I'm an Australian member, a medical herbalist and published writer, and I'm currently researching for a biography of Maud Grieve, author of A Modern Herbal. As everyone will know, the Herbal was edited by Hilda Leyel. I am posting this message in the hope of turning up some information about Mrs Grieve and her collaboration with Mrs Leyel, or at least some clues as to where I might look. I apologise in advance for the length of the post.

Maud Grieve was an amazing intellect and, in the context of her time, an extraordinarily strong and independent business woman. For erudition, her Herbal has no equal in English, and yet very little is known about her. It seems wrong and sad to me that she should have no monument and no biography.

The census records show she was born Sophia Emma Magdalene Law in Islington in 1858, the daughter of a ladies' outfitter. The archives I have seen contain very little personal information and it seems Grieve was always more interested in promoting her work than herself. The Herbal Review, journal of The Herb Society, Vols 3(3),1978, 5 (3)1980, and 6(2)1981 has some useful articles about Grieve and Leyel. Volume 6 contains some very interesting correspondence from a Miss Monica Dunbar of Aylesbury, who knew Maud personally. It may be that there was follow-up correspondence to these articles in the Review. Does anyone know where the back copies might be stored? Perhaps there are members of Miss Dunbar's family still around Aylesbury who might have kept the family papers. Does anyone know?

Maud Law married William Somerville Grieve of Edinburgh in India in 1885. William was connected to two other prominent Edinburgh families, the Somervilles and the Symingtons. These families were paper makers, publishers, stationers and wine merchants. One of William's cousins, Symington Grieve, was a famous ornithologist who corresponded with Charles Darwin. I intend visiting the UK early in 2006, and going to Edinburgh University where there is some archival material. It may be that there is relevant family correspondence in Edinburgh, as well. If there are Scottish members who have some information about the Somerville and Symington Grieves I would be most grateful to hear from you.

During the first world war, Maud had an assistant called Edith Grey Wheelwright at her farm (The Whins, Chalfont St Peter). Ms Wheelwright later wrote The Physick Garden; Medicinal Plants and Their History; Jonathon Cape, 1934. Perhaps someone knows something of her family, and where her papers might be kept.

Maud was connected through her mother's sister, Harriet, to the family of Aquila Aspinall of Leeds, and, through her brother, to the Catmull family of Willesden. She also had two sisters, younger than herself: Margaret Ann and Eliza Caroline. At least one of them remained single and had power of attorney over Maud's estate in 1938. Maud died in Hitchin in 1941.

If any members know the whereabouts of correspondence between Grieve and Leyel, or the minutes of Herb Society meetings from the decade 1928-38, I would be most grateful if you'd let me know. Thank you for your patience with this lengthy screed.
Joan Dugdale, MNHAA,
21 a Park Rd,
Marrickville,
NSW 2204
AUSTRALIA.
+61295607544
joan@oz2000.com

Dear Joan,
I agree that it is strange that so little is known about Maud Grieve. However there is an article by Barty Philips entitled “The Indefatigable Mrs Grieve” in The Herb Society’s journal Herbs 2002 Vol 27 No1. Barty has edited Herbs magazine for 4 years and may have some material you can look at, or help you with your research.

Past copies of the magazines of The Herb Society must be in the library at Sulgrave Manor. The Herb Society has had to move a couple of times and I don’t know whether the library has been collated and indexed. It is open to members, but at the last Conference it was stated that no one had ever asked to look at it. I would love to look at it, but it isn’t convenient to me where I live. Presumably the articles you want to see in The Herbal Review Vol. 3 (3) 5 (3) and 6 (2) should be there.

When you come to the UK we could try and sort out the material you need to look at. Please let us know when you are coming over.

Our administrator, Nicky Westwood, will not be in the office at the moment as it is the holiday period, but she would be a contact for you.

A wonderful project, Audrey

I was trying to find if the Whins still existed and found a PDF document of The British Journal of Nursing dated August 17,1918.

There was an article about the British Scientific Products Exhibition, which was due to open on September 7th. Among the exhibitors alongside Burroughs Wellcome, Allen & Hanburys, and Boots was Mrs Grieves.

“An exhibit which opens up to nurses a vista of an interesting hobby, which may also be a work of national utility, is that arranged by Mrs Grieve, F.R.S.H., who has a School of British Medicinal and Commercial Herb Growing at the Whins, Chalfont St. Peter, Bucks, which represents an organised determination to recapture from Germany and Austria the Herb Growing Industry, which those countries have won from Great Britain. Before the war we spent annually £200,000 on importations of drug-yielding Herbs which we could have grown. What more interesting for a nurse living in the country than the cultivation of medicinal herbs? It is further of interest that the demand for properly trained herb growers far exceeds supply, and good posts are obtainable for students when proficient.”


Audrey

I posted Joan's request on a Scottish Discussion Board this afternoon and one of the members has suggested she try http://genforum.genealogy.com/grieve/

I hope this is useful

Sarah

Many thanks, Audrey and Sarah, for the information and advice. I expect (fingers crossed!) to be in England in May, staying at Dorchester-on-Thames, and will certainly come to Banbury and the Herb Society Library. I hope I may meet some Members, too. Meanwhile, if any one should think of other avenues to explore, I would be most grateful if you'd let me know directly.
Best wishes,
Joan Dugdale.

