I think TUrks are Albanians , cause in Turkey live lots of ALbanians.
In Greece Greeks and Albanians live very separate from each other, mixed marriages with Albanians do not exist cause it as seen as NOT-DONE!.
you Turks have more relationships with albanians knowing the fact, that ALbanians came at the same time as you Turks came into the GReek territories, cause they were and still are your assmates.
and yes KASTRIOTIS IS A GREEEEEEEEEEK 100%
and here question for the Albanians, why you have an two-headed eagle on your albo-flag dont you idiots know that the eagle is an ORTHODOX symbol, we the GREEKS use it and SErbs have it too..
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
We don't have Fustanella culture which is of Albanian origin but you have as your traditional clothes. Both of you speak two different Epir languages as well. Even Athens was an Albanian town during the Ottoman era.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Yeah you right Kastrioti was GREEK.
THATS WHY his soldiers families still
live in Italy today and are called
Arberesh and speak Albanian. He also
fought to freek Albania not Greece.
He was Albanian and the whole world
knows this including Greeks. Epirus
had and still has many Albanians. There
were Albanians even in Athens as he
just mentioned, but you Greeks you
just dont get it.
As for the 2 Headed eagle if you like
it so much dont worry it will be flying
all over your country red and Black.
Its a Bynzantine symbol. Albanians were
part of the Bynzantine empire. Albania
does not exist as a Islamic state, it
exists as an Albanian state.
When your idiotic mind is able to
distinguish between religion and
Ethnicity then come talk here. You
backward villager.
Heres a mind puzzle for Greeks. There
are Orthodox Arabs. Blows your mind
ha. cant comprehend? They must be
Greek right?
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
hahaha and from which sources this come?
from the high-educated professors of TIRANA?
HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Kastriotis is a GReek, he may be come from what is now called ALbania but he is a GReek, like actually whole Albania is supposed to be GReek!!!!!
and the Fustanella is definetly GREEK!
who was here first greeks or albos? yeah got it, GREEKS..we take nothing from anybody.
you albanians with your moron-heads think you can steal everything even history, get the **** out.
and WE greeks speak the oldest language of europe has nothing to do with the albanian language, thats a language on its own. albanian has more to do with Turkish. we dont have sj sjsj sounds in our language or this combinations XQ thats sounds more Azerbajani to me.
And according to international sources, 85% of ALBANIA is MUSLIM ,you fool!
only 25% are maybe christian and they are not even pure ALBĄNIANS but GREEKS. and they live mostly all in GReece. CAuse who wants to live in Albania anyway?
and now religion is not important, what an idiots you are. You dont even know what your religion is or what national identity you have, cause the albanian one is fake one and you know that. You just take the nationality of how the wind is waving isnt it? and to take fever of it, yeah this is THE albanian gypsy behaviour acting two-faced.
pf pf pf
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
why you albanians steal OUR history?
you were the only Balkan-nation who supported the Turks in their fight against ORTHODOX christians, cause you are the puppets of every Super power. Kastriotis fought against the TURKS, thats not ALbanian.
The WEstern Powers, such as Germany and England invented your “ancient“ roots to make the Greeks weaker, just what Tito did by calling Skopians, MAcedonians, while they are SLavic.
You albanians have NO connection with us, that would be a shame for the whole GREEK culture and civilisation. Are we on the same level with a bunch of gypsy-azerbajani beggars from poor ALbania?
You wish you were like us Greeks, thats why you are stealing GReek history cause albanians have nothing to be proud of.
re, what a brutality, saying KASTRIOTIS is ALBANIAN, what a malakes you are!
you have no brave history cause only thing you sissy albanians did was running after daddy TUrkey, remember that !
SUCKING THE TURK #### was to delicious for you a? you couldnt live without, thats why you kept sucking until 1915 when you became independant.Even with you behaviour you albanians always were the poorest nation of all Europe. So I think sucking doesnt work that much.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Show me Fustanellas of Ancient Black Greek army then.
Living in Athens was forbidden for Greeks during the Ottoman era. About 7,000 inhabitants of Athens had occured from mostly Albanians and a few Jews and Turks. That's why the oldest buildings in Athens were mosques. Even "Plaka" name comes from Albanian, and this map confirms that:
Orthodox Albanians already call themselves Greek so hypothesis of "Greeks are of Albanian origin" is probably true.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
other way around, idiot!
the orthodox albanians are Greeks
so those are ALbanians, of Greek origins mostly from Northern Epirus which is Greek area! but they dont see themselves as albanians, cause they know that they are brain washed by real TURK ALbanians, who oppressed their GREEK identity!
the origins of Foustanella is yet not clear, some sources say it derives from ancient Greeks or Romans, albanians took that over.
the oldest buildings in Athens are defintely not mosques, maybe in ALbania, but we are GREECE, remember?!!!
and those albanians are kicked out, now we have only immigrant albnians who work for us...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
greeks should be ashame of thier selves because when it comes to the liberty of greece from ottoman empire were the heroic nation of arvanites(albanians) that contributed....in ancient time the ancient greeks not todays' greeks(gypsis) i mean the ancient ones always have seen thier Illyrian(albanian) neighbours as Barbarians...because they were much more powerful then greeks...."to destroy an enemy they say touch them in the soul" so thats what greeks did try to go north and occpy land of epirus then claim them greek same as east occping islands that once belonged to turks then claim greek ........you knw what greek when you talkn about albanians you have to stand up and just thing what has albanian been through during all the wars of the world history.....in every war albania was attacked from at least 4 nations at once.......and we never lost the culture, albanian identity...listen to this
ALbania will always be poor until its interests of the ancient albania are met. once again i say you and ur brothers from russia serbs can go f.uck ur selves cuz u are the worst nations of all time.....hatred ppl that world never seen before...
Once again i say good bless the Gjergj Kastrioti....for once he proved he was not greek when he entered KRUJa and said in his native language ."My country man i have not brought freedom to you I found it among you"
greeks you can die claimin things urs...but dont get albanian symbol Fustanella as ur culutre custome cuz it doest look good to gypsis
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
your whole country and culture is just a cheap and degenerated, misformed copy from GReece...
Like I said, arvanites and albanians are nOT same!
how many times I need to say this?
REal albanians felt familiar with Turks, thats why you were on their side during Ottoman empire.
the ARvanites, are hellenes and felt familiar with the GReek culture.
And there doesnt exist anything like ALbania. You were the last one who got its independance from Ottomans.
BEFORE you saw yourselves as TURKS, and a nation such as ALbanians just didnt exist.
We the Greeks were the first with consciousness of being GReeks and pride and we were already in 1821 independant from Turks.
this is the truth
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
you greeks never understand.....
At first albanians were Arbėr or Arbresh, then Albanian
the roots of albanians go back thousand years ago
Pelazgians>>Illyrian>>Arber(ALbanian)
greeks you should check your DNA .maybe you could have albanian blood runing on ur vains..cuz illyrian tribes were all the way to JANINA..
greeks ur such a looser just like serbs you never accept the reality you live in fantasies and propagandas stories.
read more about arvanites and why you think the are greek the only think that you dont understand is that in ottoman era they were fighing ottomans while some albanians were converting to islam then they turned agains its muslim albanians and thats why today they dont like albanians because the adopted the religion by they can never change their ALbanian identity...they have albanian blood but different religion and if you are smart you would understand the differences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites
thats all i have to say to some uneducated greeks
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
you know what about history?
History is always written in favour of certain people who at that moment rule the world and therefor can change the historical facts to their purposes. History is not mathematics that you can say like 2± 2= 4 understand? there are different sides at every historical story.
due to this I dont believe anything about the connections with arvanites and albanians. You have no reason to claim arvanites cause they saw theirselves as greeks. Albanians saw theirselves as TUrks, ok?
WE greeks saw illyrians as barbarians anyway, just like all northern tribes.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
If you were knowledgeble enough then you wouln't have copy pasted a video with falsified statements but you would give us your own opinion on why you think he was greek. And why do the history books that are curently being used in schools all over Greece exactly state that he was Albanian? If you tell me otherwise then you're just one deep liar.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well don't accuse people of making up things simply because you cannot refute the Greekness of Georgios Kastriotis.
Facts;
Georgios Kastriotis. Greek Epirotian prince son of Ioannis Kastriotis, medieval feudal lord of Krugia, in North Epirus. Georgios Kastriotis was born on1405 in the citadel of Krugia. He became legendary for its tries to unify the population of Epirus and eliberate the region from the Ottoman invaders. He fought against the Turks for 50 years and he did not lost one single battle.
His figure was until the 19th Century, considered as National Hero of resistance and military success. With the illegal creation of the Albanian state in 1914, the unorganized and savage till then Albanian tribes tried to invent a medieval history in order to justify the existence of their illegal state. So during the communist era, the Stalinist regime of Enver Xoxha adopted the legend of Kastriotis forging the true history, and his origin.
It was a clear example of newly created statal forms which in the lack of proper history are forging the legends of other nations.
The Greek Epirotian origin of Kastriotis is easily demonstrated by simple arguments. Georgios kastriotis was cristian orthodox, in contrast with the big majority of the Albanians which are muslim (90%). His name was Georgios (ancient Greek name), and his surname Kastriotis (Kastro in Greek means castle, Kastriotis is called the person from the castle or the person with the castle). The majority of the Albanian names are Ahmet or Suleiman or something like that.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Get out of here you filthy greek...dont steal history..we know he wanted to liberate your asses TOO from turkish...but he would never be greek in 1000 yrs. Why did he Returnt to KRUJA Norht albania.....and fought Ottomans among his ALbanian blood brothers......He did not Carry BLUe and white flag
he carried the Blakc eagle in red surface.........greeks ur just another slavic tribe no wonder you have same mentality as serbs......same sh.it from same mother Russian sh.itt
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well we don't steal another countries history in order to justify our existence. Still waiting for any factial refutals on the Greekness of Georgos Kastiotis.
Don't worry the worlds educated people know the truth and how do you feel when you built a statue of Georgios Kastriotis in a city plaza??? knowing the fact the man was a Greek hero.
And no need to have a hissy fit, and start with the personal insults, then that's what you must also think of Georgios Kastriotis "a dirty Greek" and at the same time worship him as an Albanian heroe "by fact he's a Greek" well ain't that the kettle calling the kettle black sydrome.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well what can you do when you pretty wanted him to be greek but he's not. I am sorry greeks he didnt want to leave ur ass.es orphans in Ottoma time. No you can say whatever...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
HYMNI KOMBĖTAR
GJERGJ KASTRIOTI(SKENDERBEU)
GONXHE BOJAXHIU(NĖNA TEREZE)(MOTHER TERESA)
ISMAIL QEMAJLI
TĖ GJITHĖ SĖ BASHKU NĖ VENDOSUR NĖ DHOMĖN E SHTEPIS
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I've been totally convinced now that you're another racist Greek
whose trying to manipulate history just because you hate a certain
nationality. You think you one educated Greek but you're nothing more
than an uneducated moron who reads ani-Albanian and then u think
u know my history.
Your name is Arxidi not Arxilea(Arxileas was a smart one)
ARVANITES WERE ALBANIANS
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
looool
Skanderbeg (Turkish:Żskender Bey), is one of the most prominent historical figures in the history of Albania and the Albanian people. He is also known as the Dragon of Albania[1] and is the national hero of the Albanians. He is remembered for his struggle against the Ottoman Empire, through the work of his first biographer, Marin Barleti.
After a long trek to Albania he eventually captured Krujė by forging a letter[7] from the Sultan to the Governor of Krujė, which granted him control of the territory. After capturing the castle, Skanderbeg[3] abjured the prophet and the sultan, and proclaimed himself the avenger of his family and country. He raised his standard (that later became the Albanian flag) above the castle and reportedly pronounced: "I have not brought you freedom, I found it here, among you." Skanderbeg allied with George Arianite[9](born Gjergj Arianit Komneni) and married his daughter Andronike (born Marina Donika Arianiti)[10].Following the capture of Krujė, Skanderbeg managed to bring together all the Albanian princes in the town of Lezhė[11] (see League of Lezhė, 1444).
why the hell he will go in teh city of Kruja and not in athens or selanik or watever grek city???????
and why he united the ALBANIAN Princ and not greks???????????
AND WHY IN THE GODS NAME HE SPEC ALBANIAN FIGHTED WHITH ALBANIANS AN BE REDY DO DIE FOR AND WHITH THEM
( remember in ech batlle agains turks he fought whith his horse and his havy sword like all his soldier) AND WHY HE CLAIMED TO BE AN AN ALBANIAN AND HIS DIRECT DICENDENT THE ARBRESH IN ITALY
STILL TODAY SPEAC ALBANIAN??????
AND SOMETHING ELSE TOO DO U GREKS CALL
YOUR KIDS GJERGJ?????
I MEAN BEFORE OR EVEN NAW IF HE IS SUCH A BIG GREK HEROO..........LOOOOOOL
If u answer this questions u will see the truuth in ront of u and dont continue like this coz u only lie yor self and i think u now this very well
(Edited inappropriate content) Keep your trash mouth off these forums!
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Feb 3, 2007 8:13 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Hello Albanians dont argue with these idiots. They know the truth they are just trying to piss us off. The Elena one is a complet moron. I mean really dumb. Dont even respond to her period. I think she is like 12.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
You are right, Jomama. They only look to piss someone off, even on their own forums, when they ask others not to do it when visiting. Pathetic pieces of ****.
Sadly, there are only a very few sensible Greeks on these forums. That's too bad. They have been swallowed up by preconceptions and nationalism. **** them all.
"Unbiased thought and originality are good, blind conformity and willful ignorance are unforgivable."
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
greeks should be ashame of thier selves because when it comes to the liberty of greece from ottoman empire were the heroic nation of arvanites (albanians) that contributed....
