Well, I think we've found the oil leak. It appears to be coming from a cam bearing. We pulled the pan and distributor, and ran the pump with a drill with the pickup in a can of oil , and you could hear what sounded like oil squirting from up in the cam area. The engine builder is going to investigate further this week while I'm waiting on the new cam to arrive. Any thoughts as to the cause?

Alan

actually

If this is a BBF that is.

In our experience, a standard 2 bolt block with block fill flexes enough above the centreline of the block, at the 650+ hp area that the centre of the blocks gets outa line and the cam bearings become off centre to each other. The cam then augers itself sum clearances on the outa line cam bearings.

It holds true on some non filled blocks as well. We had a motor with a tightspot rollin over, but with 10 seasons on the motor, and it was the cam fightin the centre cam bearing when torn down. If memory serves this was on one o those blocks has the thin main webs. I dont remeber now what year block it was.

This, by the way, is one of the main culprits when your havin low hot oil pressure issues that come back to normal after the motor sits and or cools down after a run. It also foams the oil.

Our last stroker motor was so off centre in the cam bearings after a seasons running that a new cam would not go thru the new cam bearings. So we took an old cam and cut a groove in the rear journal to act as a cutter, and cranked the cam through the motor kinda like a line hone.

It now has three seasons on it and no issues.

"In our experience, a standard 2 bolt block with block fill flexes enough above the centreline of the block, at the 650+ hp area that the centre of the blocks gets outa line and the cam bearings become off centre to each other. The cam then augers itself sum clearances on the outa line cam bearings. "

This block does have a partial fill.

"It holds true on some non filled blocks as well. We had a motor with a tightspot rollin over, but with 10 seasons on the motor, and it was the cam fightin the centre cam bearing when torn down. If memory serves this was on one o those blocks has the thin main webs. I dont remeber now what year block it was."

I rolled the motor over several times by hand and never noticed any tight spots. Now the whole motor was tight, but the starter on the dyno had no problems starting it.

"This, by the way, is one of the main culprits when your havin low hot oil pressure issues that come back to normal after the motor sits and or cools down after a run. It also foams the oil."

Interesting that you mention this. When I took the Valve covers off, I noticed a little cream colored oil, and I also noticed a almost white paste like substance up in the front corner of the cover when turned over.

"Our last stroker motor was so off centre in the cam bearings after a seasons running that a new cam would not go thru the new cam bearings. So we took an old cam and cut a groove in the rear journal to act as a cutter, and cranked the cam through the motor kinda like a line hone."

Hmm, elaborate on this please. Seems to me that this technique would elongate one side of the bearings while leaving a gap on the off side, which would still cause an oil pressure problem.

well when a block goes outa square the cam bearings get wore all sides all the way round as the cam tries to make room for itself.

Take a towel and rope it and spin it like u were gonn a tap someone, you get the picture what the cam is doin in the bearing bores at high rpm while tryin to offset spring pressure and torsional twist.

By cutting a way through the cam bearing, one only has a small area that may be outa tolerance instead o the whole bearing..

Remember here we are talkin thousands, not 1/10ths of inches.

White stuff anywhere in the motor usually is water, wether from condensation, or oil contamination, which can be as simple as usin a fuel that has oxegenated suppliments or alcohol as a base. You would be very surprised how many fuels have both.

My engine builder said it's just condensation because when we drained the oil from the pan, it was normal color and didn't show signs of water, but I've had enough problems over the last 2 years with motors that I'm a little paranoid. Hopefully they'll get the issue figured out today or tommorow. My new cam will be here towards the end of the week, so I'm hoping this issue is resolved by then and the motor is ready to receive the new cam, and I can go back to the dyno the following weekend.

Alan

Well, I took the block, crank and cam to a shop down by Indy and instead of finding 1 glaring issue we found several smaller ones and one big one. It seems that the first engine builder didn't check all the main cap clearences. We found the rear main had less than .0005 on the back edge and .001 at the front edge, cap 4 had over .004, cap 3 (thrust) had .0035 and caps 2 and 1 were just over .002. Plus the caps may not have been original to the block. Dennis called me today and said he was checking the cam journals and found a couple that were over .004. So, all in all, it has been a good exercise (expensive but good) as Dennis found the problem with the rear main and was able to correct it. I'm thinking the pump was good all along, but will go ahead and replace it just to be safe!

I'll get this sucker in the truck someday! LOL

Alan

Alan,
Who is working on your engine now??? What is the guy up there charging for dyno ??

Travis

Well not great news but hopefully it will save you in the end. You will get it back together soon enough.

Travis,

I've got Dennis Woody at Woody's Automotive in Thorntown working on it. Super nice guy and VERY knowledgeable on Fords. (That's what he's raced for over 20 years)
He charged me $400 to dyno the first time, and then told me that if I wanted to dyno again after we swapped the cam, then he'd charge me $200 if we did it on Saturday or Sunday.

