Nan, Liz and Debbie raised some interesting points, which I think deserve a thread of their own.

How did Gage get from the rez to LA? Why do people orphan him or make him a product of an alcoholic home? And how, if at all, does he interact with in the urban Native community? (So few fanfic writers have Johnny socialize with Indian people off the reservation... Why? Do people see the character as disconnected from that aspect of his life?) What do people think cannon says about this? And how does firefighting fit into Native values? Does Johnny face cultural issues -- aside from Chet -- in his House?

FYI some background on LA's Native community (based on Weidel-Orlando's "Indian Country, LA" a study of 1970's and 1990's Native institutions in Los Angeles.):

California does indeed have the largest Native population in the US. Non-California Indian migrations to CA began with Riverside Institute -- a government boarding school for Indians from CA, AZ and NV. The prevailing theory prior to the 1950's (1934 officially, but the '50's practically) was that Indian children needed to be removed from the corrupting, backwards influence of their reservation and families to become educated. So Dinee, Nde (Apache), Tahono'odom, Ute, Hauvsuapi, Hopi, Zuni, and other southwestern tribes children -- particularly from troublemaking families -- were sent to Sherman. Many of these kids stayed in CA. (BTW Sherman Institute is now Sherman High School which provides Title V culturally-based education programs for Orange Country's Native peoples. It is a far cry from the forced boarding school that it was 150 years ago.)

Meanwhile, Southern California Indians lived in traditional communities, which had often been engulfed by the dominant culture settlement shortly after Spanish settlers began arriving and building near the mission churches. When Anglo-Americans arrived they also settled in the Spanish towns and often drew no distinction between the Spanish and Indian communities. California Native communities had their legal status initially defined by Spanish Court law and not American law, resulting in a different status for many tribes. So in CA Indian communities were not uprooted and relocated away from whites but instead buried in Mexican/Spanish neighborhoods, unseen but still strong.

Then in the 30's many Indian people from OK joined the dust bowl migrations to LA. Large numbers of Kiowas, Choctaws, Creeks, Cherokees, and Seminole moved to CA. The Civilized Tribes, in particular, transplanted entire communities and their social institutions to LA. Most of the Indian churches -- like those in Bell Garden, Southgate and Compton -- are Choctaw Baptist institutions with Choctaw style 5th Sunday hymn sings and feeds. And the Southern plains people like the Kiowa brought the NAC and southern style powwow clubs to LA.

Beginning during WWII, the BIA began to encourage people to join the wartime economy by moving to the city and taking jobs. Oakland, LA, Seattle and Sacramento were popular destinations in the west and Minneapolis, Boston, Chicago and Cleveland in the east. Large urban Indian communities grew in LA and Oakland.

This program was formalized in the 1950's when the BIA in its infinite and ever-changing wisdom decided to solve the "Indian problem" by offering tribes the choice of either Termination --staying on the rez with no services and a loss of what limited trust protections are on the land -- or taking Relocation to the cities. Theoretically, Relocation (always said with caps in the Indian community) was to provide job training and transition people into the non-Indian economy. In reality it only served to highlight just how poor reservation schools were. Many people ended up becoming the least educated and least equipped of the urban poor. From this turbulent influx of people arose some of the most effective Indian Rights advocates and Red Power activists.

During the 60's a fundamental shift in Indian Country occurred. The majority of Indians lived in urban areas. Indian country became Indian urban neighborhoods. The locus of the urban Indian community was not family and geographic community but institutions like the Indian churches, the powwow clubs, and the Indian centers. For many urban people, particularly mixed bloods Indianess is defined by family and institutional participation.

During the '70's still flush with Great Society money there were numerous Native churches, community centers, job training programs, drug treatment centers, and two free clinics (one in Compton, a stone's throw from Carson). There were powwow clubs, churches, political action committees and newspapers. UCLA acquired a worldwide reputation for its Native American studies programs. LA Unified hired Indian culture and language instructors for Title V programs. The fledging repatriation movement began in the legal dept at UCLA,IIRC. There was even an acting school for Natives.

Well, I think fandom tends to go to extremes in depicting John's Native background, but the reasons may be widely divergent. Some would be unable to determine John's heritage, others would not have the knowledge to write it correctly. Many would take their cues from the show, which rarely delved into John's heritage in specifics.

I remember reading that the show's writers tried to depict John as if Randy was an actual firefighter/paramedic and Randy tended to not like to focus on his Native Background which is why it was essentially dropped from the series. In fact, from some interviews I read, he didn't even realize that he was part Native American until he was 15! I'm not certain I can accept that considering how "in" it was to be part or full Native American in the 60s among the young.

As to how the various writers depict John and his heritage, I'm very open minded. We are all using the series as a jumping off point. While I tend to like those stories firmly connected to Canon, I have enjoyed greatly those stories that I would consider AU. I look for a certain logic in the jump-off of ideas and the ability to write and write well.

You are a writer who makes me think. I may not always agree with your interpretation of our boys, but I still enjoy the read, with the added plus of learning something new almost everytime I read a story by you.

RM talks about not knowing till he was 15, to me that's not hard to believe. I was 16 before I found out and my mother was outraged that I did. It may have been "in" in the 60's but my mother was a product of the 40's and it wasn't an in thing then. Her side of the family went to great lengths to hide their Native background. To this day she leaves the room when I bring up the subject. I can't speak for RM but for myself it was an uncomfortable subject for along time. From a family POV it was shameful and from my friends it was neat.

Well, I can understand family reactions. The Blackfoot bloodline was in my mother's side of the family, no problems there. They were all cool with it. My paternal grandmother, on the other hand, also hated it when I would talk about my heritage. It might have to do with lots of things in her life. She was born in Oklahoma Territory. My dad was adopted and there were rumors that he had Indian blood (if you saw him, you could believe it easily).
But the difference here is that RM's father was full-blood. It wasn't a question of some "bad blood" in the family. Of course, it might actually be like some fan stories say, the problems of being accepted by the father's family and the mother's family due to the mix of blood. Who knows.

I have heard a number of people say they didn't know, that it was hidden. I have often marveled at the effort that must be involved. It'd be dang hard to hide the 'skins at the family get togethers, ayyeee. And how do you conceal the things that come down, the practices and beliefs that aren't like the other people around you? What do you do when your children ask why they don't do the same as other folks?

I know it's easier to stay hidden in the city. No one expects you to still be around and if you're i'eska, they don't know who you are. Of course if you fit the dominant culture's idea of the Native phenotype, then you learn about driving while Indian. (Safety tip: never drive through small east Texas towns in a car with a "You're on Indian Land" sticker holding on the bumper, until you are conducting a first person survey of field sobriety test methods...) The city provides good camouflage. I've seen sweat lodge fire pits in the shadow of industrial parks and doings in suburban basements, invisible unless you know. Still there comes a moment when you are hopelessly out of step....

Gak! I'm babbling.

As for RM, recall that even in the 70's the Indian actor label was a kiss of death unless you liked non-speaking roles in Westerns.

Rose, I can't tell you how my family did it, because I don't know. I do know some were able to hide it because their skin tone was lighter and they had assimilated into the dominat culture. There are tribal nations that had some who were lighter in skin tone. The Mandan and the Cherokee to name a few. For others I think it would have been more difficult.
RM's family may have gotten around the subject because they moved frequently and /or the ties to the rest of the family were broken. It's a subject he doesn't elaborate on. The fact the he did Rain Dance shows some reconnection.

<<And how, if at all, does he interact with in the urban Native community? (So few fanfic writers have Johnny socialize with Indian people off the reservation... Why? Do people see the character as disconnected from that aspect of his life?) What do people think cannon says about this? And how does firefighting fit into Native values? Does Johnny face cultural issues -- aside from Chet -- in his House? >>


First of all, let me say that I am very upset with myself. This is my second attempt at posting a response to this subject, having LOST the first one. Which I put my soul into, and it had everything I wanted to say. Now I'll be lucky if I can put half of my thoughts back on here. So please forgive me if it sounds a bit choppy and doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

Anyway, regarding the above post, I've always wondered about this and would like to think about it more. I find it VERY interesting, having wondered even since childhood.
I always wondered if say, when he was out at the store or just anywhere in public, if other Natives reacted to him and he to them. Did he live in an area of town where other Natives resided? Did he hang out with others of his heritage too?
Also, remember when that Native boy on the show was hit by a car (?) and broke his arm, losing his dog "Feather" in the process? Did he and his dad feel any recognition or kinship upon seeing Johnny, and in turn Johnny feeling the same toward them?

Ever since seeing how Morton interacted with that one black kid on the show, I started wondering how Marco probably fit in with the Mexican population of CA and Johnny with other Indian people. Marco always seemed to have such a wonderful rich family life, I always wondered if he lived in a Mexican neighborhood with or near lots of relatives. Always wondered if he and Johnny might've even shared a bit of kinship themselves, seeing as how they were of the 'minority' back then. Maybe they even hung out on occasion, who knows?

I also didn't know it was 'popular' to be part or full Native American in the 60s, as Liz stated. Interesting! I remember reading in those magazines, as a child, that randy's dad was "100% full blooded Seminole Indian". And I was like yes, okay cool for him, just like it was for me to have a dad that was 100% full blooded Italian. Granted, not the same in some ways, but I was ten, and that's just how I saw it. But I didn't realize the idea of what it must've meant to be 100%, instead of part or some or way back in the bloodlines. I was just a kid and didn't know what the big deal was...but reading what people have to say here, it must've been something!
I can remember being in grade school and ridiculed for having tanned skin and black wavy hair, kids called me all sorts of creative names. For decades I HATED being Italian, and rebelled against all that it stood for. It's only now that I'm starting to embrace my own heritage because it is ME and it's wonderful. And the only thing that made it ugly in my mind was the opinions of some small-minded ignorant children when my heart was at its purest and most innocent. But I'm digressing here, ain't I?

