Hello. This is Big Red's Stable, a board that can be used for both as a chat board and a guestbook. Use it either way but I'd appreciate it if you would leave a message here so people can get together and talk about horses, horseracing, or whatever. Thank-you :-)
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Rivalary's, Owners, The old days and the Curse Of Seattle Slew
by Jibberish version 2.0
This year in the triple crown series we might be treated to a fine rivalary similar to Sunday Silence and Easy Goer. Lawyer Ron and Brother Derek could they be the next great rivalary in racing?. First off I absolutley Despise there names the owners are rich you think they could pay someone to come up with a good name. But of course if such a rivalary were to spark up in the midst of the Triple Crown Series and lets say each horse has won one race and there headed into the Belmont or perhaps Lawyer Ron is on the verge of becoming a triple crown champ or Brother Derek is on the verge of becoming a triple crown winner we all know what will happen both owners will have a stud deal ready and then once the Belmont is over maybe all of sudden Lawyer Ron will have an injury but, rather than heal the injury and return too racing he'll be retired "for his best intrest" to stud (aka.so the owner can make 5 times the money he would have ever made had he keept Lawyer Ron racing) these owners disgust me. Over the years horse racing has become a business venture.Just another source of income for them instead of in the old days when they did it for the enjoyment of owning a race horse and the ultimate goal of owning a winning horse. Why is it that in any form of sports the hayday of the sport is always far behind Football,Baseball,Hockey,Horse Racing. After Seattle Slew won the Triple Crown things have never been the same sure you have the ocassional good horse Genuine Risk, Sunday Silence,Easy Goer,A.p. Indy,Real Quiet,Silver Charm,Smarty Jones and one great horse Cigar. One outstanding in the last 30 some odd years since Seattle Slew I like to refer to that as the curse of Seattle Slew
Re: Rivalary's, Owners, The old days and the Curse Of Seattle Slew
by Jibberish version 2.0
The reason I call it the Curse Of Seattle Slew is because Seattle Slew is the only Triple Crown Champion to beat another. not that that damaged Affirmed in any way but, ever since then there have been many that came so close and lossed very close. Like Real Quiet was maybe an inch inch and half away. From becoming the 13th Triple Crown Champion. Also I've been trying to figure out this little Enigma Giacomo last years Kentucky Derby winner has started 12 races HE'S ONLY WON 2 RACES one obviously being the Derby the other a maiden allowance. So far he hasn't been able to win another race and yet he has a stud deal?. It's becoming that the actual races themselves have no meaning except in the breeding shed the fact that a farm is willing to pay money to have a horse like Giacomo who's Derby win was obviously a fluke come to there farm and become a stallion after his up until now less than stellar career makes me physicaly ill. Basicaly the Kentucky Derby is just another race there's no special rules and to a horse it really doesn't seem that different from any other race the reason it is a big race is because humans put a special value to it as the big race of the season for 3 year olds and so the owner of Giacomo gets a know dought lucrative stud deal because of a fluke in the Kentucky Derby buggles the mind doesn't it.
Re: Rivalary's, Owners, The old days and the Curse Of Seattle Slew
by Anonymous
I Ronny is named after his owner's lawyer. I'm not high on his name either but he's a great horse! I've always liked the elegant names. most recently afleet alex!
ok i read on amazon that they have a new man o war book call man o war: legand like ligthing(or somewere close to there) anyway it comes out may 2nd if anyone interest
any way my questiopn was does anyone one of any good race horse movies or books(mainly movies)
If you're looking for a movie to just introduce the person to horse racing, then to me "The Black Stallion" is one of the best for introducing the sport to someone. It doesn't get into all the gargon that we use on the board that we don't think of as confusing, but someone who doesn't follow the sport may not understand.
For an old classic I'd suggest National Velvet, it too is a good movie to introduce the sport to someone who knows nothing about it.
If you are a Man O' War fan and know the horse racing lingo, I'd reccomend the Seabiscuit movie that came out. The two equine stars of the show, Seabiscuit and War Admiral, are both related to the legendary Man O' War. Seabiscuit being his "grand-son" and War Admiral being his son.
was at the game at white hart lane yesterday (spurs fan) and heard a song by the united fans which had the same tune to the one liverpool fans sing about winning the european cup 5 times... "in istanbul we won it 5 times etc".. was just wondering what the song was and what the words were?
Okay so this has been erking me for quite some time that fact that Barbaro is ahead of Lawyer Ron in most Polls for the Derby. Barbaro a turf gone dirt horse has no reason to be ahead of the more impressive Lawyer Ron. He has only been on the dirt twice barely winning both times I just don't understand why the handicappers can rate this "turf" horse higher than a horse who has accomplished more then the other. I think barbaro is another Bellamy Road to green to run with the more veteran horses, Ronny, Derek. They both came (are coming) into the Derby with 5 starts. I don't think he's good enough but that is my opinion!
First Samurai is off the Derby Trail..Doesn't suprise me Brother's is to smart to have a horse run he knows can't win run its to far for him which is sad! I don't think Bluegrass Cat will go either but I'm not sure!
