The stories that follow are truly heart wrenching. I challenge you to read them and not cry. If you succeed, give yourself a medal for being a heartless beast.
This is a testimony to the fact that evil beliefs make humans commit unthinkable atrocities. Anwar Shaikh, the renowned anti Islamist admits that during the Partition, when he was young, he was so filled with hate that he went out with a machete and killed two innocent Sikhs, a father and a son and a Hindu. He did not know any of his victims. He killed them because they were the first non-Muslims he saw in the streets. The memory of his crime haunts him to this day. But the mind of a believer is like a mind on drugs. He is completely dehumanized.
This Bangladeshi Hindu was caught in the street. He was brought to the mosque and was beaten to death. His pleads for mercy had no effect on the stone-hard hearts of the Muslim Satan worshippers. They chanted, "kill the kafir, kill the kafir" and shouted Allah u Akbar while Vimal Patak met his agonizing death.
Humans are not born evil, they become evil through indoctrination.
By: Ahmed Awny Shalakamy
I grew up in Giza, Egypt. My father was a building contractor and was involved in Islamic activities. He was the chairman of one of the local Islamic associations and was responsible for making the call for prayer. He also gave Islamic lessons and at times spoke at the mosque on Friday.
My father hated Christians. He taught me that they are infidels who contradict themselves by saying that Jesus Christ is God while their distorted book has verses that prove he is a prophet. It was all part of the rhetoric we got used to hearing from booming mosque loudspeakers, and from the playing of radio and audio cassettes in the streets. In such an atmosphere, a Muslim child in Egypt is breast-fed hatred along with his mothers milk.
My fathers association was active in many fields. It ran a dormitory for girls, a workshop, a clinic, a nursery, a madrassah to study Quran and a section for preaching Islam. The main interest of his association was to proselytize Islam by any means.
During the rule of the late president Anwar El Sadat, the Grand Imam of El Azhar Mohamed Abdel Halim Mahmoud was involved in plotting together with Sadats vice president Mr. Hussein el Shafei. Sheikh Keshk was also involved in this planning together with Mohamed Osman Ismail, Assiuts previous governor, and Mohamed Abdel Mohsen Saleh. Both Ismail and Saleh were the founding fathers of the various Islamic proselytizing associations that sprouted up, and of which my father was involved.
The goal of these groups was to convert Egypt into an Islamic state over a period of 50 years. Members of the royal Saudi family, who were related to the Wahabi movement and oil princes from the Gulf, financed this plan. Money was spent lavishly to seduce Christian women and girls any way possible. The cost in the seventies and early eighties was about five thousand Egyptian pounds for the entrapment of each girl. The money was split so that the Muslim man who lured the Christian woman into conversion received half and the members of the police and collaborating associations would receive the other half.
The work of the proselytizing associations in Egypt continues to take place and the payments for deceptive conversions are now higher. Today the average payment for an ordinary girl is ten thousand Egyptian pounds and payments can be as high as two hundred thousand Egyptian pounds if the girl is from a well-known Christian family, or is the daughter of a university professor, a deputy minister, or related to someone from the clergy.
Like my father, I too was involved with a proselytizing association. After we succeeded in converting a Christian woman, we would antagonize the Christians by parading the converted girl through the streets. We played loud music and waved flags while shouting Allahu Akbar to declare the victory of Islam. We would also chant slogans to shame the Christians. No Christian would stand in the way of these parades, which were safeguarded by the police.
This was a normal practice until 1985 when such parades were banned. Nevertheless, we continued in our campaign to convert Christian women anyway. We were focused on converting Christian girls and women because we believed this was a greater form of humiliation for Christians. In the East, a mans honor is in his daughter, sister or wife and so disgracing any of them is the ultimate humiliation for him.
We used all kinds of tricks to get Christian women. We primarily sought to appeal to their emotions and impulses. We would also get these women involved in moral scandals and used that to coerce them to do whatever we wanted. This is what I did, while I was involved with a proselytizing association. Besides receiving payment for this work, I was convinced I received an additional reward because each time I caused a Christian woman to convert to Islam I would be awarded with an acre of land in heaven.
The following accounts are of the women that I lured into Islam through deceptive methods.
N.M.A.
NMA was originally from Cairo and went to college in the city where my family lived. I was in my first year of college at the time, and this was my first case of proselytizing.
She was very pretty. She had a few Muslim girl friends who told me that she was an easy catch. They arranged for me to meet her and I practiced pretending that I was madly in love, staring at her with desire and faking a quivering voice.
When NMA and I first started talking, I asked her some questions about the Christian faith. I realized I had to change my tactics if I was going to trap her. I started to convince her that I loved her and I worked on her until she fell for me. Her girl friends were aware of what was happening and helped me by talking to her about my love for her. I told her that we could marry and keep our different faiths, as Islam allows Muslims to marry the people of the book because they believe in God. I had my way with her and she became pregnant.
I secretly went to church with her a few times and I even bought Christian books, icons and the fellowship bread to convince her that I was an admirer of Christianity. I told her that I would have gladly converted to Christianity, but could not do it because I would be killed. I then told her that I loved her and could not live without her and if she converted to Islam, she would not be killed, as she was carrying our baby--the fruit of our love.
She was scared and did not know what to do. At that time, I asked her not to sever her relation with the church, to act as she normally would and as a camouflage go to church on Thursday for confession, on Friday for communion and again on Sunday for Mass. She followed my instructions and one day, as per my instructions, she arrived with her suitcase and gold jewelry, and we spent the night at my home in Gameat El Dewal El Arabia Street. On Saturday morning, she had an appointment with the person in charge at El Azhar. I arranged for her escape to the city where she attended college and where I lived until she finished her studies. I then had her name changed to Fatima El Zahra Mohamed Ali El Mahdi.
The efforts of her family and of other Christians to take her back were in vain. I made sure she was the one who adamantly refused to go back after my colleagues and I brainwashed her. My efforts were successful as she became completely convinced that she was now worshipping the true God of Islam.
After five weeks of achieving this victory for Islam and receiving my financial reward, I decided that I did not want to keep this faithless whore as my wife. She was cheap to me and was merely an object for sensual pleasure. How could I have a son with her who has in him the blood of those Christian infidels? I reasoned. I ordered her to have an abortion and I used my legitimate right to beat her. I also obliged her to work for her food. I told her she had to serve her Muslim masters who put a roof over her head and she had to be grateful that I married her and saved her from her shame.
I started to think about repeating the same game again with other women, so that I could serve my life, my religion and my after-life. I believed by doing this I would serve my religion by making the infidels embrace Islam; I would serve my life by getting financial rewards; and I would serve my after life by having many acres written in my name in heaven. I would also have a house cleaner for free. She would work for her food and when I wanted to use her for pleasure, she would be my odalisque.
I enjoyed hurting, beating and humiliating Fatima (NMA). I was positive she did not truly convert to Islam and that she has only surrendering to her female instincts. All this made me more inclined to take revenge on her. Fatima stayed with me for three years, seven months and twelve days until one Sunday in 1998 when I converted to Christianity. I was an atheist and avoided everyone, before becoming a Christian. But as I continued my research, I believe Jesus Christ showed himself to me.
I told my wife about my change of faith. She did not believe me at first. During those three years seven months and twelve days that Fatima stayed with me, I made eight girls convert to Islam. After I became a Christian, I sought to restore each of the nine women who converted because of me as well as those whom my father had converted. I am now praying for the rest of them and I keep getting good news about the coming back of one girl after the other.
When I met DBA, she was studying in a college located one and a half hours from her home. She came from a wealthy family. Her father and mother were physicians and her brothers were physicians in the Egyptian armed forces. Though she was a churchgoer, she was not religious. DBA was outgoing in her friendships with both Muslims and Christians. Yet despite her congeniality, we did not find it easy to get to her and had to resort to foul play. As Muslim men, we believed we were in a perpetual war with the filthy infidels, and therefore it was OK to trick them.
One day I received a visit from a young Muslim man who told me he wanted to marry DBA and asked me to help him convince her to convert to Islam. After much planning, I found out that this girls best friend was a religious Muslim. But she still considered the Christian girl her sister and I was disturbed by this. So I paid a visit to the Muslim girl and talked to her about the corrupt beliefs of Christianity and reminded her of what Allah says in the Quran (Jews and Christians wont accept you until you follow their religion) and also (Ye believers do not take Jews and Christians as friends and those who befriend them are from them, as Allah does not show the right path to the unjust). I told her that jihad against them is the duty of every Muslim and she should contribute to the victory of Islam. The Muslim girl was convinced that I was right and asked what was required of her. I told her not to show hatred toward her Christian friend, but to treat her as usual and even try to strengthen their friendship and follow all of my instructions.
I then went to a Muslim pharmacist who is a member of our association and asked him for a drug to induce hallucinations. I told him why I needed the drug. He told me he wanted to contribute to the victory of Islam and therefore he agreed to provide it. I then gave the drug to the Muslim girl and told her to dissolve two tablets in a glass of milk and give it to DBA to drink, and then call us as soon as she noticed any changes in the girl.
The Muslim girl called us as soon as DBA started to hallucinate and lose control in her apartment. When my friend and I arrived, we had a camera and a video recorder. We started joking with DBA and she was responding, not realizing what we were doing until my friend managed to strip her of her clothes and took her to the bedroom.
I recorded everything on video and took pictures for about three hours. When DBA came around, she realized what had happened and started screaming and crying. She insulted us, Islam and the prophet of Islam, and tried to tear up the Quran, which was with her girlfriend. I showed her the video tape and the photos and threatened to make copies and distribute them to her family, as well as to other Christian families. I reminded her that she would be humiliated by the scandal. She cried and fell to the ground kissing our shoes pleading with us not to do this, but we insisted that she had to do whatever we told her to do, as she knew her brothers and relatives might even kill her if they were to see that video.
She gave in. Her tears and desperation made me ecstatic. Over the next few weeks, she accompanied us to the association where she was brainwashed by the sheikhs. She could not argue with anything they said. She was miserable and never stopped crying.
We taught her what to say before it was time for her to go the police department. She followed our instructions when she was interviewed by the police. And when a police officer asked her why she wanted to convert to Islam she said that the Prophet Mohamed came to her in a dream and greeted her with the Islamic greeting calling her Aisha. Jesus was also in the dream, greeted her with the Islamic greeting and denounced all Christians saying there is no God but Allah. She said that Jesus told her that he is Allahs slave and prophet and Mohamed is Allahs prophet. Then, she said, Jesus kissed Mohameds head and asked her to repeat after him Allahs words from the Quran (those who believe in any other religion but Islam, Allah will not accept it from them in the end, and they will be losers).
She not only said this in front of the police officers, but also to her family members and the priests who came to visit her. Her reactions during these visits, which were called counseling sessions, were staged by us and agreed on by the police before the meeting. It was all a fraud and though she was visited by different priests, she could only tell them what we had coached her to say.
After all the legal procedures were completed, we got her new ID and new Islamic name: Aisha Abdalla Elmahdy. We had achieved our plan and the Muslim man, Yasser, a Mujahid, got the girl he desired along with his financial reward, which was quite hefty because she was from a prominent Christian family. I received 25% of his share, plus my share of the amount I paid to the collaborating persons involved.
Aishas family was dishonored and humiliated as expected. As a result, her mother sold her pharmacy and her father sold his clinic. They moved to a place where they could disappear away in the crowd in order to flee the scandal.
So Aisha married Yasser and lived as an outcast, because she was despised by her in-laws. She was married for two months when Yasser said he had enough of her and did not want to keep her anymore. He divorced her and threw her out into the street.
Since she was our sister in Islam and cannot be homeless, I took her to the association where she lived and worked as a maid, cleaning the clinic for her food and board. She stayed there for three months until she was legally allowed to re-marry. The groom to be was a Muslim who knew her story. He was a coolie and was already married with six children. During the day, he labored in the maintenance workshops of the governorate administration. Aisha did not want to marry him and begged us not to allow her to go through with it. We ignored her, and she was forced to marry a man she did not like.
She lived in misery. She worked as a maid to clean homes and sold vegetables in order to feed her husband and his children. It was impossible to imagine that she was once a girl from a wealthy family of physicians and a college student. Her life was ruined. Her second husband divorced her after five months. Since she had been married twice she did not re-marry and because many had found out about the video tapes and photos taken of her when she was drugged, she was considered unclean. She became homeless and had to spend the night in emergency camps where she lived in sub-human conditions. As she hit bottom she cried: God have mercy on me. God showed mercy and answered her prayer.
During the time she was homeless, I became a Christian was looking for the girls I tricked into converting to Islam. I found out what had become of her and went to visit her with my wife who had returned to the church. My wife and I offered to take care of her in our home. We sought to inform her parents about her situation, so I sent a relative of my wife together with a priest who talked to them. They all cried at the news and expressed their desire to see her. The family reunion was arranged in one of the churches in Cairo. It was an impressive reunion. Though I expected the parents to chastise her, they didnt and were happy to see her.
As her family hugged and kissed her, I was so touched by the love I saw that I wondered why we were hurting Christians the way we did. I have always despised the smiles they had on their faces when we criticized, hurt or humiliated them. I used to tell myself that they were smiles of malice because they were a minority and could not stand up to us Muslims. Now I know the reason for their smiles. It is their love, forgiveness and tolerance toward their enemies. It is the Christian characteristic of making peace.
After DBA met her family, she went back home with them and they welcomed her with love and kindness as the scripture says in the story about the prodigal son. Her mother bought her beautiful clothes and her father bought her jewelry. They celebrated her coming home and repeated the words of the Bible (Our daughter was dead and now is alive and was lost and is now found).
A request was submitted to the Clerical Council to endorse her return to Christianity, which was approved. A Christian lawyer volunteered to petition the court to give her back her Christian name and identity card. The court ruled in her favor. She now lives in France where she serves in the Coptic Church with her husband and daughter.
When I met DBA, she was studying in a college located one and a half hours from her home. She came from a wealthy family. Her father and mother were physicians and her brothers were physicians in the Egyptian armed forces. Though she was a churchgoer, she was not religious. DBA was outgoing in her friendships with both Muslims and Christians. Yet despite her congeniality, we did not find it easy to get to her and had to resort to foul play. As Muslim men, we believed we were in a perpetual war with the filthy infidels, and therefore it was OK to trick them.