At any rate, it's sad that people can't just be proud of who they are, it's ridiculous. And the Native Americans were HERE FIRST, so it really blows to think they would have had to hide who they were. That's like going over to Italy and saying "okay people, you all suck and we're in charge. You should be ashamed of your dark skin and hair and traditions and should do it OUR way now." Insane.

People are beautiful, all different types. I know my views might be cliche with some and unpopular with others, but I really truly feel this way. even the so-called 'ugliest' person has such beauty if you look at them. Maybe that's the artist in me, I dunno. and then, I ramble, I'm sorry...

Rose you stated "being Indian means white people impose their stereotypes on you. They know all about what Indians are like adn pigeonhole you right out of existence
ah, stereotypes, so here is where I get to ask YOU...do Indians have stereotypes for white folks? That's interesting too! Can you elaborate...or better yet, will you?

"The fact that [RM] did the Rain Dance shows some reconnection." Just that thought in itself brings a beaming smile to my face.

Again, I apologize for the rambling choppiness of my post, like I said it's just what I can remember here and there from my other first one! But the same thoughts are there, and I welcome any and all opinions!

<<I also didn't know it was 'popular' to be part or full Native American in the 60s, as Liz stated. Interesting! I remember reading in those magazines, as a child, that randy's dad was "100% full blooded Seminole Indian". And I was like yes, okay cool for him, just like it was for me to have a dad that was 100% full blooded Italian. Granted, not the same in some ways, but I was ten, and that's just how I saw it. But I didn't realize the idea of what it must've meant to be 100%, instead of part or some or way back in the bloodlines. I was just a kid and didn't know what the big deal was...but reading what people have to say here, it must've been something!>>

See? I KNEW I'd forget something. What my point was with this subject was this: I'm part Italian and I LOOK it, and so was viewed negatively in the school I attended (very few kids looked like me). Would I also be viewed equally as negatively by the full-Italian community, because I am only 3/4, and not full-Italian? Just wondering now, what really would happen!

I have midwestern roots, so I am familiar with views on racial differences, but have spent most of my life as a Southern Californian in the LA area. I don't think we saw an emphasis in the show on Johnny's heritage for several reasons -- one may have been personal on RMs part, another may have had to do with Hollywood employment -- but also because life here is different than in many other parts of the country when it comes to "minorities." Being white here IS a minority, as far as numbers go. It's not a big deal to be of a race other than Caucasian -- it's the norm.

That's why I, as a fan fic writer, don't delve into the subject as part of Johnny's daily life and work. I don't think it's the SoCal experience. Most of those who come here from other countries make an effort to assimilate quickly and don't isolate themselves into groups. Even though we have large ethnic communities (Vietnamese for example) they still get into the mainstream of education and economy without hesitation. I tend to believe that's what most Native Americans have done as well. I could, of course, be wrong about that.

I would venture to guess, too, that most E! fic writers aren't Native American, and I for one, tend not to write subjects about which I know nothing. That's not to say it hasn't appeared in some of my stories, but it's not been the focus in them. I try to stick to what I know -- firefighting things, medical things, and the show itself. (Ah, yes, that robotic canon thing again, but doggone it, don't interpret that to mean I don't creatively step outside the damned work environment.) If I do want to step outside my own area of knowledge, I will do a lot of research and get a lot of input before venturing into sensitive, unknown territory. And, I consider writing stories having to do with ethnic backgrounds of a sensitive nature.

I digressed.

This isn't to say we don't have our issues, but in general, Southern Californians are more liberal and tolerant of various cultures -- simply because the population is such a mixture of them. Ignore the Hollywood version of SoCal as the playground of the rich and famous (and predominantly white.) It isn't that way. Our population is heavily Hispanic and Asian, and as we've noted in past posts, LA has the highest proportion of Native Americans of any city in the US. We resemble New York as a melting pot, but their diversity is or was vastly European in nature; ours covers the rest of the world. We -- and I use that broadly -- truly don't look at those around us in terms of race -- and I use that generally -- or, we'd be doing nothing but swiveling heads.

So... that's why I don't usually mention Johnny's race as part of my stories. Heritage is of private importance, but it's not much of a blip on the radar scene (as a friend of mine said) in terms of daily, ordinary life living and working in LA.

"The uncertainties that a minority member can feel in an otherwise homogenous group... are not only the result of outright resentment, but also of not sharing important ritualized behavior. This cycle feeds on itself: as women and men, blacks and whites fail to communicate with each other, each blames the other for not trying hard enough to understand and connect. This is difficult to change. Interacting with people like oneself, who understand and use the same conversation ritual, is more fun. It is easier."
-Caroline Paul, SFFD, from Fighting Fire

I feel this is the great unspoken, 'dirty' little secret of our society. Race -- and to a lesser degree class and gender -- are such hot buttons in America that we can't admit such differences and affinities. In the last forty years, the dominant culture in America has made an enormous effort to restructure itself, to address historic wrongs, and erase racial/cultural lines. (And while it is easy when you are tripped up by one of the lingering remnants to discount the magnitude of the effort, focus only on what is left to do, and instead say nothing has changed, it is not completely fair.) As a society we have been conditioned to almost ignore the effects of culture, education and language in structuring social interaction. We feel a discomfort and aversion to admitting it takes less effort to be around people who share our manners, mores, and modes of communication. And if you have had the vast bulk of your social interaction occur within a context of like educated, like enculturated individuals, then it is hard to see these forces or acknowledge their strength.

The dominant group is ashamed of what it perceives as hidden prejudice and when it sees the same behavior from the minority group, perceives reverse-prejudice. But, when you are part of a minor group, it is almost relaxing to spend time away from the stress of constantly remembering dominant culture rules and modes, and constantly fearing the misunderstandings and backlashes that come from failure to share the same rituals of interaction.

<<I always wondered if say, when he was out at the store or just anywhere in public, if other Natives reacted to him and he to them.>>

LOL, I have a friend who called it NADAR -- the ability to find all Natives in a 5 mile radius and know all their family gossip in about 10 mins flat.

I think the degree to which this occurred depends on, among other things, the level of dominant culture socialization. Based on the backstory given in the series this is one of the confusing areas: Gage is from the rez where Native enculturation is somewhat unavoidable, yet he seems very comfortable in the dominant culture, if you call being "some kind of a nut" comfortable... This is the domain of fanfic writers.

<<I also didn't know it was 'popular' to be part or full Native American in the 60s, as Liz stated.>>

This popularity is a regional thing. It has never been a particularly positive thing to be Native in a reservation border town, where the history of interaction is darker and bloodier on both sides. It is my experience that this popularity is inversely related to the reality of the preconceptions held. I strongly suspect (in the '70's) Johnny is viewed far more favorably in LA and in his uniform, than he would be walking the streets of Whiteclay or Gallup or Rapid. LA is more diverse, however I contend in view of the terrible riots that have occured there in the 60's and again in the 90's you can't say it is a race/class blind city.

<<snip a huge discussion of history here:) >>

One really off topic comment I'd like to make here. It is far to easy to strip history from its context and view it with modern eyes. To do so is to lose sight of the forces that made good people do things that we now view as horrors. Do so is to lose the lessons of history. This works both ways and contributes to the discussion below.

<<Rose you stated "being Indian means white people impose their stereotypes on you. They know all about what Indians are like and pigeonhole you right out of existence" ah, stereotypes, so here is where I get to ask YOU...do Indians have stereotypes for white folks? That's interesting too! Can you elaborate...or better yet, will you?>>

First I'd like to say this comment was part of a private conversations and is somewhat out context, so I apologize if it has offended.

Now I know this will offend:) It is taboo in American society to discuss such things and worse to admit that there are grains of truth that cause some stereotypes. I'd rather gnaw my own limb off than discuss this, however...

Understand these perceptions, like those of all humans, are based on personal history and cultural misunderstanding. One common stereotype is to see "white" people as being culture vultures, having no culture of their own they wander around taking bits and pieces without permission to fill their own emptiness. Another is to see them as greedy lairs always ready to take what little Native people have left. There are others which are darker and far from appropriate to discuss in this forum.

Peace Pipe actually traffics in these stereotypes on both sides. I hear in Johnny's comebacks to Chet some of the same preconceptions that get in under that skin when you are raised in a Native community.

So I've had a painful discussion here, your turn Ria:) You tell me how you see this things in the character Gage. I need my Johnny fix, we haven't discussed him in ages, LOL.

Okay if we all wish to be truely honest with ourselves we all admit to having prejudices against some group or thing. Yes, we have all give in to some stereotype.
It's called being human.
Now, before you get all twisted and bps start rising let me explain.
As far as prejudice. I work with a diverse population. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly in everyone. If I'm walking down the street at night and a man approaches I will clutch my purse, get my keys between my fingers and cross the street. And I do this in any situation regardless of color. So I am prejudice against possibly putting myself in dangerous situations. Darn right.
I am at my most prejudicial against any adult who mistreats kids. I have a feeling most of you share that prejudice.
Now, about stereotypes. Most are based bias (see prejudice) or --personally I hate to admit this - a truth. I'm adopted. I've got no clue as to my true cultural roots. My parents are 100% Italian. Italian stereotypes--talk with hands---I'm guilty. Talk to loudly-guilty. Do I put out enough food to feed an army and tell everyone to eat more--GUILTY.
Now, there are a ton of very negative stereotypes about Italians out there--right RIA. But every imigrant group that came into the USA experienced negative stereotyping by the imigrants who were already here. What better way to elevate yourself than to knock others. What better way to try to keep your group seperate and secure than to instill fear about others. Just open a history book this has been going on since the dawn of time.
Do we accept it? Do we allow it? NO. But recognizing our faults and trying to do better is the best we can do.