-Honey in Ottoman empire there were two kinds of Arvanites. The Arvanites and the ?turkalbanians?. Kolokotronis himself called your ancestors ?Turk Albanians? because they were assimilated in ottoman culture, life and religion. Now do not make remind you what HE and the rest of arvanites did to your ancestors the Turkalbanians :P
in ancient time the ancient greeks not todays' greeks(gypsis) i mean the ancient ones always have seen thier Illyrian(albanian) neighbours as Barbarians...because they were much more powerful then greeks....
-Ok?. Really you can¢t be serious right? :P First of all the Illyrians had no ?great? civilization. In fact they were illiterate tribes who lived sacking the northern parts of Greece . It was after the influence of the Greek civilization to the Illyrians that increased their level of civilization. And please do not use the parenthesis to identify ?Illyrians? as Albanians because in fact it is impossible to prove it. Illyrians left poor findings for a comparison and linguistic evidence is equally poor. In other words what you¢re taking for granded in fact is just an unproved theory? just a dream of yours.
"to destroy an enemy they say touch them in the soul" so thats what greeks did try to go north and occpy land of epirus then claim them greek same as east occping islands that once belonged to turks then claim greek ........
-They were greek for thousand of years honey. All you have to do is read history Desendant of turkalbanians.
you knw what greek when you talkn about albanians you have to stand up and just thing what has albanian been through during all the wars of the world history.....in every war albania was attacked from at least 4 nations at once.......and we never lost the culture, albanian identity...listen to this
ALbania will always be poor until its interests of the ancient albania are met. once again i say you and ur brothers from russia serbs can go f.uck ur selves cuz u are the worst nations of all time.....hatred ppl that world never seen before...
- Really you shouldn¢t be talking about ?hatred?.
Albanians never lost their civilization? Their Albanian identity? When exactly did you ?remember? your identity? When living in Byzantium and adopted the Byzantium customs? Or by any means when you were butchering along with the turks the Christian arvanites who fought for independence? What ?national conscious? you had back then? What was your culture when adopted the islamistic culture?
Once again i say good bless the Gjergj Kastrioti....for once he proved he was not greek when he entered KRUJa and said in his native language ."My country man i have not brought freedom to you I found it among you"
- Kastriotis fought for the Byzantium Christians under the Byzantium flag and against the turkalbanians, your ancestors. That makes him your enemy honey not your defender :P
greeks you can die claimin things urs...but dont get albanian symbol Fustanella as ur culutre custome cuz it doest look good to gypsies
-Actually honey if you paid any attention to the ancient greek, the Hellenistic, the Byzantium cloths of warriors you can see the direct evolution of your precious ?fustanella? equal to the etyomology of the name of it :P
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well Nina, we Albanians do not have any identity. How about you?
Greeks call themself Hellens - identity - Hellen, the one who left the husband and...slept around! The question is:
Helen of Troy or Helen of Sparta?!
=====================================
As per Gjergj Kastrioti...You'll never accept he was Albanian. What a naivity.
"a crazy person goes to the doctor. He was convinced he was corn. After three days and three hours of session, the Doctor could convince him he wasn't corn. By the end, Doctor asked him just to make sure:
-So, are you convinced you are not corn?
-Oh, yes...I am all right. The problem Doctor is: who is going to convince the chicken I am not corn???!!!!!!
Lesson learned:
teachers teach who wants to be taught.
Books are writen for who wants to learn.
History is writen for who wants to accept it.
People can be convinced if they want to and the most important (our case) CANNOT be convinced if they do not want to.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Blessed Virgin Mary Assembly in Sterling Heights provided an honor guard for Cardinal Adam J. Maida of Detroit during an Albanian-American heritage ceremony. The event culminated with a procession to the memorial statue of Albanian hero Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg. (9/25/2006)
"O stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians
That we lie here, true to their laws."
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Some people do not understand the most important rule of the life:
When an argument is started to be "proved" from the oposite and people look for the oposite side on line such as: SKENDERBEU WASN'T ALBANIAN...well...they do nothing more than prove (even strongly) the oposite:
that he WAS Albanian and someone is trying to find proves he wasn't.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
is that so teuta? well this is ur style of behavior in greek forum about illyric descendants topic...exactly the same...all ur comment on the facts are all of these are lies..ok, lets now see about skenderbeg and lets see will u comment it the same way or u gonna offer anything that can support ur claims and refute mine....now read this carfully!!
Quote:1.
Fatos Lubonja calls 'Illyrian' Origin theory of the Albanians mythology:
"There was mutation of mythology into science and of science into mythology. For instance, the ethnogenesis of the Albanians was an open question among Albanian scholars during the 50s, but when Enver Hohxa declared that their origin was Illyrian (without denying their Pelasgian roots), no one dared participate in further discussion of the question".
2.
Fatos Lubonja says Albanian nationalism was started by Serb independence, not on its own initiative:
"Albanian nationalism doesn't originate principally as a necessary desire for liberation from the Turkish domination as was the case for Greek and Serb nationalism. Albanian nationalism starts at the time of the Russo-Turkish War (1878) which brought independence to the Serbs".
3.
Fatos Lubonja explains the development of Albanian hostorical myths about their origins & reveals the ugly side of Albanian nationalism:
"Among the main myths are those exalting the antiquity of the Albanian people and Albanian as one of the oldest languages. Since it was necessary to distinguish the Albanians from the Greeks and the Slavs - even to stress their superiority - the origin of the Albanian people was found to be in the Pelasgian people...(later Pelasgians were replaced by Illyrians). Consequently, the myths of the great Albanian men of antiquity were created, among who the most distinguished were Alexander the Great and Pirro of Epirus. The central figure around whom among whom the mythology of Albanian national romanticism was created is Skenderbeg..."
4.
Piro Misha also says Illyrian origin theory blurs myth and history:
"Consequently, the dividing line between myth and history was often blurred and not easily discernable.
As with any other people, the myth of origin, was of special importance to Albanian nationalist writers. At first these forefathers were the mythical Pelasgians. But gradually, while the Albanian national movement matured, the romantic Pelasgian theory and others were replaced by the theory of Illyrian descent..."
5.
Piro Misha deconstructs Albanian myths about Skenderbeg uniting Albanians and emphasises Skenderbeg's struggle as dedicated to Christians and Christianity:
"As with most myths, his figure and his deeds became a mixture of historical facts, truths, half-truths, inventions and folklore. Skenderbeg was made a national hero, although his actions had never really involved all Albanians. Neither Kosovo nor most parts of the south were ever included. An attempt he made in 1455 to take the city of Berat in fact failed. Therefore the figure of Skenderbeg needed some adjustment. In Arberesh poems he was not only the defender of their home-country, he was also the defender of Christianity. For 19th century Albanians, most of whom had adhered to the faith of Skenderbeg's enemies the religious demention needed to be avoided...
EXTRA INFO:
More quotes from scholars regarding Albanian myths about Skenderbeg's ethnicity:
Clearly, it seems that stating that Skenderbeg is anything but Albanian is dangerous. It is well known that Skenderbegs mother was Vojislava was the daughter of the Serb ruler of Polog. But this does not make Skenderbeg Serbian.
What does make Skenderbeg Serbian is the work of over a dozen West European genealogists one whom is a descendant of Skenderbeg and a bearer of both of his last names; he is Nobile Loris Castriota-Skenderbegh.
· Dott. Francis A. Burkle-Young, del Gettysburg College, Pennsylvania
· Nobile Loris Castriota Skanderbegh
· Dott. Nobile Luigi Gonella
· Lucia Lopriore
· Dario E. Maria Manfredi, del Centro Studi Malaspiniani di Mulazzo
· Bruno De Martin
· Don Carlo Notarbartolo Conte di Priolo dei Duchi di Villarosa
· Cesare Patrignani
· R. Kenneth Sheets
· Prof. Dott. Herbert Stoyan, dell'Universitą di Erlangen
· Nicolņ Tassoni Estense Marchese di Castelvecchio
This is the most complete genealogy of the Kastriotas that has ever been put together. According to this genealogy:
a) Skenderbeg is the great grandson of Branilo, the Serb duke of Kastoria.
b) Skenderbegs brother was named Stanisa, a contemporary Serbian name.
c) Stanisas son (Skenderbegs nephew) was also named Branilo.
d) Skenderbegs mother was Vojislava daughter of the Serb ruler of Polog
e) Skenderbegs sisters Valica and Jela mean little wave and dear in Serbian. Branilo and Stanisa are both Serbian names meaning defender and the one who stands, respectively. Note that neither Branilo, Stanisa, Valica nor Jela exist as Bulgarian names.
Branilo (+ assassinato a Jannina nel 1379 circa), di origine serba, Governatore di Jannina nel 1368. Sposa N.N.
B2. Stanisha (+ ante 1450)
= .
C1. Stanisha
= Despina, figlia di Musachi Comneno
C2. Branilo detto Bernardo (+ 1463), da prima musulmano diviene cristiano nel 1443, Conte di Mat nel
1450, Governatore di Croia fino alla morte.
= Maria, figlia di Paolo Zarzari o Zarderi
B6. Yela
= N.N.
B8. Vlaica (+ post 1444)
= Stefan Balsic
more:
QUOTE #1:
In Albania, a prince of Serb origin, George Kastriotovoitch Skenderbeg, fought the Turks with great valour as the prince of Albania.
Count Leopold Ranke
History of the Servian People
1848
Leipzig, Germany
QUOTE #2:
"...in the time of national awakening for the Albanians - Skenderbeg was as much of a Serb as he was an Albanian...in him there was much Serb blood. His mother Vojislava was a Serb princess and the names of most of Skenderbeg's sisters were Serb...
Mara
Jela
Angelina
Vlajica
and his brothers were:
Stanisa
Konstantin
Skenderbeg's sister Mara was married to Stefan Crnojevic, lord of Zeta, who with the Zetans helped Skenderbeg for 24 years in the wars against the Turks. According to the Catholic priest of Shkodra Marin Barleci, the Turks unearhed Skenderbeg's remains and distributed them amongst themsleves 'as souveniers'.
Paul Rovinski
Russian emmisary and historian
quoted from: "Glas Crnogorca"
1899
QUOTE #3:
"Skenderbeg's family was of Serb descent" and married to Danica daughter of Vojvoda Golem. (golem is an old Slav word, meaning "great".)
L. Defenbah
"Zeine Familie War Slavishen Ursprungs"
Brlin, Germany
1895
QUOTE #4:
The Catholic Albanian priest Marini Barleci says that Skenderbeg wore Serb clothing and wrote in 'Serb letters and Italian language' because the illiterate Albanians at that time could only write in Greek or Serb just as Skenderbeg "carried all discussions in the Serb language".
Kacic Miosic (Croatian scribe)
17th Century
QUOTE #5:
"Skenderbeg, a personally brave man was of Serb descent and was so useful, that he was respected by the Albanians, as well. He was the son of Ivan Kastrioti. His mother was Vojislava, daughter of the Prince of Polog"
Teodoro Spanduci 16th century Italian
quoted by: P. Rovinski
see: above source for Mr. Rovinski
The only book about Skenderbeg written by an Albanian before the World War I was written by Catholic Albanian priest Marin Barleci who is quoted by Paul Rovinski. As shown above - even M. Barleci an Albanian designates Skenderbeg a a Serb and not an Albanian at all. http://www.geocities.com/aia_skenderbeg/skenderbeg.html
lets see ur response
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well Nina, we Albanians do not have any identity.
-Good for you for coming out
How about you?
-As I have told you before you do not need to worry your blood pressure on greeks Due to a wealth of findings that Ancient Greeks left it is very easy to compare our language, customs and culture. In other words we do not have to imagine "theories" to prove our heritage.
Greeks call themself Hellens - identity - Hellen, the one who left the husband and...slept around! The question is:
Helen of Troy or Helen of Sparta?!
-What is that? An pseudoetymology of "hellen" from "helene" or a bad joke of homonyms :P
Your key question should be: Arvanites or turkalbanians, Byzantines¢ child or ottoman bitch?
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Frankish barbarians speak a latin language but that doesn't make them latin. Besdies, modern greek culture is stolen from Turkish culture and has nothing to do with ancient greek culture.
I can believe italians are related with latins but it's so obvisous that modern greeks have nothing to do with ancient greeks. Even (objective) greek historicians admit that.
This message has been edited by GreekSlav on Mar 29, 2007 7:57 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
1. What a stupidity discussing for a movie!
I am NOT discussing some bizarre sentences of "300" nor of "Alexander" movie...
I had often heard the best scholars in Tirana University making jokes for Lubonja and laughing at him. (including Plasari - one of the best - used to teach in France) I just didn't know why. Now I know.
As Lubonja with his stupidity denies what he wants to approve by saying:
..."the region inhabitated by Albanians"...
"tribes which are so different from each-other"?!.....hahahaha
(Is he sure?)
2. As per Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbeu...wikiopedia and ALL other sources are more plausible than the one you have chosen (exept M. Barleti). Still remains a mystery for me: was he Greek or Serb? And pretended to be Albanian??!!!! What a BIG mistery! A mystery that perhaps you might solve?!!!
(The real question: irony or sarcasm?)
I have been through this argument and given so many arguments that I refuse to re-start now. You had better search on-line as I told: Skenderbeu WAS Albanian and not the vice-versa; that he was Serb or something like that. Why am I telling that?
BECAUSE:
NOT everything can be said based in etimology of PERSON's NAMES.
In 1000 years someone may take me for American or Russian because of the name???!!!!!! Than what should I say for Slavs and their language similar to russian?
4. Do you understand now why NAMING places is very important? That's where the stealing of history begins. That's why Croats are trying to invent another language different from Serbian. Tomorrow it will be used as weapon to "fight" countries who are not trying to steal what is theirs. (The owner of a house who wants to sell it doesn't care that much for legal papers of property. The person who buys it is very interested in these papers)
5. Tell me your NATIONAL hero (if you have one)who fought for your country's indipendence!!! I do hope for you he/she doesn't come out to be Albanian as of many other countries where Albanians fought for other's indipendence...
