By Breffni O'Rourke
http://www.rferl.org/content/Turkish_Armenian_Intellectuals_Seek_New_Ways_To_Bring_Genocide_Issue_Into_Open/1360333.html

Some 200 Turkish academics, writers, and artists have issued over the Internet an apology for the massacre of ethnic Armenians in 1915, and they are inviting the Turkish public to join them in signing the petition.

In their apology, the signatories say their conscience will not allow them to deny what they call "the great catastrophe" that overtook Armenians in Turkey at that time, and that they share "the pain" of their "Armenian brothers and sisters, and apologize to them."

AP has reported that some 2,500 signatures were on the petition on December 15, the day the apology was launched on the Internet.

The petition itself avoids the inflammatory word "genocide," which has long been taboo in Turkey.

Some intellectuals imply that the petitioners lack moral courage by avoiding the term. But Gila Benmayor, a writer with Turkey's "Hurriyet" newspaper, says the petition is not meant to offend anyone, but is merely an expression of shared grief.

Gregory Stanton, the president of the International Association of Genocide Scholars and head of the Genocide Watch pressure group, says it is essential for the Turkish government to acknowledge the genocide as a way for both Yerevan and Ankara to move on from the past.

"One of the things we've discovered in studying genocide is that post-traumatic stress syndrome actually is inherited -- that is, it's passed on from one generation to the next," Stanton says. "So if you have this kind of trauma, it can actually affect future generations. And it's one of the reasons I'm convinced that the Pontic Greeks, for instance, and the Armenians from the Anatolia region of the Ottoman Empire are so concerned about having their genocides acknowledged, even though Turkey doesn't want to acknowledge it.

"And it's too bad, because really -- the current Turkish government didn't carry out that genocide," Stanton continues. "It would be very healthy for the Turkish government to acknowledge what happened in the past, just as the German government has acknowledged what the Nazis did."

Seen As Betrayal

The signatories are certainly not without courage. Despite the lapse of 90 years, the issue is still red hot. Turkish nationalists regard any attempt to brand Turks as genocidal as a betrayal of the country.

Only last year, Armenian journalist Hrant Dink was shot dead in Istanbul after repeated use of the word genocide to describe what had happened to the Armenians in 1915. His assassin was a teenage nationalist.

Meanwhile, in Yerevan, a group of 30 Armenian intellectuals have written an open letter to Turkish President Abdullah Gul, urging him to recognize the genocide. Referring to the almost century-old enmity between their two nations, the signatories say the historic memory of both nations is "deep and disturbing."

The chairman of the Union of Armenian Writers, Levon Ananian, says the fact that people on both sides of the closed Turkish-Armenian border are preoccupied with the same issue gives grounds for hope.

"The letter of Armenian intellectuals to Abdullah Gul and the initiative of Turkish intellectuals unequivocally prove that the wall between two countries -- the closed border -- can be demolished because we are starting to recognize each other," Ananian says. "When we recognize each other, then we have to try to understand each other. If we understand, then we should come to certain conclusions."

The December 9 open letter is meant to capitalize on the success of Gul's unprecedented visit to Yerevan in September, to attend a soccer match. That visit has led to a substantial thaw in relations, including talks between the two foreign ministers.

But until there is official Turkish recognition of the genocide, says the letter from Armenian intellectuals, there can be no real reconciliation between the two sides.

Apologise the the Greek people next?

hahahaha
200 'intellectuals''(they say intellectuel eachother ) say somethings

But 100,000 intellectuels against them !

%99 of Turks are protest them !

Turkish-armenian problem is not your ...
talk about rebellion in greece.

"""%99 of Turks are protest them !"""


Maybe so but you will be the minority decades from now, so this may change ?

Turkish population decreases while Kurdish is increased.



Basing the calculations, the population of Turkey in 2050 is expected to amount in the 88 millions 986 thousands individuals. Kurdish will be the majority because the rythm of increase of Kurdish populations is triple and quadruple from the other demographic teams of Turkey.


Thanks to Akritas;
http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/world-history-politics/9088-turkish-population-decreases-while-kurdish-increased.html



"""Turkish-armenian problem is not your ...
talk about rebellion in greece."""

True it isn't our problem, we haven't been discussing on network54 due to you already spamming the Greek riots for us, you may laugh at Greece as much as you like. Know this though, those who laughs first, laughs last. You remember that.

Correction:

"""Turkish-armenian problem is not your ... """

Meant to say. True the Armenian - Turksih ins't our problem...And neither is the Greek riots for you.

?? ''traffic accident report'' ?? so ?


only Turks died in accidents ???

