Hello. This is Big Red's Stable, a board that can be used for both as a chat board and a guestbook. Use it either way but I'd appreciate it if you would leave a message here so people can get together and talk about horses, horseracing, or whatever. Thank-you :-)
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The best there was
by
I fell in love with horses partly because of books by Margaret Henry and Walter Farley...and learned about Man O' War because of those books. I eventually worked and earned money and bought a horse, had a colt, had another one, and it built much character in me as a young woman. I never had horses since, but it meant a lot to me. I also wrote President Nixon in the 1970's to lobby to pass the Wild Horse Act and he signed it. My political activity started there with horses, and Man O' War - a horse - was a powerful inspiration to me then, and now...
Yes as a Yankee Fan since the days of Casey Stengel when the Yankees won 5 World Series in 5 years, a feat still unmatched today, I too am inspired by MOW as the greatest of all. MOW transcended the sport and it dosen`t matter who thinks another a horse is better MOW is an inspiration of honesty, integrity and Fair Play. 50,000,000 people loved MOW in his own time and perhaps he is the greatest of all.
The Stephen Foster Handicap looks like an intresting race. One end you have Brass Hat who finished 2nd to Electrocutionist in the Dubai World Cup, and an up and coming Buzzards Bay who one the Oaklawn Handicap last time out. I like Buzzards Bay in this one Brass Hat is definently going to give him a fight. IMO right now it looks like the older horse and possibly horse of the year title is going to be between Brass Hat, Buzzards Bay and Lava Man. This is going to be one of the many battles between these two this year, and it's going to end at Churchill Downs Saturday November 4th. I am only going to say it once Oonagh Maccool. This filly is amazing I have seen every one of her races, she dominated on grass in England, and now she's dominating on the dirt in the States Saturday she takes one more step towards.....ummm if I say greatness John The Gambler and Yankee Clipper will probably give me some heat so how about another step towards goodness.
The Six Target Ancestors that made Man O War a great stallion.
Throughout Man O Wars sire career the pedigrees of the mares bred to him were saturated with the blood of these six target ancestors.
Roi Herode (The most often appearance.)
Star Shoot* ( Second Most and the one giving Man his Highest Stakes Winner %)
Sundridge
Orme
Hamburg
Friar Rock( Half Brother to Fair Play- Man`s Sire)
More than 70% of the foals sired by Man O War carry the blood of at least one of these TARGET ancestors.
William Allison chose these Ancestors for Man O War Breeding. William Allison by choosing “In close female ancestor breeding” built the Castelton Dynasty in England.
The Tattersalls Sales in December 1891 and 1892 Allison bought and bred foundation mares that produced 20th Century greats Peter Pan, Pennant, Sweep and Broomstick. When a female ancestor of a target Ancestor was a close female relative of Man O War`s ancestors the breeding match was made.
Scientists today have found THE PREVALENCE AND CONCENTRATION of Man O War -- Star Shoot blood were significantly higher in the elite population of recent Grade 1 stakes winners than in a random control pool of non Grade 1 winners
They were gelded because they noticed females too much and did not concetrate on racing and that is the same reason Kelso wes gelded and Kelso was a decendant of MOW too.
Riddle did not miss manage Mows stud career. Would a man who refused a million dollars to sell MOW now deny him a good stud career? Riddle and Jeffords went to England in December 1920 to the Tattersales Sales and spent $21,000 for 5 mares to be included with Mows first Crop. Bloodstock expert William Alston chose these mares very carefully and they were from the foundation mares of England’s best breeding dynasty. MOW had the best mares of England and the United States in his stud career.
In his first five years MOW produced 29% stakes winner which is the HIGHEST first five years percentage for any American sire in the 20th century.
The problem with Riddle was he kept MOW exclusively for himself and Jeffords in the first three years of MOWs stud life. Spurned breeders were resentful and spread a Black Legend against Riddle for they were shut out form so great a racer and sire. Riddle was not well liked and it was easy to Black Ball him but it is not true. Riddle gave MOW a brilliant stud career.
War Admiral kind of got a bad rap mostly becasue Riddle didn't want to talk to the media, however the media loved Charles Howard and he loved the attention from the media. Talk about mismanagement for Seabiscuits stud career. His stud career started at the beggining of World War 2 and Howard had Seabiscuit standing at his farm, far from the central stud farms of California, gas was very expensive because it was being used for the war effort. Not to many people were willing to drive there mares way out to Howards farm.
Barbaro's vet: 'His leg looks excellent'
http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=news&id=18345
Bloodhorse 6/13/2006
Dr. Dean W. Richardson, chief of surgery at the University of Pennsylvania's New Bolton Center, got his first look at the right rear leg of Barbaro since he performed surgery on the colt and reported "his leg looks excellent."
Richardson was able to view the progress when the cast on the leg of the Kentucky Derby Presented by Yum! Brands (gr. I) was changed Tuesday.
"The incision has healed well and judging by the radiographs, the graft is opacifying ('taking')," Richardson said. "Callus is forming nicely, and all of the implants (plate and screws) look unchanged."
The cast was replaced under general anesthesia, and Barbaro had a very smooth pool recovery.
Barbaro, who is recovering from a shattered hind leg sustained at the Preakness Stakes (gr. I), continues to please veterinarians at the George D. Widener Hospital for Large Animals and he remains in intensive care at the New Bolton Center
As Beth mentioned Exterminator who won 50 races in 100 starts and Exterminator beat almost all of the good horses of his day, but although they competed at the same track on the same day three times Exterminator and the Mighty Man O War never met. Those three dates were;
23 Aug19 3Sar: Grand Union Hotel Stakes MOW won his revenge against Upset (MOW drew 35,000 fans that day, largest ever in Spa history.)
23 Aug19 4 Sar: Merchants and Citizens Hcp Exterminator ran 3rd
30 Aug 19 Sar:Hopeful: MOW won in blinding rain and Riddle did not recognize him soaked in mud.
30 Aug 19 Sar: Saratoga Cup: Exterminator won and equaled a track record. Exterminator was a full second slower than MOW on each of these two days
29 May 20 3Bel: Whithers Stks MOW won and set world record for a mile. (Stratosphere Beyer)
29 May 20 4 Bel: Handicap Exterminator lost to Alibi in slow time.
McDaniel the trainer and Kilmer the owner had to notice MOW had one to two seconds speed edge over Exterminator and decided never to race against MOW.
MOW as a two year old was one second faster than Exterminator was at 4 yrs old.
In those days tracks ran All Ages races where two year olds ran against three and up ages of horses.
Why are we fighting?I mean seriously. This has almost never happened before. I am not sure, if all the the 7 YEARSA this has been around, that people have fought. And once the main person left, another one came to start a fight, then they left, another came ect.
I am truely starting to think it is a twisted person, trying to be cool with younger people (a I think most of the people here are "younger" (under 25-ish) And that is just SICK, Because, you look more stupid.
Moral of this, jsut get along guys. Don't get fired up, they are doing it to annoy you.
I see heated debates on the board in the past and it is stupid. Most are about horses who have never ran against each other and it is loathsome to make those comparisons as it is only good bar room talk and it can not be demonstrated as to which horse was best.
Beth can run the board as she wants to. Fine to have a handicapping contest to see what wins a horse race. Debates get out of hand and it is about something that can not be proved ie.Horses who never ran against one another.
Jazil, I can't remember the last time I didn't care who won the Belmont. I heard just today that Favorite Trick 1997 Horse Of The Year (the first 2 year old to be crowned Horse Of The Year since Secretariat) died in a barn fire at JEH Stallion Station near Hondo, New Mexico. Five others parished in the fire including a favorite of mine Saratoga Six a son of Alydar, he was undefeated in four starts in his one year of racing at two his big win was in the Gr.1 Del Mar Futrity. I thought maybe Saratoga Six was in another barn, but I guess he wasn't it's devestating. Gone Hollywood also died, and three quarter horses Fredricksburg, Southern Cartel and The Down Side.
Jazil wins the 2006 Belmont Stakes! Considering the horse never race on the track before I was shocked. Plus he seemed not to be able to go past a mile and a sixteenth distance according to his stats.
Well his stat's obviously mean nothing, I thought he'd do better than he did in the Derby but I didn't think he'd win! He had a nice ride by his rider too whose foot came out of the irons.
Everyone kept saying he they thought the added distance would help him and it did, Bluegrass Cat suprised me the most I didn't think he'd get the distance, Steppenwolfer did fire like I thought he did he looked good and the moderate half :47 was supposed to help him, but Sunriver held him off for place!
Did you guys see the filly in the Oaks flip herself over! And the Coverage on Barbaro at the Beginning got me a little tear in my eye. It was funny when it showed him watching the Belmont! :)
Any way a nice run by Jazil and I hope he stays around, for the Haskell or the Traver's a match race between him and Bernardini may be in store :)
It was in the Acorn that the filly flipped over herself. The stakes record for the Acorn is still held by Ruffian set in 1975. Ruffian was 1/5 of a second off Riva Ridge`s track record that day despite being held back for more than two furlongs at the end of that race. Ruffian would have crushed Riva Ridge.
Why do you want to start fights? Why? Are you not smart enough to know when people say one horse is going to beat another when they never raced each other it starts fights? IMO Riva Ridge was far and away from Ruffian. Also it is not smart to talk back to the owner of the site as in other posts I have recentley read, where is your decency? Beth, once again I thank you for putting up this great site and hope you still keep up your good work of managing it.
Jazil had the lowest speed ratings yesterday and low earnings and still won big. Riva Ridge lost to 50 -1 shot Wichita Oil lol. Poor males lose 93% against good males and poor females lose 93% against good males. What is the difference. You never know the outcome of a horse race. Ruffian has the best Winning Beyers ever awarded a two year old. EVERY horse can lose period and no formula can prove it.
Thank-you Afleet Alex, I enjoy this board just like the rest of you. I have no one to talk to about horse racing (in my own life off the board) so for me it's a relief that when I made this boad that people started coming on. I learned a great deal about horse racing on this board by learning from everyone else. This board is a treat for me as much as it is for everyone else.
Miraculous Miss, that's the name of the filly in the Acorn stakes that unseated jockey Kent Desormeaux and fell to the ground in the gate, and was scratched from the race. I forgot the name of the filly she kicked but according to Belmont Park's website (if I"m reading it right) I think her name is Wonder Lady Anne L.
A race over the track has no effect on a horses chances to win that day.
Horses that have run at a given track win 25 % of all starts.
Horses that have NOT run at a given track win 25% of all starts.
There is no impact value at all in a race over the track.
I have stated it poorly. If a horse figures to win on speed,class, earning, distance etc then that horse wins 25% of the time if it had a race over the track or NOT.
Most astute trainers make sure that their charges have at least one morning of trackwork when attempting to win a race at a totally new track, especially if it's a Group or Stakes race.
So when you say that a horse has never raced at a track before, you may be right, but chances are that he has worked at the track and is familiar with the layout of the track itself.
Every track is different, but they all have one thing in common, a winning post, and it's important for a horse to know where it is, after all, it's hard for a jockey to time a horse's run to perfection if he's the only one who knows where the winning post is.
Mrs Riddle wanted the public to see MOW set a track record that day. The NY Jockey Club made a ruling in 1918 that no track record would be official unless it is set in competition. Therefore Mrs Riddle asked her niece Mrs Jeffords to enter Hoodwink who had run a race the day before. Hoodwink was in there so MOW record would be recognized as official.
That was not important as Mrs. Jeffords would have to pay a lagre entry fee for Hoodwink and little gain by getting a whole purse for Sam Riddle. Riddle`s wife asked him to let MOW run as he pleased that day and not to hold him back so the public could see MOW set a track record. Riddle asked Feustel if it was ok for MOW to run unrestricted and Feustel agreed. It was not for the purse money involved but for the track record being made official that Hoodwink was entered.
Last time this year, and what a Triple Crown it has been, I can't but imagine what would be different if Barbaro had won the Preakness. Triple Crown Mania.
Well Here is My Picks
1. Steppenwolfer-We will see if he can actually win and run down some horses tomorrow, he should get the distance, but does he have enough tatical late speed to win?
2. Sunriver-The only reason I'm not picking him to win is the farthest he's gone is a mile?! If he can make the distance then it should be his race.
3. Bob and John-You can throw out the Derby because he was done after he was caged in between Barbaro and Showing up, I don't enough if he can keep the distance.