6. Why do not tell us your nationality? Are you ashamed of it? If you do, pray tell us are you Illyrians or Slavs? I do have my strong doubts in this issue!
7. If Albanians were Turks, than Turkey wouldn't have existed; it would have been called Albania - I assure you about that!!!
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"In Albania, a prince of Serb origin, George Kastriotovoitch Skenderbeg, fought the Turks with great valour as the prince of Albania".
==========================================================
(????!!!!!!!!?????!!!!!!!!!!!?????)
=========================================================
Don't you think this is contradicting!!???
All those marriages of Skenderbeu's sisters!!!
I really NOW do beleive there is much Albanian blood in Serb veins than they know...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
hahahah...is that all u can comment from my post??????....hahahahahah
what a nice albanians names: stanisa, jelica, mara, branilo, vojislava....soooooo albanian....sounds as i m counting my family....yep, we are albanians ...hahahah
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
The only book about Skenderbeg written by an Albanian before the World War I was written by Catholic Albanian priest Marin Barleci who is quoted by Paul Rovinski. As shown above - even M. Barleci an Albanian designates Skenderbeg a a Serb and not an Albanian at all.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Some people do not understand the most important rule of the life:
When an argument is started to be "proved" from the oposite and people look for the oposite side on line such as: SKENDERBEU WASN'T ALBANIAN...well...they do nothing more than prove (even strongly) the oposite:
that he WAS Albanian and someone is trying to find proves he wasn't.
and then give me that answer....hahaha, how pathetic of u...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
To Nitkov,
as I told you: search on line and you'll see the arguments for Skenderbeu.
As per Barletti Marin,(not Barleci) wrote: Skenderbeu - Prince of Epir! Do you want to argue about Epir? THIS is challenging. Not Skanderbeg whose origin I know better than you. Do not bother showing it to me! Show it to your compatriots, will you?
To Pavle:
so Croatians were emerged on finding their Illyrian roots?! How lovely! It just dosen't suit them...(Havar - Illirian!!???)
Do not proclaim! (Nr. 1 rule of intelligence)
Let the others evaluate you and tell: how smart one is! Or how beautiful!
Not: "I am smart" "I am beautiful"...
...therefore sometimes the smartest remark is silence.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
To Nitkov,
as I told you: search on line and you'll see the arguments for Skenderbeu.
As per Barletti Marin,(not Barleci) wrote: Skenderbeu - Prince of Epir! Do you want to argue about Epir? THIS is challenging. Not Skanderbeg whose origin I know better than you. Do not bother showing it to me! Show it to your compatriots, will you?
u dont know a **** about skenderbeg and now purposly changing subject...noone wants to argue about epir but about his sopoused "albanian" origin....he was a slav!...now let see ur arguments since u wrote this above:
Some people do not understand the most important rule of the life:
When an argument is started to be "proved" from the oposite and people look for the oposite side on line such as: SKENDERBEU WASN'T ALBANIAN...well...they do nothing more than prove (even strongly) the oposite:
that he WAS Albanian and someone is trying to find proves he wasn't.
i m beating u by ur rules...and ur best response is search the net...u cant beat this...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
When I told you go online maybe was too much to ask.
Just read all the topics for Skenderbeu from the beginning of this FORUM.
===============
"i m beating u by ur rules...and ur best response is search the net...u cant beat this..."
==================================================================
By MY rules:
Let the others say that...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
(Dėrguar disa prej gazetave mė prestigjioze tė Evropės dhe
botės, si letėr e hapur pėr anėtarėt e Kėshillit tė Sigurimit
tė OKB sė)
Vėmendja e diplomacisė botėrore gjithnjė e mė shumė po pėrqėndrohet nė ēėshtjen e Kosovės.Nė duart e anėtarėve tė Kėshillit tė Sigurimit tė OKB sė, tashmė ėshtė njė propozim i adresuar nga ish kryetari finlandez, Martti Ahtisaari, qė i ėshtė bashkėngjitur dokumentit mė tė cilin ai ka vėnė kornizat e njė statusi tė mundshėm tė ardhshėm tė Kosovės,ka pėrmbledhur garancitė pėr pozitėn e pakicave, veēanėrisht atė serbe nė Kosovė dhe ka pėrshkruar modalitetet pėr praninė relativisht tė theksuar ndėrkombėtare nė Kosovė, me fuqi ekzekutive dhe tė interpretimit tė mandatit tė vet, edhe pas vendimit eventual pėr statusin e ri tė saj qė, edhe ashtu, pavarėsinė dhe sovranitetin eventual tė Kosovės do t'i bėnin me shume formale se sa faktike.Tash ėshtė nė pėrgjegjėsinė e anėtarėve tė Kėshillit tė Sigurimit qė tė marrin njė vendim rreth tė ardhmes sė Kosovės. Jemi nė dijeni se Serbia ka ndėrmarrė njė ofensivė diplomatike pėr tė ndikuar te anėtarėt e Kėshillit tė Sigurimit tė OKB sė qė tė pamundėsohet nxjerrja e njė rezolute tė re tė tij, me arsyetimin se, me propozimin e Ahtisaarit, Serbisė "po i merret njė pjesė e territorit tė shtetit" dhe se "po i hiqet sovraniteti mbi Kosovėn" dhe se e tėrė kjo, sipas zyrėtarėve tė Beogradit, "ėshtė nė kundėrshtim me ligjin ndėrkombėtar". Kjo ėshtė arsyeja qė,me qėllim tė informimit mė tė tė plotė tė lexuesve tuaj dhe,njėkohėsisht tė anėtarėve tė Kėshillit tė Sigurimit tė OKB sė, si njė punonjės i shkencės pranė Akademisė sė Shkencave dhe Arteve tė Kosovės dhe si njė profesor universitar i sė drejtės, me njė bibliografi relativisht tė gjerė politike dhe juridike, tė theksoj,nė vija tė pėrgjithshme, njė numėr argumentesh dhe faktesh historike, politike e juridike, tė cilat, nė mėnyrėn mė bindėse, flasin se Kosova ėshtė vendosur nėn pushtimin serb,nė udhė jolegjitime dhe pse shqiptarėt, si popull shumicė nė Kosovė, duhet tė gėzojnė tė drejtėn e vetėvendosjes,qoftė si e drejtė e njė popullate nė njė territor tė individualizuar, qoftė si e drejtė kombėtare e tyre. Nėpėrmjet tė argumentimit dhe faktimit tė kėsaj tė vėrtete,ky shkrim mėton, njėkohėsisht, tė argumentojė se janė plotėsisht tė papranueshme pėrsiatjet dhe projektet serbe pėr krijimin e dy entiteteve nė Kosovė ose pėr ndarjen e saj.
Sė pari, meqė Kosova ėshtė aneksuar nga Serbia nė udhė jolegjitime, pavarėsia e Kosovės nė asnjė mėnyrė nuk ėshtė nė kundėrshtim me ligjin ndėrkombėtar. Ē'ėshtė e vėrteta, pavarėsia e Kosovės pėrpara se tė kualifikohej si "njė rast klasik i secesionit tė njė pjese tė njė shteti sovran", siē shprehen serbėt, do tė duhej tė kundrohej, nė fakt, si njė "anulim aneksimi ilegjitim". Nė tė vėrtetė, nė kundėrshtim me ligjin ndėrkombėtar kishte rėnė vetė Serbia, e cila me 1912 e aneksoi Kosovėn nėpėrmjet pushtimit ushtarak,pas njė agresioni tė saj nė Perandorinė Osmane, "edhe pse qysh prej kohėsh Kosova kishte identitetin e vet historik dhe etnik,tė shoqėruar me legjitimitetin e ēlirimit tė vet, qoftė nga pushtimi osman(1912), qoftė nga pushtimi fashist(1944), edhe pse kishte integritet gjeografik, demografik dhe kulturor tė saj". Sė kėndejmi, nė vend se tė pranojė veprimin e saj ilegal qė ka bėrė duke shkelur "me tė dyja kėmbėt" ligjin ndėrkombėtar, me aneksimin e Kosovės, Serbia tash pėrdor njė argument tė paqėndrueshėm shkencėrisht, historikisht dhe aktualisht, pėr tė "ruajtur sovranitetin mbi Kosovėn" tė cilin, si dėshmojnė faktet, e mbajti nė mėnyrė jolegjitime pėr njė periudhė shumė tė gjatė, pa pyetur asnjėherė popullin shumicė tė Kosovės dhe pa i marrė atij pėlqimin. Kosova ėshtė pushtuar gjatė luftėrave ballkanike(1912 13), "nė kundėrshtim me aspiratat e shqiptarėve qė kishin shprehur nė Lėvizjen Nacionalēlirimtare 1878 1912". Shqiptarėt ishin kundėr pėrfshirjes sė tyre nė shtetin serb, pėrkatėsisht jugosllav. Kėshtu, Serbia, edhe pse "mori legalitetin ndėrkombėtar" pėr pushtimin e Kosovės, nė asnjė mėnyrė nuk mundi ta arsyetojė legjitimitetin e veprimit tė saj. Pėrveē kėsaj, qėndrimet posesive serbe ndaj Kosovės qė i referohen historisė janė dyfish tė pathemelta. Sė pari, "janė tė pathemelta nė aspektin metodologjik tė cilėsimit tė karakterit kombėtar tė territorit, meqė po tė merrej historia si kriter, me gjithė realitetet nacionale territoriale bashkėkohore, Hungaria do tė kishte tė drejtė tė vinte dorė mbi pjesėn jugosllave tė Panonisė, Bullgaria dhe Hungaria do tė rivalizonin rreth Beogradit, Greqia do tė vinte dorė mbi Stambollin,Shqipėria mbi Janinėn, Meksiko mbi Floridėn dhe Kaliforninė, Suedia mbi Norvegjinė dhe Finlandėn, Gjermania mbi pjesėt e rajoneve tė Shlezisė dhe tė Sudeteve, Danimarka mbi Shlezvikun, Iraku mbi Kuvajtin, etj., etj?. Sė dyti, qėndrimet posesive serbe ndaj Kosovės" janė tė pabaza edhe nė aspektin e sė vėrtetės materiale, meqė Kosova, pėrkundėr pohimeve me karakter tė tillė, "nuk ėshtė as djep i popullit serb, as djep i shtetit serb". Mė nė fund, ambiciet imperialiste me "tė drejta historike" nuk kanė mundur t'i mbrojnė Anglia, Franca, Spanja, Portugalia, Holanda qė, siē ėshtė e njohur, "me shekuj kanė mbajtur vende e popuj tė shumtė". Prandaj, "me shkatėrrimin e perandorive koloniale, janė krijuar mbi 120 shtete tė reja". Serbia ka qenė "nėn sundimin e Perandorisė Osmane pėr afro pesė shekuj (1389 1878)", Spanja "kishte pushtuar tėrė Amerikėn Latine nė fillim tė shekullit XVI. Edhe "rusėt nuk kanė pėrmendur ndonjėherė "tė drejtat historike" mbi Ukrainėn". Argumentet historike flasin bindshėm se serbėt "janė vendosur nė Kosovė me rastin e zgjerimit tė shtetit serb nė kėtė drejtim nga Nemanjiqėt". Nė territorin etnik shqiptar, pėr pasojė pushtimesh, nė Mesjetė dhe nė kohėn e Perandorisė Osmane, janė vendosur pakica sllave, turke dhe rome. Pakica sllave ėshtė shtuar ndjeshėm me "kolonizimin e dhunshėm nė mes tė dy luftėrave botėrore, megjithatė, kurrė nuk ka arritur tė jetė mbi 10% tė popullatės nė tėrėsi". Mbi bazė tė kėtyre fakteve, konkluzioni ėshtė shumė i qartė: ishin pikėrisht agresioni, pushtimi dhe aneksimi serb i Kosovės qė shkelėn ligjin ndėrkombėtar, e jo e kundėrta, qė pavarėsia e Kosovės "dhunon tė drejtėn ndėrkombėtare". Historia "ėshtė dėshmitare pėr politikėn shkombėtarizuese"; pėr "krimet e mėdha ndaj shqiptarėve gjatė viteve 1912 1918?; pėr "planet gjenocidale serbe pėr shfarosjen e shqiptarėve"; pėr "shpėrnguljen e shqiptarėve nė Turq" dhe pėr "shpronėsimin e fshatarėsisė dhe pėr kolonizimin serbo malazias" e tjera. Periudha 28 shkurt 1998 deri me 10 qershor 1999 vetėm sa "i ka tejkaluar rastet e veēanta dhe ka marrė pėrmasat mė tė pėrgjithshme tė gjenocidit tė pushtetit serb ndaj shqiptarėve".
