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Pelitos74
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:24 PM 

millhousej, i agree with you completely. Though I strongly favor immigration reform with Mexico and other nations, I am not calling for the complete free flow of labor between the US and Mexico. That is not feasible at this point in time. What I am merely pointing out is that Turkey's admission to the EU would result in the free flow of labor of Turks into the rest of the EU.

 
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westside_hindus
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Its childish to demand

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December 16 2002, 7:25 PM 


Turkey has no right to demand anything. They are not in the position to have everything handed to them on a platter.


Actually I wouldn't mind an open border policy with Israel. At least they care about democracy.

 
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getit07
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Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 7:27 PM 

>>"Poland has made a great historic step forward. We shake off the burden of Yalta," he (Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller) said, referring to the 1945 division of Europe into Soviet and Western spheres of influence after World War II. "Our tough negotiations until the end has worked."<<

Does that mean that Poland is ready to return the occupied territories of East Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania, and all other land-grabs to their rightful owners forcibly removed fifty-five years ago? Have the Poles apologized yet and provided funds to reimburse the evicted families for the value and loss of income, plus pain and suffering, originating from the despicable Polish post-war actions?

Mr. L. L.

 
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gdloco
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 9:23 PM 


Apparently you dont know much about the history of Greece and Turkey? Greece is already in the EU, even if they considered forming some sort of bloc with Turkey it would be economical suicide...I could probably barter the sale of Turkey with a bag of peanuts.

---

Good for him, Armenians, Greeks and Cypriots know what kind of **** the turks did to them in the past. Turkey will pay for its misdeeds one day...severely. Why do you think so many people hate the US for backing Turkey?

Apparently you dont care much for Human Rights.

---

Do you know how many billions turkey owes? With their debt and economy in shambles does the EU really want to pick up their tab? Can turkey even afford to back their end up if they join the EU? I think not.

 
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simfi69
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Re: Turkey's entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 9:38 PM 


The big winner in European enlargement, especially one this large is the US. So many of the countries coming in have their primary loyalty to the US, including Poland, rather than Europe that this new EU will always have someone to undermine unity at US bidding. Someone other than the UK who do a fine job now.

 
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rider_in_hte_bloo
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Re: Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 9:41 PM 


Borders of Poland and Germany were finalized in a treaty over 30 years ago and there's no disagreement over it. Only ex-nazi ghosts who like to dig up the past still dwell on that. Not to mention that the division of Poland and Germany was the responsibility of Russia, Britain and the USA.

 
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RFman007
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Re: Turkish polticians harmed their cause

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December 16 2002, 9:46 PM 


I tend to agree.

I never understood why this was made into a crusade. It was made to look like Turks have no option but EU and without it the country would go down the drain.

Nothing can be further from the truth.

Politicians have been trying to cover their inadequecies I think. They are looking to a EU membership for the benefits and reforms they could not deliver - fast enough!

They have not been honest in describing what they will give up in return for membership

Only Turks can realize and enact economic and political reforms. They all know what these are. Sure an EU membership could speed things up, but it is not a must, or only way.

EU is not Europe. It is an organization. Turkey is already part of European history, culture and politics. It is more than just Europe though. They will learn to appreciate it more in time I think as they get their confidence back.

 
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horny_tor_stud
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Re: Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 9:48 PM 

Does it mean Germany is ready to return all Slavonic lands it grabbed including Drezno (Dresden), Lipsk (Leipzig), Branebur (Brandenburg) and others ???

How about paying back billions of dollars to Poland for 3 partitions and occupations dating back to 1792, forced germanization and later nazification in 1939 ?

How about paying back to the Czechs for slaughter of Czech citizens in Sudety mountains, and forced germanization ?

Germany got off very easily after WWII. If we start billing each other now Germany will go bankrupt.

 
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RFman007
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 9:53 PM 

If you mean Turkish election system, not really.

They did have a strict pro-rep until two elections ago, then they put a 5% threshold, mostly to deny the Kurdish HADEP any seats.

Interesting to note that, in spite of a supposedly huge Kurdish problem where millions of Turkish Kurds are supposedly oppressed and denied their identity, this openly Kurdish party did not manage to get above 5% in the general election.

Then, in all their wisdom, the last government pushed through another increase of this threshold to 10% to make the parliament more stable and bring an end to a long history of unstable coalition governments.

As a result, none of the ruling coalition partners have any seats in the house today. Cute, eh? Thus, with only 35% of the vote, AKP has about 65% of the seats.

 
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sierragolph
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 9:56 PM 

That was always 10% and was set in the beginning of 80s -long before foundations of DEP and HADEP.

I was in Turkey in 90s. Those were the times Turkey was severely suffering from PKK's terrorism. Everybody's reaction -including Kurds was to PKK. First DEP and then HADEP seemed like legal forms of PKK which was one of the most cruel terrorist organizations ever seen in the history. Kurds were suffering from PKK's savage much more than Turks. Needless to say, DEP and HADEP were not representatives of Kurdish population of Turkey.

 
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bravenewworld76
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 9:58 PM 


that was because the main target of the pkk was kurds who did not follow their cause. kurds of turkey in general want to continue living out their lives as an integral part of the society, they know that a kurdistan in S.E anatolia will not be a place that many people would want to live in and that turkish citizenship will always be much more valuable then kurdish citizenship.

 
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sierragolph
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 10:01 PM 


Yeah, you have the point. Many people considered that PKK was fighting for Kurds' rights. In fact, this was a big lie of PKK to convince and influence them. PKK was the one who did damn real harm to the Kurds themselves.