I have always felt that the American Indians have been through far more than many other groups. After all extermination was the actually goal. Only recently, and still very spartenly are people becoming aware of the wonderful depth of the culture of the American Indian. I personally believe the fanfic which explores it (accurately) is opening minds.
Randy didn't want it in E. He wanted Johnny seperate from Randy (he's stated this). Was he hiding? Are you kidding? With a name like Mantooth. He himself said he fought all his kidhood to defend it. And he wouldn't change it when it was suggested to him upon becoming an actor. He has wonderful pics of himself on his site attending an American Indian event. He's proud of his heritage I'm sure. Unfortunately in many areas where there is little left of the American Indian population it has become a curiosity. And who wants to be look at as a curiosity.
I'm sorry for the length and spelling errors. After all I'm only human.

?????

<<I always wondered if say, when he was out at the store or just anywhere in public, if other Natives reacted to him and he to them.>>
<LOL, I have a friend who called it NADAR -- the ability to find all Natives in a 5 mile radius and know all their family gossip in about 10 mins flat.>

LOL that's interesting, I never thought of that. I'm terrible at this then - I can never guess at anyone's heritage, especially based on their outward appearance. Dunno if it's related subject matter, but I once had a friend who had "Gaydar"...I'll let you assume the obvious there.
So basically, in regards to "Nadar", the answer to my above question is probably yes?

<I think the degree to which this occurred depends on, among other things, the level of dominant culture socialization. Based on the backstory given in the series this is one of the confusing areas: Gage is from the rez where Native enculturation is somewhat unavoidable, yet he seems very comfortable in the dominant culture, if you call being "some kind of a nut" comfortable... This is the domain of fanfic writers.>

Ahah, this I know well from lots of the stories out there. This is one of the reasons that I love to read your stories, Rose. You delve into a part of Johnny that few have tried and succeeded, IMO. You do well to round out Johnny's character and background in a most believable way, whereas otherwise we're sorta left to wonder this and that. Like someone else stated in their post, most writers tend to write what they know, and not many would have the knowledge and capacity to write about Johnny's heritage, or what they imagine it to be - at least with the degree of realism and accuracy as you have done. At any rate, I know I don't have to remind you again how much I enjoy your version of Johnny and his world!

<<I also didn't know it was 'popular' to be part or full Native American in the 60s, as Liz stated.>>
<This popularity is a regional thing. It has never been a particularly positive thing to be Native in a reservation border town, where the history of interaction is darker and bloodier on both sides. It is my experience that this popularity is inversely related to the reality of the preconceptions held. I strongly suspect (in the '70's) Johnny is viewed far more favorably in LA and in his uniform, than he would be walking the streets of Whiteclay or Gallup or Rapid. LA is more diverse, however I contend in view of the terrible riots that have occured there in the 60's and again in the 90's you can't say it is a race/class blind city.>

AH, I see! So in Johnny's every day job, people are probably less likely to show any prejudices they may have...whereas if he were in civilian clothes (and in those places you named), he might have more of a problem! And yet still, even with the uniform, he might have encountered some forms of prejudice that we just never realized or anticipated...interesting fic idea (that I'm sure might've been touched on already).

<One really off topic comment I'd like to make here. It is far to easy to strip history from its context and view it with modern eyes. To do so is to lose sight of the forces that made good people do things that we now view as horrors. Do so is to lose the lessons of history. This works both ways and contributes to the discussion below.>

And that is something I never realized til you pointed it out. It makes a lot of sense, and caused me to think even more (which may or may not be a good thing). It's really easy to pass judgment on people in history, cuz as you say, we're used to looking at it with our eyes from today, which is a totally different mindset. It's easy to say - and totally believe it with your heart at the time - "I could never be like that" or "I would never do that." But one could, and one most probably would.
But who knows, in eons to come, society then may be looking at our ways and thinking the same thing.

<<Rose you stated "being Indian means white people impose their stereotypes on you. They know all about what Indians are like and pigeonhole you right out of existence" ah, stereotypes, so here is where I get to ask YOU...do Indians have stereotypes for white folks? That's interesting too! Can you elaborate...or better yet, will you?>>
<First I'd like to say this comment was part of a private conversations and is somewhat out context, so I apologize if it has offended.>

AND oops, ::blush:: I'm terribly sorry...didn't realize that I'd directly quoted someone so bluntly. I apologize if it offended anyone or embarrassed Rose!

<Now I know this will offend:) It is taboo in American society to discuss such things and worse to admit that there are grains of truth that cause some stereotypes. I'd rather gnaw my own limb off than discuss this, however...>

Rose, ya gotta go a LONG way to offend me. And it's too late for you to try, cuz I already like ya! hehehe Don't mind, I respect others' opinions for what they are, even if they don't agree with mine. It's all good.

<Understand these perceptions, like those of all humans, are based on personal history and cultural misunderstanding. One common stereotype is to see "white" people as being culture vultures, having no culture of their own they wander around taking bits and pieces without permission to fill their own emptiness. Another is to see them as greedy lairs always ready to take what little Native people have left. There are others which are darker and far from appropriate to discuss in this forum.>

I see, and thanx for lots of insight. I can so see your point to a lot of this...speaking for myself only (and hoping I can make sense), I find myself unable to identify with any one culture, while still attempting to fit into what is the everyday 'American' culture. Yes I was born here, but I feel a connection with nothing in particular, just a pull here and there to this and that, whatever I'm attracted to. I don't necessarily fit in (on the inside) and yet I fit in everywhere (on the outside). In this respect, I feel a curiosity about a lot of other cultures, even though I know I can never be a part of them. I do have respect for everyone's cultures and religions, and stand in amazement at the immensity of what I do not know. I guess what I'm saying is, while not wanting to impose my beliefs on anyone else and similarly not wanting to suck the life out of someone else's beliefs, I do embrace any knowledge I can regarding other cultures and beliefs. People are incredible and there's so much out there to learn and appreciate!

<Peace Pipe actually traffics in these stereotypes on both sides. I hear in Johnny's comebacks to Chet some of the same preconceptions that get in under that skin when you are raised in a Native community.>

Ah, I think I see what you mean (if memory serves, otherwise I'll have to rewatch the epp). He's got an angry edge to his voice and you can tell how bitter he is too. Plus the 'joke' of him clutching a knife tightly while arguing with Chet, and having Roy make him put it down seems very powerful to me. I know Johnny's reaction feeds into Chet's antagonism, cuz the more it seems to bother Johnny, the more Chet lets it fly. And seeing this epp again after so many years, I was shocked and disappointed at first when Roy joined in the 'fun'. Then when I thought about it, it strangely didn't surprise me for a lotta reasons (the times, them being guys, etc.). It seemed to put an immediate wall between what you think is a growing partnership between the two paramedics. I often wonder if that wall was ever breached, or torn down...even after that 'ending', where Johnny poked fun at his own heritage. That was a strange ending, IMO.

<So I've had a painful discussion here, your turn Ria:) You tell me how you see this things in the character Gage. I need my Johnny fix, we haven't discussed him in ages, LOL.>

Ahh, I'm sorry Rose. Last thing I wanted to do was have a friend hurt. BUT I agree, I share your need for a major Johnny fix, and I say "LET THE DISCUSSIONS CONTINUE!!!!" :D

ria

<<I find myself unable to identify with any one culture, while still attempting to fit into what is the everyday 'American' culture.>>

Well, I was lurking on this conversation, and, I might add, learning a great deal about other cultures that I admittedly cannot relate with. Nothing I say is an attack on anyone or their beliefs, but rather just my perspective...for what it's worth. <g>

I hear people from this country say all the time that they cannot relate to any "cultures" because, like many Americans, their heritage is a mixture of many cultures, or they feel their culture is isolated or different. My response to this is, isn't "American" a culture in itself? Somewhere along the way, with the mixture of many different cultures from all over the world, including Native American culture, all of us, as Americans, have developed a culture we can embrace as our own. We have mannerisms, practices, traditions, and the sort, that are very common to all of us. We are a culture...every one of us that lives here.

Am I saying that it's wrong to embrace the cultures of our anscestors, or the diverse heritage of our people? No way! *she says, proudly displaying the crest of the MacDonalds of the Highlands of Scotland, while passing a fond thought onto her Grandpa Niemeyer from Germany <g>* but in the course of understanding and realizing who we are, I think we all must also remember that we are a part of the American culture too.

Perhaps I am naive and too optomistic, but I'd like to think that this sort of common ground and understanding could someday help all of us could get past the stereotypes and recognize each other for who we truly are...not just in America, but in the world.

Cheryl

A number of times in this conversation, I have heard the term assimilation. This is an incredibly value laden and largely negative word in Native communities. Assimilation was the 19th century humanitarian's solution to "the Indian problem," offered as a carrot to the War Departments stick of annihilation. (Mental gymnastics alert as I try to contort this line of discourse back toward Gage, LOL)

Understand John Gage's generation would have known their grandparent's and parent's stories of forced assimilation at the hands of an educational system founded by a Civil War veteran, Capt. Pratt, who famously said "Kill the Indian and save the man." Gage would have heard of the corporal punishment that was used to break such uncivilized habits as speaking Native languages or praying in the Indian way, and of the little defenseless children that were taken by the Indian police from their homes, sent to schools hundreds of miles from home, and isolated there for months or years. His parents would have known what it was like to be stripped of all external markers of Indian identity, forcibly baptized, housed in huge barracks, fed alien foods, given little love.... He might have been shown the Indian school cemeteries that hold the remains of some of the hundreds of little ones who died of illness and loneliness in these places. (Although, the system officially renounced these methods 1934, a physicist friend of mine was beaten in 1971 for speaking Dineh on school grounds. The damage done by these schools to Native social structure is almost incalculable and lies at the root of many social ills in modern Native communities. But that is another post.)

