Originally was posted by
TURK79
(Login TURK_79)
August 9 2008, 1:14 PM
Hi;
I m a Muslim and God is great for me .
I don't know anything about that book , sory
But I know a turkish atheist web-site .
You can ask them http://forum.ateizm2.org/
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Declaring oneself as an atheist is not anything illegal in Turkey. I don't know if it's allowed officially but you can have your identity card's "part of religion" left blank.
Christopher Hitchens book hasn't been translated into Turkish but it's original English version is sold in Turkey.
What makes hundred millions of people atheist is the traditional God definition in Christinaty, Judaism and Islam. We have been taught as though God is someone like a great oldster who lives on clouds and put in order everything as he wishes. Believing in something you can't see, hear, feel...and so on is quite illogical for sure.
What I believe as God is everything, the universe's itself. This agrees with every point of view. For instance it says "ask from me(God) to give you" in "The Kuran". It also says "ask something you wish from the universe" in "The Secret" book. It says "give a signal to universe for something you wish" in Buddhist customs called Feng Shui. No wonder all those religions had come to Near Eastern nations but not to Far Eastern nations who rather believe in cosmic powers. Even It says "look your around to see me(God)" and "every human has divine power" in Kuran's itself.
There is some undeniable sort of spirit or life force what we're also part of it and this is what I call God. Neither a conservative, nor an atheist could disproof me to date.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Dear TURK and Kanuni,
Thanks for your quick response.
Thank you for the link.
Kanuni it seems to me that you are agnostic who has rather Einsteinian definition of god.
Please, read ""God is not great"". You can find it on YOU TUBE as well.
With full respect to the believers it is them who have to do some proving...
With secular greetings,
Feral Tribune
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
As for me, not really. Agnosticism is based on suspect and a branch of irreligion. My belief is certain and strong. It's rather conservative people who are buried in unawareness. They practice very strictly because they afraid. They afraid because they don't know what they worship. That's why ultra-conservatives are mostly uneducated people. In speaking generally, the fact that they also afraid, atheists run away from this traditional indistinct definition instead of trying to get the truth. They accept other people's standards denying in fact. What they all believe(traditional God definition), including atheists and most believers, is actually the same whether they accept or deny. People believe hell is somewhere full of fires. Has anyone ever been there? Where does it come from? Maybe "hell" means "soul's remaining in this world as a ghost". It was mentioned in Kuran that demons are much more than humans in the world. Maybe we're just in the first step to climb to heaven. Who knows? There are a lot of things to say. Unfortunately most people find difficult to use their brains.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Thanx for your learned response.
However, with full respect... for me ""Kuran"" , ""Holy Bible"", "Torah" and other so called "holy books" are nothing more than a man-made piece of literature based - by the way - on pre-monotheistic myths and beliefs. We all know that religion has been always used for geopolitical purposes. It ensured (for the ruling elites) social cohesion and control over their subjects. To this day converting or rejecting one's religion is considered (in some countries) as an act of high treason punishable by death.
In my opinion indoctrinating children in religious schools and forcing them to memorize those bulky texts/books is an absolute waste of human resources bordering with child abuse.
I am not surprised so many countries with state sponsored religion to this day remain stuck in the middle ages without contributing anything to the 21 century inventions in technology and science.
Decline and respect of US great democracy on the international scene is largely due to the involvement of a powerful evangelist lobby in the American politics.
In many ways G.D.Bush is similar to his counterpart Osman ibn Laden. Every second word in their speeches refers to god/Allah.
To be honest with you I am losing patience with this nonsense.
Rational, secular and humanistic regards,
Feral Tribune
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I completely agree with that religion has been always used for political purposes. It's a discussable issue that necesity of religious rules in a society. There are both very good and bad people in every religious groups. It rather depends on one's character. If someone is bad, religion won't be able to stop one, what's more used for bad political purposes. As I said before, one can either make himself blind with religious propagandas of some charlatans or give them right speaking ill of what they are talking about...or an another option is to take the good stuffs of a religion for yourself. You have at least nothing to lose at this point. But above all, education is essential.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Aug 13, 2008 5:58 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
You seem to be a broadminded person. Something exceptional and rare on these forums.
My other problem with the religious is their asserted (God given - I guess) immunity to ANY CRITICISM.