I actually considered Ruffian but, Genuine Risk and Dance Smartly I put on there because they raced against colts and won and lets face it the way to measure a truly special filly is to race her against the boys and if they win not just once but, a few times thats a special filly the only time Ruffian raced against a colt she didn't finish. I could have put in Winning Colors but, compared to Genuine Risk and Dance Smartly I chose not to put her in not because I don't think she's a great horse I left off some horses I liked War Admiral, Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Affirmed, Alydar I would have loved to include them but, I think there would just be too many horses racing at once it would look like last years Kentucky Derby it was like a Civil War cavalry charge instead of a horse race they should lower the amount of entrants in the Derby never have 20 horses racing at once it's a mess.
yea i remember one of the men saying it was more of a wild herd of horses stampeding not a horse race
it is also danguorse for horse to race against than many to big of a chance of collition
Regret beat the boys and she was never beaten by a filly or mare ever.
The British who invented the modern thoroughbred di not consider a filly beating males as a sign of greatness. England andFracnce for 200 years did NOT have a seperate division for filles and mares. Females had to run against males since 1764!!!!!
Females have more than held their own against males in England for 200 years.
In America cheap female maiden claimers beat male maiden claimers every day of the year. No BIG DEAL for a female to beat males. That is not a criterion of greatness.
Regret averaged 1;11 to 1;13 on a fast track at Saratoga in 1914.
That was before Bill Meyers resurfaced it in 1918. Giving Regret
the benefit of the slower surface about 8 to 10 lengths slower
Regret comes to 1:09 3/5 about 5 lengths slower than Ruffian.
Regret did not set 9 Stakes Records in 9 tries either.
Regret was definitely a lot slower than Ruffian.
Regret is the only horse other than Ruffian to equal a track record in her first start.
But Regret did it August 31 1914 at saratoga.
Ruffian did it in May 1974. A two year old is three lenths slower in May than in August.
Ruffian was a lot faster than ANY TWO YR OLD when you consider
all races as a two year old.
And Ruffian`s 1:08 3 5 was 6 lengths faster than Secretariats 6 fl time in his Belmont Run. Sec ran 1:09 4 /5 in Belmont as a THREE YR OLD on a fast spiked track. he was all out with Sham.
Ruffian as a baby 2 yr old on a slower track was 6 lengths faster than Secretariat in his best race. At the 6 fl call.
Ruffian was a better 6 furlong horse than Secretariat.
Secretariat never ran faster 6 furlongs than 1:09 3/5 in his whole career.
I'm not talking about English thoroughbred horse racing in the 18th century obviously due to selective breeding and the lack of genetic diversity nowadays it's unfair to compare filly's today to filly's in the 18th century. Here's an exmaple take Fashion who represented the north in a number of match races against southern horses she raced for 8 years thats almost unheard of today for a mare to race that long ontop of that thoroughbreds during that era usually raced 2,3, 4 miles. And her chief rival was Boston who represented the south who was also an amazing racer. Now compare Fashion with Ruffian who unquestionably dominated her competion who were all female. When she raced Foolish Pleasure a colt mind you I think she would have won had what happend didn't happen lets say she did win her career and fame would have took off too unkown heights because she would have beaten her counterpart in the male divison. Another more recent example would be Sweetcatomine last year if she would have won the Santa Anita Derby and gone onto the Kentucky derby that would have catapulted her into stardom it remains to be seen if she would have won the Kentucky Derby it still would have been debated about how good she would be (she still a good filly but could she have beaten Afleet Alex, Roman Ruler?). Also I really don't go by what time a horse finishes a race or the fractions set in a race and which horse ran 6 furlongs faster the won thing most important is what horse is over the finish line first and that in my mind is what the great ones care about to cross the finish line ahead of everyone else.
but America i think is still a lil slow on that.(but that is what i think)
The reason it is good that a filly could beat a colt is that it is a scientific fact that mares and filly have less speed and less stamina then males, but there are lucky few (life Ruffian, Regret and even Fashion(i think))
I listned to the dream derby, it was an exciting call, but it also got me to thinking about an Ultimate horse race piting the best horses of the past century against each other it would take place at Monmouth Park going a mile and a half on July 4th about 78 degrees Sunny post time is 6:00 pm so here are the entrants in there post positions
1.Genuine Risk
2.Ribot
3.Dance Smartly
4.Man o' War
5.Citation
6.Deep Impact
7.Phar Lap
8.Seattle Slew
9.Nijinsky
10.Sea-Bird
11.Secretariat
12.Nearco
In my opinon probably there would be a photo finish
for first with Man o' war,Phar Lap,Sea-Bird,and Secretariat with Sea-Bird winning by a "Whisker".Man o'war 2nd,tie for 3rd between Secretariat and Phar lap, Ribot 4th, Citation 5th, Genuine Risk 6th, Deep Impact 7th, Seattle Slew 8th, Nijinsky 9th, Nearco 10th, Dance Smartly 11th. What do you think about the order of finish?. Or are there some other horses you think should be included?. Or some that shouldn't be in there?.
Lets make it a race for two year olds in August at Saratoga at 6 fl where many of racings greats of the past have run as two yr olds. See which TWO YEAR old in history is the fastest six furlong horse. LOL
NO CONTEST!!!
