Lately I've been reading a lot on truckpulls.com and there is a lot of diesel against the gassers arguments "who's better". The way I look at it is, hardley any 2 organization's rules are the same. Except there are a couple that seem to always show up in every orgs. rules. And those are regular aspirated engines(carburators only) and engines and manufacture must be the same(ford with a ford engine and chevy with chevy engine and etc..) Almost every diesel that is worth a hoot has to have a turbo or now they have 2 turbos (something I'm not allowed to put on my truck unless I wanted to be in the modified class) And There ain't a manufacture(Ford,GM,Mopar) that can come close to building thier own diesel engine!Some of these people that claim to have blue blood running through thier veins and do truck pulling with a ford truck and an International motor with a turbo. huh, wth. And Dodge with a Cummins,and Chevy with a Duramax(whoever makes that, I think that motor might even be foriegn) Most of these diesels that pull are crew or extended cabs and usually dually, weigh close to 8000#. Diesels cannot pull against a gasser! Its apples and oranges. I will like to see what happens when a diesel wants to compete in a nascar race. I've got a powerstroke myself and love it to tow my gasser pulling truck to the pulls but wouldn't use it to pull with. What do you guys think? I need to post this on truckpulls.com but know I will get my ass kicked.

Here's the deal....

They are different cumbustion engines completely.

To be as fair as possible, I think a couple simples rules should apply:

- No limit on compression ratio
- Diesel can have dual turbo's and injection
- Gasser can have a blower, and injection
- unlimited fuel OK (diesel can use propane injection etc...Gasser can use any race gas, but not alcohol or nitro-methane.
- Truck MUST weigh the same with same wheel base, and non dual rear wheels.
- 7.4 cubic inch limit

I know there are some missing items but this should put them both around 2500 HP right!!!!

This seems to be somewhere along APPLES with APPLES to me.........

What do you all think

A.......
http://www.myspace.com/chevypullin

No limit on compression ratio
- Diesel can have dual turbo's and injection
- Gasser can have a blower, and injection
- unlimited fuel OK (diesel can use propane injection etc...Gasser can use any race gas, but not alcohol or nitro-methane.
- Truck MUST weigh the same with same wheel base, and non dual rear wheels.
- 7.4 cubic inch limit



But I think gasser should be able to run Alcohol.
And the cubic limit should be at least 8.2 Liter.

I'd like to build a 485 or a 501 and put a blower on it with 10.5 Comp. and make 2500 H.P.+ running on Alcohol.


Dan

in our local organization we have a "stock" 5500 lb class.

Normally it is all gassers

However one individual runs a 92 Dodge with a single factory turbo.

On any given day he can win or be second/third - and usually it is his wife in an identical 92 dodge truck with a 440 gasser in it that beats him.

If I could lose a hundred lbs - pretty easy actually, and if they would let me run against the gassers in the local class - I could eat the gassers for breakfast - no contest.

You may argue but I have almost 20 years pullin experience and know what the various truck classes are capable of either by experience or by close scrutiny of the sled results.

I can tell you my "stock" truck never came close to runnin like my diesel does.

I would think that the gas motor would have to run alchol because if they are running a blower, then there would be a LOT of heat generated!

Personally, from what I've seen, I think the diesel's would rule because of the massive amount of torque they generate. They are the only pulling vehicle that I've seen that can shift gears while going down the track!

Alan

Ken: If you lost 100# and they would let you run against the local class, I assume the local class would be a stock class? And the truck you would be using is far from stock if it is the same one you are selling.

These new Diesels are the ones I am talking about with 400+ HP and multiple turbo's from the factory. And they(fair boards and truck pulling organizations) want to throw them into a stock class of gasser trucks that are from the 1970's and 1980's era. Some of these new diesel trucks with there multiple turbos, allison trannies, put a chip in them and they will be competition for the "Shazam's" and "Hors'n Around's". I just don't understand if your a Chevy guy then run a Chevy with a Chevy engine. Now it is a Chevrolet truck with a japanese engine. I don't know what it is coming to?????

n oranges

hmm, my twin turbo truck is a mechanical and very stock VE cummins, no computors - and makes less hp than any of those new twin trucks, before they were chipped, as I suspect I am only makin around 400 hp and about 850 ft lbs at the moment.

