This year I am going to make a Roman herb garden from scratch and don't know if any members might be interested in exchanging information.

Would also like to know if anyone is aware who created the recent herb garden at Caerleon? Visited it last week and obviously not much there it being winter, but interesting beginning I thought ...
Yrs Jim

Morning Jim

Interesting project, the only example of a Roman herb garden I've seen was in early April a few years ago at Chedworth Roman Villa. Have to say I wasn't overly impressed having travelled all that way to see what I'd been told was a fine example of a Roman herb garden, although the tiled floors and artifacts were stunning. 

No idea who created the herb garden at Caerleon, maybe contacting the museum will furnish an answer? I did try and find out via the web out of curiosity but to no avail, all I got was it opened in September 2008, and a link below that mentions Abigail Kenvyn, a member of staff at the museum that helped to create the garden. Did you take any photos Jim?

www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART61081.html

Susie White, a regular contributor to our Herbs journal has a small Roman herb garden in Chesters Walled Garden  www.chesterswalledgarden.fsnet.co.uk/tour3.htm which has herbs that Roman's grew here during their occupation. May be worth taking a look if you're up that way visiting Hadrian's Wall or Chesters Fort?

Anthony may have some suggestions as he's an authority on the roman herbal scene. Best I can do is to recommend Seeds of Italy they have an online catalogue for ordering seeds of herb varieties grown by the Romans, and they are happy to answer queries about Roman herbs and plants. www.seedsofitaly.com/catalogue/10

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say and to seeing your project develop.

Debs

Hi Jim

What a fascinating project! The only Roman gardens I've seen over the past couple of years was a very bedraggled one at Birmingham Botanical Gardens and the herbs gardens in the J Paul Getty Roman Villa in Malibu last September. I have some photos of the latter, if you would like me to email them - complete with grape arbor, pomegranate tree and orange tree. It might be worth getting hold of Apicus'? Roman Cookery book to see what he uses in his recipes - if you don't have a copy already.

Best wishes

Sarah

The Newport garden is an offshoot of the National Museum of Wales created under the auspices of Andrew Dixey who I have known as a knowledgeable and enthusiastic plant historian for many years.

The basic advice for re-creating a Roman garden is to be found in Ancient Roman Gardens by Linda Farrer, for culinary herbs, talk to Sally Grainger who published a handsome new edition of Apicius a year or two ago

Are you looking to re-create a Roman garden as in Rome itself or a garden created by Romans at the further reaches of their Empire where the climate and flora were substantially different?

You may find it useful, as well as hugely enjoyable to read book 27 of Pliny. If you become enthused by Pliny, you may well find the remainder of your life taken up not just in reading the rest of his Natural History but in researching the identities of the roses he described.

Although the City of Rome collapsed fairly dramatically, and unlike Britain which the occupying forces suddenly abandoned, South West Gaul fell into a more gentle decline, its gardens and landscapes lyrically described by Decimus Magnus Ausonius (fl prior to 395 AD), an enthusiastic rosarian and indirectly connected to the herbalist Marcellus of Bordeaux

Incidentally the brief article on Romans and Lavender which appeared in Herbs was a spoof, written in response to endless books and web sites which claimed the Romans used it in their baths, food and poured it over their hair. In fact there is circumstantial evidence to suggest they hated the stuff (angustifolia, not stoechas which they didnt recognise as a lavender) and I was taken aback by the number of people who took the piece at its face value.

Finally there is the interesting question of what species were introduced by the Romans to Britain. Harvey with all the cheery political incorrectness of his generation hints that many of the so-called introductions were here all the time, but the Ancient Brits were too dumb to know what to do with them until the Romans pointed out their virtues. Of course if he said something like that these days, the Celts would call down a fatwa upon his head. Nevertheless I really do think that if the Romans had brought over all the plants they were credited with, England must have been a very bleak and bare desert before their coming.