You can criticize and even ridicule anything nowadays : politicians and their parties, movie stars,celebrities, scientists, teachers, doctors you name it..... but criticizing somebody's MYTHS is a blasphemy punishable by law.
Kanuni please listen to (read) please carefully following clip from Saudi Arabia :
It makes me sick, as well as many people in my country, when some people are speaking as though they're Godlike.
Thousands of people from various nations come together to watch sportives, who are encouraging people to make sports, in olympic games. I see a good job here and competitors don't do anything immoral as long as they are not naked. They have to wear certain clothes for this. What those Saudis do is immorality because they first look at the "private areas" of those women. It is always intention that matters. If they are disturbed so much, they can turn off the TV. Injustice is also a sin in Islam.
What I would like to ask those, who cover faith and dignity with 1,5m piece of fabric, how many poor people did they help, instead of buying gold covered taps, ultra-luxurious private jets and enourmous yachts, by billions of petrodollars come from just belonging to a dynasty???? I know the answer however. I am just wondering their faces. Even I personally know how they behave immigrants in their countries. Everybody is responsible for themselves. If they had a right character, they wouldn't have already attacked to other people.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Aug 16, 2008 7:01 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
You are spot on regarding frozen in time, corrupt regimes in the Petrol-lands which US administration supports politically and militarily while president Bush comfortably rubs his shoulders with their un-democratically elected representatives...
Saddam was no angel but he pales into insignificance compared with the dictatorial Saudi royal oligarchy and their cronies. I cannot believe this medieval relics (socio-political dinosaurs as I call them) still enjoy support of the Western world in 21 century. Nobody dares to utter a word of criticism in the Western world against those repressive backward regimes (not only in the Saudi Arabia). I find this behaviour hypocritical.
It makes me sick to the back teeth.
When will the all powerful West get its priorities right ?
Thanks for your honesty and objectivity.
Secular and humanistic greetings,
Feral Tribune
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"Miss Beatrice, the church organist, was in her eighties and had never been married.
She was admired for her sweetness and kindness to all.
One afternoon the priest came to call on her and she showed him into her quaint sitting room.
She invited him to have a seat while she prepared tea.
As he sat facing her old Hammond organ the young minister noticed a cut-glass bowl sitting on top of it.
The bowl was filled with water, and in the water floated, of all things, a condom!
When she returned with tea and scones, they began to chat.
The priest tried to stifle his curiosity about the bowl of water and its strange floater, but soon it got the better of him and he could no longer resist.
'Miss Beatrice' he said,'I wonder if you would tell me about this?' pointing to the bowl.
'Oh yes' she replied,'Isn't it wonderful?' I was walking in through the park a few months ago and I found this little package on the ground.
The directions said to place it on the organ, keep it wet and that it would prevent the spread of disease. Do you know I haven't had the flu all winter' "
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Ankara - Turkish internet users have been blocked via a court order from accessing the site of prominent British biologist Richard Dawkins after complaints from lawyers for Islamic creationist author Adnan Oktar, the website of Turkish television station NTV reported on Wednesday.
A court in Istanbul ordered that Turk Telekom block access to the site and since the weekend Turkish internet users seeking the site have been redirected to a page that says in Turkish 'access to this site has been suspended in accordance with a court decision'.
NTV reported that Oktar complained he and his creationist book 'Atlas of Creation' had been defamed by comments made by Dawkins on the site.
'I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the breathtaking inanity of the content,' Dawkins, a distinguished advocate of the theory of evolution, wrote on his website in July referring to the Atlas of Creation.
The book has caused controversy not just through its advocation of creationism but also through how thousands of copies of book were distributed to schools in a number of European countries.
Oktar has used the Turkish courts on a number of occasions, the latest being earlier this year when he attempted to have Dawkins' book The God Delusion banned in Turkey on the basis that it was insulting religion but a Turkish court threw the case out.
In August 2007, Oktar, who writes under the pen name Harun Yahya, convinced a Turkish court to block access to millions of web blogs using the Wordpress.com hosting service after finding that a number of blogs carried libellous comments.
In May, Oktar was found guilty of creating an illegal organization for personal gain and sentenced to three years imprisonment. He is appealing the decision.
UPDATE: 9/18/08 - Covered in The Guardian
Turkish court bans Richard Dawkins website
A Turkish court has banned internet users from viewing the official Richard Dawkins website after a Muslim creationist claimed its contents were defamatory and blasphemous.
