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EU Celebrates, Considers How to Make Orderly Home

December 16 2002 at 6:35 PM
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B.W.  (no login)

 
EU Celebrates, Considers How to Make Orderly Home
Sat Dec 14, 9:28 AM ET


By Brian Williams

COPENHAGEN (Reuters) - The European Union was on the road to becoming wider and bigger on Saturday after embracing 10 mostly ex-communist nations but now has to make an orderly home for 450 million people speaking a multitude of languages.

With all-night champagne parties celebrating the EUs biggest ever expansion over, reality was still setting in about what comes next and what could still go wrong.


German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder (C) shakes hands with Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul (L) next to French President Jacques Chirac (R) during the EU enlargement summit in Copenhagen, December 13, 2002. The European Union was on the road to becoming wider and bigger Dec. 14 after embracing 10 mostly ex-communist nations but now has to make an orderly home for 450 million people speaking a multitude of languages. (Philippe Wojazer/Reuters)


The decision to add 10 new members to the present 15 came at the end of an intense two-day Copenhagen summit and means the EU's population will grow by 20 percent to 450 million people, creating an economic colossus to rival the United States.

On the horizon are another 65 million if Turkey fulfils its pledge to be ready to start formal entry talks by 2004.

"Good Morning Europe," was the headline of Poland's leading business daily Rzeczpospolita while Slovenia's Novy Cas proclaimed "Weve got it. They invited us to the EU."

"Europe is spreading its wings in freedom, in prosperity and in peace. This is a truly proud moment for the European Union," Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the summit host, said in an emotional final speech.

Poland, Hungary, the Czech and Slovak republics, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus and Malta won the right to join the EU in May 2004, creating a bloc of 25 nations extending from the Atlantic to the eastern Mediterranean.

The candidates, whose 75 million citizens are, on average, less than half as well off as their EU counterparts, won promises of extra cash, higher farm subsidies and output quotas in bargaining which ran late into Friday evening.

EU leaders made minor concessions, but managed to keep the overall cost of paying for the expansion to some 40.8 billion euros -- less than was originally budgeted back in 1999.

But the challenges before formal entry are many.

TOWER OF BABEL

They range from a risk of the EU turning into a so-called "Tower of Babel" from the many languages in which negotiations must now be conducted to gridlock on decisions because of the need for consensus and unanimity.

The first steps are referendums in the 10 countries accepted at the summit on arrangements -- mainly financial -- for entry.

Hungary is the first with a referendum in April followed by votes in other countries over the next year.

Reflecting deep-seated concerns of becoming second-class EU citizens, opponents were already setting out their stalls.

"Also Officially in Europe" wrote Slovenian daily Delo. It derided EU farm policy as "catastrophic."

Polands Lech Walesa, former leader of the Solidarity trade union, could not resist a swipe at the deal Poland negotiated.

"We paid a heavy price for this day. Those who once pulled us to the East now pull us to the West," he said.

Czech Republic political commentator Viliam Buchert said economic benefits were not the important issues.

"Why haggle with Brussels for a few euros when there is no discussion on whether the united Europe will not take away a part of our sovereignty?" he asked in a newspaper article.

LUCRATIVE MARKETS

But money, and the prospect at last of access to the EUs lucrative markets was on the mind of many business people.

"I hope the huge pile of papers I need to import and sell western things here will now disappear. Unless Brussels prepares new ones..." said Marek Budic, 42, a food importer in Prague.

The looming new blocs population of 450 million becomes the worlds largest market surpassing the 420 million in the North American Free Trade Agreement.

However its economic power of $9.5 trillion is second to NAFTAs nearly $12 trillion.

The United States welcomed the landmark accord.

"...the European Union's decision further unites the new and the established democracies of Europe, and advances the creation of a Europe whole, free, and at peace," said a statement issued by White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites).

Turkey, whose hopes of an early EU invitation were dashed after a lobbying effort backed by the United States, preferred to look at a glass half full rather than half empty.

The summit said it would review Muslim Turkey's progress in human rights in late 2004 with an eye to opening talks in mid-2005. Turkish leaders had wanted a firm talks date in 2003.

"Yesterday's decision was a step forward for Turkey, and we assess it as a closer approach to the EU," Deputy Prime Minister Abdullatif Sener said.

