SUGGESTIONS. I'm building a scratch built car, that has pop ups. Question is, as they have VERY low/gentle sloping gaurds, I wanted to use ??? type of helogens. The Hella 90mm seem to be the best for the job, but, being a builder of houses, not cars, what do some of you suggest.
Dave
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This message has been edited by herman_sho on Jan 13, 2004 10:10 PM
Thanks for the reply, BUT, like I said, I'm a builder of houses, and the automotive (electrical at least) is still a dark art to me. When you say that the 90mm units are the best, what type, as the shear number of different types is a little intimidating. I don't envision using the HID units (cost/avalibility) so, are you refering to the units as seen at Susquahanna site?
Dave
Just a little more info to be going on with. I'll be useing an as yet unknown bucket for the pop ups, as this truly is a scratch built car in this area, so have a little bit of freedom with what I choose . My friends car is finished and he has the older rectangular headlight set up and I want to moderise the set up on mine(its a replicar of the DeTomaso Pantera, but to the 1996 body shape), and, need to keep the amount of lift to a minimum.
Dave
This message has been edited by Davethebuilder on Jan 7, 2004 4:42 AM
Here is an example of a pop up appliation with Hella 90mm. I think its an older RX-7?
As you can see he was lacking horisontal space, so units were mounted diagionally instead of beside each other. According to regulations, this is actually illigal, they have to be horisontally beside each other. High beam modules have to be on the inside.
Anyways.. parts list would be as follows:
2 x 68137 H9 Hella 90mm low beam lamp
2 x 68136 H9 Hella 90mm high beam lamp
4 x H9 Connectors
2 x Spare H9 Osram 65W bulb (Doesn't exist in any OE application yet, so order this at the same time)
As for wiring harness, sticking to 12 gauge and using underhood mounted headlight relays is a good idea, but not a requirement.
Thanks Herman, thats the sort of info I was after.
It may be that I can source the lights here in NZ, but as they are still relatively new, their procurement is not at all certain.
Being a total new comer to this side of the auto building, (lights in particular at this stage), what should I be concidering at the 'best' form of lighting for good driveability, regarding Helogen v. HID v. BiZenon.
Additionally, just what difference in performance would be expected fron the older rectangular helogen to the 90mm set up I want to use????
Bear with me, as I know these questions will have been answered somewhere already, but trying to find all the answers is a bit daunting and sometimes the answers just too damnd involved for a poor boy like me.
I'm having some difficulty with accessing some links, they come up with 'Tripod I error' message. ??? whats that about?
Still can't figure out how to post pic's, - can't even follow the instructions - maybe thats a bad thing for a builder.
also, have you been through hermans site (the FAQ)? it has SOOOOOO much information for you. it should put a great deal of light on the situation. he's put a lot of effort into it.
This message has been edited by slackyaw on Jan 7, 2004 8:31 PM
If you live in NZ, then you drive on the left side of the road (right-hand drive car). If you get Hella 90mm units, they are most likely be for left-hand drive cars, just like in US/Canada. Unless you can ask Susquehanna to get you proper units, you will have to modify your projector shields to have a flare on a left side. I am not sure it the shield can be flipped around a vertical axis to achieve that. May be Herman can fill that in. He played with 90mm units extensively.
Thanks for that. I had it in the back of my mind that this might be the case. Hope that it is just a matter of flipping over the shield.
Just for interest, why can't another one be made. Never having seen one, I am unaware of the 'problems' this might involve, but considering what I've worked on so far, I can't see it as a major task.
??? Am I right in that assumption?
The country u live in make a difference to what lighting products u want to use. I think we all have assumed so far that you want to drive this car on public road as well, and not just track car. For track and show use, its a lot simpler since you do not have oncoming traffic. Then u could just have mounted 4 high beam Hella 90mm of any kind and u would be good to go!
Shields on the H9 Hella 90mm cannot directly be flipped, mounting points are assymetrical. Even if you did that, beam would not be optimal. Explained simply, beam is preformed by reflector and will receive final shape at cutoff shield.
I'd keep it simple and use the H7 Hella 90mm, which is turnable between RHD and LHD. To make it up to par with the H9 bulb, you could order some H7 65W Osram bulbs - follow this link: http://suvlights.tripod.com/suvlightscom/html/halogen-h7.htm (I have them myself in my high beams).
They are just a little brighter than the original Philips 55W (which is +30%), but does not create the heat of a 80W Philips rally bulb. The black portion of Hella 90mm is ABS plastic and should be considered meltable.
This is all REALLY good info, wished other areas of the cars construction was this well informed.
The car is ONLY going to be used on the road, and this new info about the light units is MOST helpful.
I still feel like a real dope, but are you saying that the H9 v. H7 units are physically different set up, not the same unit with different bulbs????
If then different, are the H7 units still sealed like the other H9 units?