This horse would have kicked ass against all the horses in your DREAM DERBY IF THE MET AT AGE TWO AND RAN 6 FURLONGS AGAINST IT.
The Immortal Ruffian Ruffian Ruffian as the crowd chanted her name that day in Aug. 1974 A great pre race show of love for a Living Legend. Her 1:08 3/5 for six furlongs is the best 6 fl time still for a Two at Saratoga.
I am not knocking the Great Man O War who indeed I think is the best horse in history. He could sustain his world class speed in
the most severere circumstances. But two yeard olds are still un developed. And MOW would have to improve 10 to 12 legnths to beat Ruffian. He might well do that as the "herd instinct" prevails in great horses. If MOW saw Ruffian in his face the whole 6 furlongs he may well dig down and get 10 lenghts more that he ever did as a two. No mathematical scale can quantify "herd instinct" improvement.
Saratoga track was resurfaced in 1918 and so much so that 19 track records fell in one month. Three world records too were set there in 1918. So MOW ran on a fast track at Saratoga.
NYRA resurfaced Saratoga again in 1956 and made it a bit faster.
So Ruffian was running on a faster Spa track but only about 5 points faster. That was erased by rain that day. Ruffians time was set over a sealed slow track.
i am not say Ruffian was not a great horse i was just saying that i thought mow would win(but ruffain would give a fight probally)
but I mean one race can`t determain which horse is better because there are to many factors that most be looked at anfd everything but
The point of the Ultimate horse race is not about how ever wins this one race is the greatest thoroughbred of all time it's like an all star game there's something about these horses they all have a very high competitive spirit and puting those horses in a hypothetical race who in your opinion would win. I should have put Seabiscuit in there Seabiscuit at age 4 in his prime.
Where did you get the idea that I thought Man O' War would beat Ruffian nowhere did I say. When I watch a race and one of my favorite horses is in it lets say it's the Dubai World Cup I really wanted Kane Hekili to win but, I look at a race like what is the most likley to happen I base that on passed
performances and
conditions of that day and how the horses looks in the post parade I then make my predictions thats why I choose Choctaw Nation to win because he raced in the Dubai World Cup the year before and finished 3rd I had never seen Electrocutionist race before so I didn't think he was going to win I was dissapointed win Kane Hekili didn't win. When I look at a race I do hope that my favorite is going to win but, I also have a sence of logic that just because my favorite horse is running means he's going to destroy the competition in every race. thats why in my highly hypothetical Ultimate Horse Race Sea-Bird wins in a photo finnish by less than a nose even though I like Man O' War but, Sea-Bird had an amazing ability to turn on his speed in the final furlong unbelivable speed like where the hell did that come from. I would say 7 times out of 10 Man O' War could beat that field of champions. As far as If Man O' War had a match race against Ruffian 5 times out of ten the reason I think it's split is because both of them hated to lose so they both would go all out to win. What a race that would be! Ruffian might be considered the female version of Man O' War.
are u talkin to me about childish faith that man o war would win.
i never said i knew for a fact he would win i said that in my personal opionio that he would win.
On May 5 (the day before the Kentucky Derby) I'm holding an online chat session at Man O' War's chat room at http://www.network54.com/Chat/67210 from 7:00PM EST to 10:00pm EST. My hope is for everyone to be able to chat online and talk about what we think of the Kentucky Derby contenders and/or Man O' War himself.
I do hope everyone is capable of being able to come to the chat room, to get to it you can either follow the link http://www.network54.com/Chat/67210 or click on the Chat! link on the chat board. Once you get to the chat site if you have a Network 54 account you can log in there, but if you don't have a Network 54 account, no problem, there's a spot for non-members, "guests" who can log in from there.
The invitation to everyone else is still open. I'll be in the Chat Room on May 5 incase a few of y'all want to talk about the Kentucky Derby person to person.
Strap in kids that's right Jibberish is back! after about a two month haiatus Jibberish version 2.0 is making his debut first I would like to take the time to congradulate the connections of Sinister Minister and Sinister Minister on an amazing victory in the Blue Grass Stakes. There was NO EXCUSES for those other horses in that race Sinister Minister shot to the front early and took the lead no other horse had the talent or even heart to catch him he was fast even surprising Bob Baffert.Who knew Sinister Minister could be so fast with a pedigree like his with A.p. Indy his Grand-dad you would think he would be a stalker but, I guess that just goes to show you PEDIGREE ISN'T EVERYTHING. There's no question Sinister Minister was the class of that race in fact the only class in that race and coming into the race he was viewed as some what inexperienced he showed his brilliance today IT WAS A CLEAN RACE NO BUMPING OR INTERFERENCE AT ALL . For such an inexperienced young horse with a lot of speed it was a rousing victory. Just for reference here is the official order of finish. 1.Sinister Minister
2.Storm Treasure
3.Strong Contender
4.Bluegrass Cat
5.FIRST SAMURAI too bad... LOL!
yea i didn`t see it but hope kentuckyderby.com gets the vidoe
i thought at first that FIRST SAMURAI was gonna be the favorite but know i don`t really know if he will even place in the derby but u never know.
