Scandals and conflicts lead many Christians to distance themselves from Cristianity," says
Darren Sherkat, a sociologist at Southern Illinois University in
Carbondale, who has studied the unaffiliated. "A perhaps growing
percentage are disaffiliated because they don't hold Christian beliefs."
VIDEOS: Fight at Church in Jerusalem . Monks Fight
No score for this post
November 12 2008, 1:15 AM
VIDEOS: Fight at Church in Jerusalem . Monks Fight
To the Armenian church, the attempted exclusion amounts to being told that Armenian Orthodox clerics may communicate with God only through the superior Greek Patriarchate, said George Hintlian, an Armenian historian who served for 25 years on the patriarchates restoration committee.
The faithful kicked, punched and lashed out at each other with candles at the revered spot where Christians believe Jesus was buried and resurrected.
Several followers were left with black eyes, bruises and cuts as priests tried to tear their rivals' robes off in the brawl.
The famous pilgrimage site is used by several religious denominations.
But such are the rivalries that the church keys have been entrusted for centuries to two Muslim families.
Finious, at least the Greeks and Armenians were fighting and only gave each other bloody noses. It does not mean they loss their Christian beliefs.
But what of the different Muslim groups. They kill each other in the name of Islam? No, I do not think Muhammad spread this kind of word to his people. It is only the fault of human savagery and thought, just like the punches thrown in Jerusleum.
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Jesus must be weeping, especially in light of one of His final prayers in which He asked the Father to make them one, even as you and I are one. (John 17:21) And that is without even mentioning His statement that the world would know that we are His disciples by the love we have for one another. (John 13:35) The world will look at that story and have further justification for not believing or following Jesus. Why should they. His own people are punching it out over who has a right to control the space where Jesus rose from the grave. How crazy is that?
It is easy to point at some dueling monks and see how wrong they are. Yet in less dramatic ways selfishness, pride, and conceit are evident in the lives of followers of Jesus everyday...... http://www.addictedtowar.com/atw1a.html
Demosthenes;
There is a civil war in iraq since 2003 , that is not a religion war.
Muslims didn't kill each other like 16th century europe
We say that we are muslim , not sunni or shia but you say we are catholic or ortodaox or protestan bla bla bla...
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These guys seem to forget that DEEDS are more important than just simply BELIEFS which is what Holy Scriptures teach in Judaism and Christianity and especially since Orthodoxy has a stronger tie to Judaism.
I think people from EVERY religion have neglected their own teachings to suit other interests and/or their own PERSONAL interpretations. Look at Saudi Arabia were women can't even drive, or in former Taliban Afghanistan who believed that women wearing nail polish should have their hands amputated.
In Iraq Sunni and Shia are fighting and are attacking each others. One side backed by Iran who oppresses its own Sunni population and Saudi Arabia who oppresses their own Shia population and both want influence in Iraq through their interpreted religious wars.
The point is that religion is personal and should stay personal. No one knows God and no one knows what God is thinking or doing. and no one has the right to say that what I believe in is right and what anyone else believes is wrong. Which is why Greece is one of the only countries that ban missionaries and attempts to convert people to any religion including Orthodoxy.
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No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another (Quran 6:164)
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)
None can reject that in these two verses, the first from the Quran and the second from the Bible, is an allusion to the same meaning: that the Just God will never punish people for the sins of others.
Christianity alleges that God created humans to live eternally in Heaven, and that when Adam ate from the tree from which he had been forbidden; God punished him through death and banishment from Heaven. They further assert that as death was inherited by his progeny, so too was the sin of their father, which was a permanent stain on the hearts of humanity, never to be removed except through a sacrifice so great that it would oblige God to forgive humanity. This sacrifice would be nothing other than the sacrifice of God himself, incarnate in His son Jesus. Therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed, except through the belief that God became incarnate and died for Adams sin, ritualized as Baptism, through which Christians are born again into the world, but this time free of sin. So we see that the theory of Original Sin forms the basis of various Christian beliefs, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the concept of salvation and savior from Hell. It forms the very basis for the mission of Jesus himself.
So the questions arise, is humanity guilty for the sin which Adam committed by eating from the tree he was forbidden? Must we all repent from that great sin? In what way is one to repent? And if so, what is the fate of those who did not?
Islam strictly promotes the notion that the punishment of sins will only be faced by those who commit them. Sin is not a hereditary trait or stain passed to ones progeny one generation to another. All people will be accountable to what only they themselves did in this life. Therefore, even though the Quran mentions the sin of Adam and how he was banished from the Garden, it places no responsibility on the shoulders of his progeny. None of the Prophets before Jesus were known to have preached this concept, nor were any other beliefs or rituals based upon this belief. Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad, may God praise him, as well.
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The 220,000 Serb orthodox and Croation chatolic forces
(terrorists) in Bosnia who slaughtered 200,000
innocent Muslim civilians, raped 50,000 Muslim
women, 8.000 males over 12 yeares of age slaughtered
at "Srebrenica massacre".More than 1200 mosques and
cultural institutions went up in flames in Bosnia and
Hercegovina.( since 1992-1995 )
P.S
Where the orthodox Serbs ans Croatians drown their inspiration to slaughter and rape
Bosnian Muslims is not indeed difficult. Yes, these verses are from the holy Bible.
Kill those who are NOT Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus
22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is
different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10 kill all
the inhabitants of any city where you find people that
worship differently than you.
Deuteronomy 13:12-16 kill everyone who has religious
views that are different than your own.
Deuteronomy 17:2-7 kill anyone who refuses to
listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
But as for these enemies of mine (Jesus Christ),
who did not want me to reign over them, bring them
here and slay them before me.
(Bible: New Testament: Luke 19:27)
You're right, Finious. But mind you that Christinaty has nothing to do with religion of Jesus. It was created by Jewish Paul the Apostle for the known reasons. Islam was sent due to the fact that both religions of Moses and Jesus were degenerated.
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The concept of "Original Sin" is not the specific sin of Adam himself. It means Sin in general (act that violates a moral rule), its called the original sin because it was the first time according to the Tanakh that humans disobeyed Hashem (God), and the practice of Sin continued by humans after. No one is responsible for the actions of Adam but are responsible for their OWN acts of original sin which in this case meaning disobeying a rule of Hashem. Baptism for Orthodoxy means cleansing or symbolically rejected the concept of sin. It can also mean "starting anew" for older people who want to turn their lives around, sort of a commitment to become a better person. But without carrying out good deeds and actually avoiding sin it means nothing.
"therefore Christianity deems all of humanity as damned to Hell for the sin of Adam from which they could never be cleansed"
Technically speaking Original Early Christianity that comes directly from Judaism which is Orthodoxy; no one actually goes to Heaven or Gehenna (Hell) until after the Final Judgment. It is believed that all souls must go to Sheol (Bosom of Abraham) and remain there, were ones deeds committed during their lives will reflect their experience in Sheol (The righteous of people will rest in happiness while the great sinners will be tormented). The sacrifice of Yeshua fulfilled the prophecy of a sign of the future Final Judgment.
"Rather, salvation from Hell and attainment of Paradise was achieved through the belief in One God and obedience to His commandments, a message preached by all prophets, including Muhammad"
OK. You lost me here. I thought Islam was about faith through one God and obeying his commandments like the other Abrahamic religions; but which Islam is the "true Islam" which seems to be disputed by thousands of Muslim scholars all over the world and throughout history. The Sunni claim to be the ONLY true Islam and that the Shia (who use a different Shahadda and have different practices/rituals) are not Muslim and certain Shia scholars in turn claim the Sunnis follow inaccurate/unbinding hadiths and are therefore not true Muslims. There are about 73 divisions of Islam and movements within divisions, such as Nation of Islam who believe that God is a black man and that black people are the ONLY righteous people of God. It all goes back to PERSONAL interpretations that exists in every religion (This does not mean of course that any of them are right or wrong or that being part of any of them (or any religion) is the right or wrong path to heaven).
In the end no matter what anyone believes, it is their business -- no one else's!!! It is ONE PERSON'S EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH HASHEM (GOD). No one else is allowed to interfere or say squat.
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Hold a sec 200,000??? that's interesting because according to the UN and the world for that matter Srebrenica resulted in the loss of 8000 people. So either the whole world is lying or they just happened to miss and only you didn't 192,000 people of course this is awful as are all atrocities. But what about 1.5 million Armenians killed by Ottomans, What about 42,000 Greeks killed in Chios, what about the Assyrians in Iraq, tribes in Sudan, aid workers and civilians in Afghanistan the list is endless. You also see that I don't use words like Christian civilians like you use the words Muslim civilians as if them being part of the Muslim faith or any faith gives anyone more or less value as a person. They are atrocities committed human to human, nationality to nationality.
"Christinaty has nothing to do with religion of Jesus. It was created by Jewish Paul the Apostle for the known reasons. Islam was sent due to the fact that both religions of Moses and Jesus were degenerated"
And, what do you mean by "degenerated?" You mean what YOU consider a degenerated or wrong kind of Faith. Are YOU the only person who determines what Faith is? Get off the Holier than Thou bit -- that means, what YOU believe in is more important in the eyes of Hashem (God), THAN WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS.
Wouldn't God's only concern be that we "love our neighbor as ourselves?"
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Degeneration: the process of becoming worse or less acceptable in quality or condition.
I determined that with brain and conscience as well as it was already mentioned in Kuran. You must be either fanatic of that ideology or mentally retarded not to see that.
well thank you, GOD.... for telling the rest of us just what you have in mind.
You mean what YOU interpret it as which comes back to Holier than thou translation (What I believe in is more important than what anyone else believes in)
People from other faiths and many scholars will disagree with you because that is THEIR interpretation of the same books and respectfully your not qualified (nor is anyone else) to decide just what is the "right faith" and what is not.
Well, respectfully, you don't know me. It's a bit presumptuous of you to make any assessments.