Adnan Oktar, who writes under the pen name of Harun Yahya, complained that Dawkins, a fierce critic of creationism and intelligent design, had insulted him in comments made on forums and blogs.
According to Oktar's office, Istanbul's second criminal court of peace banned the site earlier this month on the grounds that it "violated" Oktar's personality.
His press assistant, Seda Aral, said: "We are not against freedom of speech or expression but you cannot insult people.
"We found the comments hurtful. It was not a scientific discussion. There was a line and the limit has been passed.
"We have used all the legal means to stop this site. We asked them to remove the comments but they did not."
Oktar, a household name in Turkey, has used hundreds of books, pamphlets and DVDS to contest Darwin's theory of evolution.
In 2006 his publishers sent out 10,000 copies of the Atlas of Creation, a lavish 800-page rejection of evolution.
Dawkins, one of the recipients, described the book as "preposterous". On his website the British biologist and popular science writer said he was at "a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the 'breathtaking inanity' of the content."
It is the third time Oktar and his associates have succeeded in blocking sites in Turkey.
In August 2007 Oktar persuaded a court to block access to WordPress.com. His lawyers argued that blogs on WordPress.com contained libelous material that the company was unwilling to remove.
Last April, he made a libel complaint about Google Groups, which was subsequently blocked.
He failed to ban Dawkins' book the God Delusion in Turkey after a court rejected his claims that it insulted religion.
Very sad indeed...
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Adnan Oktar(Nickname: Harun Yahya) is one of the best charlatans in Turkey.
Among his actions:
- getting fake health report to desert the colors,
- cocaine usage,
- setting up benefit organization,
- prostitution and sex abuse,
- weapon smuggling,
- provocation of anti-semitism,
- prophethood claims,
...and so on.
Laws are sometimes relative in Turkey. Point of views of jurists are too effective on decisions. On the other hand, neither Turkish juridical system, nor Turktelekom own a banning commission. They don't even discuss. They're just banning sites on complaint applications. Even "youtube" was banned by application of a prosecutor. There is a legal gap at this point.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 4, 2008 6:08 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Tx Kanuni for clarification.
It seems to me that the powerful and influential individual in question enjoys a lot of support in high places ....I mean Turkish political and religious (Islamist) establishment.
Is he openly criticized ( allowed to be criticized - to be exact) by/on the local media ?
Is he de facto above the Turkish secular law ?
Humanist and secular greetings,
Feral Tribune
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Turkey’s political establishment is secular but there is a conservative(rather so-called Islamist) party at the moment. Islam is just their cover. It has just been exposed that they had siphoned millions from branch(in Germany) of “Deniz Feneri(lighthouse)” - a big charity foundation. Although immigrants from Turkey live and work under difficult conditions in Germany, they were still trying to make a donation.
He is sometimes criticized openly. Turkey’s ex-minister of interior said that he was as dangerous as Apo(ex-leader of PKK). But most civillians don’t dare to attack on him because of his backers. He had been judged and punished many times. Strange but Adnan Oktar was appreciated by Stephen Roth Institue in Israel inspite of his provacative anti-semitic claims.
Those so-called Islamist crime groups and "belief smugglers" are based and supported in United States mostly.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Do not conclude anything, the age of human being is much more than those few thousands but no definite age young calculate and again it does not make any difference for us to be one billion or one million or few thousands. The Bible proves that it is full of mistakes that you can find easily when you revise the bible. The biblical scholars admit that the bible is full of errors, you can read the Christian magazine called "Awake" when it stated that bible has more than 55
thousands errors. you do not need to search far away while the proof is in your hand.
Islam does not have a set position on the actual age of the Earth, leaving such knowledge to God alone. The Qur'an does describe the creation of the universe
The descriptions of creation in the Qur'an are not intended as dry historical accounts, but rather to engage the reader in contemplating the lessons to be learned from it. The act of creation, therefore, is frequently spoken of as a way of drawing the reader into thinking about the order in all things, and the All-Knowing Creator Who is behind it all. For example:
"Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).
Big Bang in Quran
When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Qur'an does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).
Expansion of Universe
The Qur'an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe's expansion was only recently discovered.
Six Days?
The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.
The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.
After completing the Creation, the Qur'an describes that Allah "settled Himself upon the Throne" (57:4) to oversee His work. A distinct point is made to counter the Biblical idea of a day of rest: "We created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us" (50:38).