Hello Joan

I am currently in my first year of studying Herbalism through the National Institute of Health Sciences, Australia. One of our assignments is to write about a person who we felt contributed to the evolution of Herbal Medicine, I chose Maud Grieve and during my search of the internet, I saw that you were going to write a book on her.
I greatly look forward to buying a copy when it comes out.

I don't know whether you have already found this little snippet, but Punch Vol.153, Oct 24 1917, had a little poem in it inspired by a letter written by a Mr. M Grieve, dated 12th October 1917. the link is. www.gutenberg.org/files/11076/11076-h/11076-h.htm

Good luck with the book.

Evie Housham
Herb Society Member # 2006111

STANZAS ON TEA SHORTAGE.
[Mr. M. GRIEVE, writing from "The Whins," Chalfont St. Peter, in The Daily Mail of the 12th inst., suggests herb-teas to meet the shortage, as being far the most healthful substitutes. "They can also," he says, "be blended and arranged to suit the gastric idiosyncrasies of the individual consumer. A few of them are agrimony, comfrey, dandelion, camomile, woodruff, marjoram, hyssop, sage, horehound, tansy, thyme, rosemary, stinging-nettle and raspberry."]

Although, when luxuries must be resigned,

Such as cigars or even breakfast bacon,

My hitherto "unconquerable mind"

Its philosophic pose has not forsaken,

By one impending sacrifice I find

My stock of fortitude severely shaken—

I mean the dismal prospect of our losing

The genial cup that cheers without bemusing.

Blest liquor! dear to literary men,

Which Georgian writers used to drink like fishes,

When cocoa had not swum into their ken

And coffee failed to satisfy all wishes;

When tea was served to monarchs of the pen,

Like JOHNSON and his coterie, in "dishes,"

And came exclusively from far Cathay—

See "China's fragrant herb" in WORDSWORTH'S lay.

Beer prompted CALVERLEY'S immortal rhymes,

Extolling it as utterly eupeptic;

But on that point, in these exacting times,

The weight of evidence supports the sceptic;

Beer is not suitable for torrid climes

Or if your tendency is cataleptic;

But tea in moderation, freshly brewed,

Was never by Sir ANDREW CLARK tabooed.

We know for certain that the GRAND OLD MAN

Drank tea at midnight with complete impunity,

At least he long outlived the Psalmist's span

And from ill-health enjoyed a fine immunity;

Besides, robust Antipodeans can

And do drink tea at every opportunity;

While only Stoics nowadays contrive

To shun the cup that gilds the hour of five.

But war is war, and when we have to face

Shortage in tea as well as bread and boots

'Tis well to teach us how we may replace

The foreign brew by native substitutes,

Extracted from a vegetable base

In various wholesome plants and herbs and fruits,

"Arranged and blended," very much like teas,

To suit our "gastric idiosyncrasies."

It is a list for future use to file,

Including woodruff, marjoram and sage,

Thyme, agrimony, hyssop, camomile

(A name writ painfully on childhood's page),

Tansy, the jaded palate to beguile,

Horehound, laryngeal troubles to assuage,

And, for a cup ere mounting to the stirrup,

The stinging-nettle's stimulating syrup.

And yet I cannot, though I gladly would,

Forget the Babylonian monarch's cry,

"It may be wholesome, but it is not good,"

When grass became his only food supply;

Such weakness ought, of course, to be withstood,

But oh, it wrings the teardrop from my eye

To think of Polly putting on the kettle

To brew my daily dose of stinging-nettle!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Evie. The letter was obviously written by Mrs Grieve. She probably just signed it M Grieve.

A cup of herb tea obviously didn't do it for the anonymous poem writer.

This site that you directed us to can be copied.

Audrey

Thanks very much, Evie, for your kind wishes and for the reference. Best wishes for your studies; I'm sure they will be rewarding. And thanks again to Audrey for reproducing the poem. I had found it on the web some time ago and relished it! The writer, I think, confuses camomile with calomel (HgCl) or mercurious chloride, formerly used as a purgative (hence "writ painfully on childhood's page") and as an antisyphylitic.
I'd like to thank Nicki, too, for her assistance to me and my husband when we visited Sulgrave Manor during our recent trip to the UK. We cluttered up her office on two occasions, and rifled the box of archival material under the eave. She was very patient with us!
I have had some encouraging messages of good will for the book from members and I'm grateful to everyone who has been interested enough to write to me. The work is slow but I hope to be back in England next year to continue sleuthing.

Thanks Joan,
I couldn't understand that bit about chamomile. Mercury is being phased out of clinical thermometers now, so it is one of the nastier parts of allopathic medicine that mercury was used in teething powders.

I found when I was working that customers asked for chamomile lotion when they meant calamine.