What do you know about kurdish population ?
for example who are zazas?
11,4 million-12,6 million kurds+zazas in Turkey

Konda search: 11,4 million %15
http://www.aktuelbakis.com/news/822.html

National security concil minortiy report: 12,6 million kurds+zaza %16
http://www.turuncutime.com/news/129/ARTICLE/3793/2008-06-06.html

CIA fact: 14 million (estimated) https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html#People



if we look that population of Turkey in 1927

Turkey :13.648.270 total pupulation
1,180,000 ethnic kurd
150,000 ethnic zaza

%11 - %12 of total population



Kurds and zazas were %12 in 1927
now they are %15 in Turkey
and 2-3 million ethnic kurds are seriously Turkificed , someones say ''we are not kurd'' %50 of Kurds can not speak in kurdish (kurmanchi or zazaki)

kurdish language courses opened in Turkey 7-8 years ago
%90 of them closed , because number of student is not enough


RESULT:

if you talk about anything , please talk with sources and be logical.

I show you 1927 and 2008 cencus .if you wonder, chek it

in summary
Kurds+zazas %12 in 1927
Kurds+zazas %15-%16 now

Turks were 12 million in 1927 (%88)
Turks are 60 million now in Turkey (%84)


-Turkey was 13,5 million in 1927 now 72 million

YOU SAY TURKS WILL BE MINORTY
HOW ?
Kurds will be 60 million later 30 years ????


Actually population is big problem for greece

%10 of Greece population Muslim today , total %12-13 non greek
Greece will be %20 non-greek next 15 year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d-5r24xM6A

There is no need to change the subject, stay focused.

Those figures were originaly based by the Resmi Gazete, the official gazette of the Republic of Turkey and are thus accurate.

"""I show you 1927 and 2008 cencus .if you wonder, chek it

You show us figures from 1927 to 2008 ! When we are speaking of future projections to 2050

Turkeys population is in decline. Here is another one.

Turkey

Population

According to the last population census, the population of Turkey was 67.8 million in 2000 with an annual growth rate of 1.83 % for the period 1990-2000. The population reached a maximum growth rate of 2.8 % per year during the 1950s with a rapid decline appearing after 1970. The population growth rate will decrease slightly in the future according to population projections. The Turkish population was around 69.6 million in mid-2002, based on the national population estimations. The male population and female population was estimated at respectively 34.5 million and 35.1 million in mid-2002.

The age structure of the population is rather young. In 2002 the proportion of children (0-14) was 29.6 % and 5.5 % of the population was 65 years or older.

http://www.coe.int/t/e/social_cohesion/population/demographic_year_book/2003_edition/04%20country%20data/Member%20States/Turkey/Turkey%20General%20Page.asp

????

1927-2008 =81 years

Kurds were %12 , now kurds are %15
you say that kurds will be %50 later 40 years

1-Learn sociology

Kurds have lived in feodal systeam until 2000's
GAP(Southern Anatolia Project) has been started to change everything in the region

Firstly, young kurds don't want 6-7 childiren. They want high life standarts .

I guess you claim that kurds' birth rate will not change next 20-30
ha ?


2- Learn matematic and statistic
1,3 million kurds were living in 1927 , 1,7 million in 1935

1927-1935
form 1,3 to 1,7 million

+0,4 million in 8 years , %35 = Birth rate %4,3 per/year

1945-1950

From 1,75 to 2 million 0,25 million in 5 year ,%19=Birth rate %3,8 per/year


Now Kurdish Birth rate : %2.5
http://haber.vatanim.com.tr/haberdetay.asp?Newsid=182598&Categoryid=1

Turkey Birth rate avarage: %1.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population


life time in Turks :75-79
life time in kurds :60-65

infant death rate in Turks: %0,4
infant death rate in Turks: %0,8





You say that kurdish birth rate will rise next 40 years ???

I say no , Turkey will be maximum 89 million in 2050 and kurdish population wil be maximum %20

not only me , population experts ,too
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/10331245.asp

"But 100,000 intellectuels against them"

of course, what will happen to people who speak out in Turkey. Look at what happened to Hrant Dink.

Germany has admitted its wrongdoings, so should Turkey.

''Look at what happened to Hrant Dink''

Look at what happened to Turkish diplomats in 1980's
they murdered by ASALA terrorists and someones of them live in armenia now ,like a ''hero''...

%20 of Azerbijan terrirory has been under armenian occupation since 1993

armenias killed 1,000 civilians in Hocalý village, only in 24 hours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_iMpJLfYo


and you say ''what happened ''

go to hell !

Indeed thanks to Akritas...thanks for making us laugh. I wonder what you both were thinking about those indicators although you see "Trafik" in the title.

You and your lords are enjoying to annoy Turkish people but don't try in vain. It is the general prediction for Turkey, not for only Kurd or Turks. It had been expected that Turkey was going to reach 120 million by 2050 only a couple of years ago. Counting economic growth rate of Turkey, there will always be other people to balance the demographics of Turkey. Spain had no immigrants until 10 years ago unlike current Turkey.

