I really wonder what will Albanians choose if they are given opportunity to seize and unite with Albania, North-West Macedonia or North-West Greece- Epirus?????
Both, as an answer doest count !!!!!
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When a mother is asked which son she loves the most i bet her answer will not judge on one son...mothers have same love for each child ...so Albania will not have a choic but to love both its ancient lands ---ÇAMERIA and ILLyrida
how can you post this question when you knw both belonged to albania befor Ottoman Era
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this is relative because there had been time albania belong to Byzanty then to Bulgaria
then byzanty bulgaria serbia albania to turks ...so it is really relative which lend belong to whom
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Albania has been under byzantine rule but what before and albania has never been under Bulgaria..some 4 5 cities of eastern kosovo has been under but not albania..History tells everything we still have ancient ppl living in North Greec Cameria.they speak ancient albanian..we still have ancient ppl in south Montenegro and west macedonia almost 1/2 of west is inhabited by albanian population these are the facts.
Macedonians as they call themselves have only arrived in Macedonia during the Bulgarin empire ..they are not Macedonins they are mix race Bulgar-Slav..Ancient Macedonins have lived in Peace with Illyrians for so many centurys ntil The empire of Alexander the Great arose..but go and see ..just go and check his Empire Map ...he did not Touch ILLYRIA...just stop and think Why would he travel to egypt and Iran and not touch Illlyria because its belived that Alexander's Mother was Queen of Epirus at that time South Illyria.there for she was Albanian and he had some albanian blood...so only the history can teach us about ancient times but not some Propaganda HIstory but a real one that is Belived by Many historins not by albanains greeks serbs macedonians but for many scholars.
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Look at the Albanian trying to score brownie points with the Tatar
Tatar, why don't you show him your evidence of Kuber and the rest of your horde and how they settled Albania?
And as for you shiptar, Macedonians slaughtered Illyrians in the time of Alexander, and Phillip before him. But what am I telling you for, you have nothing to do wtih the Illyrians.
REAL ILLYRIANS ARE CROATIANS AND SERBS: I don't remember the skiptars crying or saying anything during the 19th century ILLYRIAN MOVEMENT which aimed to unify the South-Slavs and was directed by Croatians and Serbs. DO you know why? Because at that point in time you were still calling yourselves Turks, even "shiptar" wasn't invented or had just been so, and any Illyrian connection was non-existent until uncle German came and educated you on "who you are", just like with the neoethios.
Za nea nie se borime, za nea nie umreme, Makedonija, 20 Juli
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oh oh oh oh u serbs will never be human for once..thats why Europe it's having trouble understaning slavic nations....
there were never serbs in balkan they only step down in 6th century in the Illyrian Regions occupying everything that was illyrian once
you think belgrade was russian ohhh u so uneducated people illyrian lands from River Sava South to River Danube Today Belgrade was Illyria and up to Slovenia..
Slavs your HIsotry its the newst in Balkan and You should be calling Albania and Greece your Queens. since you should be proud living in occuping land on the oldest regions in Europe.
Ok serbs tell me what does it mean Bardhylls, Dardania, Albani in serbian or any other slavic lang...get out of Balkan leave the ancient history alone
there are 600,000 albanian immigrants in Greece almost all are already assimilted, changed there names and converted and there children go to Greek schools. there are estimated 200,000 muslim immigrants from other nations but very few actualy practice and again they will be assimilted.
ive been to Epirus many times ive never heard or seen anything albanian
The 19,000 Arvanites in Epirus are the descendants of ethnic Albanian immigrants from 11th century to the 15th century. They have been largely assimilated into the dominant Greek society and generally do not self-identify as Albanians.
even south albania is Greek
here is report from demogrpahic research team in 1994
"According to research conducted by a Romanian ethnographer in 1994, native Albanian is dying fast, and attempts to find Albanian-speakers in the region (Epirus) proved unsuccessful"
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you can give me a piece of greek history in here we all knw what was once ILLYria and its borders thats will prove whos Epirus belong to and who were its inhabitants Arvanites speak an old surviving albanian language in North greece...the only thing you dont understand that Arvanites feeling about north albananis changed in the ottoman era when they chose to convert to islam thats why they want to be called by a speacial minority name ARVANIT and that is ALbanian they can't change that ..
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The estimated 19,000 Arvanites in Epirus are the descendants of ethnic Albanian immigrants from 11th century to the 15th century. They have been largely assimilated into the dominant Greek society and generally do not self-identify as Albanians.
efforts to find albanian speakers in 1994 in Epirus was a failure
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Albanian Warrior from the southern part of Albania, with the famous Kilt(or Albanian Fustanella which is adopted by Greeks).
AND THE TRUTH
This frescoe is painted from Carl Haag (1861) and is now in the Benaki museum at Athens. Of course mention .....Greek Warrior=Amartolos!!!!
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turks are mixtures of Greeks,kurds,armenians,arabs,syrians,egyptians,libyans,al;algerians,persians,russians,bulgarians,slavs,tunisians,morrocans,mongolians and many many more.
Iran is 24% turkic but almost all are fully assimilted into dominant Persian culture they all move into Persian cities and assimilte only ones in Tabriz speak turkic
even man who made cartoon insulting turks was Azeri
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You're no different than the slaves of eastern Europe so stop dreaming of slavs to be Illyrians n Macedonians.
The majority of ancient Illyrian cities are located in Albania, Kosova, Illyrida, Cameria, Malesia(Albanian region in Montenegro)and the suprising thing here is that all these lands are inhabited by Albanians expect Cameria(taken by Greeks WW2).
So if slavs wonna visit a piece of real history they're gonna need a visa and a plane ticket.
Albanian Warrior from the southern part of Albania, with the famous Kilt(or Albanian Fustanella which is adopted by Greeks).
difference from "" which is adopted by greeks.."" it doest say which is adopted FROM greeks ..its says is adopted by greeks"
that doesnt make fustanella a greek get out of here
well if it was a greek painter then you think he will mentin that warrior arvanit...heheheh you always deny things but when its mentioned from Çameria then it has to be Arvanit
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hey dardanus per melart perkthimet qekishe postuar
te lutem jo gegerisht apo ne djalekt po pate munsi
shqipent standarte ok nese smundesh memire mos i hy hiç
mos e merr per keq ok
respect my brotherhttp:
//www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1162831561.JPG
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dardanus this frescoe located the Greek museum.Ask please anyone from the Albanians that live in my country to go and see it live.I am not go in an debate what is Greek or Albanian , i am just point out that the specific site is nationalistic as you of course.
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Heheheeh, you give the hungry dog a bone, and the dog starts to bark..
you give the nationalists on this forum, "nice" topic just for fun, and u cant do anything but read and hear their "barking"
Nationalism is it a sickness? if it is, there is no cure for all of you LOL
Its not important who you are or which tribe u belong, its important what kind of person you are, and how are you raised,with which civilisation values..but i see it lacks in here..
Cheers my fellow Illyrians,Hellenes and other old ancient tribes and nations, in which century do u live?
LOL
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Bulgur shumi, if you compare the language, customs and ethnology, you will see that Sumerians were pre-Turks. Even our flag symbolizes great sumerian goddess Inanna.
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and flag of macedonias is from time of alexander the great but thay speak bulgarian dialect
do you think alexander the great spoke bulgarian? ...my god ..yiu just convinced me that my people is more ancient then i thought ..
10x
SO ACCORFING TO KANU...SS ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS BULGARIAN )
some ancesors of merceners of persia wanna be shumerian ......
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They've ruled all the ancient greeks. Maybe they could a bit mix up with ancient greeks just as azeris have mixed up a bit with persians. But they have still been keeping their Macedonian side.
So why didn't they use the name of greece but Macedonian?????????????????
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""So why didn't they use the name of greece but Macedonian?????????????????""
Do you even read what we write??? There was also the Spartans why aren't there any body calling them self's the Spartan nation or even the Athenian nation today.
look in Ancient Greece, the city states were fiercely independant, micro nations by today's standards, who would ally with one another no differently than today's nations ally with one another, regardless of ethnicity. So it was under Alexanders rule Hellas was to become united, he united the Hellenic tribes, the Macedonian tribe and the Spartan tribe so forth.
