom sold at $15,000 won one stakes race while MOW sold for $5,000 in the same sales and became horse of the century. One can not tell future stars with Math btreeding
"a system that calculates the percentages of grade 1 winners between a given pair of thoroughbreds"
Percentage: A percentage is a way of expressing a proportion, ratio or fraction.
Yankee Clipper you apparently don't know what a percentage is so I gave you the defenition.
The objective of the calculation system is not to predict a Kentucky Derby winner out of Saggy and Joppy, or predict that Seabiscuit would be so good or Alsab or Stymie or Bally Ache. The objective is to see the probability of a good horse out of the mating of a given stallion and mare the higher the percentage the better chance you will get a winner out of the pairing. Not to predict the future of a foal. How you even came to that conclusion boggles the mind. I don't know the numbers on the pairing of Saggy and Joppy, but obviously Carry Back fell into the percentage of being a good offspring between the two. It's basically the same principle as flipping a coin 100 times how many times will it land on heads and how many times will it land on tails 50 times on heads, 50 times on tails. If you toss it once what is the possibility it would land on tails 50%.
I know what percentages are. There is no gaurantee that a sire who gets 25% winners this year will continue to get 25% winners in the future. That is CHASING PERFORMANCE which fails all to often.
It's still not quite sinking in is it. I will give you an example lets say Sadler's Wells great sire and exceptional runner is bred to Urban Sea winner of the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. Now just focus on the two of them together not Sadler's Wells percentage of winners in a given year, the focal point is what is percentages going to be if they have a foal together and will it be succesful on the race track, not predicting that the foal that they have will be a great runner, as I said the higher the rating of the two paired together the greater the probability you are going to be investing in a competitive racehorse.
It makes no sense. THE GREAT LEXINGTON still failed 60% of the time. Hope for ther best.?? What are you trying to prove? Ogden Mills Phipps lost a chance to own Secretariat on the flip of a coin. No one can tell how good a foal can be. Great foals come form unexpected sources at times. Every thing in life can be brought down to percentages that is just in the residue of design
Horseman can intend to say breed the best (as in a sire who gets highest % of winners) not a best as a race horse who was best on track racing. You have a shallow idea of breeding.
Are you reading the same thing I am posting?. There's no other way I can explain it to you. It's probably just a little too advanced for a novice in the breeding industry that's ok. The Yankees are kind of like Snaffi Dancer aren't they all that money Steinbrenar spent, and what do they have to show for it? ohh yeah nothing.
I have been using breeding stats since 1967 and the only useful information I have found relates to daily racing. Such as
which sire gets 20% winners with first time starters
which sire gets 20% winners with first to turf racers.
Now a bet can be won with good odds. Jibberish about greatest sires gets you $2.20 payoffs
There is a new way of aiding the matching of a stallion and a mare by utilizing both pedigree's and a little mathmatics it helps to predict the odds of a possible good horse between the stallion and mare. I never said it was 100% guarntee to predict the future of a foal, so stop trying to sound self righteous with "Great foals can come from unexpected scources at times". It's obvious that if a great foal comes from two "nobody" parents it's just luck that that foal got all the right "ingredients" from both parents to be great and more than likley if you tried to breed the same pair again the outcome would be drasticly different and result in a less than stellar full brother or sister of the great offspring Urban Sea foaled Galileo by Sadler's Wells, spectacular racehorse 6 wins in 8 starts among his wins were the Vodafone Derby, Irish Derby and King George and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes. Urban Sea was bred back to Sadler's Wells 3 more times as of right now. The three resulting full siblings are average at best the only one that comes close to Galileo is Black Sam Bellamy he has 4 wins in 18 lifetime starts among his wins is the Italian grade 1 Gran Premio Del Jockey Club E Coppa d'Oro and the grade 1 Tattersals Gold Cup. He was crowned champion 3 year old colt in Italy in 2002 the others are below average at best. Atticus was unraced, we will never really know if he would have been good or not, and then there is All Too Beautiful 3 wins in 6 starts her big win was in the grade 3 Middelton Stakes. I am not going to waste my time trying to explain anymore. Your going to get angry I am gonna get angry and well just get into an arguement and I really don't have the time to do that so this is the end.