 
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k65679
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Re: Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 10:30 PM 

On the subject of an apology may I suggest that you go to the JEWS and their JUDEO-COMMUNIST COOPERATIVES. For your information the Poles were very much against the SHIFTING of INTERNATIONAL BORDERS.

The POLES did not want to be displaced nor did they wish to displace the GERMANS as you claim. It was decided, forced and thrust on them by the JUDEO-COMMUNIST SOVIET STATE and the JEW OPERATIVES in the ROOSEVELT ADMINISTRATION of the USA.

Are you not aware of the fact that in 1945 the entire Head of Government CABINET was abducted by the SOVIETS to Moscow and the entire Government was replaced with JEWS by STALIN.

The JEWS in turn appointed themselves to all MILITARY POSITIONS in POLAND likewise appointing themselves as JUDGES, Head of POLICE, AMBASSADORS, Trade REPRESENTATIVES, JOURNALISTS, and etc. The POLES were the un-willing victims as the Germans were.

Are you not aware of the fact that after the war the JEWS ran COMMUNIST CONCENTRATION CAMPS in POLAND where CHRISTIAN POLES and GERMANS were interned, BRUTALIZED and MURDERED at the HANDS of such man as SOLOMAN MOREL the camp COMMANDANT.

He is now living in luxury retirement in the EVIL TEFLON KHAZAR ZIONIST APARTHEID BARBARIAN TERRORIST PARASITE STATE of ISRAEL? He will never see the day of FACING his victims in the court of law for he is a JEW and a JEW can never be tried for anything done by him in the past by "GOYIM SHE KOP" or translated from YIDDISH to plain ENGLISH the "CATTLE ARE STUPID" or "STUPID SUB-HUMAN BEASTS" as the EVIL TEFLON JEWS refer to all NON-JEWS whenever they are gathered amongst themselves.

 
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liliacsinmay
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 10:32 PM 


Turkey is a Third World country just like Mexico, we simply cannot afford for Turkey to be part of the EU. There would be masses crossing the borders especially to get to the UK for all free benefits.

George Bush tried to promise Turkey (THE WORLD), well, in this case entry into the EU, nevermind that he has bullied all other countries with regarding his obession with a war on Iraq.

HE LOST.

The EU in so many words told him to mind his own business. Once again, this is not about religion, its about economics. Since the EU was formed, the UK, Germany, France etc, have been swamped with illegals.

Too many laws have to be put into place before admitting anymore countries in this big mess.

 
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yu_hawan
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 10:44 PM 

Whatever name you want to label them makes no difference.

Kurds are no more pro-terrorism then Russia, China or other favored members of the UN.

China's Dictatorship is an absolute terror to Tibetans and Uighurs and millions of Chinese.

Kurds are entitled to their own country composed of the Kurdish sections of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. To say otherwise is to say that the Turks, Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians don't deserve a country of their own. What's the difference?

The countries of the Middle East conspire against the Kurds because the Kurds, given the country they are entitled to, would control water in the Middle East and other strategic resources.

---

Snoble, why are you such an idiot? You try to shut me down by bringing out the racist word.

That's pathetic.

Greeks, Turks, Armenians - are all Caucasians and "white."

They are not different races. Only different ethnic and linguistic groups.

You just can't accept Turkey's history based on genocide of all Christians living in pre-Muslim Turkey from the Byzantines to the Greeks to the Armenians and even to fellow Muslim Kurds.

---

I don't think your analogy is the same exactly but correct me if you think I'm wrong.

The US and Mexico have already started the economic integration of Mexico and the United States - to the great benefit of the wealthy of both those countries and to the severe detriment of the vast Mexican class of poor people and to poor and working people in the US.

Bush is already doing it. Unemployed Mexico, a huge percentage of that country, has already arrived in the US by the tens of millions and millions more are still coming. The downward force on wages and standards of living in the US is well underway as middle class American begins to shrink.

---

Imagination to Turks in self-denial.

Reality to millions of Greeks,Armenians and Kurds.

Am I still a Greek pretending to be American and Celtic on other message boards?

Your hatred blinds you.

 
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RFman007
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Re: This Debate

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December 16 2002, 10:47 PM 

I find it hard to believe that one can use this logic with a straight face, even here:

<<Kurds are entitled to their own country composed of the Kurdish sections of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. >>

You suggest that these countires simply as a good will gesture divide their countries and give it to Kurds? Tell me oh so wise person, what happens to the non-Kurdish populations in their region? How do we decide who a Kurd is, so that we only keep them in this new land? Measure their skulls?... Does Israel ring a bell?

<<To say otherwise is to say that the Turks, Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians don't deserve a country of their own. What's the difference?>>

Huge. These ARE countries and Kurdistan never was! In their very long existence, Kurds have never ever had a state, they never left any mark in human civilization. There are porbably some very good reasosn for this, I just don't know what they are!

----------------

Re: US Should ..

You are right and wrong.

Unlike NAFTA, EU has strict economic criteria. Under those conditions, there would be minimum incentive for large movements of labor and people - in theory.

Another note. Most such immigration to USA comes from Central America and Islands, not from Mexico if I am not mistaken.

It is also understood by all that no matter when and if Turkey becomes a member it will never receive the kinds of economic aid or subsidies Portugal and Greece received and soon the new members will also receive.

One wonders then why they are so anxious for this membership.

In any case, Turkish membership issues go beyond immigration and money.

 
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