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And further more they alllllllll spoke Greek, alllllll worshiped the same Gods back then. Another important thing is in Anceint times in the Olympics only Greeks were allowed to compete, Alexander did go to the Olympics then and remember only Greeks were allowed then...
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""Because they were city-states. They couldn't use any name else. But Macedonia was a large empire.""
Yes it was united with the rest of the Hellenic tribes and they spread Hellenism not Slavic to the world by avenging the Persians who pillaged and looted Greece prior Alexander being born. Also he is depicted as a pharaoh in Egypt so why aren¢t the Egyptians claiming him as his or her own?
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dear friends why are arguening on something that is well known ....
1. Slavs Arrived in Balkans from 6th century and on...
2. There was never a slavic Mecedonia.
3. ancient macedonins are belived to have roots from Ancient thracians and greeks.
4. At the time today macedonia was dived in 2 states.. west being Illyriand and east south Greek.
So there were never Slavs there they have only arrived after alexanders Empire
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"just stop and think Why would he travel to egypt and Iran and not touch Illlyria because its belived that Alexander's Mother was Queen of Epirus at that time South Illyrida"
FIRST OF ALL CAUCASIAN AZER!
EPIRUS IS NOT ILLYRIDA!
ILLYRIDA TODAY IS WHAT U CALL SKONDER TILL SKUBI RIVER!
EPIRUS IS EPIRUS
THE NATURAL BORDER BETWEEN ILLYRIA AND EPIROS WAS GENUSOS/SKUBI RIVER.STRAVO SAYS THIS!
ANCIENT MOLLOSEA AND EPIRUS WERE DIFERENT FROM THE KINGDOM OF ILLYRIA!ALSO STRAVO SAYS THIS
IN ARRIANOS "ALEKSANDROS ANAVASIS" ARRIANOS SAYS:WHEN ALEKSANDER WENT IN TO ILLYRIA ON THE BORDERS OF HIS MOTHER KINGDOM THE EPIROTIC MOLLOSEA HE FOUND BARBARIAN SAVAGES THEY WERE ILLYRIAN TRIBES!ILLYRIANS COULD NOT DIFEND THEM SELFS CAUSE THE MACEDONIASN HAD BETTER ARMY AND THEYWERE HIGHER FROM THEM!
DO U KNOW ******* Y ALEKSANDER LEFT FROM ILYRIA?CAUSE HE HAD TROUBLES WITH THE CITY STATE OF THEBES AND HE THOUGHT "IT IS BETTER TO LEAVE THIS BARBARIAN SAVAGES THE ILLYRIANS CAUSE THE CIVILIZED GREEK CITY STATE OF THEBES IS DANGERUS NOW AND THE THEBIANS WANT AN INDIPEDENCE"!.IT WAS TIME THEBES STARTED THE WAR AGAINST THE MACEDONIAN KINGDOM!THATS Y !MALAKA!E MALAKA!BURN YOUR CRAP BOOKS ALL OF U AZERS!WE KNOW THE TROOTH!WE KNOW THE HISTORYAND U CANT CHANGED IT!
AND DONT FORGET THIS
VORIOIPIROTES IS THE DISTINCT NATION OF ANCIENT EPIROTS THE TRIBE WHO CAME ALEKSANDERS MOTHER OLYMBIAS!
100000 GREEK SOULUS IN VORIA IPIROS HAVE NO RIGHTS AND THEY SUFEER FROM U FROM 1914!THAT IS THE TROOTH1
14 AYGOUSTOU 1904!MAKEDONIKOS AGON.
"EAN DE TREKSUME NA SOSOUME TI MAKEDONIA E MAKEDONIA DE THA MAS SOSI"
PAVLOS MELAS
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U STOP SAY ABOUT PROPAGANDA ABOUT EPIRUS IN THIS **** FORUM AND DO NOT SHOW ME MAPS FROM LOOSERS AZERS!IT IS SHAME
U CANT JUDJE STRAVO AND ARRIANOS FROM SOME IDIOTS POOR LOOSERS!
14 AYGOUSTOU 1904!MAKEDONIKOS AGON.
"EAN DE TREKSUME NA SOSOUME TI MAKEDONIA E MAKEDONIA DE THA MAS SOSI"
PAVLOS MELAS
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REMEMBER WHEN U REFERED TO ALBOS AS BROTHERS? WHY DO U STAB A BROTHA IN THE BACK NOW? B COZ UR GIRLFRIEND LEFT U FOR AN ALBANIAN?
FIRST OF ALL, THE NAME ILLYRIDA IS ONLY RECOGNISED BY ALBANIANS AS THE WESTERN PART OF MACEDONIA WHERE ALBANIANS HAVE BEEN LIVING FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS UNTIL SLAVS CAME AND DECIDED TO CALL IT MACEDONIA.
WHAT ARE U TO CALL ILYRIANS BARBARIANS ,SAVAGES, N THEBES WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THAT ALEXANDER MURDERED HUNDRETS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVING SOULS ON HIS PATH FROM MACEDONIA TO INDIA AND STOLE ALL THEIR PRECIOUS BELONGINGS. AM I WRONG?
ILLYRIA STRECHED FROM WHAT IS NOW SLOVENIA ALL THE WAY DOWN TO CHAMERIA, THERES ANCIENT ILLYRIAN TOWNS THAT PROVE THAT. SLAVS CAME IN THE 6TH CENTURY AND INVADED OUR LANDS STOLE OUR HISTORY AND CLAIMED IT THEIRS JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH YOURS MACEDONIA TO BE MORE EXACT. EVER SINCE THEIR ARRIVAL BETRATED THE CLOSEST FRIENDS U EVER HAD THE (THE ILLYRIANS)AND COLLABORATED WITH SLAVS TO STEAL EVERY PIECE OF LAND FROM US UNTIL THIS VERY DAY. SO THE BIGGEST TRAITORS THAT EVER LIVED IN THE FACE OF THE BALKANS WERE THE GREEKS THEMSLVES.
DURING THE TURKISH INVASION WE WERE ALWAYS LONE HEROES BECOZ WE COULDN'T TRUST NO GREEKS OR SERBS COZ THEY ALWAYS HAD ONE THING IN THEIR MINDS AND THAT WAS TO SPLIT ALBANIA BETWEEN THEM. ALL THOSE ALBANIANS LIKE ALI PASHA WHO BECAME OTAMAN GENERALS, KILLED ALOT GREEKS NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEY REPRESENTED TURKS BUT ALSO BECAUSE THEIR FAMILIES WERE KILLED AND TORTURED BY GREEKS AND SERBS IN THE PAST.
AFTER WW1,WW2 THE SAME HAPPEND,SERBS AND GREEKS COLLABORATED WITH THE MAJOR POWERS LIKE THE SOVIET UNION N ENGLAND TO TAKE EVERY PIECE OF LAND U COULD GET.
NOW OUR TIME HAS COME TO TAKE WHAT ALWAYS BELONGED TO US
KOSOVA IS ALMOST INDIPENDENT, ILLYRIDA IS NEXT, MALESIA WONT BE TO HARD TO BRAKE UP FROM MONTENEGRO AND CHAMERIA WICH YOUR GRANDKIDS ONE DAY WILL FIGHT TO KEEP CONTROL OF. IT MAY LOOK AND SOUND LIKE A DREAM TO U BUT U'LL FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF WHO WE REALLY ARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. WHAT SKANDERBEG STARTED WILL BE FINISHED.
AND HOW CAN U SAY THAT GREEKS SUFFER IN VORIO EPIROS? ALBANIANS IN ALBANIA HAVE SUFFERED A HUNDRET TIMES WORSE THAN THEY EVER HAD THATS WHY THERE'S SO MANY OF US IN GREECE. WHAT DO U EXPECT THE COUNTRY TO PROVIDE THEM WHEN IT CAN'T PROVIDE FOR ITS OWN PPL? REMEMBER WHAT KENNEDY SAID "ITS NOT WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR U ITS WHAT U CAN DO FOR UR COUNTRY" IN THIS CASE THE GREEKS ARE THINKING THE TOTAL OPPOSITE.