The differenc in my truck is I weigh about 3000 lbs less than a new diesel and can place wieght wherever i liek, to advantage. My truck with me in it an a full load of fuel weighs in at 5620 lbs

Average new truck is 7800-8500 lbs and makes around 900 or so ft lbs unchipped.

lb for lb I think a diesel will always win cuz even supercharged, a gasser doesnt make 1000 lbs + of torque until it hits top rpm on a very narrow rpm band, whereas the deisel - any diesel, is makin that and more at 1500 or so rpm

And consequently I can shift 1,2,3,2,1 during a run

- show me any gasser that can shift even one gear?

TAKE THE TURBO COMPLETELY OFF THE DIESEL AND PUT A CARBRUETER......SO WE HAVE APPLES AND APPLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THANKYOU Diesel,, Now we're getting somewhere

it would still win as for example my truck doesnt make boost untill around 2000 rpm, and let me tell you I can wail the tires off n it from a dead stop, or coastin at 15 mph and nail it

once it hits 2000 rpm tho its freight train time - hang on

kinda neat to be at around 30 mph and tear the tires off it if u hit the fuel full throttle

If the turbo is removed from a diesel, then I believe that there would be no question as to who would win. A diesel is building boost from just off idle up through it's RPM range. I've owned both a Ford/Navistar and currently own an 06 Dodge/Cummins and both were lazy at idle and just off idle, but once the boost starts building, then hang on....
So I think it's kind've like cutting the horns off a bull, not near as effective!

Alan

Ken: thats what I am saying, its not fair to have any diesel pickup trucks competing against gasser pickups Or even at the same event. Why can't the diesels do thier own pulls? Why would you even think of going to the local pulls with a diesel and wanting to beat up on the gassers?

I said could not would

question that was posed in this thread was could a diesel beat a supercharged gasser - I said hands down

And I am not sure what diesels u have down there but none that I know of are makin boost off idle. 1500-2000 rpm more like it - but anyways who cares

We do have our own pulls, or local classes, and they are at the same events, cuz people like em.

KEN

You said that some of the factory diesels are putting out over 800 ft/lbs torque from the factory?????

Last I heard they were around 600.......?

A......

Most of our pulls have either dedicated diesel classes (Stock and Extreme) or an Exhibition class that allows them to run against everything over the 6500 lb limit in other classes.

If they are under 6500 lbs, a diesel will run head to head with gassers only if they are the old non turbo setups.

Not tryin to start an argument, but around here we have several 'modified street' gas burners that will run with any street driven diesel, and several that have to be towed in. In my experience the stock or near stock diesels don't have enough grunt to get up on boost and power out in high, or they try low range and can't get any track speed, regardless of make/motor. I have seen this with both a '05 cummins and a duramax of the same year, and both are good friends of mine and they have each tried both. The new diesels are pretty hot, but unless they have several thousand in engine upgrades they can't run with us, and as far as output, the duramax is rated highest with 365 horse and 660 lb ft, not 400+ and 900+.

After doing some research......I found that there were no changes to the sled in our association between the street...Modified street...and diesel class.....

This means that the measurements on the track are all valid comparisons!!!!!

In other words...My 283.5, two pull average, on my last two hooks beats the CHIPPED/HEAVIER diesels that pulled that same day!!!!!!!


YES, my truck is far from stock.....But it only had a LS-6 (70 Chevelle SS) equivelent engine, weights up front (still at least 1000 lighter), and solid rear suspension.