Allah is never "done" with His work, because the process of creation is ongoing. Each new child who is born, every seed that sprouts into a sapling, every new species that appears on earth, is part of the ongoing process of Allah's creation. "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then established Himself on the Throne. He knows what enters within the heart of the earth, and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven, and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wherever you may be. And Allah
RSShttp:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ video/ iLyROoaft_xg. html
VIDEO: THE FOSSIL RECORD REFUTES EVOLUTION
http:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ video/ iLyROoaftD0k. html
http:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ search/ ? q= pseudonyme+harun+yahya
http:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ video/ iLyROoaft_P2. html
EVOLUTION FORGERIES
There is no concrete fossil evidence to support the "ape-man" image, which is unceasingly imposed by the media and evolutionist academic circles. With brushes in their hands, evolutionists produce imaginary creatures, nevertheless, the fact that these drawings correspond to no matching fossils constitutes a serious problem for them. One of the interesting methods they employ to overcome this problem is to "produce" the fossils they cannot find. Piltdown Man, which may be the biggest scandal in the history of science, is a typical example of this method.
http:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ video/ iLyROoaft_Ek. html
http:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ video/ iLyROoaft_ND. html
http:/ / tv. jubii. nl/ video/ iLyROoaft_EY. html
VIDEO YAHYA: THE BLOODY ALLIANCE: DARWINISM AND FASCISM
Do not conclude anything, the age of human being is much more than those few thousands but no definite age young calculate and again it does not make any difference for us to be one billion or one million or few thousands. The Bible proves that it is full of mistakes that you can find easily when you revise the bible. The biblical scholars admit that the bible is full of errors, you can read the Christian magazine called "Awake" when it stated that bible has more than 55
thousands errors. you do not need to search far away while the proof is in your hand.
Islam does not have a set position on the actual age of the Earth, leaving such knowledge to God alone. The Qur'an does describe the creation of the universe
The descriptions of creation in the Qur'an are not intended as dry historical accounts, but rather to engage the reader in contemplating the lessons to be learned from it. The act of creation, therefore, is frequently spoken of as a way of drawing the reader into thinking about the order in all things, and the All-Knowing Creator Who is behind it all. For example:
"Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).
Big Bang in Quran
When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Qur'an does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).
Expansion of Universe
The Qur'an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe's expansion was only recently discovered.
Six Days?
The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.
The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.
After completing the Creation, the Qur'an describes that Allah "settled Himself upon the Throne" (57:4) to oversee His work. A distinct point is made to counter the Biblical idea of a day of rest: "We created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us" (50:38).
Allah is never "done" with His work, because the process of creation is ongoing. Each new child who is born, every seed that sprouts into a sapling, every new species that appears on earth, is part of the ongoing process of Allah's creation. "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then established Himself on the Throne. He knows what enters within the heart of the earth, and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven, and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wherever you may be. And Allah
http://tv.jubii.nl/video/iLyROoaft_xg.html
EVOLUTION FORGERIES
There is no concrete fossil evidence to support the "ape-man" image, which is unceasingly imposed by the media and evolutionist academic circles. With brushes in their hands, evolutionists produce imaginary creatures, nevertheless, the fact that these drawings correspond to no matching fossils constitutes a serious problem for them. One of the interesting methods they employ to overcome this problem is to "produce" the fossils they cannot find. Piltdown Man, which may be the biggest scandal in the history of science, is a typical example of this method.
A person (Atheist) is indoctrinated into a particular faith. He follows it diligently with total dedication without doing the independent research. He has a change of heart and doubt creeps in. Starts rejecting whatever was taught. Instead of looking around and examining other beliefs with sounder footings he shuts the door.
Greek Slav that is more or less what Kant have argued. But I must object about the first part, there is no absolute truth in that way. And Finious I'd be more careful before accusing atheists for not doing independent research.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Hello my friend Viktor. Do you realize that the more one argues against absolute truth, the more we prove its existence? And are you absolutely sure that absolute truth does not exist in any form?
You cannot argue against absolute truth unless an absolute truth is the basis of your argument.