"The glass is not half empty. We need to look at the full half," Sener told a conference at the alpine resort of Abant.

Turkeys mass-circulation Milliyet said the summit was one of "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly."

"We finally got a date, but not the date we wanted," the newspaper said.

 
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pranachandra
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Turkey's entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 6:38 PM 


I'm happy to see that the European Union is sticking to its guns in refusing to bow to American and Turkish pressures on this issue. True to their shameless form, the Bush Administration has tried everything in its power to badger the EU into compromising its principles when it comes to criteria for membership into the union.

I now hope that the issue of extreme discrimination against the Kurdish people will feature into the human rights criteria of the EU when they consider Turkey's qualifications for possible membership. And to think that the Bush Administration has promised Turkey that they would ensure that the Kurdish people do not present a problem for their government.

Maybe they have a contigency plan to wipe out the Kurds as a solution to this "problem" so that they could stage their attack on Iraq from northern Turkey. Congratulations to the EU for not kowtowing to the Bush Administration.

 
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RFman007
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Re: Turkey's non-entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 6:39 PM 

USA simply had to look like doing their utmost to help Turkish "cause".

I think all players, including Turkish politicians, know that Bush has no leverage on this matter.

Turkish politicians backed themselves into a corner by making this membership bid into a crusade. As if this were a referandum on Turkish identity and what EU said mattered immensely. They had to play to their audiance and had to LOOK like they are doing EVERYTHING within their power to further the "cause"!

What better way to (look like) further any cause then getting the only superpower behind it!

In the end, not even a fig leaf was offered. Which is for the best.

EU has effectively postponed Turkish memebership to an indefinite future where none of the current generation of Turks or Europeans need to worry about it.

That far into the future, since we will ALL be Americans, it really does not matter. LOL!

 
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klinkxx
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Re: Turkey's non-entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 6:40 PM 

Silly fool

there is no such thing as an amerikkkan (except Native Americans) - no class, no culture not even decent cars - just a melting pot of people from around the world - not necessarily bad as it is happening around the world - but you will run out of $$$ well before you have any opportunity to have the world.

Didn't Hitler try that? Is that where Goerge W gets his lines?

 
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Unity87
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Re: Turkey's non-entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 6:42 PM 

One wonders.

If Bush's promises to Turkey to intercede on its behalf with the EU were intended to be little more than lip service, then it was a foolish promise to make. It has resulted in far more condemnation from the EU than would have been expected from Turkey without it and shows Bush's stunning lack of experience in foreign policy matters.

If the promise was genuine, then not only does it demonstrate his ignorance, but also his willingness to promise anyone anything, whether he can deliver or not, in order to get his way. Not only should this be a lesson to Turkey and the entire EU membership, but to the American people as well.

 
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jkandem
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Re: Turkey's non-entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 6:43 PM 

RF's post was right on target. EU gave up to the US as soon as US entered Bosnia to prevent the racist killings of the Serbs.

I've worked in France, England,and Ireland. I've also worked in the US, frankly French have no chance of even dominating your ex-colonies. This does not happen by working from 9 to 5 and taking 2 hour lunches accompanied by 2 glasses of wine. It also does not happen when companies are afraid to hire some one because it will take them 2 years to get rid of the person if things do not work out.

USA is taking over, whether you like it or not. They do not have to own your country to own you. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 
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yu_hawan
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US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 6:56 PM 

I am American and it disturbs me that my government is meddling in EU affairs like this.

The US wants Turkey to become part of the EU because Turkey cooperates with the US military.

The EU has plenty of good reasons to be concerned about Turkey's membership in the EU and it should be allowed to discuss and debate those issues.

Turkey wants EU membership...but only on its terms.

It should show some good faith by withdrawing its military from the occupation of Northern Cyprus - immediately.

That might help some.

 
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sagehen03us
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 6:58 PM 

The US wants Turkey's admission to the EU because it wants the country to be economically integrated. Economic integration would take care of existing ethnic tensions between the Turks and Kurds. Economic integration would furthermore keep Islamic Fundamentalism out.

But I think Turkey should just form an eastern regional bloc and include Russia, possibly Greece, the Central Asian states, and Iran when the fundamentalists fall from power. After all the combined populations of those states would be greater than the EU, and most of them have oil.