One day I received a visit from a young Muslim man who told me he wanted to marry DBA and asked me to help him convince her to convert to Islam. After much planning, I found out that this girls best friend was a religious Muslim. But she still considered the Christian girl her sister and I was disturbed by this. So I paid a visit to the Muslim girl and talked to her about the corrupt beliefs of Christianity and reminded her of what Allah says in the Quran (Jews and Christians wont accept you until you follow their religion) and also (Ye believers do not take Jews and Christians as friends and those who befriend them are from them, as Allah does not show the right path to the unjust). I told her that jihad against them is the duty of every Muslim and she should contribute to the victory of Islam. The Muslim girl was convinced that I was right and asked what was required of her. I told her not to show hatred toward her Christian friend, but to treat her as usual and even try to strengthen their friendship and follow all of my instructions.
I then went to a Muslim pharmacist who is a member of our association and asked him for a drug to induce hallucinations. I told him why I needed the drug. He told me he wanted to contribute to the victory of Islam and therefore he agreed to provide it. I then gave the drug to the Muslim girl and told her to dissolve two tablets in a glass of milk and give it to DBA to drink, and then call us as soon as she noticed any changes in the girl.
The Muslim girl called us as soon as DBA started to hallucinate and lose control in her apartment. When my friend and I arrived, we had a camera and a video recorder. We started joking with DBA and she was responding, not realizing what we were doing until my friend managed to strip her of her clothes and took her to the bedroom.
I recorded everything on video and took pictures for about three hours. When DBA came around, she realized what had happened and started screaming and crying. She insulted us, Islam and the prophet of Islam, and tried to tear up the Quran, which was with her girlfriend. I showed her the video tape and the photos and threatened to make copies and distribute them to her family, as well as to other Christian families. I reminded her that she would be humiliated by the scandal. She cried and fell to the ground kissing our shoes pleading with us not to do this, but we insisted that she had to do whatever we told her to do, as she knew her brothers and relatives might even kill her if they were to see that video.
She gave in. Her tears and desperation made me ecstatic. Over the next few weeks, she accompanied us to the association where she was brainwashed by the sheikhs. She could not argue with anything they said. She was miserable and never stopped crying.
We taught her what to say before it was time for her to go the police department. She followed our instructions when she was interviewed by the police. And when a police officer asked her why she wanted to convert to Islam she said that the Prophet Mohamed came to her in a dream and greeted her with the Islamic greeting calling her Aisha. Jesus was also in the dream, greeted her with the Islamic greeting and denounced all Christians saying there is no God but Allah. She said that Jesus told her that he is Allahs slave and prophet and Mohamed is Allahs prophet. Then, she said, Jesus kissed Mohameds head and asked her to repeat after him Allahs words from the Quran (those who believe in any other religion but Islam, Allah will not accept it from them in the end, and they will be losers).
She not only said this in front of the police officers, but also to her family members and the priests who came to visit her. Her reactions during these visits, which were called counseling sessions, were staged by us and agreed on by the police before the meeting. It was all a fraud and though she was visited by different priests, she could only tell them what we had coached her to say.
After all the legal procedures were completed, we got her new ID and new Islamic name: Aisha Abdalla Elmahdy. We had achieved our plan and the Muslim man, Yasser, a Mujahid, got the girl he desired along with his financial reward, which was quite hefty because she was from a prominent Christian family. I received 25% of his share, plus my share of the amount I paid to the collaborating persons involved.
Aishas family was dishonored and humiliated as expected. As a result, her mother sold her pharmacy and her father sold his clinic. They moved to a place where they could disappear away in the crowd in order to flee the scandal.
So Aisha married Yasser and lived as an outcast, because she was despised by her in-laws. She was married for two months when Yasser said he had enough of her and did not want to keep her anymore. He divorced her and threw her out into the street.
Since she was our sister in Islam and cannot be homeless, I took her to the association where she lived and worked as a maid, cleaning the clinic for her food and board. She stayed there for three months until she was legally allowed to re-marry. The groom to be was a Muslim who knew her story. He was a coolie and was already married with six children. During the day, he labored in the maintenance workshops of the governorate administration. Aisha did not want to marry him and begged us not to allow her to go through with it. We ignored her, and she was forced to marry a man she did not like.
She lived in misery. She worked as a maid to clean homes and sold vegetables in order to feed her husband and his children. It was impossible to imagine that she was once a girl from a wealthy family of physicians and a college student. Her life was ruined. Her second husband divorced her after five months. Since she had been married twice she did not re-marry and because many had found out about the video tapes and photos taken of her when she was drugged, she was considered unclean. She became homeless and had to spend the night in emergency camps where she lived in sub-human conditions. As she hit bottom she cried: God have mercy on me. God showed mercy and answered her prayer.
During the time she was homeless, I became a Christian was looking for the girls I tricked into converting to Islam. I found out what had become of her and went to visit her with my wife who had returned to the church. My wife and I offered to take care of her in our home. We sought to inform her parents about her situation, so I sent a relative of my wife together with a priest who talked to them. They all cried at the news and expressed their desire to see her. The family reunion was arranged in one of the churches in Cairo. It was an impressive reunion. Though I expected the parents to chastise her, they didnt and were happy to see her.
As her family hugged and kissed her, I was so touched by the love I saw that I wondered why we were hurting Christians the way we did. I have always despised the smiles they had on their faces when we criticized, hurt or humiliated them. I used to tell myself that they were smiles of malice because they were a minority and could not stand up to us Muslims. Now I know the reason for their smiles. It is their love, forgiveness and tolerance toward their enemies. It is the Christian characteristic of making peace.
After DBA met her family, she went back home with them and they welcomed her with love and kindness as the scripture says in the story about the prodigal son. Her mother bought her beautiful clothes and her father bought her jewelry. They celebrated her coming home and repeated the words of the Bible (Our daughter was dead and now is alive and was lost and is now found).
A request was submitted to the Clerical Council to endorse her return to Christianity, which was approved. A Christian lawyer volunteered to petition the court to give her back her Christian name and identity card. The court ruled in her favor. She now lives in France where she serves in the Coptic Church with her husband and daughter.
BGM lived in the countryside and attended college. She suffered from the recurrent problem of ruthless parents. She was very delicate, small, frail and very naïve. She used to commute daily to and from her college in a microbus and usually sat at the front seat next to the driver. I saw her and was mesmerized by her delicate, baby-like features. I inquired about her from the driver whose name was Ali Al Sawy and he informed me that she was a college student and always rode with him to college. Ali was a secular Muslim, but I managed to turn him into a religious one. I talked to him about our jihad against Christians convinced him to take part in this jihad against infidels. I used a plan, which was very common then and is still widely used. I bought some Christian booklets and pictures and told Ali to pretend that he was a Christian. Every time the girl rode with him, he would give her a booklet or a picture as she got off his bus.
This helped the girl to become acquainted with Ali, who told her that his name was Simone. They became friends. Ali waited for her daily and drove her back to the village. He would take her wherever she wanted to go. Then they started going out together for walks in the public park. Ali played Christian audio tapes when BGM was alone with him in the car. As their friendship grew, BGM started to pour out her heart to him about the harshness of her father.
Ali and BGM continued to meet like this for seven months, until she was ready for the next step. Then he asked her to run away to one of the monasteries where they could then get married and she said yes. I asked him to drive her home at a time when nobody was there so that she could pack all her things she was so naïve that she even took her Bible with her and we went to the house of a Muslim family where she received our surprise. We told her that it was impossible for her to go back home because by now her family would have discovered that she eloped and if her father saw her he would kill her. We told her that there was no way out of this and that she had to wear a hijab and take on the Muslim name Zeinab.
She cried and begged us not to force her to do this, but we did not listen to her pleas and told her if she wished to go back home she could, but we would not be responsible if her father killed her.
She was frightened. She cried, screamed, and appeared to be in shock. It was not a problem for us, as the drugs we used on girls such situations, would always pacify them.
BGM said she did not want to go back home, as she was scared she would be killed. We kept her in an apartment for about a month. At that time, she sat with Sheikh Ibrahim, Mrs. Hana and Mrs. Lamia. For three hours a day, they lectured her on Islam and told her negative things about Christianity.
When it came time to take her to the Security Division Headquarters, she was mentally prepared to deny her Christian faith and refuse seeing her father. She met with a priest who talked to her for one and a half hours, but all she would say was May God lead you to the right path as he did me. She kept repeating this until the priest told her that he was willing to listen to her if she could convince him about Islam. But she would not say anything more.
BGM married Ali El Sawy and lived with him in misery as he was a sadistic pervert who beat her used her private parts to smother his cigarettes. She was depressed and in tears, which provoked him to torture her more. He had already received his financial reward for her conversion, and I got my share.
After 53 days of marriage, he divorced her. She lost her career, her dignity and her family. She went to work in a Muslim dormitory for girls where she cleaned and cooked in exchange for a place to live. She was there for four months, when she got married and divorced again. She had been homeless for over a year. She eventually returned to Christianity and is now married and lives in Sydney.
Why I don't Emulate Islam's Prophet Anymore
First of all, is it necessary to say something about me? I dont like to remember my bitter past when I was a prestigious Muslim.
Like any typical ignorant Muslim, I was very much Islam-oriented. ... A man who couldnt tolerate any brickbat on his beliefs and learned to be suspicious and prejudicial on critics and criticism. . I suspended all allegations brought by critics with much contempt and disdain. I too believed Islams prophet is a man of exalted morals, I am taught to live like him, to love him., to walk on this earth like he did. All those were acceptable until I learned to doubt and began to look upon things differently.
I learned history from an Islamic perspective, but after the completion, a simple thought provoked me to see, how could this same story be if I rewrite it in a lost pagans perspective?
I think it was the beginning of my enlightenment. I refused to play the part of a victim any more and a lot of courage was needed for the purpose.
I dont exactly remember what wrote doubt in my mind. May be it is Lord Buddha and his teachings or a glance at Jesus and his sufferings.
I learned look unto my own inner self through Buddha. Then quite shockingly I realized my beloved prophet is a misfit. He failed to show me anything other than the dark side of human nature.
Those who trumpet the greatness of Islams prophet have a responsibility to prove it by referring him and his life. Is there any lesson of mercy in Islams prophet that can be compared with what Jesus showed to his executioners even in excruciating pain of crucifixion? Where is the moral of renunciation in him when we have Lord Buddha as a role model of ultimate renunciation?
Muslims are quite eloquent on familial values and keen to find fault with others especially west. I challenge any Muslim to show me any virtue in their prophets familial life that can be blindly followed!
I left this prophet and his teachings, but this is not a praiseworthy act, when in fact I should be ashamed of being a part of this cult at least for quite some period of my life in the past. A repentance and apology is due. So let me try my best. I will be an active member of this forum and contribute what I can to end this stupidity.
I dedicate this testimony to the whole of suffering humanity; I dedicate this to those innocent kids massacred in Beslan. Shame on you Muslim, you still taste their blood sweet.!
Divyan
Islam Was My Nightmare
By Jutta
I was born to a very pious Catholic family in Berlin . Nothing presaged that I would become a Muslim one day. On the contrary, everyone expected me to be a faithful Catholic throughout my life and pass down my faith to my children.
However, I had a very rebellious character and, like many adolescents, abominated everything my parents liked. I set a goal for myself to find a liberating religion different from that of my parents. I was convinced that nothing could be worse than Christianity with its oppressive teachings on women.
The religious atmosphere in my family was getting on my nerves. I was having heated arguments with my parents all the time because of my disagreement with some Christian teachings. They pressed me to be a better Christian; I rebelled and did the opposite.
Soon after my graduation from university, I met a young Muslim man of Turkish origin. We fell in love and soon got married. He was not a religious fanatic - he was absolutely secular, although he did observe some Islamic obligations (he fasted and prayed). He didnt ask me to convert to his religion but he made it clear that he would like his children to be Muslims. I myself took great interest in his religion and customs. I expressed willingness to learn more about Islam.
He brought me some deceptive (as I know understand) books about the glory of Islam and benefits of being a Muslim woman. I read the books and grasped the beauty of this religion.
I was taught by my Christian parents that a woman had to submit to her husband and thus find God. My Muslim husband seemed to be so close to God without any help from priests and I was told that I didnt have to get married and submit to my husband to find peace of mind and faith in God. I looked at my husband and blindly believed all those lies because he was such a nice man who was the living example of a decent Muslim man. When I prayed behind him, I felt I was getting closer to God and Heaven.
Looking back on those days, I see that I was just a stupid kid who drummed into herself that Islam was an ideal religion for all humankind. Perhaps I simply wanted to vex my pious parents whom I considered to be repressive monsters.
After I had converted, I was given some other books that were not as wonderful as previous ones. I learnt that I could be beaten by my husband, if he wasnt satisfied with me. But in my addled mind I tried to find justifications for that commandment. Moreover, I was sure that my husband was incapable of hitting a woman.
I gave birth to our children who were sent to a kind of a kindergarten for Muslim children. I kept on working and didnt want to give up my job. My husband supported me and told me that Islam actually encouraged women to work and have their own lives. I cant understand how I could believe such downright lies.
A few years later he decided to perform Hajj. I was very excited and proud of him because, in fact, I was much more religious than my secular husband.
When he came back, I couldnt recognize him. His behaviour changed dramatically and he was not longer secular. I didnt like wearing a veil and usually put it on only when I went to mosque. Now my husband told me that I had to wear a veil outside all the time. When I opened my mouth to object to such horrible behaviour of his, he hit me on the face and told me to shut up. I was forced to quit my job and become a housewife.
He brought some books from Saudi Arabia which reformed him and saved him from perishing in Hell. I read those books on Islam, real Islam that my husband started to practice. Suddenly the scales fell from my eyes and I realized that I had never been a Muslim. But it was too late, as we were moving to Turkey . He feared that Germany would have an adverse effect on our childrens upbringing.
My life in rural Turkey , with his parents, was a nightmare. I was no longer a liberated Muslimah, a wife of a liberal Muslim; I was a real Muslimah, just a commodity of my husband.
I used to enjoy praying but now I started to detest prayers led by my husband. I no longer felt close to God. When I finished reading a real, not spurious, biography of the prophet, I felt sick. I had been lied to all the time. How could I believe that Muhammad was the prophet of God?