Sinister Minister did great thought(from what i read)
Did anyone see Sinister Minister take the Blue Grass Stakes?? It looked like he had control of it the moment the gates opened! It was a race just to see who could finish in place and show.
Lawyer Ron in the Arkansas Derby was kinda a mix. I mean, it was in the lead but it seemed, at leaset to me, like he was threatened throughout the entire race by the other horses. I get the feeling that he won more by luck than talent.
If some of y'all weren't able to see the races then here's articles from USA Today about each of them
Lawyer Ron is amazing! I think he is my Derby Favorite! He didn't win off luck. This horse can run anywhere on the track on the lead, midpack, on the pace and he still wins! The other horses couldn't beat him, I for sure thought that Steppenwolfer had him at the end but he let it out another knotch! Brother Derek watch out!
What happened in the Bluegrass? Wow Sinister Minister beat a fine field today! Where were First Samurai and Bluegrass cat about 17 lengths behind him. He's a speedy horse and he won on a speed bias track good for him!
(*I read somewhere that the better you do in the Bluegrass the worse it does for you in the Derby is that true?)
Not looking good for First Samurai or Bluegrass Cat at the beginning of the year they looked great! I think they'd both be great in the Preakness! Brother's won't run Samurai in the Derby, he's only run 4 horses before. Before the race brother's said samurai better run off the screen! Ya in the other direction! This is disapointing to me I love FS! He's sire's side is all distance but I guess that's not enough!
Lawyer Ron to win the Derby! He will be a better Smarty Jones, and Afleet Alex!!!
Sinister Minister got an easy lead. Any horse can run 15 lenghts faster when that happens. The other jockeys thought Sinister Minister would come back to them. Sinister Minister was ridden out at the end for his jockey feared some one would catch him.
Lawyer Ron has the best human interest story as his owner died and was buried a day before one of Lawyer Ron`s races.
Lawyer Ron is undefeated on dirt now 6 for 6 and the horse wanted to challange for the lead so the jockey let him run.
Lawyer Ron was powerful in his display of speed and endurance. He can cope with other horses in his face.
He will be hard to beat in Ky. Derby but you never know.
Sinister Minister will cave in against Lawyer Ron for he won`t get an easy lead against Lawyer Ron.
NEW ORLEANS, LA. (April 14, 2006) --
Fair Grounds Race Course has applied to the Louisiana State Racing Commission to host an 81-day meet in 2006-2007 at its facility on Gentilly Boulevard, President and General Manager Randy Soth announced today.
If approved, the meet would be the first live racing to be conducted at Fair Grounds since Hurricane Katrina caused extensive damage to the facility and the city of New Orleans last August 29. The application, which was filed Thursday, is expected to be considered by the LSRC at its April 24 meeting in New Orleans.
The proposed schedule for Fair Grounds’ 135th season of racing begins, as is tradition, on Thanksgiving Day, Nov. 23, 2006, and concludes March 25, 2007. Racing would be conducted each Thursday through Sunday, with Mondays added in January and February. No designation of major events and stakes races, including the Louisiana Derby, has been made on the application. Fair Grounds officials anticipate a formal announcement regarding the 2006-2007 racing season following the LSRC’s formal approval of the track’s race dates application.
After Katrina ravaged the central Gulf Coast, Fair Grounds was forced to relocate its 2005-2006 meet to Harrah’s Louisiana Downs in Bossier City, La. Because of the extraordinary circumstances, state regulators approved an abbreviated 37-day meet, which was conducted from Nov. 19 through Jan. 22.
Repairs have been ongoing at Fair Grounds since the fall. The roof of the grandstand and clubhouse was completed March 31 and power was restored to the building last week. Backstretch maintenance, including repair and replacement of roofs, doors and stalls, is expected to be completed in time for the start of the 2006-2007 meet.
The first event scheduled to be held at Fair Grounds since Katrina is the annual New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival, which begins April 28.
With restoration of the facility under way, the next challenge for Fair Grounds is the same of virtually every business in the New Orleans area – securing the services of several hundred employees to work at the live meet.
Fair Grounds Race Course, the nation’s third-oldest Thoroughbred racing facility, has been in operation since 1872. Located in New Orleans, Fair Grounds is owned by Churchill Downs Incorporated (NASDAQ: CHDN) and also operates off-track betting parlors in southeast Louisiana. Information about Fair Grounds can be found on the Internet at www.fairgroundsracecourse.com.
For those of you who may not know this, USA Today has created a Dream Derby, some of the best race horses America has seen over this past century put in a race against each other, there are names in this race such as Genuine Risk, Spectacular Bid, War Admiral, Seattle Slew, Citation, and our great Man O'War just to name a few horses in the race, there are 10 horses in the Dream Derby. Tom Durkin, well known for his race calling in the New York races like the Belmont, calls the race from start to finish. I won't divulge how it ends, but if anyone is interested in listening to it here's the website, and enjoy!
I'm really excited too see how this one comes out! I've heard about 3 different outcomes so whe will see what happens..