U CAN STICK UR HISTORY AND RELGION UP YOURS COZ IT DONT MAKE UNIQUE.
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Nov 18, 2006 8:20 AM
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YES THEY WERE BROTHERS AND GREEKS ALSO HELP THEM!BUT MINDS LIKE YOURS CAN NOT ACCEPT THE TROOTH1DO U KNOW HOW KAMS WENT IN TO THESPROTIA?HUH?
DO U KNOW?
AFTER THE BULGARIAN OCCUPATION IN ALBANIA THE GREEK IMPEROR OF BYZANTIOUM BASIL THE BULGSLAYER KICK THE BULGARS OUT FROM ALBANIA1SO..HE GAVE LANDS TO ALBOS AGAIN AND HE ACCEPTED THEM AS THE SAME NATION!THE KAMS WERE ALBOS FROM ARBASAN TODAY ELBASAN THEY LEFT AFTER THE BULGARIAN OCCUPAITION IN ALBANIA AND THEN THEY CAME IN TO THESPROTIA BY THE IMPEROR BASIL II BULGSLAYER AT 1018 I THINK!CAMS ARE NOT EPIRS!!DOES THE ALBANIAN PROFESORS SAYS SOMETHING FOR THIS IMPEROR1HUH?DOES?Y?
WHAT PROPAGANDA U SAY?
FORM THOUSANTS YEARS EPIR WAS NOT PART OF ILLYRIDA!NEVER!
AND IF EPIR EXIST AS ILLYRUIAN LAND U SHALL KNOW SOMETHING FROM NOW!
ARISTOTEL SAID THAT THE NAME "HELLENES" CAME FROM THE EPIROT TRIBE OF "SELOE" TODAY S O U L I.MARKOS BOCHARIS IN HIS BOOK SAYS...
"WE R THE SAME AND ONE BROTHERHOOD NATION.THE ARBOUNITES ARE THE NON CIVILIZED GREEKS AND GREEKS ARE THE CIVILIZED ARBOUNITES!WE R THE SAME PELASGIAN NATION"
SOULIOTES WERE THE WORST ENEMIES OF HAALI PASHA!AND U R HUPPY FOR THIS...CAUSE HAALI PASHA KILLED MANY SULIOTS!
EPIRUS WAS A PART FROM GREECE WE SPLIT BLOOD FOR THE LIBERATION IN EPIRUS AND NO ONE CANT TAKE FROM US THIS LAND CAUSE FROM THIS LAND CAME THE HELLENES! END OF STORY!
14 AYGOUSTOU 1904!MAKEDONIKOS AGON.
"EAN DE TREKSUME NA SOSOUME TI MAKEDONIA E MAKEDONIA DE THA MAS SOSI"
PAVLOS MELAS
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Nov 18, 2006 8:12 AM
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Do u know how many Albanians died under the Byzantium empire before Bulgaria invaded us? You have no fu--ing idea. So Basil didn't do us no favor by invading us once again, even though he kicked the Bulgars out we were still under his bloody empire.
Alot of Greeks call us traitors just because most of us changed religion but our hate of Turks always remained for all 500yrs of torture. Maybe you forgot how the Arvanites and Suliotes(spoke Abanian) were brave Albanian fighters who lost their lives to save greeks from the Otamans. Ali Pasha was a filthy traitor and I don't deny that becasue he killed alot of Albanians but he also killed Greeks who wanted to expand their region further more in Albania.
Chams came from Elbasan? Hahahhahahhahahahahaha
Greek historians spread alot of ant-albanian propaganda to hide their shameful acts. Chams were the original inhabitants from the Illyrian population in Epirus but your ppl always spread hate aganst them because they supported Chameria within Albania and their religion wasn't Orthodoxy.
Greek soldiers spilled blood not for Epirus but for Greece, there's a big difference there.
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See also: Theories on the origin of Serbs, History of Serbs in Vojvodina, History of Serbs in Kosovo, History of Croatian Serbs, History of Bosnian Serbs, History of Serbia
The tribal designation Serboi first appears in the 1st century in the works of the Tacitus (c. 50 AD) and Pliny (69-75 AD), and also in the 2nd century in the Geography of Ptolemy (book 5, 9.21) to designate a tribe dwelling in Sarmatia, probably on the Lower Volga River.
The Slavs (including Serbs) came to the Balkans from a broad region in central and eastern Europe, which extended from the rivers Elbe in the west to the Dnieper in the east, and from a point which touched the Carpathian mountains in the south and the river Niemen in the north. Different tribes settled in different parts of the Balkan peninsula, subsequently developing their distinct identities after displacing the Romanized Vlach population which already was in the area. The Balkan Vlachs were descendants of Romanized Thracians and Dacians and over time these Vlachs mixed with Slavic tribes; thus present-day Slavic nations of the Balkans, including Bosnian Serbs, have both Slavic and Vlach ancestors.
Serb-ruled lands during the 9th century, mostly according to the Serbian interpretation of the De Administrando ImperioThe Serb settlement in the Balkans appears to have taken place between 610 and 640. The first certain data on the state of the Serboi, Serbia, dates to the 9th century. The Serbs were Christianized in several waves between the 7th and 9th century, with the last wave taking place between 867 and 874.
During and after that period, Serbs struggled to gain independence from the Byzantine Empire. The first Serb states were Rascia or Raška and Zeta. Their rulers had varying degrees of autonomy, until virtual independence was achieved under Saint Sava, who became the first head of the Serb Orthodox Church, and his brother Stefan Prvovenèani of Serbia, who became the first Serb king. Serbia did not exist as a state of that name, but was rather the region inhabited by the Serbs; its kings and tsars were called the "King of the Serbs" or "Tsar of the Serbs", not "King of Serbia" or "Tsar of Serbia". The medieval Serbian state is nonetheless often (if anachronistically) referred to as "Serbia".
Serbia reached its golden age under the House of Nemanjiæ, with the Serbian state reaching its apogee of power in the reign of Tsar Stefan Uroš Dušan. Serbia's power subsequently dwindled arising from interminable conflict among the nobility, rendering the country unable to resist the steady incursion of the Ottoman Empire into south-eastern Europe. The Battle of Kosovo in 1389 is commonly regarded in Serbian national mythology as the key event in the country's defeat by the Turks, although in fact, Ottoman rule was not fully imposed until some time later. After Serbia fell, Tvrtko Kotromaniæ, the king of Bosnia used the title "King of Bosnia, the Serbs, the West-ends and the Primorje" from 1389 to 1390.
As Christians, the Serbs were regarded as a "protected people" under Ottoman law. Some of them converted to Islam in order to be client or governer in Ottoman Empire. Beginning from period of Mehmed II most of the grand viziers are chosen from Serbs[citation needed].
At the beginning of the 19th century, the First Serbian Uprising succeeded in liberating at least some Serbs for a limited time. The Second Serbian Uprising was much more successful, resulting in Ottoman recognition of Serbia as autonomous principality within the Empire. Serbia acquired international recognition as an independent kingdom at the Congress of Berlin in 1878. However, many Serbs remained under foreign rule – that of the Ottomans in the south, and of the Habsburgs in the north and west. The southern Serbs were liberated in the First Balkan War of 1912, while the question of the Habsburg Serbs' independence was the spark that lit World War I two years later. During the war, the Serbian army fought fiercely, eventually retreating through Albania to regroup in Greece, and launched a counter-offensive through Macedonia. Though they were eventually victorious, the war devastated Serbia and killed a huge proportion of its population – by some estimates, over the half of the male Serbian population died in the conflict, influencing the region's demographics to this day.
After the war, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (later called Yugoslavia) was created. Almost all Serbs finally lived in one state. The new state had its capital in Belgrade and was ruled by a Serbian king; it was, however, unstable and prone to ethnic tensions.