Sė dyti, vendimi mbi tė ardhmen e Kosovės nuk mund tė injorojė pozitėn kushtetuese tė Kosovės nė ish Jugosllavi, megjithė faktin se ajo nuk gėzonte statusin e republikės por,ē'ėshtė e vėrteta, ishte pjesė pėrbėrėse e ish Jugosllavisė, me territor dhe kufijtė e vet, tė cilėt nuk mund tė ndryshoheshin pa pėlqimin e saj. Kosova ishte drejtpėrsėdrejti e pėrfaqėsuar nė Federatėn e ish Jugosllavisė, po sikurse republikat e saj, e jo nėpėrmjet Serbisė, sepse ashtu do tė kishim njė situatė paradoksale "tė inkuadrimit tė Serbisė nė Serbi dhe tė tri Serbive me tri vota nė Federatė", ndėrsa njėsitė tjera "do tė kishin nga njė votė". Me identitet politiko territorial tė vetėvetes, me kushtetutė tė vetėn, Kosova ishte njėsi konstitutive federale e Federatės multinacionale tė Jugosllavisė. Mosnjohja e statusit tė republikės pėr Kosovėn nuk mund tė anashkalojė faktin e "origjinės josllave tė popullatės tė saj shumicė shqiptare". Se Kosova nuk ishte pjesė e Serbisė dėshmojnė edhe kėto fakte historike dhe juridike: "Kosova nuk ishte nė pėrbėrjen e shtetit sovran dhe tė pavarur tė Serbisė me subjektivitet juridik ndėrkombėtar tė pranuar nė Kongresin e Berlinit(1878)"; "Kosova nuk ishte nė pėrbėrjen e Serbisė nė Kuvendin e Dytė tė AVNOJ it(1943); "Kosova nuk ishtė nė pėrbėrjen e Serbisė gjatė konstituimit tė saj si njėsi federale nė Kėshillin Antifashist tė Ēlirimit Popullor (1944); "Kosova nuk ishte pjesė pėrbėrėse e Serbisė nė strukturėn e Asamblesė Kushtetutėdhėnėse tė Jugosllavisė me rastin e shpalljes sė Republikės Federative tė Jugosllavisė (1945)"; "Kosova nuk u inkuadrua nė Serbinė sovrane", veēse nė pėrbėrje tė "Serbisė Federale nė kuadėr tė Jugosllavisė Federative", gjatė pushtimit ushtarak nė Kosovė (1945). Mė nė fund, vlen tė pėrmendet se edhe rrėnimi i autonomisė sė Kosovės me Amendamentet nė Kushtetutėn e Serbisė, akt ky qė ndodhi me 28 mars 1989, u bė nė udhė jolegjitime. Edhe po tė mos ekzistonin mangėsitė esenciale rreth deklarimit nė Kuvendin e Kosovės, mangėsi kėto qė janė dėshmuar,"mosekzistimi i vullnetit tė lirė", si pasojė e presioneve tė jashtėzakonshme politike, "e bėn edhe deklarimin mbi ndėrrimin kushtetues jokushtetues".
Sė treti, e ardhmja e Kosovės nuk mund tė kundrohet e krahasueshme me secesionizmin nė disa nga vendet e botės. Kėtė duhet ta kenė parasysh ato shtete qė ende mbahen tė rezervuara ndaj pavarėsisė sė Kosovės. Ato do tė duhej qė t'i kėrkojnė dhe t'i gjejnė "pikat e pėrbashkėta" tė Kosovės me disa vende tė botės qė janė pajtuar me heqjen e sovranitetit mbi territore tė tjera. Kėshtu, raportet ndėrmjet Serbisė dhe Kosovės janė, pėr shembull, tė krahasueshme me ato ndėrmjet Indonezisė dhe Timorit Lindor. Siē dihet, Timori Lindor ka qenė i pushtuar dhe aneksuar nga Indonezia nė vitin 1975 dhe atė "kundėr vullnetit tė Portugalisė si sovran i jashtėm", fakt ky qė e ka bėrė aneksimin e Indonezisė tė jetė ilegal. Me 1988, qeveria indoneziane ia njohi tė drejtėn e vetėvendosjes popullit tė Timorit Lindor. Singapori ėshtė njė shembull tjetėr qė duhet marrė parasysh. Ky vend u nda nga Malejzia me 1965. Edhe shembulli me Eritren ėshtė domethėnės pėr rastin e Kosovės. Ishte qeveria etiopiane ajo qė nė vitin 1991 ia njohu tė drejtėn e vetėvendosjes Eritresė. Rasti i Kosovės ka ngjashmėri edhe me atė tė Namibisė. Ndarja nga Afrika e Jugut dhe pavarėsia e Namibisė ndodhėn mė 1991. Prandaj, pavarėsinė e Kosovės nuk duhet krahasuar me secesionizmin nė disa anė tė tjera tė botės, ku lėvizjet secesioniste "nuk janė duke vepruar nė territore tė aneksuara qė nė mėnyrė tė njėanshme (kundėr vullnetit tė popullit dhe tė sovranėve tė mėhershėm) u janė bashkuar shteteve aktualisht ekzistuese, por ato janė duke operuar nė territore qė kanė qenė pjesė e kėtyre shteteve nė kohėn kur kėto shtete kanė filluar sė ekzistuari". Kėshtu ėshtė edhe me lėvizjet separatiste nė Transdnjestrovle (Moldavi), nė Osetinė Jugore dhe nė Abkhazi (Gjeorgji) qė nuk kanė bazė etnike ēfarė ka Kosova dhe qė nuk kanė pasur status autonom ose federal kur u shpėrbė ish Bashkimi Sovjetik, siē ka pasur Kosova kur u shpėrbė ish Jugosllavia. Mė nė fund, shqiptarėt e Kosovės nuk janė tė krahasueshėm as me katalonėt, uelsianėt, baskėt, skocezėt, korsikanėt", sepse ata nuk u pėrballėn, sikur shqiptarėt e Kosovės, me dėbim masiv, nga shtetet qė i kontrollojnė.
Sė katėrti, ekzistimi i Shqipėrisė si shtet shqiptar, nuk mund tė qėndrojė si pengesė pėr statusin shtet i pavarur dhe sovran tė Kosovės, po sikurse qė, tė sjellim shembuj nga historia e krijimit tė shteteve, "as ekzistimi i Rumanisė nuk qe pengesė pėr krijimin e shtetit tė Moldavisė ose qė ekzistimi i Francės nuk paraqiste pengesė pėr kantonet shtete nė Zvicėr". Mė nė fund, edhe sikur Kosova tė konstituohej si shtet i shqiptarėve, "ekzistimi i dy shteteve shqiptare nė Ballkan - do tė ishte mė parė hendikep, se sa pėrparėsi gjeopolitike e popullit shqiptar nė Ballkan". Prandaj, Kosova i pėrmbush tė gjitha kriteret e qenies shtet i pavarur dhe sovran. Nėse bėhet fjalė pėr territorin, nė OKB janė tė anėtarėsuara 34 shtete me territor mė tė vogėl se sa Kosova. Nėse bėhet fjalė pėr popullatėn, nė OKB janė tė anėtarėsuara 58 shtete me popullatė mė tė vogėl se sa Kosova. Nėse bėhet fjalė pėr pranimin ose jo tė shteteve tė reja nė OKB, nė periudhėn prej 190 2002, nė OKB janė pranuar 34 shtete tė reja. Nuk thuhet kot se "aty ku janė tė pranishme faktet, fjalėt bėhen tė panevojshme.
Mbi bazėn e argumenteve dhe fakteve qė u theksuan,nė vija tė pėrgjithshme, statusi i ri politik, juridik dhe ndėrkombėtar i Kosovės duhet tė jetė ekuivalent, pa asnjė mėdyshje, me pavarėsinė dhe sovranitetin, me subjektivitet tė njohur ndėrkombėtar, nė gjithė territorin e saj, pra tė sigurojė zbatimin unik tė ligjit, pėrfshirė pjesėn veriore tė Kosovės dhe tė ashtuquajturat komuna me shumicė serbe qė nė propozimin e ambasadorit Martti Ahtisaari kanė fituar shumė kompetenca shtesė, nė emėr tė njė projekti tė decentralizimit asimetrik, territorial dhe etnik, qė pėrkundėr qėllimit me tė mirė qė mund tė jetė menduar, kėrcėnon me rrezikun qė tė jetė i dėmshėm pėr tė ardhmen e Kosovės dhe integritetin territorial te saj. Pėr Kosovėn janė tė papranueshme persiatjet dhe kėrkesat serbe pėr krijimin e dy etntiteteve ose pėr ndarjen e Kosovės. Ato persiatje injorojnė faktin "pėr kuantume dhe proporcione relative demografike dhe kombėtare, shprehimisht tė ndryshme" nė Kosovė. Mė nė fund,theksojmė edhe faktin tjetėr se Kosova nuk paraqet "territor diversifikativ etnik tė karakterit enklav". Prandaj, "pėrthekimi i dhunshėm politik" i njė pjese tė territorit tė Kosovės", pėrkundėr kompromiseve shumė tė dhėmbshme qė ka bėrė Delegacioni i Kosovės me decentralizimin, zonat e mbrojtura pėr rreth trashėgimisė serbe dhe procedurat favorizuese legjislative pėr minoritetet, do t"i kundėrvihej drejtpėrsėdrejti entitetit burimor politik tė atij territori dhe do tė ishte nė diskordancė tė drejtpėrdrejtė me tė.
Eshtė kohė e fundit qė Kosova tė dalė nga njė "rreth i mbyllur" nė tė cilin ndodhet pėr mė shumė vjet. Kosova ėshtė nė pritje tė njė rezolute tė re tė Kėshillit tė Sigurimit tė OKB sė tė cilėn do tė duhej ta karakterizonin:
Sė pari, qartėsia politike, juridike dhe ndėrkombėtare e statusit tė Kosovės qė do tė menjanonte ambiguitetet nė lidhje me tė.
Sė dyti, subjektiviteti i plotė ndėrkombėtar i cili Kosovės do t'i hapte mundėsinė e anėtarėsimit nė mekanizmat ndėrkombėtare, pėrfshirė aty edhe OKB nė.
Sė treti, integriteti territorial i vendit qė do tė siguronte shtrirjen e qeverisjes sė institucioneve tė Kosovės dhe zbatimin unik tė ligjit nė gjithė hapėsirėn e saj.
Sė katėrti, shteti funksional i Kosovės qė do tė mund tė pengonte invalidimin e mundshėm tė tij.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
The truth about Kosovo: Arguments and fact for in support its independence
The attention of world diplomacy is focusing on Kosovo ever more. We have now in the hands of UN Security Council a proposal addressed by former Finish President Martti Ahtisari which is attached to the document that sets the framework for a possible future status of Kosovo, has summarized the guarantees for the position of minorities, and in particular the Serbian minority has described the modalities for the relatively emphasized international presence in Kosovo, with executive authority as well as authority to interpret its mandate, even after the decision for the new status, which limits Kosovos eventual sovereignty. Now it is on the members of the Security Council to reach a decision on Kosovos future. We are aware that Serbia has undertaken a diplomatic offensive to influence the members of the Security Council of UN in order to unable the adoption of a new resolution, with the justification that Ahtisaris proposal recommends annexation of Serbias territory and removal of Serbias sovereignty over Kosovo and that all of this, according to Belgrade officials, is in contradiction with international law. This is the reason why, in an effort to inform your readers and the members of the Security Council I, as a member of Kosovo Academy of Science and Arts and as a professor of law with an extensive political and legal bibliography, will highlight in broad lines a number of historic, political and legal arguments and facts that convincingly speak that Kosovo was occupied by Serbia in an unlawful manner, which is why Albanians, as a majority population in Kosovo, should enjoy the right to self-determination, whether that is as a majority population in an individualized territory or as their national right. By proving this truth, this article aims to, at the same time, prove that Serbias projects for the creation of two entities in Kosovo or its partition are unacceptable.
Firstly, given that Kosovo was annexed by Serbia in an unlawful manner Kosovos independence will in no way be in contradiction with international law. On the contrary, Kosovo independence even before being qualified as a classic case of secession from a sovereign state, as Serbs argue, should be considered as annulment of an unlawful annexation. In fact it was Serbia that acted in contradiction with international law in 1912 when it annexed Kosovo through military occupation after its aggression against the Ottoman Empire, even though Kosovo had its historic and ethnic identity, accompanied by its right to liberation, whether that was from the Ottoman occupation (1912) or Fascist occupation (1944), and in spite of its geographical demographic and cultural integrity. Consequently, instead of admitting its unlawful act, which she committed while violating international law in a bold manner, Serbia is now using an argument which is scientifically and historically unsustainable, namely to preserve its sovereignty over Kosovo, which, as proved by facts, she held in an unlawful manner for a long period of time without ever asking the majority population of Kosovo or having their consent. Kosovo was occupied during Balkan wars (1912-1913) in contradiction with the aspiration of the Albanians, expressed during their national liberation movement 1878-1912. In this manner Serbia, in spite of getting the international legitimacy for the occupation of Kosovo, in no way was able to justify the legitimacy of its act. In addition to this, Serbian possessive attitudes towards Kosovo which refer to history are unfounded. Firstly they are unfounded in its methodological qualification of the national character of a territory because if history is to be taken as a criteria, in light of contemporary national-territorial realities, Hungary has the right to the Panonic part of Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Hungary would argue about their rights over Belgrade, Greece would claim a right over Istanbul, Albania over Janina, Mexico over Florida and California, Sweden over Finland and Norway, Germany over Shlezi and Sudet regions, Denmark over Shlezivik, Iraq over Kuwait etc. Secondly, Serbias possessive attitudes towards Kosovo are unfounded in the aspect of material truth, since Kosovo, in spite of allegations of such nature in neither a cradle of Serbian nation, nor of Serbian state. Finally, imperialistic ambitions with historic rights could not be defended by England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, which, as it is known with centuries held many nations under their occupation. Therefore with the destruction of colonial empires over 120 new states were created. Serbia was under the occupation of Ottoman Empire for over five centuries (1389-1878). Spain had conquered all Latin America in the beginning of XVI century. Neither do Russians ever mention their historic rights over Ukraine. Historic arguments speak very clearly that Serbs were placed in Kosovo with their expansion under the rule of Nemanjics. As a result of occupations during the Ottoman Empire, many ethnic minorities, such as Serbs, Turks and Roma, were placed in the ethnic Albanian territories. The Serbian minority was greatly expanded with the violent colonization that occurred between two world wars; nevertheless their percentage never exceeded 10% of the overall population. On the basis of these facts the conclusion is very clear: it was in deed the Serbian aggression, occupation and annexation of Kosovo that violated the international law and not otherwise, namely that Kosovo independence would violate international law. History is a witness of denationalization policies; of gross crimes against Albanians during 1912-1918; for genocidal Serbian plans for the extermination of Albanians; for the deportation of Albanians in Turkey and for confiscation the lands of the population and its colonization with Serbs and Montenegrins. The time period between February 1998 and June 10, 1999 only exceeded these special cases and took the gravity of a general genocide of the Serbian regime against Albanians.