Alan

Hopefully, now that all the bearing clearances will be right, the oil pressure will be where it ought to be and all will be good! Now I'm kind've happy we had a pressure issue, as I wouldn't have found the rear main cap issue and that could have been expensive to leave as is!

Alan

Been a while since I've posted an update, so here it is! My former engine builder is FIRED and I'm considering legal action. Thought we had the problem fixed once the mains and cam bearing were line honed and proper tolerances were restored. Running the drill on the stand, we could hold 80lbs cold. So, I took it back to the dyno last Saturday to get the tune set with the new cam and things were looking good until the oil temp came up to 125deg. then we were back where we started.
I left the motor there and left instructions with Dennis to check EVERYTHING as I no longer had any confidence in what my former engine builder had done. Tuesday Dennis called with the good news (sic)
Seems like the former builder had ground a flat on all 16 lifters (we're guessing to help oil the cam and bottom of the lifters) and when the lifter was pushed upward, the flat was allowing oil to squeeze past thus robbing pressure. So I says great order a new set of lifters then he say's hold on there's more...... Diamond recommends .005-.0055 clearance on the pistons and my block only has .0025, and why is there titanium locks on the exhaust valves and std ones on the intake? The intake locks are loose as well, and the springs are too lite. All this on top of the earlier findings with the main bore made this a time bomb!

Dang, talk about bad news!!!!! I'm just sooooo glad I decided to dyno this build, as that decision has cost me more money than planned, but saved thousands more, so it is money well spent! So now I'm waiting on Dennis to get the necessary parts and do the necessary machining. He indicated early next week, so hopefully we'll be running again soom.

Alan

You have just stated why we eventually became our own engine builders - we never found a consistant and good builder. And they all have excuses why an engine failed, but never because they screwed up.

You will eventually get to the point where u just get yur machining done to yur specs, n then assemble the motor yurself and then no one to blame cetpin yurself.

Ken, I don't disagree with you and is why I prefer to do things myself, but when it comes to racing motors, I just didn't have the confidence in my abilities (nor the measuring equipment) and figured a guy that does this for a living would know more tricks then I would to make it last. Also, I've only built a few motors in the past and they were basically stock with headers, intake, carb and a little cam, nothing as radical as this. In hind site though, I don't think I could have screwed it up any worse than this guy did. LOL

Alan

well heres what I think on the subject today.

We are hoodwinked about how difficult a race motor is to put together - fact is if the specified clearances are observed during machining - anyoen with decent mech skills can assemble a race motor n dont let anyone tell you different.

You send your crank to be ground to spec, n rods to be honed to your spec, n then include the pistons for the assembly to be balanced, out to be balanced. Send the block out for line hone (specifyin the main clearances) check the deck, and or deck it to yur spec, n thats about it unless ur gonna run some wierd combo for lifters etc.

Bearings only come in the normal sizes unless ur Richard Childress or Roush, so again not rocket science. Yes if yur machinist wasnt listenin u may need to go up or down for bearing sizes but i wouldnt I would take it back n say fix it

The clearances are very straight forward and very easy to check - plastiguage works well if ur not confident with a mike for rods n mains, and a feeler guage for the piston skirts. Ring gap is also easy. Floatin rods n pins are easy. cam assembly is just time n patience n good observation skills. Even head assembly once the machine work is done is a piece of cake. All u need for that is an inside mike n shims, unless again yur doin something wild n wonderful like puttin dodge exhaust valves and chevy intakes in a Ford head.

If your specified clearances are not there take the assembly back n say fix it.

The rest is just slow methodical "CLEAN" assembly that you check three times over.

Basic tools are cheap - a mike set, a degree wheel, a decent torgue wrench, and your diary with everything you want for specs, and what you did and got and when u did it. As yuo check each item off for the third time you will be there, n smilin.

Best of all, it will likely outlast three machine shop motors.

Yes on my first and second motor I was shittin bricks the whole time, but hey those motors are still runnin years n seasons later without a hiccup.


I am sure you have an old motor layin around or enough used pieces to make one up - build it to the best of yur ability n go out n try to wreck it - you will be very surprised and hey it might even last for years like my first motor did - it never did blow up, just slowly lost oil pressure from bearing wear.

That way yur new motor is backup

Ken you have pretty much explained it why i want to build my next engine my self. There is a very reputable Engine builder in town here but one of my friends that races circle track got a engine build buy this guy and it blew up the first night on the track. I plan on getting the machine work done somewhere else and then check it over my self and assemble it and if it blows up then i can blame my self for it.

OK from my stand point ......

I built every motor I ran since I got into pulling. I also blew up every motor I built over the last seven years too.
Am I a engine builder ... NO,, I told myself if this motor don't last the scheduled 5 season with only freshening then I'm done building them myself, and I'll have a Pro build my next one.

I have learned tons from the little mistakes I made during the assembly process over the years. Now I hope I can remember all I learned when and if I build another one.


And Yes I can only point fingers at myself when it blows up.


ShaZam

I hear ya guys. There were 2 reasons I went to a "professional". 1. Didn't have the confidence to build a racing motor myself. 2. Figured a "Pro" would know tricks that I don't to make it last while squeezing every last hp out.