During the Second World War, the Axis Powers occupied Yugoslavia, dismembering the country. Serbia was occupied by the Germans, while in Bosnia and Croatia, Serbs were put under the rule of the Italians and the fascist Ustaša regime in the Independent State of Croatia. Under Ustaša rule in particular, Serbs and other non-Croats were subjected to systematic genocide, known as the Serbian genocide, when hundreds of thousands were killed. The Hungarian and Albanian fascists, who occupied northern and southern parts of the country, also performed persecutions and genocide against the Serb population from these regions.
After the war, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was formed. As with pre-war Yugoslavia, the country's capital was at Belgrade. Serbia was the largest republic. There were also two established autonomous provinces within Serbia - Kosovo (with an Albanian majority) and Vojvodina (with a Serb majority and a large number of different minorities). Besides Serbia, the large Serb populations were concentrated in Bosnia and Herzegovina (where they were largest ethnic group until 1971) and Croatia.
Communist Yugoslavia collapsed in the early 1990s, with four of its six republics becoming independent states. This led to several bloody civil wars, as the large Serbian communities in Croatia and Bosnia attempted to remain within Yugoslavia, then consisting of only Serbia and Montenegro. Serbs in Croatia formed their state of Republika Srpska Krajina, but after they were military defeated, most of them were expelled from this region by Croatian army. Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina formed their state of Republika Srpska, currently one of the two political entities that form the country of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Another war broke out in Kosovo (see Kosovo War) after years of tensions between Serbs and Albanians. Up to 250,000 Serbs left Croatia during the "Operation Storm" in 1995, and 300,000 left until 1993, and another 200,000 left Kosovo after the Kosovo War, and settled mostly in Central Serbia and Vojvodina as refugees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs
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ALbanian HIsotory
Origin of Albanians
For more details on this topic, see Origin of Albanians.
Most scholars consider that Albanians are direct descendants of an Illyrian tribe that was named "Albanoi," which was located in modern-day Albania. Some scholars dispute this while others claim that Albanians and Illyrians are descendants of the ancient Pelasgians, making their history go back at least 4,000 years before Christ.
Those who support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory maintain that all Illyrian tribes, except the Albanians, disappeared during the Early Middle Ages after the waves of migrating barbarians. A formidable mountain homeland and resilient tribal society enabled the Albanians to survive into modern times with their identity and their Indo-European language intact. According to these scholars, the name 'Albania' is derived from the name of an Illyrian tribe called the Arber, or Arbereshë, and later Albanoi, that lived near Durrës.
[edit] Ancient Illyria
For more details on this topic, see Illyria.
The Illyrians were Indo-European tribesmen who appeared in the western portion of the Balkan Peninsula about 1000 B.C., a period coinciding with the end of the Bronze Age and beginning of the Iron Age. They inhabited much of the area for at least the next millennium. Archaeologists associate the Illyrians with the Hallstatt culture, an Iron Age people noted for production of iron, bronze swords with winged-shaped handles, and domestication of horses. The Illyrians occupied lands extending from the Danube, Sava, and Morava rivers to the Adriatic Sea and the Sar Mountains. At various times, groups of Illyrians, such as the Messapians and Iapyges, migrated to Italy through both overland routes and the sea.
Albanians were originally an extension of the southeast Illyrian peoples. By contrast with other areas, the coastal hinterland between the Narenta and the Drilo was occupied by a considerable number of smaller tribes, most of whom lost their identities during the final stages of Roman occupation. The twenty peoples listed by Pliny were only a fraction of the eighty-nine civitates attested by Varro a century earlier at the Narona conventus.
The southeast of Dalmatia was populated by "real Illyrians," and the evidence from personal names produces a uniform picture with very little influence from other parts of the province, except for a group of Celtic names in the upper Narenta valley around Konjic. In the later 3rd and 2nd centuries B.C., all these peoples were part of the Illyrian kingdom, but with the removal of King Gentius they all attained some form of independence, mostly through treaty arrangements with the Romans.
The Illyrians carried on commerce and warfare with their neighbors: Greeks, Paionians, Thracians, and other peoples. To the east in Dardania, there was a broad area of intermingling, or a "contact zone," between Illyrians and Thracians. This area encompassed the Danube below Belgrade down the west of the Morava valley to the Vardar and the northern border of Macedonia. In the south and along the Adriatic Sea coast, the Illyrians were heavily influenced by the Greeks, who founded trading colonies there. At the end of the 7th century B.C., Corinthian Greek settlers from Corfu established ports on the coast at Apollonia (Pojanë, near modern Vlorë) in 588 B.C. and farther north at Lissos (Lezhë) and Epidamnos (modern Durrës) in 623 B.C. The Illyrians living in Albania's rugged mountains, however, resisted Greek settlement. Illyrian raiders attacked the coastal cities and Illyrian pirates threatened Greek trading ships in the Adriatic Sea.
Illyrians produced and traded cattle, horses, agricultural goods, and wares fashioned from locally mined copper and iron. Feuds and warfare were constant facts of life for the Illyrian tribes, and Illyrian pirates plagued shipping on the Adriatic Sea. Councils of elders (bulae) chose the chieftains who headed each of the numerous Illyrian tribes. From time to time, local chieftains extended their rule over other tribes and formed short-lived kingdoms. During the fifth century B.C., well-developed Illyrian population centers existed as far north as the upper Sava River valley in what is now Slovenia. Illyrian friezes discovered near the present-day Slovenian city of Ljubljana depict ritual sacrifices, feasts, battles, sporting events, and other activities.
The Illyrian kingdom of Bardhyllus became a formidable local power in the fourth century B.C. He fought against Greek settlers and Macedonia, a powerful kingdom to the southeast. In 358 B.C., however, Macedonia's Phillip II, father of Alexander the Great, defeated the Illyrians and assumed control of their territory as far as Lake Ohrid. Alexander himself routed the forces of the Illyrian chieftain Clitus in 335 B.C. and Illyrian tribal leaders and soldiers accompanied Alexander on his conquest of Persia. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., new Illyrian kingdoms were established. In 312 B.C., King Glaucius expelled the Greeks from Durrës. By the end of the third century, the Illyrian king Agron had united many independent cities and greatly expanded Illyrian territory. Agron made Shkodër his capital and built an army and navy to protect Illyrian cities and ports. His kingdom, which stretched from Dalmatia in the north to the Vijosë River in the south, controlled parts of northern Albania, Montenegro, and Hercegovina. After Agron's death in 231 B.C., control of Illyria passed to his widow, Teuta. The queen ordered several attacks on neighboring states, but the pirate raids on merchant vessels in the Adriatic Sea made Teuta's realm an enemy of Rome. Roman troops defeated Teuta's army and seized the port of Epidamnos, which the Romans renamed Durrachium.
If you ask every historian or open any history book then u will learn that your ancestors came from present day Russia and Ukraine but you're too shameful to realize that because the place where u and your siberian rats live now was once colonized by Albanians, Greeks, and Romanians until u arrived in millions and dissplaced all the original inhabitants. So what was your history before 6AD? You were farmers and slaves for the wealthy back in Siberia, Russia n Ukraine but like I said you're too shameful to realize that. If u know what your history was before 6AD then present me some facts coz I could definetly present u some facts about my history BC. Who gives a flying fu-- what some austian nazis and turks say? We know the the truth and the truth is that Albanians were always the majority will always be.
So u must be very proud of your religon ha? It must have been alot of fun for Serbs to just seat and watch their churches go up in flames. If u say we changed religion to pay less taxes is true then i wouln't be suprised because religon to us means absolutely nothing and its nothing to be proud of. "You find God in your heart not in churches & mosques" but what do I know I'm not religious.
Yes Nato helped Albanians by droping some cherries in Belgrade hahahahhahahahahaha Sorry boddy u were dealing with some smart Albanians.
If u wonna take a visit to Albania and see foryouself how ppl live you'll be more than welcome to. Afterall you will realize that your ppl live in s-ithole serbia.
Serb u cant reveal the truth about Kosova b/c it will burn inside you even more so just keeep presenting some fake facts to make you feel better.
EARLY 2007 TWO ALBANIAN STATES IN THE BALKANS
ALBANIAN 4 LIFE now just go seat on the corner and rust yourself saying that u don't need nobodys help coz youz a brave serb.