4. Bluegrass Cat-Is he really back? Or did he just run down tried horses in the Derby?
5.Jazil
6.Hemingsway Key
7.Sacred Light
1. Deputy Glitters - could have been up farther in Derby, bad trip cost him, likes Belmont, NO RAIN!!!
2. Steppenwolfer - looks nice, should do well, loves Belmont, will be closer than usual
3. Bluegrass Cat - not much news on him, just a solid horse with a solid foundation
4. Oh So Awesome - Lasix may be his new friend :)
5. Bob and John - Baffert knows his horses...
6. Sunriver - should do well, but his breeding tells me more suited for 9 furlongs
7. Jazil - big turns will affect small horse, if he is game and has kick will be hard to beat
8. Hemingway's Key - getting better every time, may be a sleeper, remember Zito....
9. Sacred Light - liked him when 2nd at Churchill to Nolan's Cat, should excel
10. Platinum Couple - not a big chance, but may do something
11. High Finance - IMO too hyped up, has beaten nothing, and usually seems to get beaten in higher company, needs to drastically improve to have a shot
12. Double Galore - IMO absolutely no chance, will most likely get dead last, unless someone is injured
Overview - matters how the race shows up, slow pace = closers won't close that great, Deputy Glitters will stalk should set up well, same with Bluegrass Cat. I expect 2:27 3/5 to 2:29:4/5 for final times, closers will have it tougher than in Derby, don't be too hyped on them. Then again anything can happen it is horseracing, and none of these horses have gone a 1 1/2.
Where did Deputy Glitters finish 2nd to last exactly where I thought he would :) It doesn't matter if he likes the track he is in no class as the same as Jazil or Bernardini or any Grade One Winner.
Bob and John wasn't good at all today either. Steppenwolfer didn't fire like I thought he would either.
So you prefer tips and touts to debating which horse was best in the past.
If High Finace wins it will be the first horse to win the Belmont Stakes off an allowance race since 1968. People said in 1968 Stage Door Johnny beat "nothing" lol and won the Belmont over the Foward Pass horse.
Hey, Yankee Clipper, a little piece of advice (and some info about me) DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING ABOUT ME. You don't know me, and I don't know you, hence the reason why despite your choice of words on this board I don't assume that you have an attitude the size of the Empire State Building. So don't assume anything about me either okay? Nor anyone else on this board for that matter.
It is not an attitude but I see the posts here. Picking a winners list can be found in every daily newspaper in America. One dosen`t neeed this board for tips and touts a pair that should be avoided by bettors.
Yankee Clipper,
There are 26 pages of everything horse racing on this site, this includes debates on past greats from MOW, Exterminator and Sysonby through Phar Lap, Citation, Secretariat & Seattle Slew to Barbaro.
There are threads on all the Triple Crown races over the period of time that this site has been in existance and even a few tips as to which horse might win.
As a regular here since the beginning of this site, I can assure you that we've had more debates about past greats than you've had hot dinners, and for you to come to a site devoted to great horses and whinge about a link for the runners of the Belmont being posted, then you've Fair Dinkum gotta be kidding.
As long as those debates can be done with respect to other people (I call debates like that a "descussion), I have no problem with a debate/descussion on this board. It's when a person chooses to take an attitude on this board that I step in. We have people from different countries that come to this board, no just America. So even though in America we may see things one way and yes we can get stubborn about seeing things any other way, I intend to make sure that EVERYONE is respected on this board as equals. So as long as a debate/descussion can be done with RESPECT and NO ATTITUDE and/or INSULTS then a debate/descussion is welcome on this board.
Debates are fine if they do not get out of hand but there is no proof as to which horse would win a future race real or an imaginary race. Getting "crazy" about a mythical race is silly and unrealistic. A great horse with a wonderful past record has no gaurantee that he will win a future race even against horses with lesser stats on paper.
So what?? Baseball fans, Football fans, Soccar fans, and other sports fans have been doing it just as long as we (horse racing fans) have been doing it. It's part of the fun, the "What would happen?" or "What could have been" type of thing. Exterminator did exist during the times of Man O' War and yes they could've raced each other if the owners wished but the two horses never met. The same could be said about a number of other great horses in history, they were alive and/or raced at the same as the other but never met.
I agree about not arguing nor insulting. The trick with this board though is, we can't see a poster to know what his/her attitude is, the only thing we have to go on is their words. So depending on their choice of words, even if he/she doesn't mean to come off with an attitiude, the way they word their sentences makes it seem that way.
I know that you are the only one on the board young enought to collect these. But Barbaro will be his own Breyer Horse in October, that is when he is due out (Or released( (I Saw one), and half the proceedings (or money earned) will go to the Barbaro Fund. I just thought you'd be intersted :)
Something that I just found out, I don't know if any of you know this but they found out why his heart is so big. It seem's that Somethingroyal's sire, PRINCEQUILLO had a big heart and passed it down through his daughters, who in turn passed it down through her sons. I thought this was very intersting because Princequillo was dubbed the Best Distance Horse Ever. Obviously Secretariat's heart was bigger than his siblings, but this makes a very intersting story.
The big heart condition in thoroughbreds is referred to as the "X-factor". From what I have read, stallions can only pass the big-heart gene to their daughters, but not their sons. But then the daughters can pass the gene to their sons, causing them to have big hearts.
So if Princequillo had a big heart, he no doubt got the gene from his dam, not his sire.
I guess the hot ticket is to mate big-heart stallions with daughters of other big-heart stallions, which should make it possible for the stallion's male offspring to have the big-heart condition from the mother's gene, and also improve the odds of the stallion's female offspring being homozygous for the big-heart gene. That (being homozygous) would improve the chances that the stallion's female offspring will have "big heart" sons when they are bred.
There's more to being a great thoroughbred than just the big-heart condition, like conformation, for example. But I can't imagine why a thoroughbred with the big-heart condition wouldn't be a better runner than he would have been without it.
I think this is more wide open then the derby. There we acutally had some legidament favorites, Barbaro, Brother Derek, Lawyer Ron. You know it's not much of field when the 2nd place runner up is the favorite. I think the favorite should be Bob and John if I'm correct he's the only Grade One Winner in the field but that's my opinion.
Steppenwolfer have hit the board in all is last 9 starts. he may not won grade 1(i dunno if he did or not)but i think he still has a great cgance of winning
I know it's a bit early in the year yet to talk about this, but the guest track for the 2006 Breeders' Cup has alreayd been chosen. Y'all can find all the information on the track and the races at
http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=other&id=4685&style=purple
Beth Chaisson
This message has been edited by bmc86 on Jun 8, 2006 9:12 PM
A race is a walkover when only 1 horse enters it. It most normally occurs at or towards the end of a racing season, where one horse has proved so dominant throughout the season that none of the other trainers want any part of him any more. What the horse chooses to do after the race starts (gate opens/starting barrier drops, etc.) is up to the trainer. Some horses in this situation just walk or jog slowly around the track from the start to the finish line, and others use the opportunity like a time trial, to give those at the track a show for their money. Of course, walking/jogging is a lot less stressful to the horse.
Yes, it was his only walk-over, he and Citation are the two big horses to have a walk over. Man O War pretty much had one in the Lawerence Realization when the other horse just quite.
Hoodwink was in the race (the 1920 Lawrence Realization) only to pick up the second-place money, not to actually compete against Man o'War - kind of like a paid workout. The comment in the Daily Racing Form for that race was "Hoodwink made no effort to keep pace with the leader".
Yes exactly, he conceed defeat after he was 20 length's behind Man O War. That's when he pulled up, but Man O War's jock couldn't stop MOW so he just ran the race by himself sort of like a "walk over"
Despite alleged mismanagement, Man O War`s stud career was anywhere from superb to phenomenal. During his 22 seasons at stud, Big Red was never bred to more than 25 mares in any one season,resulting in an average crop of 17.3 foals. Man O War sired 381 offspring, 62 or 16.3% became stakes winners.
One undeniable fact regarding Man O War`s sire career is that he was not able to maintain his tremendous early rate of siring top class runners.
First five years: 29% Stakes winners
Next eight years : 16.1% Stakes winners
Last nine years: 8.1% winners.
Man O War captured one sire title in 1926. He was second three other years. Broomstick won 3 sire titles.
In 1942 Man O War became the leader in Progeny Earnings in America. Man`s foals collectively had earned more money than any other American sire to the time. Man Replaced Fair Play his own sire as Progeny earnings leader in USA.
many sire when they get older to the end of the stud career they do become less succeful has stud. but with some exception and he would have been a beeter stud if breed to more and better mares. and i looked up his foals and alot raced over 100 times so he ovesly had duribale foals.
In another thread, I made the observation that even in a great horse’s best season, it was quite rare for the horse to go undefeated. So for those on the board who would find it interesting, here are the undefeated best seasons (3-year old seasons and up) of the horses in Blood-Horse magazine’s top 100 U.S. 20th century thoroughbreds, with a minimum of 5 races being required for listing.
These lists are interesting, in part because of the great horses whose best seasons qualified them to be listed, and in part because of the great horses who were not as successful in their best seasons, who did not qualify for listing. I hope some of you find this interesting.
yea it was good but if u think about it he may have been good and never lost but he was know for bad legs. if the belmont was any longer Fair Play probaly would have won with the fact the jockey said his leg were starteing to bother him. or thats just what i read in that cooper treat book about man o war.
but that when he was 3 so
yea it was so rainiy that day they didn`t time it or they could barly see teh horses. to bad it wasn`t really seen that would have been a cool race to see with Fair Play an dColin battling to the finish line. it is said that as soon as colin pasted the finish line Fair Play passe dhim up. but i don`t know if its true
Thanks for the list, i find it very interesting. Looking over it, I'd have to say another very underrated horse is Buckpasser. Doesn't get much mention on this board, but won 15 in a row, and also held the world record at one mile for a short time. And 13 wins in 14 starts is phenomenal, can only be matched by Citation's incredible 3 year old season. Does anyone agree with me on the mighty Buckpasser? He may well have been better than his sire, Tom Fool.
Luke Blackburn in 1880 won 22 0f 24 races. Luke Blackburn did something no other thoroughbred would approach. He won 7 Major Stakes races in 21 days.
A major stakes win every three days and he did it against All Ages and distances, from 6 furlongs to 2 miles, then set the World record for two miles August 12, 1880 at 3:35 1/4. He was a 3 year old who beat older horses very often during that streak. Jimmy McLaughlin the jockey could hardly stand after a race on Luke Blackburn because Blackburn was the most muscular horse in history. A Butcher Boys horse owned by the Dwyer brothers.
Hindoo the next year won 18 Stakes in a row and that is still the record.
Hindoo did it in 4 months while todays horses take two years to run 18 races.
McLaughlin rode both horses and he thought Blackburn was better than Hindoo.
Jimmy Rowe Sr. trained both horses and he thought Hindoo was better.
Experts in the know can`t decide which is the best horse ever.
I personally think he has the best chance, Bluegrass Cat is a nice choice but I don't think he can pull it off. Steppenwolfer is training great (very nice 6 furlong work on Saturday 1:11 Certianly Not Pedestrian Time.) I think he can pull it off and avenge his Sire Apititude who was the Beaten Favorite in 2000 (Only Beaten a Length and a Half) the last time we had no Preakness or Derby winner in the Field!
Second Time's the Charm? What Do You Guys Think?
I love his owner's too who actually still breed for stamina and not speed, Maybe Steppenwolfer will be the neck big Stamina Sire!
Recently I began reading the Book on the Triple Crown Winners which I checked out from our local Library. I was intersted to find about 20 pages on each horses and its contenders(Man O War) had to be in the book :). But I also found a DVD in which it had an 100 Minute History Channel Documentary on Horse Racing. I really enjoyed it it was very informatable it had Man O War, Eddie Acaro, Citation, Calument Farm, Secretariat *Including his entire Belmont :)*, Seattle Slew, and Woody Stephens 5 Belmonts. It was a little dated my guess is 2001 because Slew was still alive, but the book was published I believe in 04 & or 05!
I just wanted to share my thoughts and I advise anyone who loves reading about horse racing to read it!
thanks
Article: Pletcher Has Two Big Chances to Win First Triple Crown Race
by
Pletcher Has Two Big Chances to Win First Triple Crown Race
Sun 5, 3:37 PM (ET) http://sports.iwon.com/news/06052006/v2130.html
By RICHARD ROSENBLATT
NEW YORK (AP) - The Belmont Stakes may be lacking star power without the Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winners, but that doesn't bother Todd Pletcher.
