Here you can have discussions about Macedonia in particular and the Balkans in general.
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1. We don't claim the right on Ancient Macedonia or Alexandar. This is a myth produced by Greek propaganda and fueled by wanna-be-intelectuals from my country and our diaspora with their ridiculous claims, DNA analysis etc, who are unfortenately always the loudest.
2. We don't deny our Slavic roots. In every official history book which is by the way thaught in the schools here, we consider our ancestors to be the Slavs. Ancient Macedonia is never refered to as our legacy.
3. We are not a communist experiment, we are not artificial nation as some claim, we have our own culture and heritige, very similar to the Serbian and Bulgarian one, but still distinct. The fact that our national genesis took a bit longer than with the others doesn't necesarilly mean that we are a sub-culture of the Bulgarians or Serbs.
4. The fact that we identify ourselves as Macedonians is not a product of the "communist propaganda and brainwashing". It is simply the name under which my ancestors started to build our nationhood. We might not trace this back to the ancient times but we can definately trace it to the last 2 centuries.
5. Us identifying as Macedonians is not a threat to Greece, is not an attempt to steal your history or heritige, and the last thing we want to do is deny (try do deny) the right of the Greeks to identify themselves as Macedonians (if they come from this region). If we try to look the things in another way than the balcan black and white way, I'm sure that we can find a solution to share the name.
Now I don't know if these in-sights about your northern neighbour change anything for you, but I had to clarify some things.
I think it is very sad that two neighbouring nations who have so much in common (maybe we have a similar language with the Bulgarians, but you wouldn't beleive how similar are we to Greeks in so many other aspects of life) still pick on each other over such irrelevant matters. It is even sadder that the ignorance on both sides but I have to say especially on the Greek side is so big, that we stigmatize each other on base of very incorrect stereotypes. Of course I don't mean this in a offensive way, it's just that we have much more reasons to travel to Greece than you guys to travel here so we have more chances to see that the world is not black & white as some would like to present it.
PRETTY BRAVE AND HONEST WORDS!!!
BY THE WAY, THE LEAFS SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 7:49 AM from IP address 67.71.48.200
...i hope that you have not that typical stereotypic way of thinkin as some greek posters here has (if you followed some arguments from me with 'him' in the last days about to be "Macedonian").
Best greetings from Berlin!
Nikos
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 10:28 AM from IP address 84.59.29.100
.Macedonian and that this is totally unacceptable.
The fact is that in their history school books there is no mention of Macedonians' Greekness while the texts are that smart as to NONE could distinguish ancient Macedonians from those SlavoSkopians !!!
Stefanos could inform us about this!
Don't forget that SlavoSkopians would be really IDIOTS if they insist to be called Macedonian while are not related to ancient Macedonians !!!!!!!!!
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:28 AM from IP address 212.183.60.129
C'mon Greeks Control Your Retarded Spammers...Shame On You
by Feniks Makedonski (no login)
I never thought I'd see the day when this forum would implode from grk spamming alone...I've seen their relentless idiocy on Macedonian forum sites but never imagined they would bring down their own site...
And how this site has devolved...with only a few decent chaps left (stefanos and Nikos) and a few sometimes 'interesting' contributors (DAI, Houhoulis, Diamandi and Boris)...it is no longer even worth a short visit, let alone spending hours at a time reading and responding to posts...
One only needs to open the site and he's 'greeted' with "FACK THIS AND FACK THAT" titles with empty content...
You Greeks pride yourselves on the respect you have earned all over the world, as friendly people, western values, educated and cultured...sadly none of this is evident on this forum...the first time visitor will get an entirely degenerate perception of what it is to be Greek today.
Good work grk spammers and retards alike...
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:41 AM from IP address 144.131.20.186
Stop crying DAI...the day you stop insulting me, my people and my country is the day you will recieve my respect and when I begin to respond to your posts seriously...
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:47 AM from IP address 144.131.20.186
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:31 AM from IP address 212.183.60.129
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:30 AM from IP address 212.183.60.129
1) Practically nobody without any ties to the area has ever been or likely will ever be a regular on this forum, or any forums on your side that I could name. If some outsider really wants to learn about Greece, there are hundreds of other sites one would go to. Only a complete fluke would send someone here.
2) The big-time spammers have been at it here for at least the last two years. You've been here for far longer (five years?), and suddenly now this is a problem for you?
3) The only way to get rid of the spam is for the administrator to act. He has shown absolutely no interest in editing this forum save for removing the occassional post featuring extremely pornographic pictures. I was banned twice from Bill Nicholov's old M-4-M forum simply because he didn't like my opinions, and I was never obscene and never spammed. Given these two extremes, I'll take the total freedom of this forum.
4) We all have three options: learn to live with it, reduce our visits here, or stop visiting here.
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:14 AM from IP address 24.42.41.81
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:29 AM from IP address 212.183.60.129
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:32 AM from IP address 212.183.60.129
Take it as it appears:If he says Matsedonskji and Solun ,so he is a Voulgaros maybe resid
by AlexandrosThessalonikiMakedoniaEllada (no login)
residing in Skopjie area.But you have always to remember and select the Voulgarophones and Voulgarofrones from the Hellinofrones who also speak the idiom (the Voulgariko idiom around here and the other idiom around Skopjie).
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 6:51 AM from IP address 195.66.126.231
One can speak slavic but a have a greek heart.
Nikos speaks german and greek but he has spat on Macedonia's greekness.THAT'S WHY HE IS A TRAITOR OF THE CAUSE DECLARED ABOVE
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:08 PM from IP address 62.1.229.43
Petros, I would like to thank you for your effort - for writing such a long and thorough post. I appreciate the time and effort you took.
I will readily admit that I do not have such a detailed knowledge of ancient Macedonian history, so I will not try to dispute what you have written. On that same note, I am sure that what you have written can be found in hundreds of books, so how could I possibly dispute the historians? I will answer that later on.
So, what I will try to discuss with you is my opinion (that is what a discussion is, isn’t it?).
You clearly write that there was no Greek or Hellenic state/country, and that it was a “culture” instead, and yet that does not give you any basis for lumping the Macedonians in with the rest of the bunch. You cannot make the sweeping generalization that the ancient Macedonians were the same as the other Hellenic tribes just because they shared the same culture. That is like saying the Chinese and Japanese are the same. Well, which are they, Chinese or Japanese? Sure we can lump them all (with Korean, Thai, Laos etc…) together and call them Asian – but that doesn’t mean that they are THE SAME. Obviously ancient Macedonia outshined the others in conquering the Persians, just as the Athenians outshined everyone else in…., I don’t know…, geometry? To sum it all up, modern Greeks obviously would like to include the ancient Macedonians in their history – and have bits and parts of history to back them up, so the historians come to the same conclusions – but that is only one, GENERAL opinion.
Actually, at this point I want to change the discussion slightly. Have you read “The DaVinci Code”? If you haven’t, I’m sure I can still make my point. The controversy of the book is that Christian history is portrayed completely opposite to what we have been taught. The book gives logical and thought provoking reasons why we have been taught what we have and what the actual truth could be. The point the book tries to make is that what we have known to be true for 2000 years could actually be one big farce. I’m not talking about the spiritual religion ("Jesus Christ our saviour", etc…), I mean the actual story of Christ, Constantine, et al., the whole bible. The key theme is that Christianity as we know it was “created” for the financial gain of those in power (knowing that you are not religious, I am sure you already know that). Having said all that, my point is that if (and it’s a big IF, because the book is fiction) the book is true, then millions of people would have to re-evaluate their beliefs. Many would refuse to do so and many would embrace the new truth and many would be somewhere in between.
It is not in your favour to dispute what you/Greeks have been taught about the ancient Macedonians, you believe it to be true, you have a hundred books that prove it – how could you think otherwise? What I am trying to point out is that your perception of the truth is a little one sided.