My Pick
1. First Samurai-Appear's to be peaking? Haskins calls him a immensly talented colt ready to show his stuff.
2. Little Cliff-Zito's one horse will run big I have a feeling won't be enough to win but he'll run his best race.
3.Bluegrass Cat-Making Excuses for this horse, not enough speed to win on this Speed Bias Track. I'm looking for him to do well in Derby it matches his running style.
Arkansas Derby
1.Steppenwolfer-Fast Closing and Consistent I think he has enough late speed to catch Laywer Ron. He needs to show he belongs!
2.Laywer Ron-Will be hard to beat. Training like a beast not sure if he keep peaking.
3.Private Vow-Looking for a better finish he will need to at least place to go forward.
Is that really man o' war!? I thought there where only 2 color pictures of him,the head shot of him and Will, and the one of him a few days before he died ??
During a modeling session for sculptor Herbert Hastletine (shown at left, with clay model), being held by Will Harbut. Neat photo. :> Where did you find it?
There are several known MoW photos in color -- they just aren't seen often. National Geographic ran one with a Kentucky article back in 1943 (if memory serves -- it was during World War II). Another, of Red & Will, from the L.S. Sutcliffe collection, appears in the April 2006 EQUUS magazine. So, including those you mention, we're up to five. :> Would bet that more were taken, during the 1940s, but only the best tend to be published.
To Brother Derek's Credit, he ran to "good" today! thoses other's didn't have a chance he was just toying with him! It will be intersting to see how he does in the Derby since he usually controls the speed in his other races, they are predicting another suicidle race early on in the derby..it will be intersting and I'm SUPER EXCITED!! :)
This crop has turned out to be really good this year
Brother Derek ran great this week! I hope it's the same for my other two favorite next weekend! Laywer Ron and First Samurai!
I agree, right now it looks like anyone's race. They are at least 3 or 4 practical horses that could win, but you might as well throw that out considering what happened last year..with Giacomo
4 Horses that Should Win Derby if the get the perfect trip
1. Laywer Ron
2. First Samurai
3. Brother Derek
4. Barbaro??????
Ok define the words as you wish. It still goes to early speed.
How ever you define it what`s the difference. A horse able to keep up with the leaders and have enough left to win is what most races are about. Horses at the FCP that are 1 2 or 3 HAVE ABOUT THE SAME CHANCE OF WINNING.
Ok, Afleet, thanks fpr clearing that up. I don't want to start any arguments either, just stating my opinions. I am also a huge fan of Afleet Alex as well!
Just a heads up, in case any of y'all are interested and haven't seen it.... There's an article about Man o' War winning the Withers Stakes ("Man o' War's Magic Mile") in the April issue of EQUUS, which is on sale now. I can't evaluate the article, because I wrote it (adapted from the book, "Man o' War: A Legend Like Lightning," which will be in most bookstores by May 2). Can say without hesitation, though, the photographs illustrating the article are beautiful! Includes a rare color shot of Red with Will Harbut (not the Saturday Evening Post one, for those of you who own a copy of that magazine), and I love the handsome MoW with Kummer up on the article's title page. If anyone does read this article, always interested to hear what you think. Researching Man o' War has been a special joy.
So glad you enjoyed it. :> Any thumbs up from a Man o' War fan means a lot!
Many of the photos came from Keeneland Library, which has a wonderful Man o' War photo collection. The color pic of Red with Will Harbut comes from the L.S. Sutcliffe Collection, which is held by private collector Ken Grayson of Lexington, Kentucky (his very favorite horse is Man o' War). I met him while working at the National Museum of Racing, and he very kindly made several photos available for the book. This color photo doesn't appear in the book because all those illustrations are in black and white, but I'm very happy that EQUUS was able to use it in full color.
I too am a big MOW fan and have grown up with an older group of
people who had seen MOW race. Your work brings back many wonderful memories for me about MOW.
You story of MOW matches the feed back I have gotten from eye witness accounts of MOW`s career.
MOW on May 29, 1920 in his second start off the layoff ran the Withers Mile in a 140 Beyer. This is still the fastest mile in history when it is adjusted for track speed differential. MOW`s Beyer for that race has been calculated using the Equibase Data Base and sophisticated algorithms known to be accurate!!!
140 is the best beyer Figure any horse has ever attained!
To get a comparison check todays horses.
Barbaro whose Beyers are 105 to 107.
Smarty Jones 118 tops Preakness.
Affirmed (His top) 128 when he beat Spectular Bid!
Bob And John todays Wood Memorial winner 117.
Equibase Co. is the sole maker of Results Charts and Past Performance lines. It was too expensive for The Daily Racing Form to continue making results charts.
Equibase bought the entire data base held by the Racing Form
which goes back to 1893!!
Equibase has a world wide data base for horses and can make Beyers for any horse in the world
And horses are bought on the International Market based upon Equibase Speed figures made for the horses.
MOW 1920 Withers Stakes is the best figure obtained by using the algorithms created by Equibase Co.
MOW`s pace graph (in competition) for the Withers is the best in that era. 1900 to 1925
Only Roamer in his run against the clock (Aug 21, 1918 at Saratoga) had a better closing pace graph than MOW`s Withers.