The nation's top trainer is still looking for that elusive first victory in a Triple Crown race, and he just may have the horses to pull it off in Saturday's $1 million Belmont.
Pletcher will saddle two of the most accomplished 3-year-olds in the race, Derby runner-up Bluegrass Cat and Peter Pan Stakes winner Sunriver.
"I would think we are in the best position we've been in - with both horses," Pletcher said Monday outside his barn after his colts had their final tuneups before the 1˝-mile race.
Without injured Derby winner Barbaro and Preakness winner Bernardini in the field, Pletcher's horses are likely to be among the favorites in a probable field of 12. The post position draw is Wednesday.
Bluegrass Cat was among the early Derby favorites before a disappointing fourth-place finish in the Blue Grass Stakes, 21\ lengths behind the winner Sinister Minister. But the son of Storm Cat rebounded with a solid effort in the Derby at 30-1 odds.
Sunriver, meanwhile, didn't have enough graded stakes earnings to make the Derby field, so Pletcher had him ready for the Peter Pan at Belmont on May 20.
The colts are two of only four horses set for the Belmont with at least one graded stakes victory. Bluegrass Cat won the Grade 3 Nashua and the Grade 2 Remsen as a 2-year-old; the Peter Pan is a Grade 2 race. The others are Bob and John (Grade 1 Wood Memorial) and Deputy Glitters (Grade 3 Tampa Bay Derby).
Pletcher has won many of the biggest races with a star-studded stable totaling about 175 horses, though he's well aware of his 0-fer at Triple Crown time - he's 0-for-14 in the Derby, 0-for-1 in the Preakness and 0-for-4 in the Belmont.
"As far as the Derby goes, 0-for-14 doesn't look great, but when you look into it closer the horses ran pretty well," Pletcher said. "But (people) only remember one thing ... "
In six Derbies, Pletcher has finished second with Bluegrass Cat and Invisible Ink (2001), third with Impeachment (2000) and fourth with Limehouse (2004) and More Than Ready (2000).
"We had horses ready to run, and they ran the best race they were capable of running that day," he said. "Unfortunately, it wasn't good enough to win it."
The timing seems right for a Pletcher breakthrough in the Belmont.
Bluegrass Cat is 2-for-2 over the Belmont track and will be reunited with John Velazquez, who missed the Derby while recuperating from a cracked shoulder blade and bruised ribs.
The colt has four victories in eight starts, with earnings of $761,280 for WinStar Farm.
"I'm feeling very confident with this horse," Velazquez said. "The only race that was a little disappointment to me was the one in Keeneland (the Blue Grass). He's a very good horse. I've always liked him. He's won at Belmont ... it's really a big plus."
Sunriver, a son of Saint Ballado, comes into the Belmont off a neck victory in the 1 1/8-mile Peter Pan. The bay colt will be ridden again by Rafael Bejarano.
Owned by Aaron and Marie Jones, Sunriver has three victories in seven starts for earnings of $561,520.
"I think the pedigree will help them in a mile-and-a-half situation," Pletcher said. "Although one is three weeks and one is five weeks since their last race, both are set up well for a good race here. I'm pretty happy."
^BELMONT NOTES:@ Bluegrass Cat worked five furlongs in 1:01.72, while Sunriver worked the same distance in 1:00.24. Both worked on Belmont's training track ... Bob and John worked six furlongs in 1:12.20 at Santa Anita in his final tuneup. Trainer Bob Baffert's colt will be shipped to New York from California on Wednesday.
To see which horse was the best ever that horse would have to race against every other great horse that ever lived which is clearly impossible. Ergo that can not be worked out. It would be just speculation. Gosh so much fighting about something which can never be demonstrated.
I am a baseball fan myself and baseball loves its stats but we acknowledge there is no way to compare the 1927 Yankees with the 1996 Yankees or any other teams the played at different times in history.
Isn't the whole idea of professional sport to find out who is the best individual/team of a particular sport?
So isn't it just human nature to speculate as to the 'best of the best' of those individuals/teams.
There is no right or wrong answer, it's just a personal opinion of people who follow a particular sport as to who they consider to be the greatest exponent of that sport.
Gee, give us a break, it's bad enough already with the 'thought police' and the politically correct brigade telling us what we can and can't say and do, at least let us keep and debate our own opinions!
I am not saying you should not keep your debates alive. Keep them I think that is great but you should realize that the fact you can not prove which horse is best is the very reason the debate lives on. If your top horses ever did race with each other and one or the other kept winng a majority of races the debate would cease for all would know which horse was best.
'It Will Go a Long Way to Show What Cloning Can Do,' Contributer Says
WINNEMUCCA, Nev. (June 4) - Two qualifying heats, two wire-to-wire victories, two nearly identical times. It was almost like the same mule won twice. Idaho Gem, the world's first equine clone, and his brother, Idaho Star, made successful debuts Saturday in what scientists billed as the first professional competition between clones of any kind.
The demise of Horatio Nelson who was Euthanized after injuries sustained in yesterday's Vodafone Epsom Derby overshadowed one of the most exciting Epsom Derby's in the past 8 years. Trainer Aidan O'Brien was at the stalls to supervise his four runners and could be seen counsulting with Fallon. Speaking at Chantilly today when he will ride the favorite for the Prix du Jockey-Club Aussie Rules, Fallon was adamant that he and O'Brien had made a joint decision that there was no reason not to let Horatio Nelson take hi chance. "I just felt he was a little bit flat-he wasn't giving the same bounce that he had done" said Fallon "But he was fine when I trotted him up and down a few times, in fact the more I trotted him the better he felt. I was happy with him. If I wasn't I wouldn't have gone round on him." "He travelled brilliantly on the snaff in the race then we went to go challenge and it happened. Obviously it must have been one of the uneven bits of ground that you can get on the camber at Epsom. He twisted a joint and that did it." "George Baker (who rode Rising Cross the day before in the Epsom Oaks) did something at the same part of the straight. It doesn't take much when you are on the camber for a horse to lose it's footing. The track rides like that-these things happen." Fallon paid tribute to the colt who sent off as the second favorite, on the strength of his top class two-year-old form and great workouts in the build up to the Derby. "It seems strange to say this now but he was one of the best little horses I have ever been around." Fallon said "He wanted to do everything for you, that was his biggest strength. They're the horses you want to be associated with the-the ones with great tempermant who can't do enough for you." "He shouldn't have been beaten in the Dewhurst, even though Sir Percy has gone on to do great things, and with Dylan Thomas so close in third and I know how much better my fellow was it's hard not to think about what might have been."
Aussie Rules attempts to capture two French classics by winning the French Derby. Aussie Rules' competion include Hurricane Cat, Art Deco, Hazeymm and Olympian Odyssey, a very highly regarded german colt Aspectus and french defenders Champs Elysees and Arras. The going at Chantilly yesterday was good to soft, but drying out, by today it should be rated firm and Aussie Rules does like firm ground. Olympian Odyssey heads the British contingent after finishing 3rd to George Washington in the Stan James 2000 Guineas last time out. His trainer Barry Hills said "The extra distance of this race will suit the colt and he has done nicely since his last run. He can act on any ground and it's not a very good race." Art Deco stayed on well to win the Dee Stakes last time out, he will be ridden by jockey Frankie Dettori, winner of the French Derby before with Polytain and again last year with Shamardal. Trainer Charles Edgerton decided to bring Art Deco to Chantilly rather than go to Epsom for the Derby "I'm very pleased with him since Chester where he quickened well and then stayed on at the end." Hazeymm was just touched off by Linda's Lad- who gave him 7 pounds-in the Derby Trial at Lingfield. "He's a lovely horse but very lazy and I've been very pleased with him since his last run." said his trainer Mick Channon. Arras a son of Monsun, is likley to be one of the favorite's, after wins at Saint-Cloud as a two-year old and at Bordeaux-Le Bouscat last out. Paul Harley racing manager to the owners of Arras the von Ullmann family, said yesterday. "Early this year we didn't really know the program of Arras. After he won at Bordeaux Monsieur Fabre told us that he wanted to run the colt in the Jockey-Club and we were delighted. The horse has had a trouble free preperations for the event and we are hoping he runs a big race." Champs Elysees has run just three times and broke his maiden in a class D event over 8 1/2 furlongs at Longchamp last month. He is one of the best bred horses in the race being a brother to Banks Hill. The owners racing manager Teddy Grimthorpe said yesterday. "I hope the clerk of the course keeps his watering can in the shed as all the family like good or firm ground. Champs Elysees settles well and has had racing experience on three occasions but it is a huge jump in class." The Aga Khan has already run the Jockey-Club on six previous occasions and Darsi will carry his silks today. Darsi was an easy winner of a minor stakes at Chantilly in May, but it was over 12 and half furlongs. "It is a pity this race has shortened to it's new distance. Darsi is sure to stay and he is making progress all the time." said trainer Alain de Royer-Dupre. Jean-Claude Rouget goes into the classic with supplementary entry Barastraight and Numide. Both were Group 3 winners last time out. Rouget said "Michael Kinnae will ride Barastraight who has yet to show his best and is a fresh horse. Numide will be held up for a late and will certainly stay the distance."
I have struck out the past three times with my picks. Mainly because I am using the process I use for American racing, and it is very different in Europe so here we go.
i was looking at famous race horse and it was Aussie horses and Peter Pann was one of them but then i looked him up because i though he was american and well there was another page about him and he was an american horse
know i don`t really know much about peter pan so is like 2 of them or something?
Peter Pan was one of the greatest stayers ever in Australia during the 1930's. He was a brilliant chestnut with a silver mane and tail.(if you have ever seen a picture of Flamethrower in his racing days thats what he looked like)He won from 7 furlongs to 2 1/2 miles, won 1932 and 1934 Melbourne Cup's. During his stud career he was restricted to mares of R.R. Dangar(his owner) but still managed to sire Precept(VCR Derby winner)and Peter(Williamstown Cup winner).
Peter Pan of America was foaled in 1904, he was good at long and short distances. His best race at 2 was the Hopeful Stakes when he won by 2 lengths, carrying 130 pounds. The Brighton Handicap was Peter Pan's most dramatic race. He was badly bumped at the start, moved from the back of the field to the front to win by a nose. Peter Pan sired 20% stakes winner's, which is very good. His winners include Pennant, Black Toney, Tryster, Macaw, Prudery, Vexatious and Pandera.
http://www.breyerktm.com/
are breyers new model horses the grey on is Spectacular Bid the black is Sunday Silce and the walking bay is forgeo and the trotting bay(scroll down is afleet ALex and the running bay is Ruffain.
Sir Percy headed out the Maiden Dragon Dancer, in a thrilling renewal of the Epsom Derby. Dylan Thomas finished 3rd a head farthe back. Visindar the 2-1 favorite did not fire, I don't know where he finished. Horatio Nelson, Kieren Fallons mount appeared to break down in the stretch and was pulled up, no other information on his status.
Sadly yes they did. He fractured his cannon and sesamoid bones and dislocated his fetlock joint. There was also ligament and nerve damage, and open wounds, it was a possibility it would have been infected so they put him down, but at least they tried to save him
One of the factors that I've seen mentioned as a reason why Man o-War would run closer to the later star horses (Secretariat, Citation, etc.) than his raw race times would indicate is that MOW raced wearing iron horseshoes and the later stars raced in aluminum horseshoes. Is that really true?
For instance, Omaha wore aluminum shoes when he won the TC in 1935. I've been unable to determine what shoes Gallant Fox wore in his TC campaign of 1930, but I have seen mention of select thoroughbreds racing in aluminum horseshoes as far back as the 1870's. So are we really certain that MOW raced in iron shoes?
And if MOW and the other thoroughbred racers were really still using iron horseshoes in 1920, does anyone know just when the use of aluminum horseshoes is supposed to have become widespread/standard in American thoroughbred racing?
well i have no clue how long they were in use and when they stop but 4 iron shoes and equal up to a puond or more 4 alumain shoe maybe 8 ounces but I am pretty sure they kept a record of what shoes he wore. but i really do not know sorry
Pierre Lorillard, the tobacco company heir, experimented with aluminum horseshoes in 1877. Aluminum was a rare precious metal used only for jewelry then and Pierre ordered it from Tiffany`s. Parole was a horse owned by Pierre and Parole was a son of Leamington out of Maiden. Parole seemed the least horse among the best in 1877.