God knows the absolute truth.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Some Christians argue that it is impossible for people of Islam to be atheists because they do not believe in the Holy Trinity.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Anonymous (Login KanuniSS) Turkey Forum Mods Group
Re: Atheism in Turkey
No score for this post
November 21 2008, 4:05 PM
What you can account for(rather than believe) is the truth for you. Right or wrong. They will turn back to you. But brain and conscience were given to you to find out the right, namely absolute truth.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 21, 2008 4:09 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Apologizes, Kanuniss. I worded it wrong and this lead to a misunderstanding.
What I meant to say, and I say it in reference to the belief of some Christians, is that the difference between a Christian and an Atheist is that an Atheist either denies the existence of the Trinity or has no belief in the Trinity. Therefore, Atheism in Turkey is wide spread if not total.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Muslim Turks neither deny the God, nor the Jesus. Atheism is the rejection of theism. They deny the consept of the Trinity.
" And behold! the God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside the God?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. " (Maide-116)
Islam was sent in order to religion of Jesus was degenerated as it was mentioned. Therefore, the statement of "Muslims are Atheists" is their own personal opinion.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 22, 2008 6:48 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 22, 2008 5:16 PM
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
But Christians believe that Jews killed Jesus Christ. However there is not a so much difference between the intention and acting.
The fact that they believed that Jesus was the Son of God to be blasphemy is true.
- "The Messiah, Son of Mary, was no other than a messenger; messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat food. (how on earth does any God have to eat for living?) See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!" [Maide-75]
However Jews didn't believe that Jesus was a Messiah. But what I meant was: neither Jews, nor Romans, and nor anyone else could kill that so-called son-God. That's the nonsense they believe. According to Kuran, they already couldn't kill Jesus, but anyone else who looked like him so much.
- "And because of their saying: "We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger." - They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them. Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for a certain. (they couldn't be sure)" [Nisa-157]
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Dear Friends,
As a former Catholic I want to quote a very telling fragment from Richard DAWKINS's famous book "God Delusion".
On the surface it is funny and entertaining but deep down it makes me rather sad that this kind of medieval, infantile superstition (or rather nonsense - to be more accurate) is dressed up as something to be respected or even revered.
"Late John Paul II had a special affinity with the Virgin Mary. His polytheistic hankerings were
dramatically demonstrated in 1981 when he suffered an assassination attempt in Rome, and attributed his survival to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima: 'A maternal hand guided the bullet.' One
cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether. Others might think the team of surgeons who operated on him for six hours deserved at least a share of the credit; but perhaps
their hands, too, were maternally guided. The relevant point is that it wasn't just Our Lady who, in the Pope's opinion, guided the bullet, but specifically Our Lady of Fatima. Presumably Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Garabandal and Our Lady of Knock were busy on other errands at the time."
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Following are some of the approaches I use when dealing with atheists in conversations that deal with alleged lack of evidence for God's existence. Now, no argument is fool-proof, and no single argument answers all the objections. Nevertheless, it is important to have thought out some of the implications of the statements and bring them up during conversations.Of course, conversations rarely follow a logical format. They usually take tangents and detours.
http://www.carm.org/secular-movements/atheism/concerning-atheist-attacks-theism http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_OM/default.htm
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
There is no defensible position on theism.
No matter how you argue, it usually requires the opposition to either:
(I) believe the miracles of your religion on faith, whilst rejecting the miracles of other religions on faith;
(II) believe that the universe looks created and therefore is, by your creator but not by another; and/or
(III) ignore the lack of intervention an all-loving & all-powerful entity would perform in our favour under the banner "we do not know how god works" whilst contradicting that position by holding your holy books and proclaiming "god hates: abortion, gays and lesbians, liberals, Jews, polytheists, witches... etc".
Furthermore the historicity of these faiths are clearly man-made and the extraordinary claim of a god with the qualities x, y and z requires extraordinary evidence. Which its claimants bear the burden of proof.
I concede though that a deistic higher-power is a defensible position due to the lack of anthropomorphic qualities, amongst other factors.
Statistically speaking: given the many numbers of theistic faiths - you should expect damnation as a sheer statistical likelihood! (Sam Harris).
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Mark Twain's "Was the World Made for Man?"
I came across an essay today that I throughly enjoyed. Its from none other than Mark Twain in response to Alfred Russell Wallace's revival of the theory that this earth is at the center of the stellar universe. Wallace, that whom had been a co-author of the theory evolution by natural selection, had become convinced that the world and the universe had been created for man. This is Mark Twain's written response:
Was the World Made for Man?