Secondly, the decision for Kosovos future cannot ignore the constitutional position of Kosovo in former Yugoslavia although Kosovo did not enjoy the status of a republic. However, most importantly, Kosovo was a constitute part of former Yugoslavia with a defined territory and borders, which could not be changed without its consent. Kosovo was directly represented in the former Yugoslav federation same as the other republics, not through Serbia because we would create a paradox as in that case Serbia would have three votes in the Federation, while the other units would have only one vote. With its political-territorial identities, its constitution, Kosovo was a federally constitute unit of the multinational federation of Yugoslavia. That Kosovo was not part of Serbia can be proven by the following historical and political facts: Kosovo was not part of the independent sovereign state of Serbia with its international personality recognized in the Berlin Congress (1878); Kosovo was not part of Serbia in the Second AVNOJ Congress (1943); Kosovo was not part of Serbia during its establishment as a federal unit in the Anti-Fascist Popular Liberation Council (1944); Kosovo was not part of Serbia in the structure of Constitutional Assembly of Yugoslavia when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded (1945). Kosovo was not included in the sovereign Serbia, except in federal Serbia within federal Yugoslavia, during the military occupation of Kosovo (1945). Finally it is worth mentioning that the abolishment of Kosovos autonomy with the amendments in the Constitution of Serbia, an act, which occurred on March 28 1989, was done in an unlawful manner. Even if we didnt have the essential deficiencies regarding the declaration in the Kosovo Assembly, deficiencies that are proven, lack of free will, as a result of extraordinary political pressures, makes the declaration for constitutional amendments unconstitutional.
Thirdly, the future of Kosovo cannot be compared with secessions in some other parts of the world. The states that remain reserved towards Kosovo independence should be mindful of this fact. They should instead look and find the common ground between Kosovo and certain other countries of the world, which have agreed to the removal of sovereignty over other territories. In this regard, the relations between Kosovo and Serbia are comparable with the relations of Indonesia and East Timor. As it is well known, East Timor was occupied and annexed by Indonesia in 1975, contrary to the will of Portugal as the external sovereign, a fact which makes the annexation of Indonesia unlawful. In 1988 Indonesian government recognized the right to self-determination to the East Timor people. Singapore is another example that should be taken under consideration. This country was partitioned from Malaysia in 1965. The example of Eritrea is also meaningful for Kosovo. It was the Ethiopian government that recognized the right to self-determination to Eritrea in 1991. The case of Kosovo is also similar to the case of Namibia. Partition of Namibia from South Africa and its independence occurred in 1991. Therefore Kosovos independence should not be compared with secession of territories that were not annexed in a unilateral manner (against the will of the people of the original sovereigns), which joined existing states but that they are operating in territories that were part of these states at the time when they were established. In this way even the separatist movements in Transdnjestrovle (Moldavia), in Southern Osetia and Abkazia (Georgia) that do not have the ethnic basis that Kosovo has and which didnt have an autonomous or federal status at the time of dissolution of former Soviet Union as Kosovo had at the time of dissolution of former Yugoslavia. Finally, Kosovo Albanians are not comparable with Catalonians, Scots, Wellsians, Basks or Corsicans because they did not face a massive deportation from the states, which controlled them.
Fourthly, the existence of Albania as an Albanian state cannot hinder the independence and sovereignty for Kosovo, because as we can recall from history neither did the status of Romania hinder the independence of Moldavia nor did the existence of France hindered the establishment of the canton-state of Switzerland. Finally, even if Kosovo was constituted as an Albanian state in the Balkans, this would be a handicap rather than an advantage of Albanian population in the Balkans. Consequently Kosovo fulfills all the criteria for being an independent and sovereign state. If it is about the size of the territory, 34 states with smaller territory are members of the UN. If it is about the population, 58 states with a smaller number of population are members of the UN. If it is for the acceptance or not of new states in the UN, it should be noted that between 1990 and 2002, UN has accepted 34 new member states. The proverb that wherever we have facts, words become unnecessary is not meaningless.
On the basis of these arguments and facts emphasized, in broad lines, the new political legal and international status of Kosovo should be the equivalent, without any doubt, with independence and sovereignty with internationally recognized personality in all of its territory, in the manner to ensure the consistent enforcement of law, including the northern part of Kosovo and the so-called municipalities with Serbian majority, which in the proposal of Ambassador Martti Ahtisari have gained significant competencies in the name of an asymmetric territorial and ethnic based decentralization, which in spite of its well intentions threatens the future of Kosovo. Serbian claims for the creation of two entities or for partitioning of Kosovo are unacceptable for Kosovo. These claims ignore the fact of expressively different demographic and national quantum and proportions. In the end we would like to emphasize the fact that Kosovo is not an ethnically diversifiable territory of an enclave character. Therefore the violent surrounding of one part of Kosovos territory, in spite of painful compromises that Kosovo delegation agreed to with decentralization, protective zones around Serbian heritage sites and favorable legislative procedures for minorities would directly contradict the derivative political entity of that territory and would not be in accordance with it.
It is about time that Kosovo gets out from the closed circle in which it was for so many years. Kosovo is awaiting a new resolution from the Security Council of UN, which should be characterized from:
Firstly, political, legal and international clarity regarding the status of Kosovo, which would prevent ambiguity in regard to it.
Secondly, full international personality which would enable Kosovo to seek membership in international mechanisms, including UN.
Thirdly, territorial integrity, which would ensure the extension of Kosovo governing institutions and consistent enforcement of the law in its entire territory.
Fourthly, functional state of Kosovo, which would prevent its possible invalidation.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
i m not interested anymore in ur pathetic answers teuta...u better shut up if u dont have anything to respond on my quotes posted above..
anyways,
small note, skenderbeg brother and his father died in hilandar, serbian monastry in holy mountains. his father gave as gift to serbian monastry a villages radostusha (today rastusha) and trebishte, in area of dolna reka, north east from debar...have a clue what posible connection could they have with serbian church?
dardanus,
small question about kosovo
what kosovo means in albanian? and why all albanian names of the cities and villages in kosovo are in fact albanised version of serbian names? there u go, map with albanian toponims:
so...what means gjakove in albanian (djakovica)?
what means rahovec (orahovac)
suhareke (suha reka)
janjeve (janjevo)
mitrovice (mitrovica)
koznice (koznica)
koritnik
kamenice (kamenica)
obiliq (obilic)
prishtine (pristina)
cicavice (cicavica)
i can continue as much as i like, almost 99% of toponims in kosovo are srbian, and albanized version of serbian toponims....so, if u were always there (as descendants of illrians) where are ur original toponims?
dont get me wrong, really have nothing against anybody, including albanins. as the matter of fact, in my house coming albanians from kosovo...everywhere there are good and bad people. only i dont belive ur illyric connection and ur mythology... hope to see some constructive respond, not patheticone as teuta provide...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well all towns names and cities names were changed during the arrivels of slavs in Stefan Dusan times in Today Kosovo(ancient Dardania.
Let me take an example....Today the Capital of Kosovo is Prishtina well in Ancient Dardania(Kosovo) it was ULPIANA some few KM away Prishtina which was Destroyed and Burned down by Stefan Dusan..in which in that time slavs wanted to burn or Loose anything that belonged to Illyrians(Albanian) Culuture...
So If we start and learn each of the Cities History then we will have to change the names to its ancients.
Like many Towns today in Kosovo have changed its names to its ANcient names.
Check the map of Dardania you will see Ancient names that were replaced by many Slavic names in KOsovo
The first question you asked me was "whats means Gjakova in ALbanian. And Gjakova was called Thermidova in Ancient time so you serbs changed it to Gjakova...Thermidova must have an ALbinan meaning but it has to be studied by arcelogigs.
Nitkov And Old Albanian man has once said to me in 1990....
"Today the nations around the Globe Trusts the Untrusted Serbia about ALbanian HIstory but there will come a day when Non of the Nations will Trust Serbia." Like it seems that time has come today..
nice map dardanus,
can u tell me what those ancient cities names means in nowdays albanian? any meaning? if u are descendants of illyrians therefore albanian language comes from illyrian, then those site names must have some meaning in albanian...can u point out at least on one...regards
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Thermidova must have an ALbinan meaning but it has to be studied by arcelogigs.
does some word must have been studied by archeologists (tought what archeologists has to do with ethimology) to be proved its albanian origin?
anyways,
if slavs has changed toponims (which is not true, esspecially during reign of stefan dusan...in that time albanians and serbs were equal infront of law while for instance vlachs werent)...since u claim that u are indogenous "illyric" population, how comes that in collective memory those names of the cities didnt survivied? no chance man...u need to find another explanation. thisone sounds as science fiction...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
ok, dardanus, i ll stop pissing u off...u just keep on dreaming...and still waiting somebody to refute numerous qoutes i posted above with relevatn things...it seems to me, nobody has nothing valuable to respond...take care
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I beleive you know the Illirian tribes and where did they use to live right?
Look the areas where:
Albanians - Albanopolis, Taulants, Dardans, Enkelejds, Dalmatians, etc. used to live.
Re the change of names:
illyrians were assimilated little by little the north part from Romans and South part from Greeks! In the upcoming periods, from Slavs and Otomans/. Somehow one very small part in the could survive assimilation and maintain the language and culture. THESE are today Albanians who speak ALBANIAN whenever they are. Therefore some toponyms are meanful in Albanian language.
Illyrian? - tell me how many words we have left (thank to neighbors' assimilation) - only approximaly 10 as a whole from which 5 are explained in Alb; 4 in Serbian (including here the word BOSNIA - from the river) and 1 in Greek.
VIRGIL
Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of ALBAN fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.
(from Aeneid, trans. by John Dryden)
SO WHY ARE THEY EXPLAINED IN ALBANIAN IF ALBANIANS NEVER EXISTED AS ILLYRIANS?!
As per toponims:
Kosovo - is not Kosovo in Albanian is in Serb. In Albanian is RRafshi i Dukagjinit "Plane of Duke of Gjin" because his pertinance from Peje to Gjakove/.
Prishtina - in Albanian used to be Ulpiana - ul(k) - alb. wolf
Prizren - Theranda - (from where Tirana derives) Scholars think is because of "tir ane" which is an old custom of working the fur fibre.
Kruje - born place of Skenderbeu - Krua - water fountain, source, spring (eventhough not 100% sure)
Mountains: dhembel - dhemb - tooth
bjeshket e namuna - cursed alps
Gryka e Rugoves - Rugova Valley
ADRIATIC sea - from Illyrian Adrian tribe
rIVER vALBONE - Vale - wave
As per Dardani - you know
Also Albanos - which means: white or Day break in Albanian.
Shkoder -The origins of the city's name remain shrouded in mystery. Some scholars believe that the name derives from "Shko-drin" - sco-dra (lat) which means "where Drin goes", Drin being the Drin river that connects with the Buna river next to the castle of Rozafa. Others believe the name has a Latin root. Another hypothesis claims that the name "Skodra" was used even before the area was occupied by the Romans.
Shkodėr was founded around the 4th century BC. This was the site of the Illyrian tribe Labeates (hence Laberi in Alb. and Lab - inhabitants) as well as the capital of the kingdom of King Gentius and that of Queen Teuta. In the year 168 BC, the city was taken by the Romans and it became an important trade and military route (Wikiop)
Shkodėr soon became Duklja's capital during the reign of Saint John Vladimir in the second half of the 10th century who defended the city from the menacing ARBANASS tribes. John had to briefly surrender Duklja to the Bulgarian ruler Samuil.
Arbatus - Arberi - Arbana - is a last name in today's Albanians Also is beleived to have been the old name of Berat - but is still debatable
Berat (Albanian: Berat or Berati, Greek: Βεράτι Verati) is a town located in south-central Albania at 40°42′N, 19°57′E. It has a population of around 45,500 people (2003 est). It is the capital of both the District of Berat and the larger County of Berat. (wikiop)
Berat lies on the right bank of the river Osum, a short distance from the point where it is joined by the Molisht river. It is remarkable Ottoman town, with a wealth of beautiful buildings of the highest architectural and historical interest. The pine forests above the city, on the slopes of the towering Tomori mountains, provide a backdrop of appropriate grandeur. The Osumi river has cut a 915-metre deep gorge through the limestone rock on the west side of the valley to form a precipitous natural fortress, around which the town was built on several river terraces.
According to legend, the Tomorr mountain was originally a giant, who fought with another giant, called Shpirag over a young woman. They killed each other and the girl drowned in her tears, which then became the Osum river.
Mount Shpirag, named after the second giant, is on the left bank of the gorge, above the district of Gorica. Berati is known to Albanians as 'The City of a Thousand Windows' a similar epithet to that sometimes applied to Gjirokastra, The City of Two Thousand Steps, and has a mixture of Orthodox, Muslim and Vlach inhabitants.
Epidamus and Apolloni - Greek due to Greek colonisers
EPIR - I am not sure because must mean something in Greece but in Alb. means E PIRE (toke) - dry land
If I want to speculate I can also say:
tetove - (alb) tete - number 8
Shkup/Skopje/ Scopi -in that map - (alb) shkop - stick
Ulqin - Ulki (old Alb) - wolf
etc,...
That map is in Latin but cannot escape Taulantis, Dardanus, Lebaetes...etc.
The question is: due to ALL THESE invasions I AM surprised ALBANIANS AND THEIR LANGUAGE STILL exist(!)
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
all u do is speculation...u make me laugh with ur lingustic observations...ALBANIAN LANGUAGE COULDNT NOT BE DESCENDANT OF ILLYRIAN BECAUSE THOSE 2 LANGUAGEs BELONGS TO DIFFERENT BRANCHES(ILLYRIAN-CENTUM, ALBANIAN-SATEM)...read about ur origins:
For instance, the ethnogenesis of the Albanians was an open question among Albanian scholars in the 1950s, but when Enver Hoxha declared that their origin was Illyrian (without denying their Pelasgian roots), no one dared participate in any further discussion of the question. During the Communist era, literary and artistic activity as well as academic studies (especially historic and linguistic studies) all adhered to this pattern. By this means a virtual world was created in which Albanians lived within the propaganda framework of the part and of the literary, artistic and academic works, which pervaded schools, libraries, cinemas, theaters and exhibitions.