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Nov 22, 2006 8:47 PM
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thats funny. if you read the article on Serbs ok wikipedia it says that noone knows for sure where serbs came from and there are many theories. My whole family is Serbian and we have a family tree and we have never mixed with any other peoples(a big majority mixed with turks). My whole family has dark hair and dark eyes and noone in my family has blue eyes or even blonde hair which is typical in ukraine and russia, how do you explain that?
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[edit] 14th century
The Deèani Charter from 1330 contained detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania:
3 of 89 settlements were Albanian, the other being non-Albanian.
Out of the 2,166 farming homesteads and 2,666 houses in cattle-grazing land, 44 were registrated as Albanian (1,8%). Others were registered as Slavic i. e. Serbian.
The non-Serbian population of Kosovo didn't exceed 2% by the end of the 14th century.
[edit] 15th century
The 1445 Turkish cadestral tax census on the territory of Kosovo:
12,844 Serbian housing
46 Albanian households
1455: Turkish cadastral tax census (defter)[1] of the Brankovic dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day Kosovo) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). By ethnicity:
12,985 Serbian dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vuèitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vuèitrn
1 Croat dwelling
1487: A census of the House of Brankoviæ Ottoman
Vuèitrn district:
16,729 Christian housing (412 in Priština and Vuèitrn)
117 Moslem households (94 in Priština and 83 in rural areas)
Scutari district:
Ipek district:
City of Ipek - 68% Slavs
121 Christian household
33 Moslem households
Suho Grlo and Metohija:
131 Christian household of who 52% in Suho Grlo were Slavs
Donja Klina - 50% Slavs
Deèani - 64% Slavs
Rural areas:
6,124 Christian housings (99%)
55 Moslem houses (1%)
theres proof that albanians are new to the balkans, they were nothing even in the 17th century
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It is most likely that the region of Kosovo has been inhabited by Illyrian tribes since the Bronze Age. In ancient times the area was known as Dardania and was settled by a tribe with the same name. The south of Kosovo was ruled by Macedonia afterAlexander the Great's reign in the 4th century BC. The local Dardani were of Illyrian stock.
Illyrians organised resistance against the Greeks and Romans for centuries but after the long wars of Illyrian tribes against intruders, the region was later occupied by the Roman Empire under Emperor Augustus. When the Roman Empire split in A.D. 395, the area of Kosovo became part of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire. Dardania gave numerous leaders to both Rome and Constantinopolis. Justinian the Great was among them.
The Slavic settlers of the Balkan peninsula reached the far end of the Peloponnesus as early as in the 7th century, but due to its remote position as a plateau surrounded by high mountains, Kosovo didn't come to have a Slavic majority until the 9th century. The original Illyrian, more or less romanized population who had sought refuge in the highlands gave birth to the Albanian and the Romanian languages there, in a region centered around Kosovo in the 10th century. The thesis according to which the Albanians might be the descendants of a Thracian tribe, put forward by the Austrian albanologist Gustav Weigand in the 19th century, has now been refuted. The contemporary Albanians and Vlachs in the Western Balkans - the invading Slavs called Vlah whomever spoke a Latin or Latin-influenced language - are the descendants of their first inhabitants.
Starting in the late 12th century, the Serb kingdom of Rascia began taking parts of Kosovo away from the Byzantine empire - which had itself wrested them from the Bulgarian kingdom of Macedonia in the 11th century, and the Eastern Christian Slavs in Kosovo who acknowledged the authority of the newly established Serb Patriarch came to think of themselves as "Serbs". Local sources reveal a long hitory of coexistence between the Slavic invaders and the native Albanian population. The Serbian empire at the center of which Kosovo found itself in the 14th century was multi-national, and political allegiance there did not depend upon
arkan dont give me a kosovo related topics in here
regarding your site ..check on your right by ur flag under it it says
"This article is part of the series:
Republic of Serbia
so dont give me articles from serbien related topics i dont wanna knw what you think about kosova(ANCIENT DARDANIA) its ours forever now die hating albanins ...but albanians now are stronger then ever two states in balkan and ur serbia its getting smaller everyday have a good one and go to slobos grave a pray ...
those stats are from german and ottoman sourses.
just admit it you, you albanians have no history
my grandma has more history then albanians in the balkans
You got raped by turks and now your all muslims, only like 20% of alanians are still orthodox? pretty sad. Us serbs stayed loyal to our religion even after centuries of ottoman occupation.
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correction about greeks, we never mixed with other nations that s why you can see still nowadays our greek features like straigt nose and big eyes..
and albanians illyrians, it is bull****....
the first nation who became conscious of their illyrians background, was, if I read my history books well, the Croatians,
the Albanians in those times werent thinking of national identity (Inappropriate and disrespectful matter. Deleted) right ALbos////??
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Nov 23, 2006 7:41 PM
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Arkanovic
How can u deny those stats when u already used the same source to prove your point? I guess u can't handle true historical facts being thrown at your face but instead you use religion to provoke us. U can stay loyal to your priests while we stay loyal to our albanianism.
Elena
(Totally inappropriate matter. Deleted.)
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Nov 23, 2006 7:43 PM
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This thread is becoming a Troll-fest. More inappropriate matter is being posted than actual discussion/debate about the subject of this thread. Please maintain course and civil behavior.
"Unbiased thought and originality are good, blind conformity and willful ignorance are unforgivable."
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we all know that the Albanians arent Illyrians, forget about it, your culture has nothing ancient but is a weird central-asiatic culture with Turkish elements so....just listen to your language which says enough!
anyway those "albanians from Greece" who played an important role for Greek history, are GREEKS not albanians, and are from Southern ALbania which is GReek land, Northern Epirus which is ancient GReek land. Whole South ALbania is originally greek with GReek people, who are unfortunately Albanized, but thankgoodness they are coming back to their original roots.
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elena ...you greeks are the same as serbs what do you want me to expect from same propagands of all times...south albania ..greec hehehhehe what a joke....it was a occupied by greece for some time from Janina...PREVEza thats all albania...viva albania........
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"it was a occupied by greece for some time"
-----------------------------------------------
Dardanous.. I think we have an issue here; You dont search For one more time.. read the below stuff for Epirus.. and lets talk about "occupations"
Do you believe is coinsedence that people are living in that region today... still speaking Greek? If that is coinsedence.... then "what a coinsedence"
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Dec 18, 2006 11:16 AM
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Trying?? lol lol We are trying to stop them for being Hellenized and taking the Greek passport! lol lol If we let things as it comes... believe me... 200 million who have a great-grandfather or a first cousin of Greek descent will become Greeks in one night!
Believe me Kannouni... we "are trying" exactly the opposite!
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I see you are still tryiing to make
good points based on Research and
your friend greece is cool or rox
or whatever opts for her grandpas
version.
Ancient Greek writers used the name Pelasgians (Greek: Pelasgoí, s. Pelasgós) to refer to groups of people who preceded the Hellenes and still dwelt in several locations in mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean, as neighbors of the Hellenes, into the 5th century. The ancient Greek references to the Pelasgians are confusing. However, it is agreed that the Pelasgians had spoken something that was not entirely intelligible to the speakers of Greek dialects of their own time.
Whether the Pelasgian language was pre-Indo-European or not, and the extent to which it was a single language or not, are modern disputes that are colored by contemporary nationalist issues. Among the nations for whom Pelasgian descent has been claimed are Albanians, Greeks, and Romanians. There is also a theory suggesting that the Philistines or Peleset of the ancient Levant were connected with the Pelasgians. Scholars have since come to use the term "Pelasgian", somewhat indiscriminately, to indicate all the autochthonous inhabitants of the Aegean lands before the arrival of the Greeks; a number of other recent theories as to their nature are also discussed below.
Contents [hide]
1 Classical Greek uses
1.1 In Homer
1.2 Post-Homeric
1.3 In Herodotus
2 Modern theories
2.1 Pre-Indo-European people
2.2 Hellenic people
3 See also
4 References
5 External links
5.1 Romanian point of view
5.2 Turkish point of view
However, it is agreed that the Pelasgians had spoken something that was not entirely intelligible to the speakers of Greek dialects of their own time.