Another point I would like to make about history, is that history has always been written by those in power. Those in power can easily influence what is recorded. It happens today, so why wouldn’t it happen 2000 years ago. Macedonians have not had power since Alexander’s time, Macedonians have been under a different rule since then and have NOT had their history recorded by themselves, but by others.
Let’s move on to modern Macedonian history. I am not going to go into much detail about the numerous wars and politics that happened over the past 100 or so years – as with ancient Macedonian history, the same can be said about “modern” history – the Macedonians (and I’ll call ourselves Macedonian, because I do not know any alternative), having been under various different rules for 2000 years, did not have the resources and support to establish a formal, organized leadership – and thus, could not write their own history. Clearly the most valuable aspect of our modern history is the Ilinden uprising. Macedonians wanted an independent Macedonia. Regardless of what a person spoke, or what they were "classified" as (ie: Greek, Vlach, Bulgarian, etc…) they wanted an independent Macedonia (independent of Greece, Bulgaria, etc…). That is my definition of a Macedonian. (the Ilinden uprising is just one example of Macedonian unity)
As you may (or may not) know, my parents come from northern Greece. Many of our customs and language has been taken from the Greeks, however, we are not Greek. Greeks think that we are all Bulgarians because our other customs and majority of our language is similar to Bulgarian. My parents came to Canada without even knowing that there was a province in Yugoslavia called Macedonia. They didn’t have a clue what Tito was supposedly trying to do. My parents are not historians or politicians – all they know is that they were discriminated against, forbidden to speak their own language, forced to learn Greek, etc… When they found out that a Macedonian church was being built in Toronto (and that the congregation was mostly Macedonians from northern Greece), they were ecstatic (in Canada they could worship in Macedonian freely!). When they met Macedonians from Yugoslavia (maybe not from Skopje, but from a village), and could understand them, they were ecstatic. When they first saw books written in Macedonian and not Bulgarian (yes, the languages are different – although a Greek wouldn’t be able to hear the difference), they were ecstatic. Thus, they embraced anything and everything that came from Yugoslavia. After the hardship they experienced in Greece, their Macedonian identity was finally being VALIDATED. Canada was able to give them that, whereas they would never have been able to experience that if they stayed in Greece.
So how can you tell me, when my great-grandparents fought for an independent Macedonia, that I am not Macedonian. If you want to keep your arguments based on your version of ancient Macedonia, then we really have nothing more to discuss.
In your last post you quote me and also wrote “Finally, you are really funny when you suggest that "...only 200 people in Greece think they are Macedonian..." In fact, your problem is that more than 2 million people in Greece declare themselves to be Macedonian, and more than 1 million are indigenous. They just have a different and more accurate meaning for that word...
I don’t disagree that you and 2 million others are Macedonian, however you do not agree that I am Macedonian as well. You seem to believe that only Greeks can be Macedonian. You have been taught the meaning of the word and you think it is accurate, just like in “The DaVinci Code”, maybe you have been taught something that only benefited the powers that be for financial gain. CAN you think differently just for a second? Or is it easier to keep the status quo? Changing the status quo would, in your mind, mean defeat – and yet, that is a very shallow way of looking at history. If you can't open your mind, we don't have anything to discuss.
As for the name issue, unfortunately for you, Greece has lost. We will either get a hyphenated name, or the name "Macedonia" will be spelled with a “j” and “k”. If and when this does happen, maybe then you will be able to alter your perspective of Macedonian history a little bit.
These discussions started because you thought I might have something to discuss, as opposed to me being someone who just wants to insult everyone on the forum. Like I said in the beginning, when I made any progress with anyone in the past on these forums, but then it got "too close to comfort" – because they didn’t want to alter their narrow minded perspective - they would resort to spewing off facts and quotes in defence, which meant the end of the discussion.
We’ll see how you respond now.
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 1:10 AM from IP address 70.28.215.99
These are the names of the kings of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia. If you can find any non-Greek name in those, then please send me a message, otherwise, you should wonder why they are all Greek...
ARGEAD dynasty and their mythical ancestors
Hercules
Illos
Kleodaios
Aristomachos
Timmenos
Kissios
Thestios
Merops
Aristodamidas
Phidon
Karanos (Late 9th/Early 8th Cent.BC) He built the city Aeges (Vergina)
Koinos (Mid-8th Cent.BC)
Tyrimmas (Late 8th/Early 7th Cent.BC)
Perdikkas I (670-652BC)
Argaios I (652-621BC)
Philippos I (621-588BC)
Aeropos I (588-568BC)
Alketas (568-540BC)
Amyntas I (540-498BC) From this period we have the first historical records
Alexandros I (498-454BC) Participated in the Olympics and received the title of the Philellin
Perdikkas II (454-413BC)
Archelaos I (413-399BC) Made Pella the capital of his kingdom
Orestis (399-396BC)
Aeropos II (396-393BC)
Pausanias (393BC)
Amyntas II the Lioras (393BC)
Amyntas III (392-370BC)
Alexandros II (370-368BC)
Ptolemeos Alorites (368-365BC)
Perdikkas III (365-359BC)
Philippos II (359-336BC) He first managed to unify the Greek states under his hegemony
Alexandros III the Great (336-323BC) His expedition spread the Greek culture and created a great empire
Philippos III Arrhidaios (323-321BC) Brother of Alexander III the Great, mentally incapable
Antipatros (321-319BC) He was appointed king until Alexander IV* would become adult
*Alexandros IV was the son of Alexander III and Roxani and they were both murdered by Kassandros in 310 BC
Immediately after Alexander's III death started the competition between his generals (Ptolemeos, Antigonos, Lysimachos, Eumenis, Leonatos, Seleukos, Dimitrios) for the throne of his empire. Very soon the empire was divided into 5-6 states that competed eachother, until the conquer by the Romans.
RIVAL KINGS: 319-301 BC
Kassandros Son of Antipatros that built Thessaloniki
Antigonos I Monophthalmos (319-301BC)
Dimitrios I Poliorkitis Son of Antigonos
Lysimachos
Seleukos Soter
Ptolemeos Lagos
ANTIPATRID dynasty
Kassandros
Philippos IV
Antipatros
Alexandros V
RIVAL RULERS
Dimitrios I Poliorkitis (294-288BC)
Pyrrhos (288-285BC)
Lysimachos (285-281BC)
Ptolemeos Keravnos (281-279BC) He was defeated by the Galats
ANARCHY
Antigonos II Gonatas (277-239BC) He reorganized the Macedonian kingdom
Dimitrios II (239-229BC)
Antigonos III Doson (229-222BC)
Philippos V (221-179BC)
Perseus (179-168BC) He was defeated by the Romans in 168 at Pydna
As you can see for yourself all the names of the kings are 100% Greek. The "historians" of FYROM, to overcome that problem, simply claim that the kings of Macedonia were hellenized but the people of Macedonia were not Greek! That is a smart trick for a propagandist, but it is very stupid for a historian. They interpret the facts only in the way that suits them best. If the people of Macedonia were not Greek then wouldn't there be any record of any kind of revolution against their "hellenized and therefore hostile" kings? Isn't that logical enough, or do we have to fantasize about ancient and mysterious conspiracies?
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 1:52 AM from IP address 70.30.11.100
The point of Petros is that if one questions the Hellenicity of the ancient Macedonians, then you can question the Hellenicity of all other ancient Greek states. How do we know that Athenians were Hellenes?
All I know is that I can read their texts (like in the Museum of Louvre) but so can a classic scholar.
Ethnicity is a shared state of mind with tangible manifestations though.
You say that you are Macedonian (which is your right of course) and that it's fine with you that some 2.5 million Greeks say that they are Macedonians too.