Fatos Lubonja
Between the Glory of a Virtual World & the Misery of a Real World
so, it was just for political purpose in order to claim lands that illyrian inhabit..
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
o how some people can rape and abuse history, I get surprised everyday...
DO you ALbanians have any comment on the article posted by Nitkov?
The prove that Illyrian is a centum language and ALbanian satem sounds possible to me.
Satem languages are those with SJ-sound, this is common in INdo-european languages like Slavic, IRanian and...ALbanian.
Further Illyrians were a tribe and assimilated with Slavs, So the modern populations of Yugoslavia, are mixed up Romans-Illyrians-Slav.
Albanians appear in 1300 BC in balkan peninsula and therefore have no connection with the illyrians.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
what did God send one Albanian in 1300 in Balkans..
Albanians were Arber or Arbresh that was the name of Albanians...at that time......Albania did not exist at that time ARBERIA did...which later changed its' name to ALbania. Slavs lisen... the Romans weakened the Illyrians because otherwise you would have never entered Balkans in first place. You people from all that Carpathian Mountain to Enter the beatiful Illyrian Lands.
Albanian is the only Survived Language of Illyrians ....Accept it or Deny it.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
You asked me for the connection of words (Etymology) in that map. I gave it to you. If you want to discuss that Albanians ARE NOT illyrian...(again the contrary(!) let me tell you something for Lubonja first:
-he was in prison during Hoxha's system condemned for 20-25 years.
He would be against Hoxha in everything for the very sake of it. If Hoxha would have stated Albanians are Russians Lubonja would have been the opponent. Also while in prison time he got somehow more stupid and weirdie than he used to be...(guess why!!!!)
Now some info for you re: Illyrian Language ONCE and FOREVER NOT to say Illyrian was CENTUM because no one knows yet. So the crap you offered me as a material doesn't have any value!!!!
========================================
"The Illyrian languages are a group of Indo-European languages that were spoken in the western part of the Balkans [1] in former times by ethnic groups identified as Illyrians: Delmatae, Pannoni, Illyrioi, Autariates, Taulanti (see List of Illyrian tribes). The Illyrian LANGUAGES (is in plural Nitkov - which lets us imply that many Illyrian languages - dialects might have existed) are generally, but NOT UNANIMOUSLY reckoned as centum languages.
Some sound-changes and other language features are deduced from what remains of the Illyrian languages, but because NO writings in Illyrian are known, there is not sufficient evidence to clarify its place within the Indo-European language family aside from its PROBABLE centum nature. Because of the uncertainty, most sources provisionally place Illyrian on its own branch of Indo-European, though its relation to other languages, ancient and modern, CONTINUES to be studied and debated.
(DO YOU PAVLE REMEMBER WHEN I ASKED WHAT DOES ILLYRIAN LANGUAGE LOOK LIKE?) NOBODY knows because only A FEW words are left...
A grouping of Illyrian with the Messapian language has been proposed for about a century, but remains an unproven hypothesis. The theory is based on classical sources, archaeology, as well as onomastic considerations. Messapian material culture bears a number of similarities to Illyrian material culture. Some Messapian anthroponyms have close Illyrian equivalents.
A relation to the Venetic language and Liburnian language, once spoken in northeastern Italy and Liburnia respectively, is also proposed.
A grouping of Illyrian with the Thracian and Dacian language in a "Thraco-Illyrian" group or branch---an idea popular in the first half of the 20th century---is now generally rejected due to a lack of sustaining evidence, and due to what may be evidence to the contrary
Yet it was not Greek, Celtic, Thracian, or Paionian, but Latin that would come to displace Illyrian above the Jireček line. The Romans conquered all the lands in which Illyrian was spoken, and it is quite possible that Illyrian became extinct early in the Common era, perhaps even before the Slavic invasion of the Balkans. However, this is disputed by other scholars and linguists who maintain that the living Albanian language is a surviving Illyrian language. (WIkiopedia)
=======================================
Indo-European language spoken in pre-Roman times along the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea and in southeastern ITALY. The language of the Illyrian fragments found in Italy is usually called MESSAPIK, or Messapian. Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian. See also Messapic language. (Encyklopedia Britanica)
==================================================
Morphology of Illyrian is scarcely known. Ancient noun stems *a, *o and consonant stems are definitely present. Nominal formants used for adjectives and participles include -nd-, -nt-, -r-, -st- and others.
The set of Indo-European vowels *a, *e, *o became a, e in Illyrian. Most of diphthongs were well preserved, as well as the sonant sounds. Indo-European voiced aspirates coincided with simple voiced consonants. It is still unknown whether Illyrian was a satem or a centum language.
(Indo-European Chronology (Balkan)
Paleo-Balkan Languages (essay)
Illyrian Glossary
Links )
=====================================================
Only a few Illyrian words are cited in Classical sources by Roman or Greek writers:
-brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. ALB. bėrsi
-mantķa, "bramblebush"; cf. ALB. (Tosk) mėn "mulberry bush", (Gheg) mandė
-oseriates, "lakes"; akin to Old Church Slavonic ozero (SERB-CROAT jezero), Lith ẽeras, OPruss assaran, GK Akéroun "river in the underworld"
-rhinos, "fog, cloud"; cf. ALB. ren, mod. Alb re "cloud"
-sabaia, sabaium, sabaius, "a type of beer"; akin to Eng sap, LAT. sapere "to taste", Skt sabar "sap, juice, nektar", Avest. viāpa "having poisonous juices", Arm ham, GREEK apalós "tender, delicate", Old Church SLAVONIC sveptǔ "bee's honey"
-sibina (Lat.), sibyna (Lat.), sybina (Lat.); σιβυνη (Gk.), σιβυνης (Gk.), συβινη (Gk.), ζιβυνη (Gk.): "a hunting spear", generally, "a spear", "pike"; an Illyrian word according to Festius, citing Ennius; is compared to συβηνη (Gk.), "flute case", a word found in Aristophanes' Thesmophoriazusai; the word appears in the context of a barbarian speaking. Akin to Persian zōpīn, Arm səvīn "spit"
-tertigio, "merchant"; Old Church Slavonic trĭgĭ (Serb-Croat trg), Lith tirgus (ALB treg "market" is a borrowing from archaic SLAVIC *trǔgǔ [2])
Some additional words have been extracted by linguists from toponyms, hydronyms, anthroponyms, etc.
-lośgeon, "a pool"; cf. ALB lag "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" (< PA *lauga), lėgatė "pool" (< PA *leugatā), lakshte "dew" (< PA *laugista); further akin to Lith liűgas "marsh", OSl lua "pool" [3]
-teuta < from the Illyrian personal name Teuta< PIE *teuta-, "people"
-Bosona, "running water" (Possible origin of the name "Bosnia", in Bosnian; Bosna)
Source: Wikiopedia;
Root / lemma: ambhi, m̥bhi
English meaning: around, from both sides
Material:
alb. mbi, mbɛ `bei, auf, an' (G. Meyer Alb. Wb. 265).
References: WP. I 54 f., WH. I 36 f., Feist 74 a, 88, Pedersen Tocharisch 82.
Page(s): 34-35
------------------------------------------------
Now let's get back to that research of yours:
"The Albanian language and culture, including the shqipetar, dardan & dalmat ethnonyms are not European, nor are they Illyrian in origin either, as we shall see below. (?)Although the Dardanians were not originally Illyrians, they ARE the ancestors of many living Albanians & the culture-bearing population that brought Albanian culture, Albanian language & Albanian ethno-tribal identity to the Balkans".
FIRST:
the article starts and ends with Dardans as if ONLY they were part of Balkans by that time, without EVEN analysing the ethimology of the name!!!!!
SECOND:
Work done in Yugoslavia and Albania in the late 1980s and early 1990s and compiled by John Wilkes helped to bring an end to Illyrian-Albanian myth
In the matter of physical character, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m; female 1.53). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians.
John Wilkes
The Peoples of Europe: The Illyrians
Page: 219
Albanians DARK SKINNED???!!! How do they know the skelets were Albanians beats me! They might as well have been Thracians, Greeks or Serbs!!!!!!!!
(What was it???? 1.65 male??? Well, today a female 1.65 in Albania is considered short!!! Maybe by time passing people get tall??? If that's so, then also Greeks and Serbs must have been tall.
The skelet must have also been a simple Greek passenger or Serb walking in that area and killed!!!
..........................................................
And that material gives also some WORDS in Caucas which are Albanian!!!!
Some of them mean nothing in Albanian and some others...well, see below:
Arnauti (originally a Turkish ethnonym for Albanians used commonly by Serbs & Greeks, as well) - it's Turkish
Bushati - is a last name in Albania but it means nothing or at least I do not know.
Baboti - never heard bedore
Baka - - never heard before
Balagati - never heard before
Bali (4 shared toponyms)- (Balshajt in Albania)
Bashkimi (means victory in Albanian)- doesn't mean victory; the person who wrote the material need to use at least a dictionary - it means Gathering
Rusani - I think this is most similar to word Rusia...
Skala - oh, yes! The famous Scala Theater in Italy???!!!!
Shipyaki (Republic of Georgia; likely a corruption of Shqipetari )
(very disputable because shqiptari term didn't even exist by that TIME!!!!!
Shkoder (!) - I have given you the explanation in my above post. (not me as a matter of fact but Wikiopedia)
Shekuli (means in Albanian) - cannot give an answer? Means Century same as in Latin: seccolo (Sekolo) - Sekuli - in Alb. but doubtfuly the people of that time knew what a Century was.
AND I SAY: BOOK - IN ENGLISH COMES FROM BUKE(BUK)ALB. WHICH MEANS BREAD BUT THEY ARE GOOD HOMONYMS!!!!
...............................................................
I could have used Geocities.com as resource for defending the Illyrian thesis but I do not consider it VERY accurate since mostly the material for Serbs on that site is perserved well but the one for illyrians is disappeared.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Albanian is the only Survived Language of Illyrians ....Accept it or Deny it.
only theres one problem...illyrian language belongs to western branch and albanian to eastern...so i guess its not me who denys it but common logic and facts...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"only theres one problem...illyrian language belongs to western branch
and albanian to eastern...so i guess its not me who denys it but common logic and facts..."
Illyria stretched from Slovenia to the Danube river(today Belgrade) on the east and west macedonia(present Scupi/Skopje) all the way to Epirus(Janina).
Illyria had many Tribes one of the two tribes that Albanians come are.
Albanoi--Albanians from Albania
Dardani--Albanians from the KOsovo and Macedonia Region
So at the time Albanoi tribe lived in today Albania(west of Illyria)
To the east of Illyrians were a Thracians race. These races cant' be mixed with illyrian language.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"Albanian is the only Survived Language of Illyrians ....Accept it or Deny it.
only theres one problem...illyrian language belongs to western branch and albanian to eastern...so i guess its not me who denys it but common logic and facts..."
=============================
Bre Nitkov,
so stubborn of you!!!
Re-read my postings please and understand that Illyrian language is still shroud in mistery so as to which brunch of Indo-European languages it belongs to!!! Satem, Centum, Messapic, Liburnese, South Italy???!!!!!!
And that's because there is no gramatical rule to show us the gramatical or phonetical system of Illyrian language.
The issue gets more complicated when we know that there are DIFFERENT dialects (languages) of Illyrians. !!!!!!!!
Quesiton for you Nitkov:
Who are Albanians? How did they "usurp" ALL THAT HUGE Land from Kosovo to Montenegro, Macedonia, Epir???????!!!!!!! Don't tell me they multiplied because we should have been 20 millions by now but we aren't but 5-6 million all around the world! Wars didn't allow Albanians to populate much land! Worse; they took land from Albanians.
Don't tell me Albanias fought to gain land and won - especially the land just near Adriatic sea!!! For that VERY sea most of wars between Great Empires have occurred. But all of a sudden Albanians who "arrived nfrom Caucasus" ....GOT NOT ONE BUT TWO SEAS! ADRIATIC AND JON!!!!! And no war is registred anywhere!!!!
Well, my simple logic tells me Albanians have always been there.
Let's suppose for an instant that Albanians came from Caucas!
In all the world, the "mother" country is more populated with people of that nation and perserve the language better than the "branches".
Ex: Greece and Greek minority in Alb. or Turkey!! (Which one is smaller and where the language is perserved as more cleaned); Sllavs and Russia; Albanians and Kosovo; Albanians and Albanians in Macedonia; Albanians and Albanians in Montenegro; Bullgaria and Bullgarian community in Fyrom; .....and so on. Now you tell me with Albanians in Ballkan happened the contrary!!! Albanians in Ballkan preserved the language and traditions but Albanians of Caucasus ("the mother") lost IT!!!!!!
Oh, please!!!! According to Wrilke's theory I could say Serbs and Albanians are the same 'cause they both drink RAKIA and also Greeks and Albanians are the same 'cause they wear Fustanella!!!! Also Greeks and Turks are the same because they both eat musaka!!! So????!!!!!!!
Please Nitkov tell me who are Albanians? How did they appeared??? (Not only Dardans - if is Kosovo which makes you sick, my friend, but ALL Albanians!) We are simply discussing something which I REALLY would like to know here and not drawing borders. YOU??
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
by the way, the thread was about skenderbeg, i chalanged his albanian origin by many qoutes, yet u changed subject on illyrian question. just let us note thseone, but no problem, we can talk about souposed illyrian origin..as fatos lubonja said, back in 1950 it wasnt clear among albanian scientist of what origin u are, but when enver hohxa proclaimed u are of illyric origin, nobody dared to oposed..and then ur generation was borned..learning whole ur life about illyrian about illyrian origins..let me ask u somwthing...i see many nowdays albanians have a names like ilir, teuta, ardian...can u trace any albanian with such a name back in 18th century for instance?