Mark Twain
1903
Alfred Russell Wallace's revival of the theory that this earth is at the center of the stellar universe, and is the only habitable globe, has aroused great interest in the world." -- Literary Digest
"For ourselves we do thoroughly believe that man, as he lives just here on this tiny earth, is in essence and possibilities the most sublime existence in all the range of non-divine being -- the chief love and delight of God." -- Chicago "Interior" (Presb.)
I seem to be the only scientist and theologian still remaining to be heard from on this important matter of whether the world was made for man or not. I feel that it is time for me to speak.
I stand almost with the others. They believe the world was made for man, I believe it likely that it was made for man; they think there is proof, astronomical mainly, that it was made for man, I think there is evidence only, not proof, that it was made for him. It is too early, yet, to arrange the verdict, the returns are not all in. When they are all in, I think they will show that the world was made for man; but we must not hurry, we must patiently wait till they are all in.
Now as far as we have got, astronomy is on our side. Mr. Wallace has clearly shown this. He has clearly shown two things: that the world was made for man, and that the universe was made for the world -- to steady it, you know. The astronomy part is settled, and cannot be challenged.
We come now to the geological part. This is the one where the evidence is not all in, yet. It is coming in, hourly, daily, coming in all the time, but naturally it comes with geological carefulness and deliberation, and we must not be impatient, we must not get excited, we must be calm, and wait. To lose our tranquility will not hurry geology; nothing hurries geology.
It takes a long time to prepare a world for man, such a thing is not done in a day. Some of the great scientists, carefully deciphering the evidences furnished by geology, have arrived at the conviction that our world is prodigiously old, and they may be right, but Lord Kelvin is not of their opinion. He takes a cautious, conservative view, in order to be on the safe side, and feels sure it is not so old as they think. As Lord Kelvin is the highest authority in science now living, I think we must yield to him and accept his view. He does not concede that the world is more than a hundred million years old. He believes it is that old, but not older. Lyell believed that our race was introduced into the world 31,000 years ago, Herbert Spencer makes it 32,000. Lord Kelvin agrees with Spencer.
Very well. According to Kelvin's figures it took 99,968,000 years to prepare the world for man, impatient as the Creator doubtless was to see him and admire him. But a large enterprise like this has to be conducted warily, painstakingly, logically. It was foreseen that man would have to have the oyster. Therefore the first preparation was made for the oyster. Very well, you cannot make an oyster out of whole cloth, you must make the oyster's ancestor first. This is not done in a day. You must make a vast variety of invertebrates, to start with -- belemnites, trilobites, jebusites, amalekites, and that sort of fry, and put them to soak in a primary sea, and wait and see what will happen. Some will be a disappointments - the belemnites, the ammonites and such; they will be failures, they will die out and become extinct, in the course of the 19,000,000 years covered by the experiment, but all is not lost, for the amalekites will fetch the home-stake; they will develop gradually into encrinites, and stalactites, and blatherskites, and one thing and another as the mighty ages creep on and the Archaean and the Cambrian Periods pile their lofty crags in the primordial seas, and at last the first grand stage in the preparation of the world for man stands completed, the Oyster is done. An oyster has hardly any more reasoning power than a scientist has; and so it is reasonably certain that this one jumped to the conclusion that the nineteen-million years was a preparation for him; but that would be just like an oyster, which is the most conceited animal there is, except man. And anyway, this one could not know, at that early date, that he was only an incident in a scheme, and that there was some more to the scheme, yet.
The oyster being achieved, the next thing to be arranged for in the preparation of the world for man, was fish. Fish, and coal to fry it with. So the Old Silurian seas were opened up to breed the fish in, and at the same time the great work of building Old Red Sandstone mountains 80,000 feet high to cold-storage their fossils in was begun. This latter was quite indispensable, for there would be no end of failures again, no end of extinctions -- millions of them -- and it would be cheaper and less trouble to can them in the rocks than keep tally of them in a book. One does not build the coal beds and 80,000 feet of perpendicular Old Red Sandstone in a brief time -- no, it took twenty million years. In the first place, a coal bed is a slow and troublesome and tiresome thing to construct. You have to grow prodigious forests of tree-ferns and reeds and calamites and such things in a marshy region; then you have, to sink them under out of sight and let them rot; then you have to turn the streams on them, so as to bury them under several feet of sediment, and the sediment must have time to harden and turn to rock; next you must grow another forest on top, then sink it and put on another layer of sediment and harden it; then more forest and more rock, layer upon layer, three miles deep -- ah, indeed it is a sickening slow job to build a coal-measure and do it right!