How can you say that though? Your "Macedonia" 's national anthem praises some Bulgarian high school teachers. Ours not.
Our Macedonians were preached Christianity by Apostle Paul (hence the Epistles to Thessaloniceans and Philippeans). Your "Macedonians" were preached Christianity by the Apostles of the Slavs of which you are so "proud" of.
Our Macedonians fought against Hitler in World War II. Your Macedonians greeted them and the Bulgarians as liberators!
For us, Macedonia goes up to Bitola (Heraclea Lychnidos). For you it includes Skopjie, the capital of the ancient Dardanians and Tito Veles the capital of the Paeonians all of which were at war with the Macedonians.
And so on and so on..
It has been shown that the "Macedonia for Macedonians" was a moto conceived by the Bulgars to appease the great powers who just 25 years ago cut in pieces their "great Bulgaria" which was a Russian Panslavistic creation to begin with. For sure the moto appealed to most of the people of Macedonia at the time shicne they were seeing the Serbians, Greeks and Bulgarians getting their freedom and themselves staying under the Turks.
We see how nations are created... and Tito's Macedonians are not an exception. Are not the Austrians Germans? Are not the Montenegrins Serbians? Are not the Cypriots Greeks? Are not the Taiwanese Chinese?
Anyway the case is not lost. There will be a compromise over a shared use of the term Macedonia till the Albanians overtake you and unite with mainland Albania and this will be the end of the story.
We will be both dead by then so why worry?
PS. As for Da Vinci Code... Of course Christianism died when it became a state sponsored religion like all other religions before and after that..
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:14 AM from IP address 141.211.186.170
I disagree with what you say, but more so on these two points.
by Peperki (no login)
You said: "Our Macedonians were preached Christianity by Apostle Paul (hence the Epistles to Thessaloniceans and Philippeans). Your "Macedonians" were preached Christianity by the Apostles of the Slavs of which you are so "proud" of."
That opinion is completely ludicrous. There is NO WAY you can say the Paul only preached to Greeks - try and distort the bible a little more, won't you.
You said: "Our Macedonians fought against Hitler in World War II. Your Macedonians greeted them and the Bulgarians as liberators!"
If it wasn't for the slavs, Greece would be singing the German anthem right now! Please, please, PLEASE find me some quote to prove that MY Macedonians greeted the Nazi's as liberators.
Either you don't know the bible and history, or you are so completely narcissistic that you can't see straight.
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 3:49 AM from IP address 70.28.215.99
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 9:34 AM from IP address 212.183.60.129
AT 800 BC THE MACEDONIAN ETHNOGENESIS WAS REALITY,MACEDONIANS USE TH CITY STATES CALTURE
by FOR THEIR OWN BENEFITS, (no login)
At 800BC Homer never Call you Hellenes, 499 BC the name was YAUNA,at the middle Ages the
by ITALIANS CALL YOU GRAECI (no login)
Homer lived many generations after the Trojan War.
The Greeks of the epics didn't describe themselves as Greeks (Hellenes), but as Achaeans, Danaans, etc.
"Before the Trojan war there is no indication of any common action in Hellas, nor indeed of the universal prevalence of the name .... The best proof of this is furnished by Homer. Born long after the Trojan War, he nowhere calls all of them by that name, nor indeed any of them
except the followers of Achilles from Phthiotis, who were the original Hellenes: in his poems they are called Danaans, Argives, and Achaeans"
- Thucydides
The Yaunâ in Asia Minor revolted in 499, but they were subjected again. Now, it was clear to the Persian government that the possessions in Asia Minor could be safe only when the Yaunâ in the west were subjected as well.
Two years later, king Darius sent a new expedition to the west. The commanders were Datis and Artaphernes. Herodotus presents the expedition as a punitive action against Eretria and Athens, who had helped the Ionians during their revolt of 499.
The modern English word Greek is derived from Latin Graecus, which in turn comes from Greek Γραικός (Graikos), the name of a Boeotian tribe that migrated to Italy in the 8th century BC, and it is by that name the Hellenes were known in the West. Homer, while reciting the Boeotian forces in the Iliad's Catalogue of Ships, provides the first known reference to a Boeotian city named Graea,[24] and Pausanias mentions that Graea was the name of the ancient city of Tanagra.[25] Cumae, a city lying to the west of Neapolis (now Naples) and south of Rome, was founded by Cymaeans and Chalkideans as well as Graeans who by coming into contact with Romans may very well be responsible for naming all Hellenic speaking tribes Graeci. The modern Italian city of Grai was also founded in antiquity by Graeans.
The concept of Hellene for a person of Greek origin was already well established since the late Middle Ages, but for the majority of the population, especially those in rural areas away from urban centers, the dominant perception was still that of a Roman, a descendant of the Byzantine Empire. Scholar Rigas Feraios called "Bulgars and Arvanites, Armenians and Romans" to rise in arms against the Ottomans.[57] General Makrygiannis recalled a friend asking him: "What say you, is the Roman far away from coming? Are we to sleep with the Turks and awaken with the Romans?"[58]
Greek (Γραικός) was the least popular of the three terms, but interestingly enough received by scholars disproportionately larger attention compared to its popular use. Adamantios Korais, a renowned Greek classicist, justified his preference in A Dialogue between Two Greeks: "Our ancestors used to call themselves Greeks
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 12:23 AM from IP address 72.140.251.131
Farewell, dear forum.
Ana8ema to xrono pou perasa diabazontas tis malakies sas edw mesa.Se afhnw me tous amorfotous "oneliners" sou, ton akathoristou ethikothtas apostath Niko, tous Skopianous filous tou na ton xeirokrotoun, kai tous Ellhnes kai ellhnikhs katagwghs amerikanous sou na propagandizoun to dikaiwma twn Skopianwn sto onoma twn Makedonwn gia xarh ths "eirhnhs", ths "adefosynhs" kai ths "istorikis alitheias".
"Macedonia: 4000 years of Greek culture and civilization".
Ante geia!
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 12:22 AM from IP address 195.74.237.200
Einai men Voulgarikhs katagwghs alla misoun thn katagwgh tous. Apokleietai na ginoun Voulgaroi. Allwste emeis den 8eloume na ginoun, aplws 8eloume na mhn legontai Makedones. An vroume lysh 8a yposthri3oume ton diazwrsmo apo touw Voulgarous. Einai 8ema propagandas.
Sho gluposti se ovie be!!! Sram na tebe fyro-zombies!!!
jas sum Macedonec od Kastoria.Feniks, povekje Macedonec sum od tebe. Jas ziveem i rabotam tuka vo
Makedonija (vo Grcija, ako site znaat deka: Makedonija=Grcija) ama ti
kaj si i kaj ziveesh i rabotish?
Zoshto be ne sakate i vie da
bidete Grcite? I sho barate na forumo? Ajde, nazad na Skopjenistan!
Ajde mrsh!
Kostas -Macedonec od glaa do peti
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 12:02 AM from IP address 195.74.237.200
Sho gluposti se ovie be!!! Sram na tebe fyro-zombies!!!
jas sum Macedonec od Kastoria.Feniks, povekje Macedonec sum od tebe. Jas ziveem i rabotam tuka vo
Makedonija (vo Grcija, ako site znaat deka: Makedonija=Grcija) ama ti
kaj si i kaj ziveesh i rabotish?
Zoshto be ne sakate i vie da
bidete Grcite? I sho barate na forumo? Ajde, nazad na Skopjenistan!
Ajde mrsh!