A.........

http://www.myspace.com/chevypullin

We have a diesel class in the KOTTPA, like someone said people like them Should not run together with a gas class, we have some that are spinning theirs above 6000, making some serious power.
Diesel and gas trucks are different, take the turbo off the diesel, just as well take the carb off the gas trucks. Diesels are designed to run with boost, dont forget that most are giving up several cubic inches to their gas counterparts.
I enjoy watching the diesels pull, the only way I can think of that they could fairly combine them with gasoline vehicles is in some kind of open, run what you brung and hope you brung enough class, in which case HP wins! It doesnt care if it came from diesel fuel, gasoline, methanol or rocket fuel.
In the meantime I will pull my 454 two wheel drive and get it there with my cummins, at about 12mpg loaded by the way.

Adrian,

They may not have changed the weight, but did they change how quickly the box comes up?

Alan

OK.....I went to some footage of my first pull in which I did horrible....

I'm assuming the sled box moves forward based on the distance the sled moves, not a timer. Because, in the footage...from the same point in the stands (wife with camera)...the sled box is at the same point on the fairground fence with gassers and diesels.

So to answer your question, YES the box moved at the same rate. I will admit that the diesels took the sled to X footage easier.....But, still ended up no more than 10 feet further than the baddest gasser.


A...........
http://www.myspace.com/chevypullin

Usually, the boxes move up by gearing so the farther the sled goes, the further the weight box travels until it tops out. Based on your visual, I am a little surprised that the diesels don't pull a heavier sled or have the box come up quicker. But, still, 10 ft may as well be a mile.

Alan

The true STOCK gas trucks hate it because they only average around 150 feet......It's the Modified Street guys like me than can hang with the diesels...

But like I said before, I'm pretty far from stock.

So:

- YES a stock diesel will KILL a stock gasser...
- BUT, a diesel weighs more and has a turbo...

SO, if the gasser is allowed weights to even up that category...

AND, engine mods to compensate for the turbo's.......

THEN, I think it's a fair deal....

A......
http://www.myspace.com/chevypullin

Heres a link to a diesel video. Granted these are open class diesels, but I really like watching them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bxrmcRUOsk

OK lets' end this with a real competition.......................



GASSER vs DIESEL...6200 lb weight class...



$100,000.00 to build the baddest truck you can.........

I guarantee the injected, 14-71 blown, 632 cube, gasser is gonna win!!!!!!!!

any arguements?

A.......

I think it would turn into a whoever has the most cubic dollars would win type of thing. I will say Im damn impressed by what can be done with a turbo diesel.


Here is a guy that shows up to most of the pulls we are at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1txirCW7VE&feature=related

Ok Id take that challenge as long only Id be runnin a 540 ih with a p pump and 2 turbos

All other things being equal, he with the most hp wins. I have not idea which is capable of more HP.
I'll go with the cubic dollars!

all things bein equal it is "he who has the most torque wins" lol
HP doesnt move things - torque does and hp is just a function of that

Thats why diesels with thier inverse hp/tq ratios are so much more powerful than a gasser

ie stock 360 cube cummins makes 325/600 @ 1800 rpm and yur stock 360 cube gasser makes like 160/140 @ 3800 ( doin this from memory so dont crucify me if the numbers aint exact)

modified turbo/diesel say 700/1250 @3400
modified unblown gasser at say 900/750 @7600
or blown alcohol at 1450/1200 @ 7800

You will need one hell of a blown gasser motor to keep up with a diesel no matter how you slice it dice it, or argue it

heres one last thought on diesels and why I switched - a gasser motor is barely able to last a season runnin 7800 rpm blasts, and a diesel will run your lifetime except in the pro-mod classes
And when was the last time you could drive your 1000hp/900 ft lb race truck on the street - I drive mine every day

oh and 2-3 mpg vs 17-20 in a diesel while doin it

Tooo much fun stirrin the pot lol

Dude, you cant seperate the two.
Torque= A twisting force
HP=Work done
Torque*RPM/5250=HP
Horsepower is a function of torque and RPM's.
There is an excellent discussion of this on speedtalk, these are not my original ideas. It does offer a good understanding of the relationship between the two.

The way I see it there are two ways to make more hp, increase torque or increase RPM's.