And ultimately, no matter what I say. No matter what anyone says. No matter if it makes sense or not. Faith is a personal issue between one and God.
And I respect everyones beliefs as I do yours.
Problem is, you don't respects mine.
Why is that?
As it has been said in Abrahamic religious scripts
"Do Not Judge, Lest Ye Be Judged."
Translation, shut the f*** up.
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Well what is the religion of Christianity and Judaism (which according to you, you must be either a fanatic or mental retard to believe), the laws of God ("Yahweh") and the teachings of Moses and Yeshua (Jesus).
As well, those specific interpreted quotations were the codified Hebrew laws believed to have been written to be practiced for that particular part of time (estimated 1500BC)right after the Exodus; although they are not commonly believed (by Jews or Christians) as applicable for the modern day; This was also a teaching of Yeshua.
As well,certain isolated interpretations of Islam today practice and impose laws similar as this (Talibanism, Saudi Wahhabism); I though would never turn around and say "Islam is therefore a wrong or degenerated religion". Instead; this ideology should not be allowed to force itself on people (No religion has that right)
There is a difference between saying I don't believe in certain aspects of a religion, but when you say that these religions are AS A FACT degenerated, therefor wrong, then you criticize a persons belief, and you are not qualified to say any religion is degenerated (nor is anyone).
As well for Fineous, please do some research before you post "quotations" because yours are not direct quotes but "interpreted quotes" rewritten.
example
Kill those who are NOT Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus
22:20
Exodus will not say "Kill those who are NOT Christian or Jewish" since Yeshua (Jesus) would not come for estimated 1500 years after the time of Exodus; therefor the Christian belief at that time did not exist.
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Where is your proof? Evidence please! Half a truth works like a half parachute is often a great lie. Your source is indeed pure default. False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil.
See, how nicely we support our arguments with genuine proofs. The hadith says at the end will be 73 sects. So far in Christianity you have 33.000 sects (denominations) and 51 Bible, and every one is claiming only truth and rest unreliable. It is highly unsurprising that with so many Christian denominations and 'differences' within the church that people outside the church use this as a reason for not becoming Christians - "since you can't agree between yourselves when in actual fact naming a particular denomination is just like naming a baby.
P.S.
The Sunni branch believes that the first four
caliphs--Mohammed's successors--rightfully took his
place as the leaders of Muslims. They recognize the
heirs of the four caliphs as legitimate religious
leaders. These heirs ruled continuously in the Arab
world until the break-up of the Ottoman Empire
following the end of the First World War. Shiites, in
contrast, believe that only the heirs of the fourth
caliph, Ali, are the legitimate successors of
Mohammad. Shiites accepted Qur'an in full. There is
only among them some Political differences but not
theological.
Te differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.
One of the first things one notices when one compares
a Protestant Bible with a Catholic or Orthodox
edition, is how much thinner the Protestant Bible is.
This thinness has nothing to do with smaller print or
finer paper, but is because seven entire books and
significant sections of some other books have been
removed from the Old Testament of Protestant Bibles.
In this way Catholics came to have a Bible of 73
books, and most Protestants a Bible of 66 books.
But what gave the Bible its authority? Jesus did not
leave us the Bible. The New Testament books were not
written until many years after his death. The Old
Testament did exist, but its individual books were
kept as separate scrolls and not bound together. Books
as we know them, with bound and turnable pages, were
"new technology" unknown in the 1st Century, They did
not come into use until the 4th Century.
In fact the Bible as we know it dates from the Council
of Rome, called by Pope Damascus in 382 AD, which
decided on the number and order of the books that were
to be accepted as Scripture. This was considered final
by all the churches until 1520. The Bible therefore
did not precede the Church; it was a creation of the
Church.
This seems an amazing thing to be done by people who
claim to love and revere the Bible. Among them are the
theological differences. Which Bible is a word of
God?????
I apologize for making a mistake - here is a correction.
This thinness has nothing to do with smaller print or
finer paper, but is because seven entire books and
significant sections of some other books have been
removed from the Old Testament of Chatolic Bibles.
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Thank you, GOD...for telling me what you have in mind: Your not Holier than Thou...Get over it.
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil"
And you don't know any of this. It MAY actually be so. You don't have the answer and neither do I. Get off the Holier than thou bit.
and what do you mean by "false words"??? I am under the impression that all I have been saying here is that no matter what people believe in... ITS THEIR EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH HASHEM (God)... and its THEIR BUSINESS. You are NO ONE and have no right(nor does anyone else)to say that what YOU believe in is right and what ANYONE ELSE believes in is wrong.
Well if its only politics and not religion than why do the Sunni Wahhabists declare that the Shiites are heretics and therefore NOT Muslim (different Shahadda, different interpretations,and religious practices/rituals). Why did the Taliban massacre the Shiite population in Herat because according to their interpretation of Islam the Shiites are NOT Muslim. Even a top Saudi Sunni cleric (Abdul Rahman al-Barak) declared that Shiites are "worse than Christians and Jews". In Shiite Iran the Sunnis are heavily discriminated and the Shia government of Iran sends missionaries to preach in Sunni populated areas to convert people to what they would call the "true faith",why would you need to convert people to the same religion?. This same situation is present in other interpretations of Islam (like in all wonderful religions),there is also the Nation Of Islam who believe that if your not a black person than you are to be considered an "inferior person" in the eyes of God. It all goes back to PERSONAL INTERPRETATION and NO ONE can say that what THEY believe is more important than what ANYONE ELSE thinks.
And what do I care about what the Catholics and Protestants or what ANYONE else thinks, ITS THEIR EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH HASHEM (God), and its THEIR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION, and I respect that. No one can say that believing or not believing in this or that is the so called "right" or "wrong" faith because we are not qualified to make that assessment.
"The New Testament books were not written until many years after his death"
True, they were written by the disciples (students) of Yeshua (Jesus) and by people who knew them and recorded their testimonies to the life Yeshua, and his teachings(religiously/Historically speaking). Also each Gospel was written individually, and in different locations after the disciples parted ways and went to different places. That is, since each Gospel was written in different locations and individually written by his disciples or through their own recorded testimonies from scribes and are all when compared identical to the same events, teachings, reformed laws, His birth from a virgin, death, resurrection,final message, sign of a future Final Judgment Day. Its a sort of four witnesses to the fact or events. This was further supported after the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and analyzing the prophecies given by Moses and other prophets in a religious point of view. Whether you believe in this or not is faith and no can say that it is or it isn't the true path.
So, getting back to your wonderful, well intentioned post -- while I respect you as a person of letters, I also understand it is your "Mission" to go and tell anyone you meet that their religion is false and that only yours is true.
There, we disagree.
Live and let live.
And no one has the right to judge anyone else.
That job is already taken.
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I SAID both religions of Moses and Jesus had been degenerated and you must have been either fanatic of that ideology or mentally retarded not to see that.
All those sects in Islam are political and have nothing to do with true Islam. Islam was also degenerated in a sense. Considering the situation of most Muslim nations, it's not so difficult to put them into practice. But it keeps preserving it's originality on a large scale.
Christianity had been created by Jewish Paul the Apostle, not Jesus. So it's not original. You probably didn't read what I wrote; It's written in Kuran that Christianity and Jewishness had been degenerated. So it was not me who decided that. Yet you can also get this with the brain and conscience given to you.
" You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20 "
Very acceptable...especially counting victims of Christianity.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 15, 2008 5:28 PM
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In your interpretation they are not the true Islam, but if I were to ask a Wahhabist they would say that THEY are the ONLY true Islam and any other interpretation of Islam is false. The Taliban have stated that their rule in Afghanistan was the only "true Muslim country" in the world, and that killing "non-believers" is their obligation as to what THEY say is instructed in the Quran. The Lafziyah interpretation of Islam believe that the Quran is not the word of God but only in its meaning therefor all other Muslims who believe that it is from God are wrong. Problem is that they have applied their religion and interpretations to politics (as have ALL religions through their interpretations)
Christianity as believed by definition, comes from the teachings of Yeshua (Jesus)/the laws of God ("Yahweh"). Paul was a preacher but has no significants in the practice of Christianity since he simply used the Gospels(records of the life and teachings of Yeshua from his students)to preach. Paul is more of a historical significance than a religious one, since his letters and records are used to trace the politics and events developing at that time. Through your interpretation one could argue that Islam was created by Mohamed and spread by many different Caliphs and therefor not "original". And what exactly makes a certain religion "original" (true),and another one "degenerated" (wrong), we are not qualified to correctly answer that. We follow and believe what we THINK is a right religion. The saying goes; believe what you will, but don't knock on MY door.
I actually understand why deeply religious people, especially in the Evangelical (right wing) Christian,and aspects of the Islamic Faith find it necessary to utter phrases like "Your religion is wrong because...etc "fill in the blank" or "because my personal belief tells me this therefor everyone else is wrong". And, it's because this interpretation seems to infer that without Faith (that particular Faith only), you are doomed.
And, I reject that.
In either case, I don't want another human being telling me squat. Whether their Faith tells them to, or not.
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Wahhabism was supported by Britain against Turkish domination in Arabia. Taliban is an oppressive regime in where people have the lowest literacy rate in the world. It's known that all they are supported by Western Powers just like Ottoman Empire had supported sects of Christianty in the Western World. What are being done has no ground and not agree with the common sense. Neither sex change operations nor killing homosexuals are mentioned in Kuran. But that's the procedure in Islamic Republic of Iran. Alevis in Turkey don't go into Mosque due to the fact that Ali was assasinated in a Mosque. Such Ideologies' supporters are generally least educated people who are good for nothing that originates from their feeling in need of belonging to a certain group to have something different in the society.