Lets see know hmmmmmmmmmm.
Please go read first ok.
Greeks didnt mix? exuse me
this was just the very beggining.
3000 years ago. till now?
Hey Albanians are not hellenic
case closed.
Or should I call Albanians Muslim
and Christian Arbanites/Arbereshe who live
outside of Greece. I know some times Greeks have
trouble decifering between Ethnicity, and religion.
Wow if you guys say a Greek Jew you would be stumped
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Braveserb
"albanian language and greek dont sound even the same, so how they can have the same origins?!"
----------------------------------------
Same origin..no... but some kind of weird connection... yes. I am not sure.. and nobody can be sure for that... but always... and I mean always... the people living in the mountains where Albania stands today.. were in a way... more familiar and more easily absorbed from the Greek population. Although the were the "others"... they could permieted easily in Greek societies. I dont know how that happens.. but it happens.
Of course everything change during Ottoman Era when they started to adopt the Muslim religion. Since then everything changed, since religion is a serious edicator of how we perceive life etc.
And when we say ... Greek origin.. you have to understand that Greeks where always different tribes. Pontians, Macedonians, Epirots, Ionians, Peloponeseans, S.E Islanders including Cyprous, etc etc. are different tribes with one common element; Hellenism. There is no one Greek origin. From the foundation of our country... there were different tribes.Minoans, Pelasgians, Achaians, Dorians. So... its not just one race with the same origin. Everybody who shares the Hellenistic culture is a Greek. I know it sounds confusing... but that is how Hellenism was always.
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Jomama1
"Hey Basil long time buddy.
I see you are still tryiing to make good points based on Research and your friend greece is cool or rox or whatever opts for her grandpas version."
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jomama.. yeap.. long time. You know how sales people are; here and there..
I am trying to make good points based on logic... even in common logic if there are no resourses.. About the Hellenic origin of "Mountain people" ... there are no resources... just a theory... and I will not defended to death since I am not sure. It is just a theory... just as the theory of Pelasgians. Since we both cant proove it... lets just talk on the air
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when Albanians so easily `assimilate´into other societies, like Turkish where they become ´turks´or in Greece where they become ´greeks´then its clear that there doesnt exist any ALbanian identity....
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I also think first albanians have no connection with Greeks. ancient nations are supposed to be dark in general. Albanians are blond therefore I think they are more Russian than Serbs are.
furthermore albanians never had their own state on the balkans but were ruled by other wether byzantines, serbs, italians, greeks, turks etc..From where did they get their ideas of a Great albania? when they were always puppets for others.
The first Albanians who appeared in history in balkans was around 11th century, before the albanian territories where inhabited by vlach, slav roman, greek.
NOw i read somewhere that the ALbanians got their language from a Norman King who ruled Sicily, is this true??? so actually Albanians are from Sweden or what? hahahahaha well that explains the blond hair of albanians
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Albanians are Swedish?
Yeah Im going to have to go with
probably not on that one.
What Basil was telling you is there were
diffrent tribes in Greece.
There ones that spoke foreign
language like the first ones
the Pelasgians. To this day there are people in Greece
called the Arbanites who speak the same
language as Toska Albanians who say they
derived from the Pelasgians and consider
themselves Greek because they have always
been an integral part of Greece. SORRY
MILOS LIED TO YOU. LOL. Open a book read.
Make sure the authors name doesnt end with
VIC.
By the way the theory that Arbanites are
the descendants of Pelasgians in not proven,
but go tell them that serb.
Why am I arguing wiht someone who thinks we might be
russian. ahahah
That is the most ridiculous thing I
have ever heard.
Oh by the way your slavic entrance in
the Balkans is well noted in history.
No need to argue. We all know where
your from.
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Why I need to listen to someone who thinks he is a pure Illyrian? how can you be pure Illyrian when we in fact ### you a lot?
and also we are not pure SLav, I know that serbs are mixed romans, illyrians, thracians, greeks and vlachs.
And I have read BAsil very well, I dont need your explanation!
and not all comments of basil are so well written, or examples of knowledge....
the Illyrian theory derives from some german albanologists to make an albanian state in stead of a Serbian near the Adriatic thats well known.
and tosk are in fact Albanised Greeks. yeah of course than they are the same, when tosks are Greeks!
the whole albanian culture and society has nothing to do with ancient Hellenic culture or hellenism ..
Or is stealing and kidnappig, does that derives from the ancient hellenes.
You are from the CAucacus still dont believe it...how many times I need to say you are from Chechnya?
Listen not everything what historians say is objective or true ok, I clean my ass with your illyrian theory...
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Ok.. guys.. try to forget your nationalism for a while so as to have a normal conversation here. I dont know where to start from;
Greeceiscool.
First of all Helena, do you have the slightest idea what Hellenism is?? I doubt! Do you believe Hellenism is the 11 million Greeks leaving in a small piece of land in south Balkans? That is Greece...and that is what is left from Hellenism. Hellenism is a much broader idea that a narrowed nationalist Greek or other Balkanik mind, that reads only nationalist news papers, cannot adopt.
Hellenism is not about blood or origin. Hellenism is about culture and common elements in everyday life Greeceiscool. An ethical Albanian or Serbian family leaving in Greece and have adopted the Hellenic culture and the Hellenic way of leaving... something that most of the Balkans have innate... is more Greek than some scums, Greeks by blood according to you , who leave in Athens and burn the Greek flag every 17th of November. An Albanian pupil that wants to be a part of parades during the day Hellenism celebrates.. is more Hellenic origin than you can imagine. You have very wrong idea about Hellenism. Hellenism is a very broad term... and you are narrow minded person to get it. Hellenism contains many tribes. Yes... Greeks are many tribes as Germans are and as Saxons are. If Alexander the Great or Rigas Fereos were thinking the way you do.... imagine.
Jomama and Braveserb
Since there is a small misunderstanding.. I will repeat myself. What we say when we mean Hellenic world is... different tribes with common elements under one cultural rule; Hellenism. Greece from the beggining of its existence were different tribes. Minoans were the first in Crete, Pelasgians were afterwards, Achaians then.... and finally the Dorians came. All those people intermixed. Some of them went to Sicely,some of them in Epirus, some of them in Dalmatia, some of them in Asia Minor, some of them to Spain, some of them in Tunisia, some of them in Egypt some of them in the whole area around Black Sea etc etc and some of them stayed behind.. in what is today known as Greece.
What is sure for them is that they all had one common language to communicate and that was the official Greek and one common way of behavior except their local idioms and their tribal characteristics. That is the Hellenic world and many people in Balkans and Med Sea belong to it even if they dont know it.
The collapse of the Hellenic world started with the Ottoman Era... People have start to differentiate eachother according their religion. Later they started to differentiate even more according their political parties and according the side they were during the cold war, and later they started to differentiate ever more when Americans started to create new ethnicites something that continues even today.
Where my theory starts is here. First of all I will refer to the "people of mountains" since the term Albanian is a new term.
Ancient Greek city states and modern Greece as a nation... had never invaded in those lands. Although Greece had always the military power and used that power in any given chance ... we never did it since antiquity. Those people leaving there were always in a kind of contact and aprooval from the rest of the Greek tribes. The only reason that to happen was.... because they didnt felt that something "unknown and dangerous" was there. One way or another, there was a continous interaction with those people. Those people leaving there, behind the mountains of Epirous, were isolated from the close contact with neighbor Greek tribes and their culture.. like Macedonians, but they were never in war with them and they were never enemies! even when Alexander started to conquer the world.. they were not among the conquered.. and that means something for those cruel years.
During Ottoman Era, when the differentiation started, many of those mountain people and specifially the Northeners started to adopting the Muslim religion and the Muslim/Turkish culture. The Southerners never changed from their Hellenic habbits. During WW2 when the big powers decide that a country needs to be there for their interests... Albania was created. Northeners became what is known today as Gheks and Southeners became what is known today as Tosks.
After the isolation of those people for 50 years with the communist regime... differentiation with the Hellenic culture became even bigger and finally it dissapeared. After Hotza regime, that land was an easy target for American external policy and Americans interfeerance in that land... made them even more distant from any other culture in Balkans.