I wondered what had happened to my husband. He told he had had conversations with fellow Muslims from moral countries like Saudi Arabia and they had opened his eyes. I put the blame for my husbands change of behaviour on them but then it occurred to me that he had always been a Muslim, although a secular one. What could I possibly expect from him? I had read dozens articles about women married to Muslims and their hardship. I had been warned by my best friends that I was playing with fire. But my unreasonable hatred for Christianity, love for husband and blatant lies deceived me and made me immune to reason and logic.
After such a rude awakening to the horrors of Islam and its treatment of women, I decided to review the Quran. My first feeling was anger at my blindness to reality. It is apparent from the Quran that men are given total control over women. The Holy book abounds with discriminatory teachings on women, which are quite obvious from the context of the book. Only a blind woman in love like me could overlook them.
When my husband realized that I was no longer a docile wife and a pious Muslimah, he became a real savage. He showed his true colours and exclaimed that German whores could never become modest women.
Even his ultra-conservative parents and friends could not understand what had happened to my husband. Nobody expected him to change so greatly. Occasionally he dropped some vague hints from which followed that he had spoken to sheikhs, introduced to him by his friends, who were well-informed about Islam. They explained to him that the majority of Muslims didnt follow the whole Islam; they just chose peaceful and beautiful parts but forgot about violent ones. You have to love your wife but remember to hit her from time to time or she will forget that she is just a woman made for your enjoyment. You ought to treat the infidels well, if it benefits you, but dont forget that your main obligation is to overthrow their government and impose the Shariah.
I couldn't believe that my humble hubby was now a faithful Wahabbi. I hoped I was asleep but I was not.
I managed to run away and get to the German embassy. My conversation with a female worker was another eye-opener she asked me, When will you learn to listen to the news, stupid hens? She meant that all women knew that dating a Muslim, let alone marring to him was a dangerous affair, yet we didnt pay attention to all the warnings. Why do we keep on dating them?
Luckily, my children are with me, thanks to good lawyers. I am working and enjoying my life. But it could have been different. In that case, I could only blame myself for my stupidity.
The above story proves the point that the so called moderate Muslims can become extremists overnight. As long as one believes that Muhammad was a prophet of God, he is at risk of becoming a terrorist in a heartbeat.
It is a mistake to separate Muslims into "moderate" Muslims and extremist Muslims. They are all Muslims. All of them belong to the terrorist faith of Islam. Their only difference is in the degree of their devotion. At any time, a moderate Muslim can increase his faith and become a monster.
Islam must be denounced and banned.
Ali Sina
Good-bye to Islam!
Never a Dhimmi
After reading so may testimonials about those who have left Islam on this and other websites I decided to describe for others how I became interested in Islam but eventually became disillusioned and left. First I should let you know I am an American and was raised in a secular family. I was raised on scientific rationalism and never had any formal religious background.
When I was a teen I attended a catholic high school (only for one year) and was required to read the New Testament. It was at this point that I became fascinated with religion and spirituality. For me, coming from an agnostic background where religion was generally ignored, the New Testament was an inspiration and deeply moving. I never bought into the simplistic aspects of Christianity, the creation of the world in seven days, Adam and Eve, etc. but was drawn by the message of love, ethics and a sense of purpose for this worldly existence. Interest in Christianity and religion in general led me to investigate other religions and spiritual paths: Buddhism, Hinduism, Zen, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Native American spirituality, and ancient Greek and Roman philosophy. I became a voracious reader of ancient religious and spiritual scriptures of various different cultures. Eventually I came across Islamic mysticism (Sufism). I read all the books I could find on the topic and was particularly impressed with the works of Idries Shah
Sufism seemed to me to be the most sensible and relevant form of spirituality for modern society. It appealed to my disdain of organized religion and meaningless rituals, it stressed one should be in the world but not of the world and the ultimate goal is not a location or reward, i.e. Heaven but a reality: spiritual knowledge and enlightenment. Sufism did not appear to be at odds with modern science and did not demand that one reject sensible theories such as evolution and physics. Sufism in fact, was presented as a science itself (tasawwuf). Sufism was described as the inner meaning of Islam, the interior kernel, which was protected by an exterior shell, composed of the formal laws and doctrine of Islam. Islamic poetry, particularly Persian, was shown to be a vehicle in which Sufi mystics hid spiritual knowledge in the worldly praise of love and pleasure. The Quran was alleged to contain seven layers of understanding, each one more sublime, which would become apparent as one progressed in spiritual understanding. For me Sufism legitimized Islam.
The first time I read the Quran in translation I was disappointed, as it seemed to lack the inspirational message of other religious scriptures. I contented myself with the fact that I would probably need to read it in the original Arabic to obtain its spiritual message. I undertook the daunting task of learning classical Arabic. I studied Arabic for four years and Ill admit I never became fluent in speaking the language but I was able to read it (with some difficulty and the constant need of a dictionary!).
Shortly before the first Gulf war I was offered a job in Saudi Arabia. I had recently graduated from college and felt this would be an excellent opportunity to really learn Arabic fluently. I was told it would be best if I became a Muslim to accept the position since the family that owned the company lived in Mecca and if I didnt become a Muslim I would have to find a place to live in Jeddah. To me it seemed a mere formality so I said I would become Muslim. Fortunately, as it would turn out, I was unable to take this job because of the war.
Though I didnt get the chance to work in Saudi Arabia, I became increasingly interested in traditional Islam and decided to investigate a local mosque close to where I lived. I went there several months to study the Quran in Arabic and it was here that I first came across aspects of Islam, which really troubled me. The members of the Mosque seemed genuinely delighted that an American would be interested in Islam and were very welcoming but they were less than enthusiastic about American culture. My interest was to learn more about the Quran but instead I ended up listening to sermons, which seemed to be primarily concerned with politics and condemnation of perceived Western values. Though most of the Moslems at this mosque were not Arabs they seemed to be obsessed with the Israeli-Palestinian issue and yet I never heard them mention anything about injustices done to Moslems by other fellow Muslims such as the massacre of the Kurds in Iraq, civil war in Afghanistan or the slaughter of thousands of Algerians by extremists. It was also there that I first heard such alarming ideas as the consequences for apostasy and various other enlightened aspects of the sharia. These ideas seemed rather cult like. I found no spirituality in the company of traditional Moslems. Eventually I decided to leave and never returned.
I still did not make the connection that this was what Islam was really all about because I rationalized that the inner message of Islam was about spiritual knowledge and these people were obsessed with the outward forms of religion, not its true message. I began to read the Hadith and the biography of the Prophet (Sirat-un-Nabi) to gain a better understanding of Islams message and to weigh it against the values I understood from the perspective of Sufism. It was at this point that I began to have my doubts about the spirituality of the Prophet Muhammad. The commandments of the Quran and Hadith seemed to advocate a brutal, inflexible ethics lacking in any redeeming values. The biography of Muhammad was filled with examples of violence and questionable deeds for one who was supposedly guided by a God of love and peace. The biography put into context many of the Suras of the Quran and left the impression of a revelation whose purpose was to explain and justify Muhammads worldly deeds. The requirements for everyday conduct seemed to be more of a burden than a guide for a meaningful life. What is the true spiritual meaning of wiping the top of your feet before you pray? Or the prohibition of wearing silk! Will your prayer from the heart not be accepted because you didnt perform a proper Wudu? Why is Islam against adoption? Is it a religious duty to hate and kill Jews and unbelievers? And always, the primitive threat of Hell! Even the reward for a righteous life seemed to lack any spiritual grace and refinement. Essentially an eternal cosmic orgy!
I didnt reject Islam outright; rather, I slowly drifted away from it as the realities became more and more unsavory. Increasingly I distanced myself from the rigid views and doctrines espoused by Islam and tried to associate with the more benign views of the religion, which I felt was its true meaning. I clung to ideas such as the true jihad in Islam is against ones lower nature, and there is no compunction in religion, which allowed me to rationalize the notion that most Muslims in the world were simply not following the real Islam. In fact it was I who was not following it!
I still believed that there were decent moderate Moslems although I was always surprised that they were nowhere to be found or heard from after any of the increasingly common Islamic atrocities were committed around the world. Although most Moslems in the US stress that the actions of a few extremists do not define the religion, I could see that almost the entire Islamic world took great delight in the WTC tragedy. If there was ever a time for the real Islam to show itself and denounce the perversion of its true teachings it was after this event. Instead Muslims seemed to rationalize that it was justified because of all the terrible things America is doing to the Muslim world (probably much worse than what the Mongols did!) or they concocted fanciful conspiracy theories about how the Israelis carried out the attacks to discredit Islam. I was stunned and appalled at the primitive stupidity and barbarity of the Islamic worlds reaction to this outrage. Only Iranian people seemed to show any sympathy to the victims and Im sure it was mainly those who are fed up with Islam. I found myself making excuses to others that this was not what Islam really teaches but it began to sound less and less convincing. I became aware that my life was based on contradictions. On the one hand my sense of right and wrong were based on my upbringing and the society that had raised me, yet the Islamic faith that I had embraced appeared to be the antithesis of these values. After 9/11 I realized that I just couldnt make excuses for the outrages being committed in the name of Islam. The religion itself is fatally flawed. How could one have any affiliation whatsoever with such a doctrine?
For years now the books were gathering dust in the garage, as I have lost all outward affiliation and interest in Islam. I guess I just became a bad Muslim. The final break for me was the sight of slaughtered school children in the recent tragedy in Beslan, Russia carried out by Islamic freedom fighters. I grabbed my Yusuf Ali Quran, along with several other books about Fiqh, prayer, Muhammads life, etc., took them out back and shot them full of holes. I then tossed the tattered remnants into the barbeque and watched them burn to ashes. I felt a great sense of freedom and a final purge from this barbaric creed as the pages and words twisted and disappeared in the flames!
There may be a spiritual reality in Sufism but if there is it was not derived from Islam or Muhammad. Islam teaches that the good that comes to you is from God and the bad is from yourself (I wonder what the children of Beslan did to earn their punishment?) I think it would be more appropriate to say that any good in the Islamic world comes from somewhere else and the bad is all from Islam!
I would conclude by saying that Im very fortunate to live in a country, which allows people the freedom to believe or not believe in any religion they choose. I have the utmost respect for those who live in the tyranny of Islamic countries and decide to think for themselves and live by their conscience, often with the consequences of great personal hardships and danger to their lives. To all such people everywhere I look forward to the day when you can live your lives in freedom and peace.
Best Regards...
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The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. Thomas Jefferson
I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ... The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ. Thomas Jefferson
Even though I am not of the Christian background but of Romaniotes Judaism
(Greek of the Jewish faith)so I shouldn't really care but since it's funny to watch those individuals attempting to act Holier Than Thou aka (spineless, cowards who can only build their egos by attacking other peoples belief system while claiming that ONLY THEY know the "truth").
Finious are you capable to providing your own research instead of scrambling to find quotes from other people and anti-Christian/anti-Jewish (other thread) websites. First, have you actually read (front to end) the scriptures of the religions in question so you can give an educated argument. I suggest you do your own research and provide your own arguments, your less likely to make errors that way.
These stories while I don't know how accurate are the details do in a sense show the potential consequences when people feel that they have the right to force their religions upon others which is many cases leads to violence, the irony is that they all in the end violate the basic tenants of their own religions (the majority's view)while trying to promote it.
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You are either Greek or Jewish. Both is impossible theorically (which means that you are Jewish).
If you have some certain proofs, you won't need to build a belief system for anything. You should make a self-criticism if you can't even stand for clarifications through realistic arguments.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on May 13, 2009 11:33 AM
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Really?? how do you know that, who told you that? Judaism is a system of BELIEFS AND PRACTICES not an ethnic group (hint, the Biblical Jews were called the Hebrew people or Haribu but not all Jews today are descendants of those same people-conversions & intermarriages occurred), A person of Hellenic decent (aka. DNA) is a an ethnicity.Hellenic peoples are MUCH older than Christianity and there were Greeks of the Jewish faith long before Greeks of the Christian faith. But in the end its not YOUR call to make, nor is it your business.
Alright then, if you believe that religious conversions should be forced on people through violence then your welcome to dispute my stance accordingly. Or is that because I mentioned that one should study things before attempting to present an argument without checking up facts--- because in any formal debate these sort of things can make or break ones credibility. Sorry, just trying to help.
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Jews are an ethno-religious group according to degenerated Judaism religion. Jewish men are banned from their community if by any chance they marry with a non-Jewish women (except for ones who are rich enough to make them do what they say) and their children are not allowed to be a Jew. Strange for a "Goy", isn't it? It's always father's chromosome who defines the root and that's why children get the last name of the father. But someone whose mother is Jewish, is allowed to be a Jew. It's because a Jew used to recognize another Jew from his/her last name. That's why those who hold a Jewish surname must be of the pure Jewish race. As for those who don't hold a Jewish surname, they are already not fully Jewish and labelled as "fake-Jews" who are going to spend their lives to serve for "true-Jews". For example, a Turk is never allowed to be Jewish in Turkey. Likewise in Iran and many other countries. But it's allowed in United States because it's an allied country and Americans prefer to vote for pro-Israeli actions and support Jewish lobbies instead of migrating to Israel and mix with Jews. On the other hand, hundreds of Jews adopt Islam in Turkey every year, no matter how with mostly "politic and business-friendly" feelings.
Yevanics are an extinct ethnic group and all the Jews in both Turkey and Greece are Sephardi. But it's possible if you consider your great great great grand FATHER's "Askenazi" surname. To sum up, you are either a server fake-Jew or an original-Jew who is trying to get them accepted to the society...and I don't think Greeks love Jews so much since 1 million Greeks were annihilated by Jews in Kitos War.
What are mentioned here are just facts, neither a forcing, nor a violence. What you are trying to defend compulsory, doesn't have an admissible base and that's why you feel in need to oppose fiercely to the facts. If you are trying to help, you could give an example from the issue which you believe to know that renders valid your help.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on May 13, 2009 4:00 PM
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Actually if you were to study in context it's a notion of community unity through the religion and the culture that comes from one who practices the religion--- Muslims have a similar concept called Ummah and there are many Muslims who reject an ethnic identity and choose to be identified by the religion only, many Christians do the same thing. Muslim women cannot marry a non-Muslim man in the same context, but Judaism does not force people to follow anything. Meanwhile there have been so called "honor killings" within some Muslim communities against women who have done so (not a religious point but interesting to note). There are Arab-Jews, Indian-Jews, Ethiopian-Jews, Greek-Jews etc.. people from many nationalities and backgrounds. wow, how to respond to such a pile of conspiracy theory garbage--- may I recommend that you start reading the paper once in a while, and stop relying perhaps on extremist websites to get your information about the world.