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Then why most albanians have more oriental names like: enver, hashim, habib adela, fatmir, in stead of Latin names?
in the article of John Wilkes, there is a quote of an Albanian who visited Sovjet-Union after WO II, and told the Russians that most albanians have slavic blood in their veins and they are proud of it.
That can be true, as lots of serbs penetrated into Albania from the north, but already serbs were mixed like actually all balkanians are mixed, thats why we are the most beautiful people from Europe.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
otprilike 30% kosovara su albanizirani srbi...znas kako je vec bilo za vrijeme turske, sve islo preko religije..prvo islam, a onda albanizacija..to i dan danas rade turcima u makedoniji, eno turci se bune da ih albaniziraju..
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"ok, what means arnaut in turkish? any idea?"
=======================================
I belive is the name Turks used to call Albanians perhaps because of Arvanit-Arvanos-Alvanos-Arnaut...But I don't speak Turkish.
----------------------------------------------
"Then why most albanians have more oriental names like: enver, hashim, habib adela, fatmir, in stead of Latin names?"
=================================================
I would suggest you to search at the last names rather that first names. Albanians have all the sort: Turk, Greek, Slav, French, Germanic, (some unknown which nobody knows where does it some from)etc.
I'll give you some and you tell me what origin are these last names:
GASHI
BUSHATI
ARBANA
DUSHI
GJONI
HOXHA
KOMNENI
MUZAKA
BOGDANI
MONE
MANE
KOKALARI
KUKALESHI
PLAKU
SHEHU
BIMI
VRIONI
OLLONI
KADARE
MARTANESHI
KRYEZIU
TERSHANA
LIBOHOVA
SIMAKU
AGOLLI
NEPRAVISHTA
MATRAXHIU
SHTJEFNI
ZYKA
PJETRI
MUHAXHIRI
MUJO
THEODHORI
TOSKANI
KASTRATI
TOPULLI
LILA
LAME
LAMI
KRASTA
ALIA
PAGARUSHA
NANO
BERISHA
SHKODRANI
QELESHI
NIKOLLA
BUESHPATA
CURRI
KOLONJA
KRAJA
MECO
ISMAILI
BOSHNJAKU
SULKU
IMAMI
POSHKA
GJOKA
GJOCI
BITRI
LEKA
PRODANI
SKENDERAJ
KOLA
VLADI
REXHEPI
REXHEPAGIQ
TOSKA
MULA
JAGODINI
QERRETI
DIKO
BODINAKU
RUSI
BABALIU
RUSETI
CILI
KORINI
META
NIKA
JORGAQI
JAHA
JAHO
NIKPRELAJ
POLOSKA
PRODANI
IKONOMI
KONOMI
CELA
CELO
JAKUPI
ETC. ETC. ETC.
sOME OF THEM ARE SLLAVS, SOME GREEKS, SOME TURKS....THE REST!!! I CANNOT FIND THE ORIGIN, BUT IF I AM IN A CLASS WITH INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS I CAN EASILLY DISTINGUISH WHO ARE ALBANIANS.
As per other issues including Skenderbeu...
I'll continue tomorrow because I am going out now as Saturday that it is...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I don't know the the meaning of Arnaut in Turkish...but Every Language has a way of Calling Albanians....
English---Albanians
German ---Albanish
Greeks---Arvanits
Turks---Arnaut(i have been told that Turks use Arnaut as an Offended word)
Serbs----Albanac...serbs aslo call Albanians (Skiptars) to Offend them.
and so on.....
As for Many Albanians having beeing named:
enver, hashim, habib adela, fatmir,
Majority of ALbanians are Muslims...therefore they have Muslim names
like: Arif, Hashim, Habib, Jusuf, Ahmet, Hysen and on...all these names are Muslim names and have meaning in Arabic Language.
During the 18 century you have heard of the names of only Muslims...because they were Governers of the Country or Mayors of Cities. No christians weren't allowed to be in power.But the illyrian names always existed in the Country.
regarding your topic Nitkov....
Fatos Lubonja could have said that to protect his personal interests.
Enver Hoxha
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Why do you post something that doesn't make sense...
1. John Wilkes wasn't alive during the WW1 and WW2.
2. Albanians only during the 70s and 80s were getting married to Serbian and Bosnian Women.
3. Serbs could have a mixed blood of Dacian(illyrian tribe of NOrth Illyria) and Vlach race but not Albanians having a Slavic mix.
As for being the Most Beatufil People in the Europe that is a fact.
Balkans are a beutiful race.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Because they were changed by force during the Serbian occupation of Kosovo..
and i will also add something here...
My lastname is Leskovci....because of my Great grand fathers who were ecxpelled from their homes by force in 18 Century from Sanxhak area which was an Albanian territory...and to not forget our roots, we changed our last name after the City.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"in the article of John Wilkes, there is a quote of an Albanian who visited Sovjet-Union after WO II, and told the Russians that most albanians have slavic blood in their veins and they are proud of it.
That can be true, as lots of serbs penetrated into Albania from the north, but already serbs were mixed like actually all balkanians are mixed, thats why we are the most beautiful people from Europe".
==================================================
I wouldn't say that if I were you. There are very beautiful people in Italy, Germany, Spain, France, London, Swizerland, (expecially Baltic area - Letonia-Estonia), Ukraine, etc.
As for "proud" Albanian who was blond!!! I don't know about that and Albanians like what is rare. Brunett is majority in Albania.
What I do agree in Wilke's word in here is that Serbs came from the North and that Balkans are all mixed.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"otprilike 30% kosovara su albanizirani srbi...znas kako je vec bilo za vrijeme turske, sve islo preko religije..prvo islam, a onda albanizacija..to i dan danas rade turcima u makedoniji, eno turci se bune da ih albaniziraju.."
====================================
I am sorry I don't speak Serbian but I can't help but "assuming" what you are writing.
30% of Kosovars are not Albanized Serbs but perhaps 30% of Serbs are Albanized Sllavs (any connention with marriages? I'll show you later on).
Do not mix religion with ethnicity. Are two different issues; Albanians are not Turks because are Muslums because Turks themself imported muslimanism.
And Serbs are not Catholics because belive in Jesus Christ but are Still Serbs and Not Italian.
The rest with Macedonian - I cannot guess what that means.
And just to make sure my guess was right:
can you translate what was writen???
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"by the way, the thread was about skenderbeg, i chalanged his albanian origin by many qoutes, yet u changed subject on illyrian question. just let us note thseone, but no problem, we can talk about souposed illyrian origin..as fatos lubonja said, back in 1950 it wasnt clear among albanian scientist of what origin u are, but when enver hohxa proclaimed u are of illyric origin, nobody dared to oposed..and then ur generation was borned..learning whole ur life about illyrian about illyrian origins..let me ask u somwthing...i see many nowdays albanians have a names like ilir, teuta, ardian...can u trace any albanian with such a name back in 18th century for instance?"
===============================================
I told you to read the posts about Skanderbag in Forum. Apperantly you didn't. If you had done so you would have understood that I don't like to repeat myself and discussing about the same issue offering the same arguments. Therefore I told you to search online as well and see how Skenderbeg is portaited.
As per his Serbian origin or something...oh, between Yugo-Sllavs there are differencies: Serbs, Croats, Sllovenians, Macedonians, Bosnians,///etc.
So the best thing to determine the "blood-Line" of Skenderbeg is to provide some more info about Tribalda family. Was this family "blue" blood???/
Read as following:
(Where is explaiend why Skenderbeu returned back to Albania and not Greece or any ex-Yugoslavian Republics)
On November 28, 1443, Skanderbeg saw his opportunity to rebel during a battle against the Hungarians led by John Hunyadi in NiÅ”. He switched sides along with 300 other ALBANIANS serving in the Ottoman army. After a long trek to ALBANIA he eventually captured KrujĆ« by forging a letter from the Sultan to the Governor of KrujĆ«, which granted him control of the territory. After capturing the castle, Skanderbeg abjured the prophet and the sultan, and proclaimed himself the avenger of his family and country. He raised his standard (that later became the Albanian flag) above the castle and reportedly pronounced: "I have not brought you freedom, I found it here, among you." Skanderbeg allied with George Arianite(born Gjergj Arianit Komneni) and married his daughter Andronike (born Marina Donika Arianiti)http://web.tiscalinet.it/delta/page12.html.
Following the capture of Krujƫ, Skanderbeg managed to bring together all the ALBANIAN princes in the town of LezhƫMinna Skafte Jensen, 2006, A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy (see League of Lezhƫ, 1444). According to Gibbon reports that "ALBANIANS, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their HEREDITARY PRINCE" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money". With this support, Skanderbeg built fortresses and organized a mobile defense force that forced the Ottomans to disperse their troops, leaving them vulnerable to the hit-and-run tactics of the Albanians. Skanderbeg fought a guerrilla war against the opposing armies by using the mountainous terrain to his advantage. Skanderbeg continued his resistance against the Ottoman forces until his death, with a force rarely exceeding 20,000.
SERBS' "CONTRIBUTION"
Although it is commonly believed that Skanderbeg took part in the Second Battle of Kosovo in 1448, he actually never arrived. He and his army were en route to reinforce the mainly Hungarian army of John Hunyadi, but the Albanians were intercepted and were not allowed passage by ÄuraÄ BrankoviÄ of Serbia as he had agreed that while he would aid Skanderbeg against the Venetians, he would not against the Turks. About the time of the battle, Mehmed II also launched an invasion into Albania in order to keep Skanderbeg busy. Although Hunyadi was defeated in the campaign, Hungary successfully resisted and defeated the Ottoman campaigns during Hunyadi's lifetime.
In June 1450, an Ottoman army numbering approximately 150,000 men led by Sultan Murad II himself laid siege to Krujƫ. Leaving a protective garrison of 1,500 men under one of his most trusted lieutenants, Vrana Konti (also know as Kont Urani), Skanderbeg harassed the Ottoman camps around Krujƫ and attacked the supply caravans of the sultan's army. By September the Ottoman camp was in disarray as morale sank and disease ran rampant. Murad II acknowledged the castle of Krujƫ would not fall by strength of arms, and he lifted the siege and made his way to Edirne. Soon thereafter in the winter of 1450-51, Murad died in Edirne and was succeeded by his son Mehmed II.
For the next five years Albania was allowed some respite as the new sultan set out to conquer the last vestiges of the Byzantine Empire. The first real test between the armies of the new sultan and Skanderbeg came in 1455 during the Siege of BERAT, and would end in the most disastrous defeat Skanderbeg would suffer. Skanderbeg had sieged the town's castle for months, causing the demoralized Turkish officer in charge of the castle to promise his surrender. At that point Skanderbeg relaxed the grip, split his forces and left the siege location. He left behind one of his generals and half of his cavalry at the bank of the river Osam to finalize the surrender. It would be a costly error.
The Ottomans saw this moment as an opportunity for attack. They sent a large cavalry force from Kosovo Polje to Berat as reinforcements. The Albanian forces had become overconfident and had been lulled into a false sense of security. The Ottomans caught the Albanian cavalry by surprise while they were resting in the shores of the Osam. Almost all the 5,000 Albanian cavalry laying siege to Berat were massacred. When Skanderbeg made it to the battlefield, everything was over; the Ottoman cavalry had already left for Anatolia.
A reason of this defeat of Skanderbeg's army, was the betrayal of his nephew, Hamza Kastrioti who was an officer of Skanderbeg's cavalry that passed on the Ottoman side with other Albanian forces and gave the Ottomans important information about the location and the organization of the Albanian troops. Later Hamza Kastrioti was captured in the battlefield by Skanderbeg himself, and imprisoned in the castle of Krujƫ.
(IS SAID THAT HAMZA DID THIS BECAUSE HE CLAIMED TO TAKE THE THRONE)
In 1457, an Ottoman army numbering approximately 80,000 men invaded Albania with the hope of destroying Albanian resistance once and for all; this army was led by Isa beg Evrenoz, one of the only commanders to have defeated Skanderbeg in battle, and Hamza Kastrioti, Skanderbeg's nephew. After wreaking much damage to the countryside, the Ottoman army set up camp at the Ujebardha field (literally translated as "Whitewater"), halfway between Lezhƫ and Krujƫ. After having evaded the enemy for months, Skanderbeg attacked there and defeated the Ottomans in September.
In 1461 the Sultan proposed terms of accommodation with Skanderbeg and a peace was concluded between them on June 22. In the same year, Skanderbeg launched a successful campaign against the Angevin noblemen and their allies who sought to destabilize King Ferdinand I of Naples. For his services he gained the title of Duke of San Pietro in the kingdom of Naples. After securing the Neapolitan kingdom, a crucial ally in his struggle, he returned home. In 1464 Skanderbeg fought and defeated Ballaban Badera, an Albanian renegade who had captured a large number of Albanian army commanders,John Musachi, 1515, Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander; Vladan Giurica, the chief army quartermaster; Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other noblemen and army captains. These men were sent immediately to Istanbul and tortured for fifteen days. Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.
In 1466 Sultan Mehmed II personally led an army into Albania and laid siege to Krujƫ as his father had attempted sixteen years earlier. The town was defended by a garrison of 4,400 men, led by Prince Tanush Topia. After several months, Mehmed, like Murad II, saw that seizing Krujƫ by force of arms was impossible for him to accomplish. Shamed, he left the siege to return to Istanbul. However, he left a force of 40,000 men under Ballaban Pasha to maintain the siege, even building a castle in central Albania, which he named El-basan (the modern Elbasan), to support the siege. Durrƫs would be the next target of the sultan, in order to be used as a strong base opposite the Italian coast.