There is a single Kuran that was written by Mohammed. There are 500 Bibles which were written by others apart from Jesus. Thanks to Paul, superioty of Jews comes out to the first plan. Yet the main degeneration of Christianity is that both Mary and Jesus are viewed as if God and Jesus was son of God as it was mentioned in Kuran. That's the main ideology of modern Christianity. If you don't agree with that then how come you are a Christian?
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Wahhabism is an interpretation and a division of Islam who believe that people like YOU are heretics (non-Muslim). The Taliban justified their rule through THEIR interpretations of what it is said in the Quran which is why they massacred the Shiite population in Herat and Bamiyan because they believe it is their "obligation" to do so. Non-Muslims are almost daily attacked in Pakistan and converts to other religions are arrested and/or attacked in Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc... because that it is what THEY interpret as their duty to kill "non believers" or converts. According to THEIR interpretation of the Quran they have "grounds" to do what they do, YOUR interpretation says they don't and that YOUR interpretation is the "right faith" and their you see the division and this exists in ALL religions and in ALL levels of society/education.
So what? The Hindus follow the Vedas (four Holy books of Hinduism) and they are all the same, can they now claim that only Hinduism is the "true" faith. If you follow this concept that means that Atheists who not only ALL have the same belief fundamentals (that their is no afterlife or God) but also have no different interpretations of their beliefs. Through this can they now claim that Atheism is the only "truth" because they are fully united in their beliefs and interpretations much more than Muslim,Christian,Hindu etc.. unity.
Christianity is belief in what is written in the Gospels (records of the life and teachings of Yeshua (Jesus) according to his students) Paul is insignificant theologically, he is referenced as a historical source to trace the politics and events developing at that time. Christianity ALL has the same message as to what is taught by Yeshua which is coincidently the very definition of Christianity, what people disagree on is other interpretations (same as in all major religions).
"Yet the main degeneration of Christianity is that both Mary and Jesus are viewed as if God and Jesus was son of God"
And you don't know this. You don't know God or what is the "true faith". You have never met Yeshua (which is why only the Gospels are considered credible in Christianity since those who wrote them and their primary source are from people who actually knew him; his students). whether you believe in this or not is faith, but you don't know what is the "true faith" and what is "degenerated" (wrong). This is simply because we are not qualified to give a correct answer (regardless to what our PERSONAL faith tell us).
I personally like the traditional Orthodox Christian/Jewish idea. That is, DEEDS not BELIEFS will be the final factor in getting into heaven or not. Also no one's belief system is your business (that's a cornerstone of traditional Orthodox/Jewish Theology -- generally does not have Missionaries/Dawah) we are not allowed to tell anyone their God or religion is wrong...that's a personal relationship between YOU and GOD. No human beings are allowed to interfere. "Who the f*** do you think you are" speaks to the very nature of our Religious Thought -- which is: No one is better than anyone else. And that the righteous of ALL people get into heaven; not the righteous of the "true faith".
so once again, believe what YOU will, but don't knock on MY door.
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(which is why only the Gospels are considered credible in Christianity since those who wrote them and their primary source are from people who actually knew him; his students)
But as for these enemies of mine (Jesus Christ),
who did not want me to reign
over them, bring them here and slay them before me.
(Bible: New Testament:Luke 19:27)
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Its an atheist interpretation. btw Elohim simply means "the all powerful one" or "Lord" in Hebrew and "Yahweh" is believed to be the "name" of God (proper pronunciation)revealed to Moses by God. This is so basic and its the same situation with most of their theories, are you sure these are even historians??? Whatever THEY believe I respect, but once again its simply THEIR interpretation.
Ok, once again I can't emphasis this enough; please, do your research before you make an argument or post quotations. Even the "historians" seem to forget this.
Luke 19:27
It's part of a parable, about a king who entrusted his servants with money to invest while he was away on a trip. All but one of the servants invested the king's money wisely. The servant who buried his money was condemned.
This can be interpreted as a sign of a future Final Judgment where people will be judged by their deeds (in a Orthodox Christian point of view- the teachings of Yeshua which is "love thy neighbor as thy self" (good deeds). Those who have done good deeds (invested wisely)will go to heaven and those who have not (buried the money) will go to Gehenna (hell). Whether you believe in this or not is faith, no one can say that it is right or wrong.
and finally: get off the Holier than Thou bit. I don't care how much you scream and cry, trying to convince me that what I believe in is wrong and what only YOU believe in is the "true faith". TELLING SOMEONE only you have the right Faith is insulting and no one should stand for it. Not if someone rings your doorbell...not if someone writes on a forum...not at any time...anywhere.
The proper response is: Who the F*** do you think YOU are.
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Wahhabists are followers of Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab who played an important role in constitution of Saudi Arabia. That's why it's powerfull in SA as the church in Greece. Instigating people using religion is a general base such as marketing properties in heaven by Vatican once. It doesn't say to kill or attack to non-Muslims in Kuran's itself so it has no "ground". Encouraging to kill hundred thousands of people badly for the crusade has rather "grounds" in the Bible where one of two words is "to kill". They were also Greek priests who made leadership to Turkish massacres. I meant it for conservative followers of those sects. Hinduism is different than Abrahamic Religions. They have a certain point. However, it doesn't vomit the hate such as Christianity or Jewishness.
You forgot that quotation: "...as it was mentioned in Kuran."
"Those who call son of Mary Allah had become infidels." (Maide: 72)
"Those who say Allah is one of the three Gods had become infidels." (Maide: 73)
"They obtained their scholars and priests as God." (Tevbe 31)
"Christian priests exploited their people." (Tevbe 34)
"They said they were sons of the God." (Maide 18)
"They concealed the right intentionally." (Al-i Imran: 71)
"They slandered as God had adopted child." (Bekara 116)
"They denied verses of the God". (Al-i Imran: 70)
"They slandered to God." (Al-i Imran: 78)
"They concealed the information in their books." (Maide: 15)
"They said only Jews and Christians would go to heaven." (Bekara: 111)
"Tell them: 'If heaven is only for you, wish to die then'. But they never wish to die because what have their hands done(their sins). God is who knows the cruels." (Bakara: 94-95)
I DO know it. Europeans are not so wise nations. They were much worse until 18th century. They couldn't/can't perceive the God truly. They used to need something concrete and used pharaohs instead of God. That's why Mohammed banned his own painting and sculptures. I also KNOW that murdering, raping, slavery...etc. are WRONG. So Bible is WRONG. Not even degenerated what means the process of becoming worse or less acceptable in quality or condition.
Deeds come with Beliefs. It's true for the beliefs however: "Most of them(Jews) won't have faith in God." (Bekara: 100; Nisa: 155) I'm already NOT interested in anyone's belief. I'm just telling my opinions which are true for me...and finally, I didn't knock your door.
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There are many things I don't agree with "practiced Islam". For example, I don't celebrate festival of sacrifice what I strongly oppose. It originates from: " The devil tempted Ibrahim by saying he should disobey Allah and spare his son. As Ibrahim was about to kill his son, Allah intervened: instead Allah provided a lamb as the sacrifice. "
This is why today all over the world Muslims who have the means to, sacrifice an animal, as a reminder of Ibrahim's obedience to Allah. Only right reason for this nonsense could be for charity. However, some people consume the meat they sacrificed. Then it doesn't make any sense since it was not shared out with the poorer members of the community. But it was based on that era's situation. They had better make a financial donation instead in the 21th century. Besides everybody can afford meat, supermarkets are everywhere...for Turkey at least.
On the other hand, "sacrifice" means much more general dedication, altruism and gratitude in Islam...
" Their meat and blood never reach to God. What is going to reach to God are only your actions and services for him/her far from showing off. " (Hacc 22/36;37)
It depends on logical interpretation, rather than taking it simply. Importance of using your mind is also mentioned in Kuran. I had mentioned my definition of God and belief before. Now that it also exists in my culture, there is no reason for me to be a Muslim. It's none of anyone's business, especially those who believe that people like me are heretics, since they don't have got the patent of the religion.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 22, 2008 5:38 PM
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The discovery of the Pharaoh's body took place after an interval of 3000 years (1881-1898). Considering that the Kuran had predicted that Pharaoh's body would constitute a sign, one supposes that it should have been found. Indeed it was found. After a time gap of 3000 years in the Red Sea coast...
90- " We took the children of Israel across the sea. Pharaoh and his army followed them aggressively and sinfully. When drowning became a reality for him, he said, 'I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the children of Israel believe. I am of those who submit.'
91- " Ah now! For you have rebelled in the past, and you did mischief. "
92- " Today, We will throw you with your dead body somewhere higher than sea, so that you may become a sign to those who come after you. But verily, many people are heedless of Our signs. "
(Yunus Sura)
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They are an interpretation of Islam, as their are many others whom each claim to be the "true faith" and all others (including other Muslims) are wrong and "non believers". Well tell that to those today who are harming people around in the world all claiming to have "grounds" in THEIR interpretations (this is found in all religions).
Greece is culturally Orthodox, which is why Greece has one of the best religious rights in the world for all faiths. Muslims prior to population exchange till today are all represented in all institutions and are able to actively participate in politics etc... as I've explained in other posts. In Turkey Greeks can't even have a cleric school. I said Hinduism like all religions can't claim to be the "true faith" even if THEIR faith and writings tell them that its the only "truth".
"You forgot that quotation: "...as it was mentioned in Kuran."
and like I've said before, this is BELIEF. All religions in a way will say that their beliefs are the only "truth" and all others are "wrong" for whatever reasons. Believe what YOU will, but your not QUALIFIED to decide anything, even if you believe your faith and interpretation is the ONLY "truth".
"I DO know it. Europeans are not so wise nations"
is why Europe is today is the most powerful continent in the world, most educated, most scientifically advanced, most human rights, healthiest etc...
"They couldn't/can't perceive the God truly"
And how do you know what "truly" is, do YOU know God ("Yahweh"), or better yet do YOU command God and are able to determine just what faith and interpretation is the ONLY "correct" method. Pharaohs were from ancient Egypt , the Torah was the first that brought Semitic monotheism.
