naubos na ang "allowance" natin ng libreng post for May sa kabilang forum kaya dito na ko magrereply sayo. I hope you see this..

first, your apologies are accepted..but i think you misunderstood me when i told you to not to direct your argument AT the author(not TO). what i was trying to say is that if you refuse to accept a statement, you should not justify this refusal by criticizing the person who made the statement because the truthfulness of his statements does not depend on his virtues. hehe..evidently i am not a good writer, hence the copy-and-pastes..hehe.(i like math.))

ok it was foolish of me to think that my little quotation of Einstein would answer your questions.., my apologies to you. but you did ask science to explain some things..i think science can and has already answered your questions about love, different emotions, guilt and conscience(watch NGC, and other sci. programs)but since i'm no expert on these things, i decided not to trod down that path and instead assumed that science could not answer your questions(and quoted Einstein). but assuming that indeed science could not answer your questions...yet, why would i believe in a God who "maintains itself not in clear light but only in the dark"? always taking refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot upon makes that doctrine suspiscious.

"i remember we were talking about God (supreme being) and not religion. those are two different things."

The concept of a "supreme being" or God and religion come hand-in-hand. religions are complex systems of beleifs, practices, and attitudes by which people relate their lives to supernatural beings or principles. the concept of there being a "God" always sprouts from a religious doctrine, so obviously you can't have a God without religion.

i am glad you respect other people's opinions and i respect you for that. but we are not talking about opinions here..we are "analyzing pieces of reasoning and working out wether it is likely to be correct or not". so opinions can be freely given but not used to support a statement.

"..the ways of God is beyond anybody's comprehension."

with this statement, you are already assuming that there is a God. and again it hides behind a phrase that is quite difficult if not impossible to challenge. besides, being beyond anybody's comprehension does not prove if something is true or false.

hehe..i'm sorry if my mentioning the hula of Madam Auring(or some other manghuhula) and the ways of "God" in the same sentence insults your beliefs but i was just using that as a premise to prove a point.

about genesis..by stating that it is the past and history and so on..you are already assuming that the bible is perfectly accurate. and assuming that it is, there is still the matter of interpretation..

i concur with the 4th par. of your last post, but the one after that is quite inconclusive. yes, those statements are based on the premisses asserted in the orig. article but false conclusions can be derived from true premisses just as true conclusions can be derived from false ones.

on my statement, "...hirap ng buhay ko nuon, buti na lang andyan si satanas para damayan ako.." i was merely using this as an example to prove a point it doesn't necessarily mean na naniniwala nga ako that Satan exists.

on the same subject...it's not possible to believe more in just one of such beings and not the others. doing so constitutes a flaw in your reasoning unless extraordinary evidences will support it.

i find it insulting for you to assume that i am having this discusion with you because i don't "feel" God in my life. it's like you are saying that i have a f*****-up life and that is the reason for my beliefs. I'm sure that is not what you meant with your last par.. just wanted to let you know how i feel about it.

lastly, it may seem that i am trying to break your beliefs(hence your call for a truce) but i am not. i was just trying to lessen my uncertainties through a discourse, but i sure wish it was through intercourse..hehe()yes i know...corny. sorry..i couldn't resist it..hehe:) the TRUCE is now officially declared

buti na lang sumilip ako sa forum na to kung hindi na miss ko to. siguro nga we should have a forum that can hold more than 10kb of messages (lol).

sorry if you were insulted when i said you are not feeling God and I am that's why our different beliefs... it's not meant to tell you that your life is f***k up. i have a friend who doesn't believe in God but is having a good and happy life. ang sabi ko lang... to experience God is to feel him and not to see Him. so since you are saying you don't believe in Him, isa lang yon.. you don't feel Him. coz if you do, meron pa ba naman tayong discussion ngayon? anyway, have a nice day. impressed ako sa haba mong sumulat at magpaliwanag with all those premises..etc... wala akong ability (or patience) na ganyan.. i dissect ng isa isa ang mga words and sentences...