Ten Broeck and Tom Ochiltree were thought the best of 1877. To settle the matter of who was best the three raced together on October 24, 1877 at Pimlico. Congress closed both Houses of Government and went to Pimlico with 15,000 other people to see the race. Parole won by 5 with Ten Broeck second and Tom Ochiltree third 12 back. Parole with aluminum shoes beat the best of 1877 while his competition wore iron shoes.
I never said I was at many races. I am into gambling big time since 1967. All the big races were on TV. Howard Huges Network showed it in NY every Saturday for years, two races each day x 50 weeks ayear is 100 races x 40 years is 4,000 races of every top you mention was shown. Also bought DRF every day on way to wrk hour commute to work and one hour back home. 2 hours a day x 250 days a year 500 hours handicapping races. x 40 years 20,000 handicapping hourd. You jealous I have seen a lot more than you in horse racing. You have a suckers opinion about racing. Lucky we do not meet in a bar room. I am a strappy old man. If Citation needed to save himself to win another race he is no great horse. Citation would have enough energy to beat Saggy and still win next out. Sucker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prove it in cort to a moral certainity and beyond a doubt. Acaro would be in jail if you were right. Sucker!! jealous of my time in racing history.
the jockey would not be in jail ok he would never bea bale to legally by a jockey. u are staring to sound like Paula B. a lil. which is the worst thing possible.
John the Gambler I've tried hard to look at your attitude as just your outlook on the sport of horse racing, but at the same time I have told you over and over again that you need to check your attitude before you post and to treat people on this board with respect! But it seems every time you come on this board it's with the intention to insult people and/or start a fight!! THAT I WILL NOT ALLOW ON THIS BOARD!! So consider yourself no longer welcome on this board!! I would like to think you're Gentleman enough I don't have to put a block and stop you from posting on here but just by judging on how you've been on this board with the regulars I won't hold my breath.
I use public computers for internet talk. Won`t soil my home with it. I wont bother you again. I could go to 1000s more public computers where you wont know to block and creat a lot of fights here. I WONT DO IT.
Yo do sound foolish comparing horses who never ran on each other.
Worse those horses people have not been 100% honest with you.
All are mortal flesh and all have lost. No best ever can`t be.
AA praises dishonesty by Citation. That sucks.
He loves The Bid whose trainer stiffs him in biggest profile race in America. Ever horse you praise has not been 100% honest with you. They all suck.
I have a problem with DISHONESTY> I am an honest man at least.
40 years on my butt allowed me to use my head better than wasting time going to the track. I can see clearly the folly in Horse Race betting I have still seen a lot more than you have.
Forty years of sitting in front of the tele watching the races does not equate to 'Time in racing history', it equates to 40 years of sitting on your butt watching TV.
In respect of his "Mr. Know It All" attitude and his contemptuous display of a rigid, condescending, insulting and demanding demeanor, John the Gambler has a lot more in common with the individual "Man O War" -- who has neglected to respond to my May 20th inquiry regarding his posted comments of May 11th.
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Regarding "Owners Choice" posted by Man O War on 5/11/06
by Michael Harrison
Inquiry about Bernie Schwartz
Question: WHO IS BERNIE SCHWARTZ??? Please provide confirmation cites (such as DRF or NY Times articles; copies of any public interviews he gave; location of published writings of his, etc) to establish and confirm his views and comments. How old was Bernie Schwartz in 1973??? Is Bernie Schwartz still living? If not, in what year did he die? -- must be after 1973. Is Bernie Schwartz related to the renowned and long-time DRF morning clocker Gene (Frenchy) Schwartz?? Please tell us. Thank you.
Belmont Park has lowered its admission for the Belmont Stakes as there is no public interest in it this year. LOL with Barbaro hurt and no Preakness winner entered in it it is a low profile race. Belmont Stakes is the oldest Stakes in America if you count the renewals. I have every chart for every Belmont Stakes ever run. First run June 19, 1867 Jerome Park Bronx, NY.
Won by Ruthless a filly ridden by GilPatrick (A JOCKEY SINCE 1828 WHO RODE BOSTON AND LEXINGTON) and saved enough of Ruthless to win by a head over Decaunchey. purse $1,500. Ruthless pulled off the first double as we know it today by winning the Travers also in 1867. The only other filly to win the Belmont Stks was Harry Payne Whitney`s Tonya in 1905. That was the first Belmont Stakes run at Belmont Park. In the 1950`s fillies were not eligible to run the Belmont Stakes for it was for 3 yr old males only during the 1950`s.
Hurricane Run and Makybe Diva. In my opinion Ghostzapper was a good 4 year old, at three he wasn't very outstanding or consistent, then he got injured after his lone race at 5. Hurricane Run has only had one loss his entire career and that was against Shamardal, who until his injury and subsequent retirement was the best horse in Europe last year. Makybe Diva on the other hand raced against the top male and female horses in Australia in the Melbourne Cup and won three times in a row. If it had been just once then I would not have considered her, but three times in a row, and she had to carry 127.5 pounds a record for filly's and mares in her last Melbourne Cup win that's incredible. There is not much else you can say about "the diva" she was spectacular. Azeri was a good race horse, I just don't think she was the best in the past 6 years. The one time she went against males she did poorly did great against her own sex, in my opinion not the best filly or mare to race since 2000.
Afleet Alex does give no sound logic to “picks” He claims these horses are better than MOW. AS a betting man I fail to grasp he logic.
Re: Man O' War
by Afleet Alex
Ones that I think are greater than MoW include: Secretariat, Citation, Spectacular Bid, Dr. Fager, Swaps, and Seattle Slew. I also think War Admiral is a a probable along with Affirmed and Alydar.
Each of these horses has serious failures on his record and MOW does not have any failures after the Sanford where he collided with TWO MAIDENS AFTER A BAD START AND HIS COLLISION COST HIM 10 TO 12 LENGTHS.
Secretariat weakened in the face of Onion- Aug 4, 1973 Whitney Hcp Saratoga
Secretariat tired badly fading 4 lengths out to Prove Out Woodward Stks Sept29 1973 Belmont Sec lost Wood Memorial also April 21 , 1973
Citation lost twice in his prime and loads of failures after his injury at 3.
Citation lost to a filly Bewitch Aug 16 1947 at Was Park.
Citation lost to Saggy April 12, 1948 HdG No excuses in these failures.
Spectaular Bid lost twice as a two and was “spirit broken by Affirmed another good horse. Bid can`t be best ever another great broke his will to run and beat him.
Axiomatic ! Affirmed was the betting favorite too so most good handicappers thought Affirmed was the better of the two.
Dr Fager has three glaring failures on his record/
Dr Fager raced into defeat by Great White Way a nobody horse who tired Dr Fager out badly. That was Champagne Stks Oct 15, 1966 Aqueduct.
Dr Fager failed again Woodward stakes 1967 could not run 1:09 1/5 and still fight on
10 length Defeat. Mow ran 1:09 3/5 some clockers have it 1:09 1/5 in Dwyer 1920 and was full of run to the end. 1920 track played 10 lengths slower MOW would cremate Dr Fager.
Swaps melted and lost to Nashua Wash Park Aug 30 1955. Nashua drew off to a very handy score. Swaps has 4 other failure not worth mentioning.
Seattle failed against Dr Patches Meadowlands Aug 1978. Failed again in trip west and lost to Exceller after a brilliant run.
Affirmed lost twicw to Alydar and Seattle Slew.
Alydar lost many times.
War Admiral faded in the face of Seabiscuit. Nov 1, 1938 Pimlico
War Admiral was PALE compared to MOW.
No such thing as a best ever MOW was best among the horses Afleex Alex mentioned.
Afleet Alex sounds like a poor handicapper proving BARNUM was right.
That is what I brought up. Afleet Alex just listed the ones he thought were better than Man O' War with no reasoning behind them. The only other that would be very close to Man O' War is Ruffian. She tied the track record for five furlongs in her first race, she also tied the track record in the Fashion stakes, wired in the Spinaway in stakes record time. Won the NYRA filly Triple Crown Acorn Stakes, Mother Goose Stakes and the Coaching Club American Oaks all in stakes record times. The only knock I would have on her is soundness. Her sire Reviewer broke his right rear cannon bone three times during his career and possibly passed on his weak leg bones to her, other than that she comes close to Man O' War.
Secretariat lost to Onion when he has a FEVER and race in 100 Degree Heat!!!
Lost to Prove Out was his only loss that is worth mentioning, he was a tired horse!
Citation lost twice in his 2/3 yr old career due to WHAT HAD TO BE DONE!!
Lost to Bewitch because Ben Jones wanted Bewitch to be champion filly, and possily horse of the year. He gave ORDERS in which what ever one of his three horses was in front be the head of the stretch is allowed to win, the other were to run for place/show!!! You don't go against your trainers or you get fired, its a business!Shows what you know. My grandpa was there and everyone else that was there knew the deal that was going to happen that day! Arcaro who was riding Cy for hte first time didn't want to waste his horse before the Derby, he let Saggy win, I even have quotes on his race, from The Master himself. Older horse career he was plagued by his injury, it's a given that he wasn't at his best.
The Bid could do it all, he could run on the lead, or from behind, in the dirt, in the mud, on the fast track, in the east in the west, setting records all over the place.
Dr. Fager lost to a rabbit A WORLD RECORD SETTING RABBIT!
Swaps lost to Nashua for one reason, HE WAS LAME, and everybody knows it!!!
Seattle Slew was tired when Dr. Patches beat him, his jock even said so, so he was let go by the owners.
Affirmed lost to Alydar due too running on the lead, Alydar picked up the pieces. Affirmed lost to Slew, he was a year YOUNGER, I don't know what is with some people but it is a known FACT a great 4 year old can beat a great 3 yr old, it doesn't take a genius, and every real horseman knows its true, unless they are overly confident.
Alydar was going to be a great older horse, and yes I thought he was going to win the Travers, his win by dq was weak but true.
War Admiral ran the 1 1/2 mile Belmont Stakes with a bleeding hoof, and crushed his father's record. Lost to Seabiscuit, due to not being prepared, had he been ready for the race, yes he would have won.
I've given my reasons, and remember it's my opinion.
John the Gambler you must think Colin and Personal Ensign are the best considering they never lost, then again, shows what you know.
War Admiral only crushed his daddys record becasue the track was faster in 1937 then 1920. and yes what war admiral did in teh Belmont Stakes was a great and cougarous thing. and if Seabiscuit had changed his runing style and gave war admiral the smallest lead War Admiral would have smoked him. Biscuits own trainer said so.
Swaps was said to only beatable if hurt or sick. all theses horses you said are great in there own way and what make horse racing history but in my personl opionon no matter what the excuses the other horses have, Man O` War is the best of the best, he could run long or short, he never had to be in teh very lead and he could run on dry or wet dirt. hwy did he never race on turf? he could win carry alot more weight then any other horse(he had 130 they had 109[or close to there])
but that is Afleet ALex's opinon that they aare all better, so let him have his own opionon.
Those horses still had problems winning because they wwere un fit. MOW was never un fit. Do not give me jive about those horses I saw it and lost bets on it when it happened.
They lost WHATEVER the reason. MOW needed no reason and if Laurin ran Sec on MOW when Sec had a fever Sec would lose to MOW>
MOW was healthier longer and fit to run all the time. Your SUCKER horses need excuses for their loses. I lived tose years your are reading press clips . second hand information.
Great White way beat Dr Fager into defeat.
Hedevar was three years past a world record he only shared it with 4 others Pia Star Swaps Intentionally etc.
Fact is Sec ran when unfit. Riddle won`t do that.
MOW was more HONEST and ran a faster 6 fl than SEC ever did. And on tracks thaT WERE MUCH SLOWER. SUBORNING A FIX FOR CITATION IS SUCKER TALK. SEC STILL LOST BY 4 WHICH mow NEVER DID. sEC HAS 4 LOSES MOW ONLY ONE WHO CARES WHY
MOW RETAINED WINNING FORM LONGER THAN ANY TOP IN HISTORY.
BARNUM SAID A SUCKER IS BORN EVERY MINUTE AND AFLEET ALEX IS ONE OF THEM. WHAT CAN HIS OPINION BE WORTH AS BEST HANDICAPERS ARE WRONG 90% OF THE TIME. SUCKER TALK. YOU FAVORITES HAVE LOST MORE THAN MOW WHATEVER THE REASON GOES TO PROVE MON HELD WINNING FORM LONGER.
True he never said it. A myth which started in Saratoga 1847.