Despite the pressure to be "little brown Americans," Johnny's grandfather/s and grandmother/s (exact number and race to determined by your particular swim stroke in the fanfic gene pool) would have been parents themselves when they were granted citizenship -- in 1924 -- in the country which they and their ancestors had been born in and fought to defend. And they would also have known state and federal suppression of and interference in Native religious practice, until the Native American Religious Freedom Act of 1978 (yes 1978) overturned the Federal Religious Crimes Act of 1883 and various state laws banning many Native religious acts, including pilgrimage to sacred sites, Sundancing, Kinaalda's....

In short the larger American culture has been forced down Indian people's throats. Living in it with a reasonable degree of acceptance, accommodation, even enjoyment (Mozart, Cherry Garica, Thai food, manicotti, Monet, the word processor... are good things) is a non-negotiable reality. Yet a little resentment and not a little feeling of loss remains.

This colors the perception of and reaction to the dominant culture. And it influenced methods of inter-generation al cultural transmission. It tended to provoke two reactions: don't burden your kids with weight of language and custom that will impede their progress; treat every surviving piece of culture as a treasure and urge your children to take only what they need from the dominant culture (or as the AIMer's said when I was a kid "Better Red than White and Dead." No, they weren't known for tact either.) The later really came to the fore during the '60's and '70's with melding of Native intellectual traditions and modern scholarly ideas of ethnicity. My grandfather's generation was much less assimilated but much less reactive against the dominant culture, while mine has the education and skills to blend in, yet generally has an extremely negative reaction to the deculturation implied by assimilation.

The first mode seems immensely popular with fanfic writers. Mostly because it allows you to stay with writing what you know, but also because it is romantically tragic -- very Faulker-esque. (I actually started writing Gage this way and just drowned in the logistics required.) The second mode is problematic in that it fails to fit with what people perceive as Gage's seeming assimilation. Yet the real roots of Native culture are deep and abiding. Indian identity isn't in the externals of dress and ritual, it is in the patterns of kinship, manners, values, community participation, language use.... These transcend appearance (and are the real base of NADAR). You'd be surprised how much traditional activity occurs in urban Native communities. In a very real way Native identity doesn't really exist without community, therefore urban Indians find each other and form support and kin networks.

Yikes! Just looked at how much of your time I've wasted.

Toksa,
Rose

PS Thank you very much for your kind words Ria:)

Well stated, Rose. While I obviously cannot relate to the pain felt by your anscestors, I cannot relate to the pain felt by mine either. The German peasants that starved under ruthless monarchies in Germany, or the Highland Scots that were massacared by time and again. Especially the Donalds (Macdonalds) who were...shall we say...prolific? My own grandmother believed that she was Irish as a child because her parents fled to Ireland to escape the summary execution of anyone with the name MacDonald, MacDowell or McDonnell (all part of the same clan), be they man, woman or child, before they came to America.

That is uncomprehensible to me, being born in America and never being subject to such brutalities.

Do I hate English people now? No. They didn't do anything to me. I can't blame them for the actions of their anscestors, which they have no control over. Otherwise the hate, killing and brutality never ends. The clan wars of Scotland are proof of that.

I, in no way condone what happened to Native American poeple in the past. It's shameful and just plain wrong in every way. I guess thats why I never have written that aspect of Johnny Gage. I don't feel that I could do any of it justice, or even begin to understand the pain and resentment.

I guess my question would be, when does the blaming end? I guess I don't see myself as an immigrant, or as a non-native to this country. I was born here, and so were my parents. I feel that this country is my home, as much as it is anyone else's, regardless of our diverse anscestries. I wish we could just all look at each other that way, and share that common bond.

Ack...now who's rambling??? Did any of that make any sense whatsoever? <g>
Cheryl

Rose, I think I understood about half of what you said (that's a reflection on me, not you, trust me.) I'm starting to feel like a real slime-ball every time you use the phrase "dominant culture." Don't take that to mean I'm taking any offense, because I'm not. It's just that I have never considered myself from a "culture" other than the human race. Naive and simplistic, probably. Sorry.

I think this thread started with a question why fan fic writers don't usually write the JG character with Indian friends and participating in Indian customs. It makes me curious, so let me ask some things about your view of the character of John Gage.

He was raised on a reservation, that much the show established, though to what age isn't clear. His comments in Peace Pipe make me believe without a doubt that in his youth, he was part of the Indian culture. But, it was also clear he was half-white. It seems to me you tend to discount that influence (that of the dominant culture) in his life, and tend to see him with very strong ties to his Native American heritage.

Is that because that is your background, and so that's how you relate to him? I think I'm trying to say that I see the white half of him, because that's my background, and relate to that, but acknowledge that his "other" half was important to him. It doesn't make either one of us right, it's just our perspective based on our own life experience where matters of race are concerned.

My questions are not argumentative -- I'm really trying to understand some things.

Is it common for one of dual heritage to relate more strongly to the... non-dominant culture? Can that be partly a product of environment? What if he left the reservation, or traveled off it, in his teen years to attend, and apparently do well (track star, newspaper editor) at, a "white" high school? What would that say about him and how (culturally speaking) he was raised?

Is it possible to grow up on a reservation, and still be strongly influenced by the other/white half of your heritgage? From his "my parents weren't that indifferent" remark, I take it to mean both parents played a major, positive role in his life. Would a woman, living with her husband and son on a reservation, necessarily give up "her" heritage to do that? Could the answer to that vary, depending on what part of the country we're talking about? I guess I tend to think it has to do more with the woman herself, but even in the 70s, we all know we still had a long way to go in the gender wars. JG loved to chase women, but he sure seemed respectful of them, too, which leads me to believe that his mother had his respect (ie, she wasn't a subservient type, but rather an influential type.)

Don't you think this is why the character of John Gage is so popular in fan fiction -- that he does come from a complex background, and is the most complex personality on the show? The Johnny/John persona that's been mentioned. (well, okay, he's both smart and sweetly naive, cute and sexy, and all man, so that doesn't hurt his popularity either.)

I'm interested in your take, and any one else's, on these things, both for my own knowledge, and for my story.

Many of the things Rose described in her explanation of how JG's ancestors would've been treated in the name of assimilation are reminsicent of the stories my mom told me growing up. Native American? No. Her parents were Polish immigrants and my mom, born in 1923, grew up with Polish as her primary language until she started school. In school she and her siblings were forbidden to speak Polish. When the Depression hit, my mom's dad, a baker, left town to try and find work in a bigger city. My mom's mother became ill and had a hard time caring for her 6 children (my mom was 3rd oldest). They stood in line at the soup kitchen where each child got a small cup of pea soup ... they were starving, but they weren't allowed to eat it. They had to take it home so their mom could put it in a pot and add water and whatever else she might have on hand to stretch it out so it would last longer. Eventually the state moved in and took my mom and her brothers and sisters away from their mom and made them "wards of the state". They were all sent to live with various foster families. Sometimes my mom did not know where her brothers were for years at a time and she rarely had any contact with her mother. She never saw her dad again until she was an adult. Most of the time she was with her sisters but not always. They were all bounced around from one home to another. They had to work to earn their keep and from the age of 8 my mom had to clean other peoples' houses, wash and iron their clothes, cook their meals, and take care of their children. Once her younger sister who was 5 was having severe stomach pains. My mom spoke to her in Polish in an attempt to comfort her. The "foster mother" overheard this and took my mom to the backyard and whipped her on the back of the legs with a switch for speaking Polish. She has lots of stories like that. Even as an older teenager she suffered from abuse. She wanted to go to college to be a nurse or a teacher, but her social worker enrolled her against her wishes in art school because she was also a good artist. When one of her foster parents gave her a suitcase as a graduation present, the social worker stole it and claimed it was hers, and gave my mom an old beat up trunk to take to college. Anyway I guess I wanted to make the point that people of many ethnic backgrounds were mistreated, partly because of their culture and partly because of the times. I could do another whole paragraph on my dad (don't worry, I won't), who was an immigrant to the U.S. at the age of 5. However I will mention that as soon as he became an adult, he and his brother both had their last name legally changed because of the discrimination they would've faced from their ethnic-sounding last name. Perhaps most notable is the fact that neither of my parents let poverty or hardship hold them back. They both enlisted in the military in WWII (my mom could make her own decisions at age 21 and joined the Marines), and my dad joined the Army. My dad served in the South Pacific for 2 years and rose to the rank of Captain by the end of the war. After the war they both worked their way through college. My mom got a Master's Degree in Psychology and my dad graduated from Harvard Law School.

Becca

First, let's kick around the linguistic peccadillo: The sociologist's dominant culture is the best I could come up with. "White" isn't right. Wasicu the Lakhota the word used for "whitemen" has historically included the black buffalo soldiers, the Mexican adventurers that came North with DeSoto et al, and the Chinese who worked for the railroads, but wasicu carries a heavy negative load. (Only after WWI did you begin to hear ha sapa (lit. skin black) and the like.) Anglo isn't right either. American doesn't work either because most Indian people consider themselves to be Americans.

<<Anyway I guess I wanted to make the point that people of many ethnic backgrounds were mistreated, partly because of their culture and partly because of the times. >>

Now, I'm going to sound a bit defensive here... I was recounting historical events -- events of which many are ignorant -- and explaining how these are transmitted to current generations and one person's interpretation of how these effect some Native people's reactions. (Gak! Narrative voice police, phasers to kill and get that sentence.) I was not blaming anyone or denying the historical or current suffering anyone in this forum. I am no fan of the popular revisionist histories -- like Dances with Wolves -- that depict the dominant culture in the most negative light. With the exception of the Hilters, history consists of groups of people doing what they believe to be right, just with differing concepts of exactly what that is. The 500 plus years of conflict between the people of the New World and the Old were largely inevitable and, with a few rare exceptions, seldom the result of true malicious effort on either side.