Kostas -Macedonec od glaa do peti
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 12:24 AM from IP address 195.74.237.200
week sat-bas hafta agar hafta hafta
NEDELA (NEDELA also = Sunday)
month mastruk mas mos mihana miasht
MESECH
year kao sal si sal kal
GODINA
old shumberan paranu syuma purana zor
STAR(O)
new noa nogh nui nea nawe
NOVA
good prusht jam lasta acha xu
DOBRO; AREN
bad shum shum digar xarab xarab
LOSHO
wet grila zah zheli bhiga lund
VODENO
dry shushta ChuChhu drisht xushk wach
ISUCHENO
long driga drung darga lamba ugud
DOLGO
short betsak iskurdi moti chota lund
NISK
hot tapala pech pech garam tod
TOPLO; PECHI; GORI
cold osh ushak yuz thanda yax
STUDENO; MRAZ = icy
right drach hoski dachin dae xe
TOCHNO = correct; DESNO = right-hand; PRAVO = correct
left kawri kholi ka bae gas
LEVO
near shoiuna shoi tevire qarib nizde
BLIZU
far desha duderi badyur dur lare
DALEKU
big gada Lot alr bara ghat
GOLEMO; MNOGU
small chutyak tsiq parmi chota warkote
MAL; NISKO = short
heavy anguraka qai gamwo bhari drund
TESHKO; MNOGU = a lot
light lots lots luka halka spak
LESNO = light load
above tara sora ula upar uchat
OD GORA
below nuna mula viri niche lande
POHT
white goirak shpiru kashir sufed spin
BELO
black krizhna sha zhi kala tor
CHERNO (KALESHO = dark)
red lachia krui za lal sur
CHERVENO (compare 'krui' here and 'krizhna' above and compae 'cher' in Macedonian)
one ek i ew ek yao
EDEN; EDNO (SAMO = alone; only)
two du ju dui do dwa
three tre troi tere tin dre
four chao Chor shtewo char salor
five poin poch puch pach pinza
six sho Chhoi shu che shpag
seven sat sot suth sat uwe
eight asht usht ushth ath atu
nine no niu nu nao naha
ten dash jush duts das las
eleven dashyega sushi yanits gyara yaolas
twelve dashyedua johju dits bara dolas
twenty bishi bishir vatsi bis shal
one-hundred shor shor putsi ekso sal
who kura ka katsi kun sok
KOI
what kia kiagh kai kya su
SHO
where kawa kura kor kidhar charta
KADEH
when kayo kiawaht koi kab kala
KOGA
how-many kimon kanduri chuk kitne somra
KOIKU
which kure kiwali gajista kensa kam
KOIYEH
this ia haya eni ye da
OVO
that se hes iki wo agha
THO
these emi hamit amni ye da
OVEIYEH
those eli het amki wo agha
ONEIYEH
same barubar barabar erngest ekhi yaoshan
EISTO; LICHNO
whole taza pura pura mukamal rogh
CHIELO
broken chhina Chhirdu patingusti tuta mat
SCKRCHENO
Krste Misirkov 1924: "We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The populatio
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Krste Misirkov 1924: "We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian.
"Our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians"
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 11:57 PM from IP address 212.183.55.122
Any "Greek" who calls this salad of unidentified ethnicities as "Macedonians",thus SPITTING IN THE FACE OF HIS MACEDONIAN COMPATRIOTS, is simply IGNORANT and ILLITERATE.
(I 'm greatful to the other "nikos" who used your name in such a way.You tasted a small pinch of the insult,the anger, the injustice which every real, self-aware macedonian experiences every day of his life).
Furthermore, if this "Greek" appears in a forum under the title "Makedonia: 4000 years of Greek civilization and Culture" to propagate the myth of Macedonian nation with a slavic character and a Macedonian language, using classical Skopian arguments and propaganda, then this "Greek" is simply a TRAITOR.
NO "BUTS", NO "IFS".
If the individual in question takes one step further ahead and starts boasting for his autonomist uncle, while the Skopians are clapping chearfully,saying that he's trying to trace his non-greek roots in "Kostur", then this person suffers from a very serious identity crisis.Such persons were called APOSTATES in Macedonia and have been well described in Yannas testimony:
Cases like the one above, regarding ignorant American,Canadian,(German) citizens of unidentified national identity, lured by "nice" Yugo-Skopian "friends" I have seen many times in the past.
Dear Nikos, I have absolutely NO REMORSE for calling you a TRAITOR (after all, you were the first who started swearing NOT ME).
That's not because of your friends, but because of your politically anti-greek views.And a Greek,using the term "macedonian" in a non-greek context over 9 out of 10 cases in his everyday life or in a Greek forum against skopian propaganda expresses a crystal clear political view....that's politics of the worst kind.
Do yourself a favor and leave this forum.Go to some skopian site to prove your friends' "macedonianness".
Shame on you for your insult against my country.
Åßóáé áðëÜ áóõã÷þñçôïò!
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 10:07 PM from IP address 212.54.216.193
At 800BC Homer never Call you Hellenes, 499 BC the name was YAUNA,at the middle Ages the
by ITALIANS CALL YOU GRAECI (no login)
Homer lived many generations after the Trojan War.
The Greeks of the epics didn't describe themselves as Greeks (Hellenes), but as Achaeans, Danaans, etc.
"Before the Trojan war there is no indication of any common action in Hellas, nor indeed of the universal prevalence of the name .... The best proof of this is furnished by Homer. Born long after the Trojan War, he nowhere calls all of them by that name, nor indeed any of them
except the followers of Achilles from Phthiotis, who were the original Hellenes: in his poems they are called Danaans, Argives, and Achaeans"
- Thucydides
The Yaunâ in Asia Minor revolted in 499, but they were subjected again. Now, it was clear to the Persian government that the possessions in Asia Minor could be safe only when the Yaunâ in the west were subjected as well.
Two years later, king Darius sent a new expedition to the west. The commanders were Datis and Artaphernes. Herodotus presents the expedition as a punitive action against Eretria and Athens, who had helped the Ionians during their revolt of 499.
The modern English word Greek is derived from Latin Graecus, which in turn comes from Greek Γραικός (Graikos), the name of a Boeotian tribe that migrated to Italy in the 8th century BC, and it is by that name the Hellenes were known in the West. Homer, while reciting the Boeotian forces in the Iliad's Catalogue of Ships, provides the first known reference to a Boeotian city named Graea,[24] and Pausanias mentions that Graea was the name of the ancient city of Tanagra.[25] Cumae, a city lying to the west of Neapolis (now Naples) and south of Rome, was founded by Cymaeans and Chalkideans as well as Graeans who by coming into contact with Romans may very well be responsible for naming all Hellenic speaking tribes Graeci. The modern Italian city of Grai was also founded in antiquity by Graeans.
The concept of Hellene for a person of Greek origin was already well established since the late Middle Ages, but for the majority of the population, especially those in rural areas away from urban centers, the dominant perception was still that of a Roman, a descendant of the Byzantine Empire. Scholar Rigas Feraios called "Bulgars and Arvanites, Armenians and Romans" to rise in arms against the Ottomans.[57] General Makrygiannis recalled a friend asking him: "What say you, is the Roman far away from coming? Are we to sleep with the Turks and awaken with the Romans?"[58]
Greek (Γραικός) was the least popular of the three terms, but interestingly enough received by scholars disproportionately larger attention compared to its popular use. Adamantios Korais, a renowned Greek classicist, justified his preference in A Dialogue between Two Greeks: "Our ancestors used to call themselves Greeks
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 12:13 AM from IP address 72.140.251.131
What is Macedonian on you bre IDIOT ???
You are unable and ashamed to use ANY Macedonian toponyms, tikvar! How dare you to call yourself Macedonian? Are you an unindendified CLOWN ??
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 5:12 PM from IP address 194.63.235.157
....Furthermore, if this "Greek" appears in a forum under the title "Makedonia: 4000 years of Greek civilization and Culture" to propagate the myth of Macedonian nation with a slavic character and a Macedonian language, using classical Skopian arguments and propaganda, then this "Greek" is simply a TRAITOR.