before i forget, next time, kung sasagot ka sa posts ko.. wag namang masyadong mahaba he he.. hindi naman masyadong nagre register sa akin lahat ng sinusulat mo about premises, conclusions, etc..etc.. i'm a "feel" person and not a "think" person especially when it comes to God and my faith... kita mo mas napansin ko yung sinabi mo na nainsulto ka -- mas nag react ako don kesa don sa logic and (flaw of) my reasoning na sinabi mo sa lahat ng "bullets". hanggang ngayon ba naman hindi mo pa makuha na all our experiences with God cannot be explicitly explained in a way that you logical people can accept.

kelan ba nag-meet ang "logic" and "spiritual"? ..

kahit pa siguro yung pinaka eloquent na tao sa mundo, hindi kayang ipaliwanag sa akin ang gusto mong ipaliwanag. my reasonings may be flaw (sa standards mo) but my faith is there and that's all that matters to me. so balik na naman tayo sa old argument.. which will only make this discussion long but fruitless....

but let me ask you this.. are you 100% sure na yan ang pakiramdam mo na walang Diyos o meron ka lang gustong liwanagin? as i said.. both of us cannot be right. isa lang ang totoo.... either may Diyos o wala. no grey area.. it's either you're in or you're out... you cannot stand in the middle...

I agree, dapat nga magkaron tayo ng forum na mas malaki ang capacity. And sorry kung mahaba ako magsulat (I wish I could do this academically), I will do my best to compose a short reply, this time, to keep your attention. Hehe…megan without an “h” pala… sori naduling ako.

Ok first off, your apologies are accepted. I was just not clear on what you meant with what you said. Yes, I don’t feel God in my life, not because my life is full of miseries, but because I don’t feel him, period. Now if he showed himself to me and shook my hand, smiled at me and said, “Hi, I’m God. I created you and everything around you. Want me to show you how?” Then I would readily accept him.

Second, to me, logic strictly implies reality. But then, I can’t completely affirm the consequent because the absolute consistency of reality can only be achieved if certain conditions are met. A single significant external factor can alter the reality that logic aims to produce. Now this factor can possibly be something that science has yet to explore. So logically, God can’t exist. But if he, one day, rings my doorbell and proves to me that he exists and he is God then I will worship him. Clearly, there was a factor that I have missed and so I will modify my reasoning to take that factor into account. But until that happens, God does not exist.

Obviously, you don’t want to accept logic and cling on to your faith only when it comes to God. Why do you rationalize when it comes to other areas of your life and not when it comes to god? Does this mean that you already accept that logic can disprove God’s existence?

Faith = the complete acceptance of a truth which cannot be demonstrated or proved by the process of logical thought.

Why can’t you accept logic when it comes to God? I would guess that this is because of your emotions. Without keeping your emotions in check, there is no way reasoning can enter your mind because it often produces results that we don’t want. So without logic, how would you process or analyze things around you? Then comes faith. So, consequently, faith takes logic’s place. And there’s no way that logic can dislodge faith because it seems right. Faith promises to give us the things that we want but offering not a single evidence to vouch for it. Puro promissory notes lang.

I know it’s hard to accept that there is no God who loves and cares for us, no life after this one, no heaven to go to and all the good things faith has promised us. We cling on to faith, in the hope that it will keep its promises. Logic tells us otherwise, but who cares about it, we don’t want the reality that it offers, right?

Most of us blindly accept faith na lang. This often is a pathway to abuse, history proves this. Syempre, inemphasize kasi ng religious doctrines na you should not doubt your faith (I’m not sure) to the point na it is a sin to doubt. Parang God will send you straight to hell just for doubting his existence. He is a benevolent god, and he did give you your free will, didn’t he? So why would he judge you based on your doubts/beliefs and not on your actions?

Religion is always so poetic because it can mask the absurdity of the faith that it is based upon. Puro abstract saka sweet poetry para mas madaling tanggapin ng tao.

You can and should believe in God, without being irrational about it, unless, of course, you are afraid that doing so might disprove what you believe in now. I know a lot of theists who are critical and accept logic yet they keep their beliefs.