Ottoman Turks, Nazis, Hotza, Americans made those people a kind of "hostile" people to Greeks that used to share a lot of stuff in the past.
The latest growth in criminality from those people that immigrated to Greece in addition with the latest "friendly" external policy of Sali Berisha to Turkey and USA... made things worst.
Something that somebody should mention is .... despite that evolution... those people are the best in assimilation the last years into the Greek society than any other economic immigrants in Greece.
That is all about.
Thats the whole story with a non-nationalistic view.
I dont know if you like it or not.... I dont know if I like it or not...
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serbs go back to rusia were you belong you have no place in balkan..ur only welcomed as guests...thats all..........invaders of illyrian lands leave now
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DO you know how many serbs there are on the balkans???
9 million
how many albanians?
3 million
we can eat you if you want.
and when albanians are hostile towards the in general orthodox cultures in Balkans, then there must be something wrong with albanians. it must mean they have a middle eastern culture, and get th **** out of here.
Is that where we fight for 500 years? to have some turkified albanians here, in Serb lands who are even worse than turks and have destroyed every monastery in ancient serb lands??, ow come on
In whole balkans there have never been an Albanian empire, you were occupied or assimilating towards other nations who were more developed like serbs or greeks, How you can claim now Kosovo? dont listen to the stories what USA is whispering in your ears...
And basil I know you have lots of sympathies towards albanians, excuse me I dislike them, they can be illyrian they can be even Eskimos I dont really care about their origins actually, cause its all an invented story invented for geopolitical purposes..
I only know this
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now at once hellinism is also outside the borders of Greece you say, it has some truth in it...
but the Fyromians....they are now Hellenes too????? I think Greeks get crazy when you say this to them....
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Braveserb
"And basil I know you have lots of sympathies towards albanians, excuse me I dislike them, they can be illyrian they can be even Eskimos I dont really care about their origins actually, cause its all an invented story invented for geopolitical purposes.."
-----------------------------
I have sympathies towards all my neighbors. I dont want to be part of that game "I like those, I want to kill those etc". I love Balkans and I really like Balkanian people. They have so much dynamic and so much history....that I cannot accept that some chlorine washed Agglosaxons rule our world. Of course I know that today Greeks can fit better with Serbians in their way of life... but that does not mean that I should hate the other Balkanians. Instead of destroying them, I wish they will be more developed in order all Balkanians to fit with all Balkanians. That is why Greek external policy is the first that fights for the integration of the whole Balkanik peninsula in EU.
For you case, of course you dislike them since war was some years ago. It sounds normal.
"and basil....
now at once hellinism is also outside the borders of Greece you say, it has some truth in it...
but the Fyromians....they are now Hellenes too????? I think Greeks get crazy when you say this to them...."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fyromians are Slavs (Bularian and Serbs), Albanians, Gypsies, Muslims from all the Balkan ethinicities and Greeks(Vlachs included) ex-communists during the civil war in Greece. That is the puzzle of Fyrom. No more no less.
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You are the old school blinded
by Religion. Thats why you dont
understand The Albanians in
Greece who are Orthodox.
You cant comprehend the idea of
Albanians used to be Orthodox just
like you and are Albanian Nationals
who have freedom of religion. We dont
want to make slavs Muslim or anything
like that.
The churches were burned out of
rage revenge ok. War is hell.
Serbs have done worse.
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You people dont like anybody who is not
Serbian that is why Yugoslavia did
not work. So go be only Serbia now.
Get a clue even Montenegro didnt
want to stay with you.
Serb when you stop looking at the
World with such great Skepticism you
will truly change your views.
You Serbs think everyone is out to
get you.
TO Basil the one thing that does not
make scence with your theory is
Pelasgians were the first on Greece
land. Thats what I have read.
I have also read that it is
agreed by most historians that there
language was not at all communicatable with
the next settlers MYcon, Dorians, ect. ect. who
all speak a language that you guys still speak today.
Pelasagian and Etruscan word for night
is Nat. Same with Albanian. Just little examples like
this make we wonder, since no other language uses these words.
Its the old old words that matter light light,day, night,
son because new words can always be taken
from other groups.
Look at how many Turkish words Albanians,
Greeks,Slavs have. One in the future may
mistake us for Turks.
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There is NOT even one clue that Pelasgians were not Greeks as there is no clue that Pelasgians were Greeks. The only think that is for sure... is that they were in South Balkans in big numbers. Common logic says, they were assimilated by the next newcomers...
I will find for you some articles. I am bery bored to look for them now
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Oh I believe many of them were
assimilated into Greek Culture, but
I also believe that there language
was diffrent from the other Greek
tribes who arrived because that is
what has been written about them.
The Pavlos guy who post in here has
said at times that only certain groups
of Greeks descend from them.
Whether Pelasagians or Greek speaking
tribes arrived first is not important
, but I did read that the Pelasgians were
first and spoke a non Indo European
language.
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"...The most significant among Hellenes are Athenians and Lacaedemonians. The first come from Ionic tribe, the second - from Doric tribe. And, Ionians are of Pelasgian origin, and Dorians - of Hellenic." (I, 56.)
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century
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Contrary to modern understanding, Herodotus was convinced that the Hellenes were not invaders, but descendents of Pelasgians:
"The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied."
Before recorded Time, (c. 900 BCE) but during an active migration era of prehistoric Greece (c. 10,000 BCE), a people came into the Pelaponnesus, presumably from the north, and settled around the eastern Mediterranian coast and its islands, Sicily, Lamapadusa etc. They were called "Pelasgians," which has several specific meanings, depending on which tranlation one might be reading.
The word pelasgian means from the sea. It also means hairy. And to top it all, it means springing from the earth... sticks embedded in the earth that spring up in human form to populate their surroundings. From this we can conjure up a race of people that came from the sea, wore beards, and were "indigenous." Hence, they were the aborigines who settled the Pelaponnesus, coming before the Dorians. One might say they were the aboriginal ancestors of what we now call "Hellenes" -- today's Greeks as they have come down through the ages.
The Pelasgians were successful in establishing themselves and their culture in the land and sea. Apparently they espoused the existing cult worship of Hera, as there is still to be seen the ruins of a Temple dedicated to Hera which they built. They are credited also with being admirable house builders, taking a different approach from the old, cramped design. Instead of a hut, they used large stones for the base making a drier, more lasting habitat, which was quickly adopted by their neighbors.
They remain important in the grand sweep of Greek pre-history. Some ancient myths are even said to have begun with them. The myth of Helios' harnessing the sun to his chariot is said to date back to the Pelasgians.
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Herodotus on the Pelasgians and the Early Greeks
[Herodotus, The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, tr., vol. 1 (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885), Book 1; and vol. 2 , book 3].
"....if Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body"
..and that means... Atheneans are Pelasgoi! Now if you want to doubt that Atheneans are not Greeks.... do it. I am from Thessaloniki lol lol
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That is what I have found with a quick search....
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Your comment Basil, that you dont want that some chlorine Anglosaxions rule over the Balkans...
I agree with that very much. but thats exactly the main point whats going on with serbs.
The Serbs people dont want that other, the WEsterns decide who will be independant who will be against us, for us etc etc..
We decide on our own cause its our area. But I noticed that other Balkanians the Croats, Albanians,bulgarians, rumanians and so on, all are running and are pushed by USA, germans, they expect a lot from WEstern Europe, well SErbs dont, cause we are a sceptical nation .
Thats why everyone was against us, cause only Serbs rejected to Western occupation, we see it this way. We dont want that others can use as cheap workers for the Western market or I dont know what the plans are of USa...
Further, it were the Serbs, who had recently an idea of a unity between all orthodox countries, in this way we sould be much stronger than when we sale ourselves to western europe, but the other Balkanics were not very into this idea to be united....
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BraveSerb
"Your comment Basil, that you dont want that some chlorine Anglosaxions rule over the Balkans...
I agree with that very much. but thats exactly the main point whats going on with serbs.
The Serbs people dont want that other, the WEsterns decide who will be independant who will be against us, for us etc etc..