NO "BUTS", NO "IFS".
If the individual in question takes one step further ahead and starts boasting for his autonomist uncle, while the Skopians are clapping chearfully,saying that he's trying to trace his non-greek roots in "Kostur", then this person suffers from a very serious identity crisis.Such persons were called APOSTATES in Macedonia and have been well described in Yannas testimony:
--->YOU TWIST THINGS BECAUSE SEVERAL POINTS OF YOUR TEXT ABOVE ARE SIMPLY FALSE. F-A-L-S-E. I HAVE NO UNCLE IN "KORITSA". I DON'T USE "SKOPIAN" ARGUMENTS AND SO ON (PROOVE IT WHERE I USE IT) AND SO ON.
THUS YOU ARE SPITTING AGAINST YOUR OWN COUNTRYMEN BECAUSE YOU ARE B-E-L-I-E-V-I-N-G F-A-L-S-E THINGS.
SH_T THE F_CK UP NOW.
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 10:15 AM from IP address 84.59.29.100
Two Bulgarian women — a mother and her daughter — were yesterday charged by a prosecutor in Crete of being involved in an illegal child adoption ring, court sources said.
The women, aged 48 and 25, were arrested in Iraklion on Tuesday on suspicion of being linked to a ring that brings pregnant young Bulgarian women to Greece a few weeks before their due dates. Police said the women are taken to a state hospital to deliver and the ringmasters then put the baby up for adoption. The children are illegally sold to childless couples, officers said.
The 25-year-old woman had recently given birth and was charged with attempting to illegally give up the child for adoption, which is a criminal offense. Her mother was charged with the same crime but was also accused of attempting to profit from the offense.
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 8:51 PM from IP address 84.59.40.136
Krste Misirkov 1924: "We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The populatio
by YU-BULGARS!BULGARIA IS YOUR FATHERLAND (no login)
Krste Misirkov 1924: "We are Bulgarian more than the Bulgarians in Bulgaria. The population of Skopje is pure Bulgarian.
"Our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians"
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 11:58 PM from IP address 212.183.55.122
I am probably the oldest surviving member of the original team, and I have seen a lot of ups and downs in this forum. This era is definately one of the worst in many respects. I could't even imagine that the old battles between me and Illiden would be looked upon as a high point of this forum, but at that times we had mostly intelligible conversation and exchange of valid arguments. Not quite a few posts would take more than a page, and they were not exactly copy-paste articles.
One thing for sure, I believe that the volume of responses from each side does dot determine the better side, but the overall quality of posts and the volume of the quality posts does.
Any independent observer who visits this forum would inevitably conclude that if one side is trying to have a valid discussion, and the other is spamming incestantly, then the second side is simply lacking of valid answers and thus it is trying to silence the first side. The situation is even worse if there are some folks from the the second side agree with some points presented from the first side, and then some other folks from the second side are trying to intimidate both those dissents from their side, with spamming.
If any of you wants to have respect, and not to get insulted on an everyday basis, by the majority of the members of this forum, you'd better try to communicate in a civilized manner. Either you like it or not, the major dividing line in this forum is not one nationality against another, but those who can post intelligent posts against those who cannot. All other divisions come in second place.
Alright?
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 5:19 PM from IP address 12.43.115.213
You have chosen the last effective one.. "spamming"...
What is spamming? Who is spamming? He who has no arguments or is not right about something.. By spamming and offending you show that we (Greeks) do not have arguments and therefore we need to offend etc to "make our point"..
You are no better than Foenix..Peder.
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 9:18 PM from IP address 141.211.186.170
The soldiers' duty is to guard his country, not to insult his enemies. (right Fenix?)
by
(no login)
I have been insulting Fenix much more effectively than most around here. A couple of days ago I found a reference from oner of theirs that proved that they were mistreating the Albanians. I called him a bastard at the very title of my post. He didn't even say a word. The next day Classicist replied to my message, and pounded Fenix as well. Fenix responded to the Classicist with some irrelevant comments, while he commented to another post of mine which said: "Phoenix, I do not hate you, I hate those who make me agree with you", and he tried to convince me that I have no reason to hate him, and that he and his folks are good guys, but I have never known any of them. Of course, this is his opinion.
When I asked Fenix if he considers me a Xenophobic person, long time ago, he didn't respond, and I won't respond to him either. There is no reason after all. I called him a bastard, I cited a reason for that (He has been whining that the Albanians are ungrateful animals for a long time) and he won't dear to throw anything back at me at this phase.
You see, unlike you, I am capable of bringing them down, when I can support my thesis with substantial evidence...
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 9:26 PM from IP address 64.110.51.254
Petros you make some fine points , but LOXIAS IS ALO CORRECT WHAT THE SKOPES ARE DOING IS
by etan e epitas (no login)
UNFORGIVABLE!! there is no such thing as an unbiased opion or outside opinion in the MACEDONIA ISSUE the historical and archilogical evidece is overwhelming that it is Greek and it has been posted here on more than enough occasions . those who try and didtort the evidence to aid in there own personal agenades do not have Greece`s best interest in mind any non GREEK one who cLAIMS Macedonia history OR HERITAGE AS THIER OWN is an enemy of Greece is and imy opinion desrving of death
monon lave etan e epitas
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 6:39 PM from IP address 64.12.116.68
You are right, but you don't pay attention to their grievances.
by
(no login)
Although Ancient Macedonia was Greek in practical terms - There were no nations back then, and thus nobody of the Ancient Greeks belonged to any (imaginary) Greek nation.
On the other hand, during the Middle Ages, the Slavs invaded and exterminated a large portion of the Macedonian population. Although this is not something that we should forget, and they don't even ask us for forgiveness, one cannot deny that those people were living in Macedonia for a very long time, almost one and a half thousand years. Many of these were kicked out from Greece violently. Many died, although did not happen in a planned way, but mostly during the Balkan wars and the WWI. They have some reasons to hate us, shouldn't they?
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 9:34 PM from IP address 64.110.51.254
`They have some reasons to hate us, shouldn't they?``PETRO KAPOU KAPOU TA MPERDEVIS LIGO.
by loxias (no login)
KALITERA INE OLI AFTI I BASTARDI NA ANIKSOUNE TA MATIA TOUS.
ESI KE O ISTOR ME OLA TA ATRANTAKTA EPIXIRIMATA SAS TI NOMIZIS OTI KATAFERATE;;
I SLVOBOULGAROI VOVOUNTE KE SEVONDE MONO AFTON POU EXI DINAMI KE DEN ASTIEVETE. P.X : VASSILIOS BOULGAROKTONOS TOTE, TO NATO SIMERA.
14 XRONIA SINOMILIES ( TALK FOR THE TALK ) TI APOTELESMA EXOUNE?
OTAN TOUS ANAGNORISANE I AMERIKANI ( EAN I EL. KIVERNISI IXE PI OTI INE EX8RIKI ENERGIA APO SIMAXO XORA, KE IXE ANASTILI TIN LITOURGIA TIS SOUDAS ),
8A STELNAME ENA MINIMA SE OLOUS EX8ROUS KE FILOUS, OTI KAMIA LOUGRA DEN MPORI NA PEKSI ME TA E8NIKA MAS SIMFERONTA. OMOS.... TIN SINEXIA TI KSERIS.
GIA AFTO FILETO KALITERO INE: SI VI PACEM PARABELLUM.
FILIKA
LOXIAS.
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:20 AM from IP address 213.84.59.197
`They have some reasons to hate us, shouldn't they?``PETRO KAPOU KAPOU TA MPERDEVIS LIGO.
by loxias (no login)
KALITERA INE OLI AFTI I BASTARDI NA ANIKSOUNE TA MATIA TOUS.