Oh, and just to note-- The cornerstone of Judaism is simply GOOD DEEDS aka... the belief system and practices cannot be enforced because its simply NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. This means that everyone on earth is equal whether you are Jewish or not Jewish and it's only your deeds that determine your afterlife not your beliefs... there is no one that can force anyone to convert into the religion, practice it, or force them out... Although last I heard Jews in Turkey recently are leaving in droves to escape religious discriminations.
Yevanic is a Ancient Greek-Hebrew dialect which also just happens to be called Yawan after the EASTERN-GREEKS in Ionia (Biblically believed to be the decedents of Javan who was the fourth son of Noah's son Japheth). Romaniotes are a very small but still notable community in Greece, and have noticeable different customs from the Sephardi and the Ashkenazi. But in the end WHAT DOES IT MATTER.
"to sum up....."
SORRY. YOU CAN'T MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION EITHER WAY.
A FEW SUGGESTIONS, IF YOU DON'T MIND.
1.STAY OUT OF ANYONE ELSE'S FAMILY MATTERS. IT IS HIGHLY INSULTING FOR YOU TO SUGGEST ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER THE PEOPLE OR THE CULTURES/RELIGIONS IN QUESTION.
2.STAY OUT OF ANYONE ELSE'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, IT IS HIGHLY INSULTING.
3. WHY DOES IT CONCERN YOU SO MUCH.
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True, a Muslim cannot marry with a non-Muslim according to the religion (no matter how most people do not care about this rule anymore in Turkey). But both Islam and Christianity are only religions for all people, not an ethnicity like Judaism. It does force people but many Jews are atheists and they don't follow any rules consequently. Did it? Have you ever watched "Zorba the Greek" film? Those custom homicides are committed by Kurds in the East. Of course you can't respond when you don't have any answers to the certain truth.
So those are the names of Jew-criticism? "Extremism, chauvinism, anti-semitism"...we have come to the same point again as usual. Even religious festivals of Jews are greeted officially in Turkey. No Jew in Turkey emigrates to Israel individually because life-standards are the same (and even better) and they live far better in Turkey than their Israeli counterparts. Romaniotes no longer exist and even they didn't live in Salonica. Yes, I don't mind. But you wrote something to be fixed.
Because Islam and Christianity are Proselytism religions meaning that they seek to convert other people into the religion... more precisely because Islam and Christianity are based on compulsion in BELIEF... both religions view that no one can get into heaven unless they follow only their belief system and that everyone else is doomed. Judaism is based on DEEDS and fate is determined by actions not by background or beliefs. Therefor Judaism does not need to Proselytism or force anyone to follow it. Once again,Judaism is a religion. Different backgrounds have various identities, many keep a Jewish identity over an ethnic one while others keep them balanced. The Persian Jews have a strong Persian identity balanced with a religious identity. Its the same with Romaniotes, and others.
no, it is both unwilling and unable to force people, no excommunication, no one can say squat. Sure there are atheist, secular, and religious Jews (Same as in all communities) but again the cornerstone of Judaism is based on deeds. Even an atheist can get into heaven ahead of religious person if they have done more good deeds. Zorba the Greek is a novel by Nikos Kazantzakis, yes its dramatic but what fictions aren't? So, violence that is only written about in Greece actually happens in Turkey?
So through your perspective one can view Greet Wilders film Fitna and believe that it represent the "true Islam" and it can just be accepted as fact without needing to check text context. Nobody should stand for religious intolerance endorsed by individuals and websites, one should notice the difference between scholarly works and fiction created from mostly fabrications, and out of context/mis-translated single quotes. After the 1955 progom, and attacks on synagogues, Jews by large numbers are leaving. Yevanic is not spoken anymore as a first language but while very small Romaniotes are still present,they were mostly established in Ioannina but some moved over time to Thessaloniki, and Athens.
Again not surprising you miss the point entirely, your neither qualified nor informed to make any assessments. and you can't use your religious beliefs as a holier than thou weapon to attack other people and religions which your not qualified to talk about in the first place for obvious reasons.
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Buddism is a not a proselytist religion but it's quite widespread. India has an Hindu character but Islam is spreading. Judaism is the oldest Abrahamic religion but it's limited with only Jews. Compulsion in belief is caused by people, thus many Jews in Israel are attacked by Orthodox-Jews because they don't celebrate Shabbat. Moreover, many Jews' noses and ears were cut according to Torah before they were killed by Rabbis because they adopted Islam in Ottoman period.
That's your own point of view...
160. " Wherefore for the iniquity of those who are Jews did We disallow to them the good things which had been made lawful for them and for their hindering many (people) from Allah's way. "
161. " And their taking usury though indeed they were forbidden it and their devouring the property of people falsely, and We have prepared for the unbelievers from among them a painful chastisement. "
162. " But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to. You and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward. "
(Nisa)
Of course Moses's Judaism was for everyone but it was degenerated by Rabbis with it's current form and disallowed other people to convert and marry with other races. The same degeneration was tried in Islam as well but it was limited by only Druze people. They are called Persian Jews because they speak Persian. Jews in Turkey also call themselves Turkish Jews.
Is it you who decide who is going to go to the heaven? That's such a contrast with what you've repeatedly said. Torah is full of hatred towards "non-Jews" and I think your deeds are based on those statements.
I mean satirizing of the widow woman in "Zorba the Greek" on behalf of honour killing. I've explained the event happened 54 years ago over a hundred times. Jews in Greece are Sephardi. Most of them were annihilated by Germans in WW2.
It's rather other religions' signs which aims to get the lands between two rivers and annihilate the people who live there.
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Buddhism begun as a reform movement of Hinduism during a time of great religious ferment in India. It attracted many Hindus who were discouraged with the present Hindu teachings. Also there were Buddhist missionaries during the time of the great silk road trading and during the Indo-Greek Kingdom. Hinduism is a cultural characteristic which is why its limited to mostly India and their are many different views on it and how its practiced. Sure just like how Islam is practiced by the Muslims Judaism is practiced by the Jews. In Israel most shops and restaurants are open on Shabbat even in religious neighborhoods, those people are less than 1% of the Orthodox community and follow political agendas, they are boycotted by the Orthodox and other Jews.
again, you can't use your religious beliefs as a holier than thou weapon in an attempt to oppress other religions. Its the same old "My belief tells me this, therefor everyone else is wrong and only what I think is the truth". I guess that's the motivation behind such extremist websites which it seems you've subscribed to... and people who simply have their own agendas.
Again, may I suggest that you STUDY the religion yourself fully to gain an understanding of it instead of searching extremist websites. Conversion is allowed in Judaism although 1. its not promoted since Judaism is based on deeds and does not subscribe to the idea of mandatory belief from everyone to go to heaven 2. conversion is a complex process since before conversion one has to study the religion, and one has to be serious about wanting to convert, its alot of work. 3. there is no incentive by converting to Judaism since according to its own teachings, beliefs will not make one more or less likely to go to heaven regardless of whether they are Jewish or not Jewish. Persian Jews have a very strong Persian and Iranian identity, many even outside of Iran follow Nowruz instead of Rosh Hashanah. Again it varies on the culture.
nope, I'm talking about the different points of views about afterlife. Of the Abrahamic religions Judaism stands out the most in this area since it is not belief centric, one cannot just follow the belief system and expect to get into heaven ahead of a Christian, Muslim, Atheist or anyone else without doing good works.
No, Rabbis don't have that authority, In Hebrew Rabbi simply means teacher. Rabbis (and everyone) cannot even touch the Torah, one can only hold it by the wooden sticks holding the scroll together and have to point at the words with a silver pointer or by the tassels sown on the prayer shawl. Even when the Torah in the Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians and the Jews exiled they couldn't restore it even though the Rabbis had it memorized because it was believed that the Torah can only be brought back through a prophet, which later happened and restored it. A Torah in scroll form can't be a dot different from any Torah or else its discarded. and today during a Torah copying process if someone copies a word or dot wrong he has to start over again and copying a Torah by hand can take years.
no, there are Romaniotes Synagogues in Thessloniki, and Ioannina along side of Sephardi even many Sephardi can trace their roots to Romaniotes who were integrated through marriages. They're 1500 Jews in Thessaloniki and 6000 in Greece, only a very small fraction are Romaniotes, although against all odds what's left of Romaniotes still has somewhat preserved itself. And how would you know about it anyway since I assume your not from Greece nor have came into contact with a Greek-Jew besides myself. Again its a dramatic fiction and even still lots of strange practices occurred ages ago, a while back one could not be Armenian in Turkey and live.
On that final note, once again I suggest you start reading the paper and not websites preaching religious intolerance.
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No, Islam demands a belief in God and requires that one recognizes that Muhammad was the last prophet, if either of these are not believed in you go to hell. As well deeds are secondary and count only AFTER one already follows the belief system. Muslims believe that anyone who follows the belief system is automatically granted a place in heaven and if they were sinful then they are only punished temporarily. Everyone else regardless of deeds is doomed. Judaism rejects that notion, anyone regardless if they are Jewish or not Jewish has an equal chance to get into heaven, and simply converting to Judaism will not mean squat. One way to show this is the fact that Non-Jews can worship at the HaKotel HaMa'aravi in Jerusalem, but Non-Muslims can't worship in or even enter Mecca, many Muslims countries mind you oppress Non-Muslim worship.
Best source is simply the same source you try to use but using it FULLY. Not by taking Jewish texts and the Torah out of context and giving the wrong translations. Understanding the Torah is not as simple as taking a verse and misquoting it, one has to read the entire Torah and understand the full context, proper meaning, and background. Besides such people just seem to have their own extremist agendas, like those individuals currently trying to take over Pakistan.
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Yes, but it is not you who can decide who is going to go to heaven or hell. Islam also says there are some good Jews and Christians who shall go to heaven as a result of their good deeds.
Which Muslim are you speaking of? Aren't they Christian priests who granted a place in heaven as a result of bloody crusades? Jews also believe that they are the superior race and heaven is only allocated for them. According to Jewish belief, gentiles are lower than even animals, Jews can deal with the God, all gentiles deserve to die...and so on. Such a pervert belief could no longer be the religion of the God and that's why Christianity was sent. But that also didn't work and finally Islam was sent to a non-Jewish nation because Jews had degenerated all the religions of the God.
It's something related with the Saudi government. Even they bury randomly who die at the Kabaa.
I have never seen even a single happy Jew through my life. Poor Jews want to be rich and rich Jews want to be happy. But there is no way for them. I also reccomend you to pray a Muslim prayer (there are specific prayers and ways) because it really works(I've tried everything in my life). Thus Islam is the final decision of the God. Otherwise hatred of Judaism will break you up(if you are really so).
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nope, but I'm simply reviewing the different point of views about afterlife. The bulk of Abrahamic religions claim that afterlife is achievable only through their belief system, in Islam heaven is a guarantee for any believer and if they are sinful then the punishment is only temporary. Everyone else (The Kaffir) are doomed. Its frequently stated that Islam is the ONLY accepted faith, everyone else regardless of deeds goes to hell. Judaism teaches that everyone has an equal chance regardless if one is Jewish or Not-Jewish. So while Judaism includes everyone it is also the most difficult of Abrahamic religions to go to heaven considering that actions count for everything while beliefs count for nothing. Which is also why Judaism focuses more in the present and is about the actions we do NOW, and belief centered religions keep their main focus is the afterlife.
Again, Judaism is a RELIGION not a RACE, and how people identify with it varies on the culture. Regarding "superior" not at all, in fact Jews believe that the Hebrew people received the Torah was because they were among the weakest people in the world. Your not qualified to determine those things considering you have yet to study and learn about the religion prior to criticizing it, and might I add highly insulting. Its not just Saudi Arabia, look at Yemen where one of the oldest Jewish communities on earth is near extinction due to religious intolerance. In Egypt Coptic Christians 10-15% of the population are frequently harassed and abused. Countries who hold the death penalty for anyone who leaves the religion, and won't allow women to work or drive. Which way? you mean YOUR way and YOUR beliefs. Again, not for you to decide anything about what is the "truth" and what is not (everyone has their own) nor to declare any religion as anything for the same reason. So believe and practice what you will,but you can't use your beliefs as a holier than thou weapon. On the contrary it seems that its the hatred of other people and other religions in places such as those websites thats breaking up the world.
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You had better read the quotation I wrote above. Islam also says there are some good Jews and Christians who shall go to heaven as a result of their good deeds. According to one of the hadithes, even a prostitute who gave water to a thirsty dog in her shoe was forgiven.
Is that why Jews killed hundred thousands of ancient Greeks? Even Turks didn't interfere Greeks under their rule who were licking Saint George sculptures. It's not difficult to believe in the God having been a good and true person. Does it because bad Jews are the majority? Everything is relative for people. You may view yourself "good" when you help two poors in Israel while you are making fictitious exports. Everybody knows already what the meaning of God is for Jews:
$$$$$$ $$$$$$
Judaism even commands to kill non-Jews, let alone allow them. Yemen is the backwardest country of the Arabia, one of the places where bad people use the God to spread their own willpower on the earth. Egyptian-Christians are quite contented just like Iranian-Jews who don't leave there in spite of financial offerings. But somewhere on the earth, people are killed while they are praying by some "true(!)" religious countries such as Israel.
It's not me but rather you who thinks to make decisions instead of the God. I've just quoted God's words.
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It says that ONLY Islam will be accepted in the afterlife, and the non-believers (Kaffir) will be punished... what you are posting applies as a religious conflict, and what about the good atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and others don't they deserve equal treatment?
Judaism has a 2500 rooted history in Greece the 2100 year old Delos Synagogue is one of the oldest Synagogues in the world. Turks meanwhile ransacked and destroyed Greek-Orthodox Churches and then made them into mosques, not to mention the future genocides of Greeks and others. Alright now, you may want to STUDY and learn about Orthodox Christianity (In addition Judaism and other religions) so you would know that Orthodox Christians don't use sculptures nor do they lick, I think the word you were looking for is Icon but I guess you were just looking for the most demeaning wordings to falsely characterize others, same goes with Jews and generally non-Muslims. Not necessarily there are lots of good atheists and people who have no faith and have done more for mankind than most religious people.