The second siege of Kruja was eventually broken by Skanderbeg, resulting in the death of Ballaban Pasha from firearms.
A few months later in 1467, Mehmed, frustrated by his inability to subdue Albania, again led the largest army of its time into Albania. Krujƫ was besieged for a third time, but on a much grander scale. While a contingent kept the city and its forces pinned down, Ottoman armies came pouring in from Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, and Epirus with the aim of keeping the whole country surrounded, thereby strangling Skanderbeg's supply routes and limiting his mobility. During this conflict, Skanderbeg fell ill with malaria in the Venetian-controlled city of Lezhƫ, and died on January 17 1468, just as the army under the leadership of Leke Dukagjini defeated the Ottoman force in Shkodƫr.
Papal relations
Skanderbeg's military successes evoked a good deal of interest and admiration from the Papal States, Venice, and Naples, themselves threatened by the growing Ottoman power across the Adriatic Sea. Skanderbeg managed to arrange for support in the form of money, supplies, and occasionally troops from all three states through his diplomatic skill. One of his most powerful and consistent supporters was Alfonso the Magnanimous, the king of Aragon and Naples, who decided to take Skanderbeg under his protection as a vassal in 1451, shortly after the latter had scored his second victory against Murad II. In addition to financial assistance, the King of Naples supplied the Albanian leader with troops, military equipment, and sanctuary for himself and his family if such a need should arise. As an active defender of the Christian cause in the Balkans, Skanderbeg was also closely involved with the politics of four Popes, including Pope Pius II, who hailed him as the Christian Gideon.
Profoundly shaken by the fall of Constantinople in 1453, Pius II tried to organize a new crusade against the Ottoman Turks, and to that end he did his best to come to Skanderbeg's aid, as his predecessors Pope Nicholas V and Pope Calixtus III had done before him. the latter named him captain general of the Holy See. This policy was continued by his successor, Pope Paul II. They gave him the title Athleta Christi, or Champion of Christ.
After death
The Albanian resistance went on after the death of Skanderbeg for an additional ten years under the leadership of Dukagjini, though with only moderate success and no great victories. In 1478, the fourth siege of Krujƫ finally proved successful for the Ottomans; demoralized and severely weakened by hunger and lack of supplies from the year-long siege, the defenders surrendered to Mehmed, who had promised them to leave unharmed in exchange. As the Albanians were walking away with their families, however, the Ottomans reneged on this promise, killing the men and enslaving the women and children.
In 1479, the Ottoman forces captured the Venetian-controlled Shkodƫr after a fifteen-month siege. Shkodƫr was the last Albanian castle to fall to the Ottomans and Venetians evacuated Durrƫs in 1501. Albanian resistance continued sporadically until around 1500.
The union which Skanderbeg had maintained in Albania did not survive him. Without Skanderbeg at their lead, their allegiances faltered and splintered until they were forced into submission. The defeats triggered a great Albanian exodus to southern Italy, especially to the kingdom of Naples, as well as to Sicily, Greece, Romania, and Egypt. Following this, most of its population converted to Islam. Albania remained a part of the Ottoman Empire until 1912, never again posing a serious threat to the Ottomans.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Continues Nitkov,
as per marriages and origins:
Even though I don't like to repeat the same thing which I have already told.
============================================================
George Kastrioti (Gjergj Kastrioti) ( 1405 - January 17 1468 ), better known as Skanderbeg, is the most prominent figure in the history of Albania . He is also known as the Dragon of Albania and is the national hero of Albanians.
He is remembered for his struggle against the Ottoman Empire , through the work of his first biographer, Marin Barleti Marin Barleti , 1508, Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis, theeuropeanlibrary.org.
Biography
In English, his names have variously been spelled: George, Gjergj, Giorgio; Castriota, Kastrioti, Castrioti, Castriottis (James Emerson Tennent , 1845), (The History of Modern Greece, from Its Conquest by the Romans B.C.146), to the Present Time, Kastriotes, CastriotCatholic (World Encyclopedia VOL. XXIII, Number 134, 1876, Scanderbeg entry, Kastriot; Skanderbeg, Scanderbeg, Skenderbeg, Skanderbeu, or Scander-Begh)
His father was an Albanian lord of the Kastrioti family.
John CastriotaCamille Paganel, 1855, "Histoire de Scanderbeg, ou Turcs et Chrétiens du XVe sičcle", descended from an ancient family from Mat District , and controlled a principality including Mat, Krujė , Mirditė and Dibėr .Edwin E. Jacques, The Albanians: An Ethnic History, 1994, p. 179, lower Macedonia (region) . Voisava, Skanderbeg's mother, was from the Tribalda family, a Slav princessM. Barleti, ibid. from Polog valleylocated today in the north-western part of the Republic of MACEDONIA . Although he fought in the service of the Ottoman Empire, Skanderbeg soon switched sides and fought against the Ottoman Empire until the time of his death.
Service in the Ottoman Army
] Born in Krujė , Skanderbeg was a descendant of the Kastriotis, who were one of the principal families in what was called then, Arberia (today Albania). According to Gibbon Edward Gibbon , 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire , Volume 6, Scanderbeg section, Skanderbeg's father, John Kastrioti was a hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus OR Albania. John Kastrioti was among those who opposed the early incursion of Bajazet II, however his resistance was ineffectual; and the Sultan, having accepted his submissions, obliged him to pay tribute and to ensure the fidelity of local rulers, George Kastrioti and his three brothers were taken by the Sultan to his court as hostages. He attended military school and led many battles for the Ottoman Empire to victory. For his military victories, he received the title Arnavut Żskender Bey , ( Albanian language : Skėnderbeu Shqiptari, English language : Skanderbeg, the Albanian). In Turkish language and Albanian this title means Lord Alexander, comparing Kastrioti's military brilliance to that of Alexander the Great ). He earned distinction as an officer in several Ottoman campaigns both in Asia Minor and in Europe , and the Sultan appointed him to the rank of General by giving him a cavalry force of 5,000 men. Some sources claim that he maintained secret links with Republic of Ragusa , Republic of Venice , Ladislaus Posthumus of Bohemia and Hungary of Kingdom of Hungary , and Alfonso V of Aragon of Kingdom of Naples .
THE HELMET
The HelmetSkanderbegs helmet is made of white metal, adorned with a strip dressed in gold. On its top lies the head of a horned goat made of bronze, also dressed in gold. The bottom part bears a copper strip adorned with a monogram separated by rosettes IN PE RA TO RE BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus Principi Emathie Regi Albaniae Terrori Osmanorum Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (Jesus Nazarene Blesses Thee [Skanderbeg], Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terror of the Ottomans, King of Epirus). (And these are written in Latin, not even in Greek - therefore the Epir was Albanian - do you know the meaning of Epir in Albanian language???)It is thought that the copper strip with the monogram is the work of the descendants of Skanderbeg and was placed there by them, as Skanderbeg never held any other title but Lord of Albania (Dominus Albaniae)
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"Why are 80% of Albanian palcenames of Slavic origin?"
============================
Read my above posts for meanings of Slavic origin and Albanian toponyms for them. Can you also make me clear where are 80% of them??????!!!
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
1) The greek Language has changed over 5 times since ancient times.
2) Many words in Modern day Albanian today are pure Illyrian words thousands of years old, spoken at the same time when there were Hellenic tribes and the word greek was yet to spawn.
(It should be the ninth wonder of the world that we were able to continue one language for thousands of years)
3) Aristotle was an illyrian in greece (the equivalent of Einstein being considered American today).
4) It took you greeks 100 years to topple Troy which was founded by Dardanus of the Dardanelles, an Illyrian.
5) 1500 BC greeks went up the Adriatic coast and found well established Illyrian civilizations.
6) greeks were created when Hellenic tribes procreated with a non Hellenic peoples that very well could and probably were Illyrians..
7) Your famed greek Gods are Illyrian and Hittite gods which you greeks pencil whipped from us and in turn Rome borrowed as well.
8) Why is greece the only country in the world that makes you change your name to a greek name before you can get citizenship?
9) greece has the lowest birth rate in the modern world, the government is even offering money to greeks to have more kids, why is that?
10) It was greeks crying to Rome about Illyrian pirates hijacking their trade ships that started the Roman Illyrian wars.
11) During the Ottoman conquest you greeks were a mere stepping stone and were pretty much silenced until you cried and found help once again from non greeks (so much for your great greek warrior heritage)
Us Albanians have a valid excuse, Throughout The ages we have always stood alone, serbian oppression in the 12th and 13th century, then 500 years of ottoman rule followed by what is considered one of the harshest communist regimes in history and topped off by the serb slaughter of women and children in KosovA.
Thanks to America for coming to our aid while europe once again chose to ignore our plight as it did so many times in the past. The thanks we get for standing at the doorway of hell against the Ottomans.
I will sum this up with one saying "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST"
I've been to over 29 cities throughout America and europe and the majority of Albanians have become very successful in such a short time. Our family structure is unmatched, our will is unbreakable.
That is just who we are.
P.S
I used caps for those I deemed worthy
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Hey, the Muslim Albanians were not the only ones helping the Ottomans against the Orthodox, did you now that after the dynamite attacks in Thessalonķki 1903 committed by the Gemidji it was Greece that supported Turkey to massacre the Macedonian population there and the Jews and especially the Greeks in Thessalonķki massacred their Orthodox brothers that belonged to a different Orthodox church. That's why the French consul there said that some of the Phillhelenes would role in their graves when they would see the Greeks killing their Orthodox "brothers" and helping the Ottomans.
I just returned from my vacation from Albania and it was good. The Albanians from Albania are friendly people and they are not religious fanatics or obsessed with Great Albania like some of the Macedonian Albanians. I don't want to be misinterpreted not all of the Macedonian Albanians are like that I have good Albanian friends here in Macedonia. About the Slavic toponyms in Southern Albania, there are some Slavic toponyms like Novo Sele, Rrogozhine, Valona- the Old name of Vlora, we use the name Valona even today. Those toponyms exist due to the big trade line Ohrid- Elbasan- Southern Albania when some traders and workers from Macedonia settled in Albania and formed their neighborhoods. They lived there for some time and than most of them returned to Macedonia. My grand... grandfather was from Delvino, but he returned to Macedonia later.
Greetings to all the Albanians.
P.S. This year Albania was over floated with Macedonian tourists. Some of the people- salesmen, waiters etc in Vlora (Valona) have learned a bit Macedonian due to 100 000 Macedonians visiting Albania this year.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"""Hey, the Muslim Albanians were not the only ones helping the Ottomans against the Orthodox, did you now that after the dynamite attacks in Thessalonķki 1903 committed by the Gemidji it was Greece that supported Turkey to massacre the Macedonian population there and the Jews and especially the Greeks in Thessalonķki massacred their Orthodox brothers that belonged to a different Orthodox church. """
Dear Viktor my Bulgarian friend that was one interesting fairytale there. Unfortunately not backed up by facts, you people have lost touch with reality so much so you have resorted to creating fairytales to ease the pain when republic Ilydria knocks on your door, kissing the Albanians on here isnt going to ease this pain when they rip your country up
As for the Greeks massacaring the Macedonian population ? Wtf lol Me and my entire Macedonian family and their past generation are all well and proud Greeks, thanks for your concern.
Viktor feel sorry for ya for spreading lies........I really do.
I'll leave you to have your last say, you have major complexity issues.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Listen pagen, if you knew anything about Orthodoxy you would know about all the Macedonian churches the Greeks took over and tried writing in Greek text over the Cyliric text that was on the walls currently located in the north. This is very easy to show who the churches and land belonged to. If you know anything about Orthodox churches you can look at the icons and tell the difference between say Russian, Greek, Macedonian or Serbien icons. Very easy, the Greek churches in the north all have Macedonian icons. I don't know why all you "Greeks" are so scared, they are not looking for a greater Macedonia, all they want is the land that rightfully belonghed to them that the Greeks stole from them. Wake up and admitt your faults we know you were lied to with all the communist propoganda, now its the old pagen mythological propoganda that fills your sick and twisted homo erotic minds you free wheeling modern day gay hippies!
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Get to know your history better than tell me that I spread lies. Read about the dynamite attacks in Thessaloniki 1903 and than we can talk Rumi. And don't worry about Ilirida. I would be concerned about Cameria if I were you. You and your Macedonian family. LOL. When did your family came to Macedonia, 1913-1918 or 1948, so I could know if you are from Asia minor or Pontia region. And yes Kastrioti was a Greek, and so was God, since I read on your forum that the Hebrew language was Greek, so it kinda makes god Greek too, doesn't it. Come on, Rumi, we all know that the name Hellene was reinvented in the XIX century, so spare me.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Victor these pagens know nothing of God, they worship myths and practice mythology. They gather yearly on Mt. Olympus and practice their queer rituals. All of Greece is fed up with these queers, they try to convert little misled kids that have no life, it's sort of comparing it to the dorks in the west that play dungeons and dragons. They go after little pimple face kids that they can use in their GAY pagen rituals. I have relatives that are sick and tired of these queers stealing their goats for pagen homo rituals. REAL Greeks are nothing like the losers on these Greek forums! These queers are the problem with Greece today, they turn their back and what their ancestors fought for, which was ORTHODOXY! NOT your gay pagen ways arx and your little gay band of merry queers. Their ancestors who have fought against islam are disgraced by these modern day queer battalion of goat f*ckers that call themselve Greek!
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I would be glad if they were pagans. It is just that some of them are so blindly nationalistic that they don't see far from their nose. That is the problem. By the way I have nothing against practicing pagan rituals. In our Orthodoxy there are lots of paganisms. Why do you think we paint eggs for Easter or light a fire two nights before Christmas. Why do we celebrate St. Elijah- it was the Christian substitution for Perun. Anyway I believe if the Greeks today start practicing ancient rituals, it is clear that they are reinventing them and it is not a popular custom and a ritual, but a pseudo-Antic then.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Current Topic - Georgios Kastriotis a true Greek hero......