NY State held a racing fair in Saratoga at Horse Haven which is still used today by horses that race at Saratoga. Lady Sufolk now very old and 30 seconds SLOWER than her prime raced another OLD horse named Moscow. The public bet Lady Suffolk at 5/2 odds and Barnum had his circus there and was falsely accused of saying "A sucker was born every minute" in reference to The Old Grey Mare. Stephen Foster was there and wrote his famous song "The Old Grey Mare aint what she used to be." about Lady Sufolk. Edgar Allen Poe was there also with his girlfriend Lenore. They stayed in a chamber house and Poe wrote "The Raven.'
All happened Aug 15, 1847. The barns built then 1847 were used by MOW when he raced at Saratoga 72 years later and are still used today by horses that race at the Spa. Saratoga is the oldest and grandest Track in America, The Queen of North American tracks. I love Saratoga indeed. I can`t get enough of it.
"SUBORNING A FIX FOR CITATION IS SUCKER TALK." John the Gambler you obviously know nothing about that race or Citation my grandpa was THERE the fix was in, Ben/Jimmy Jones have said numerous times that, that was one of the biggest mistakes in their training careers!! Once you have knowledge of this race, come back and show it, it's obvious you haven't looked far enough into history, and I guarantee you weren't at all the horses races that I named, you remind me of other stupid people that used to be on this board, they were wrong and you are wrong!
I grant you there are other greats - and all those you mentioned are contenders, especially (IMHO) Secretariat, it's always difficult to name 'the best' of anything...but MoW is still the best to me...
Apparently the bookies are so confident Visindar is going to win they actualy opened betting on what the margin of victory will be. As I found out early on in my years of following horse racing, and we have all been reminded of recently "there is no sure thing in horse racing". If you listened to what Visindar's trainer Andre Fabre and his jockey Christophe Soumillon, you might think Europe is in the Midst of the equine equivalent of the second coming. But I don't buy it Visindar is still the betting favorite, however those who saw his last when at Saint-Cloud say it was very workmanlike. Visindar really hasn't raced "anybody" in his three career starts it's unknown how he will respond if he gets in a duel with the likes of a Sir Percy or Horatio Nelson. Kerien Fallon made his decision on which ballydoyle galloper he would ride in the Derby. When it was announced he had chosen to ride Horatio Nelson, he went from the 5th choice to 2nd choice, no jockey in the U.S. has that type of an affect. Sir Percy is looking very good he has been training especially well. The only supplementary entry in the Derby Papal Bull won the Europe Bank Chester Vase, a son of Montjeu, Montjeu has also sired Motivator, Scorpion and Hurricane Run the three top three year olds of 2005. Montjeu has made a name for himself with in the sire ranks, after a spectacular race career. Perfectly breed for 1 1/2 miles he has passed this on as all three of the afore mentioned sons won at 1 1/2 miles. Papal Bull should be able to go the 1 1/2 miles of the Derby. It should be yielding ground Saturday which Papal Bull also likes. Here are my top four picks
1.Papal Bull
2.Visindar
3.Horation Nelson
4.Sir Percy
"The stewards and Dr. David Zipf, watched the slow motion replay," Matz told Bloodhorse. "They said it looked like Brother Derek's right foot hit him in the pastern. The front foot was stuck way out and as soon as it happened he head went up. If he was struck, he suffered no cuts at all. They basically said they're 80 percent sure he was hit someplace where he went off balance. We thought the condylar fracture might have happened first, but maybe it was just the opposite where the pastern went first and then it went up to the condylar fracture."
Track president and chief operating officer Lou Raffetto said it was "pretty conclusive."
"We didn't want to make a big deal of this, because what happened happened, and you can't change that," Raffetto told Bloodhorse. "We're not trying to defend ourselves; we don't feel we have anything to defend. We just watched it and sent the DVD to Michael, and he hasn't had the time to really look at it carefully. You have to look at it frame by frame to really appreciate it, which is what we did. We watched the head-on, the pan, and the stills.
"It's clear that Barbaro is inside of Sweetnorthernsaint in the three path before they get to the shadow of the building. And then he's clearly behind him two jumps later, and you can see that he drifts out from the head-on. Then when you go to the pan, you can see Brother Derek two or three lengths behind him and running up to the field. He runs into a spot just as Barbaro drifts out into the same spot. As they come to where the shadow of the building crosses the track, near the eighth pole, you see Brother Derek reach out with his right front foot, and just when it appears to make contact with Barbaro's right hind, Barbaro's head goes up, and you see (Alex) Solis (on Brother Derek) pull out with his right shoulder. And when Barbaro's head goes up, you can see his right hind leg twist out sideways and he puts the leg down awkwardly.
If this is true I wish it was the other way around and Barbaro wasn't the one hurt! I know that mean but if it is truly Brother Derek's fault he is going to lose all fan support!
George Washington was found to have been injured after his defeat in the Irish 2000 Guineas. Initially George was thought to have come out of his defeat at Curragh racecourse Saturday fine, but when he started his morning workout on Monday he was found to be slightly lame. Trainer Aidan O'Brien discovered that George had pulled some muscles over his hip, which has put his rematch with Araafa in the St. James Palace Stakes in doubt. "George Washington seemed fine to be fine when we walked him on Sunday." O'Brien said "He has pulled some muscles above his hip it will be a few day before we know how long it will be before we can run him again. Plans for him are on hold.".
Maybe I am but in reading the posts here about all time greats I notice it is youngsters who were never been "burned" by that idea. No such thing as a best ever. I know the horses you praise have all been STIFFED by their people. How do you fall in love with them?
Secretariat forced to run when his people know he is out of shape.
I recall Turcotte saying "Secretariat is not himself."
The horse had a fever and was well off form, Laurin was forced to run him knowing he was not sharp BECAUSE Chenery had a TV contract with the NYRA and had to run him,so The "Greatest Ever# is defeated by Onion a horse of no distinction and that got me mad that day too.
Secretariat again is forced to run against Prove Out for the same TV contrat with the NYRA. Riva Ridge can`t stand the mud so Laurin had to insert Secretariat for Riva Ridge. Sec was ill trained for the race and lost BADLY losing by 4 or 5 points.
Embarassing yes?
The public wagered (myself included) to the tune of millions of dollars and was all lost on a horse whose people KNEW he was not fit to race.
Delp KNEW BID stepped on a safety pin and was not fit to race.
Did he scratch him? NO! Bid ran and lost but the public lost millions in bets on the *Greatest Ever* who was not FIT to race.
Seattle Slew sent west when his people knew he needed resting. He was out of shape. Public duped again from millions in bets.
Majestic Prince in 69 forced by his owner to run The Belmont when he was lame. Wtrecked his career and public again lost sucker bets on horse not fit to race.
NO such thing as a best ever and do not even think about it.
They all seem to lose. You do have a childish approach to it here missing the reality of it.
MOW was better managed by Riddle than any of the "Greats" that are praise on here. Riddle never forced MOW to race when he was not fit to run. Tip your hat to Riddle. That`s qwhy MOW has the best win% of any top in 80 years past.
One thing about MOW is at 3 HE SCARED ALL OPPONNENETS AWAY.
Donaconna had a hard time recovering from the Belmont against Riddle`s horse and Kilmer who owned Exterminator saw the TDS at MOW Withers Stakes. MOW ran the 3rd race May 29, 1920. Mile time 1:34 Exterminator ran the 4th race May 29 1920 mile time 1:37 and Exterminator lost that day. MOW was 15 points better at the same track, same day, same surface. Kilmer decided that day never to run against MOW. Owners thought their horses would only learn to lose against MOW so no takers. Only the very wealthy dared to run on MOW for they could afford to lose.
Yellow Hand owned by R.T Wilson President of Saratoga Track (Very rich man)
Donnaconna owned by Loft Candy Company
Upset, and a few others owned by Harry Payne Whitney and Harry Payne Whitney paid more Income Taxes in 1922 than John D Rockefeller.
The average owner could not afford to get his horse"brain sour" running on MOW turf.
Cant say best ever (NO SUCH THING) but MOW struck fear into the opponnents as no top you parise on this board.
John the 'Clueless',
Using your reasoning, it is also safe to say there is no greatest, boxer, golfer, tennis player, Formula 1 driver, baseballer, cricketer, basketballer...etc...etc.
If you don't want to have an opinion, then that's fine, but don't come here and tell us that because you can't work out who's hot and who's not, that no one else is allowed to form an opinion on who they believe to be the best galloper of all time.
No one can beat the races or any gambing game, no matter how smart he is.
There is no best ever in any sport as all are human and subject to life`s limitations and mortality. To be the best ever and INVINCIBLE only GOD qualifies. I have see too many best evrs lose. No such thing.
I don't recall ever seeing GOD racing at Churchill Downs, teeing off at the PGA or belting them out of the stadium in the World Series.
So until we see it, we'll just have to settle for the 'best ever' amongst us mere mortals, which has always been the case anyway.
I do not believe in *best ever* mortals. If you do fine with me.
Hero worship is part of human nature but it is misplaced if you put it into horses or humans who compete for sports titles. There is only a *hot* present top who will one day fade away in any sport. Who can always be on top? The wheel of fortune spins round and round. The greatest ever syndrom is over worked and over rated.
Can y'all cool it please?? John the Gambler, I respect your views as a gambler as to the idea of there being no "Greatest Ever" race horse or whatever, but PLEASE check your attitude at the door. Anyone who is a fan and NOT a gambler of any sport has a favorite baseball player, football player, race horse, etc. So when we ask "Who do you think is the greatest racehorse?" that's simply asking "Who is your favorite race horse? Who do you think has a lot of racing talent?" So please calm down when someone askes "Who do you think is the greatest race horse?" because if you've looked at some of the older boards of the past for this forum you'll know that the question comes up from time to time, and I only ask that everyone's opinion is respected and no one cops an attitude simpley because he/she disagrees.
To see which horse was the best ever that horse would have to race against every other great horse that ever lived which is clearly impossible. Ergo that can not be worked out. It would be just speculation. Gosh so much fighting about something which can never be demonstrated.
The undefeated french based colt Visindar is looking to roll through and take Britains most coveted flat race for three olds the Vodafone Epsom Derby this Saturday. The son of 2000 Derby winner Sinndar has a spotless record and coming off an impressive victory in the grade 2 Prix Greffulhe, is the heavy favorite in the 1 1/2 mile Derby. The full field is not determined as of yet, but the defender of Britain is the superb Sir Percy. Undefeated at two, Britain's champion 2 year old of 2005, a respectable 2nd in his first start of the season in the Stan James 2000 Guineas to George Washington. It was reported that he was sore and stiff for the first time in his career after the 2000 Guineas, most likley he got jarred from the firm ground that day. Marcus Tregoning Sir Percy's trainer, is increasingly positive, Sir Percy is apparently working more fluent his sorness has subsided. It should be a good race, the ground is excpected to be soft to yeilding for Saturday which will benefit Sir Percy as he likes some cut in the ground. Sir Percy will love the 1 1/2 miles it is still undetermined how Visindar will react to the distance.
If Visindar is succesful in the Derby. There is chance for British revenge, as Aussie Rules the dramatic winner of the Poule d' Essai des Poulains aka the French 2000 Guineas will be trying to take two french classics as he goes for the French Derby not much else info on the race yet, more to come.
In light of Barbaro's injury, I would say it's time that horse racing make a serious change. I have heard two solutions to the problem that has been plauging racing. Which is the American thoroughbred has been bred to go faster and faster and has left the stamina and durability behind. There are two conceivable solutions to the problem. I will lay them both out on the table and we can discuss, but please lets keep it civilized no arguements. The first is a more of a short term change, to the Triple Crown schedule from 5 weeks to 9 weeks. Moving the Preakness to the first Saturday in June and pushing the Belmont back to July 4th, to make it less grueling for the modern thoroughbred the sport would benefit from the extra promotion in extending the series, and it would also increase the competion level, there would be more horse sticking around for the whole series, it would also give late season foals a chance to mature and catch up to the rest of the group. Many of the detractors of this say that it would take away the accomplishments of the first eleven Triple Crown winners. I have an opinion on that. It wouldn't put into question the first eleven Triple Crown winner, if the schedule was changed and a horse did win the Triple Crown it would put into question the validity of that horse. In my mind horse racing relies on the Triple Crown right now to bring in potential fans, it should not revolve around it.