You are complaining about spamming but you are the one who exactly spams here. Read the title first. No matter how you are trying to make quotations with clichés, it's rather you who should remember who laughed first since all along.

There are already hundreds who speak of the so-called Armenian genocide in Turkey. Hrant Dink was killed by certain powers so that likes of you say so.

Germany has committed a genocide. OTTOMAN EMPIRE's muslim citizens were terribly murdered by Armenians, as well as Greeks. There is nothing similar with the Jewish holocaust.

Labeling someone as "intellectual" because he or she agrees with your propagandas makes no sense. Just like most of the Nobel prizes. That's why fair and common sensical people know likes of Nikola Tesla very well.

Indeed thanks to Akritas...thanks for making us laugh. I wonder what you both were thinking about those indicators although you see "Trafik" in the title.

If your not prepared to accept reality then reality will deal with you in future, is ok just ignore the subject and the sources come from even reliable Turkish ones. You call it spam, I call it priorities because theyll be next so in reality I am just broadening the topic to a bigger picture facing Turkey in future. Every other persons took this from face value "being true" only you two in here, maybe your unprepared to accept it ?

There is a very, very large Kurdish minority living in Turkey and they too have been dealt with un-fairly like the Armenians, Turkish constitution doesnt recognise the Kurds.

Dude you have millions of Kurds and so many millions of Armenians as the major minority ethnic groups, so I pose a question how many Turks are actually in Turkey ???? Some experts put this to almost half of Turkeys population.

I thanked Akritas because it was a hard one to find as Turkish law 301 doesnt allow freedom of expression in Turkey.

Always remember, he who laughs first, cries at the end. There is no use spamming so many anti Greek topics in here and at the same time ignore your own problems. We on the other hand are discussing what is seen as tough times ahead for Greece;
http://illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=14224

If you want to discuss the Kurdish issue in Turkey, then you should open another title. This one has nothing to do with that. Otherwise it will be locked.


"If your not prepared to accept reality then reality will deal with you in future."

I think that's for you.


"I pose a question how many Turks are actually in Turkey ????"

It's difficult to give a certain answer to this. Because Turkey is not a country which makes racial discrimination like Greece. Everybody is equal before the law in Turkey and Turkish people doesn't view like, who are not one of them, as "animals" just like Greeks do. So there are hundred thousands of mix marriages between Turks, Kurds and Arabs. As I've said, everybody is equal before the law in Turkey and Turkish citizenship policy is not based on racial definition except for the Eastern Orthodox(extinct), Armenian and Jewish people. However, even Armenians call themselves "Turkish-Armenian" and Jews already call themselves "Turkish" insistently. Even Bosnians refused Serbo-Croatian broadcasting in TRT so that they are not labelled as minority.

I think the question should be how many people would like to give up their Turkish identity for their true origins. We have the money, we have the power, we have the intelligence and we have a great history. Just go to the Northern Iraq, say "I am Turkish" and see how they welcome you as a God.


"Always remember, he who laughs first, cries at the end."

I've never heard that. But it's always good to laugh. However, I will tell you a much more expressive one: History always repeats itself...

Well, maybe if you were to properly debate or acknowledge some of the wrongs committed instead of murdering journalists and people who disagree with you. Instead of pretending that if your Turkish you then can't commit ANY wrongs and that anything said against nationalist propaganda is a lie. Stop living in a fantasy world from the 19th century.

"and you say ''what happened ''

Ya and im sure that YOU know the truth and that everyone else in the world is wrong. I can see now why Thrace Muslims stay in Greece, imagine if they had to go back to that mentality.

"go to hell"

I'm sorry to inform you that,that is not YOUR decision to make, and is simply a cowardly response in any debate.

"Eastern Orthodox(extinct)"

How this happened





"We have the money, we have the power, we have the intelligence and we have a great history. Just go to the Northern Iraq, say "I am Turkish" and see how they welcome you as a God"

wow, did someone say bizarro show. Ya I wonder why the entire world has not already accepted Turkey itself as the Messiah. How moronic.

I've explained how that happened a hundred times before. Read the previous posts.

Have you ever heard something like "conceptual metaphor"? First, read about some literature and rhetoric. They import from Turkey everything they've got such as goods, products, electricity, water, investments, doctors...and so on. Hundred thousands of Iraqi Kurds had fled to Turkey escaping Saddam's massacre as well.

If tiny Armenia was truly the first Christian state on earth why in the world doesn't your state owned church teach love and forgiveness? Even in Christ's time there was the separation of church and state. Armenia must separate its church and state if the true message of Christ is to be taught there. This is why your church has engaged in terrorism from the mid-1800s up to and including this very day. The Armenian Church is nothing more than a front and an extension of your state run terror machine.

Christian Scholar Samuel Weems, http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/patriarchs.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCYz3IigNE0&mode=related&search=

http://khojaly-massacre.blogspot.com/ (Note: Photos are awful.)

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/ana4.html