 
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gator
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Re: Turkey's non-entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 7:00 PM 

Many actions by this admistration puts on the same path as Hilters ascension to domination.

Secret intelligence system capable of spying on any American without cause. Not answerable to anyone other than Rummy Rumsfeld.

Hiring convicted felons, 3 I believe, into power management positions, This motley group is headed by Poindexrter convicted after the Iran Contra shinanigans.

Destroy all logical environment laws.

Under the mantra of "War on Terrorism" use secrecy to undermine at will the constitution, and the bill of rights

It is hard to "get a life, get real... or both" when a president who certainly does not have the brightest light in the harbor, imposes what surely appears to be facist doctrines.

 
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yu_hawan
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:08 PM 


Probably truth to what you say.

The Kurds, however, are as populous as the other peoples of the Middle East. They number total (in Turkey, northern Iraq, Western Iran, Northern Syria) at around 30 million thus they are more numerious than Syrians, Lebanese, Israelis, Iraqis, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Saudis,etc. In fact the only nationalities in their vicinity which are more numerious than them are Turks (~50million) and Persians/Iranians (~40million).

To deprive them of their own country while all of the neighbors are allowed to have theirs is - well, it's morally wrong.

 
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snoble_2000
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:09 PM 

yu-hawn is a racist. He is writing nothing but anti Turkish propaganda. He claims to be Celtic but from all his hatred hearted posts he can only be Greek or Armenian. All he mentioned on other topics were about Armenian and Greek suffering. He is nothing to argue with because he wears it on his sleeve.

 
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pong_god
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Re: Welcome new slave states?

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December 16 2002, 7:11 PM 

Dream on. The EU and the US FedGov are central authorities that spend countless manhours writing new laws that restrict what we can do with our lives. If I truly have control over my life, why does the IRS have over 10,000 pages of code to determine how much I can keep of what I earn for myself?

 
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snoble_2000
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Re: Turkey's entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 7:12 PM 

What discrimination when there are Kurds in the Turkey's goverment. During the Gulf war the big boast was that the president of Turkey was a Kurd. Remember their women P.M. Oh please stop the jealousy. Europe will bow to America while it crumbles from the weight of it's dead beat members.

 
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unbenttwig
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World unites and US recedes

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December 16 2002, 7:14 PM 

While the world unites the USA recedes into its self-made corner with new enemies popping out every day and backpack nuclear weapons proliferating.

When Gorbachev took down the cold war in 1989 he made this statement to the USA: "We are going to do the worst thing imaginable to you - we are going to deprive you of an enemy."

There is much wisdom in that statement but the reality of the "modern" USA is that with a friend like Israel we don't have to go looking for enemies.

 
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Pelitos74
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:15 PM 

I am also American and I find it highly hypocritical that President Bush is lobbying on behalf of Turkey for entry into the EU, when he cannot even agree to sit down and discuss immigration reform with Mexico's President Fox.

Turkey's entry to the EU would allow the free movement of labor as well as provide Turkey with financial assistance from the EU. As a developing nation of 70 million people, the EU is correct in its hesitation to admit Turkey into the union. If Bush can lobby on Turkey's behalf, then he should be able to do the same for a neighboring developing country of 100 million people.

 
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surferde234
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Turkish polticians harmed their cause

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December 16 2002, 7:16 PM 

With their agressive ways of DEMANDING and THREATENING the Turkish politicians have just harmed their own cause. They are really not skilled "diplomats" and did a terrible job in the negotiations.

When people in EU countries saw how agressive and demanding the Turkish politicians acted at the summit many started to wonder what a union with Turkey would be like. They got scared of accepting Turkey as an EU member. A lot of sympathy and confidence in Turkey has been lost. So not even the pressure from W. could help.

 
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snoble_2000
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:18 PM 

yu_hawan is just an Anti-Turk because all he has written about on the message board is how mean the Turks were to the Armenians, Greeks and Kurds. His or her view on history is a making of a hateful imagination.

---

I am glad that you are a proud american, Not! The Turks would have built up Europe as they did for Germany and that is why Germany is a power in Europe and the largest bank accounts are those of the Turks. So go.

 
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surferde234
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:19 PM 

Pelitos, I agree to you... many people in Europe notice the hypocracy of Bush concerning this issue. Maybe the EU leaders should lobby for open borders and billions in US financial aid to Mexico to increase the stability in Central America.