So the millions of years drag on; and meantime the fish-culture is lazying along and frazzling out in a way to make a person tired. You have developed ten thousand kinds of fishes from the oyster; and come to look, you have raised nothing but fossils, nothing but extinctions. There is nothing left alive and progressive but a ganoid or two and perhaps half a dozen asteroids. Even the cat wouldn't eat such. Still, it is no great matter; there is plenty of time, yet, and they will develop into something tasty before man is ready for them. Even a ganoid can be depended on for that, when he is not going to be called on for sixty million years.
The Palaeozoic time-limit having now been reached, it was necessary to begin the next stage in the preparation of the world for man, by opening up the Mesozoic Age and instituting some reptiles. For man would need reptiles. Not to eat, but to develop himself from. This being the most important detail of the scheme, a spacious liberality of time was set apart for it -- thirty million years. What wonders followed! From the remaining ganoids and asteroids and alkaloids were developed by slow and steady and pains-taking culture those stupendous saurians that used to prowl about the steamy world in those remote ages, with their snaky heads reared forty feet in the air and sixty feet of body and tail racing and thrashing after. All gone, now, alas -- all extinct, except the little handful of Arkansawrians left stranded and lonely with us here upon this far-flung verge and fringe of time.
Yes, it took thirty million years and twenty million reptiles to get one that would stick long enough to develop into something else and let the scheme proceed to the next step.
Then the Pterodactyl burst upon the world in all his impressive solemnity and grandeur, and all Nature recognized that the Cainozoic threshold was crossed and a new Period open for business, a new stage begun in the preparation of the globe for man. It may be that the Pterodactyl thought the thirty million years had been intended as a preparation for himself, for there was nothing too foolish for a Pterodactyl to imagine, but he was in error, the preparation was for man, Without doubt the Pterodactyl attracted great attention, for even the least observant could see that there was the making of a bird in him. And so it turned out. Also the makings of a mammal, in time. One thing we have to say to his credit, that in the matter of picturesqueness he was the triumph of his Period; he wore wings and had teeth, and was a starchy and wonderful mixture altogether, a kind of long-distance premonitory symptom of Kipling's marine:
'E isn't one O'the reg'lar Line,
nor 'e isn't one of the crew,
'E's a kind of a giddy harumfrodite [hermaphrodite] --
soldier an' sailor too!
From this time onward for nearly another thirty million years the preparation moved briskly. From the Pterodactyl was developed the bird; from the bird the kangaroo, from the kangaroo the other marsupials; from these the mastodon, the megatherium, the giant sloth, the Irish elk, and all that crowd that you make useful and instructive fossils out of -- then came the first great Ice Sheet, and they all retreated before it and crossed over the bridge at Behring's strait and wandered around over Europe and Asia and died. All except a few, to carry on the preparation with. Six Glacial Periods with two million years between Periods chased these poor orphans up and down and about the earth, from weather to weather -- from tropic swelter at the poles to Arctic frost at the equator and back again and to and fro, they never knowing what kind of weather was going to turn up next; and if ever they settled down anywhere the whole continent suddenly sank under them without the least notice and they had to trade places with the fishes and scramble off to where the seas had been, and scarcely a dry rag on them; and when there was nothing else doing a volcano would let go and fire them out from wherever they had located. They led this unsettled and irritating life for twenty-five million years, half the time afloat, half the time aground, and always wondering what it was all for, they never suspecting, of course, that it was a preparation for man and had to be done just so or it wouldn't be any proper and harmonious place for him when he arrived.
And at last came the monkey, and anybody could see that man wasn't far off, now. And in truth that was so. The monkey went on developing for close upon 5,000,000 years, and then turned into a man - to all appearances.
Such is the history of it. Man has been here 32,000 years. That it took a hundred million years to prepare the world for him is proof that that is what it was done for. I suppose it is. I dunno. If the Eiffel tower were now representing the world's age, the skin of paint on the pinnacle-knob at its summit would represent man's share of that age; and anybody would perceive that that skin was what the tower was built for. I reckon they would, I dunno.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