I've already mentioned the codified Hebrew laws and what Yeshua taught, although many of the things that you mention are practiced TODAY by extreme interpretations of Islam. Does this mean that these religions overall are wrong.. no.
Beliefs can help inspire and understand the value of good deeds, but there are many good people who have no beliefs at all and have carried out many good deeds. Does this mean that they should be denied anything in a afterlife, we can't determine that but its interesting to keep in mind.
"I'm already NOT interested in anyone's belief. I'm just telling my opinions which are true for me...and finally, I didn't knock your door"
Like what I've said; believe what YOU will, but you have no right since your not qualified (neither is anyone) to say to anyone that THEIR beliefs are degenerated or wrong, and that only YOURS are "true" even if your beliefs and interpretations tell you that it is. To "knock on someones door" in this case means to tell people that their religion is "wrong" and that only YOURS is "true" , and you support this claim by saying because my beliefs tell me that its the only "truth", in this case ALL religions will have the same claim as being the only "truth". I have not once here tried to prove that MY religion is the only "truth" and that any other religion is "wrong" and this is partly because if I did I would be violating my own religious beliefs and more simply because nobody can give a correct answer.
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They are not interpretation. They are just translation of the texts. You're gonna expound it if you believe. Only one Islam was sent as well as the religion of Jesus. Those sects are nothing else but charlatanry. Islam does NOT command to kill anyone unlike Christianity.
Actually exact the opposite. Greece has the worst religious rights in the EU. Athens is the only European capital where no other religious buildings are allowed except for Greek Orthodox churches. Even it's not allowed to repair mosques in Western Thrace. There is not such a demand from Eastern Orthodox people in Turkey. It's just a symbolic desire of the patriarchate while even presence of the Islamic cleric schools are being discussed in secular Turkey. You either say Faith is a personal issue between one and God and then you are speaking of clerical schools. Greek schools in Turkey rather insist on allowance of Turkish students. Even a Bulgarian or Armenian Ortohodox dont go into a Greek Ortohodox church. Who would attend to that school while even most culturally orthodox nations are atheists? Hinduism is not an Abrahamic religion. It's polytheist paganist and people are leaving Hinduism for Islam in India.
Kuran is not a book like Bible(s) or Torah(s). It's single and original. If you are still questioning it's truth, here are some more proofs...
- There are 1389 verses from "sura of Moon" to end of the Kuran. 1389 date in the Hijri calendar is equivalent of 1969 date in the Gregorian calendar which is the date of first landing in Moon.
- First space vehicle called "Sputnik" was launched in 1957. Sura 19, Verse 57 (19:57) : "We sent it up to the sky".
- "Bee" sura is the 16th sura in the Kuran. Number of chromosomes in the Bee: 16
- "Women" sura is the 23th sura in the Kuran. Except for 23th chromosome, all the chromosomes in men and women are the same. 23th chromosome determines the gender of a woman.
- The Sun was made up of hydrogen(H) and helium(HE). All the 15 verses in the "Sun" sura end up with H-E letters without any exceptions.
- Hydrogen element in the Sun also makes up rest of the 91 elements in the nature. Sun sura is the 91th sura in Kuran.
- Nisa sura, 119th verse: "Devil said: I will command them to cut ears of animals and change what the God created!" - First 1th generation and 2th generation animal copying were made by cells from the ear. (by Vitoria cow from Brazil in Kagoshima Institute in Japan)
...and so on.
Asia and America are the most powerfull continents in the world. 450 million people union is surely powerfull in a sense. Yet USA, Japan, China are ahead of EU(maybe only Germany) technologically. They completed their industry evolution exploiting empty or little poor groups continents. They canalized all their sources to economy instead of military, thanks to US. It depends on such conditions. They owe their best social systems to their sheep character. Everybody obey rules in their country. But in Turkey for example, it's impossible to build such a social system because everybody is wise and trying to set up their own order due to rebellious character. As for indicatoral human rights, maybe only in Scandinavian countries who haven't fought since ages becuase of their 3 hour day light and freezing climate. I'm not discussing developement of Northwestern European countries here however.
I meant human-god concept emphasizing pharaohs. Contrary to Trinity nonsense, Jesus was just a human as everybody else.
I know because I have the answers. What you can account for(rather than believe) is the truth for you. Right or wrong. They will turn back to you. But brain and conscience were given to you to find out the right, namely absolute truth. But only a few people can resist against their desires for the absolute truth. Among them, only the ones who have strong souls will promote.
113- And the Jews say: "the Christians follow nothing (true)", and the Christians say: "the Jews follow nothing (true)"; yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Ressurrection concerning that wherein they differ.
120- And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: "No! The guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper."
131- When his Lord said unto him(Abraham): "Be Islam! He said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds."
132- The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): "O my sons! No! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die as only Muslims."
135- And they say: "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided". Say (unto them): "No, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters."
146- Those unto whom(Jews and Christians) We gave the Scripture recognize (Muhammad) as they recognize their sons. But no! A party of them knowingly conceal the truth.
208- O ye believe! Come, all of you, into Islam; and follow not the footsteps of the devil. No! He is an open enemy for you.
[Bakara]
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 25, 2008 4:14 PM
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It is an interpretation because they believe in other things when reading the same texts. Even as you have said they are not following the true Islam. And they will all say the same about YOUR interpretations and call it a fraud, this is including those who believe that it is their right to harm people in the name of THEIR interpretations and claim their guidelines.
Actually the EU has criticized Greece for giving TOO MANY religious freedoms to all faiths because it complicates some institutions in management. Everything is paid by the state and ALL schools including religious are fully funded by the government. There are even Muslims courts run by Muftis that are allowed to settle local Muslim disputes and Mosques are built and supported by the government. This policy begun right after the liberation of Thrace which for that time and even today is almost a dream for other countries. Also in Greece it is illegal to try to convert people to other religions including Orthodoxy. This part of cultural Orthodoxy--- no missionaries, What people believe in is their business no one else can interfere. Although in Turkey people who have changed their religions are known to get harmed by people who claim that it is their duty to do so. Most Greeks have left to go to Greece because of the lack of rights in Turkey. I said can Hinduism claim to be the only true religion because according to their scripts it is (same as its said for all religions).
Who would attend to that school while even most culturally orthodox nations are atheists
This statement makes absolutely no sense, you may wish to re-word it since the words you use are self contradictory.
*Kuran is not a book like Bible(s) or Torah(s). It's single and original*
You mean that YOU BELIEVE that it is,(although many literary experts would disagree with this, but thats THEIR interpretation). It MAY be so, but not YOU nor anyone can give a correct answer.
Asia only grows because of its cheap labor and oil resources, EU is WAY ahead of Asia in technology (Japan being the exception), China and India need to buy and study EU technologies and science to advance their economies; which is why America is worried if EU lifts trade and military export restrictions on China. America has lost its technology advantage which is why American companies are going bankrupt partly because their technology is outdated and EU companies are advancing in new era technologies. If you want to live in a place that is tolerant of other people, has freedom of speech, freedom of religion, protection from cruelty, good health care, education, fair trials, jobs, and opportunity where are you going to go, to Pakistan!!!!
I know because I have the answers
no, YOU are NO ONE and you have no answers because you are not qualified to give any. People who claim that THEIR religion is the ONLY right one and claim to have all the answers are called--- trying to be Holier than Thou. So unless you personally KNOW God (Yahweh), or command God (Yahweh),then YOU can't give any ANSWERS.
So, getting back to your wonderful, well intentioned post -- while I respect you as a person of letters, I also understand it is your "Mission" to go and tell anyone you meet that their religion is false and that only yours is true.
There, we disagree.
No one knows God and no one knows what God is thinking or doing. and no one has the right to say that what I believe in is right and what anyone else believes is wrong. The proper response is: Who the F*** do you think YOU are.
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They are read and then interpreted. Even some people don't read. They are potentionally marvellous magicians who know how to twist and turn facts and create their own version of the truth and apply this talent to the outside world. For example, private universities are also forbbiden in Turkey. But those who would like to establish a private university, set up an education foundation first and then establish a "foundation university" which require fees higher than even British universities. It's known that this is forbidden fundemantally. But it's appropriate with the written laws in that way. Likewise, the same practice is applied in Islam.
Did it? When? Somehow, Greece gives too many freedoms to everything besides being richer than(!) Germany and France, but no immigrants would like to live in Greece except for some Albanians who have relatives in Greece. Greece had better leave church laws first and allow it's female citizens to set foot in Mount Athos. Not even Christians and Jews, let alone secular Muslims in Turkey are harmed by people socially because of their duties. Even Hagia Irene Eastern Ortodox church's existence was allowed although it had remianed in the borders of the Topkapi Palace garden while you still can't even imagine ten percent of such a civilization level in the 21th century Greek capital.
It does make sense. Russia is Orthodox culturally. But it hosts the most atheist population in the world as well as other culturally Orthodox nations in the world.
That's an historical fact, not an interpretation. There is a single and original Kuran(that's why it's called "Kuran the Great" in Islamic countries) while there are over 400 Bibles which were written by apostles and 13 Torahs which were changed so much.
Cheap or not. Asia(what's more only Far East) is much more powerfull than European Union. EU can't lift anything without American permission. Japan is beyond the entire EU technologically. Only Germany has some technological quality that was provided by US. Britain and France are not advanced so much. South European countries are already not advanced. US spends much more money(countrywide) than even total of EU to R&D expenditues. I didn't discuss international indexes which depends on certain conditions. I said Europeans were not so wise nations. According to your theory, Greece must be the most retarded nation in Europe.
You can ask whatever you like. About God, Trinity nonsense, and so on. The answer had already written in the book. It's NOT my "Mission". It's what I believe(as well as your agnosticist belief) that's supposed to be so in accordance with what my mind and logic say. That's what I meant emphasizing you must have been either fanatic of that ideology or mentally retarded not to see that. As I've said before, it had already been written in the Grand Book what God is thinking and doing.