With no horses in his face Roamer could control the pace and set a very fast time!
Roamer`s time 134:4/5 was a world record for a mile(facing the clock only)
Sun Briar set the world record in competition 1:36 1/5 at the same Saratoga meet in 1918. A horse is at least 7 lenghts slower when a another horse contests the pace with him.
How wonderful, hearing first-hand descriptions of Man o' War racing, from people you grew up with! :> I would've loved that so much.
And boy, is it good to hear that my research fits with what you heard. Have tried very hard to find the most reliable information and show a living, breathing, Man o' War. Thank you, thank you!
Very interesting about the estimated Beyer for MoW's Withers. I always wonder how well a speed figure system from our modern era translates going back into other eras (since the figure maker can't time travel and be there in person to observe any quirks at the track), but am sure that Red would earn tremendous Beyers if he could pop up and run nowadays.
Achilles of Troy out of Derby
By David Grening
Daily Racing Form
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2398300
Achilles of Troy, whose dominant wins in the Count Fleet and Whirlaway Stakes over Aqueduct's inner track, vaulted him to prominence in the 3-year-old division, has been taken off the Triple Crown trail because of an injury, his connections said Wednesday.
Ernie Paragallo, the authorized agent for his family-owned Paraneck Stable, said that Achilles of Troy has "heat in his left front suspensory, and his ass-end is a little sore."
Paragallo said Achilles of Troy would leave the barn at the end of the week for a facility where he would be able to swim for 30 days. He wouldn't resume training until summer.
"He's sound. You couldn't tell anything was wrong with him, he was just a little ouchy in behind and had a little heat," Paragallo said. "The vet said we could inject him and go on, but I'd rather run the horse in Saratoga."
Achilles of Troy finished fifth as the favorite in the Gotham and was vanned off following the race. A problem in his right foreleg was diagnosed, but the final evaluation was that Achilles of Troy was suffering from muscle spasms in his back.
Achilles of Troy had been pointing to the Arkansas Derby next week at Oaklawn Park.
Article: Brother Derek Attracts Five Rivals for Santa Anita Derby
by
Brother Derek Attracts Five Rivals for Santa Anita Derby
Apr 5, 5:00 PM (ET)
By BETH HARRIS
ARCADIA, Calif. (AP) - Brother Derek was installed as the 3-5 morning-line favorite for Saturday's $750,000 Santa Anita Derby, where only five other 3-year-old colts will challenge him.
Brother Derek was assigned the No. 2 post at Wednesday's draw. He has won five of seven career starts, including three in a row.
"You always hope to get a horse that just keeps improving. Each week, each race, he's done that," trainer Dan Hendricks said.
A victory in the 1 1-8-mile West Coast prep would solidify Brother Derek's status as the favorite for the May 6 Kentucky Derby.
"The overall plan has always been to get there," Hendricks said. "Luckily, we've been improving and he's doing well. Once we get through Saturday and everything goes well, we'll start planning on from there."
A.P. Warrior, winner of the San Felipe Stakes three weeks ago, drew the No. 1 post and is second choice at 7-2. He's trained by John Shirreffs, who saddled Giacomo to an upset victory in last year's Kentucky Derby.
Point Determined was made the 4-1 third choice and will break from the far outside. Trainer Bob Baffert is seeking a record fifth Santa Anita Derby victory.
Point Determined's sire is Point Given, the 2001 Santa Anita Derby winner who won the Preakness and Belmont that year after finishing fifth to Monarchos in the Kentucky Derby.
Heavy rain hit Santa Anita for the second straight day Wednesday. The extended forecast calls for clear skies starting Thursday.
"Track condition is going to play a major part," Baffert said. "Some horses are going to love it, some aren't."
The race also will go a long way toward deciding who stays on or falls off the Triple Crown trail.
"Brother Derek is definitely the best horse I've seen this year," Baffert said. "We're going to find out if we belong. We're hoping to run 1-2-3, be close to him. That will be the telltale sign if we belong in the Kentucky Derby."
Brother Derek's five-furlong workout in 1:00.20 on Sunday was still being buzzed about three days later.
"It was very amazing," said jockey Alex Solis, who was aboard. "Every week that goes by, he keeps amazing me more and more."
Sacred Light, second to Brother Derek in the Santa Catalina Stakes a month ago, will start in the No. 5 post at early odds of 9-2.
"Although Brother Derek will be the lone speed, at some point you always get pressure in a race," said Aaron Gryder, Sacred Light's jockey. "Whether we catch him or not, it's about this horse moving forward, it's about him learning a little bit more, and I think he's going to do that."
The two long shots are 30-1 Indy Wildcat (No. 4 post) and 50-1 Wildfang (No. 3 post).
Re: Article: Brother Derek Attracts Five Rivals for Santa Anita Derby
by go point!
I'm pulling for Point Determined for the upset! He's dad did win it! And he only lost last time out by a half a length! It's time they put Derek in his place!