There are times -- like listening to BC Smith combine the traditional singing of Ulali with the western symphonic tradition, watch the little blond mixed-blood children dance at a powwow, or looking at Fritz Shoulder or TC Cannon's paintings -- when I am both deeply saddened over what could have been, and hopeful about the potential for what could be. If we cannot talk about how we each view the world without being told our worldviews are wrong, then there is no hope. I honestly haven't meant impugn anyone's history or ethos or rethorical style. Nor do I with what I am going to say now.

There is a fundamental metaphor in American culture -- our societal creation myth, to borrow (and mangle) an anthropological model. Already, I think I have been told variations of this story three times during this conversation. The prototype is the story of the Pilgrims: a group/individual suffers religious/economic/social/racial/cultural persecution, they are forced to flee to America. But, they put that behind them and through hard work, clean living (*wink*, if we can't smile during this it's gonna be heavy going, LOL), and strength of individual will they succeed. Thereby, they create a shining future for themselves and their children. It is a beautiful story, a true story -- a story of which to be proud. It is the root of the American way and American greatness. It was part of how we as a society responded to everything from treaty rights, to education, to 9-11.

But, it is a story that doesn't have much mileage down on the rez. Now, dissociating from this myth -- myth here is used in the anthropological sense as in a story that reveals and defines a culture, not an untrue story -- very un-American thing to do. It provokes a powerful response -- almost an intellectual flag burning. It is seen as not wanting to get along, not wanting to assimilate. And not wanting to assimilate is seen as saying American values aren't good enough for us, as opposed to saying our base story of exposure to American culture different.

First, as I tried to explain, the act of choosing to transform from whatever X you were before to an American or hyphenated American is missing from our family histories. This changes the tone of the narrative from one of triumph to one of surrender before greater forces. Also part of this myth is the forgetting of the past; this reinventing of self is a common thread in American experience. Any kind of recounting of unpleasant history -- especially if it involves the dominant culture -- is seen as wallowing in the past. In Native culture to forget the past is to cease to exist. Each person is part of a chain stretching back, you are who you are and experience what you do, because of what your parents, grandparents etc were/are and do/did. (Am I getting lost in translation here?) This conflicts strongly with American and Judeo/Christian ideas individual responsibility and self-determination.

Secondly, Indian people hear this story all the time. I choose to believe, most people mean it as a means of encouragement and as a method of creating common ground. However, sometimes it means -- to put it in its the most bald language -- "quit whining and pull yourself up by your bootstraps." Misunderstandings over treaty rights and myths about "Indian money" and false beliefs of untaxed, scholarship Indians often play into this argument. For people living on public assistance in near third world conditions -- no matter the culture -- this seems like people are blaming you for lacking boots to have the bootstraps with which to pull yourself up. (Not that I am saying all Indian people live this way, but a good portion do.)

Having a different conception of this fundamental metaphor of dominant society has an effect on how you view that society. Does this make any sense? (Right now I could use my old students, at least snoring let you know how you were doing working the room wink.)

Anyway, I have worked on this post for 2 hours, time off for Gage:)

Toksa,
Rose

Pardon me for wading right in-- I just relocated this message board after wrongly assuming it was dead. I know there are several other Lindas contributing here, so I'm sorry for adding to the confusion.

Ecstatic to see serious E! discussion is alive and well.

>Having a different conception of this fundamental >metaphor of dominant society has an effect on how >you view that society. Does this make any sense?

Not to me, sorry.

As an English-ancestored, DAR eligible, midwestern white girl, I'm sure any self-respecting sociologist would put me smack in the middle of the Dominant Culture Preferred Seating Area.

So why don't I feel dominant? On the contrary, I feel marginalized and ignored, in terms of my citizenship in this country, and I have felt that way ever since I was old enough to vote.

It makes me grind my teeth to hear that I'm "dominant", because it implies some sort of great power that I certainly don't have. Either that, or it means that I'm a complete loser, because how could someone from the "Dominant Culture" and all the myriad advantages that brings NOT be incredibly wealthy and powerful? (Note, please, that I didn't say that Rose made me feel that way-- just the words "dominant culture", and it's MY tooth grinding, thus MY problem, so I'm not pointing any fingers, just trying (still, after all these years) to understand the Johnny/Native American thing.

Thank god for dental insurance.

<<So why don't I feel dominant?
<snip> It makes me grind my teeth to hear that I'm "dominant", because it implies some sort of great power that I certainly don't have. Either that, or it means that I'm a complete loser, because how could someone from the "Dominant Culture" and all the myriad advantages that brings NOT be incredibly wealthy and powerful?>>

This is how I feel too, and I'm not sure I'll be making any sense with this post. My feelings are often rambling and it usually takes a post from someone else's words to make me say "YEAH, that's what I mean!
For the most part, I don't understand the labels put on people, because it's obvious that quite a lot of us don't even feel the way the labels point us out to be. It's hard for me to even respond to a lot of the points being made here (which are very good points, but mostly news to me and I'm learning a LOT), because I've been pretty much just ignorant of a lot of stuff my whole life.
Throughout my life, I haven't always been 'heard' and still have trouble being listened to, so for a lot of subjects I simply don't have an opinion, either cuz I don't understand a lot of stuff, or else I'm just tired of being ignored so I quit bothering to form an opinion (figuring it wouldn't be taken into account). I've always felt like people viewed me as a little girl, as someone who doesn't know what she's talking about - and wouldn't be listened to anyway.
My main goals have always been just to get through daily life, school, chores, etc., with the minimum of problems. For the most part I've been a middle of the road person, living suburban life per my parents' choice, and I've been pretty lucky as far as having food and clothing and housing. But by no means am I wealthy nor powerful...I can't even get people to listen to me or take me seriously sometimes. It's also hard to put my thoughts and feelings into words (spoken and now lately, written), so I tend to avoid getting into lengthy discussions (although I find them fascinating and love to read them).
So I guess what I'm saying with all this babbling is that I wasn't even aware that I'm probably included in this "Dominant Culture". I feel like such an unimportant piece of society, and certainly not rich or powerful. And I suspect I'm not alone in my feelings either. In fact, I have a real feeling that the way we (as the 'Dom Culture') are viewed and the way we really feel inside are two different things. It's kinda like seeing the outside of something and not realizing that the inside isn't what it seems to be.
I dunno, sometimes I feel like a great big zero.

Ria -

You make some very good points in your posts. Please don't ever feel otherwise. I've always taken the dominant culture and other like arguments to simply be the only justification that one or a group of people can legitimize how they feel - whether it's slighted, ignored, put upon or any number of emotions. Race has & will always be a highly subjective emotional topic along with race relations & what one group/nationality has supposedly done to another throught the years. Many of the original settlers were victims of religious persecution in their own countries. Many were gold diggers. Many were just ordinary people looking for a better life. Have wrongs been done to a variety of nationalities throughout history? Of course - clear on back through Biblical times. Should such wrongs continue to be the argument for someone's luck or non-luck in life? Only if they allow it to be.

Now before you all jump down my throat, hear this. All of us do with our lives the best that we see/think we can. Some do way better and some way worse than others. To blame the anglo-saxon for the continued problems plaguing some Native American Reservations is like continuing to blame the Germans and/or Arabs for the Jewish problems, or the white American for the African-American issues. It is simply a convenient argument that enflames many.

And so at the risk of starting yet another riot - Hasn't this subject been beaten enough already? There must be other things E! & JG that could be discussed.

The anonymous AS writes:


And so at the risk of starting yet another riot - Hasn't this subject been beaten enough already? There must be other things E! & JG that could be discussed.



Yet another riot? I think the last time you posted, I mentioned that this is a civil board. Haven't seen a riot yet here, unless someone intends to start one. I'd like to invite you to join in our discussions, rather than being our visiting lecturer every now and then. Maybe you'll find it a welcome relief from those places where riots apparently occur.

Nan

PS - So, what would you like to discuss?

From Dr. Deborah Carr's Lecture Notes for Sociology 101 at Rutgers:

Dominant Culture -- "The culture of the most powerful group in society. It is the cultural form that receives the most support from major institutions and that constitutes the major belief system. Importantly, it need not reflect the statistical majority; rather it reflects those with the most social and cultural power."

According to the sociologists, being a member of the dominant culture does not correspond to individual wealth or individual power. But, you are in tune with most components of the overarching cultural motif, that provides the basis of a society's mores and the source of the major modes of intellectual inquiry and instruction. (Note that dominant in this context means prevalent.) Nor does it guarantee a trouble free life or a personal sense of empowerment.

However, I will use non-Indian in the future. Is this acceptible?

"AS": I AM NOT BLAMING ANYONE! (Maybe in all caps it will be more visible this time.) Unless you count saying that historical events have effected and continue to effect how Native people perceive and relate to the larger society. Nor have I told anyone their perception of the American system is wrong. What I have said is a segment of society does not share that perception. Nor am I attacking Ria. Further, I am not whining.

>From Dr. Deborah Carr's Lecture Notes for Sociology >101 at Rutgers:

I won't bother pulling my Sociology 101 notes from Dr. ... uh... can't remember his name... at Purdue because it's been way too long. The only thing I can remember from that class without the notes is "Humans have no instincts." I remember really liking that notion, but the rest of the class argued with the prof. for an hour.

>But, you are in tune with most components of the >overarching cultural motif, that provides the basis >of a society's mores and the source of the major >modes of intellectual inquiry and instruction.

I am, even if I don't feel like I am? I guess the overriding concern here for me is, who gets to decide who's a member of the dominant culture, and what is the deciding factor? Is it who one's parents were? Where one grew up? Skin color? Sexual orientation? I honestly don't know.

Is a Native American always exempt from the dominant culture label, because there are certainly a number of them with impeccable academic credentials, suggesting at least a passing familiarity with "the source of the major modes of intellectual inquiry and instruction"?

>However, I will use non-Indian in the future. Is >this acceptible?