Finally, I think I'm a part of the God as well as everyone and eveything. You also won't get this but anyway.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 28, 2008 2:45 PM
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Which brings us back to the same question--- which interpretation is then the right one because no one can agree on that. Some countries are liberal like UAE while in Saudi Arabia religion is strictly interpreted to the point that non-Muslims can't even permanently live there or have any place of worship. Or like the attacks in Mumbai were people have interpreted their religion and believe that they are entitled to attack innocent people.
It does, which is why Greece does not have internal problems with minorities like you see in other countries. All religions and people are equal before the law is in the constitution and the state has to support and fund religious institutions for everyone. Albanians represent 56% of permanent immigrants to Greece not to mention the unofficial immigrants. A few others will pass through Greece on route to find their relatives in other countries but as a whole the majority will live in Greece. There is no Church law, its cultural law which includes aspects of all social factors in society. The idea of Church law in general is against Orthodox teachings, there are no Church laws (Fatwas,or decrees) a Priest is a teacher and a community servant they are no better than anyone else and can't make laws as opposed to Popes or Caliphates/high clerics. Women can go to Mt Athos but traditionalist male monasteries think that they will distract them from their worship, as such traditionalist female monasteries will also discourage men from going there for the same reason.
Russia's population is secularist which is compatible with Orthodoxy. Atheism makes it a point fundamentally not to take part in any religion or tradition. Soviet Russia was atheist and Orthodoxy and culture was banned from everything. Russians today largely are cultural Orthodox but maybe not conservative, but even there Orthodoxy is an identity and social practice of Russians. An Atheist state today would be Albania.
There are no different Bibles and Torahs there are translations, there is a big difference. The Old Testament is originally in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek, so they are translated to other languages but they each have to be carefully done to preserve the meaning of the originals and usually footnotes are required to fully understand certain meanings. But all translated Bibles have to state that they are a translation and not the original. The same thing is done with English versions of the Quran and other languages. The Apostles were preachers, the Gospels are the teachings of Yeshua and the primary source of this are from his students.
The Quran is recorded into different Arabic and translated into other languages as well as the Bible is. Although there were known to be other versions of it prior to Uthman Ibn Affan who selected an official Quran. This does not make Islam (or any religion) right or wrong but one chooses THEIR truth.
Well practically all economic growth in Asia comes from the East mostly from China, and India. This is from cheap labor and largely occurred because of globalization and American/EU companies expanding their business in Asia; they provide the jobs, the technology, and expertise. China prior to opening its doors had one of the worst managed economies in the world simply because they didn't have the the technology, or expertise. European products and technology in general are far superior because EU focuses more on quality while other on quantity. Other parts of Asia like the Middle East are relied on oil exports they have not contributed to anything else. What will countries like Saudi Arabia do when oil dries up or when the world adopts a new alternative fuel source. EU already has lifted most restrictions on technology exports to China , only military and sensitive strategic technologies are banned but they will be lifted by 2010. American outdated technology is far behind EU which is why many American companies are going bankrupt. Its actually why so many people are trying to get citizenship to Greece for the reasons I have stated.
Certainly one could ASK and BELIEVE/NOT BELIEVE what they will, but one cannot be Holier Than Thou. Belief in the answers to life and the doings of God are written in many books--- The Torah+Bible, Quran, Vedes etc... one chooses their relationship with God, keeping in mind that it is THEIR interpretation of what is the truth. Regarding "agnostic" not at all--- but its followers have to respect other peoples religions and belief, ones relationship with God is their business and no one can claim that their beliefs entitle them to say that everyone else is wrong and only they are right. Your mission here is to try and convince me that ONLY your religion is true and that mine and everyone else is wrong simply because you BELIEVE that yours is true therefor everyone else is wrong. For YOU it may be truth, for others it may not be truth. No one is qualified therefor to give a correct answer.
Certainly I believe that everyone and everything is a part of and from God, but no one can speak for God and claim to now "truth" more than anyone else.
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You can see the truth having read it. As I've said before "Fighting" can be interpreted but "Killing" has a certain meaning. Saudi royal family, as well as other Arabic kingdoms, governs the country as dictatorship and they are using religion to hide behind. Extravagance, ostentation and arrogance are forbidden in Islam. But they love to build houses similar with Dolmabahce Palace where is every yellow thing is gold, sherbet fountains, and throw $20 M parties while most of their counterparts are starving. It depends on by whom such terrorists organizations like Al-Qaeda are supported.
That must be why Greece is the most criticized country on human rights in EU. Still women can't go to Mount Athos and Greek Orthodox churches are working like merchant banks.
Russians are not even secular, they are atheist as well as most of the European nations. But they are culturally Christian. Therefore Turkish people have still mentality of "all Chrisitan women are prostitutes" widely due to the fact that they recognize Russian, French, British...etc. women as Christian women.
Modern Bible was not written by Jesus and the curse of Moses on Jews just before his death point out their wrongness. That's why Islam is the last Abrahamic religion.
Choosing something different than the original one by a group of people doesn't make a religion degenerated.
It all depends on know-how. Science has started in Middle East. Ancient Greeks learned from Middle Eastern civilizations. Romans learned from both Ancient Greeks and Middle Eastern civilizations. Italians improved by Middle Eastern science and Roman heritage. North Europeans learned from Italians and now it has also been spreading. Europe added nothing to Ancient Science. Dogs in the circus can dance perfectly well having been taught. China is currently making one of the highest expenditures on technology in the world and USA is ahead of the EU, which is not a country, in every points. I was mentioning current technology of Greece.
You yourself also perfectly know what you are trying to acquit is as wrong as not to be able to defend. But because of your chauvinistic senses, rather than admit it to yourself, you are trying to create an ambiguity situation, trying to find common defects, which allows yours to rise in your own estimation.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Nov 30, 2008 3:11 PM
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I was talking about different interpretations, you have this in Islam and in all religions. Not just country divisions but tens of thousands of scholars of the same faith who can't agree on anything and all have a different interpretation. This also includes tribes and other sects. What I have been saying was that religion and interpretation depends on the person and what THEY view, therefor no one can say what THEY believe in the ONLY truth.
Greece has been criticized for being TOO LENIENT on religious rights. Since Greece goes beyond just simple religious freedom, such as polygamy which is illegal in national law but is permitted for the Muslim community, Mufti courts, but the problem is some people have over exploited this or misinterpreted it which is why West Thrace Muslim community has a problem with forced marriages which why so many of their youth have moved to other parts of Greece. Women can go to Mt Athos, but male monasteries are forbidden and women monasteries in most of Greece are forbidden for men to enter.
Russians and Europeans are secular, Atheism makes it a point to believe fundamentally not to take part in any religion or religious practice. Secularism can vary over a wide range of beliefs, there are religious-secularists,moderate-secularists and Agnostic-Secularists. Most people in R & E would fall with moderate and Agnostic but all three are compatible with Orthodoxy.
There is no "modern" Bible it is just the Bible. The Gospels are the teachings of Yeshua recorded by his students. All people prophets and kings had scribes and students who would record their teachings and words. In the Book of Exodus the Hebrew people disobeyed Hashem (God) while Moses was on Mt Sinai and that generation who disobeyed where not allowed to enter the future Israelite Kingdom, the next generation was taught to follow the Ten Commandments and were allowed to enter the land. Moses cursed those who disobeyed but those who followed the commandments were blessed and where able to found a country and prosper for thousands of years, even Moses disobeyed Hashem (God) in the end and couldnt enter the land.
There are no different Bibles. They all say the same thing, there are TRANSLATIONS meaning from one LANGUAGE to another but the meaning is kept in all translations which is why footnotes are required. There are translated Qurans as well. Its like saying if one has a history book written in German and then they translate it to English does that mean that the history the English book says is wrong or different from what the German book says.
Simply one has to compare the standards of technology and life between Europe, Middle East, and East Asia, who is highest? Greeks founded most of modern science and the foundation of modern society for that matter which is why Greece was the superpower for that time because no other civilization could compete scientifically. China can mass produce but its technology and production is far inferior, how many Chinese made cars are the highest in standards/quality, or aviation, or just simple every day products. America has lots of industry but its technologies are outdated which why they are closing much faster than opening because they have lost their competitive edge. China needs abroad technologies to develop its economy and has benefited from globalization. Greece is a first world developed country for almost 30 years now, it has higher standards of living and technology than most places in Asia although it does not produce at the massive level as China.
Why, what is wrong with what I've said. If there is something wrong with saying that religion and faith is a personal issue and no one has the right to say that ONLY THEIR religion is right and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong, then prove me wrong. It is you who is trying to be Holier Than Thou.
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What I've said has nothing to do with that. I am generally speaking of your claims. As I've said, you yourself also perfectly know what you are trying to acquit is as wrong as not to be able to defend. But because of your chauvinistic senses, rather than admit it to yourself, you are trying to create an ambiguity situation - besides trying to find common defects - which allows yours to rise and others' to decline to an equal position. Of course you deny that here owing to the same reasons. But when you ask it to yourself honestly and objectively, you will see that's so.
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Greecerox, interpretations are one thing. You are right to say that different scholars within a certain religion has their own view on certain matters.
But the dogmata held by a religion is another. It is above all and is not to be disputed.