Equine Artist Pat DeLong contacted The Exceller Fund last week and offered to donate a portion of the proceeds to The Exceller Fund from auctions of her artwork featuring Exceller and Ferdinand.
These are Giclee Prints from her original artwork and they are quite beautiful!
You can see all of her actions at the following link:
The auctions for the print of Exceller and the print of Ferdinand have the charity ribbon and a notation that 50% of the final bid will be donated to The Exceller Fund.
You may recall Pat's beautiful artwork from the Final Turn Gallery at:
http://www.finalturngallery.com/Triple-Crown-winners-plus-other-racehorses?page=2
Please take a look at these beautiful prints. The portrait of Exceller is especially haunting, and Ferdinand is quite poignant.
It is ironic that these two champions, both trained by Charlie Whittingham and ridden by Bill Shoemaker, should meet the same grisly fate.
The Exceller Fund has recently acquired 2 geldings who were scheduled to be shipped for slaughter today. We helped network into a private home a lovely filly that was also on the schedule. We have to remain a bit discrete for now on who they are because if word gets back to certain people, we could be shut out from accessing these OTTB's in the future. It's frustrating not to be able to say too much, but we need to make sure we can continue helping these horses.
Thank you again for your support of The Exceller Fund and our goal of Providing a Future Beyond the Finish Line sm.
Re: Exceller Fund Auctions - artwork by Pat DeLong
by Tulloch
We have a wonderful rags to riches story happening over here in Australia at the moment, in the form of a horse named Takeover Target.
Three years ago this horse was one step away from the knackery when a taxi driver come part time horse trainer named Joe Janiak stepped in and bought him for $1200.
Joe was told that the horse had incurable leg problems but later discovered his legs were fine, but instead, it was his hooves that were causing the trouble.
Joe treated Takeover Target's hooves and got him to the racetrack where he has since started 19 times for 12 wins including 3 Group Ones and $2m in prizemoney.
After Gr1 wins earlier this year in the 1000m Lightning Stakes and the 1200m Newmarket at Flemington, Takeover Target was invited by British racing officials to race at their prestigious Ascot Carnival in June, so last Tuesday at Ascot, after travelling halfway around the globe, the horse that nobody wanted and was saved from the slaughterhouse by a taxi driver, beat a field of 28 runners comprising the best sprinters in all of Europe.
To see Joe on the TV at Royal Ascot with his top hat and tails was really something, a guy who lived in a trailer in country Australia leading in his $1200 Champion ahead of the finest horseflesh that money can buy.
Saturday, Takeover Target line up at Ascot again in the GR1 Golden Jubilee Stakes over 1200m for which he has been installed $3.30 favourite.
Like us Aussies, the Brits have also fallen in love with this horse who has defied all the odds to make it to the top, good luck to the Aussie champ on Saturday, GO Takeover Target, you good thing !