(edited to change Guest to Anthony's name)

Quoting Anthony [Incidentally the brief article on Romans and Lavender which appeared in Herbs was a spoof, written in response to endless books and web sites which claimed the Romans used it in their baths, food and poured it over their hair. In fact there is circumstantial evidence to suggest they hated the stuff (angustifolia, not stoechas which they didnt recognise as a lavender) and I was taken aback by the number of people who took the piece at its face value. ]

If you've read the Copies Of Back Issues Of Herbs Now On Sale Online post, some of you may be interested to know that the article that Anthony referred to that caused a fuss 'Lavender For Connoisseurs' is in HERBS November 2004 Vol 29 No 4 which can be purchased as a back issue via the online shop (while stocks last). Rather a coincidence that Anthony mentioned it today as early today I came across it and read it for the first time. I wasn't a member of the Society when this article was first published, but I have heard all about the fuss the article created from Anthony. I can understand why now lol!

Debs

Sincere thanks to all for their input so far!

To Debs, that advice - which I didn't know - about a herb garden at Chesters is really invaluable. In the last week of March I'm actually staying near/walking Hadrian's Wall, so you can understand how intriguing your hint is to me. Really appreciated.

Also unknown to me was Sarah's suggestion of a Roman section at Birmingham Botanical Gdn. I live in the Marches and so will definitely be visiting there this Spring. And your suggestion about Apicius was amazingly prescient - it was whilst writing a BBC Radio Four series with Keith Floyd in the 90s called "The Cookbook Of Apicius" that I determined - if I ever had the groundspace - to build a Roman herb garden. Recently moved from London, and can now manage a space of about 30' by 10'!

To Anthony - been thinking along similar lines to yours for years. If every herb and plant expert of the last 50 years is to be believed exactly WHAT greens did Iron Age Britons have to accompany their roast venison?? If one is unquestioning, then there were apparently only a few wild cabbages and possibly some green carrots before the super-horticultural Romans arrived. It doesn't stack up.
Especially in the area of books about herbs (which seem to endlessly regurgitate the 'knowledge' of books previously published in the 20th century)I now reach for the pinch of salt when reading the words "introduced by the Romans".
In a word - lazy.

My hope is to open up a debate to less lazy attitudes to Iron Age/ Roman herbalism.
Jim

[Edited to put in Jim's name instead of Guest]

Managed to get to the Chesters herb garden a couple of weeks ago. It was only their second day of opening & so can't complain that the Roman section was still entirely barren & I basically learnt nothing!

However, the main garden was quite exquisite - national thyme collection don't you know - and lots of interesting planting, including angelica sylvestris purpurea (almost black angelica which I had never encountered before) which unfortunately they were not selling.

I am about to seriously set about my Roman herb garden with mosaics, satureia hedging (did you know the Romans didn't call it satureia?) and so on & will keep all interested informed here. Tomorrow am planting out Chrithmon, as the Greeks called it.. lots of fun in a Roman herb garden!
Jim

Hi Jim

Sorry to hear that the Roman Garden wasn't up to much when you visited, but it seems that its definitely worth a visit to Chester's Walled Garden for the other delights, did you go to the William Turner garden whilst you were in that neck of the woods perchance?

Re the purpurea angelica, I posted about a variety of dark purple almost black Angelica at the end of March last year, a company were offering a free pack of seeds Ebony Angelica seeds when there catalogue was ordered. (www.network54.com/Forum/217936/thread/1206610769/last-1206610769/April+Gardeners+World+Magazine) The offer has ended now, but you can buy the seeds from them here (www.plant-world-seeds.com/store/view_seed_item/99).

Am I right in saying that the Chrithmon that you're planting out is Jointed Glasswort aka Marsh Samphire (Salicornia herbacea)? If not can you enlighten me please? I'm had no idea what Chrithmon was, so I did a google on the word and it gave just two references one from the 'Nouveau dictionnaire d'historie naturelle' which listed Salicornia herbacea as the Latin name, ascribing it to the Greeks but also mentioning Christe Marine, my French is very limited but I think that Christe Marine is also called Sea Fennel, Samphire and Crithmum, not sure if they are the same plant or not?

What did the Romans call Savory then? I didn't know they used Savory as an edging plant I'm assuming it's Winter Savory the Roman's used or they'd be replanting the edging every year. Please do keep us informed and share some photos when you get a minute, I'm really looking forward to seeing the finished garden.