Well if money is a religion then I think its something that the whole world follows more devoutly than anything else, It overpowers Christianity, Islam, and everything else in terms of desirer's and for those who seek it (pretty much the entire world). But regarding your rampages and attempts to dehumanize other people through false statements and accusations,the only response for such people is "I hear that they are doing wonderful things in anti-extremism rehabilitation programs these days, you should consider enrolling".
Have you yet to STUDY Judaism before attempting to criticize it? 1. For Jews the Torah commands that one cannot mistreat anyone regardless if they are Jewish or not-Jewish. 2. Judaism teaches that ALL human beings are related spiritually and are equal under God; which is why Judaism teaches that the path to heaven for everyone is deeds and not beliefs. 3. Non-Jews living in Jewish territories were granted special rights and could even worship at the Temple Mount (The Holiest place for Jews) according to their own belief system.
It seems that everyone follows the religion wrong and that only you know the "proper" way of the religion (everyone seems to claim this; and this exposes the conflict within every religion). Its the same situation in Turkey; tens of thousands of Jews have left and hundreds still leave annually, not to mention the murders of people who converted to other religions. This same intolerance exists in North Africa, and the Middle East who have seen record numbers of emigration of their Christian, Jewish, Bahia, and other groups.
"It's not me but rather you who thinks to make decisions instead of the God"
You mean because I don't follow YOUR beliefs, are you the only one who decides what "truth" is?
"I've just quoted God's words"
and you don't know any of this, you don't have an answer and neither do I. Religious scriptures, their accuracy, and source is simply FAITH, there is nothing wrong with that, but it does not give you the right to act holier than thou.
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Muslim means "believer of Islam" and Islam means "goodness and accuracy". It's not a classified label. Mind you that none of the Abrahamic religions were sent to South Asia or Far East. I've already said that Jews had killed Ancient Greeks. Even Hagia Irene Eastern Orthodox church's existence was allowed although it had remianed in the borders of the Topkapi Palace garden while you still can't even imagine ten percent of such a civilization level in the 21th century Greek capital. You may as well mention to get the answer of the falsified genocides and others.
Certainity of the words which I used don't make so much sense at this point...
Counting percentages, there are more good religious people who have done more for mankind than most atheist people. As I've said, Muslim means "believer of Islam" and Islam means "goodness and accuracy".
Is that why Islam has been spreading widely and so fast in poor countries? It's not me who pressed the name of the God on a USD with a Star of David.
Here we go again...
"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."
Sepher ikkarim III c 25
"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."
Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5
"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."
Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b
"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."
Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772
"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."
Talmud Sanhedrin 74b
Jerusalem is holy for both Muslims and Christians as well and Israel had already occupied Jerusalem and violated it's "internationally administered area" status in 1948, yet it's not as powerfull as to ban Muslims or Christians.
Tens of thousands of Jews have left but still Turkey hosts one of the largest Jewish communities in the world. They don't leave here completely although they were imported. Guess why! Moreover many of them have been adopting Islam since the Ottoman Era.
You had better give an example of the murders you are speaking of.
My belief was cited in the holy books, your belief is your own made-up.
I think you should read your reply and what I wrote again:
"I've just quoted God's words"
RE: "and you don't know any of this, you don't have an answer and neither do I."
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jun 3, 2009 5:31 PM
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Islam comes from the Arabic word Aslama, which means "to accept, surrender or submit." Thus, Islam means acceptance of and submission to God. As such Judaism comes from the Hebrew word Yehudah meaning one who worships or "praises" God. The only difference here remains the concept of afterlife, Judaism is a religion which focuses primarily on actions while Islam is primarily focused on belief. One cannot be a Muslim unless they believe not only in God but also that Muhammad is the last prophet, and that is the most essential part in Islam, no one can get into heaven unless they say and believe in the Shahadah. Deeds meanwhile count only AFTER one follows the belief system so even if you are a sinful person but follow the belief system then you are still in the end guaranteed a place in heaven, and punishment for any sin would be temporary. So in a nut shell, even the most vile and murderous Nazis who directly and indirectly led to the deaths of 60 million people, IF right before their deaths they truly believed and converted to Islam can get ahead of a non-Muslim who has led a good life, because ones sins for the most part are forgiven once accepting Islam. They can perhaps expect a temporary punishment meanwhile the non-Muslims regardless of good deeds is doomed for all eternity.
So what if the Abrahamic religions did not go towards the south-east, are their good deeds not as valid as someone else's, there are Hindus, Buddhists, and other individuals who have done more than many people of Abrahamic background. Kitos was a Jewish revolt against the Roman Empire and how is that relevant now. Does it actually function as a Church? or is it another confiscated place of worship during the social purges of non-Turks. In Greece the state provides to all religious groups this is why Greece allows for Quranic and cleric schools to function while Turkey wouldn't even allow for one for Greeks while clerical schools for Muslims still function. Again Icon, and kissing is a sign of respect its quite different from licking for obvious reason, I suggest you STUDY things before attempting to lecture about it.
Really? so there are religious and atheist scientists and doctors who both work to save lives, but just the sake of being religious does not make the one doctor automatically a better person than the other. The Taliban use religious beliefs for everything, does this mean that they are better than a atheist who has done good deeds and has helped people.
In terms of conversions Christianity has the upper hand in the world, particularly in Africa, and East Asia. Right now it is believed that China hosts 130 million Christians 10%!!!!! of China, up from only a handful 30 years ago. But again, the expansion of religious BELIEFS has no relevance in this discussion as Judaism simply does not compete for souls.
Ok, for the sake of argument if you want to play the "quote verse" game (copy and pasted from RadioIslam) I'll indulge you.
Sepher ikkarim III c 25?
What you pasted is a misquotation. It talks about that when Non-Jews live in a Jewish country and commit crimes against the rights of other people, such a person, who does not respect other's rights, places himself apart from human community and therefore can expect to be treated according to his own rules. The Ancient Jewish courts were allowed to pass a capital punishment sentence for crimes such as murder (but required numerous flawless witness accounts, unilateral agreement from all the judges and and can only pass a capital punishment sentence once every 70 years or else all the judges are considered as "too bloody" and replaced), for Jews and non-Jews. Non-Jews were granted special rights but when anyone (Jewish or not-Jewish) commits murder or other crimes against the rights of others the court system has the right to impose a punishment on them including capital punishment for murder.
Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5?
What you pasted is a total forgery.
This is the FULL quote of that passage.
"It is a law to kill anyone who blasphemes the Torah (violating a moral law). The heretics are ones who does such against the Torah. But this law does not apply to the Gentile because they do not know the Torah. It is absolutely forbidden to kill even a Gentile"
Not to mention this is from the Shulchan Aruch which is a commentary (opinion)from a scholar.
Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b?
This quote does not appear in the Talmud; it is likely a forgery.
Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772?
It is commenting about a story: That when the blood of a WICKED person has been spilled it will be regarded as a sacrifice.
Talmud Sanhedrin 74b?
What you pasted is another forgery: This is rather a passage about fire. It talks about Churches in synagogues in Persia where the Christians provided heating for the Synagogue on Shabbat, and in return the Jews provided heating for the Christians in their Churches on Sunday.
Yes, which is why Muslims are allowed to worship at the Temple Mount but no one else (It is also holly to Jews and Christians) but the Muslim administration of the area forbids any other worship besides Islam. Meanwhile the Holiest Churches in Christianity are kept and Christians freely worship. The Wailing Wall where Jews currently worship is open for anyone to worship whether they are Muslim, Christian, or anyone else. Actually Israel has ceded areas and authority over and look what has happened since, almost all of the West Bank and Gaza Christians are emigrating to escape. Their are Mosques in Tel Aviv and Haifa where also remains the only Baha'i community in the Middle East that worships without persecution. So tell me, which Middle East country can a Jew or a Christian open a place of worship without persecution?
Turkey hosts 17,000 (#29)Jews who are emigrating by hundreds a year, do I need to mention the reasons, your hatred views of Jews and other people kinda give away a hint why?
Heres a hint, Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which the number of Christians has grown. Read the paper once in a while to learn about whats happening in the world. Attacks on religious minorities in Turkey including murder of Turks who converted to Christianity, and the human rights profiles on virtually all the region and North Africa.
"My belief was cited in the holy books, your belief is your own made-up"
Only a putz would say this; and who decides just what scriptures are divine and which are not YOU??? whether one follows the Torah, the Quran, or anything else its their own business not yours. Honestly anyone who doesn't share your beliefs would have a knee jerk reaction at that last line. "HOLIER THAN THOU", I don't recognize that you have a religious authority over anything, no one has to ask your opinion about any religion including Islam, Judaism or any others.
You're not qualified to talk about it.
You're only qualified to believe as you like.
You don't have nor does anyone the right to use their own beliefs as a weapon in declaring that ONLY what YOU believe in is right and what anyone else believes in is a "made up WRONG religion" because it does not agree with what YOU believe in. Remember not you, not I, nor anyone on earth today has ever spoken to God therefore what anyone follows is FAITH and BELEIF, and no one can claim to be holier than thou in deciding religious truth.
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Smarts,
One of the world's greatest problems is the impossibility of any person searching for the truth on any subject when they and you believe already have it. It's not a matter of what is true that counts but a matter of what is perceived by you to be true.REGRETTABLE
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By "truth" in this case meaning the "right" faith IS impossible because simply NO ONE can prove that any faith or no faith at all is the so called "truth". Religion(s)/Atheism are BELIEFS and peoples beliefs need to be respected. Science has shown psychical proof of evolution and the age of things through the Carbon 14 Dating Method, now if one chooses to believe differently then its simply "Ok... BELIEVE WHAT YOU WILL". In the case of religion; if one studies the many religious scriptures (as I've have,in addition to my own religious affiliation with Judaism I've also studied Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and many others and I continue to be interested in religions and religion in general), in the end the ONLY thing to support the belief system of every religion is guess what..... BELEIF!!!. My point simply is throughout this entire religious "debate" that no matter what other people believe in or not believe in,its THEIR business ONLY and in a religious context it is THEIR own EXCLUSIVE relationship with God and no one else is allowed to interfere or say squat.
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I am talking about spiritual meaning, not literal meaning.
131- When his Lord said unto him(Abraham): "Be Islam! He said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds."
132- The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): "O my sons! No! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die as only Muslims."
135- And they say: "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided". Say (unto them): "No, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters."
[Bakara]
As you can read and see from the text, Islam means the "true religion of the God" because Abraham had lived far before the transmission of the Kuran. According to one of the hadites: "God grants a pAlace in heaven whoever reads Al-Ikhlas (only) 11 times". It is very easy to go to heaven for a Muslim "IF!" you don't have sins toward people because God doesn't forgive only sins of whom violates the human right. It was cited in many places that bad Muslims, who only pray for showing off, won't be able to go to heaven while there is chance of heaven for some good Christians and Jews which means deeds are even more essential than the expressed belief. Recognition of Muhammed's final prophethood is required so that one would not be confused of fraudulents after him.
[to be continued...]
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Well thats too vague, spiritual meanings can be anything for anyone.
So in the same context one can now argue that Muhammed was a Jew because a Jew means a person who worships God. So in the Muslim point of view if being a Jew or a Christian makes one an idolater then how can you argue that Jews and Christians can get into heaven when idolatry is the most unforgivable sin in Islam, making them into so-called Apes. So when you say some of the good ones, this implies that they have to convert to Islam first, as muslims argue that Islam is the ONLY accepted religion in heaven. They also say that ALL Muslims in the END do get into heaven, being a Muslim and doing good deeds gets one into heaven immediatly, while a Muslim who has done bad deeds goes to hell and is punished temporarily and then gets into heaven. As well converting to Islam makes one forgiven from all previous sins, so even a vile person if right before his death he then TRUELY believed and converted to Islam he then gets ahead of a Hindu, Athiest, Buddhist, and any non-Muslim who has led a reletivley good life.
So what if one does not believe that Muhammed was a prophet, does that make one less God beliving (if you follow any other religion)or less of a good person.
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"Is that why Islam has been spreading widely and so fast in poor countries? It's not me who pressed the name of the God on a USD with a Star of David"
Islam and literacy are one and the same.
no sane educated person can believe the mambo jumbo of Islam, thus why most of educated Turks are not practicing ones.
eventually Islam will have the same fate as the rest of religions, that of dieing out.it already started and there is nothing that can prevent it.
Islam also is not the fastest growing religion in poor countries, evangelist christians of all forms are..
they have already changed the demographics in Africa, from 7 million christians in the early 20th st century there are today almost 400 millions, even in nominally Muslim areas as sap saharan Africa.
the time for social justice, the time for restoring human rights, the time for liberty and egalitarianism is ALWAYS in ALL WAYS the present time.
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on of the biggest shums of turkey is the so called ssm .with revenues of 3 billions a year (from state funds and taxes) has become a tunnel of corruption towards kemalist owned companies.as results it has produce little and even less in actual military built up.Turkish "r and D" eats up 20-30% of the Turkish budget (officially) and produce few hundreds of millions returns.sham written all over it.
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Quite the contrary, you forgot to mention that you'r article is an opinion about the future role of the religion within AMERICAN SOCIETY, although his claims still are unfounded. It is well documented evagalicalism is by far the fastest growing religion in the world meanwhile it is not even a religion in itself its mearly a sect of Christianity which has a VERY powerfull missionary nature. Begining as a small movment in America has now converted 5-10% of China, and within 50 years is expected to have over 1 BILLION followers including at least 50% of Africa and is now even making its pressence shown in Europe. Its been shown that now they have converted 400,000 people in France alone in the last 10 years.
But I don't know why people are so obsessed about bragging about converts in their respective religions; particularly in this fastest growing whatever obbsession, I guess its some peoples notion that only by accepting that faith (that particular faith alone) can one hope to advance to a higher life form and everyone else is of a lower spiritual form and is therefore not worth as much as a person. I'm happy that I don't have to "brag" or claim that my religion being the so-called "ONLY truth" and what ANYONE else thinks is wrong because doing such a thing would violate the very religion.