That was a cool story, but how about "The Greatest Show On Turf" Deep Impact today, Saturday will be making his final start in Japan in the Takarazuka Kinen before he heads off to Longchamp to run in the Arc against the likes of Scorpion, Electrocutionist, Ouija Board, Sir Percy and the number one ranked horse in the world last year Hurricane Run. Why use the phrase "The Greatest Show On Turf" well you simply have to look to his last start the Tenno Sho (spring) run at 2 miles, he broke from the gate poorly was last heading into the first turn heading to the stands then got up to 2nd to last he finally settled and stayed there for the first go around. Then on the far straight he made his move pulling out about 3-5 wide from the field passed one, then another, the crowd roared, another is passed up and another and before you know it he's at the front of the pack at the top of the turn. He just flew passed about 17 horses. Another roar goes up at the turn Deep Impact thunders passed the leaders pulling away and wins by 3 1/2 lengths and the crowd goes crazy throwing papers and streamers in the air. Deep Impact broke the stakes record for the race in a time of 3:13.4 which is a full second off of Mayano Top Gun another very talented horse who one the race in 1997. Deep Impact ran the final 800 meters in :44.8 and :33.5 the last 600 which is "greatness" especially in a 2 mile race. (Tulloch I believe Australia's own Strategem was a respectable 3rd. With Deep Impact and Lincoln in there it was a good effort.) http://japanracing.jp/information/list2006.html is where you can watch the Tenno Sho scroll down the date is April 30th it should be highlited in yellow. The call is in English most of the race videos on there aren't. If you guys want to be amazed I suggest you check it out. Now I will adress Deep Impact's loss to Hearts Cry in the Arima Kinen last December. It was Take's mistake(Yutaka Take is Deep Impact's jockey and the best jockey in Japan) in the race Take rode him typicaly the way he rides him at the back powers around the outside the field and powers home, but in the Arima Kinen he waited to long to make his move and was beat to the line by Heart's Cry so his one loss is chalked up to jockey error. Hurricane Run's lone loss in the Prix du Jockey Club is attributed to being beaten by a much better horse in Shamardal. That's why I think not only will it be a thouroughly entertaining Arc this year, but a win by Deep Impact, and hopefuly if everything falls in place for me just right I will be there to see it. That is Cool.
Thanks Beth! I hardly post much at all on any internet forum anymore. I have just been too busy trying to run a rescue organization in addition to my "day" job, and having a family.
The Exceller Fund has grown quite a bit over the last several years, but with growth comes much more work! I will take it as a compliment, but people seem to think The Exceller Fund is a lot larger than it actually is. You can register at www.guidestar.org and view our 990 non-profit tax return. You'll see that we run our program on less than $80,000 a year which is nothing when you consider the costs involved with rescue, transport, and daily care for an average of 20 horses at any given time.
I WISH we were larger because that could mean we would be able to save more horses. With many of these horses, if you go back in their pedigree, you'll find several crosses with Man o' War and even MORE crosses to Fair Play (mainly from his son Display who sired Discovery who was the broodmare sire of Native Dancer who was the broodmare sire of Northern Dancer.)
The negative inference is very clear on it because The Daily Racing Form, The Morning Telegraph, The American Racing Manual, and hundreds of newspapers around America NEVER reported a trainer saying Damascus, Dr Fager or Buckpasser was the greatest ever. These publications make it THEIR BUSINESS to interview trainers and no one reported such a claim.
Winfrey who took over for “Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons” and trained Buckpasser in 1965 and 1966 said he was a bit of a loafer in the mornings but he is determined in the afternoons.” Eddie Neloy took over Buckpasser in 1967 and he never said Buckpasser was greatest ever either.
Frank Whiteley Jr. told the Blood Horse that Ruffian was the best horse he had ever seen or trained and he trained Damascus and Forego as well.
John Nerud said Dr. Fager is the only horse I ever had who could run but he was guarded in his opinion and never said Dr. Fager was the greatest ever.
These three greats were not called the greatest ever even by THEIR OWN people.
These men operated when “Pride Still Mattered” and they thought about winning when they had to and not about abstract "greatest ever" theories and they made more sense that way.
I've got a mate who's 5 year old horse just broke it's maiden status by winning a 1200m picnic race at kickatinalong.
He reckons his horse is the greatest of all time, so if The Daily Racing Form, The Morning Telegraph, The American Racing Manual, and hundreds of newspapers would like to contact him, he'd be more than happy to confirm this fact to them.
That's exactly my point.
Of the 8000 trainers that you're harping about, how many of them would any journalist have the slightest interest in ?
I'd say maybe a dozen, and that's it, the other 7988 are in the same boat as my mate...noone cares about their opinion.
Writers care about the circulation of their papers and the more public interest the better. It dosen`t matter whose opinion it is it matters how many have that opinion. That is what sells papers.