Just how involved is the 'swapping' over the lamps, suitable to driving on the left hand side of the road?
Can the shields be made (if necessary), if local Vehicle Authorities requirements.
How do you know if the units you get, are suited for which side of the road usage??
If I were able to get them locally, is there some way of telling if they are suited to the local roads.?
I always tought that the lights on the drivers side had a different pattern to that of the passengers side, creating the light pattern. SO, if I follow correctly(and theres NO certainty of that) are the units that you buy, identical to each other ie the two sides, high/low beams respective to each other?
Like I've said, thanks for the help, I feel much happier being guided along this aspect of the project.
I wonder how I'm going to go with the wiring?????
Employ a sparkie I think!!!
H9 units are redesigned H7 units, so they do not have the identical internals, even thou they look identical from the outside.
The red rear end of H7 units are turnable 15 degrees in relation to black front shell. That is the switch between RHD and LHD. Its as simple as moving 3 screws into a different premade hole, turning rear end, and screw screws back in!
If you get H7 or H9 units in NZ, then you should be able to confirm with the retailer that the units you are receiving are suited for your country's roads. However, there might be a chance that retailer carries them for track, racing, off-road ,and they may be made for left-hand drive cars. Depends on retailer I guess. If you get them from over here (US/Canada) then follow what Herman is telling you.
Again, thanks.
It sounds like that is within my capability.
Shame that the same is not the case with the H9 units.
Just one more question. Are these units a truly sealed product? Even though they will be in an enclosed 'bucket', its always good to know that the unit itself is taking care of the moisture problem.
Can't seem to find the correct 'button' to post a pic, otherwise I'd post a pic of the car. (actually my friends car that we have already done the body change to) Any ideas?
actually it'd be easy to convert the H9's to fit left hand driving... all you have to do is flip the shield around. there are two guide tabs that help to make sure you don't flip them but those can be cut. the screw points look symetrical. (my 90mm that i cut/beat/tore up is at friends house so i can't confirm this yet) i'll try and get pics.
it'll be z pattern but with flare to the left.
considering the H9 costs around $55, you might consider just purchasing one to see/fiddle with. H7's are a bit priceier so not really sure how much you have to spend.
and yes, both are totally sealed units.
This message has been edited by slackyaw on Jan 9, 2004 6:37 AM This message has been edited by slackyaw on Jan 9, 2004 3:47 AM
Thanks for that.
It would be nice to go with the H9 units, but, as I don't know what either of them are actually like, that is probably a stupid comment on my part. Would be good to confirm the exact details on the shield.
Herman made the comment however that the H9 unit's reflector is not symetrical, so therefore not possible to swap left to right.
That said, what ARE the differences between the two?
Was the H7 unit an 'older' style/version.
If so, what make the H9 units, better if indeed they are (and cheaper - seems strange that they are cheaper IF they are indeed a more recently produced product)
Still can't find how to post pics here. The info in the "how to post pics' doesn't seem the relate to to anything that I have on my screen.
The H7 is ECE only, for member countries that subscribe to those lighting regulations. The adjustable shield is for ECE countries that drive on either side of the road; Germany & France drive on the RH side of the road, while England & Australia drive on the LH side. Someone in France may want to drive thru the Chunnel and visit England; once there, the headlight pattern would have to be quickly changed for driving on the LH side of the road, to avoid blinding oncoming drivers.
The H9 light is more of a light for the North American market, where everyone drives on the RH side of the road, and the H9 light has a fixed non-adjustable shield, which of course costs less to make, and sells for less.
Good info.
Just the sort of info that is nessecary for my head to get round and follow.
Looks like the H7 units will be the ones to go with, and as Herman suggested, use the slightly higher output Osram 65w H7 bulbs.
Is Osram the only manufacturer that makes these bulbs, or just the ones suggested (maybe for quality/price)Doesn't Hella themselves make such a beast, for their own lights?
Dave, the less puzzled, builder.
Thanks evreyone for your help so far, its been well appreciated.
Hella doesn't actually manufacture their headlight bulbs. The Hella headlight bulbs are usually Osram packaged in a Hella box. Of course, Hella has backup suppliers, so the bulb in the box may not even be an Osram.
There are many manufacturers of H7 bulbs. H7 is a pretty common base. Theoretically, you could choose any brand, its just that the majority is plain 55W and then there is a crap load of Asian low quality bulbs in all sorts of marketing hype configurations like
1) 55W=130W etc... (definatly not true)
2) plain 70W, 80W and 100W (They create too much heat and only slightly more light than original).
In general, its a risk for you headlamp assembly to use non brand name bulbs. Brand name bulbs are Philips, Osram, Sylvania, Narva.
Ordering the 90mm H7 units soon, through Susquehanna.
Locally, you can't get these units. Well you can, as a 24v unit, which they use for bus & truck installation. They're literally twice the price, so the choice is obvious.