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It is the interpretation which can be anything for anyone. Meaning is the truth.
Muhammed couldn't be Jewish because he was not of the Hebrew race which was the main condition of Judaism in Medieval age. Exceptions are valid for the each situation. As I've said, deeds are more essential than the expressed belief in Islam and Muslim means "believer of Islam" and Islam means "goodness and accuracy".
Is it different in your judicial system? There is not an execution and all punishments are temporarily. You can't know how many decades a serial killer will remain in the hell. As I've said again, "IF!" you don't have sins toward people because God doesn't forgive only sins of whom violates the human right and anyone who do that is already NOT viewed as a Muslim. ONLY your sins toward the God are forgiven such as drinking, fornication, not praying...etc. You will start seeing the payoff of your both good deeds and sins toward livings in earth life.
You should ask it to the God. I didn't write the verse. But I know one is heralded with heaven saying "There is no God, but Allah." 70,000 times in earth life, as long as no sins toward other people and livings for sure, or more good deeds than sins.
I mean none of the Abrahamic religions was sent to South Asia or Far East because none of them have gone astray as much as Semitic nations. They were Ancient Greeks who were killed by Jews in Kitos War. FYI, according to ahdi atik, greatest enemy of Jews(Hebrews) are Greeks, not Arabs. What's more some religious Jews view muslim Arabs as brother&sister because they are both descendants of Noah. However, Philistines figure who were related with Ancient Greeks, prominently in the Old Testament, above all as Israel's worst enemy. It is symbolic now for sure.
It doesn't function as a Church because it is inside of the Topkapi Palace museum where attracts 3 million tourists per year just like Haghia Sophia museum.
Because, Greece's aim is not religious. It is wanted to create a political symbol just like headscarf in universities and it's not allowed. There is already NOT such a demand already and no one would attend such a school, even from Greece, while even Greek schools in Turkey are empty. Yet, it was shut down together with all of the private schools. However, it is Greek state who even determines muftis of the Muslim community.
Respect is a notional term. It can be shown without any oral action well enough.
Those atheists will probably have faith in God after they die and maybe they will be forgiven. No one can know. It depends on the character of the atheist who you are speaking of. You are saying as though all atheists are wonderful people. You will find more atheists than religious people in jails. Just look at the atheist nations such as Russians. There is nothing to add anymore.
I'm talking about the spread of the Islam, not stable religions such as Christianity which was imposed on people under harsh European colonization.
Does it? So you may as well post the original verse because I can't see any sign of "Non-Jews live in a Jewish country" in that.
I agree. It is total a forgery. But some people take it as a belief which makes it a fact of life.
Maybe it's because Jews and Christians have nothing to do with Mosques of Muslim Quarter. I think people are emigrating to escape from West Bank and Gaza due to Israeli cluster bombs. There is only one Mosque(Mahmudiye Mosque) in the old city of Jaffa, not in Tel-Aviv, and it was built by Turks, so I think you can get why it still remains. I can give you the example of Turkey where many churches are founded.
There are more Jews than 17,000 in Turkey and most of them are elder. Religion is not official in Turkey and one may have his/her identity card's part of religion left blank, so it's impossible to give an exact number. Even not to mention who are borned of mix marriages. Hundreds of Jews adopt Islam every year in Turkey. Many of them are traditional self-hating Jews who view themselves completely Turkish and even change their names. But it's possible considering Judaism is an official religion world wide. In Turkey, they have more serious problems such as Sepharadic corpses in Ashkenazi cemeteries or impossible marriages between Cohen males and Levi females.
I do NOT hate Jews and I already do NOT hate anyone. I'm just criticizing the facts about Jews. I don't agree with their hatred and I oppose their desire of destruction toward gentiles. It is a well known fact that there is a Jewish role in almost every bad event in the world. Even they were Jews who had back of Adolf Hitler and I know some Jewish employers who don't allow their goy employees to sit during the lunch. No matter how there is a good minority among them, most Jews are bad people in general and it's known by everyone including themselves. Even it was mentioned in the Maide sura of Kuran:
" 82- Strongest among men in enmity to the believers(Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant."
If the percentage of the world's population that was Jewish in the era of the Roman Empire were Jewish today, there would be 200 million Jews. Counting hundred millions of victims of Christiany, I can't imagine what kind of hell the world would be if there were 200 million Jews in the world. Maybe that's why God doesn't allow Jews to multiply.
There were only two attacks realized in the last decade and it's already known by everyone they are supported by Western Powers. You may see hundreds of Greeks in Princes' Islands, full of missionaries, in 23th April and even holiest days of Jews are celebrated officially.
Again, my belief was cited in the holy books, your belief is your own made-up. It is rather you who is predominant to propethood.
...and as I've said before I do not hate anyone. BUT! I gnaw my way through false people. I am for truth, beauty and justice - or else!
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jul 14, 2009 6:18 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jul 14, 2009 6:16 PM
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As for the PKK terrorist, your ideology requests your traditional satanic custom. God doesn't grant praying to likes of you. Even one may contact with the God up to point and ask many questions or demand many wishes. I am not talking about a dialogue for sure. You should learn to use your brain and reach a higher spiritual level to see that after overcoming many terrific disasters. That's why some bad, but not very destructive, things usually happen to good people.
Plus, you could be right for 10 years ago but religion has becoming popular again among educated people as well.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Jul 14, 2009 6:39 PM
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Truth maybe to YOU, but YOU'RE opinions are not universaly binding.
No not at all, even the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) has an entire book on the account of the first non-Hebrew woman who converted to Judaism, as well Jews are told that a convert will be treated as one would consider Moses as a Jew. Well if you would call Moses a Muslim because he submitted to God, then why not can one argue that Muhammed was a Jew because he worshiped and praised God which is what Judaism means. Then you have the concept of Shirk, and Muslims say that one who dies upon following this can never enter heaven, and Shirk is a belief not a DEED, and one who converts to Islam is forgiven of all previous sins, beliefs there outway deeds.
Jews subscribe that temporary punishment is offered for everyone depending on their deeds, but it will not punish people who just didn't follow Judaism. For Muslims everyone being guilty of shirk (in the muslim point of view of what shirk is)is outright barred from entering heaven, so one must first convert to Islam to get into heaven. But a Muslim who subscribed to the belief system, but has done bad deeds gets a temporary punishment, but a good person of a non-Muslim faith cannot get eaither.
It was the Romans, who ruled the entire region at the time, this would incude many different ethnic people who participated on either side suffered losses like in any war. Perhaps Ancient Greek polytheism at one time was as it ruled from the Adriatic to the Gange River, but Judaism came out intact and its community exists to this day as the oldest in Europe. And how is it relevant today. Jews believe that all people can trace their roots to one of the Grandsons of Noah, showing the common bond of all humanity, Greeks are said to come from Yavan who's offsprings formed the first Greek tribe; the Ionians. Most likely the Philistines were related to the so called "sea people" or pirate clans who controled the sea routes at the time, this would include an earlier Greek tribe, in addition to the many other cultures who existed in the region throughout time. Either way it is irrelevant today.
Then how can you brag about allowing Churches in Turkey and using it as an example when you don't even allow it to function as a Church.
It is an international clerical school for Orthodox Christians as the Patriarch and its institutions at its location are their primary center of learning (or at least it was, as Mt Athos, Moscow, Monastiraki and many others have taken its place as a central learning center). Actually in Greece theological schools are filled beyond capacity and now former communist nations have adopted traditional beliefs in recent years especially Russia, Turkey since 1924 has directly and indirectly forced out all but 5000 Greeks and took all their properties, meanwhile Muslim clerical school are open in Turkey. And Turkey does not appoint its own Imams and Muftis? In Greece Muftis are given legal authority and are also judges in Sharia courts, not even Orthodox Priests or Jewish Rabbis in Greece have their own individual court systems. And under Greek law ALL judges with the ability to hand down sentences HAVE to be appointed, the judges of the civil to supreme court are appointed therefore so are the Mufti judges. The major difference as well being that Greece HAS Muslim clerical schools, even mosques in places with no Muslims are still registered as mosques.
We'll some people like to be expressive in their worships, Muslims as well kiss a black stone during Hajj.
The point here was simply describing the view of afterlife in Judaism, that simply having beliefs alone are not grounds for determining a person as righteous or not. The Taliban have and are still oppressing millions; meanwhile their whole lives are centered around beliefs. Meanwhile if one is an atheist (or anything) and has carried out more good than bad deeds. Jews believe that ALL people will be judged according to their DEEDS and simply being Jewish or non-Jewish will not make a heep of difference for anyone. In this case an atheist who has done more good deeds will get ahead of a religious person who has done fewer; in the Jewish view. Sure there are many religious people who do a great many good deeds, for some likely influenced to do so by their beliefs but that is not the point here.
Well hey, 25% of Israel is non-Jewish and they dont immigrate, unlike religious minorities living in other places. In Ancient Israel as well, scored of non-Jewish tribes lived in the country for centuries, Jews then had to follow 613 laws which governed everything you did, meanwhile non-Jews only had to follow 7 laws.
I said that what YOU posted was a forgery, what you copied and pasted from Radio Islam are their own made-up quotes which don't appear anywhere in the Talmud, I already gave the exaplanation of each one you posted. Exactly, because when hate groups take a passage from anywhere and then re-write it themselves, and then accuse others of following it when they don't makes other people who have not read the texts believe what they say is true. It seems like they got to you to as its clear that you have not yourself read these texts, yet fully buy into their phony accusations meanwhile what you posted ended up not being in the texts at all.
Actually it's the exact opposite of that. The Al-Aqsa Mosque is located on the Temple Mount which incidently is the site where the Bet HaMikdash once stood which is the holiest place in Judaism as well it's a holy place for Christians. Meanwhile the Muslim administration who manages the area forbides anyother worship on the mount besides Islam. Jews & Christians cannot even go on it if they intend to do any worship anywhere on it even outside the mosque. Meanwhile the Kotel "Western Wall" where Jews currently worship is open for ANYONE to worship at and one can freely say prayers of their own religion, as Jews believe that one cannot interfere with someone elses relationship with God. Since when where there cluster bombs in the West Bank? Israel has ceded areas for years now and put them under PA admin control, the result... almost all Arab-Christians have left as their persecution grew. Meanwhile Israel has seen it's Arab-Christian population grow. Most police officers in Jeruselem are Israeli-Arabs of Muslim and Christian background.
Jaffa is considered part of Tel-Aviv as the two cities now have merged into Tel-Aviv-Yaffo district. There are also mosques avaliable in hotels and even airports, and Tel Aviv is only 1% Muslim. Yawn ya sure keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel more importiant. Ya meanwhile most Turkish-Jews live outside of Turkey and the ratio of immigration is increasing constantly, no matter how much you try to cover it up the fact still remains.
which facts? oh the ones you got from extremist websites who change the words of Jewish texts to make false accusations.
And what PROOF do you have of that, all you have shown are forged quotes created by Radio Islam. Gentile itself simply means a non-Jew and they are worth no more or less than Jews, Jews believe ALL people are judged equally according to their DEEDS not religion, and all people come from the same roots. All people have a personal, and exclussive relationship with God which is why we don't have missionaries or Dawa, Jews are prohibited to tell anyone to abandon their religion to convert to Judaism or anything else.
And who are YOU to label all the people of an entire religion and judge them all as bad human beings, what gives you that right. How would you feel if I said that "Muslims are all terrorists" that would not be very nice would it. And lay off the religious quote preaching, you can't use your religion as a holier than thou weapon. You're not qualified to make any of these assessments and you're not God to judge other people nor to decide just which is the so-called "correct religion".
Ok, Im going to try to be as nice as I can with this last part. But, this is indicative of a certain mindset I resent and it needs answering. There is a tone in this that infers you as Judge and Jury with the way anyone else lives their lives. And, last time I heard, there is only one Higher Power that can judge anyone.
So, hold your breath, here we go.
"Again, my belief was cited in the holy books, your belief is your own made-up. It is rather you who is predominaçnt to propethood....and as I've said before I do not hate anyone. BUT! I gnaw my way through false people. I am for truth, beauty and justice - or else"
My sense is, You have no clue what the laws in any religions entail. I've studied many religions and consider them all valid, because peoples faiths are importiant to them and NEEDS to be respected. And NO ONE should have to ask YOU what religion to follow, your not God, nor have you nor has anyone ever spoken to God today, yet you feel that you have the right to Judge everyone else and declare that ONLY YOUR religion is valid while what anyone else believes is wrong. And who decides just what is truth, beauty, and justice... YOU??. Im not convinced that YOU have any religious authority on the subject, its YOUR belief system and that is that. And I may or may not agree, But your NO ONE I nor anyone has to check with.
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Nothing is binding as long as it doesn't violate others' rights.
As I've said before even a marriage between a Cohen man and a Levi woman is a problem in Judaism that is quite based on racism. It has already been proved that Kurds are the cloest relatives of Jews. Neither Judaism, nor Christianty are related with the original texts. They rather became a point of view and way of life. It was already cited in Kuran that Egyptian wizards had become muslim having seen the miracle of Moses. According to hadithes, after many disasters of the Deccal (Antichrist in Western texts), Jesus will come down to the minaret of the Umayyad Mosque (in Damascus), beat the Deccal and start calling people to Islam. So neither Judaism, nor Christianty are no longer valid as a Godlike faith. If Judaism and Christianty could keep their truth, then Islam wouldn't sent anyway. I SAID! "IF!" you don't have sins toward people because God doesn't forgive only sins of whom violates the human right and anyone who do that is already NOT viewed as a Muslim. One who converts to Islam is forgiven of all previous sins because he swears for the goodness at the same time. ONLY your sins toward the God are forgiven. So Turkish and Greek ministers who go well at money siphoning, are probably going to go to the same place. Even religious Turkish ministers will go deeper counting only Ankara's mayor has $4 B wealth.
No matter how I've been tired of repeated all the same stuffs I shall repeat one more time. Islam says one cannot just follow the belief system and expect to get into heaven without doing good works. It was cited in many places that bad Muslims, who only pray for showing off, won't be able to go to heaven while there is chance of heaven for some good Christians and Jews which means deeds are even more essential than the expressed belief. Judaism grants heaven only for Jews and commands annihilation of the all non-Jews.