The reason I am so Peeved with this builder is improper or incomplete assembly. I was not upset at the builder when my motor let go last season as crap happens when your pushing something to its limits. But it really upsets me when things like galley plugs are missing, and main clearances are not checked completely and not using titanium locks on all valves when that is what I paid for. Putting a flat on the lifters, well, perhaps that was one of the "tricks" he had that was supposed to improve oiling so I'm not too upset about that. It's this other stuff that has me fired up, what I'd consider "Engine Assembly 101".

Bottom line is I got burned and will have to chalk it up to one of life's lessons. Sorry if I side tracked ya, I just had to vent a little!

Alan

Vent away my good man ! When I first put this motor and truck together. The engine guy I was using cost me a bunch of funds too. The first time we done the motor it lasted 12 minutes and cost me $ 1500 to fix, and it has been down hill every since. I wound spending a total of about $6000 to fix someone elses screw ups. I guess we need to do like Ken said and try an engine ourselves and see how it goes. At least we would be paying for our OWN education.
On the other hand I got my fingers crossed for you and hope things get worked out.

I am sure you have or know where you can get used parts cheap.

For liek a grand you can do a bang up job, and for a wish n by golly you can slap a real junk motor together.

Interestingly enough we tend to really abuse a junk motor, just to see how long it lasts, n good ol Murphy seems to liek that cuz I have never seen one blow up.

BAck when I was a teen and did stupid things like street race hell all we did was take a junkyard engine we paid $50 for put the cam outa the last blowup n go again till the valves floated or til it blew.

The "junk" motor we last ran pullin turned 7400 rpm for a whole season n never blew.

I still say go for it

I've got a complete 460 from a Lincoln sitting in the barn that I bought to have as a spare block. I think I'll go through it for grins and giggles.

Alan

You did say old right? pre 72 ?

put yur old cam in it slightly advanced, n if u don have an intake put a 2" spacer on it, run the biggest holley u can get, crank 36 degrees into it, put one extra qt of oil in it an away u go.

If u really waanna go, pull the heads , remove the exhaust valves n grind the exhaust ports smooth, takin all them lumps n bumps out, n put it back together.

We pulled stock class this way for two years, n top five more than a few times.

Just talked to the new builder and I've got to say I am now glad that we had an oil pressure problem! There have been so many little issues found, that could have become BIG issues if I had ran the motor this summer. So far the list includes; mains not lined honed causing gaps ranging from .000 to .007, cam bore not true causing 2 journals to be large, lifers that had a flat ground on them (the source of the pressure loss) incorrect retainers, incorrect springs, cast iron valve guides starting to transfer material to the valves, and piston bore not large enough. Dennis also cc'd the heads and found they were 80cc's instead of 72. That means I had 13.3:1 compression instead of the 14.7 that I was told, so he took some material off the heads to get the compression up to where it should have been.

While I'm not looking forward to this bill, at least I can have confidence that the motor is assembled correctly, and should last. And I'm hoping that with these changes, the motor will be closer to my goal of 700-725hp. If all goes to plan, he's going to get it finished up today and we'll dyno it tomorrow, and it will be in the truck Saturday. Of course we all know how plans usually go... LOL!

Alan

Alan I thought you were running an old model set of heads ?
I always thought that they were 72cc and explaination as to why they have the larger chambers ? What casting are they ?
We just put the C9VEs on my motor and they milled them .040 so I wonder how much it helped. I was figuring I had about 12.5 to 1 with a flat top.
But anyhow I have my fingers crossed for you and it sounds like you have found enough things to help out after they were fixed. Now how about the dyno numbers from your last test so we can have a graph on your improvements.
Good Luck by the way.

I was so disgusted after the last attempt on the dyno that I didn't bring it with me. We only made 2 pulls, before decideing it was pointless to continue with the oil pressure still not where it should be. With the new cam, the initial pulls showed a 25hp increase, and a 30ft lb increase in torque, so that put it at 665hp.

Alan

I think those are pretty good numbers. You are only 35 away form your 700HP goal.
So tell me about your heads. I don't understand the 80cc thing.

The heads are Dove C's and I've been told they are normally 72-74cc's but due to variations in castings, some are larger which was the case with mine. They were flowed last week and the intakes came in at 358 cfm, so the port work is pretty darn good. Dennis thought he could do a little more to the exhaust ports to get them flowing a little better.

What lift did your heads flow 358 at ??? Which that is pretty darn good in my book as well. Best I can remember my D3s were around 322 cfms @ 650 and the exshaust was 234.
The guy that did mine wasn't an expert on ford heads but he didn't charge like he was either.

Alan: Will your intake fit now that the they machined .040 off the heads?

Draggin, They hit 358 at .750 lift

Digger, when I talked to the builder today, he indicated that the intake should fit with bastardizing it.

Alan

I meant to say the intake should fit without bastardizing it. Sorry

Alan

At the dyno this weekend !