I've already stated that my discomfort with the phrase dominant culture is my problem, so please don't change terms on my account.

Linda

I believe this topic has been just about exhausted but....
Where I am I being a white female is definately not the "dominate" culture. Yet, if I drove a couple of hours I would be. Sometimes I feel the "dominate" culture shifts depending on whose in power or screams the loudest.

If only the "dominate culture" could be all of us looking out for the all of us.

I also must come to the defense of AS. I don't share Nan's description of her as a "visiting lecturer". AS made valid points as did everyone else in the thread. As a matter of fact some of the "lectures" in this thread were highly informative and educational. So, continue to debate, lecture, inform, and educate. But remember above all else treat others the way you wish to be treated. After all this discussion about the drawbacks brought on by "dominant cultures"--I feel we should refrain from exerting our dominance merely because someone has a different perspective.

After all isn't that what started our country down this road so many years ago--the inability to accept the perspective of other peoples.

Thank you for your time.
Lindasqd51

<<I am, even if I don't feel like I am? I guess the overriding concern here for me is, who gets to decide who's a member of the dominant culture, and what is the deciding factor? Is it who one's parents were? Where one grew up? Skin color? Sexual orientation? I honestly don't know.>>

I have always believed (much to the chagrin of my soc. of religion prof) the term is an abstraction, dealing with the apparatus of a society large enough to have subcultures and liminal cultures. Prevalent cultural motifs are necessary for a complex, diverse to society to have enough cohesion to survive. On a level all subcultures within a group share at least some components of the dominant culture. With the possible exception of Rush Limbaugh and William Buckley wink no one professes to be part of the dominant culture, yet the structures do exist. If fundamental values in your culture run counter to those of the dominant culture you will immediately discover there are consequences to running afoul of them. (If this gets weird, serious discussion is very difficult when the neighbor's cat is sitting on the monitor playing catch the cursor.)

I would submit any white woman or woman of color in America is not part of the dominant culture. (Female status in the dominant culture is much worst than it was in much of pre-contact Native North America.) Although, I think our granddaughters will be, because of the shifts in the societal fabric.

<<Is a Native American always exempt from the dominant culture label, because there are certainly a number of them with impeccable academic credentials, suggesting at least a passing familiarity with "the source of the major modes of intellectual inquiry and instruction"?>>

No. Assimilation, acculturation, and enculturation of dominant forms are realities. Except for certain ideas about the cultural property that do not have their roots in Hellenistic Greece or English Common Law, I conduct most discussions with a lifetime the Socratic method and academic rhetoric behind me. But, what I was trying to convey in at least one point in this conversation, it is possible to live a life that "looks' fully assimilated and still experience significant discord (at least on a spiritual and intellectual level) with larger society.

To turn this back to Gage... I could easily see him participating in one of more Native groups (My personal favorites are have him volunteer at the American Indian Free Clinic and cruising at the occasional powwow. He is eminently snagable: employed, no ex, his own teeth, no fry-bread-spread.... "Take me home in your one-eyed Ford. Hey-ayye weye weyo ye.") Although this is a sensitive area, which I have mixed feelings about dealing with in something as frivolous as fanfic, I could see him smudging or even participating in traditional healing. However these are deeply private activities that I don't see him sharing readily. In short having that mixture of urban live and traditional practice that exists in most Native people's lives.

Toksa,
Rose

Rose wrote:

>But, what I was trying to convey in at least one >point in this conversation, it is possible to live a >life that "looks' fully assimilated and still >experience significant discord (at least on a >spiritual and intellectual level) with larger >society.

Now this I can understand, and wholeheartedly agree with.

>I would submit any white woman or woman of color in >America is not part of the dominant culture. (Female >status in the dominant culture is much worst than it >was in much of pre-contact Native North America.) >Although, I think our granddaughters will be, >because of the shifts in the societal fabric.

This too! I agree that our granddaughters might finally crash the ol' boys network once and for all-- I see some incredibly strong young women where I work, and they certainly have the smarts and determination to do it.

>However these are deeply private activities that I >don't see him sharing readily.

All the more reason for the wasicu <waving hello> to leave that area well alone. I would feel like I was invading someone's privacy if I did the research necessary to convincingly portray Johnnny taking part in Native American culture.

Linda

LindaSquad51 writes:

I also must come to the defense of AS. I don't share Nan's description of her as a "visiting lecturer". AS made valid points as did everyone else in the thread. As a matter of fact some of the "lectures" in this thread were highly informative and educational. So, continue to debate, lecture, inform, and educate
I feel we should refrain from exerting our dominance merely because someone has a different perspective.

After all isn't that what started our country down this road so many years ago--the inability to accept the perspective of other peoples.

Thank you for your time.
Lindasqd51


Linda -- What do you think about the following post in light of what you just said? I invited AS to join our discussion, not to ridicule. It's ironic (checking my definition as I write) because the bulk of the thread was about my challenging Rose's perceptions, and her responses to those challenges without either one of us taking offense, or uproaring, as AS states. I hope it made her happy to laugh at our expense.


AS writes:

Most of you all take yourselves so imperiously seriously that you make me laugh & give me my comic relief for the day. It's hysterical to read all of your quotes on sociology notes & diatribes against cultures & the BIA and any other number of things in several hundred to a thousand word posts. But the second someone questions the logic or the right of another to be the sole authority or to offer a different opinion you would think that it the martians had landed for the uproar.

AS

Okay, first I will not add fuel to this fire. I merely wanted to point out that some of the conversations were getting heavy handed. It may not have been intended, but sitting here reading I definately got the feeling from some posts that things were getting overheated.

Now, I think we all can admit that many people on this board are VERY strong personalities. I include myself in that group. Kathy P can attest to this.

I think AS is not just referring to things on this thread. There have been other threads where I've noticed some verbal sparring between boards members -and sometimes it is over the top. Including the person who took AS initials and well if read recent posts you know what I'm talking about.

I myself was misquoted on another thread. And that person kept misquoting me--over and over--despite my attempts to clear up the misconception. I still habor some disgust over that persons inability to read and comprehend at the same time.

So, let's make one thing clear.

WE LOVE E.
Native cultures have been underapprecated.
Many members of this thread no how to stick up for what they believe in.
So, now I'm passing the peace pipe.

Lindasqd51

I meant to include the name and addy thing but forgot to in my last post.
Lindasqd51

(The anonymous AS writes)


hhhmmmm - Never realized that the use of initials meant anonymous....according to the dictionary anonymous as an adjective is 1.Having an unknown or unacknowledged name. 2. Havin an unknown or withheld authorship or age....My initials (for the purposes of most of the lists) are my identity. Much in the same way that many use a different e-mail for list mail & other fiction based things. Maybe you need to rethink the meaning of anonymous.....


(From Dr. Deborah Carr's Lecture Notes for Sociology 101 at Rutgers:
It is the cultural form that receives the most support from major institutions)

Well if this is the case, then one only needs to look at major federal and private grant applications from various non-profit agencies to know that the dominant culture over the last 30 - 40 years has been every other culture in this country except the priviledged white, anglos, whatever....Take for example the societal makeup of one of the largest refugee dropoffs in this country. Lincoln Nebraska over the last 40 years has seen a major shift in it's population trends. In the 70's, there was a large influx of Vietnamese refugees, then in the late 70's & 80's, the Hispanic population boomed. Now in the 90's and beyond, it is the Arabic population. With these boons in refugees comes the growth of many federal and private grant programs to support them. It would appear that the institutional support, if it goes to the dominant culture, does not go where everyone thinks.

Rose - I don't believe I ever stated that I thought you were blaming anyone. I believe I made a generalization that said to continue to blame current problems on past grievances was simply provided a crutch which in many instances is way worse than pointing fingers. I also never suggested that you were whining or attacking Ria. I pointed out that Ria made some very valid points and said that she shouldn't feel otherwise because IN HER POST SHE POINTED OUT THAT SHE SOMETIMES FEELS LIKE SHE'S RAMBLING...(SO DO CAPS MAKE THAT POINT ANY CLEARER?)


Nan has asked what the 'visiting lecturer' would like to discuss. How about something that doesn't enrage people to the point where some feel they need to get defensive & others feel that they need to shove their opinions at everyone or others feel a fear to posts because they believe they will get 'yelled' at. I mean this IS a fictional TV character....

Sorry, the visiting lecturer almost had me sawing zzzzzzz... but I did get to the end of the post.

Take your own advice. If its just a friggin TV show, then why are you getting all hot and bothered?

It seems that "protests too much" is in order here.

So, play nicer. It's cause less of an uproar.

I for one am not hot & bothered....Most of you all take yourselves so imperiously seriously that you make me laugh & give me my comic relief for the day. It's hysterical to read all of your quotes on sociology notes & diatribes against cultures & the BIA and any other number of things in several hundred to a thousand word posts. But the second someone questions the logic or the right of another to be the sole authority or to offer a different opinion you would think that it the martians had landed for the uproar.

OHH & by the way, if you are seriously sawing ZZZZZ's maybe you need to move up your bedtime & get some extra rest.....

For someone who sits back and enjoys the entertainment.... Seems to take things Way too seriously. Take your own advice. Stop the madness and realize that it's ONLY a friggin TV show and the people on the other side of the monitor are REAL people with divergent opinions. Not someone to lecture at, telling them their opinions are shit because they don't jive with yours, then high tail it outta town.

Sheesh you sound like... well, I won't sully this arena with THAT person's name. Besides, you're MUCH more intelligent then, um, "it" is.

Play nicer, join in with lively discourse (that means you can offer a difference OF opinion) and people will respect you. Dis them and they won't. Simple as that.

????huh??? wrote:

>Nan has asked what the 'visiting lecturer' would >like to discuss. How about something that doesn't >enrage people to the point where some feel they need >to get defensive & others feel that they need to >shove their opinions at everyone or others feel a >fear to posts because they believe they will >get 'yelled' at. I mean this IS a fictional TV >character....