If Buckpasser or Dr Fager's trainers came out and said "My horse is the best of all time", would anyone really care ?
Would newspapers hold the front page for this rivetting news item, I don't think so, I doubt it would even make it into print.
Would any punter in the US change his opinion of who he thought was the best just because some trainer has a different opinion., I don't think so.
You're right, news stories sell papers, but the opinion of every trainer in America as to which horse was better is about as newsworthy as the opinion of every owner and punter in the country.....noone cares.
When masses say they believe it I look into why they do. It is a matter of 100 heads can do more work than one man can. Many details can be gleaned by having masses of people try the idea. I loved Buckpasser myself. That run at Chicago was unreal! The stablemate Impressive good enough himself to set the World Record at 1:06 4/5 and he was only a "rabbit" for Buckpasser. Such is the power and might of Wheatley Stables. Thier opinions of racing and breeding carry more weight than the average man. Phipps Stables were in business since the early 1900s and they are the top breeders of the 20th Century. 100 years of excellence and they have bred more than 100 stakes winners. They know more about breeding than I do and more about racing too.
I think if any of the trainers of the three great champions came out and said their horse was the "best ever", the public would care. Perfect example, Bud Delp, who said Bid was the "greatest ever to look through a bridle." To this day, everyone remembers his quote, if they agree or disagree. It certainly created a lot of controversy, but I tend to think he could have been right. And I'm not alone, as Steve Haskin seems to agree.
I was Seabiscuit, but then again some of the questions the site asks I don't really have an answer to so I just picked one. Later I'll try it again to see who else I get.
well yea but depending on what answers u click and the way they go wellchange it but yea i know ehich one are of mow and sec and alydar and affiremnd and seabiscuit can`t get slew
The Concensus Gentium is more important in Political Science, Religion, Politics, etc as it is a collection of the masses of peoples thoughts on a particular subject. It has some place in sports as well albiet sports are much less important. 8,000 people were in the horse trainer colony in the 1960`s and not a one said either Buckpasser, Dr. Fager or Damascus was the best horse ever. Maybe they weren`t at that. More importantly individual opinions carry much less weight and prove nothing. To give an opinion about a real or imaginary is tipping and touting and tips and touts are wrong 7 times in 9 every day at every race track in America. There are no certanties in racing. It is a most uncertain game at best. Just because one runs in human races does not mean he can tell the outcome of a horse race: far from it!! He would be as fallible as all of us are. If horses never raced against each other there is no proof as to which will win a race together. The horses past records do not prove he will win in the future no matter how good the horse looks on paper.
"Just because one runs in human races does not mean he can tell the outcome of a horse race: far from it!! He would be as fallible as all of us are." -- Yankee Clipper
Once again, I didn't mean that I am "all knowing", I'm just saying that being an athlete, as I am can help you think of why something may be set up for a closer such as the use of a rabbit. When I raced in my younger years of swimming, if I was put into horse text I would have been a closer/stalker and occasionally a pace setter in distance events. I didn't like setting and holding a pace but sometimes I would, many times had I gotten the lead (with no one threatening) I would pull myself up (no use in wasting energy if not needed, especially if there are more races to swim that day), it mattered the competition, pool, etc. Anyways I would relate more to Damascus/Buckpasser in that aspect, which may be a little odd considering I'm a Dr. Fager fan. I have gained a respect for someone or some animal who is able to hold a pace and win, it is very unique, as I eventually found out latter on in my swimming career on how to control my speed and the pace I set. Still, style doesn't mean everything. You may be right, Damascus just may have been the better horse that day his 10 length win was impressive, but like I said before had it been more "unbiased" it would bring more satisfactory to my mind.
Which of the three among Dr Fager, Buckpasser and Damascus needed a rabbit?
It is Buckpasser who needed a “rabbit” the most often by far! In 12 of his 31 starts Buck passer was entered with a pace setter to help him win, which is in sharp contrast with only 3 starts where Damascus used a rabbit. Damascus won 18 major stakes races without a rabbit. Damascus wins without a rabbit include The Travers by 22, JCGC at 2 miles, Dwyer Hcp, Aqueduct Hcp and many others.