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Quite honestly, this must be one of the worst statements I've ever read. I frankly have not made any illogical claims, I've never claimed to KNOW more about God than anyone else, I've never claimed that MY religion is the ONLY truth based on the sole fact that it just happens to be MY religion. YOU have not proven ANY of YOUR claims logically, you have just repeated baseless statements without really any secondary source. And by "chauvinistic" you mean because I don't follow what YOU THINK, are YOU the ONLY one who determines what faith is, anyone who disagrees with YOUR opinion is being chauvinistic. If you have been paying any attention you would have seen that I have not been trying to find or prove anything right or wrong- I have not claimed any religion as being right or wrong simply because no one is qualified to give an answer. Regarding trying to find defects wrong again, I am simply quoting history or the current situation with religions, I have not once tried to prove any religion as overall superior or inferior to another in any means, but when you make insults/unchecked claims about any religion then you should be informed of your error. The only thing that I say to myself in regards to this is that what I believe in is MY business and usually those who try to prove any religion right or wrong will just come out trying to be HOLIER THAN THOU, and if YOU find something illogical with this then prove it.
GreekSlav
True, usually an overall dogmata is undisputed but even elements of a dogmata can be interpreted in a way, it goes back to being liberal or conservative minded in the dogmata. But the point I was trying to make was who cares, religion is a personal issue between one and God and I really could not care about what other people think, because a person claiming to KNOW the truth and that ONLY what THEY PERSONALLY think is right and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong then they are just trying to be Holier Than Thou.
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I told you to ask me what do you want me to prove although I had got some of them across. The fact that you are trying to defend the Bible - and so Christianity - which commands murdering, raping, destroying...etc. is rather chauvinistic because I have never seen any commonsensical one who agreed with that. Answers had been given. Now that you are not brainless, you may as well see it. If you also believe you are part of the God, then you must be capale of making right and fair judgement (besides evidences).
AND,
CONTRADICTORY,
I see that you don't agree with commandments of the Bible and found a personal way to bear to the God, according to your statements, which makes you an UNCHRISTIAN THEORICALLY.
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I don't need YOU to prove anything, simply because your not capable of proving or disproving anything. I have not defended, I have just quoted history or proven fact, I don't feel the need to ask people to ,or not to, follow any religion, that it rather YOUR mission here, to be HOLIER THAN THOU, and to tell people that ONLY YOUR faith is right and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong. Any person could just turn your argument around and say "Islam is therefor a wrong religion" because of its involvement in international terrorism and harming of innocents, and does not recognize human rights, Which is what many Muslim countries and organizations do (that does not mean that the religion overall is wrong but what human personal interpretations has willed to do).
The ancient Codified Hebrew laws are not part of religion I've already answered that. While we may be part of God, we are not Gods personal translator nor do we have the right to speak on Gods behave and tell everyone that ONLY what I think is right and what ANYONE ELSE says is wrong. That is rather the only answer you have given here, that EVERYTHING else is wrong simply because YOUR PERSONAL belief is something else. "right judgment" once again you mean YOUR FAITH you can't determine any faith as right or wrong, just because it does not happen to be YOURS.
When have I mentioned commandments? I said scholars and people can interpret dogmata in a liberal and conservative view. Whatever desperate attempt you try to convince me (and everyone in the world for that matter) that ONLY YOU have the answers to what God does or thinks, trust me millions have/are claiming to have that exclusive privilege so you will have of competition.
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"True, usually an overall dogmata is undisputed but even elements of a dogmata can be interpreted in a way, it goes back to being liberal or conservative minded in the dogmata. But the point I was trying to make was who cares, religion is a personal issue between one and God and I really could not care about what other people think, because a person claiming to KNOW the truth and that ONLY what THEY PERSONALLY think is right and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong then they are just trying to be Holier Than Thou."
I believe if one that is either conservative or liberal minded and has their own interpretation with some elements of their religions dogma, then that person does not fully understand that dogma. There is no interpretation or dispute. It is simply as it is written.
Yes, religion SHOULD be a personal relationship with God and that a person who claims to know the truth and thinks they are right do not really understand anything about being personal with their religion and God. For me, it is a personal relationship with God that may not be the same relationship someone else may have, be it less or more. I never preach and I do not like anyone preaching to me except for the father of my church and anyone above his status within my religion.
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Some will take a direct interpretation, and others a more moral analysis and apply it to that, others will keep their religion to themselves while others will feel the need to force theirs upon others. This is what I mean about interpretation. The overall message is undisputed but in which way to apply it is differently interpreted in all religions.
Whenever someone preaches to other people claiming that ONLY THEIR faith is right and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong-- the only proper response is-- Who the F*** do you think YOU are.
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"Whenever someone preaches to other people claiming that ONLY THEIR faith is right and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong-- the only proper response is-- Who the F*** do you think YOU are."
Yes, they do tend to make me a bit angry, so I have to tell them to take a long walk on a short pier. Usually that silences them.
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Then don't tell me that I didn't prove anything. I AM capable of proving properly...both myself and from the holy book. Maybe it's because you don't feel any sympath towards your parental religion normally. If my faith is wrong, then anyone can disprove me. It's NOT my "Mission". It's what I believe(as well as your belief) that's supposed to be so in accordance with what my mind and logic say. I didn't judge anyone's acts as a starting point. I showed you the original texts from both Kuran and Bible, and showed you the difference.
Scripts of apostles are also NOT part of any religion. If the God is something like an human to you, then how on earth do you believe that you are part of the God? I showed you the truth with the words of the God. I've just got some of them across. It's rather you who behave like a Pope or Patriarch.
Lies are bound to unravel. If my faith is wrong, then anyone can disprove me. I am open to everyone as always...unlike: "What the F*** do you think Kuran is."
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Dec 5, 2008 8:06 PM
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Once again, not surprisingly you missed the point entirely. I said NO ONE can prove or disprove any religion or claim that ONLY THEIR FAITH is right while EVERYONE ELSE is wrong. When did I talk about a "right" or "wrong" faith, I simply said believe what YOU will but you don't have the right to claim other religions as degenerated or wrong simply because its not YOUR religion.
The difference here is that YOU are trying to sell YOUR PERSONAL FAITH and INTERPRETATION as being the ONLY right faith while claiming that what ANYONE ELSE thinks is "degenerated" or "wrong" and YOU don't (nor anyone else) have that right simply because your not qualified. I have never attempted here to disprove everyone else's religion and claim my own as the "only true faith" simply because religion is a PERSONAL ISSUE between ONE and God ("Yahweh") and no has the right to say squat (regardless to what their PERSONAL BELIEF tells them)
"I showed you the original textes from both Kuran and Bible, and showed you the difference"
and?, all I see from your attempt is to claim YOUR FAITH as the ONLY TRUTH and what ANYONE ELSE thinks is wrong. and so what, the Hindus believe that the Vedas are the words of God and can claim that because THEY BELIEVE that they are from God then therefor Hinduism is the ONLY TRUTH, it MAY or may not be and no one can prove or disprove it. Jews and Christians believe the Bible is the word of God and the teachings of prophets in which God spoke through them and the teachings of Yeshua, and it MAY be so or maybe not. It can be believed and not believed and no can prove or disprove it or any religion. The Quran MAY be the word of God or maybe not, it can be believed or not believed in and no one can prove or disprove it. One of the basic laws of civilization says that people are to respect everyone else's religion, and YOU don't have the right to throw YOUR PERSONAL FAITH in everyones faces (nor does anyone else).
"It's rather you who behave like a Pope or Patriarch"
maybe a patriarch since they are only teachers and can offer a theological opinion (like anyone else) but they are no better than anyone else and can't tell people what to think. Incidentally a Patriarch is also called "One among the equals". Its YOU who tries to be HIGHER than everyone else by claiming that ONLY YOUR FAITH is right while what anyone else believes in is "degenerated" and "wrong".
"Lies are bound to unravel. If my faith is wrong, then anyone can disprove me. I am open to everyone as always...unlike: "What the F*** do you think Kuran is."
I don't care about what you believe in, religion is a personal issue between one and God ("Yahweh") but YOU don't have the right to be HOLIER THAN THOU or say squat about other peoples religions (nor does anyone). There is nothing wrong with dialog but a person who claims that THEIR FAITH is the ONLY TRUTH and what ANYONE ELSE believes in is "degenerated" and "wrong" is insulting and no one should stand for it.
So the only proper response to people like that is "who the F*** do you think YOU are".
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I've been tired of repeating all the same stuffs. Last but not least, It was mentioned in Kuran - the last Abrahamic Religion - that Christianity and Judaism were degenerated, and I've also posted some evidences which confirm it's rightness. Well then it depends on your judgement.
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Great, well then keep it to yourself. Its not your business about what other peoples religions are nor can you (nor anyone) act like Gods translator and YOU can't determine any religion as "truth" or "wrong". Well, other Abrahamic religions have come even after Islam such as Bahá'í and even Satanism has been called Abrahamic by some people. And does the order really matter to begin with.
The only thing you are showing are beliefs from YOUR OWN religion. That meaning only those who already follow a particular religion believe what it teaches. I can quote countless verses from other religious books that will point to it being the "truth" and others wrong. It all comes back down to PERSONAL BELIEF, and not YOU (nor anyone) can determine this solely based on YOUR religious belief, because countless others will contradict your bashing with their own from their books. YOU do not know God, and you can't base logic in an argument by simply quoting YOUR religious belief. Once again its not your business, what others think. So stop preaching.
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It is me who decide what I keep to myself and it is my business to find out my trues.
Exactly...and my religion is the last and the true one as it was mentioned. It is rather NOT your business to change verses of the books as your priests did because there shall not be an another religion due to bastardization of the previous one.
As I've said 500 times before, I DON'T care about anyone's beliefs. If you had read it, rather than doing "copy-paste" all the time, you could have understood it. Everybody can freely express their ideas and opinions in Turkey forum and it is not your business what others think. Nobody has to agree with you.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Dec 19, 2008 6:57 PM
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Great, its just too bad that you don't keep your religion to yourself and still try to be holier than thou.
"my religion is the last and the true one"
YOU don't decide what the "truth" or what the "true religion" is. Religion is BELIEF and PERSONAL, Your not holier than thou, get over it!
"It is rather NOT your business to change verses of the books"
When have I even mentioned a verse from any book? It is rather YOU who does this; using personal belief to justify claiming that ONLY what YOU believe in is "true" and what anyone else thinks is "wrong".