The second solution to the same problem is to make a serious change in America's breeding more soundness and more stamina. Here's my take. I have brought this issue up many times before Barbaro's injury, with people in the industry, they really didn't seem to budge on the issue, they have to do something now. This problem started in the 80's when buyers from Europe and Japan bought our blue blooded stock. It made the greedy bloodstock agents rich, but severley depleted the gene pool. As yearling prices increased, and sales became a much bigger money game than racing, stud farms began to breed for looks and speed, not stamina and durability. Nowadays 2 year old sales pay big bucks for horses that run extremely fast furlongs in 12 seconds, as immature young horses there bones are not set right. As a result of this horses now run faster, but not farther race less, but sometimes train very hard. The thing in horse racing now is to breed or buy a horse, that at 2 years old that can outrun it's physical limitations, earn millions of dollars, contest a classic or two and then retire to the breeding shed and repeat the process again. Thoroughbreds back in the day used to carry weights that would be unthinkable today. Kelso carried 130 pounds to victory in the 1961 Met Mile if lets say Nick Zito were to do that today he would be ending a horses career. Thoroughbreds used to contest distances that would test a horses stamina to the fullest. Today the 1 1/2 mile Belmont distance is considered rare. It was also not uncommon to see a horse even superstar's race every week, sometimes twice week. Today if we see a horse race more than once a month it's a miracle.
Many have looked toward a third possible solution, and that is changing the racing surface the recent thing is Polytrack is said to be the saviour of the sport. It seems the only thing not subject to change for the better is the horse. Consider Smarty Jones, who captured the hearts of thousands of racing fans when he attempted the Belmont as a Triple Crown winner. Not to long after his faliure he was retired due to injury. Ghostzapper, who I thought was the best horse in the past 10 years and probably the only modern horse that could have raced well against the likes of Seattle Slew and Affirmed, he was one of the fastest to ever set a hoof on the track yet his sporadic racing schedule was still not enough to prevent injury and he was retired. Smarty Jones, Afleet Alex, Point Given are now producing offspring that will inherit their sires fragility. The same applies for the hundreds or however many horses that have been retired in the past two decades. Hopefuly the positives that can be taken from Barbaro's injury, are that it will force people to look at the need of a serious change in racing. The greatest thing for racing would be a return to the glory days of racing in the 30's and 40's when racing was one of the big three sports in America. When the superstars would race every week or two and fans come out in droves to see them. Unfortanetly it will probably never get back to that point, today horses do not stay around long enough for potential fans to latch onto. When the stars are retired early the casual fans feel cheated, and refuse to invest the same amount of energy and heart when another star comes along becuase they know that it won't last. Horse racing does not need to have more gambling options and slot machines at the tracks, no offense to John The Gambler and his hardcore gambling buddies. In America gambling is looked on as a disease and betting being mainly associated with horse racing gives it an unfair bad rapp. Racing needs to figure this out, and turn around the sport of kings. Failure to address the obvious issues will be the further downfall of Horse Racing in the Unites States. Surmon over.
I understand your view as a hardcore gambler, horse racing is just another way for you to make money. But to the rare fans of horse racing in America there is no doubt that it has been on the decline in this country since the early 80's, sure there were quality horses in the 80's, my favorite horse Easy Goer raced in that era. But nothing that compares to the 70's and the decades previous. Horse racing in America is just not as huge a draw like it once was. It lacks national unified leadership and competion from casinos and the new poker kick everyone is on in this country. Horse racing doesn't really have anything positive to offer the casual guy that flips through the channels. Barbaro could have been a huge star attracted alot of fans to the sport, but the fragility factor set in and now those potentials have lost intrest, they may check up on him, but they won't want to watch horse racing again becuase there is the possibility that if they start to latch themselve unto a horse, he'll get injured and retire. The casual fan will not want to go through the hassel of that. Sorry about the long posts I get carried away sometimes.
Thoroughbred's have always been fragile its not like this just happened in the last 10 years! They are bred to be tall and slender with long legs, Barbaro and any other horse injured in the last 10 years is just like any horse who was injured in the 20's 30's 40's 50's you get the point. Some did say that Mr. Prospector blood make's horses more fragile? I don't see how this is possible is this true has anyone else heard this? I agree with your point on horses continuing to get fragile. However Horses Like Smarty Jones were only retired for stud value, his injury was VERY minor He could of easily been back the next year but he wasn't because of money!! That's pretty much what anyone one see's in horses is Money not the love or the beauty of the game. Afleet Alex had very good strong bone structure but brittle bone as a lose of blood supply was his undoing not fragility. I mean the horse won the Belmont impressively obviously on a hurt leg.
I disagree with the New Plan of the Triple Crown being 9 Weeks apart! If no other horses can accomplish it then so be it! Those 11 horses were great and thats what makes them great! I think the tracks need to be switched to Poly Surface if its safer for horses i'm all for it :)
I like this view on the sport it is from another forum:
......... The only things that need to be done are to toughen up these horses and prepare them for battle, as far as I'm concerned what needs to be done is, better breeding, no roids, performance enhancers, bute, etc., and NO POLYTRACK (must I say it again.
Now to elaborate on each part, since the use of steroids, bute, enhancers on horses, that started on horses in the late 60's early 70's as being legal in racing, the breed has steadily gone down hill, up untill the 90's were it was at a second all time low in the number of horses racing. My point is any inhancer helpful or not, weakens a horses immune system, anything that will help a horse, human, etc. will eventually lead to untold plague weakness in the immune system. The body can not constentley keep taking steroids, etc. without getting weaker especailly in sports; its proven. Anything that is chemically helpful to make a better performance has setbacks, a statistic I heard on humans is that if a human is given "performance enhancers" cough cough "roids" the person's immune system will weaken and may eventually lead to a fatallity by the time the person is twenty-three and they started using the enhancers at twelve. To me this seems true, some say it isn't but it is supposedly proven. This will most likely if not 100% likely will have the same effect on horses or any athletic animal, but that isn't done to horses daily. In 2005 of the twenty horses that ran in the Derby only two didn't use steroids. Those two are still racing at the highest levels - Don't Get Mad and someone else (I forgot). My point is lets go back to when horses were sounds a.k.a NO ROIDS/BUTE ALLOWED BEFORE RACES OR WITH ALREADY SOUND HORSES.
Now onto the "toughness" it is a proven fact if a horse is raced as a young horse {2 year old} he will be stronger throughout his racing career, obviouslly this doesn't work with all horses, but on average it is the right way to do it. They ran more in the olden days and didn't use roids, MORE SOUND.
Now onto breeding, this will be short and sweet. BREEDERS WHO ARE SMART SHOULD STOP INBREEDING SO MUCH AND SHOULD STOP BREEDING SPEED TO SPEED, EXCEPT FOR A FEW.
And finally one of the most talked/argued things in the horseracing world -- polytrack. Working a horse on harder ground will toughen it up. If we start working horses on this "polytack" then they will get weaker, no doubt in my mind. Anytime you take naturals out of a "natural sport" bad things happen. A great example of this is steroids, enhancers, etc. Come on people it is staring us in the face, and yet we can't wake up. We did something we thought would help the horse, and it did bute, etc. was allowed starting in the late 60's early 70's, I am throughly, 100% convinced that the bute, enchancers, etc. has destroyed a lot of the breeding and horses. It was used to "soften up" it helped for 20 years, thats it 20 years and now look at where we are at. Horses are breaking down a lot now aren't they, ever since the enhancers finally kicked in and back fired on the breed. There has never been this much falling apart on the track never ever ever happened nearly as much as it does now, and you have to be blind not to notice it, the people in New York were smart they waited to buy in and they knew it could wreck the breed, but since every one was doing it they felt forced to. The point is polytrack most likely will do the same thing, you are taking a synthetic material and making the thing to help make horses not break down as much. Bute, etc. was the same until it back fired. Yet people still are scratching there heads, shows me something they still haven't figured it out. It isn't that hard to phathom. Karen Taylor once said if I'm correct that racing should go back to the old ways of no use of "enhancers". If I'm also correct her horse Seattle Slew only used bute, etc. once in his 2,3 year old career and that was becuase he was sore after running at Churchill so they gave it to him for the Preakness. She was smart not to boost him up becasue he has surely has left a mark on the breed. Storm Cat is another great example: great sire becuase he wasn't "juiced up" his offspring are mostly strong, fast, and SOUND runners. My point is if we "soften up" again in the long run we will mostly likely look back in 20 years or so and say "Where did we go wrong?"
Keep in mind these are just my opinions and that I'm not trying to offend anyone.
Thoroughbreds are athletes not machines, and like any athlete who physicaly puts a strain on there body it is prone to injury. Let me ask you a question Horse Racing Fan. Do you think that any American thoroughbred today or with in the past 23 years could go to Britain and compete in the Ascot Gold Cup?.(excluding Easy Goer who probably could have) The Ascot Gold Cup by the way is contested at 2 miles and 4 furlongs. Of course Smarty Jones was retired for his stud value and he has gone off to stud to make more unsound fast stamina defecient little Smarties and the same with Afleet Alex, Point Given the list goes on. When the thoroughbred breed was being developed the breeders ideal parameters were they were looking for a horse that mixed speed with stamina and was durable. The breeders of today are so blinded by money that they cant's see that they are sending unsound speed ball's unto the track. Thorughbreds were never fragile like they are now, and were never intended to be fragile they were intended and purposley bred to go long distances fast and be durable enough to do it alot and possibly be a military charge or riding horse or something else. Thoroughbreds now are bred specificaly for racing and then they go to stud farms. It is a more recent in the past 25 years or so that American thoroughbreds have been fast and fragile. The breeding industry is what will be the downfall of thoroughbred horse racing. Alysheba clipped heels with Bet Twice in the Derby, it was as bad as Afleet Alex. Alysheba was just fine, Afleet Alex was a fragile horse. Not blaming him for that, not put him down.
No line is with out it's faults, but Mr. Prospector has contributed a lot of speed, and not too much stamina alot of his sons have unsoundness issues and passed it on. Raise a Native Mr. Prospector's sire only raced 3 times in his entire career before he was retired at 2 years old due to injury, some suspect that is where Mr. Prospector got his unsoundness from, obviously Raise A Native did not pass it on to all of his sons as Alydar was very sound and durable and passed that on to his sons, particularly Easy Goer, who I think was most like Alydar. There are certain lines of Mr. Prospector that hold up better than others such as Crafty Prospector, Gulch and Kingmambo others that don't hold up well are Carson City, Afleet, Gone West, Seeking The Gold and Forty Niner. It's not just Mr. Prospector, it's the overall degradation of the American bred thoroughbred.
I am not the smartest when it comes to breeding soo...
i think peple do need to stop inbreeding but how when just about every hos is inbred so how do u not inbreed?
I have to disagree with your statment that Alysheba's race was as bad as Afleet Alex. I have watch both races numerous times and no way was it even in the same category. Alysheba barley was knocked in the actual race it looks as if he barely stumbles. A.A's was much worse and anyone who has seen both races should know that.
Maybe easy goer could have but I think its highly unlikely for any American horse to travel that far.
Yes it was as bad. Because it was farther down the stretch, in the Kentucky Derby the first long distance race, of the year for any horse at that point, and up until then Alysheba only had one official career victory in a maiden the year previous. He won the Bluegrass Stakes, but he was dq'd and placed 3rd. While Afleet Alex's stumble may have been more impressive, and the media made that the Preakness story the Alysheba clip was more impressive because of the situitation. After Afleet Alex stumbled he had clear open space in front of him, as Scrappy T veered out. When Alysheba clipped heels, he regained his balance then took a run at the lead, Bet Twice veered in front of him blocking his path and Alysheba slowed down then went around Bet Twice and beat him at the line by 3/4 of a length. Clipping heels no matter how far a horse goes to his knees, slowed his momentum, Alysheba then regained it, only to have his momentum slowed down a second time when Bet Twice veered in front of him, then he further expended himself by going around a sporadic running Bet Twice. Anyone who watched that race several times should be able to pick up on that. Exactly no American horse in the past 25 years or so, can go compete in the Ascot Gold Cup why?.
There are a lot of Stallions that are not mainstream. Like New York stallion Say Florida Sandy by Personal Flag (full brother to Personal Ensign note by John The Gamblers defenition of great as having never lost, Personal Ensign is the "greatest ever") out of a daughter of
a Sweet Candy mare Lolli Lucka Lolli. Live Oak Stud has some intresting Stallions like Eltish by Coxs Ridge out of a Danzig mare Nimble Feet, Hesabull by Dispersal out of a Tri Jet mare Proud Clarioness. I'll give an example of inbreeding. Songandaprayer is by Unbridleds Song who descends from Mr. Prospector by way of Fappiano. Songandaprayers dam Alizea is by Premiership who descends from Raise A Native by way of Exclusive Native, so Unbridled's Song and Alizea are distant cousins. Songandaprayer like I have stated in a previous post is a sire, and breeders are further inbreeding. Like Songandaprayers son Praying for Cash his dam is Cash No Credit by West By West, descendant of Mr. Prospector by Gone West, yet more inbreeding. The way you stop it is a complicated matter, however a start would be to importing stallions Sadler's Wells, Danehill's, Sunday Silence's to get a little genetic diversity.