Re: Article: Brother Derek Attracts Five Rivals for Santa Anita Derby
by Anonymous
Umm Private Vow and Barbaro aren't in the Santa Anita Handicap which is what we were talking about! I'd like to see Brother Derek loose, I think another Californian Colt needs to take the spotlight. A.P Warrior and Point Determined need to step up big time in these races!
I want
1.Point Determined: Win won for the Lewis's and his sire won too!
2. A.P Warrior-Should be on the board somewhere!
3.Sacred Light was beaten only 1 3/4 lengths by Brother Derek in the Santa Catalina Stakes. Think he has the class to show up!
I think!
1. A.P Warrior
2. Brother Derek!-If he doesn't win he'll have a nice runner up effort probably!
3.Sacred Light
I've been reading a book on him and he obviously was a very impressive horse only losing one race in a 22 race start.
I was wondering why he isn't getting credit for his accomplishments he won the Preakness and Belmont and only lost once like MOW. He even ran one more race then him and all his races where amazing, even his defeated in the derby where he was fouled twice and barely lost to Dark Star.
Why isn't the grey ghost given enough reconition! He's as good as MOW and Sec..
Not Exactly..
Many people considered Native Dancer to be the greatest horse in American racing history, rivaling even the superiority of the legendary Man o' War, later pointing out that even Secretariat didn't match the enormous length of Man o' War's stride, but Native Dancer had equaled the twenty-eight foot span. Said Joe Hall:..
This horse broke his maiden by 4/1/2 lengths and then four days later he went out and won the Youthful Stakes by six.
The "Master" Eddie Acaro said this of him "He's everything they've said about him. Sheer power is the only way to describe him."
HE WON
At 2
Maiden @ Jamaica
Youthful Stakes @
Flash Stakes
Saratoga Special
The Grand Union Hotel Stakes-Carrying 126 Pounds!
Hopeful Stakes
Futurity-Dancer came back in a powerful stretch drive, catching Tahitian King to win by two and a half lengths in the world record time of 1:14 2/5 for the six and a half furlongs.
Anticipation Purse
East View Stakes
At 3 WON
Gotham Mile
Wood Memorial
Withers Stakes
Preakness Stakes
Belmont Stakes
Dwyer Stakes
American Derby
Travers Stakes
Arlington Classic
Placed 2 in the Kentucky Derby
At 4 WON
Commando Purse
Metropolitan Mile
I think I missing one but I prove my point he was amazing!
I'm pretty sure his world record was a 2yr old world record. I said he was amazing, just not as much as Secretariat, and yes SWAPS has to be one of the most or the most world record holder in horse racing history, go look him up. :)
Here is the list of the 2006 Kentucky Derby Contenders, but you can also find them at http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2006/derby_coverage/derby_entrants/ and get move information on them, the jockeys, trainers, etc. that makes up the team.
Achilles of Troy
A.P. Warrior
Barbaro
Bluegrass Cat
Bob and John
Brother Derek
Cause to Believe
Deputy Glitters
First Samurai
Keyed Entry
Lawyer Ron
Point Determined
Private Vow
Sweetnorthernsaint
With a City
1. Cause to Believe
2. Lawyer Ron
3. Brother Derek
4. Point Determined
5. Bob and John
6. First Samurai
7. Bluegrass Cat
8. Deputy Glitters
9. Barbaro
10. A.P. Warrior
Hello everyone and HAPPY MAN O'WAR DAY! My appologies for taking so long tonight to with everyone Man o'War day but I've been working on updating some files on my computer and its taking up most my band width, but I couldn't pass up a moment to wish everyone on my board Happy Man O'War day and to thank all of you for coming here.
Checked in late but while it was still THE day, to see if anyone was celebrating. Makes me smile to picture that big, strong, newborn colt, and amazed to think it was 89 years ago. Cheers! :>
I really hope that theses questions are answered before or at the Derby, these horses are great but, here are somethings I think theses horses need to accomplish
My Top Twelve (No Order)
1. Laywer Ron- As of now I have seen nothing that can beat this horse (on dirt that is) He has been exceptionally well this year and right know he looks the horse to beat in the Derby. Needs to prove something in Arkansas Derby.
2. First Samurai-Needs a big win in the Bluegrass, he needs to show us he can go the distance. Been "runner-up" twice (disqualification to first)this year.
3.Brother Derek- Been running non-stop since September, hasn't had a break, and running against pud horses, maidens, and turf horses. Not to sure bout him.
4.Bluegrass Cat- Should have won the Grade III Tampa Bay Down's race, no excuse, not been to impressive in his races this year. Should be intresting if he runs against Samurai in the Bluegrass Stakes.
5.A.P Warrior- This horse has been sitting back in the shadows, but raced big for Shirreff's against game Bob and John. I'll keep my eye on him he's got a great pedigree that says 10 furlongs!
6.Keyed Entry- Still think he's meant to be in the sprinter division but ran a good race to a big long shot, has some distance abilities possible.
7.Sweetnorthernsaint- Liked his last few races, raced third in stakes debut, needs a great "graded" prep race to make me a believer.
8. Achille's of Troy- Vanned off after Rebel, problems with his back. Not sure if he should run or not but has looked decent. Gotham was a throwout race he started awkardly and was vanned off. Injured list???