Herman, you posted a link, relating to the Osram 65w bulbs, what company is this, as my link goes nowhere once it has initially loaded. Will try to find local outlet, but doesn't look all that easy.
meant to ask also, is anyone aware of orange coloured LED's, suitable to being used as indicator (turning signals)
I am going to try and put them inside (to the side of the mirror) on my exterior rear vision mirrors.
They can't be bulky - and will need to be as narrow as possible.
If u know anyone in germany, netherlands, belgium, that would be the cheapest place to send a local person out to shop Hella parts for you. I was lucky enough to get those units for 43 Euros each + shipping (two years ago) from Germany, which is like half price compared to susquhanna. Have u considered ordering 3 units (nice to have a spare)?.
Suvlights is a small businiess located outside LA in California. Jen is generally a good guy to deal with. Many of us have ordered from him.
The link to suvlights.com and the Osram bulb works from my pc (maybe there is some magic in it??), maybe send him an email: sales@suvlights.com
Bugger, just wiped out my response and couple more questions. Wished someone would ask me to design a computer.
Any way, thanks for the info, yet again.
No, sadly I don't know of anyone in that neck of the woods, at those prices, it would be really nice.
The 90mmH7 units, while avalible here as a 24v model, cost $320NZD each or $220USD. A bit much for what they are.
Did you mean getting a third set of lamps or bulbs?
At the price of the lamps, I'll wait to see if I damage one first, as as for the bulbs, not a bad idea.
Not sure what the local laws are where you are, but we need to get a Warrant of Fitness check done every 6 months. A bit annoying if I got knocked back for a blown head light, having to wait for a new set. (Could always use the 55w units I surpose)
Are the bulbs in the high beam and the low beam units the same??? I would think so, but one can never be too certain, especially when working / ordering from a distance.
The next thing is going to be what driving lights to use. The air dam has a position for a set, and the origional one where a rectangular unit some 5x3 inches in size. (On my friends car, he chose that size, but chose a cheap model of Hella, which is a bit silly, concidering the cost of the car)
As my car is quite capable of reaching Mach3, I think it wise to have as much visability as possible (Mach3 = about 165mph+)
What light unit would you direct me to look at for this job?
I an not restricted to the rectangular unit, as I am able / willing to re-engineer the dam to take the most suitable unit. Still. it has to be about the same size as the 5x3 inch unit.
How the **** do you post pics on this forum. In the section that is surposed to tell you how, it says to click on 'insert object' - but there simply nothing to click on. Would love to post a pic of the car - give you an idea of what I need to do, any help on this one???
In general, the easiest way to post picture here is to upload them to webspace provided by your internet providor, and then simply paste the full URL (address) to it into the form here.
When u click on "respond to this message", and u get up a new form to fill in ur comments which should consist of these fields: your name, your email, message title,message text and then the button u need to use: "Insert Object". Button is probably created by using some sort of image with background logic. I do know that button do not show up in older versions of Netscape browser - it might be the case for other older browsers as well. (Un)fortunatly Microsoft Internet Explorer is the browser most developed for, so download version 6 of that.
Heres the pic I've been TRYING to load. Good old microsoft IE.
As you can see (Hopefully) there is a position for a driving light that is VERY low, so needs to have a units that is of reasonable power to make it useful.
Have looked at the Hella FF 50, 75, 100, 200, 300 etc etc etc
What opinion for these as a candidate for the air dam?
Dave
Just looked at my entry, no photo ????? seen this happen with others as well, so don't feel too bad. Would be nice to get it right though.
This message has been edited by Davethebuilder on Jan 13, 2004 2:57 PM This message has been edited by Davethebuilder on Jan 13, 2004 2:56 PM This message has been edited by Davethebuilder on Jan 13, 2004 2:54 PM
Pic half loaded, when I went to look at replies. Then, second time round, it didn't load at all. ??? Oh well.
Looked at these units, not a bad size.
BUT
1) I live in NZ and there doesn't seem to be a postal arrangement to here for these units (as are alot of things on ebay)
2) they are not of a well known brand and therefore not able to be replaced should I break them, (ie unlikely to get the same ones again in a years time)no certainty with Hella etc either, just more likely
3)they don't look like they are of that high a finish in quality. They may be excellent units light wise, but they need to be as good as the 'brand' named products that are avalible
Like the FF75 units - good size, not bad price, FF50 not bad either.
Will decide perhaps when I evaluate the light patterns between the contenders. (I wonder how close the comparision is to real life situation - seems like a jolly good starting point though)
OK,
IF the units are sealed, and don't need to be protected from the elements, what concideration should I be aware of, about putting a cover over the lights in the bucket set up? (The cover / enclosure is for general protection and keeping the units clean from road film / splashes.)