Debs

Hi Debs
I would be extremely doubtful that anyone could successfully cultivate Salicornia away from a saline estuary, but if they were to do so they would undoubtedly become quite rich given how trendy it is in gourmet restaurants. Although Crithmum is also called Samphire with the English name of both genera derived from the French San pere or Sant Pierre, the two in no way resemble one another, nor are they botanically related. If the bloke hanging off a cliff in King Lear had used his initiative and sown some Crithmum seeds in his garden, instead of risking his life dangling over a precipice he might have slept more easily at night, - perhaps he was nicking gulls eggs as a sideline which would have made it all worth while. Anyway this is the sort the Romans used, see Pliny 26 : 82 and Dalby has a reference to it being eaten in ancient Greece. I expect the Romans became no less exasperated by being told that everything that grew in Italy had been introduced by the Greeks than I do when told that every English plant has been introduced by the Romans. Curiously there seems to be no mention of Crithmum (or Crethmum) in Apicius suggesting a very limited popularity as a culinary plant compared to its merits as a medicinal. Again, although the genus Salicornia seems well distributed, the generally rocky coastline of Greece would present it with an unfavorable environment and lessen its chances of acceptance as a culinary herb, though I admit that this is not something I have researched in any detail. Baumann in his Greek Wild Flowers concedes that there are virtually no classical references to Salicornia prior to Galen but disagrees with the argument that topography is the cause

All that is quite straight forward compared with Savory, I endorse and supplement your question What did the Romans call Savory then? with if Satureia wasnt Savory, then what was it? Classical and medieval labiates are a total nightmare but when Pliny writes (26 : 55) epithymum, qui est flos e thymo satureiae simili differentia, quod hic herbaceus est, alterius thymi albus; quidam hippopheon vocant which may be as clear as mud but it at least indicates that there was a thyme knocking about which had a greeny flower similar to that of a plant named Satureia. This is generally assumed to be Satureia hortensis ie by W.H.S. Jones and Lewis and Short though I have a personal suspicion that Pliny may have been referring to Satureia thrymba, - Plinys colour ascriptions tending to the eccentric. To enhance the confusion, Lewis and Short suggest Origano either as a synonym or as a form of Satureia or cunila however Pliny (19 : 165) writing about lovage (yes really!) tells us thrymbram vero quae sit cunila haec aput nos habet vocabulum et aliud satureia dicta in condimentario genere which goes some way to bearing out my theory concerning satureias identity. We grow all these plants except Salicornia so if anyone wants to come by armed with their colour chart, Lewis and Short and magnifying glass he/she will be very welcome!

Meanwhile I have been having an interesting debate with the Newport Roman garden about the identity of the plant known to the Romans as Hyacinthus. Clearly this wasnt the plant referred to today as Roman Hyacinth (Hyacinthus orientalis). But what was it? It will be interesting to see what we end up with..

There seem to be two possible spellings - thrymba and thymbra. I'm going with the latter as it is the version (in Greek, that is) in Liddell & Scott's lexicon (oh, the books we keep from school never guessing when they'll come in handy...) BTW, Liddell & Scott straightforwardy give thymbra as being "a bitter herb, savory".

Such trivial matters exercise me at the mo as I am seeking to create my garden with the mind of an educated Roman, and am labelling many of my plants in Greek - as I fancy they might have!

As I said, am finding that Botanical Latin is often not Roman Latin, and having to make hard choices with the aid of the Perseus project which has some relevant extracts from the texts Anthony references. Just went for 'caltha' rather than 'calendula' for marigolds