Lastly, you were asking me what I truly believe in? Actually there are 3 sides to it. On the left side of the spectrum, there are the atheists who absolutely believe that god does not exist. Then on the right side lie the theists who absolutely believe in the existence of God. On the middle are the agnostics who are not sure, because they are convinced that both sides do not have conclusive proof on their claims.

Ako, I lean more on the atheistic side of things because I have yet to see sensible and convincing proof of god’s existence and there’s quite a lot offered against it. Also, theism is the one making the positive assertions so I think it should be offering more evidence to back it up.

Therefore I believe God does not exist. Religion is not necessary. In fact, I believe we should cast it aside because it just divides us. And this division causes us a lot of pain and suffering, history assures us of this. Like capitalism, we tolerate it because it works not because it’s the best thing for us. It serves us socially, emotionally and culturally. But you can live your life and be socially, morally and culturally productive without its influence and boundaries.

It is better to live your life without religion but still be productive for the benefit of mankind because here, you have a win-win situation. If god does not exist, you have helped make life happier and did not waste time on religion. If he does exist, then surely, he will judge you not on your beliefs but your actions (if he is a benevolent god).

i told you not too long a response... sigh. .. anyway, it's not blind faith. if i don't experience him and i still believe in him, then that would be blind faith. to tell you the truth, i'm not very religious, meaning, i don't recite the rosary as often as the other catholics i know (i have to look at the prayer book to know all the mysteries), i miss hearing mass, the last time i had a confession was.... (i can't even remember), i miss some holy days of obligations, i don't kiss the hands of the priests, i very seldom read the bible... i believe in him not because of my church or its teachings but because of my family's experiences that even the church cannot help us. from the time i was born, we have been feeling his helping hands which we cannot really explain and which you wouldn't believe. we call them miracles --i don't know how you call them. i wont share those experiences here but those are enough for me to believe that He is present in our lives. i make decisions everyday-- made life changing decisions...and most of my decisions are accompanied by prayers to him. my faith in Him doesn't hinder me to prosper. i am not ruled by my emotions. if i am, then i'd probably won't be where i am now. i'd probably be back home.. in love yet miserable.... if i'm clouded by my emotions (love, anger, grief..etc), that's when he enters the picture..he enlightens me and helps me focus. that's how he works in my life.

i have this constant belief in him not because i'm afraid of him. you said that i don't even want to entertain any doubts of his existence because he might send me straight to hell if i do.. how can that happen?.. it never occur to me that he doesn't exist...

(i'm still tempted to continue this but it's quite late and i still have to get up early for an exhibit... i might add something next time...) have a nice day!

ok, im back... kaya lang late na naman. it's 1:26am and i'm not sure if i'll make sense to you. the way i see it, paikot ikot lang tayo at pareho tayong hindi ma budge sa ating beliefs.

anyway, question... how do you measure truth? not because a thing cannot be explained you will assume kaagad na it's FALSE. and not because you can explain one thing, that is already the TRUTH. Hindi yata yon ganon. Hindi porke't wala kang makuhang evidence of one's existence, you will already think that it's not really existing. What if you don't know where to look? It seems like you are overlooking the abilities of your heart. Puro utak (reasoning) pinapairal mo. If you believe that emotions can deceive us, sa tingin mo ba our thoughts can't?

when the world was young and there was no islam, judaism, etc..yet... men did have a god. he didn't have a name but they worshiped "him". did they have religion then?

religion doesn't divide people. people create this division. ginawa lang dahilan ang religion. i worked in the middle east before and in our department alone there were 7 nationalities, iba iba ang religion and it never became an issue with us. may muslim, may hindu, catholic, protestant, orthodox.. you name it... we worked well and we respected each other. if you will notice, the troubles that are "religion-related" are between two ignorant/fanatic parties. the sad thing is there are a lot of these people .. due to extreme poverty na rin and malice of their so-called leaders. some people were born to create troubles...

ok... time to go to bed.. i hope i made sense to you.