That doesn't change the cause of the Ancient Greek Extinction. Jewish population had almost extinct in the Byzantine Empire and "Jew Burning Festival" is still celebrated in Greek Islands.
I mentioned to brotherhood of Ishmael and Isaac, sons of Abraham. In religious Hebrew literature, sons of Isaac(Jews) and sons of Ishmael(Arabs) are brothers (By the way, Sarah the mother of Isaac insists Abraham on exiling Ishmael and his mother to desert). According to illiterate Jews, Muslim Egyptians, Algerians, Afghans...etc. all are Turkish. Philistines were of Cretan origin in fact. Israel doesn't mention that politically because it uses Greek bases for exercises and considering Turkey's leadership in the region. If Greece was like Turkey, then Philistines had probably been from Athens or Constantinople.
I don't know if you are aware of what an illogical question you've asked but it was used as a church for centuries years. It doesn't function as a Church because it has far more tourists than spiritual visitors.
All Orthodox nations have their own churches now and even a Bulgarian or Armenian doesn't go to a Greek church. Even old Turkish habitants of Istanbul have left the city center. Eastern-Orthodox population of Istanbul was already elder and their traditional business administration couldn't compete with Turkish business. There are still 60,000 Armenians who are relatively more successful. You'd better read some true stuffs.
Some Muslims like to be expressive in their worships while they are in Kabaa, yet it's not a custom.
Taliban has been USING the religion. God uses good people on the earth to spread his willpower and bad people use the God to spread their own willpower on the earth. Characters in Kuran had been generalized. Criticism towards Jews was cited as though it's for the each Jewish person but it also mentions that there are a few good Jews. It's probably the same for the atheists.
How satisfaying it is for a country where it's population was %95 non-Jewish in the last century. 5 million Palestinian refugees, who still have keys of their homes in Israeli occupied areas, didn't want to immigrate as well.
Abdulhamid II had purchased all the lots in Palestine against Jewish settlement and %20 of them were properties of Palestinians.
Seeing that assets of Ottoman dynasty were owned by the government, most of the lands in Palestine belongs to Turkey legally, no matter how Turkey has no claims for now. After anti-expressions of the Israeli general staff about Turkey, land registry was sent to Palestine which makes Palestinians right about their homes. Still today Palestinians have been getting kicked out of their homes illegaly. Moreover if Jewishness is not an ethnicity, then Jews have no historical rights at all in Palestine as well.
No occupants have the right to force people to live in cages like animals in their own homeland. That's what Jews do in the Jewish state where was founded in occupied territories today, in spite of a good life almost in everyone else's country:
FINE. Then you may as well post the ORIGINAL verse.
Maybe it's because Al-Aqsa Mosque was tried to bomb 7 times by Jews and it's already known that underground of Al-Aqsa Mosque is being digged to demolish by Israelis for the reconstruction of the third temple. Western Wall is a WALL and Jews have no right to ban anyone where is still an occupied UN territory officially. It's a bit related with the Arabic nationalism. Foreigners are not allowed to enter mosques in UAE as well, even if they are Muslim.
They are only Druze people who are even allowed to join with Israeli army because their way of life is very similar with Judaism such as banning inter-racial marriage which means not to unmake the Jewish race. There is not a discrimination between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon or Turks and Kurds in Turkey. The Palestinian has no chance in Israel.
Tel-Aviv-Jaffa and Jerusalem are also expected to be merged up to 10 years. Even if Israel becomes a city-state like Singapore, it doesn't change the fact that Jaffa is not a 100 year old town like Tel-Aviv. I wondered how many airports are there in Tel-Aviv? South-Cypriot Lira had also Turkish scripts but it had no use just like a couple of "masjids" in Tel-Aviv. There is also a great temple for 700 Bahai in 7,000,000 Israel. One may get Israel as a tolerant country for all people at a first glance but is truly not. First, it's rather a city park because no other Bahai temple in the world has such a fancy garden as in Haifa. Second, the temple in the middle of gardens looks like Dome of The Rock in Jerusalem so much which gives a "message" to inhabitants of Haifa that they should always remember while it gives a different message to the Western World. Advisedly, but you can't trick people who are cleverer than you. What if Jews do only one thing without a bad purpose?
Ratio of Jewish immigration had increased constantly since Israel was founded. Germany requested Jews in Turkey for extermination and according to Gestapo leader Heinrich Himmler, Germany founded SS groups for extermination of 120,000 Jews in Turkey. Those people came to Turkey as German officers who survived from the battleships which were shot by Soviets. But none of the Jews in Turkey paid attention that because they knew Turkish people wouldnt allow that. Many semi-religious Jews are praying with Adhan and reading Kuran as well as Armenians do.
You still couldn't post even a single original verse.
Because Judaism hasn't allowed anyone who was borned of a non-Jew to Jewishness for the last century. I know perfectly well the difference between a fact and nonsense such as "Jews drink child blood in Pesah".
I said "in general", not "all" and that's a well-known fact globally. That's already what you want to say but you know the truth as well as I do. HAMAS was created by Israel against secular FATAH. Al-Qaida was created by USA and I have already posted the facts about 11 September. Even in 2003 Istanbul bombings, they attacked on HSBC headquarters and British consulate, not American. Eventually, victims were Muslim Turks. They didn't attack Israeli consulate, they attacked synagogues which caused death of Jews and Turks so that they would leave Turkey for Israel that is categorized as "Zionism". Also considering Hitler's Jewish support, one may see that many Jews can be as awful as to wish death of their own people for political and religious purposes. Besides, Islam is a religion and depends on choice, not anything inborn like Jewishness.
Nikola Tesla who was an as good physician as Albert Einstein has not been so renowned. Tesla had left the "Philadelphia Experiment Project" considering lives of the sailors and right after he had a suspicious end (He was murdered and a lot of people reacted when American authorities claimed he died in his bed). On the other hand, Jewish Einstein, who was given a Nobel(Alfred Nobel was inventor of TNT and his father was a weapon producer which makes even "Nobel Peace Awards" tragicomical) prize, caused death of 500,000 people giving atomic bomb plans to USA. Nobel prize had never been given to Tesla because he was Serbian Orthodox. He had already mentioned that he wouldn't have held the nobel prize in the event that even if he was given. American government had confiscated his all because Tesla had many military projects. I think that's one of the best examples between being a Jew and non-Protestant Christian in the Western order.
God didn't send all those religions to make a diversity in the world where most victims are religion based. It had already been mentioned in Kuran that Jews know Islam as well as the name of their children, but they deny. As for me, I already don't care about anyone's belief and I've said almost all so far.
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Nothing is binding as long as it doesn't violate others' rights.
Great, so believe what you will,
Nope, Jews believe that the Levis were appointed by Moses and Joshua to be the prayer leaders of Israel and carry out ceremonial, and medical services for the other 11 tribes, the other tribes got to own the lands of Cannann and harvest it. As most people back then until the 20th century had to work in the fields all day with no time for schooling therefor the majority of people were illiterate. The Levi tribe was appointed just to solve this problem, they could own no land, and could not marry outside their tribe, instead their only job was to go to school and learn how to read and write so Israel would have a supply of individuals to carry out religious and hygienic services. They only were allowed to receive a share of the daily food set aside in the Temple. Although since the Temple no longer exists and since ceremonial laws are non-binding (remember for Jews only DEEDS really matter), and since most people today are literate so this tradition has expired. Jews as well believe that certain ceremonial laws are only meant for only certain periods of time when they were actually needed for survival. Oh and what race is this?
Jews are not a race, one can find people of every background who subscribe to Judaism yes including Kurds, why? does this according to you make someone any less of a human being. Say's who YOU?? and how are you qualified to make that assessment, and how much do you actually know about Judaism and it's background, have you actually read Jewish scriptures and these "original texts" to give an educated argument? Quoting your own religion to force an argument means nothing, Just the same I can quote countless verses from my own which points to something totally different, and how many other religions came after Islam which states that Islam is not the "true faith" does this mean everyone should keep converting to the newest one which claims superiority? BTW get rid of that holier than thou trauma it just seems desperate on your part. No faith still holds a higher role than deeds considering the Muslims believe that Muhammad said "No one shall enter hell who has an atom of faith in his heart". But which faith obviously the Muslims would say Islam, which is why it is subscribed that a sinning Muslim is only punished temporarily and a non-Muslim ("Kaffir", meaning NONBELIEVER) IS acceptable for hell. Muslims believe that a person who has committed Shirk cannot be forgiven and is destined for hell anyway. And what if a person has NO FAITH whatsoever and has done more good deeds than others, will a faithful true believing Muslim who has done a less number of good deeds get ahead or behind such a person (not a religious point but interesting to note). No, in fact Jews don't even believe in hell, why don't you quote where Jews are "commanded" to do such (a real quote though). As such Jews believe that EVERYONE can be considered as a metaphorical child of God since Jews believe that all humans were given the same laws of civilization (not religion but thought for the common good), which is why Judaism does not have missionaries or people trying to convert non-Jews into the religion why?, because Jews believe that simply following Judaism will not get you closer or further from heaven.
Of course they simply modernized, who calls oneself ancient anything? No it's actually called burning of JUDAS (whom Christians believe was the disciple who betrayed Jesus). Besides I've studied and learned about their religion (and many others) and as such respect and admire it, how about you?.
Why don't you just get to the point your trying to make and finally declare that God as well is Turkish. I would also consult a biologist and a psychiatrist if I were you for the other points. Philistines are among the sea people, related from an earlier Greek tribe, Cretans as an identity didn't exist then, I think the word your looking for is MYCENAEAN which has roots to most Mediterranean cultures as its influence spread so far in its prime as warriors and merchants. Philistines as well adopted the Canaanite cultures and mixed in with 31 tribes in ancient Cannann. Again regardless it is irrelevant, Jews as well follow that everyone is somewhat related anyway. Wow what a waste of data all these other statements and you accuse JEWS and GREEKS of bias and racism.
TO BE CONTINUED... too many inaccuracies to correct for one day.
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Ya expelling populations and confiscating properties is real tough competition for any business. Greeks were the wealthiest people in the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman economy relied on Greek administration and businesses classes... Greeks were among the only citizens who could speak other European Languages so both Greek administered politics, and business ensured the Ottoman Empires survival, and then seeing it rot away once Turks started committing atrocities against other people. So what, human rights is on a higher level than money, there are Mosques in touristic parts of Greece in where no Muslims lived since the population exchange but they still up kept and if one wants to worship in one they may do so.
Well according to them and most other religious point of view, it's only THEM who are spreading Gods will and everyone ELSE is wrong. They would say the same about you and me. Seems everyone is trying claim this exclusive privilege. That makes no sense since you first implied that Judaism and any non-Muslim faith is idolatry and since for Muslims idolatry is the worst and most unforgivable sin then in the Muslim view what makes a good non-Muslim one must FIRST convert to Islam, since Islam is the ONLY non-idolatory faith.
Tell that to Jordon & Egypt who actually occupied and abolished the Palestinian State. Gaza, the West Bank and most other areas designated to Palestine was taken by Egypt & Jordon including East-Jerusalem and treated the Palestinians horrifically. Israel was created with only the coastal area of Tel-Aviv to Haifa and the Negev desert (which had hardly any population and relatively useless). As well Arabs expelled 700,000 Jews from their countries so where was there left for them to go? The Arabs occupied Palestine until 1967 and since Israel has granted the PA administration over the West Bank and Gaza (before Hamas destroyed the peace plan). Please think over your arguments before posting, this is a legal question under international law, sovereignty and real estate, try it out and see how long your argument holds up anywhere; oh and IF you are correct it would mean Greece has the right with its preserved ancient documentation to claim Turkey, the Middle East, India, and Egypt overnight. Great so Muslims then have no historical right of Mecca under the same argument, and STILL non-Muslims cannot go there. As well Jeddah once had a large Greek population so Greeks have a bigger claim over Saudi Arabia than Muslims. Just more anti-Semitic conspiracy trash, Jews believe that the Third Temple will only be rebuilt on Judgment day under the guidance of the Messiah, it is pointless, and simply not an issue because one does not know the exact foundation or diameters of the first temples to rebuild it, and Jews believe that the Temple cannot be a millimeter different. Although Jews have asked for the right to pray in only certain parts of the Temple Mount (not the mosque). The Kotel (Western Wall) is the only surviving fragment of the Second Temples outer complex and ANYONE can worship there according to their own religion. This is not a new customs, since Ancient Israel non-Jews were allowed to worship in the Temple itself. Now when will Jews, Christians, and everyone else be given the same right in return?
Non-Jews are not required to join the military although they may if they choose, if anything that's better, to be able to choose. In Jerusalem most police are Arab-Israelis. As much as 10% of the Arab Bedouin population volunteers for military service. Druze as well made an agreement with the state to serve. And look Turkey still still has its minority problems and a 30 year non-stop conflict, and when did Turkey finally start allowing Kurdish to be spoken in public? or Greeks to have a clerical school. Have YOU actually been to Israel to give a qualified analysis? The Bahá'í World Centre is one of the biggest expansion projects in Israel is now a city within a city with a university and many learning centers for such a tiny community, and is the center of the entire Baha'i faith. well hey, the way the world is now going with growing urban sectors and rapid expansion the earth may very well one day grow into a Ecumenopolis--- hence forcing mankind to expand beyond the earth.
Go back and read,was it STILL not generalized enough.
"It is a law to kill (sentence to death in a court of law) anyone who blasphemes the Torah (violating a moral law). The heretics are ones who does such against the Torah. But this law does not apply to the Gentile because they do not know the Torah. It is absolutely forbidden to kill even a Gentile"
The other is a misquote from Shulcan Aruch:
"It is permitted to kill (sentenced in a court of law) a denunciator"
The quote from Shulcan Aruch applies to killing of heretics (sentenced in a court of law). This law does not apply to anyone non-Jewish and it is forbidden to harm any gentile. The heretics are people which are a potential cause of harm to others. Although the way the Jewish court system was established such sentences were hardly (if ever) passed, many of these were probably symbolic to point out the wrongness of certain actions.
Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772?
"Because he was zealous for his God and atoned for the children of Israel" It says "he atoned"--did he bring a sacrifice? This teaches us that whoever spills the blood of the WICKED is like someone who brings a sacrifice.