"I DON'T care about anyone's beliefs"
If you didn't care then you wouldn't be preaching.
"If you had read it, rather than doing "copy-paste" all the time, you could have understood it"
Actually, if YOU had read it then YOU would have understood the very simplified point presented. But YOU just repeat the same argument over and over again; basically its "my religion is this and my personal belief is this.... and therefore what ANYONE ELSE believes in is wrong and degenerated and ONLY I know the "truth" about religions".
"it is not your business what others think. Nobody has to agree with you"
I will have to ask the same question to you. Its not YOUR business what other people believe in.... and your holier than thou stunt attempts are why religious extremism is such a major problem in the world today. Because they think that ONLY their way of belief is correct and EVERYTHING ELSE is degenerated and wrong including the people who follow the same religion in another interpretation.
Hey I am the one saying "believe what YOU will, but don't knock on MY door", your the one here saying "My personal belief is the only truth and everything else is degenerated and wrong" (simply based on the fact that they all just happen not to be your religion).
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Religion is personal/belief and interpretation is opinion. You will say this and another sect of Islam will interpret it as another (its the same in all religions). And what if another religious book says the opposite and who's followers believe it as from God and all other religions are wrong for the same reasons you claim. When one justifies an argument purely based on THEIR religion (their belief) its an argument that goes nowhere and I think it has been proven here.
Religion stands as a PERSONAL ISSUE between one and God ("Yahweh") and no one has the right to interfere or tell you squat claiming the holier than thou status. So once again--- believe what YOU will, but don't knock on MY door and start telling me about it.
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"WRONG" has a certain meaning and you CANNOT interpret it as "RIGHT". Bible(s) and Torah(s) can't say anything about Islam because Kuran is the last book which makes it the final decision of the God. I've said a thousand times that religion was a personal issue. So last again, I didn't knock your door according to your perspective. It's you who is trying to acquit something, not me.
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Then tell that to the Lafziyah Muslims who believe that the Quran is not the word of God and only its meaning is. Or the Ibriyah Muslims who don't recognize any prophets. This is all interpretation. YOU don't decide anything as right or wrong because your not qualified (nor is anyone else).
You also need to educate yourself on other religions before you start making "arguments", it is vocabulary incorrect to say "Torah+Bible" because the Torah is the first 5 book of the Bible you can't separate the two when using them both in the same context. And there are no (s), your talking about language translations. I can now say Qurans(s) because there are language translations of it as well.
The Baha'i are an Abrahamic religion with religious scripts newer than the Quran does this mean now that THEY are the only "true" religion. Once again your simply using BELIEF (yours) to claim proof for something, which goes back to acting holier than thou.
Then you wouldn't have found the need to preach if you didn't care or believed that religion is a personal issue. By boasting that only what "you" believe in is right and everything else is "degenerated" and "wrong" is called acting holier than thou and that emphasizes that without faith (that particular only;yours) then your doomed and I don't want any person telling me squat regardless of what their belief tells them.
"It's you who is trying to acquit something, not me"
It is you who is preaching saying that only YOUR beliefs are divine while everything else is wrong (this includes other Muslims of different interpretation). I have simply said that one's religion is no one's business, your free to argue that if you want.
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Even I have never heard anything like "Lazfiyah" or "Ibriyah". There is only one way of being a Muslim. Rest of them are just charlatanism.
That's normal because Christianity was created by Jewish Paul and has nothing to do with the religion of Jesus. I said Torah and Bible regarded as the so-called books of Moses and Jesus. There are hundreds of Bibles-Gospels(books of Christianity) such as Matta, Markos, Luka, Yuhanna and there are many Torahs(books of Jewishness) such as Tenach, Kanon, Mishna, Tosefta, Baraita, Ghemara, Talmud, Midras, Halaha, Agada, Kabbala, Zohar and books of rabbis. Translations have nothing to do with that.
Baha'i is not an Abrahamic religion. It was already mentioned in Kuran that Islam was the last religion and there wouldnt be any newer.
I didn't make any explanitions about other religions. I did about Jewishness, Christianity and Paganism as it was mentioned in Kuran.
As I've said a hundred and one times; THEY ARE NOT MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. THEY WERE CITED IN THE KURAN'S ITSELF!
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They are interpretations of Islam who all claim to be the "true" of following like what you do.
Paul is not a religious significant he is a historical figure because his letters are used to trace the politics and events of that time. Gospels are the primary source of Christianity; before Paul's time.
wrong there is one Bible. Gospels are accounts from Yeshuas students about his teachings and life. Those are not Torahs they are books of Jewish literature/history and books of jurisprudence. They use the Torah as the primary source of the Jewish legal system; but they are not Torahs themselves. The oldest Bible in the world are the dead sea scrolls and they are exactly the same as the Bible today.
Abrahamic religion by definition are monotheistic faiths that recognize a spiritual tradition identified with Abraham. Baha'i uphold the beliefs of all the Abrahamic faiths. There are lots of other newer religion that uphold the Abrahamic belief system as well. But does it really matter as long as they are good people?, interesting to keep in mind.
You're not qualified to give any "explanations" about any religion-- It seems that your not even aware of even the most basic things about these religions let alone determine them as a "right" or "wrong" faith. The Quran is a religious book as well as a book of interpretation, most people will interpret its context differently than others which is why you have different sects in Islam (as in every religion). Religion is BELIEF and interpretation is OPINION. Many Muslims will disagree with your prospective of interpretation bringing it back to OPINION and PERSONAL BELIEF.
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Interpretations are personal and they are not supposed to be facts.
" because the Torah is the first 5 book of the Bible " - " wrong there is one Bible " - ????
They are used as definition of Jewishness that makes them religious books. Torah was changed so much and Christianity has already nothing to do with the Jesus's book. All of these had already been mentioned in Kuran. They are your own opinions come from chauvinism. That's why most Christian and Jewish sciencemen are irreligious such as Mieke Bal: "The Bible (Hebrew Bible) of all books is the most dangerous one, the one that has been endowed with the power to kill."
An "Abrahamic" religion must have been sent by a prophet and "ONE" religious book. Otherwise everybody can create an "Abrahamic" religion.
I have already mentioned that. Just saying being muslim doesn't make one "right" as well as being christian or jewish doesn't make them totally "wrong". I'm criticizing bastardization of religions.
I don't care about others' beliefs as long as they are not destructive. Likewise, my opinions are none of anyone's business. WRONG" has a certain meaning and you CANNOT interpret it as "RIGHT". As I've said a hundred and two times; THEY ARE NOT MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. THEY WERE CITED IN THE KURAN'S ITSELF!
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A fact is something that can be physically seen and indisputable and proven with primary and many secondary sources; similar to a court procedure of evidence. Religion ultimately is BELEIF and because practically everything religious books say are differently interpreted by sects and scholars then it falls into OPINION. Therefore an argument based ENTIRELY on religious writings is PERSONAL BELEIF and belief in a PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION (yours).
They are books of JURISPRUDENCE and HISTORY; they cite Torah examples but they are not Holy books. Its similar to a nations constitution which many times cite laws and principals which originated from religious and cultural practices; does this mean that almost every Federal constitution on earth is a religious scripture? Although in Islam you have the Hadiths which play a much larger role than the Talmud etc.. in actual religion. The Sunnis use 6 collections and the Shia use 4 (believing the others are from unreliable sources) and they bring forth laws and practices that are not even mentioned in the Quran. The Talmud etc.. base their contents on actual Torah writings. But once again does it really mean anything, none of this for you or anyone proves or disproves anything.
You don't know any of this. And actual physical evidence mostly speaks against this theory especially since the oldest Bibles are exactly the same as the one's today. The Dead Sea scrolls alone extend from 150 BC to 70 AD even through the time of Yeshua and are the same as the Bible today. Also ancient established Jewish communities in other countries have their Torahs the same as the one's in all the other communities in the world. If it was changed you would have found differences but you don't. The only argument you have used are language translations.
"That's why most Christian and Jewish sciencemen are irreligious such as Mieke Bal"
Depends what point of view you are talking about; and you don't know all of them or their lives to make that assessment. In this case it makes no difference since the Orthodox Christian and Jewish beliefs emphasis DEEDS and not necessarily BELIEFS as the decision factor in the afterlife. For these religions even an Atheist can get ahead of a religious person if they have helped more people and carried out more good deeds. once again proves and disproves nothing.
First, have you actually read (front to end) the book so you can give an educated argument. This does not count random quotes from websites without checking context to see if its even about religion.
By universal definition the Baha'i clearly are an Abrahamic religion. Baha'u'llah is the prophet of the Baha'i faith and who says it has to be ONE book to be Abrahamic, YOU?.
"I'm criticizing bastardization of religions"
oh wait, you mean religions of which you know next to nothing about.
Religion ultimately is BELEIF and because practically everything religious books say are differently interpreted by sects and scholars then it falls into OPINION. Therefore an argument based ENTIRELY on religious writings is PERSONAL BELEIF and belief in a PARTICULAR INTERPRETATION (yours).
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You can clean the giblets of a meat with a knife and you can also kill someone with a knife. But you can only kill someone with a sword. There are some knives in Islam but what you are trying to acquit is full of swords.
JURISPRUDENCE and HISTORY are also RELIGIOUS matters. They are used as definition of Jewishness which makes them religious books. Hadith and Sunna are the sayings and doings of the Prophet Muhammed, which form a basis for much of Islamic law, and have nothing to do with man made up. For example, Muhammed said once: "My name is Muhammed in Kuran, Ahmed in Gospel, Ahyed in Torah". That's a hadith. But Muhammed's name is not mentioned in Christian and Jewish books because they were degenerated. Islam has only one certain and written source and it's Kur'an. Of course it does. It's a form of degeneration.
It seems you have been living for 2000 years and interfered in prophets personally...