Will this cause a decline in the performance of the light output, and if so, what cover would minimise this? Perspex, polycarbonate??? I would assume that the surface of the cover would be in line lights glass cover / lens - thereby keeping the light restriction to a minimum.
Would this cover then cause the light unit to build up heat, it not now being cooled by exposure to the air, to the point it could shorten the life of the unit??
The more I read the other topics, the more questions are generated. Great ain't it.
First of all, how much volume do u plan to make your encloseres in? If its big enough there not an issue. If u are terrified, by using aluminum on as one of the sides will transfer more heat out compared to plastic.
I have a custom "box" myself, and it is small. Units are mounted with rear end outside box. Its in the rear end heat are mostly generated, so that took care of that... Link to my setup: http://hanker.tripod.com/headlight-level3-project.htm
Thanks for that.
I have just this moment picked up a pop up bucket set-up from a Mazda Roadster (Miata). Mechanically,looks pretty right for my set up.
The volume point, should not be too much of an issue (hopefully), plus the unit is steel / aluminium, so some heat moderation might be gained from that. Still, not certain if I will use it with the origional 'lid', but it looks reasonalble.
Will have to experiment with the front transparent cover.
Optical grade polycarbonate - mmm, yet another avenue to have to check.
How close to the poly shield, could the unit go, heat wise??
Will have to make a shaped mould for it, to give it a slight curve (very gentle curve). Hopefully not enough curvature so that it wont introduce any bad light refraction.
There is not really any heat restrictions for use of polycarb sheets. There are headlamps made entirely of polycarb, even around the bulb socket. So will take that heat.
Not sure if it is wise to heat form optical grade polycarb. Most of them has a UV block layer on outside, which does not survive needed heat blast. if you stick with a relatively low thickness (maybe less than 3mm), they are somewhat bendable cold, but obviesly u have to keep them in that shape.
Ok, I'm confused again.
Was just looking at the query by MorfinX about mounting problems with his H9 units - he meantioned about the dimension of the units with the 'ignitors' included.
What the hell are these ignitor things????
Are these only a component with xenon bulbs, if thats what he's using??
As you are probably aware by now, I'm only using halogen H7 units, and assume there is no such beastie as an ignitor with my set up.
yes dave it is a 90mm h9 unit converted to d2s hid. if you are just using h7/h9 bulbs it will not have the igniters attached, they are just for hid lights.
Phew!!
kind of thought that must be the case, but its the small things that wind up bighting you in the arse.
Still, its going to be a tight fit putting them in the Miata buckets.
THINK I've seen a photo somewhere of this. Can anyone give relavent advise in this installation??
More info = less **** ups.
I dunno how much space you have with the miata bucket, but for my 3000gt's bucket, the h9 low beam does not fit even flush even if i didn't use HID lights. I have to cut the rear of the bucket. Either that, or the lights are not going to be flush with the hoodline.
In miata switching for nonpopup lights its pretty easy. I have my hella 90mm low beam projectors converted to HID -
Unfortunatelly because of cooling fluid container location - behind the stock lights - low beam projector must be installed inside. There is not much space for outside high beam H9 bulb, not to mention the igniters.
But... to be totally satisfied in miata front bumper must be redesign ,because in stock light swap - light output is stopped by the front bumper. I think sth like this must be done:
I'm using the Miata buckets as a base, and can cut away to my hearts content.
No retrictions behind the bucket, until they hit the wheel, - and quite a bit infront.
Side measurement, mmm, a bit more sensative
They are still going to pop up, but will have to figure out how to 'stop' them at the correct new height
BUT if I did mount them statically, how much degradation of the light would you think there will be with the low angle of the lexan cover?
Hopefully, an image will appear. Tried once before, with little sucsess.
Dave, you can buy a "little black box" that will control the distance that the pop-up lights will open. If you search google for "sleepy eye conversion" you should come up with it. Its basically a limiting switch that you set at the desired height. Its a popular thing to do with the JDM crowd, especially Nissan 240sx(Silvia) guys.
Great. Just the thing I'm after. Will check that line of investigation out pronto.
Dave
One other thing, a little off topic -
is there any info, or 'how to', type of web info on the actiual fundimentals of wiring a car from scratch? What size wires to use , relays etc etc????
Would like to start trying the different 'bits' that I'm aquireing, but don't want to burn them out or anything too spectacular (like me getting zapped)
Tried to find that little box thingy, but was unable to, would still like to chase it down though, so any aditional help would be appreciated.
The only control I could find, was really only a on / off switch, that interupted the normal operation of the pop up motor. Pretty cheesy sort of thing to do to your car.
Anyway, here's a question I'm sure is going to have your eyes rolling back in your heads - WHY doesn't the beam pattern of the left hand light show up as the same as the right????
They are the same unit aren't they?? (left and right) OR
do they actually come as 'handed' pairs??