Friends of mine from Turkey have also realized Bush's true intentions which are the use of Turkish millitairy basis in an attack on Iraq and the construction of an oil pipeline from the Caspain Sea to a Turkish port.

 
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Pelitos74
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:21 PM 


If you read my post carefully, you will find that I am not actually opposed to Turkey's entry into the EU. What I am pointing out is that Turkey's admission to the EU is very much similar (economically) to an immigration pact between the US and Mexico. The facts are that the US and the EU are rich and Turkey and Mexico are developing nations that provide immigrants (both legal and illegal) to them respectively.

---

Surferde, it is obvious that Bush's true motivation for getting Turkey into the EU is to gain greater military cooperation with Turkey as well as in the construction and protection of oil pipelines.

Now would be the perfect opportunity for EU leaders to point at Mexico and ask Bush why he can't practice what he preaches.

----

I should also add that if we are to compare Turkey's admission to the EU to an immigration reform pact between the US and Mexico, we could further Mexico's by pointing out that Mexico is a Christian country. As a Christian, why would Bush lobby on behalf of a Muslim country yet not sit down and negotiate with a Christian neighbor?

 
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millhousej
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:22 PM 

Obviously, Bush didn't lobby very hard because Turkey wasn't admitted. Also, we have economic aggrements with Mexico. The NA in NAFTA stands for North American and includes Mexico as well as Canada.

I suspect the "immigration reform" that your speaking of amounts to a relaxation of immigration laws. It will not benefit the US or Mexico to have a large migration of people across an open boarder.

We are able to have that type of border with Canada because the economic conditions in the two countries are similar, so having an open boarder doesn't result in a Canadian mass-exidus. The same can't be said about Mexico.

 
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Pelitos74
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 7:24 PM 

millhousej, i agree with you completely. Though I strongly favor immigration reform with Mexico and other nations, I am not calling for the complete free flow of labor between the US and Mexico. That is not feasible at this point in time. What I am merely pointing out is that Turkey's admission to the EU would result in the free flow of labor of Turks into the rest of the EU.

 
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westside_hindus
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Its childish to demand

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December 16 2002, 7:25 PM 


Turkey has no right to demand anything. They are not in the position to have everything handed to them on a platter.


Actually I wouldn't mind an open border policy with Israel. At least they care about democracy.

 
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getit07
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Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 7:27 PM 

>>"Poland has made a great historic step forward. We shake off the burden of Yalta," he (Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller) said, referring to the 1945 division of Europe into Soviet and Western spheres of influence after World War II. "Our tough negotiations until the end has worked."<<

Does that mean that Poland is ready to return the occupied territories of East Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania, and all other land-grabs to their rightful owners forcibly removed fifty-five years ago? Have the Poles apologized yet and provided funds to reimburse the evicted families for the value and loss of income, plus pain and suffering, originating from the despicable Polish post-war actions?

Mr. L. L.

 
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gdloco
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 9:23 PM 


Apparently you dont know much about the history of Greece and Turkey? Greece is already in the EU, even if they considered forming some sort of bloc with Turkey it would be economical suicide...I could probably barter the sale of Turkey with a bag of peanuts.

---

Good for him, Armenians, Greeks and Cypriots know what kind of **** the turks did to them in the past. Turkey will pay for its misdeeds one day...severely. Why do you think so many people hate the US for backing Turkey?

Apparently you dont care much for Human Rights.

---

Do you know how many billions turkey owes? With their debt and economy in shambles does the EU really want to pick up their tab? Can turkey even afford to back their end up if they join the EU? I think not.

 
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simfi69
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Re: Turkey's entry in the EU

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December 16 2002, 9:38 PM 


The big winner in European enlargement, especially one this large is the US. So many of the countries coming in have their primary loyalty to the US, including Poland, rather than Europe that this new EU will always have someone to undermine unity at US bidding. Someone other than the UK who do a fine job now.

 
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rider_in_hte_bloo
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Re: Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 9:41 PM 


Borders of Poland and Germany were finalized in a treaty over 30 years ago and there's no disagreement over it. Only ex-nazi ghosts who like to dig up the past still dwell on that. Not to mention that the division of Poland and Germany was the responsibility of Russia, Britain and the USA.

 
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RFman007
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Re: Turkish polticians harmed their cause

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December 16 2002, 9:46 PM 


I tend to agree.