79 - Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah", that they sell for a small gain therewith! Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby! [Bakara]
78 - There is a party of them who disort the Scripture with their tongues, so that you may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: "It is from Allah", when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly. [Al-i Imran]
It's obvious. Albert Einstein was Jewish and he said: "For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions". Even many Jews of Israel are irreligious and atheist as well as predominantly Christian countries. Those degenerations only encourage atheism.
Baha'i was collection of many religions...
Six Rules of The Faith: 1-) Faith in God 2-) Faith in Arcangels [Was Gabriel messenger of Baha'i?]
- Cebrail (Gabriel)
- Mikail (Michael)
- Israfil (Raphael)
- Azrail (Azrael)
3-) Faith in Books [Where is the Baha'i book?]
- Torah
- Gospel
- Psalms
- Suhuf (of Ibrahim - Abraham)
- Qur'an (Finally)
4-) Faith in Prophets [Baha'u'llah was none of them.]
- 25 Prophets
5-) Faith in Afterlife 6-) Faith in Destiny
...creating a religion in the name of the God wouldn't be that easy.
6 - And when Jesus son of Mary said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who will come after me, whose name is Ahmed (Muhammed)". Yet when be hath come unto them with clear proofs, they said: "This is mere magic". [Saff]
40 - Muhammed is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the end of the Prophets; and Allah is Aware of all things. [Ahzab]
No matter how you deny it, that's the truth.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jan 2, 2009 6:39 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jan 2, 2009 6:35 PM
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Once again, YOU mean YOUR religion and interpretation (opinion). YOU don't determine any of this. Unless you're claiming to be HOLIER THAN THOU so now you have to compete with the millions of people (in and out of Islam) that only YOU have the answers.
Judaism as a religion was already established with the Torah. The Talmud specifically is a collection of records of discussion which preserve ancient Jewish history, laws, and philosophy, its used as an academic source of study. Books that speak about jurisprudence are the laws of the land (don't claim to be religious but national) although these books specifically CITE the Torah for when talking about religion.
These collections are religious (for Muslims) although many laws are not from what the Quran says. Once again this is open to interpretation different sects recognize different ones as right and others as unreliable (Sunnis use 6 collections, Shia use 4, others use none at all; because of this complication). But ultimately does it really matter (Hadiths, Talmud etc..) as long as they are good people, its not for us to determine but interesting to keep in mind.
once again your not qualified to make that assessment. Again your running away and going back to BELEIF/personal opinion to attempt to prove an argument that your not even qualified to talk about let alone determine. This is also called BLIND FAITH.
It seems that YOU have appointed yourself as Gods ("Yahweh") personal exclusive translator and can determine the "truth" and details about other religions without even knowing about them.
Albert Einstein while I respect his beliefs is not qualified to determine any religion as right or wrong (nor is anyone else). In this case it makes no difference since the Orthodox Christian and Jewish beliefs emphasis DEEDS and not necessarily BELIEFS as the decision factor in the afterlife, hence... no missionaries/dawah. Islam and other wonderful religions are based mostly on BELIEFS and deeds secondary if at all (most interpretations). As in, "accept this deity". AND, there is no way to get into Heaven, without accepting THAT particular deity (therefor deeds "if any" only count AFTER you accept that deity). Judaism/Orthodoxy makes no demands on which deity. Deeds, not Beliefs. Judaism/Orthodoxy simply states you will get to lie in the bed you make. Whether you believe in God, or not. DEEDS, not beliefs. Hitler, I'm sorry to say, would have a BETTER CHANCE of getting to Heaven in almost any other religion, IF right before his death, he repents and accepts that religion. Not in Judaism/Orthodoxy.
Bahá'u'lláh is the interior prophet for the Baha'i who authored over 15,000 works/prayers/writings and is believed by them to be the final revelation (religiously speaking). The main book of the Baha'i faith is the Kitáb-i-Aqdas which emphasizes Bahá'í religious practices, laws of personal status, criminal law, ethical exhortations, social principles, miscellaneous laws and abrogations, and prophecies (similar like other Abrahamic books). The belief system is Abrahamic by universal definition and hence... believes in all the other Abrahamic faiths. There is also a theory that Bahá'u'lláh is decedent from the House of David which incidentally the Bible declares will come many religious leaders who will establish new religions and laws for other people (once again, its purely faith, but interesting). But it is by definition Abrahamic since its beliefs stem from a spiritual tradition identified with Abraham.
Who says so... YOU. Oh wait, You mean YOUR truth which YOU are not qualified to determine for everyone else. Are YOU the only person who decides what truth is? And simply citing YOUR RELIGION (belief/interpretation (opinion) as a fact makes your arguments lose credibility since you're not supporting them with secondary sources.
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I cited all the verses. There are no collections for Muslims. "Sunni" and "Shia" names are fallacious. There is only one Islam and only one book. As I've said: just saying being muslim doesn't make one "right" as well as being christian or jewish doesn't make them totally "wrong". I'm criticizing bastardization of religions.
It's blind faith when you don't make assessment.
As I've said a hundred and three times; THEY ARE NOT MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. THEY WERE CITED IN THE KURAN'S ITSELF!
Besides it's wrongness, Orthodoxy was created from Catholicism because of political purposes. Beliefs are followed by deeds. Those deeds you say have killed millions of people. Jewish belief includes individual's willpower against the God which makes it satanic. Hitler and his "Goy" German nation killed millions of so-called "Chosen People of The God". There must be something wrong for Jewish religion.
Those books and prophets were mentioned in the holy books. I've already proved them with verses. You may believe whatever you want. But Baha'i is not a religion like Islam or Christianty and Judaism before the degeneration.
I've written verses with their numbers. There are not multiple Kurans as there are hundreds of Gospels. There is only one certain holy book in Islam and that's plenty of sufficient. I have at least one source. Those sources, which you don't dare to cite, rather determine the wrongess of what you are trying to acquit.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jan 6, 2009 7:22 PM
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YOUR mind and YOUR logic follows YOUR interpretation--- everyone will have a difference in interpretation especially in religion.
Once again, YOUR not qualified to make that assessment since YOU did not know Moses personally. And there is no backing of your statement (archaeologically or religiously).
For the Haidths there are different collections by different scholars over a period of time. Although many collections are rejected by different Muslim sects beleiving some (or all) to be unreliable and wrong. The Sunni use 6 major Hadith collections while the Shia have rejected all of the Sunni collections and have adopted 4 collections of Hadiths from different scholars. Other Muslim sects have rejected all these collections and some don't use any Hadiths at all. This simply proves the point about INTERPRETATION. Once again, you mean religions which as you have shown to know next to nothing about and again not qualified to give an answer in the first place (as no one else).
exactly--- and when one presents an argument using only religious verses (YOUR belief) trying to pass it as a universal fact (just because it happens to be YOUR belief and YOUR interpretation) its a demonstration of blind faith.
Verses in religious books mean nothing in terms of argument from one party to another because once again what is religion (BELEIF) and whos belief (YOURS) as well as YOUR interpretation of those verses and books (which everyone will have one of their own) which brings it back to OPINION. So again, its simply YOUR belief and YOUR PERSONAL interpretation (opinion).
Actually Orthodoxy belief, practice, and tradition is MUCH MUCH older than Catholicism (is historically traced back to 33AD the same time religiously believed Yeshua ascended). But ultimately what does it matter since its THEIR business and THEIR personal relationship with God ("Yahweh") and no one can say squat. Once again your not qualified to make that assessment and not YOU nor anyone can say squat since again religion= one's personal belief, and interpretation (opinion) in this equation everyone is in the same boat.
beliefs can help make meaning and inspire people to carry out good deeds but belief is not universally required to do deeds. There are people with no beliefs who have carried out as many or more good deeds than most religious people, does this mean they should be denied anything in a afterlife (no one knows, but interesting to keep in mind).
Orthodoxy & Judaism are one of the only religions that place DEEDS higher than BELIEFS. As in it does not matter what religion you follow and everyone gets an equal chance to get into heaven and not just the people belonging to a particular deity. They are one of the least political religions and don't demand submission from anyone---- Orthodox and Jewish faiths don't try to convert people (contrary to what you find in the Middle East or medieval Western Europe) instead potential converts are DISCOURAGED and told that changing from their old faith means nothing and that it will be DEEDS not BELIEFS. In terms of afterlife as its described in most religions and interpreted (by most sects) Hitler would have had a BETTER CHANCE (religiously-statistically speaking) of getting into heaven in almost every other religion IF right before his death he converted to that religion.
Once again citing religious verses mean nothing in a two party discussion. Alright then dispute it accordingly with UNIVERSAL points and not YOUR religious beliefs. Baha'i have every similarity to the other Abrahamic religions and accepts all of them as true and their books, the Baha'i faith in description has the same belief and ideas as the others and it identifies with a spiritual tradition from Abraham. Its history and foundation is similar in description and beliefs don't go against the Abrahamic definition of religion.
Once again religious verses mean nothing in a two party discussion, because its BELEIF (personal opinion and interpretation). First of all there are no sources you have shown besides religious verses (YOUR BELEIF/PERSONAL INTERPRETATION/OPINION). I could post hundreds of verses from religious books to support an argument but what would that prove since the other religious books of the other parties will dispute that and thats that. No one can say squat.
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Alright. You had already drawn your conclusion about the belief. No need to repeat all the same. No matter how I was not convinced personally, I think you believe you will be able to convince the God. Keep up brainstorm...
163 - Ask them of the township that was by the sea, how they (Jews) did break the sabbath, how their big fish came unto them visibly upon their sabbath day and on a day when they did not keep sabbath came they not unto them. (They used to spread their fishnets by friday evening and gather the fish in sunday morning. They believed they could fool the God.) Thus did We try them for that they were evil-livers.
166 - So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: "Be ye apes despised and loathed!"
(Araf)
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