Hi Jim,
You are definitely ahead of me there as is demonstrated by the fact that if I type L&S into my computer it automatically comes up with Lewis and Short, rather than Liddell & Scott. My excuse is that the medieval population relied on Latin rather than Greek texts and I am more than happy to go along with them. I suffer from the disadvantage that being ignorant of Greek, I have to rely on second hand information. As John Raven puts it in his Plants and Plant lore in Ancient Greece, (page 6) If you take my advice you will henceforth view every entry in Liddell and Scott (LSJ) under a Greek plant name with a measure of scepticism This may seem somewhat hard on Liddell & Scott but is as nothing compared to the hefty boot he places in to poor old Thistleton-Dyer.
I do agree with you entirely that the historic Marigold is our Caltha rather than Calendula, but when did it change its identity?
To add to the confusion Pliny deals with Caltha in his section on violets and Tractatus gives Flores ranen as a synonym for Calendula, suggesting that what the compiler had in mind was Caltha rather than calendula. Anyway our marigolds were more often known as sponsa solis during the Middle ages, leading to confusion with chicory and at least three other wholly unrelated plants but thats another ball game entirely
Turners introductory remarks on Marigoldes may be read to some disadvantage, if one was confused before, one would tear ones hair out after reading his text.
Good luck with your garden, I hope you will invite all of us to the opening ceremony

Anthony,
you clearly know your stuff & I think I should visit your garden this early summer before I make too many gaffes in my Roman herb garden (am a bit worried after your advice on growing Crithmon)! Are you in the Bristol area? I could combine a visit with a trip to Jekka's place (NOT!!)

To Debs - am using both summer and perennial savory as edging, also chervil and young hyssop. Am going to post a rough internet picture diary of me garden as it takes shape; at the mo have only boxed it in with sempervirens and today laid out the paths with gravel (as recommended by Pliny). Have also bought marine ply to make mosaic centre panel and stepping stones - a Roman would have concreted in but I want to keep my options open so early in the garden's creation.

Also collecting up bits of "Roman" statuary for the garden, including a cheapo piece from Morrissons. Now I would have eschewed cheapo bits and pieces except that last week Kate and I stayed at Portmeirion. Each individual building at PortM is actually quite naff, but taken as dozens together it is probably the most gorgeous architectural creation of the 20th century.

Inspired by PortM, am going to stock up on cheap and cheerful "romanesque" stuff and go for the mass effect.

Wish me luck!
Jim

Hi Jim,

I make no claims to omniscience, I merely (mis)spent a butterfly youth and have now outlasted many of my contemporaries so I have picked up some stuff on the way. Also I admit to being totally perplexed by the question of Chervil. Coincidentally the current edition of Fork, a foodie magazine has an article about it by Jekka claiming that it was introduced by the Romans, it also contains another article stating that Alexanders was, - wait for it!- introduced by the Romans and a further one claiming that Acenna asiatica may be gathered on English cliffs so just how authoritive the journal is, I leave to your judgement. Anyway, the eminently respectable Stobart and Van Wyk say that the Romans spread it about their empire and Sturtevant says that Pliny claims that it was cultivated by the Syrians, though none of these gives a proper reference. Have you discovered what Pliny calls it? Clearly not a variant on the medieval Cerfolio or Apium risus Admittedly in his list of plants eaten in Egypt, Pliny (21 :89) does have Scandix which Lewis and Short enter under Anthriscus but as Pliny says that it has leaves like those of Saffron, I have my doubts. As far as I can tell, Chervil isnt in Apicius, but I wouldnt expect it to be, its delicate flavour would be drowned by all that rotting fish the Romans enjoyed so much.
So yes please, do come and visit. The garden here is scarcely classical, the sole criterion for planting anything in it is whether it will survive the destructive habits of the deer population. It would be an excellent idea to combine your trip with a visit to Jekka. As most people know, our approach to herbs is very different, so you will have an enjoyable time assessing and comparing. Meanwhile I cant overstate the wisdom of consulting Sally Grainger on Roman culinary herbs, she really is an expert., I will send you her address in a private message.

Anthony

This all got put on the back burner for a while (got my first allotment this year!) but for anyone interested I'm up and running again and have started taking photos of the project as it evolves:

http://www.yourconvenience.co.uk/Hortus.html

Not masses there yet, but will be adding lots soon,
Jim

It all looks wonderful, Jim, I'm very impressed!