Guy shouldnt shoot his mouth off before he understands the post.
I agree with what you said. Sorry

The thing everyone fails to see here is that engines are only a part of the bigger picture. In other words it does not matter what fuel is in the engine it is just a means of spinning a driveshaft. But for comparison purposes. Here in Indiana, the diesels in our club pull the sled set exactly the same as the prostock trucks( 485, single carb, 31 cepeks, alcohol, majority of them high 800 to low 900 horse). And our diesel class is the same as DHRA's street diesel class and none of them are on the street ever!! These are the 600 plus hp/ 1200 torque trucks you refer to Ken. As for what kinda blower motor truck it would take to get around them, Rick Feicht did a small experiment in PA and invited a couple blower trucks to attend and run his run what ya brung class, that is dominated by some really well prepped trucks gas and diesel and run at 8000 lbs. for all trucks. This certain pull was on a horse track as most fairs are and the blower trucks were going around the turn even after letting off of them just past a full pull. So you can say what you want but there are way to many variables in this diccussion to even merit it for anything other than an argument.

Travis

your still talkin gasser lol

the breakover point for torque over horsepower on a gasser of 5250 is not the same as a diesel. Wrong formula for a diesel.

As to my thoughts - well - like i said - stirrin the pot

As t owhat can be driven on the street in a pro diesel - well i guess us canadian boys are more adventurous cuz them mod boys still drive em on the street - often

Before one goes about accusin one of not understanding the basics - one should make sure they understand the basics - of both diesel n gas

At the end of the day - put yur gasser against a diesel

as i stated before - I played in stock, super stock, local, all in gasser, and i have run in local, pro, an mod diesel

I been truck pullin and once vice pres of an assoc, so know much about various classes, since way back in 91

I do know the difference......
come on down lol

man this is fun

I am not stating one thing or another about either engine. Like I said before an engine is nothing more than a means to turn a driveshaft. They all produce work at different variables. It matters not what kind of fuel you run in them. If we are debating which motor will have better manner for a given performance level yes a diesel will win. But I thought the debate was over which was the better engine for truck pulling??? And the correct answer is both in there respected classes so there is no true way to compare them. If you compare a dollar for dollar, well no a gasser would win hands down. If you compare torque no, because they can both be built for torque. If you compare hp no, because they can both be built for hp. Like I originally said there is no way to compare. So once again this topic is nothing more than a means to argue! And for the record I enjoy both types of pulling, but have been around more alcohol motors than anything so I lean towards them as my preference. And over the last year have been getting an itch for some unknown reason , to play with some of the diesel stuff but not in a truck. Can you say NH TM120??

Travis

I must be missing something on that one.
This formula is not a gas formula, it is the formula for Horsepower.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question381.htm

I started pulling in 91 as well, it is very hard to compare a diesel with a gasser unless its unlimited. So I'm still going with cubic dollars.

The thing is it gets right back to. A diesel is not worth a crap without a turbo(now they think they need 2 turbos). A diesel should not pull at the same event as gassers. Unless they are willing to pull thier turbos off. The audience doesn't know any better. They see this brand new diesel off the showroom floor outpull all the gassers and think that is the greatest thing. In all actulality(spelling) the diesel with the turbos on them should be running in a modified class of gassers if they must be at the same pulling events. And they always are and for some reason the diesel and gassers run together, always in the stock class .And the announcer should be educating the audience but most of the time the announcer doesn't know anything either. Its kind of like going to a classic car show. Some guy spends hundreds of hours putting back together a 57 Chevy and a new Corvette will get the Peoples Choice Award.

The classes should be seperated.

At our local fair, up until this year, they ran the "stock" gassers and "stock" diesels in the same class. Trouble was that most of the gassers that showed up truely were stock or very close to it, and the diesels that showed up were blowin' all kind's of black smoke, so there is no way they were stock. This year they decided to split the classes, and it let the stock gassers compete against each other instead of the "stock" diesels.

Alan