So what's wrong with a little dissent? I marvel at the number of groups, boards, etc. which have been created in the name of "Oh, so-and-so was SO mean to me, so I'm going to go make my OWN playground where everybody HAS to place NICE."

And the level of conversation in those places rarely reaches above "Wasn't Nuisance cool?" "Yeah, cool."

I think the issue we've been discussing (and I feel guilty for coming late to the forum, and drawing the discussion out longer than it probably would have lasted, thus exasperating some folks who were waiting for it to die) is a key one in the fandom.

I freely admit I avoid the "Johnny as N.A." issue in my stories because I'm a big, yella chicken. I'd get it wrong, and folks would be justified in chewin' on my butt because of it. Easier to ignore it, as most of the series does. Doesn't mean that people who know what they're talking about shouldn't seize it and run with it.

Linda

I think you're shouting at the wind, Rose....

Do you think Coyote is having a good time with us?

All of your posts have certainly been one heck of a window into your soul.... Heh. Heh. I bet you've got a lot of ancestors lookin' mighty pleased. I'd give you an appropriate salutation but my resident Black Foot only knows appropriate curse words.... LOL Not salutations.

And, the sisters Navajo are home in their respective beds.

Me? I can't even speak English.

Um, sincere salutations?

<<heritgage>> Ten points, Nan, for the best typo and Freudian slip of the thread! Take a bow:)

<<But, it was also clear he was half-white. It seems to me you tend to discount that influence (that of the dominant culture) in his life, and tend to see him with very strong ties to his Native American heritage.>>

Oh goody this is going to be fun!

First understand that as racist as it sounds (and is) fraction of blood are important in Indian Country. The BIA regulations and later the IRA governments and constitutions imposed on us in 1934 to replace direct BIA control of reservation affairs, and the fallout of the Dawes Act, changed Indian perceptions of identity. Each tribe can determine the blood quanta required for membership and the BIA determines has an overall standard of 1/8, IIRC, for the issuance of CDIB. Having the enrollment card and/or CDIB governs whether you are a real USDA inspected Indian and whether for example: you can sell your art work as Indian made, inherit your ancestor's allotment, vote in tribal elections, receive tribal services, can belong to the NAC (this has to do with federal drug laws and not NAC membership requirements) or fall under the 4371 additional laws and statutes that apply only to Indians (most of which are NOT a plus). Now there are political reasons and historical reasons people don't have a card.

(Just a comment: A lot of people in the larger society see the card as a pass to various moneys, scholarships, health services, etc. This by and large isn't the case. If you have an enrollment card (but not a CDIB) you are entitled to the services your tribe provides for all its members -- services that are in many cases provisions of treaties made to reach a peace and acquire tribal lands. But a card doesn't, for example, exempt you from federal income taxes, nor from state (unless it is on money earned on a Dawes allotment.) Most of the checks poor Indian people get are state and federal assistance like any other poor person in the US, or rental or mineral rights payments for use of their allotment land. As for scholarships, yeah, tribes have them, so does my church, the Italian-American association, the Shriners, and for that matter a group of Texas oilmen who fund chemical researchers....)

"I belong to the lost tribe of mixed bloods, that hodgepodge amalgam of hue and cry that defies easy placement. When the DNA of my various ancestors ... combined to form me, the result was not some genteel, undecipherable puree that comes from a Cuisinart. You know what the say on the side of the Bisquick box, under the instructions for pancakes? Mix with fork. Leave lumps. That's me."
--Louise Erdrich (Assinabe) & Micheal Dorris (Modoc) Crown of Colomubus

I write Gage within the societal framework of 1960's and 1970's Pine Ridge. There is on every rez I have ever been on, a large group of mixed-bloods (in rez parlance this means people of Indian ancestry who are oriented more strongly to the dominant culture than Indian culture). These are the descendants of French and Scots traders, Irish railroaders, lonely Swedish and German farmers, and such. Their ancestors by virtue of being bilingual -- and usually able to read and write -- were the interpreters, Indian police, and storekeepers in the early reservation days. Because these people had the skills needed to assume a more successful economic role, than their buffalo hunter kin, they made a modest living during the starving years that occurred after 1883 abrogation of the treaty of 1867. Ultimately they formed the basis of a reservation elite, who had jobs and food, when their less acculturated kin didn't. This caused jealousy.

Because of this history, the mixed-bloods were socially isolated. They intermarried with one another. There are people who are half-white, who have never met any of their 4 non-Indian great-grandparents. This is the world in which I have placed Gage and his family. (By the way, this is a world which is becoming more traditional in its orientation rather than less.)

Now, while the Indians back in the districts may view these mixed bloods has not practicing tradition, compared to suburban America, their lifestyle is mostly Indian with a dash of rural mid-western ranch life thrown in for good measure. But, this sub-culture developed in the matrix of rez life, which at least in 20th century Pine Ridge wasn't much like the mainstream dominant culture. There are countless nuances of behavior and family structure which are Lakhota.

<<Is it possible to grow up on a reservation, and still be strongly influenced by the other/white half of your heritgage? From his "my parents weren't that indifferent" remark, I take it to mean both parents played a major, positive role in his life. Would a woman, living with her husband and son on a reservation, necessarily give up "her" heritage to do that?>>

"She believed reservation life was out of balance; here everything that was trivial took an inordinate amount of time, while the momentous things occurred with obscene rapidity."
--Susan Powers (Hunkpapaya Lakhota) The Grass Dancer

Even the "white" people who live on the rez in intimate contact with Lakhota life are reverse acculturated. Indian culture, manners, mysticism, mythology, even body language sinks in. I've had Jesuit priests who've spent their entire adult lives on the rez set off the NADAR, LOL. If the non-Indian is able to stick it out, they will have to take up a participating place in Lakhota kinship structure. So much of Lakhota identity is within kinship obligations that the person is effectively absorbed.

But even if Johnny's Indian parent had died, if his non-Indian parent had stayed on the rez, relatives would have stepped in -- one of the fundamental values of Lakhota life is taking care of your own. Johnny would have lived surrounded by the stories, manners, language, and traditions, and that leaves a mark.

There is a continuum of behaviors you learn to draw on when living on the rez -- Indian at one end, dominant culture on the other. You slip back at forth as the situation demands and in your private life, you live somewhere in between. You get plenty chance to learn about the dominant culture: TV, text books, music, anthros, college students on church work projects, priests, missionaries, Peace Corp types, German tourists, and all the non-Indians living on the rez in BIA compounds of middle-class suburban housing. (There's a country club in Martin SD in the middle of the "ceeded" portion of the rez.)

I see a lot of this in Gage. The facility with which he switches behavior to accomodate situtations is part street medic/part i'eksa cultural code-switching.

<<Is it common for one of dual heritage to relate more strongly to the... non-dominant culture? Can that be partly a product of environment? What if he left the reservation, or traveled off it, in his teen years to attend, and apparently do well (track star, newspaper editor) at, a "white" high school? What would that say about him and how (culturally speaking) he was raised?>>

Ahh the Gil dilemma, LOL.

Sure. But it think that would be geographically and age dependent. It would depend on distance from the rez and Gage's ability to blend, which seems to be pretty good, LOL.

Sherman Alexie has a line in one of his novels "You aren't a real Indian unless you wanted not to be one." I think there is a world of social commentary in that statement. There is a point in growing up with Native culture when you would like to escape -- poverty, being different, having the burden of history and culture, the isolation, social ills, the shame, the anger.... Everyone I know has gone through this at some point.

"Dispatch to Ruddy."
"Let me guess, Geradine, drunks?"
"No, it was called in as a drunken brawl. That's different enit."
"Yeah, Geradine, real different."
--Adrian Paul and Chris Erye, Skins.

There are very good reasons to want to leave. There is a love hate relationship with the rez in Indian culture. It is the homeland revered ancestors fought and died for. It is beautiful land; it is home. It is a safe haven from the stresses of living in the alien city. It is the land of language, family and religion. It is a place to go to heal. It is a land with a poisonous burden of social disorder, cultural disintegration, family disintegration and substance abuse. People who live on my rez have a 15 year shorter life span than other Americans, 25 times the rate of teen suicide, and some unique and gruesome methods of suicide by substance abuse (like drinking filtered Lysol mixed with diet soda to kill the taste). Leaving is hard, staying is hard. Living in a cycle of coming and going is not uncommon.

<<Don't you think this is why the character of John Gage is so popular in fan fiction -- that he does come from a complex background, and is the most complex personality on the show?>>

Not to mention giving an incredible hormonal rush, LOL.

Honestly, at over 1500 words for this post and close to a 1000 for the other, I've run out of umph... I'll get to points I missed tomorrow, LOL

Toksa,
Rose

Man, if the people who put down fandom could only "listen" into this conversation thread, would they be confused!

I guess I'm torn about a lot of what is being said about culture and assimiliation (and the comparison of native culture with that of the immigrants). I was raised in the white culture with a strong respect for my Blackfoot heritage. Unfortunately, like Chet, most of my knowledge was/is from books as my great-great-grandmother chose to move with her white husband and had very little, if any, contact with her family. Ultimately my great-grandfather moved to New York City from Kansas and he chose to drop all contact with his family, for whatever reason.

Blaming your current problems/hassles/condition on what happened to your ancestors can be a convenient crutch, yet it is also true that, in certain situations, it DOES affect your life. I think that Natives have a harder time of it because the rez system still exists, the BIA and the PTB still act as if Native Americans are slightly retarded children who can't take care of themselves, yet get annoyed and, even vindictive if they try to take control of their lives (i.e., Chief Philip in Philadelphia, Mississippi, who fought to bring education and jobs to the Choctaw reservation and ultimately brought in a casino against government wishes; by the way, unlike many of the so-called Indian casinos, Philip had active control of what was and wasn't done with everything involved with the complex).