Sarah

Hi Jim

Well done on the progress so far, my own garden has been neglected a little this summer, the most I've done is turn the veg beds created last year into an edible floral herbs bed and a medicinal herbs bed (no time to tend what little veggies are left that the slugs didn't eat!) and they are looking a little sad, but they'll fill out with time, the rest of the garden is looking like a jungle with calendula, sage, evening primrose and roses spilling over everywhere but I'm loathe to cut it all back as it smells wonderful when I walk around the path. so many things self seeded into the path and flowered it seems a shame to tug them out. I'm making some marigold scones though this afternoon from one of Jekka's recipes so will use the marigolds in the path for that.

I LOVE the roman helmet complete with chive leaf plume, its those little touches that breathe life into a garden and give it a personality! I'm looking forward to seeing the mosiac when finished and watching the garden develop, thanks for sharing.

Interested in the software you used for the slideshow as well, it has potential applications for the HS website. I plan on taking small videos like the one we have on You Tube from last years AGM and making slideshows of events for members to see if they couldn't make an event. I'd like to add audio files as well so members can here talks and that kind of thing.

Debs

Debs, the software I used for the slideshow is entirely free and available on the internet. It is Flash Slideshow Maker and will come up as such in Google.
Even my dozey cat, Ted, has worked out how to use it and his work is here (a good indication of what you can do with it plus music etc):

http://www.yourconvenience.co.uk/BrownLawn.html

Glad you like my Roman herb garden work. Anthony Lyman Dixon helped me early on. Then lately have been helped by ABSOLUTELY the best growing herbalist in Britain (pace Jekka but this lady knows far more than Ms McVicar IMHO )and that is Kim Hurst of the Cottage Herbery in Tenbury Wells Worcs.

Kim Hurst is an absolute expert. To me, as someone new to the game of constructing unique herb gardens, she is a bit of a hero.

Jim B

Thanks for that Jim. Everyone knows that I am far too sweet an old pussycat ever to get involved in discussions of the rival merits of various herb growers. I am also sufficiently experienced to acknowledge that in the past half century I have made errors myself that in retrospect make me cringe. I therefore get thoroughly irritated by those who claim to be the infallible fount of all herbal wisdom particularly when they are inclined to talk utter cobblers..

I therefore wholly endorse your remarks about the unfailingly charming Kim Hurst, in fact I often wish she didnt hide her light under such a dense bushel (are bushels dense?,- I dont know the answer to that one)

Anthony

Anthony, I've heard they've ordered a rewrite of the RHS 'Herbs' volume. (Last time they integrated it into the 'Flower and Plant' vol, didn't they? Apparently they now want to segregate herbs again).
Since Deni Bown is still alive, we must assume she doesn't want to do it all over again. So what about you and Kim Hurst? I'd buy it - I'd expect it to be accurate!
Oh, and shennanigans with my Chrithmum Maritimum: yes, it WAS rock samphire I'd bought and incredibly it has utterly thrived, even though I neglected it, forgot to feed it salt water etc etc... fact is this stuff grows contentedly in a herb garden. I didn't expect that either!
(Tastes a bit rubbish, though, to be honest).
Jim B

Jim,

I am not sure that you are right about the RHS Herbs. I was to driven to distraction by the way in which the first edition split the details of each plant in to two sections and have finally just got around to buying the latest one, with a white cover. (Support the Herb Society and buy them cheap from Amazon!). There has certainly been another edition, with a lavender-coloured cover in between, which I believe united the details of each herb. The new one is a great improvement and so I dont see why the RHS should want to re-do it. I gather Deni has other things on her mind at the moment and is probably sick of doing endless re-writes but while the prospect of doing anything with Kim has an undoubted appeal, I am far too taken up both with the day job and with my medieval plant dictionary. Besides I feel to write authoritatively on modern herb usage, one has to be a competent biochemist, which I am not. Incidentally, you didnt mention that Kim and Rob Hurst are great pioneers of organic herb growing, though whether they were the first of our contemporary growers to adopt the technique, I dont know.

Oh dear, you have taken away the mystique of growing Crithmum. Like you say it grows quite happily in a garden and thrives on neglect. Much easier than many other Umbellifers in fact. I always tell my customers that many more herbs are killed by being fussed over than ignored.

Anthony