I never understood why this was made into a crusade. It was made to look like Turks have no option but EU and without it the country would go down the drain.

Nothing can be further from the truth.

Politicians have been trying to cover their inadequecies I think. They are looking to a EU membership for the benefits and reforms they could not deliver - fast enough!

They have not been honest in describing what they will give up in return for membership

Only Turks can realize and enact economic and political reforms. They all know what these are. Sure an EU membership could speed things up, but it is not a must, or only way.

EU is not Europe. It is an organization. Turkey is already part of European history, culture and politics. It is more than just Europe though. They will learn to appreciate it more in time I think as they get their confidence back.

 
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horny_tor_stud
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Re: Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 9:48 PM 

Does it mean Germany is ready to return all Slavonic lands it grabbed including Drezno (Dresden), Lipsk (Leipzig), Branebur (Brandenburg) and others ???

How about paying back billions of dollars to Poland for 3 partitions and occupations dating back to 1792, forced germanization and later nazification in 1939 ?

How about paying back to the Czechs for slaughter of Czech citizens in Sudety mountains, and forced germanization ?

Germany got off very easily after WWII. If we start billing each other now Germany will go bankrupt.

 
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RFman007
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 9:53 PM 

If you mean Turkish election system, not really.

They did have a strict pro-rep until two elections ago, then they put a 5% threshold, mostly to deny the Kurdish HADEP any seats.

Interesting to note that, in spite of a supposedly huge Kurdish problem where millions of Turkish Kurds are supposedly oppressed and denied their identity, this openly Kurdish party did not manage to get above 5% in the general election.

Then, in all their wisdom, the last government pushed through another increase of this threshold to 10% to make the parliament more stable and bring an end to a long history of unstable coalition governments.

As a result, none of the ruling coalition partners have any seats in the house today. Cute, eh? Thus, with only 35% of the vote, AKP has about 65% of the seats.

 
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sierragolph
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 9:56 PM 

That was always 10% and was set in the beginning of 80s -long before foundations of DEP and HADEP.

I was in Turkey in 90s. Those were the times Turkey was severely suffering from PKK's terrorism. Everybody's reaction -including Kurds was to PKK. First DEP and then HADEP seemed like legal forms of PKK which was one of the most cruel terrorist organizations ever seen in the history. Kurds were suffering from PKK's savage much more than Turks. Needless to say, DEP and HADEP were not representatives of Kurdish population of Turkey.

 
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bravenewworld76
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 9:58 PM 


that was because the main target of the pkk was kurds who did not follow their cause. kurds of turkey in general want to continue living out their lives as an integral part of the society, they know that a kurdistan in S.E anatolia will not be a place that many people would want to live in and that turkish citizenship will always be much more valuable then kurdish citizenship.

 
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sierragolph
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Re: Turkish polticians pull their ropes

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December 16 2002, 10:01 PM 


Yeah, you have the point. Many people considered that PKK was fighting for Kurds' rights. In fact, this was a big lie of PKK to convince and influence them. PKK was the one who did damn real harm to the Kurds themselves.

 
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k65679
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Re: Poland shedding Yalta?

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December 16 2002, 10:30 PM 

On the subject of an apology may I suggest that you go to the JEWS and their JUDEO-COMMUNIST COOPERATIVES. For your information the Poles were very much against the SHIFTING of INTERNATIONAL BORDERS.

The POLES did not want to be displaced nor did they wish to displace the GERMANS as you claim. It was decided, forced and thrust on them by the JUDEO-COMMUNIST SOVIET STATE and the JEW OPERATIVES in the ROOSEVELT ADMINISTRATION of the USA.

Are you not aware of the fact that in 1945 the entire Head of Government CABINET was abducted by the SOVIETS to Moscow and the entire Government was replaced with JEWS by STALIN.

The JEWS in turn appointed themselves to all MILITARY POSITIONS in POLAND likewise appointing themselves as JUDGES, Head of POLICE, AMBASSADORS, Trade REPRESENTATIVES, JOURNALISTS, and etc. The POLES were the un-willing victims as the Germans were.

Are you not aware of the fact that after the war the JEWS ran COMMUNIST CONCENTRATION CAMPS in POLAND where CHRISTIAN POLES and GERMANS were interned, BRUTALIZED and MURDERED at the HANDS of such man as SOLOMAN MOREL the camp COMMANDANT.