I'm rambling, forgive me, I've been hard at work outside today and it has been 98 degrees with 99 percent humidity, so I may be a little loopy (watch the comments, folks <g>). What IS my point? I guess it is that, in regards to Johnny and his background, all viewpoints are acceptable. It is fiction and we are supposing things based on what we see and what our own background is. I learn so much from both the various fanfics and, lately, from this message board. Doesn't mean I agree with everything said, and some times my view changes daily.

I've been reading through these messages and been hesitant to say anything brcause being Canadian we have a different attitude to assimilation. I am a multiculturalist and proud of it. I also live in a region where native culture is of somewhat greater importance because of the proportion of people of aboriginal heritage.
Yes, Rose is right about a lot of the discrimination against natives and metis(our terminalogy for people of mixed race). I don't really feel that it is the people's fault if they have difficulty breaking from the cycle of poverty. We had similiar experiences with native residental schools, and it is pretty heartbreaking to see a grown man cry when he discusses the multiple abuses he went through at these schools. It's going to take time but it is kind of fun watching natives stand up for their rights; many provincial governments are becoming sorry that they didn't deal fairly in the past with different nations. It's fun to watch them get roasted with land claim disputes.
Aboriginal culture is becoming more and more respected with regards to our institutions and it's about time.
Sadly, there is a lot more work to be done. Life expectancy for an aboriginal person is under 50, and I have a couple of family friends that didn't even make it that far.
The worst thing as far as I am concerned is paternalism which is the pravalent problem here in Canada. It's time for autonomy for native bands.
One little item I just have to share that is cheerful for those who like to see justice. In Alberta, a lot of the bands were hustled onto marginal land(had to save the good stuff for the white folks). Fifty years later oil was discovered in Alberta and guess who was sitting on the prime land?
I really enjoy reading Rose's stories but personally could not write from that perspective because I'm not of native descent and I hate messing around with people's heritage.
Best wishes from Cree country.

Fay, I'm glad you decided not to be hesitant. I enjoyed your post and learned another something I didn't know. We tend to think only in terms of our own country and history sometimes, and it's a good reminder that some basic issues exist, no matter where we go, or what nationality or culture we are.

I've asked a lot of questions because I wanted answers, and Rose has given me many (she's one of the few people who can write more words than me when trying to make a point) -- from her perspective. That's all any of us can do, and I respect her viewpoint, and know it for what it is. One person's viewpoint. I don't think she's trying to convert me,(LOL - that would be a job!) she's just sharing information I requested. I find I can disagree (and I often do) without it becoming an issue between us, because we are both modern day, intelligent women from two vastly different backgrounds, who happen to share a common love for a thiry-some year old TV show, and one character in particular.

My apolgies to any of those reading these posts for apparently beating a subject to death.

<<I find I can disagree (and I often do) without it becoming an issue between us, because we are both modern day, intelligent women from two vastly different backgrounds, who happen to share a common love for a thiry-some year old TV show, and one character in particular.>>


Nan, you are so right! It's wonderful that so many people with so many different backgrounds can come together and share their insights in and intelligent manner!

I've been very pleased to see the different opinions from Rose and others on a very complex topic. Nan, your questions were great and Rose, your answers and perspective on the topic was very insightful. They've helped me understand a little more of the issue from a different perspective than my own.

There are always things that all of us will agree to disagree on, but its great that most of us can discuss such difficult and sometimes emotional topics intelligently and rationally without blasting or lecturing to each other.

Thank you for your perspective both on and off the message board, Rose!
Cheryl

<<We had similiar experiences with native residental schools, and it is pretty heartbreaking to see a grown man cry when he discusses the multiple abuses he went through at these schools. >>

Canada seems to be further along in acknowledging and addressing to problem. The pain and fear that these school contributes to the mixed messages about education as both a means to success and mechanism of the conqueror. One of my grandfather's sisters hung herself in school, when I got my degrees he couldn't even come into the school buildings and sat in the car while I graduated.

<<The worst thing as far as I am concerned is paternalism which is the pravalent problem here in Canada. It's time for autonomy for native bands.>>

Same here. However autonomy does not translate as eliminating the reservations or abrogating treaty rights, but instead disentangling control from BIA control and allowing true exercise of tribal sovereignty -- with all its ups and downs. However the judicial precedents have not been establish to permit the process. We have treaties with the Feds but not the states and state/tribe jurisdiction battles have been bloody.

<<yet get annoyed and, even vindictive if they try to take control of their lives >>

Boy howdy.

<<(i.e., Chief Philip in Philadelphia, Mississippi, who fought to bring education and jobs to the Choctaw reservation and ultimately brought in a casino against government wishes; by the way, unlike many of the so-called Indian casinos, Philip had active control of what was and wasn't done with everything involved with the complex).>>

Chotia (SP) Enterprises, the non-casino portion of the Mississippi Choctaw's economic initiative, have long been a model for tribal economic development. Prior to the 70's the Mississippi Choctaw lived in the worst of rural Southern poverty. By the 90's they had tribal control of schools, their own clinic, housing and jobs for all tribal members who could work.

Fay, can you answer a question for me? I thought the Metis are a particular cultural group of Native, Scots and French ancestry that occupied the plains. Is it a larger term?

Hi Rose,
In answer to your question about the metis. There is a disnctive metis culture at least for those who remained in contact with or on the settlements. Most of the original metis were descended from French and Scottish fur traders from the Hudson's Bay and North West companies though there were other nationalities involved as well. I think the issue comes down to the fact that in Canada up until a few years ago, any aboriginal or metis female who married a European lost their treaty staus which meant that there was more integration into the community. Even for persons who were integrated there was a tremendous feeling of in their native heritage(I read a story about a lady of metis descent here in Edmonton who talked about her mother telling her to be proud of the Cree). Many of the first settlers here in Edmonton were of metis descent which may color our perception to a certain extent.
Of course the use of the term metis may also be due to the fact that I live on the prairies and the term may not be used in other parts of the country.
One other interesting note:
In Saskatchewan, the province that has the largest proportion of natives/metis in Canada and sadly one of the provinces with a real problem of prejudice, a publicly funded school has been opened solely for the purpose of studying metis culture.

Not to disagree with this whole post.... I do tend to put blinders on though!

<<Despite the pressure to be "little brown Americans,">>

Hey, I resemble that remark! Never will forget a family reunion/birthday party for Granddad when one of my -- oh, who knows, there were so many of them! -- said "what, you forgetting your heritage?" Sheesh! All I did was refuse the pintos for heaven sakes!

Maybe if they'd been frijoles....

I now return you back to your regular Native American channel....

I live in Washington State, We have a lot of different tribes in this state. Some as small as just a couple dozen members to some that have thousands. In the 70's there was a big arguement over fishing rights but except for that I don't remember a big deal being made of the difference between people living on the the Rezervations and those living off.

Most the the Rezervations here are very open to having "Whites" living on and working on them. The only time there is a major problem is when upholding the law is questioned. One of our most contraversial (sp sorry )
was when two teenage members of a tribe beat a pizza delivery man so badly he almost died, The tribe thought that they should have the trial since the boys were of the tribe and the county thought they should since the boys did not live on the reservation and the incident did not happen there. They finally comprimised and the boys were on trial on the reveservation but the county prosicuted it. This has since set a precedent that both seem able to work with.

The only other major disagreement has been over the Macah's right to hunt whales. I was torn about this but once I found out that they were actually going to use the meat and blubber and just not hunt for the sake of hunting it I and most people I know have had no problem with this. I have a gentleman friend "the India" and yes I mean Indian ~he prefers this to Native american or First Nation if you don't know he is Cherokee~ Had quite a few long talks about this and he felt the same. It was not made clear what the tribe was going to do with the whale once it was caught.

Anyway just my thoughts.

Kathy P

Hello- You know,they never made a big deal out of the rez & heritage on the show...what's the point in killing it here. I mean, I guess this all started about what was canon and what was not...but hey, it's a fictional character for pete's sake...does it really matter?

>>My Humble Opinion August 18 2003, 8:54 PM

Hello- You know,they never made a big deal out of the rez & heritage on the show...what's the point in killing it here. I mean, I guess this all started about what was canon and what was not...but hey, it's a fictional character for pete's sake...does it really matter? <<

Not really, I guess. Maybe it does, I'm not sure. But at any rate, it's fun to discuss sometimes.

<<I live in Washington State, We have a lot of different tribes in this state. Some as small as just a couple dozen members to some that have thousands. In the 70's there was a big arguement over fishing rights but except for that I don't remember a big deal being made of the difference between people living on the the Rezervations and those living off.
Most the the Rezervations here are very open to having "Whites" living on and working on them.>>

Howdy!! waving to my fellow Washintonian

I have seen this too, especially in the casinos, but all over on the reservations there are a lot of whites that work on them.

However, I have had personal experiences with some reservation natives, not associated with casinos and/or employment, that have been not so pleasant. Being branded as evil at first sight is a very unpleasant experience, however it did give me a very personal insight on racism.

IMHO, Washington tribes (and what I've seen of the Coeur d'Alene Tribe in Idaho) go a long way towards peacefully relating with their white neighbors, and vice versa. The social benefits and mutual understanding has been astounding, not to mention the economic benefits for both the reservation, and the surrounding communities. Unfortunately, there still is a long way to go. Hopefully, open discussions like this one will eventually help both sides come to a mutual agreement. Afterall, this is the home to all of us.

Cheryl

Went to the Powwow in Orange County today....

Just had to share this t-shirt.

Picture that famous picture of four indian warriors....

Text:
National Security.
(Place Picture Here)
Fighting Terrorism since 1492.

I about died! Wish I had some more money.... I would have given it to my two roomies. The one who works at JPL would have worn it to work. That was just too good!

Oh and there was another one.

Got Frybread?