ESI KE O ISTOR ME OLA TA ATRANTAKTA EPIXIRIMATA SAS TI NOMIZIS OTI KATAFERATE;;
I SLVOBOULGAROI VOVOUNTE KE SEVONDE MONO AFTON POU EXI DINAMI KE DEN ASTIEVETE. P.X : VASSILIOS BOULGAROKTONOS TOTE, TO NATO SIMERA.
14 XRONIA SINOMILIES ( TALK FOR THE TALK ) TI APOTELESMA EXOUNE?
OTAN TOUS ANAGNORISANE I AMERIKANI ( EAN I EL. KIVERNISI IXE PI OTI INE EX8RIKI ENERGIA APO SIMAXO XORA, KE IXE ANASTILI TIN LITOURGIA TIS SOUDAS ),
8A STELNAME ENA MINIMA SE OLOUS EX8ROUS KE FILOUS, OTI KAMIA LOUGRA DEN MPORI NA PEKSI ME TA E8NIKA MAS SIMFERONTA. OMOS.... TIN SINEXIA TI KSERIS.
GIA AFTO FILETO KALITERO INE: SI VI PACEM PARABELLUM.
FILIKA
LOXIAS.
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:21 AM from IP address 213.84.59.197
E OXI KAI KYRIOS ESY BUSKOFSKI!SAS MATHAME TORA TI EISASTE!
DEN PISTEYO OI SKOPIANOI STON PROEKLOGIKO XRONO NA MHN PROSPATHOUN MPAS KAI TOUS ANAGNORISH KANENA KRATOS!
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 4:03 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
..if you cannot tell them that they are not Macedonian, just tell them that they are not related to ancient Macedonians by telling them all arguments about this. They don't know them at all. Tell them that they were Bulgarian until 1944. They don't know the whole truth.
This will be enough. Be sure that not all SlavoSkopians are as idiot as the propgandists we meet in this forum. Be sure that they will tell to themselves " if we are not related to ancient Macedonians then what the fack kind of Macedonians are we??"
If you cannot do this either, then stop claiming Greeks. We don't accept you as such.
when i went in London last March, i 've payed some 330 euros for Thessaloniki- Athens-Heathrow and Gatwick-Thessaloniki, but it was an emergency. we had decide to go in London only a couple of hours before.
you can find tickets for London with 200 euros if you book it a few days before and mostly out of season...
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 3:50 PM from IP address 195.97.106.34
The Science that Reveals our Genetic Ancestry. This book written by Prof. Sykes takes the reader on a path of scientific discovery about our genetic past. In this book he gives a first hand account of his research into mitochondrial DNA, which passes from generation to generation through the maternal line, allowing us to track our genetic ancestry through time and space. Prof. Sykes has found that almost all Europeans can trace their ancestry back to one of seven women, whom he named “The Seven Daughters of Eve”. In this book we learn where our ancient genetic ancestors lived and what their lives were like. “The Seven Daughters of Eve” does not only re-examine how we have evolved, but also gives us a new sense of individuality and identity.
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 2:06 PM from IP address 58.105.43.136
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YUGO-BULGARS (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 2:49 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YUGO-BULGARS (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 2:48 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YUGO-BULGARS! (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 2:50 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
This website was created 8-9 years ago to support the greekness of the name "Macedonian".
There were actually great moments. interesting articles were posted by all sides.
Now however it has deteriorated into a forum where 3 out of 6 frequent posters of Greek(?) nationality propagandize the "right" of "Goran" and his co-nationals on the name.
Greeks who still object are being attacked by the people in question with arrogance saying "ethnicities are artificial creations to divide people" (this exact fairy-tale/moto was used during the civil war to abolish the borders and create a united Macedonia within a "happy","noborder" Balkan-Federation.People who resisted then and saved Macedonia were collectively described as "nationalists","monarchofascists",etc,etc,etc while their opponents were acting as gulible idiots fighting for Tito's "anti-nationalists" (nai kala) visions).
Now to the point.Each and every one of you Arkadi,Stefanos a few other posters attacked me for calling Nikos a traitor.
We all had a cause some years ago, to defend Greece from the multi-faced, well-financed and extremely anti-greek in its nature propaganda stemming from Skopje and its Diaspora.Their aim is the complete defamation of Greece, the promotion of a "macedonian" national identity on slav- as well as greek-speakers from that region.
In the course you completely changed your views:
1)Nikos wrote a whole political manifesto on his friends makedonism.Even left a question mark hanging over the greek origin of ancient macedonians.When another guy used his name and attacked others he exploded in range.However he showed absolutely no senstitivity on how real Macedonians feel whenever mass media,politicians, historians,pantoeideis Goran&Nikolakides attack Greece using their name.That was an oxymoron.I pointed out the fact initially using no swearing.His response was irony and name-calling of the worst kind.
For me political manifestos and proud references to the separatist activities of relatives is a U turn, which gives me the right to speak of treason and apostates from the initial cause.After all I WASN't the first who used name-calling and swearing.
2)Stefanos.I respect some of your views.Hwever let me remind you that boris adn classicist too were attacked as grekophiles.(And sure they are in comparison to Pelister), this however doesn' mean I' m going to tolerate all that they write.
Mathimata patriotismou na dineis ekei pou se pairnei.Ego exo filies me apogonous eksarxikon apo Vodena.Tis theseis tous omos pote den tha tis sthriza OUTE STO ELAXISTO.Xreiasthke na tsakotho se kapoies faseis mazi tous oste na mathoun na sebontai thn Ellada, toulaxiston parousia emou.
3)Tony.You have supported every genocidal policy of your country, the United States in every country around the world, and you want to teach ME about ethos and dealling with other civilizations?And let me tell you something else.
You are referring colectively to "Slavic-speaking Macedonians".Do you think that slav-speakers like Alexandros Kirou who defended Zelevo from the Bulgars and the Yugozombeis is one and the same as Goran????
You think that slavic in Florina is the same as in Edessa.As for Understanding "slavic" coming from Ochrid and upwards forget it.Completely different language.
If that are your views dear "friends" , I wonder....
Just what is the point for Mr. Sideris to sustain this forum any more?????Bring it down!
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 1:25 PM from IP address 62.1.229.211
Perimena sygkekrimenh kritikh pano stis arithmimenes apantiseis pou xrisimopoiisa sta epixeirimata tou Nikou.
Akoma omws den eida tipota aksio logou apo thn pleyra sas.
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 1:32 PM from IP address 62.1.229.211
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by YUGO-BULGARS! (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 3:00 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by SKOPIANS ARE BULGARS!THE YUGOSLAV BULGARS (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 3:01 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
I know Macedonians from the Aegean with this same surname...
It wouldn't suprise me if the forum owner is a grkoman...LOL
And just a point about your bitchin'...this forum has long died...it was only ever going to sustain itself if the name issue was hijacked by the greek side, which was something that was never going to happen...the hard-core lunatics have slowly left with their tails between their legs, the final straw for most was the recognition of Macedonia by the USA...with the lunatic element gone a few reasonable greeks have managed to be heard above the rabble and ranting of a procession of grk retards...now a few fvckwits like you want to target them as if anybody cares what you have to say...
LOL
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 2:00 PM from IP address 144.131.20.186
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by SKOPIANS ARE BULGARS!THE YUGOSLAV BULGARS (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 3:02 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38
what are you talking about?
It means a blacksmith in Greek
BTW you havnt won any 'name' argument yet although we are being flexible the term Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia will not fly, EVER!
There must be a prefix otherwise no EU
Posted on Jan 27, 2006, 2:11 AM from IP address 66.106.241.14
>>>Stefanos.I respect some of your views.Hwever let me remind you that boris adn classicist too were attacked as grekophiles.(And sure they are in comparison to Pelister), this however doesn' mean I' m going to tolerate all that they write.