As a younger man, maybe 24, I went to Belmont Park for the running of the Wood Memorial and I listened to the papers about how Damascus was the horse of the Year,etc. I mae a large bet for me at the time and thought sure damascus would win that day.
There were rumors from the morning the Damascus was not sound and would be hurting if he ran that day. Well Damascus lost to Mr. Right (named for Frank Sinatra a right kind of guy). Baeza the jockey did not press Damascus in the stretch and he made no bones about it. The horse was lame: Baeza said so and he was afraid to push Damascus. The Track vet did not scratch Damascus for that would force the track to return a half million dollars, bet on Damascus, to the public and that was money they would rather keep. They fool the public and keep their money.
It was Sept 68 now that I think of it. Never made a big bet again. Still feel like a sucker about that 68 Woodward where in the 67 Woodward Damascus beat Dr Fager and Buckpasser, what a difference a year makes huh?
More races from across the pond......Hurricane and Nightime
by Jibberish
Nightime the beautiful chestnut daughter of Galileo. Delighted her owners Dermot Weld and his mother Marguerite, by crushing her competetion by six lengths in the Boylesports Irish 1000 Guineas. Jockey Pat Smullen sent the filly into the lead over a furlong and a half out, she responded to his urgings by drawing clear for a scintillating victory over 50-1 longshot Ardbae Lady.
Weld was in high spirits after taking first place, with the home-bred winner carrying the colours of his mother, who led Nightime into the winners circle. "It is a very special day for me-I thought that when Grey Swallow won the Derby that was the best day's racing of my life but this certainly equals it." said Weld.
"My mother has alway's believed in the filly. I wanted to sell her as a yearling but she wouldn't let me as she thought she was special, and she has proven right. She is in her 90th year and this is lovely for her."
"We also have the Dam, (Nightimes dam Caumshinaun) and my mother only has six mares, but she has a pretty good strike rate with those six.". Nightime is entered in the Coronation Stakes, but she is still a little immature so the connections will likley wait for the Irish Oaks as her next start.
THE GREATEST SHOW ON TURF
Hurricane Run last years Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner, and 2005's Horse of the World got the year off on a good note by blowing away his two competitors in the Tattersalls Gold Cup at the Curragh.
Jockey Keiren Fallon made his move three furlongs out of the gate, and powered away up the straight to beat the outstanding filly Alexander Goldrun by seven lengths, and 12 lengths back to Lord Admiral who finished 3rd.
Hurricane Run was all business never headed in the 10 furlong contest. Although Hurricane Run took a stride or two to pick up when Fallon asked, (Curragh's track was still rated as Heavy today, makes this victory more impressive) Andre Fabre Hurricane Run's trainer had this to say "I was delighted with that, his first race of the year. He got upset beforehand but that was because he was by himself which was unusual." "He can make the running if he wants(means that the front running that he did on Sunday is not his usual style which is a late powerful closer)but I was not upset to see him in front.".
Fallon was full of surprise for his mount, who feels he has progressed over the winter. He said "it's a long year and it's going to be a tough one for him and it was important for him to enjoy his first race." Fallon also said "He's one of the best movers I have ever ridden.".
"He was a baby last year but he has grown up alot. He used to look around when he got to the front and threw away the French Derby doing that but he's all together now."(That's scary because he was incredible last year, now he's "all together" this year, baring injury he might end up being the best horse Europe has seen in a long time.)
Fabre also revealed Hurricane Run had cut his tounge and lost a shoe during the race. "He will now go for the Grande Prix de Saint-Cloud and then the King George and the Arc is obviously the plan later in the year."
I see the vile cursing going on in the past here and it is about which horse was best. I have never had a favorite horse in many years of betting racess. Most of my cronies would say "That do not put money in your pocket"
If you've never had a favourite racehorse in 40 years of betting then maybe you should change your name to " John The Clueless".
Even professional punters recognise champion horses for what they are...GREAT, and it's because of the winning strike rate of great horses that big wagering punters love them so much, even if the odds are very slim.
If after 40 years you don't have a favourite racehorse, then I doubt very much whether you've ever had a bet on a horse in your life.
No having been around the hardest gamblers in the game I can safely state they do not care about greatest ever thinking.
I have seen Insurance Companies reports on surveys made since 1971 when OTB made inroads into racing and the survey asked why do you play horses and 95 percentile said to win money and they were asked about favorite horse and less than 5 percent even had one.
I get where your coming from John The Gambler. A large percentage of people that are into horse racing are in it for the money, gambling is not about which horse will win?. It's about picking a horse that if it wins will make you a hefty sum of money thats why if you know anything about gambling you stay away from the favorite because it won't pay out alot of money, but I guess a little money is better then being in the. I'm not claiming I know everything about gambling on horses becuase I don't.
Jibberish,
You've got things around the wrong way, professional punters chase the short priced favourites. The way they see it, the shorter the price the better the horse's chance, at least according to the market framers. Big punters wait till they find a horse that's been placed to advantage in a race that it should not lose, and then bet accordingly.
To the professional punter, $10,000 on an even money chance is safer than $1000 0n a 10/1 chance to win the same amount.
John,
40 years of punting and you don't have an opinion on the best horse you've seen, do you have an opinion on anything ?
I know for a fact that Professional gamblers bet as much as $90,000 on a race but it is for SHOW on a top never that much to win. Jibberish has it right. The moderate bettor who plunks 200 or so bets to WIN on a top.
Well even the 90 grand plunger is not thinking greatest ever, he is thinking greatest today against the field he is running against today. Met Life, Mony Life, all run surveys in the New York area about horse race bettors and why they bet and 500,000 people have been interviewed and almost all bet for the money and less than 5% think hreatest ever. Hare core players keep the game afloat and none BELIEVE in Greatest ever thinking. That does NOT EXSIST.
I have only seen people finish a year ahead of the game by getting a big luck score like a Pick Six for $100,000 and without that big hit were losers for the year. Betting favorites does not win money.
Tulloch, perhaps horse race betting is done differently in Australia than it is here in America, but in America most the people who go to it are gamblers. There are horse racing fans who also go to the races, but the game of horse racing isn't a very big race. Most people in America (the average person on the street) can usually only name therace horse Secretariat, they might be able to name Seabiscuit because of the movie and that's just about it. In America the sport of Horse Racing is viewed mainly as a gambling sport and that's it. Finding an actual FAN who watches it for the fun of the sport is VERY rare here in the States.
Do not get hooked betting on any game, it is a negative sum experience and you must lose long term.
Yet $50 million a day is wagerd on horse racing legally and without that revenue racing would not exsist.
It's the same situation over here Beth, 99% of punters follow racing for the punting aspect, but we Aussie punters are passionate about our champion gallopers and most punters have a list of favourite horses as long as a kangaroo's leap.
In John's case, just because you only want to bet on racehorses, doesn't render you blind to the performances of outstanding gallopers.
John's the first punter I've ever met that doesn't know a good horse when he sees one, perhaps that's the reason he's not much good at this caper.
Makybe Diva , Casino Prince and Barbaro Merchandising
by Jibberish
Tulloch did you ever see Makybe Diva in person?. From what I hear from VirtualFormGuide(Aussie racing site) she was the best racing mare in Australian history. I also heard that there was a deal struck up to create a whole load of Makybe Diva merchandising T-shirts, hats, plush animals that sorta thing. If Barbaro is ok, the Jacksons need to capatilize on him and do the same sort of deal it would bring in alot of fans. Or even a better idea, to bring in fans, racing cards, like baseball
cards. All the little kids can collect the Barbaro maiden card, and the Barbaro Kentucky Derby card. Anyhow Tulloch do you think Casino Prince's
loss in the Golden Slipper was a fluke or him loosing his form,
because I've read he lost a shoe and was coughing after the race. Do you think he can rebound?.
How can there be so many greatest ever horses in the world.
The fact that there is no clear cut choice proves there IS NOT ONE, For if there were such a thing all would see it and agree on it clearly.
I didn't say that John The Gambler that was from a racing web site, but I do think that. She won 3 consecutive Melbourne Cups no horse in Australian racing history has ever done that not even the best horse in Australian history Phar Lap could do that. He won it once in 1930, when it was contested at 2 miles, he won by 3 lengths carrying 138 pounds unthinkable today. Man O' War is the closest your going to come to the "greatest race horse ever" and dare I say greatest horse of anybreed in history. It is unanimous with everyone in the racing business he was the greatest horse ever and all throughbreds that are labled as "great" are measured up to Man O' War, and so far only one has come close Secretariat.
Ones that I think are greater than MoW include: Secretariat, Citation, Spectacular Bid, Dr. Fager, Swaps, and Seattle Slew. I also think War Admiral is a a probable along with Affirmed and Alydar.
Afleet Alex you are entitled to your own opinion. But you haven't given a reason why you think Secretariat, Citation, Spectacluar Bid, Dr. Fager, Swaps, Seattle Slew, War Admiral, Affirmed and Alydar are all better than Man O' War. I don't know what thought process you used to come to this conclusion. Are you looking at maybe, they have more accomplishments then Man O' War. Man O' War is the yardstick that measures greatness in horse racing. He set a total of 8 records during his career, 3 world records, 2 American records, and 3 track records and broke most of them by several seconds. He carried as much as 138 pounds, conceding as much as 30 pounds to his oppenents and still beat them by large lengths. He carried 130 pounds at 2 years old. Please give me a reason why each one of the afore mentioned horses is better than Man O' War.
Re: Makybe Diva , Casino Prince and Barbaro Merchandising
by Tulloch
I never got to see Makybe Diva in the flesh, but I wish I had.
What she did will never be equalled, in 145 years only 5 horses had won the Melbourne Cup twice, none had won it three times. Makybe Diva won three in a row and set a weight carrying record for a mare when she was allocated 58 kgs ( 127.5 pounds ) in winning last years Cup.
Her feat will be talked about for decades.
Casino Prince ( well named, as his owner won him in a raffle at Crown Casino in Melbourne ) failed badly in the Slipper 14th of 16 and then ran second last of 14 a week later in the Sires Produce Stakes at Randwick. He may have neeeded a break and hopefully he'll come back better as a three year old.
I hate 2 year old racing and never bet on them, I've seen too many potential topliners burnt out early in their careers from chasing the big money races like the Magic Millions and the Golden Slipper. Casino Prince may be another to add to the list
I don't think Man o War is Paula B. Paula was too vicious she was personal with people. MOWLOVER never was he never called people jack ass or dumb ass he was just hard headed! I glad she's gone and if she comes back she'll just keep getting kicked off
I have been reading the posts here and Paula sucks in her approach to people. I do not care which horse is best ever as a bettor I want to make money and there is no magical formula to predict which horse is best. If there were such a thing everybody would do it and every race would pay out at a $2.10
mutuel which would break the tracks and racing would go out of business. Cardinal rule of racing or any gambling game is IF Knowlegde and Skill can beat the game the game would go out of business. I have quietly read the posts and I suspect Paula is a heavy loser in betting on horses. That is how they get.
I am an older guy too starting bets on races in 1967 and I have learned nothing in about 40 years of racing for you never know the outcome of the next race.
Sec. had a longer and slimer blaze and the star thing was much smaller, Man O Wars stoped in the middel of his face and his star thing was much wider
Man O War: 16.2 1/2( or something like that)
his b-day was march 29th
Secretarit: 16.2 hands
his b-day was teh either 30th or 31th of march.
um they may have been arouund the same hight but looked much diffrent. Man o war looked longer and leaner with Sec. morse qauter horse like.
and SEc. was a red color with Man O WAr being cooper chestnut(from waht i read). because of Mows long kinda out of porpotion legs Riddle said if he did make a good racers he would be a good hunter horse becasue of his long legs. were sEcretairt had much more portoined(sp?) legs
I know there where a bit differant! I didn't say they where exactly the same!!!
Both had a star and stipe (happy!?)
Both where born a day apart. Man O' War was almost born on the 30th like Secre.
