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Re: Whopper line pits
Posted by Lee on 11/22/2007, 9:13 am, in reply to "Whopper line pits"
User logged in as: Lee Robinson
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About 6 or 7 years ago, I travelled up to Bob Bonacorsi's place who was one of the premier Whopper line breeders and weight pullers in the country. I saw a number of the finest whopper dogs in existence and I will say the whopperline dogs are some PHENOMENIAL dogs, but I will be absolutely clear in saying they are in no way true APBT. One of my favorite dogs, Bullette, was produced by breeding my dog Levi to a whopperline female named Luci...so I am not taking anything away from the whopperline by saying this, as they have many excellent qualities if bred to the right dog. Also, if I didn't like them, I wouldn't have purchased 3. I owned those 3 whopper line dogs, and we also bred a few litters of Whopper line dogs (Tyson and Torque have been mentioned on this board before, but there were some others too). Luci and Enna were "pure" whopperline dogs, while Grit was heavy whopper but had a slight outcross back to other pit dogs.
Let me explain what I mean by "true pits." The whopperline, although exceptional, isn't really a true APBT. They are basically a "bandog" type of dog but instead of being bred for protection, they were bred for weight pulling and also bred with heavy pit influence. They had to have heavy pit influence to "fool" many people into accepting them as real pits dispite their outcrosses simply because to compete in some weight pulls they had to be ADBA registered (a pit registry). Some people get upset about this, some don't. I guess all that doesn't really matter to me. What matters to me isn't "purity" but the traits within the dogs, and these dogs have some excellent traits.
For one, they are EXTREMELY TRAINABLE. They really want to please their masters and they are very intelligent dogs. Next, they are EXTREMELY STRONG and powerfully built. They may lack a little agility and a little stamina in comparison to pure pit dogs, but they also bring more mass and more trainability. Next, they still have great prey drive...and if pure whopper line (no outcrosses) then they are typically not overly dog aggressive...which can be beneficial. And, finally, they are considerably bigger and have a different build than pure APBT as well. Generally they will have a slight underbite (if outcrossed like Grit this often isn't present, but in the pure whopper dogs it is typically there).
For a bandog program, I think it is best to use a whopper line dog with a dog with strong defense...and the reason I say this is because generally speaking defense is the weakness in the whopper line dogs. Some have it, like Grit...but Grit was an outcross (if memory serves me correctly he also had some Watchdog bloodline) which brought in some man aggression, but in a stable form. Grit was a balanced dog. Ironically, Grit produced better when bred to my Tosa and to Enna than he did when bred to Luci. The pure whopper dogs typically don't have man aggression or defense.
Here are some old pictures of Luci...
Luci doing some work on the sleeve...
Luci guarding...
Showing a little defense (Luci did not have a natural wrinkle in her muzzle, but was longer muzzled than most whopperline dogs 1/8" underbite)...
Luci doing a little prey work...
Here is Grit doing a little sleeve work...
Here is a picture of Tyson, who was produced here out of Grit and Luci. I will have to look to see if I can find a picture of the dog Torque we produced out of Grit and Enna. I preferred Torque much more than Tyson.
History of Whopper line dogs...
Bonacorsi's Porky (sire to Luci and Enna)...
Bonacorsi's Rosie (dam to Luci)...
Whopper, who was bred back to pits to make the "whopper line" was often considered to be a DDB/AB (some suggest BM also), but regardless of him producing some exceptional working dogs, this dog most certainly isn't a true APBT...
Bob Bonacorsi gave me this picture of a dog named "Kick-Ass-Kicker" which clearly represents a Bandog phenotype...
Bob also had a number of dogs that ranged from 80-140#, but dispite their size, they were exceptional working dogs. I have often considered getting another whopper dog, but in the last 5 years of looking I haven't found the quality that Bob was producing...and I have not been able to get ahold of Bob.
It was obvious these dogs looked far more like "Bandogs" than they did APBT. Well, honestly, they didn't even look like real pits at all to me, and Bob never claimed them to be. Bob is a real stand up guy IMO and was honest about what the dogs were to the best of his ability. He began referring to them as "Oklahoma style Bulldogs." There are other breeders producing these dogs today, but I just haven't seen the consistent quality of Whopperline dogs Bob had being produced anywhere else.
This dog "Bonacorsi's Big" was about 140#, but he was overweight when I saw him. He probably should have been around 125#...
Another picture of Bonacorsi's Big...
Here is a picture Bob gave me with Big and Luci (yes, my Luci that I got from him).
Here is Grit's sire, Bonacorsi's Gunner...which was where Grit's outcross came down from as Gunner was not a "pure" whopper dog...(Grits dam was pure whopper). I watched Gunner work, and he was a very impressive dog!!!!!
Here is Rack, who weight probably 120-130# or close to it.
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