Mathimata patriotismou na dineis ekei pou se pairnei.Ego exo filies me apogonous eksarxikon apo Vodena.Tis theseis tous omos pote den tha tis sthriza OUTE STO ELAXISTO.Xreiasthke na tsakotho se kapoies faseis mazi tous oste na mathoun na sebontai thn Ellada, toulaxiston parousia emou.>>>>
first of all, you should adopt a nickname. "anonymous" is not acceptable for serious people.
if you noticed i attacked you (?) for using the term "traitor". you can not name someone a traitor because of his thesis. you can not name a traitor even a greek who's naming them macedonians. in my personal oppinion, the worse and real traitors were always among the so called greek ultra-patriots. dont forgot that mainly the colaborators of the Nazis were ahead of the "patriotic war" against the communists and the "bulgaro-eamites".
if you noticed i never said that i agree with Goran's anti-greek position, which anyway, most times, were under (merely excused) heavy anger status. i know Goran in person and i know much more about him and his views than anybody else here.
My aim, participating here, is to discover "the truth about macedonia" and not to confront in a blind conflict between "us" and "others".
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 2:07 PM from IP address 195.97.106.34
1)Nikos wrote a whole political manifesto on his friends makedonism.
--->Which "manifesto" you mean? (tststs)
Even left a question mark hanging over the greek origin of ancient macedonians.When another guy used his name and attacked others he exploded in range.
--->Yep cause in this case (forum) the name MUST BE unique. MUST BE. Anf if "you" don't learn the normal way... i MUST use the other way. Sorry for that but it is so.
However he showed absolutely no senstitivity on how real Macedonians feel whenever mass media,politicians, historians,pantoeideis Goran&Nikolakides attack Greece using their name.
-->Of course i have sensitivity about that name... feel FREE to ask about it.
That was an oxymoron.I pointed out the fact initially using no swearing.His response was irony and name-calling of the worst kind.
--->YEP.
For me political manifestos and proud references to the separatist activities of relatives is a U turn, which gives me the right to speak of treason and apostates from the initial cause.
--->You will not understand what i mean (but I understand you).
Nikos
PS: When goran is talkin "anti-greek" stances etc. this does not mean that i favour this nor this reflect my personal opinion.
And some lines from stefanos i agree 100%:
1. you can not name someone a traitor because of his thesis.
2. you can not name a traitor even a greek who's naming them macedonians.
3. if you noticed i never said that i agree with Goran's anti-greek position, which anyway, most times, were under (merely excused) heavy anger status.
4. My aim, participating here, is to discover "the REAL truth about any macedonia"
Last but not least:
--->you should adopt a nickname. "anonymous" is not acceptable for serious people.
Nikos
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 6:25 PM from IP address 84.59.51.66
The Jewish woman stood in the office of Bosnian president Alija Izetbegovic. She was distraught. She placed a handful of broken tiles on the desk in front of her and told the president's adviser, "It's a crime, a crime against culture. They are destroying a holy place, a place that is of incalculable value to Sarajevo."
"There's nothing we can do," the adviser replied sorrowfully. "They have the money and they are going to do what they want."
The most interesting aspect of this incident, which took place after the end of the Bosnian war in 1995, is that the temple the Jewish woman, an art expert named Zoja Finci, was attempting to protect was neither, as one might expect, a synagogue, nor a Serbian church. Rather, it was the Begova or Governor's mosque, the largest in the former Yugoslavia, and the main Islamic structure in Sarajevo.
Further, the presumptive vandals against whom Zoja Finci sought to protect the mosque were neither Serb extremists nor commercial developers. They were, in fact, just the sort of people one might have thought would target a synagogue or a Serb structure: Islamic officials backed by Saudi Arabia, engaged in a purported reconstruction.
The official Supreme Saudi Aid Committee occupies one of the largest governmental buildings in the Bosnian capital. The committee has paid for the rehabilitation of numerous mosques damaged during the 1992-95 war. But the aid is not always appreciated by ordinary Muslims, who, no less than art experts, have ways of expressing their resentments.
At the Alipasha mosque in Sarajevo, a lovely Ottoman structure with a slender, graceful minaret, only meters away from the committee's headquarters, the word "Saudi" has been scratched off the commemorative plaque announcing a donation for its restoration.
The problem is that the Saudis and their local agents are Wahhabis, followers of the main fundamentalist sect in the Islamic world. Wahhabis do not approve of Ottoman mosques. Their rehabilitation of the Imperial mosque, also in Sarajevo, turned what had been a beautiful, balanced complex of buildings, which seemed to invite entry, into something not much different from a parking garage in a Western city.
In October 1999, the Bosnian weekly Dani [Days] published an extremely revealing interview with Kemal Zukic, director of the Center for Islamic Architecture in Sarajevo. The interviewer asked Zukic about the wall decorations in the Begova mosque—precisely the panels, the removal of which caused so much anguish to Zoja Finci. He answered, "There were several layers of paintings, so that in the end we were in a quandary about which layer merited preservation. . . .The biggest contribution came from a Saudi donor. . . .Parts remain but most of the walls are now blank."
Pressed as to whether the panels that were removed would be preserved, Zukic answered testily, "I find it really hard to get excited over decorations inside the mosque. We are not in a situation like the more fortunate European nations, such that we could preserve our cultural heritage. . . .That was only an internal decoration and it was not intended to last forever."
Zukic is a graduate in architecture from the University of Sarajevo who has never practiced that profession, but who has produced elaborate plans for new Bosnian mosques. According to one foreign expert who requested anonymity after an interview with Zukic, "His ideas for mosque design involve knockoffs of Saudi-modern shopping mall architecture with odd touches inspired by the décor of the Love Boat, including portholes! He is the very model of the modern zealot, narrow-minded, arrogant, and so dumb he doesn't even realize it."
But at least the Begova mosque's outer walls remained. Elsewhere in Bosnia-Hercegovina, the fundamentalists, away from urban critics, pursue a more aggressive tactic. Dani reported that Muslims in the rural town of Vrbovik were angry because they had understood funds had been donated for the reconstruction of their traditional, Ottoman mosque, which was on the front line and was destroyed in the 1992-95 war. But that money was diverted elsewhere, while two new mosques and six smaller prayer structures were erected in the Saudi style. The local Islamic cleric, Hadji Salih Avdukovic, commented angrily, "These people are hypocrites. They want to do everything from scratch."
Dani is a sensationalist organ, but in this instance its reportage was on the mark. Thanks to the seemingly inexhaustible financial resources of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, Wahhabis have appeared all over Bosnia-Hercegovina and Kosovo since the bloodshed ended. According to a September 9, 1999 news release by the Saudi Joint Relief Committee for Kosovo, out of four million Saudi riyals spent by the committeeon the ground in Kosovo, nearly half was spent to sponsor 388 religious "propagators" (i.e., missionaries), with the intent of converting Kosovars to Wahhabi fundamentalism.
Another six hundred thousand riyals went for the reconstruction of thirty-seven mosques, and two hundred thousand riyals was spent on two schools. The amount of money involved was fairly modest (four million riyals is a little more than a million U.S. dollars), except when one considers that the Saudis had only been on the scene in Kosovo for a little over two months at that point. It was characteristic that a greater proportion of Saudi aid was spent on fundamentalist "propagators" and on mosque building than on broader humanitarian needs.
Mosque architecture is not the Wahhabis' only interest. Walking the streets of Sarajevo, one might think they have gained considerable influence. Many young men wear "Islamic" beards, and numerous young women have adopted head and shoulder coverings, or hijab. The campus of the University of Sarajevo is especially notable for this habit, and a women's store with the amusing name "Hijab Boutique" opened near the old Ottoman market.