He is now living in luxury retirement in the EVIL TEFLON KHAZAR ZIONIST APARTHEID BARBARIAN TERRORIST PARASITE STATE of ISRAEL? He will never see the day of FACING his victims in the court of law for he is a JEW and a JEW can never be tried for anything done by him in the past by "GOYIM SHE KOP" or translated from YIDDISH to plain ENGLISH the "CATTLE ARE STUPID" or "STUPID SUB-HUMAN BEASTS" as the EVIL TEFLON JEWS refer to all NON-JEWS whenever they are gathered amongst themselves.

 
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liliacsinmay
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 10:32 PM 


Turkey is a Third World country just like Mexico, we simply cannot afford for Turkey to be part of the EU. There would be masses crossing the borders especially to get to the UK for all free benefits.

George Bush tried to promise Turkey (THE WORLD), well, in this case entry into the EU, nevermind that he has bullied all other countries with regarding his obession with a war on Iraq.

HE LOST.

The EU in so many words told him to mind his own business. Once again, this is not about religion, its about economics. Since the EU was formed, the UK, Germany, France etc, have been swamped with illegals.

Too many laws have to be put into place before admitting anymore countries in this big mess.

 
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yu_hawan
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Re: US Should Stay Out Of This Debate

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December 16 2002, 10:44 PM 

Whatever name you want to label them makes no difference.

Kurds are no more pro-terrorism then Russia, China or other favored members of the UN.

China's Dictatorship is an absolute terror to Tibetans and Uighurs and millions of Chinese.

Kurds are entitled to their own country composed of the Kurdish sections of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. To say otherwise is to say that the Turks, Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians don't deserve a country of their own. What's the difference?

The countries of the Middle East conspire against the Kurds because the Kurds, given the country they are entitled to, would control water in the Middle East and other strategic resources.

---

Snoble, why are you such an idiot? You try to shut me down by bringing out the racist word.

That's pathetic.

Greeks, Turks, Armenians - are all Caucasians and "white."

They are not different races. Only different ethnic and linguistic groups.

You just can't accept Turkey's history based on genocide of all Christians living in pre-Muslim Turkey from the Byzantines to the Greeks to the Armenians and even to fellow Muslim Kurds.

---

I don't think your analogy is the same exactly but correct me if you think I'm wrong.

The US and Mexico have already started the economic integration of Mexico and the United States - to the great benefit of the wealthy of both those countries and to the severe detriment of the vast Mexican class of poor people and to poor and working people in the US.

Bush is already doing it. Unemployed Mexico, a huge percentage of that country, has already arrived in the US by the tens of millions and millions more are still coming. The downward force on wages and standards of living in the US is well underway as middle class American begins to shrink.

---

Imagination to Turks in self-denial.

Reality to millions of Greeks,Armenians and Kurds.

Am I still a Greek pretending to be American and Celtic on other message boards?

Your hatred blinds you.

 
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RFman007
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Re: This Debate

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December 16 2002, 10:47 PM 

I find it hard to believe that one can use this logic with a straight face, even here:

<<Kurds are entitled to their own country composed of the Kurdish sections of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. >>

You suggest that these countires simply as a good will gesture divide their countries and give it to Kurds? Tell me oh so wise person, what happens to the non-Kurdish populations in their region? How do we decide who a Kurd is, so that we only keep them in this new land? Measure their skulls?... Does Israel ring a bell?

<<To say otherwise is to say that the Turks, Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians don't deserve a country of their own. What's the difference?>>

Huge. These ARE countries and Kurdistan never was! In their very long existence, Kurds have never ever had a state, they never left any mark in human civilization. There are porbably some very good reasosn for this, I just don't know what they are!

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Re: US Should ..

You are right and wrong.

Unlike NAFTA, EU has strict economic criteria. Under those conditions, there would be minimum incentive for large movements of labor and people - in theory.

Another note. Most such immigration to USA comes from Central America and Islands, not from Mexico if I am not mistaken.

It is also understood by all that no matter when and if Turkey becomes a member it will never receive the kinds of economic aid or subsidies Portugal and Greece received and soon the new members will also receive.

One wonders then why they are so anxious for this membership.

In any case, Turkish membership issues go beyond immigration and money.

 
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