It is strange that Mrs Grieve spent so long in India and yet did not mention any Indian herbs. Are you going to India to find out what went on there?

Audrey

I'm so sorry not to have replied to your question about Maud and India. I didn't see it, and wonder whether it was in part a reply to another Joan.

I have had my head down and haven't been looking at the forum very often. And I've just returned from seven week in England when I visited Sulgrave and met Debs Cook who's a dynamo and very interested in the archives and the library.

Anyway, as to Indian herbs, there are a number of them in A Modern Herbal and there are also a few references to her garden in India. The index, however, is a bit patchy, as Maud herself lamented!

Best wishes,
Joan Dugdale

This is an old thread,but I recently obtained a copy of the 1935 edition of Heath&Heather's Famous Book of Herbs which contains a 2 page article by Mrs.Grieve¨The Case for Herbs¨.
I rather like the last paragraph of the article,particularly in the light of her work in the First World War.
When we purchase British Herbs,whether cultivated here or growing wild here,we are keeping British money in British pockets.We are learning to rely on our own resources;and only thus can we face the future with safety and with confidence.

Something to think about.
Kevin

Hi Kevin

Any chance of a photocopy or scan of the article, pretty please....? I think that Maud was offering very sound advice, maybe she spearheaded the 'buy british' campaign without knowing it I wonder if Joan Dugdale has the article?

I have the 1934 edition of Famous Book of Herbs with an article by W. T. Fernie 'Herbalism an Exact Science', the same article features in the only other FBOH I have dated 1927. The article is an extract from 'Herbal Simples' by doctor Fernie. Some wonderful colour images in the 1934 copy and the 1927 has a photo of the old Heather & Heather factory in St Albans.

Debs

Hi Debs,
I shall send you a photocopy of the article.
The 1935 edition of The Famous Book of Herbs contains the reprint from Dr.Fernie,pictures of the factory,colour portraits of James and Samuel Ryder and colour prints of a number of herbs reproduced from Woodville's Medical Botany.
In 1956 I purchased for sixpence the then current copy of Heath&Heather's catalogue.My very first piece of herbal literature.Since then due to work and other pressures I have not always had time to pursue my interest in herbalism,but the interest,indeed fascination,has never wavered.
Regards
Kevin

Hi Debs,

Two brief questions

Firstly Teetgen's "Profitable Herb Growing and Collecting" 1919 goes on at some length about the multiple virtues of the "....school of herbal culture at Chalfont St Peter" but never mentions Mrs Grieve by name. Why not? On whose shoes had she trodden?

Secondly, was Fernie a real person? A friend from the organisation with one of the largest medicinal herb libraries in the country suggested recently that "Fernie" was a Nom de Plume. In the absence of any hint of biographical detail about this most influential of men, I think my friend was probably right. So has anyone ever managed to uncover the real Fernie?

Anthony

Good morning Anthony

Wonderful stuff! You just gave me the chance to try out the new google forum search function for info on Dr Fernie, as I knew the subject of who he was has turned up before. Intriguing to think he could have been someone else, but I think he was a real chap, although I don't have anything substantial to back that up beyond these snippets I've found...

I have found reference to him on the english medical register, although I can't find the information now which is annoying, but the details are on the link below. I also found a reference in 'Medical Times' on google from 1853. On the page "Presentation For Degrees And Honours And The Distribution Of Prizes - 1853" under the listings for St Thomas Hospital, last column. 5 lines down under Midwifery, Fernie is listed as Resident Accoucheur (which I think is a male obstetrician?). A third reference was found under Malvern Theatres of all places, which states that Jenny Lind and Dr W T Fernie along with several others attended the laying of the foundation stone for Malvern Theatre on Saturday 6th July 1884. On the page it says "a local "water cure" doctor and chairman of the board of the Assembly Rooms and Pleasure Gardens Company". http://www.malvern-theatres.co.uk/history/

If this is all the same guy and given that Herbal Simples was published around 1895, he was registered in hampshire in 1861 (he must have been in his 20's by then, which puts him as being born around 1840 something). Meals Medicinal was published in 1905 so he had to have lived to his mid 60's if not later?

I confess to not delving any further as I've been looking into other people and areas. Although he is on my list of people to research and I'll find him as well, unless someone else gets to him before me  The thread is  http://www.network54.com/Forum/217936/thread/1202274934/last-1202363457/Who+was+Dr.Fernie-  you'll also find another couple of references to him if you search.

Now somewhere I'm certain I've come across Fernie's name in reference to Hilda Leyel, but can't for the life of me recall where, over the next few weeks I'll be looking through more of the Herb Society archive material and will post what I find, could be in one of her books though, so will have a flick through and see.

As an aside, I'm also trying to identify a photo of what I think is one of the board of directors (trustees) of the society of herbalists. I have positively identified Judge Travers Christmas Humphries, I need to look through the older records and then match names to faces. Will also get a copy sent to the Earl of Clanwilliam as well as he must have known some of the people in the photo. Amazing to see who were share holders once on the SoH, when I've got all my facts straight I'll be writing an article for everyones perusal Right better get back to work.

Debs