As the defaced plaque at the Alipasha mosque demonstrates, the fundamentalists are definitely unpopular with Balkan Muslims. In Sarajevo, hijab may be more a fad than anything else—and it certainly has not caught on in Kosovo, although many women wear Balkan head scarves.
There are other things that Balkan Muslims favor, but which Wahhabis disapprove. One is veneration of the dead. In Saudi Arabia itself, fundamentalists have, over the past two hundred years, destroyed all the tombs of the companions of the prophet Mohammed. In Kosovo, the Saudis offered to rebuild several mosques in the area of Vushtrri/Vucitrn, which were destroyed during the 1998-99 fighting. They promised the new mosques would be "better and more Islamic." But first, they said, the Albanian Muslims would have to uproot the Ottoman graveyards nearby.
Andras Riedlmayer, a Harvard University librarian and expert in this field, recalls an incident that took place in the Kosovar town of Peja/Pec.
I was told about an incident in 1998, when, as the villages in the surrounding Kosovo countryside were in flames, a group of Wahhabi missionaries—both Arabs and their Kosovar acolytes—came to town and tried to impose their own way of praying (the locals said it involved some "odd" body movements).
When the Wahhabis took out sledgehammers and set aboutsmashing the 17th century gravestones in the garden of Peja's ancient Defterdar Mosque, angry local residents beat them up and chased them out of town. I was shown the damaged gravestones, beautifully carved with floral motifs and verses from Qur'an. That was in the late summer of 1998. Six months later, in the spring of 1999, Serb paramilitaries came and burned down the mosque. Unlike the fundamentalist missionaries, they were not interested in the gravestones.
This sort of hard-shell outlook can scarcely appeal to the nationalistic Albanians, who, like their Serb adversaries, consider their graves to be proof of their claim on Kosovo. But fundamentalist proscriptions go on and on. They do not like music, except for the drum. They do not accept Sufism, or mysticism, as a part of Islam. Both of these strictures run counter to Balkan Muslim traditions.
Balkan Muslims are especially devoted to a practice that drives Wahhabis to fury: mawlid, or, as it is locally called, mevlud, the commemoration of Mohammed's birth. To the fundamentalists, celebrating the prophet's birthday smacks of the Christian-style worship of Jesus. Abdussalam Chouia, a leading spokesman for the so-called Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a body which has spent considerable time harassing the American media over the very use of such terms as "Islamic fundamentalist," professed not even to know what mevlud is. "It isn't part of Islam," he insisted.
CAIR members are, to put it delicately, masters at twisting words. The very idea of an organization concerned with "American-Islamic relations," as if all Americans agreed on Islamic issues, as if Muslim citizens of the U.S. were not Americans, and as if the Islamic world were united in a supposed confrontation with America, is absurdly presumptuous. But CAIR has succeeded in intimidating numerous American newspaper editors into a form of political correctness that involves coddling Palestinian and other extremists under the pretext that "American bigotry" threatens Muslims.
In Bosnia-Hercegovina, many Islamic officials dislike fundamentalist activities but are reluctant to denounce them. The Bosnians are avid for the money. Only a few local Sufis have strongly criticized Wahhabi missionizing, arguing that the long presence of Sufi spiritualism in the Balkans is incompatible with fundamentalist fanaticism. In the end, Balkan Muslims are desperate to be viewed as European, and submission to the will of the Wahhabis will certainly do nothing to advance that agenda.
Kosovo Albanian Muslims have been more forthright in airing their irritabilities on this issue. After all, they do not need the money. The Kosovars have a large emigration that supports their various reconstructive activities, and, in addition, the Kosovo Albanians are far more enterprising than the Bosnians. This is also an incentive for the Kosovars to express greater independence from those in the international community who seek to use a kind of "aid blackmail" to get the Albanians to do what they want. For example, Albanians are inclined to rebuild their homes themselves, rather than, as is the Bosnian habit, wait for the UN or Europe or the U.S. to do it for them.
In one of the more surprising recent developments in Kosovo, the fundamentalists came under verbal fire from the Kosovapress news agency, universally considered to be the media arm of the Kosovo Liberation Army. Kosova press declared:
For more than a century civilized countries have separated religion from the state. [However], we now see attempts not only in Kosovo but everywhere Albanians live to introduce religion into public schools. . . .Supplemental courses for children have been set up by foreign Islamic organizations who hide behind assistance programs. Some radio stations. . .now offer nightly broadcasts in Arabic, which nobody understands and which lead many to ask, are we in an Arab country? It is time for Albanian mosques to be separated from Arab connections and for Islam to be developed on the basis of Albanian culture and customs.
Dr. Rexhep Boja, president of the mainstream Islamic Community of Kosovo, expressed himself similarly, stating boldly that Albanian Muslims had followed their faith for more than five hundred years and did not need anybody to teach them how to be Muslims or how to decorate their mosques.
Nevertheless, the Wahhabis are making much greater inroads in Kosovo than in Bosnia-Hercegovina—notwithstanding Albanian tetchiness and the fashion addiction of Kosovar Albanian women, which makes hijab a rare sight indeed. Here, too, it has to do with elemental requirements. The Bosnians lack financial resources but they do not want for books or trained imams. The Kosovar Albanians do not need money but they have a thirst for books and a shortage of clerics. Many of the latter now go to the Saudis for training.
But the locals are not the only people concerned about the infiltration of Wahhabis in the Balkans. In Albania as well as Bosnia-Hercegovina and Kosovo, anxiety over the activities of Bin Ladin supporters has led American diplomats to entrench themselves behind high, thick walls observing exceptional security measures at their embassies and other diplomatic facilities.
At the end of March, a group of Saudi "aid workers" was rousted by UN police from a building in Prishtina, accused of surveilling foreign vehicles, presumably in preparation for a terrorist attack. A representative of the Saudis, one Al Hadi, complained that the telephone in the building where they resided had been tapped.
The upshot of this situation was visible in the first week of April, when Prishtina saw a spectacle unheard of in Sarajevo. A massive fundamentalist "cultural program" was held in the local sports stadium to celebrate the beginning of the Muslim new year. Thousands of Albanian Muslims, young and old, walked away from the event happily clutching works in Albanian that professed Wahhabi fanaticism. In May, the familiar Saudi Joint Relief Committee laid the foundation of a multimillion dollar cultural, sports, and religious center in the Kosovo capital.
Is there a solution to this problem? Surely there is, but it is ignored by the foreign authorities in Kosovo. Albanians in the region include a considerable Catholic minority, with a distinguished cultural legacy, as well as thousands of followers of heterodox Islamic sects such as the Bektashis, who drink alcohol and follow a kind of Islamic Unitarianism.
In the city of Gjakova/Djakovica, for example, Bektashis and Catholics far outnumber Sunni Muslims. Both the former groups merit assistance in such matters as education, care of orphans, and the reconstruction of destroyed religious architecture. But the foreigners pay no attention to such details. They dismiss the Catholics contemptuously as too few, and know nothing of the Bektashis. Somewhere down the road, however, the consequences of such cultural obliviousness could be disastrous.
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 12:39 PM from IP address 64.136.49.229
by the hundreds.Have a little more gratitude, you ungreatful man....
or do you prefer to speak about the connections of your president Sali Berisha with the wahabis residing for years in his Majesty's Court?????
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 12:43 PM from IP address 62.1.229.211
Saudi money is flooding Bosnia, converting people to Wahabbism by the thousands...that's the 'price' paid for Saudi 'help'...I'm sure the Wahabis will be door knocking in Kosovo as well...
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 12:55 PM from IP address 144.131.20.186
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
by SKOPIANS ARE BULGARS!THE YUGOSLAV BULGARS (no login)
Text of Delcev's letter to Nikola Maleshevski:WE ARE BULGARIANS!
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, Kolyo, ... May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans..."
Posted on Jan 26, 2006, 3:04 PM from IP address 212.183.62.38