We decide on our own cause its our area. But I noticed that other Balkanians the Croats, Albanians,bulgarians, rumanians and so on, all are running and are pushed by USA, germans, they expect a lot from WEstern Europe, well SErbs dont, cause we are a sceptical nation .
Thats why everyone was against us, cause only Serbs rejected to Western occupation, we see it this way. We dont want that others can use as cheap workers for the Western market or I dont know what the plans are of USa...
Further, it were the Serbs, who had recently an idea of a unity between all orthodox countries, in this way we sould be much stronger than when we sale ourselves to western europe, but the other Balkanics were not very into this idea to be united...."
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I know... your only mistake is ... Milocevits dint use much diplomacy to achieve your targets.
If you want to have a voice.. first you must show that you comply with the rules... (even if that rules were set by the strong nations).
First of all to have pure democracy and then to respect minorities. Milocevits didnt convince UN for these two elements.
On the other hand, all the other Balkanians... hmm.. yes.. they show that very "friendly" attitude towards the world rulers... but they will pay for that as we,the Greeks, have payed for that the previous decades. They believe, as we believed, that friends are forever. They see Americans and English as friends.. lol lol Of course now we know them.. and believe me, I trust much more Balkanian people than those snakes. They will learn.. they will... it needs some years and thousand dissapoitments
The future of Balkans is EU and only EU and to be more specific... the hard core of EU! For the time being, some of EU( England, Poland, Bulgaria, Lithouania, etc)countries are sambotazing EU in favor of Americans.
Serbia should do easily and steadily those steps towards EU... and then you will be the rulers of your country and nobody will give orders to you... you new country.. Europe. Thats the only way.. because the "others" have become toooo strong to cope with their plans. Only a united Europe is the future ... of Balkans.
Of course if you are interested and you see it the way we see it.
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Braveserb
"We ARE already Europe, what do we need to join now?"
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EU. The Union is the future and the power against the present powers US and China. If you dont want to see American planes today and Chinese soldiers tommorow being around your land.... only a union can save you. The same of course applies for all of us since we are small states.
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Hahahaha...how could you compare EU with the US system? EU doesn't have even a common policy and EU don't have even army. There is also not a common mission about EU.
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"EU is for cocksuckers but I'm sorry for hell'en ass, vulgars and romas you because we shall destroy it!"
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the only thing Turkey succeed to destroy... was some Kurdish villages. Not all.. some!
You dont have the power to self control your own country... and you are dreaming of destruction? I think you are very optimistic..
"EU doesn't have even a common policy and EU don't have even army. There is also not a common mission about EU."
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...yet.
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Turkey has full control even beyond her borders. We can't know who is terrorist and who is not. Inferior banana republics like greece train terrorists against Turkey for money. So it's normal. Just wait and see how your money tap will be destroyed.
EU is full of american bases. Even only Turkey has more military power than the whole EU.
Btw, it's just a kid play for us turning greece into a blood pool and seperate. But if we do that, you will more turn into an american base against us like northern iraq. You must stay at poor EU for now. That's why your turn hasn't come yet.
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thats what our enemies always want for albania but just think before you act because albanians are stronger in balkan then ever...2 albanian stats.....and in each of our enemy country we have albanains that knw the regions and its tactics..........
"so my fellow dont hate me because I am an Albanian because that only makes me stronger"
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"dear friends why are arguening on something that is well known ....
1. Slavs Arrived in Balkans from 6th century and on..." by Dardanus.
Well, let me give you light about something. Before putting your fog at the front of ppls eyes, be at least better informed.
Slavs were here much longer before the 6th century, Bulgarians came in the 6th century. Bulgarian's Khan Asparuh is a grandgrandgrand.....grandnephew of Attila himself. Slavic people were unknown as "slavs" before the fall of the roman empire. Historians write that slavic people were on the balcans around 1500 years before the bulgarians came down from asia and called them "a mysterious tribe". The word slav came around the 6th century. Other tribes living on the Balcans apart from Illyrians and Macedonians were Dacians, Thracians, and Greeks, all who had occupied the area for centuries. The first time the word "albanoi" came out was 130 AD !! So forget about Albanians being ancient like greeks or whatsoever ...
Giving words from albanian which match the Illyrian language and taking them for PROoF is stupid. Albanian language might come from Illyrian, and not vice versa! This is like if bulgarians would say that greek alphabet is coming from cyrillic. Nobody disagrees about illyrians living on the balcans at the terittories known today as Albania Montenegro, this doesnt mean at all that Illyrians are albanians. Or will you say modern americans are "americans"? No comment. The softest way to call that is "absolutly stupid".
And of course do not forget that by that times the winner was writing the history. Means many things were destroyed and rewritten the way the winner liked it etc ... so do never talk about things and be 100% sure ...
One of the fattest thing was calling the mother of Alexander the Great albanian .... but I saw a similar wave which lives in that forum. "Let's name all great ppl albanians" ... I guess that's the tactic ...
About the others, comparing EU with USA ... who would like to become an american? just a natural born idiot ...
EU is built by different countries, different nations, different languages, different ......
EU does not want to become the European USA, these should become a union for better future. The goals of EU are clear, if they can achieve them is another story. The nations living in Europe are so different, that I personally do not believe that EU can become what is ment to be even in 100 years. Especially the eastern europe is so different. I am 50% german and 50% bulgarian and see the both sides of the coin. the 2 nations have nothing in coming. absolutely different in way of thinking or living. Not to talk about turkish people who have except a different point of view on things another religion too.
All countries on the Balcans had their highs and downs, so before bragging about something, think about the deepest **** once you were in ...
When you all come to the point that most of the nations were ruling among the others for some time and stop measuring your d*cks for a while, then maybe you will understand how stupid and pointless this all thread is ...
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P.S.: About calling the nations who want to join EU stupid etc ...
Well then how clever were the people who were sent to America (mostly prisoners etc) and then the slaves etc, when they all wanted to be americans? I guess they saw a better way of living if all the states become a country. So why not having a free borders, travel, trading etc ? You will all agree that it will never happen that people will stop calling themselves bulgarians, greeks, germans or so and will start call themselves Europeans only. That will never happen. This might be possible in a country with a 200 years old history like the USA, but the European countries were been there for ages and have millions time more history each one of them compared to USA.
So if u want to compare ... come in 2K-3K years, so we have the base for it
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P.S.: About calling the nations who want to join EU stupid etc ...
Well then how clever were the people who were sent to America (mostly prisoners etc) and then the slaves etc, when they all wanted to be americans? I guess they saw a better way of living if all the states become a country. So why not having a free borders, travel, trading etc ? You will all agree that it will never happen that people will stop calling themselves bulgarians, greeks, germans or so and will start call themselves Europeans only. That will never happen. This might be possible in a country with a 200 years old history like the USA, but the European countries were been there for ages and have millions time more history each one of them compared to USA.
So if u want to compare ... come in 2K-3K years, so we have the base for it
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Just to be clear: nations are a modern concept, which has been adopted after the French revolution. No nations before. So those great historical figures you all mention haven't got idea for themselves as people who belong to a certain nation as we today do. Our mistake is that we observe history from our point of view today. I mean about the misuse of history in nationalistic and fascistic propaganda.
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Although referred to as 'Slavs' and speaking a Slavic language, modern South Slavic peoples 'genetic roots' actually stem from a wide variety of genetic backgrounds, attesting the complexity of the ethno-genetic processes in Eastern Europe, namely the symbiosis of ancient, native Balkan populations with that of the 6th century Slavs. A recent genetic study [23] researched several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland. A significant finding of this study is that two genetically distinct groups of Slavic populations exist. The first group encompassed most Slavic populations except some Southern Slavs. According to the authors, most Slavs share a high frequency of Haplogroup R1a. Its origin is purported to trace to the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine from Ukrainian LGM refuge 15 kya.[24] The second group is comprised of southern Slavic populations: Bulgarians, Croatians, Macedonians and Serbs, who have a significantly lower frequency of R1a. According to the authors, this phenomenon is explained by "...contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs..."[25]