9. Bob and John-Not a bad race in the San Felipe,, easily defeated by A.P Warrior, not shown up for big races, chocker??
10. Barbaro- This was tough..I'm not a big fan of this horse, I believe he's overrated, and won't even place in the Derby, he only has 1 race this year, and is running against Flashy Bull who is my eleventh choice. To much hype for a horse who hasn't even run on a fast track yet, this one belongs on the turf!
11. Flashy Bull, 12. Strong Contender
I'd love to hear about your opinions, just don't start an argument with me theses, are my opinions so don't be upset by my opinions.
1. Cause to Believe - Good horse, can run anywhere on the track, very consistent, fast times
2. Lawyer Ron - Nice Rebel win, showed he could rate, still like him better when he is in front
3. Brother Derek - Good consitent horse although beats up on and claimers, would like to know if he can rate
4. Point Determined - If he gets the right race he should do well, keeps improving, lots of potenital
5. Bob and John - I've always liked him, he is a good horse, nice effort in wide San Felipe
6. A.P. Warrior - Good in San Felipe but outcome IMO would have been different if picks 4 and 5 would have had the same kind of race
7. First Samurai - Want to see how he does in a fair race which hopefully happens in the Bluegrass
8. Steppenwolfer - Improving, always tries, could be a big threat
9.Bluegrass Cat - I think Bluegrass was a fluke, he lost a shoe, still only got beat by 1 1/4 lengths
10. Keyed Entry - Game second in Gotham, was experimenting, see how he does next time
11. Henny Hughes - Yes awkward choice but he was my fav 2 yr old last year and just can't seem to let him go, hopefully does well Saturday in Florida Derby
12. Discreet Cat - Nice win in UAE Derby but he beat nothing, time was fast due to track bring any good U.S. horse there and he'll do the same, shippers usually don't do well on the First Saturday in May
*Strong Contender has to win next race to get to Derby, his last chance, he is my 13 spot.*
Did anyone watch the Dubai World Cup Races?? They were all amazing, and I was shocked to see so many people there with no gambling in the whole country.
Dubai World Cup Website http://www.dubaiworldcup.com/
Favorite Electrocutionist Starts From the Rail in Dubai World Cup
Mar 24, 12:26 PM (ET)
http://sports.iwon.com/news/03242006/v9051.html
By JIM KRANE
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - Electrocutionist is the favorite for Saturday's $6 million Dubai World Cup, even with an unfavorable post position.
A two-time Group 1 stakes winner in Europe, Electrocutionist will leave from the inside No. 1 post when he takes on 10 rivals in the world's richest horse race at Nad Al Sheba in this beachfront sheikdom.
In the first 10 World Cups, not one horse starting from the rail has finished in the top three.
"It will take a special horse to win from there," said Simon Crisford, Godolphin Racing's manager. "It was always going to be difficult. Now it will be much more difficult."
The World Cup is the showcase event on a seven-race card with $21.25 million in prize money.
While Electrocutionist, owned by Dubai's royal family, has been installed as an 11-10 favorite by British bookmaker William Hill, top horses from around the world are set for the nearly 1 1/4-mile race.
U.S.-based horses have won five World Cups, including the last two. Five horses from the U.S. are in Saturday's field, led by Brass Hat, winner of three in a row including a 4}-length victory in the Donn Handicap.
"I think he's going to get a chance to show the world how good he is," said Brass Hat jockey Willie Martinez.
The other U.S.-based horses running for the first prize of $3.6 million are Magna Graduate, Choctaw Nation, Super Frolic and Wilko.
Another top challenger is Kane Hekili from Japan, a winner in eight of 12 career starts including the 2005 Japan Cup Dirt.
"He's a tough dirt horse," said Matt Howard, spokesman for the Dubai Racing Club. "The Japanese media are just going mad about him."
Magna Graduate, fourth in the Donn Handicap run over a sloppy track, will leave from the No. 8 post and be ridden by John Velazquez, trainer Todd Pletcher's regular rider. The 4-year-old Magna Graduate won his last three starts of 2005, including the Clark Handicap.
"He's a tough horse, he's been training very well here," Howard said.
A record 19 U.S.-based horses are entered on the day; nine horses are here from Japan.
-In the $5 million Dubai Duty Free, Pletcher's Host and trainer Richard Mandella's The Tin Man lead the U.S. contingent, with Fields of Omagh trying to give Australia a second win in a row. Elvstroem won last year.
- Ouija Board, a 5-year-old mare and 2004 Eclipse Award winner, leads a 14-horse field for the $5 million Dubai Sheema Classic.
- Proud Tower Too and Thor's Echo challenge favorite Heart Alone in the $2 million Dubai Golden Shaheen, a six-furlong sprint. Heart Alone is from Brazil, but is based in Dubai and trained by Ismail Mohammed.
- The $2 million UAE Derby features Discreet Cat, owned by Godolphin Racing, and Simpatico Bribon, bred in Chile but Saudi owned and trained.
- The $1 million Godolphin Mile features Kentucky-bred Jack Sullivan, who won the Al Maktoum Challenge two years in a row. The colt finished fourth in last year's World Cup.