Buckpasser in one race broke so poorly that he was 15 ˝ out of it by the first quarter and his “rabbit” Impressive won the race over him. It happened at Hialeah Feb 14, 1966 in a purse only race.
Eddie Neloy used rabbits all the time. In the 1966 Champagne Neloy used a horse named Great White Way as a pace setter for Successor against Dr. Fager and that “got Dr Fager so rank he lost handily to Successor who was named 2 yr old of the year in 1966.
They had a showdown race in 1967. Buckpasser could not keep up with Damascus that day and barely beat Dr. Fager for second. Each camp had something to say after that race. Buckpassers`people said he had sore feet and Dr Fager`s people said they used rabbits. Damascus people said we won. Tom Ainslie, a leading handicapper of the day wrote “Is this fair to use a horse like Hedevar just to tire Dr. Fager and beat him? Yes it is absolutely fair if Dr Fager can not contest a fast pace and win he is no champion.”
There three were great stars in their time and I only look at what happened on the track when they raced.
Buckpasser was Horse of the Year in 1966
Damascus was Horse of The Year in 1967
Dr.Fager was Horse of tThe Year in 1968.
Each share the glory and defeats of their times.
Let me go laught at what Tom Ainslie said *turns and laughs*, the Doc was going against a world record setting rabbit, losing to a great (Damascus) because the use of a rabbit works against a front runner is not a bad lose. I have heard the interview with Frank Whitely on how he thinks that Damasucs would win anyways, if he was truly so confident in his horse he would not run a rabbit, it's that simple, Dr. Fager was the horse to beat and thats the only way he could be beaten. It is a cheap victory that Damascus got and any one who knows anything knows its true. You can't expect a horse to go a mile and a quarter sprinting head to head with such a hot pace it can't be done against world class competition with a mind boggling pace and a champion that has the race setting up for him. It is the same for human sports, very rarely in a race swimming/track long distance event do the winners race on the lead the entire way, usually it happens at the mid to very end that a closer or stalker will catch the pace setter due to him being burnt out. Two years ago a U.S. swimmer was racing an Australian at the Olympics it was a 1000 or 500 meter event (I forgot), anyways the American lead the entire way until he was caught withing the final 50 meters. Dr. Fager's four year old season was one of the best if not the best in horseracing history and for someone to say he is not a champion is not right, even if he wasn't in his prime during his three year old season he was still the best horse in the country. His lose to Damascus when using a rabbit is no true defeat, lets go pit the two in a match race; Damascus would lose terribly he can't go head to head with Dr. Fager over ANY distance.
Buckpasser`s camp tipped their hats to Damascus because he won. Why can`t you do the same? Hedevar was one and two years removed from only a 4 way tie for the record. So what? Great White Way had no records. A loss is a loss no matter the pace mix. A great 4 year old season by Dr fager is still marred by a loss to Damascus. If Damascus had been a cheap allowance horse or claimer he would lose to Dr Fager even with a rabbit like Hedevar in the race. You have picked up the bias of John Nerud who said that repeatly about using two horses to beat one. So What? NO ONE called Dr Fager the best ever even in 1968 when he was winning races. It is a Mexican standoff between Dr Fager and Damascus and your opinion is a tip and tout sheet best avoided. You have read about it almost 40 years after the fact and you have aquired John Nerud`s bias not your own. You do not know the outcome of a 5th meeting betwen the two do you? Dr Fager could have lost without a rabbit. Who knows?
You opinion is just another opinion and not in spirit with those times at all.
You are narrow minded. I have my opinion because it is mine, I am an athlete A RACING ATHLETE. I know what happens in races ALL KINDS, my opinions are based upon facts, not on someone elses theory, you shouldn't start stating things before you know what you are talking about, I get all my knowledge of opinions from myself.