Both where a firey chestnut, hence nick name Big Red
Both where big
So, I know the facial marking where differant, but it si odd both had a star and a stripe
ok i am not sure if i asked this before but I heard that Mow still had some record out there but then i heard he didn`t so i was wondering if did have records stil out there?
i think either th belmot or lawrence realization but if man o war kept the record for the belmont untell they changded the distance(from 1 3/8 to 11/2) doesn`t he still have a record.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Horse Racing Fan
They all had great qualities about them. Secretariat could run all day, fast, slow, and on grass. Citation could sprint, go a mile and a half. Man O War had a big heart and was a smart horse could do anything against any horse! Seattle Slew: Amazing Sire, Amazing Runner, can't say enough about any of these horses no one is the best! They all had faults and all had glory!
Most Versitaile: Secretariat
Best Speed: Seattle Slew
Biggest Heart: Man O War, Secretariat
Best Sprinter: Citation
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Horse Racing Fan
Hi everyone,
I'm new to your board, but I thought I'd chime in on this one. Since this is a MOW board, it's not surprising that most if not all of you think MOW was the greatest of the 4 horses mentioned. Be that as it may, if those 4 met in a race, I doubt MOW would win it. Based on their running styles, MOW and Seattle Slew would more than likely burn each other up, running eye-to-eye on the front end. That would set things up perfectly for either Citation or Secretariat (or both) to come from off the too fast pace, and blow by both Slew and MOW in the stretch. Don't know whether Citation or Secretariat would win, but I suspect Slew and MOW would be left running for 3rd and 4th place. In almost any race where there are two or more dominant speed horses, the expectation is that race will probably be won by a horse that comes from off the pace, unless all of the horses that come from off the pace are badly outclassed. Or at least that is my opinion.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Horse Racing Fanatic
Oops, I see there is already a "Horse Racing Fan" posting on this board. The above post was mine, and I'll be using this "Horse Racing Fanatic" moniker from now on. I'm not really a true "Fanatic", but that should differentiate me from "Horse Racing Fan" in the future. And I hope no one else here is using the "Horse Racing Fanatic" name.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Alex
I think if Native Dancer was included in this "dream race" as well, he may well be the one to come off the pace and take all four of them. The Dancer had the perfect style to win this race.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Horse Race Fanatic
Yes, Native Dancer had the running style to be a definite threat in a race like that. The only question would be whether or not he could really run fast enough to pull it off in that company. And the answer is, we don't know.
Dancer was not a "break the clocks" type of horse, and he often ran just fast enough to win. He came from off the pace, and seemed to (almost) always have enough speed to run down whoever was in front of him down the stretch, often right at the wire. But I don't think he ever ran against another "great" horse, and against the closing kicks of Citation and Secretariat, I think we have no way of knowing whether or not he was really "that" fast. Can't knock his record, though.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Alex
I still say "the bid", with his versitle style could give any horse a run for the money, especially if you look at his four year old season. As dominant that year, 1980, as any racehorse in history.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Horse Race Fanatic
Yeah, I thought about Spectacular Bid as I was writing about Native Dancer. "Bid" would belong in the race, especially the "Bid" of 1980 - his 4-year old season. I always thought that "Bid" got a raw deal, being judged so harshly for not being able to beat 4-year old Affirmed when he was a 3-year old. But "Bid" was a much better horse at 4 than he was at 3. Too bad Affirmed retired after his 4-year old campaign, because I always thought that a 4-year old "Bid" would have been able to beat a 5-year old Affirmed. But it didn't happen that way, so we'll never know.
Hey, there are lots of other horses that would have a good case for being in the race, too. I structured my comments around how I thought a race would set up between the four horses originally named.
Affirmed beat him. LOL Affirmed was Horse of The Year in 1979. Bid was harshly judged because Delp bragged too much. Woula coulda shoulda is a losers consolation clause. Affireemed was the better of the two
Yes, 4-year old Affirmed beat 3-year old Spectacular Bid, and became 1979 Horse of the Year. So I'll never argue that 4-year old Affirmed was not a better race hores that 3-year old "Bid". But that's comparing Affirmed in his best racing season to "Bid" in his second-best racing season, hardly a fair measue of their relative ability. "Bid" as a 4-year old was physically more mature than he was as a 3-year old, which made him stronger and better at 4 than he was at 3. And I think it's almost silly to argue otherwise - his results proved it. As a 4-year old, "Bid" ran faster and more successfully than he did as a 3-year old, and he also ran faster and more successfully than Affirmed did as a 4-year old. And since a 3-year old horse usually matures/improves much more when he becomes a 4-year old than a 4-year old does when he becomes a 5-year old, I think that the 4-year old "Bid" would have outrun either the 4-year old or the 5-year old Affirmed. "Bid"'s 4-year old racing season was his best racing season, the one on which his ability as a race horse should ultimately be based, and it was one for the ages.
Affirmed broke Bids will to run period. Coping out how a 4 yr old can beat a 3 is sour grapes! Other horses for the Ages like Damascus beat the 4 yr old Buckpasser. Why did Bid not beat 4 year olds at 3 if he were so great? There is less than one length difference between a 4 yr old and 3 yr old in October.
"Affirmed broke Bids will to run period". Really? Spectacular Bid rebounded off of his defeat and went on to a 4-year old season where he was undefeated, set a world record for 1 1/4 miles on the dirt that still stands today - 26 years later, and was named 1980 Horse of the Year. That doesn't sound broken to me.
You ask "Why did Bid not beat 4 year olds at 3 if he were so great"? Well, as good as "Bid" was at 3, he was still maturing, and was not as good as he would be at 4. Bid was plenty good enough to deal with most 4-year olds when he was 3, but Affirmed wasn't just "most 4-year olds" - Affirmed was a great horse having the best season of his career. And with the advantage of being a 4-year old champion running against a 3-year old champion, Affirmed at 4 was too much for "Bid" at 3.
But "Bid" continued maturing over the winter of 1979-1980 - he got better - and at the close of his 4-year old season in 1980 he was both better than he was as a 3-year old and better than Affirmed had been as a 4-year old, based on their respective records for those seasons, and on his world record. As a 4-year old, "Bid" was 9-9-0-0, unbeaten in 9 races, while as a 3-year old "Bid" was 12-10-1-1. Affirmed as a 4-year old was 9-7-1-1, with no world records. You may not realize it, but even in their best seasons, it is exceptional for a thoroughbred racer to be undefeated, as "Bid" was. Few horses have ever accomplished that, and of the ones that did, none of them were named Affirmed.
As to there being "less than one length difference between a 4 yr old and 3 yr old in October", I just don't believe that. Although there are occasionally exceptions, the older horse will more often than not beat the younger horse in championship-level 3-year old vs. 4-year old confrontations in the fall. That falls in the category of "conventional wisdom", and it did not get to be "conventional wisdom" purely by accident. That's what horsemen expect to happen, because other things being equal, it does happen most of the time. So I hardly agree that my pointing it out in this instance is nothing more than "sour grapes".
Affirmed was better without the age difference. In Oct 3yr and 4yr are equal in sprints and less than one length apart in routes. Tommy Trottter gave Affirmed a nine pound burden where weight for age would be 5. Ace NY State handicapper saw Affirmed better by more that the age gap.
Bid`s will to run that day was broken Affirmed was too fast for him.
Three yr olds beat 4 year olds 75% of the time. Look it up in a handicapping book
Look, whatever Tommy Trotter thought about the two horses in the fall of the 1979 campaign has no relevance to how good "Bid" became as a 4-year old, which was his best season. And if you are going to compare horses, best-season-to-best-season is the only fair way to do it. So that means the fair comparison is Affirmed as a 4-year old vs. "Bid" as a 4-year old, not Affirmed as a 4-year old vs. "Bid" as a 3-year old. And the numbers are irrefutable - "Bid"'s 4-year old season was better than Affirmed's 4-year old season. The fact that Affirmed at his peak beat a Spectacular Bid who had not yet reached his peak has little to do with who the better horse was.
You seem to be arguing against the idea that horses usually improve as racers as they mature. And almost any horseman would tell you that 3-year old thoroughbreds are not as physically mature as 4-year old thoroughbreds. So, what is so radical about the idea that the 3-year old "Bid" was not quite as good as Affirmed's best, but that with another season of maturity and improvement, 4-year old "Bid" became a bit better than 4-year old Affirmed had been?
And about your 75% figure, that may be true across all classes of thoroughbred racers, but it is not true at the championship level, which is the one being discussed in an Affirmed vs. "Bid" discussion.
Gentlement, could y'all just please agree to disagree and end this debate?? Just from the history of this board, we all know that this type of debate can go on for a few months at the least, or a year or so depending on who chooses to get into it. And I don't want this board to become a board of debates. I hate being pushed to having to block some people from coming on this board, or delete messages, overall editing this board, just to keep the peace of the board. I hate having to do that. I would like to think y'all are grown enough to be able to control your tempers and your words. So please just end this debate before it gets too out of hand, please.
I thought both Bid Man and I were discussing this in an adult manner, with neither of us really being "over the top" in what we were saying or the way in which we were saying it. But if you want it to end now, consider it ended.
It's just that with your choice of words, that your discucssion has turned into a debate (or it just seems to be one). If it's not a debate then feel free to continue it. It's just I've seen debates on this board get ugly too fast, hence the reason why I'm a bit quick in trying to end them. I didn't mean to seem controling, my appologies if I came across that way.
Yes, we were pretty much getting to debating Affirmed vs. "Bid". But I'm new here, and I don't want to start out by getting on the bad side of the site owner, so it's probably best if this budding "debate" goes no further. I promise you that absolutely none of my posts here are going to "get ugly", or at least that nothing I personally post will be ugly or insulting. I don't think I was ugly or insulting in this thread (hope you agree), and if I ever am, feel free to slap me up alongside the head and remind me that I'm doing something I said I wouldn't do. I like this website, and I want to remain welcome to post here.
The trick about this board (and perhaps it's down side) is, since we can't hear your tone of voice then the only thing we have to go on (meaning for your personality at the moment) is your choice of words. If you look at some of the past pages on this board you'll see the Man O'War vs. Secretariat debates get heated to down right ugly because we can't tell if the person is coping an attitude or just chose the wrong words at the moment.
Welcome to the board Horse Race Fanatic. I do hope you enjoy your time on here.
I think these two have carried on this debate in a very gentlemanly fashion, so I don't think you have to disourage these type of discussions. I actually enjoy reading the opinions of others even if they are different than mine.
If it bothers you I can respect that as well, but debates like this one are one of the things that keeps me coming back to this board!
Please keep it going!
THANKS.
Actually I'm curious about this discussion as well, this is the first time since this board was ever made that a "debate" (and I use that term loosly) was ever done in such a gentlemanly fashion as you put it (and I have to agree with you on that). I actually hope and pray that anyone thinking of starting a debate on this board will check this chat line out and read it, perhaps learn something from it.
Re: Man O' War vs. Secretariat vs. Citation vs. Seattle Slew
by Alex
Lets call it like it is- the "bid"s 4 year old season is probably better than ANY horse has had in the past 50 years or so. Does anyone really think Affirmed was better as a 4yr old than "Bid"? I think not! Why is it that on this board, the BID is put down for one race more than any other horse? Affirmed lost a couple of races early in his 4 year old season, what happened to his will there? And that goes for Secretariat against Prove Out and Onion, and Slew whem he went out west. Yes Affired was great against "Bid" that day, but it took a great run by him to beat Bid by 3/4 of a length. And if they met at 1 1/4 like was originally scheduled, the result might have been different. Bid never lost at that distance. We all have our opinions, but I just think Bid doesnt always get the credit he deserves.
Key point is head to head competiton is best test not average years. And 3 yr olds beat 4 yeard olds 75% of the time even in Grade 1 races.
No debate please. The showdown race was won by Affirmed because he was better not because he was older, and the bets paid off on Affirmed too.
At 6 furlongs a 3 yr old in Oct is as fast as a 4. There is no edge to the 4 yr old. Bid could not run 6 fl with Affirmed and that should have been even not Bid losing by 2 early on. And 5 pounds he got erased the older Affirmed`s advantage in age.
Affirmed was better.
The winner of the showdown race is the Champion not ho had the better year.
A CARDINAL SIN for an all time great to have his will to run broken by another top horse and lose. I DO NOT KNOW WHO THE BEST HORSE EVER IS BUT IT CAN NOT BE BID. He would have beaten Affirmed if Bid were best ever.