"Raba said: When they (the persecutors) demand it for their personal pleasure. it is different. For otherwise, how dare we yield to them' (the Parsees) our braziers (fire bellows) and coal shovels"
In larger context with the entire book and in proper Hebrew this is just a bunch of political discussion and talks about Churches in synagogues in Persia where the Christians provided heating for the Synagogue on Shabbat, and in return the Jews provided heating for the Christians in their Churches on Sunday.
The others simply don't exist at all in any Jewish texts.
As well the Quran has a number of verses first written in the Talmud centuries before "Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world." Jerusalem Talmud Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a) which is the exact same statement as a Quranic verse (not a religious point but interesting to note).
wrong, Judaism has no body or institution that can do anything of the sort. No Popes or Caliphs that can enforce law through religion, and no Holy Orders or Fatwas. Cerimonial Laws are self-policed and non-binding as Jews reject any interference in anyones way of worship or religion... hence (DEEDS not BELEIFS). And nobody can throw anyone out of the religion, "just who do you think YOU are" and "What business is it of yours" speaks to a major cornerstone of Jewish belief. Similarly Muslims as well hold a custom that Muslim women cannot marry a non-Muslim man, although this law CAN and IS enforced in many Muslim countries, often through local Imam issued fatwas condemning individuals by name.
And how are YOU qualified to make that assessment, are you God?, or better yet do you command God and can pre-determine the labeling of millions of people without even knowing them? Get off the holier than thou tantrum. There is certainly no lack of people in the world who link Islam with violence, is this true then? Now if one takes the time to study then it's easy to find out. one should study different religions themselves instead of resorting to these clumsy conspiracy theories; Avoid these double standard arguments.
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I already do not asking you, I've just cited the meaning of the Islam.
If there is no conversion in Judaism, then all Jews are descendants of immigrated Hebrew people. Jewish rabbis claim a "racial" heritage, because according to them, God created the Jewish nation/race in Genesis, with the birth of Jacob, whose name was changed to "Israel", and it was through his seed that the Jewish nation came into existence.
I SAID that it has already been proved that Kurdish race is the closest of Jewish race which is obviously a propaganda trash. Some Turks also started to claim that Palestinians are descendents of immigrated people from Anatolia in Ottoman period as a counter-propaganda.
No religions came after Islam and it was also cited that Kuran is protected by God against changes unlike others. So they're not my words. You have no idea about the after-life so you can't make any reliable comment about that. Praying is also a deed. Someone who is both poor and disabled have no chance but praying. No one cares about any personal ideas of some Muslim people. No one has any idea about what the hell exactly is but there is a certain truth: Hell is a punishment. I didn't surprise that Jews don't even believe in hell. I've posted many Jewish quotes before. You may also read the recent statements of Ovadya Josef such as "Goyim are servant animals". Even Jews had themselves so hated that Moses commanded to kill everyone's neighbour which caused 6,000 deaths. Same laws for everyone? Such as commerce with interest is banned among Jews but it's commanded towards Gentiles?
Sea people were either Phoenician or Greek in the ancient age. Modern archaeology has also proved early cultural links with the Mycenean culture. Adopting a culture doesn't change the origin of a nation. So adopting the Canaanite culture didn't make them Canaanite as well as adopting Greek culture didn't make Macedonians Greek. Jewish population had almost extinct under the harsh Byzantine rule and that's why Ottoman Empire imported Jews...to reduce the "Rhomaioi" influence in trade sector. Fact is fact.
There are also 70,000 Armenians and 25,000 Jews in Istanbul who share the same situation with Eastern-Orthodox people but they didn't leave for the reasons you're trying to cover. Ottoman Empire is over and there is no longer a system which makes Greeks rich by easy way. Some words such as "hard-working" or "quality management" are foreign to Greeks and they couldn't compete with Turks. Even there were nothing called "Greek" until 19th century. They were Eastern-Orthodox people and "New Greeks" were created later. They had no administration under Turkish Rule and they were only employed in trade sector. Besides there were both riches and poors in every nation as now, production was the primary matter of the economy and Eastern-Orthodox people were not capable of producing as now also. They were only employed in trade sector as well as Armenians and Jews which also means trade sector was not only owned by them. Because when Turks captured the Byzantine empire, they were minority as population base and it was totally arranged by Turkish governors so that ethnic Turks become majority. A farmer family needed many children to cultive huge lands but a merchant was the only active in the family which causes to have less children. So there is no question of ensurement by Eastern-Orthodox people. If they really had, they would have surely considered that. A new Greek state was founded by incredible efforts of the whole central powers for new Greeks and they started awful atrocities toward Turks. Turks could easily annihilate the whole Eastern-Orthodox people in it's best period and no one could intervene but instead, Turks had given every kind of rights to people under their rule. They were mostly Turks who could speak multiple languages and ONLY Turks had been active in bureaucracy and politics, Greeks never. You're trying to catch something full with empty lies but it fails every time. These are all propaganda trash against Turkish rule for over 400 years by Greeks who don't have only a single achievement throughout history.
When the matter is human rights, Greece cannnot even compete with Turkey. There are 70 active Eastern-Orthodox churches in Istanbul only for 2,000 people. But all the historical mosques in Athens were converted into churches and no mosques are allowed although there are far more Muslims.
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Again believe what you will, but not everyone including many Muslims would agree with everything you say.
incorrect, I said there are no MISSIONARIES in Judaism and never have been, meaning Jews don't seek to convert other people into the religion, just who do you think you are speaks to this nature. In fact Jews are prohibited to tell anyone else that their religion is false and that they should convert to Judaism. This is because Jews believe that it is simply not necessary to be Jewish to make it to heaven, now if Judaism had been a belief centric religion in regards to afterlife then there WOULD have been missionaries, but the Jewish idea is simply DEEDS not BELIEFS. Therefor missionaries or people telling others that their religion is wrong and ONLY what someone else thinks is the ONLY way to heaven is not necessary or desired. Now if one WISHES to convert they MAY go through the conversion process, most Jews are not of the Hebrew background, the Khazars who converted to Judaism alone make up a large part, and the numbers of people who converted after Paganism was abolished in the Roman Empire.
false, if Jewish was a race then why is the word "Hebrew" in Jewish scriptures at all?, individuals identified with in such terms when race was involved, and the term Jewish was used when religion was involved. It's just like how Muslims believe Islam was first given to Arabs, it is believe that Judaism was given to the Hebrews, although by no means ONLY limited to them. And "nation" similar to what Muslims call Ummah and the idea of a single Muslim state, although very limited region wise. Sure, perhaps Kurds COULD be distantly related to Hebrew people (as well as Arabs, Cannanites, and many many others)it was also belived that Abraham was born in the city of Ur "Northern Kurdish Iraq", now if you take simply use the word "Jewish" then ALL peoples would be related to it as Judaism more or less has subscribers of most backgrounds. And what does it matter if it is or isn't, seems your arguments are getting borderline racism here.
Says who YOU?, everyother religion on earth will say exactly the same thing as you just did, all religions more or less believe that THEIRS is eternal, perfect, and completed. The Bahai believe that everyother Abrahamic religion is incomplete and ONLY theirs is the fullfilled message, and so on, and so on. There is no way of avoiding this reality and there is nothing one can say about it. Read again, I said Jews "BELIEVE". The concept of Hell was first an ancient Greek belief called Tartarus, the same word and description was adopted by the Christians, and later Muslims used the same description as the Christians did. The idea of admission, setting, fire, sulfur, demons, beasts, torment, and ruled by an evil being was first coined by the ancient Greeks. And Satan incidently comes from the Hebrew word ha-Satan meaning the CHOICE of evil, or the ACCUSER of evil. Jews believe in other punishments and fates for evil people. Of course there is nothing wrong with belief in hell for anyone or any religion, in fact it's not a bad idea. Regarding "interest to Gentiles" that's another poor misconception--- Jewish law prohibited interest when borrowing or lending to Jews but required Jews to PAY interest to non-Jews when borrowing money from them and vice versa. Also because non-Jews did not outlaw the practice of charging interest, and because in most non-Jewish nations and communities interest was not only permitted it was also the law of the land set at a fixed rate and Jews could not charge a rate beyond what was permitted. This is further because Judaism has other cerimonial laws attatched to things such as banking, regulations, and rules of conduct and non-Jews are not bound by Jewish cerimonial laws, therefor Jews have to follow and respect the laws of non-Jews when working with them. If a non-Jewish country or community were to as well ban the charging of interest then Jews would be REQUIRED to follow this when working with them and no interest can be paid or charged.
In addition to mixing in with the 31 tribes of Canaan over a considerable period of time. Not to mention the Philistine language had little resemblance to any Greek dialect over such a long period. By the time the Hebrews came around they were identified as native Canaanites, had very little if anything left of a supposed long past Greek relation through intermarriage over so long. Either way it's irrelevant as Jews believe that everyone is somewhat related anyway.
Incorrect, you should study more of YOUR OWN history. btw there is no such a thing as a race called "Eastern Orthodox Person" who gives that responce when asking about a background, just cheap anti-Hellenic propaganda. Not to mention vast documentation and simply histroy for that matter shows the total opposite, hey this is not me talking it's international historians and things you find in archives, documentation, and what is taught at EVERY credible history institution on earth and not conspiracy theories.. It's like saying there is no such thing as a Turk, Turks were only created in 1924 by Ataturk, they are really Ottoman or Muslim people. False, Greeks by the 18th century managed most if not the overwhelming part of Ottoman administration and politics, this was also due to the rise of the Phanariotes the wealthiest class of Greek citizens who managed the Patriarchy. Being advanced in the financial and merchant trade business on an international scale Greeks were the most bilingual of citizens and able to speak other languages; this was also due because Muslims were discouraged from learning foreighn languages. Diplomacy and the economy were managed by by them including taxes, holding monopolies, contracting, banking, and trading; they even were given rule over the provinces Moldavia and Wallachia; Nicholas Mavrocordatos was appointed as "prince" there and introduced Greek traditions. Hey it's not me talking it's what international historians say, and I don't think Turkish historians would deny it either, you can believe what you will but I don't know how credible it will be.
"When the matter is human rights, Greece cannnot even compete with Turkey"
This is why Muslims prosper in Greece with mosques, religious courts, clerical schools, granted representation on all levels, Muslim student admission quotas, and special legal benefits including polygammy which is illegal to all other citizens. Meanwhile Turkey does not even allow a single clerical school. Incorrect it was in fact Churches which were converted into Mosques including Haiga Sofia and numerous others. Greeks restored Churches which were BUILT as Churches and taken away by force, Mosques which were built as Mosques remained and are still kept and registered as Mosques even in places without a Muslim population since the population exchange.
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Maybe it's because Jews accept the existence of no religion but Judaism. I really wonder what are those "GOODEEDS" of Jews? Such as buying 170m long luxury yacht with others' money instead of a 100m as Abramovich did. Most Jews appreciate someone with religious practice and even religious Jews do not hesitate to open fire in the event of a divergent situation. Being was born of a Jewish mother is also the proof of Judaism is an ethnicity as well. Then why Yiddish is not the official language of Israel? "Jewish" originally described someone who descends from the kingdom of Juda. "Muslim" or "Moslem" means "follower of the Mohammed's religion". Even in Turkish there are two prouns about Jews: "Yahudi"(ethnic name of the Jew which is usually used to describe Jews) and "Musevi"(follower of the Moses's religion which doesn't exist in even Hebrew language). Likewise "Isevi" has a rare use about the original religion of Jesus(Isa). There is no idea of a single Muslim state. Jews rather have the idea of a single world state run by Jews. "Kurds" are an "illustrated" nation against Turkey and even have never existed. They are "Sunni Iranians" from Eastern Iran who exchanged with "Shi'a Azeris" in Ottoman Era. "Ur" was an ancient Sumerian city in Southern Iraq. I say the truth. They are rather Jews who can't stand for other ethno-religious people. I said it was "CITED". First godlike religion was the original form of what you call Judaism today. Original Christiany was it's cont and Islam is the final. In fact, Islam is the cont of original Judaism because Christianity is something totally different. Fidelity to Church is the all and how you live doesn't matter. Living according to canon laws(as disorted form) during 24 hours is all that matters in both Judaism and Islam. All those religions hadn't been sent to make a diversity in the world where most victims are religion based. Which religion says it is final except for the Islam or a rigmarole. Such a point of view makes Baha'i a relative interpretation, not religion. I read: "No, in fact Jews don't even believe in hell". So what? "Medina(t)" is also a Hebrew word. Jewish law prohibited interest when borrowing or lending to Jews(cited as "eachother") but it doesn't say anything about non-Jews which makes interest "prohibited" in fact. First "interest" was carried out by Jews so how on earth non-Jews did not outlaw the practice of charging interest?
Believe what you will. Of course Jews are no longer Hebrew and it has been thousands of years since extinction of Philistines. All nations are symbolic currently. Even most Greek historicians agree with that true Greeks were wiped off the earth by Roman invasion in 146th BC. Modern Greeks are descendants of Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, Cumans, Scythians...etc. who started to invade Peloponessia in 6th AC. The common way of these 13 nations were being Orthodox. Cypriot nation is a good example. As I've said 240,000 Greeks in Cyprus were entirely annihilated by Jews in Kitos war. Demographic structure of the island has completely changed by this war. After over 400 year Byzantine rule, which provided some Hellenization of the island culturally, new nations appeared and generated Christian population on the island in the following 320 year Arabic rule, 380 year Crusader rule and 310 year Turkish rule. For the sake of example, more than 30,000 Armenians left Cilicia and settled in Cyprus as a result of French Crusade until 1489. So they have nothing to do with ancient Greeks just like the entire modern Greeks. There are also many "Red Jews" in Israel who only speak Hebrew, a quite different form of the biblical Hebrew, just like the Greek language which is quite different from the ancient Greek language. No one has an idea about the pronouncation and even vowel points in Greek were set up by Dutch Erasmus. When the "New Greece" was founded there were nothing cultural and everything were taken by Anatolian immigrants in 1923 who were also labelled as "Turks" by Greeks. Ethnologic maps are also the proof of the Slavo-Albanian roots of the Modern Greek people except for the Anatolian immigrants.
I've explained Cyprus. Dodecanese people are of Latin race and even "Rhodes Autonomists" offered help to Turkey for liberation in 1974. "Cretan Liberation Committee" is also working for the Crete's liberation. Corfu wants independence. "Macedonian Human Rights Movement for Human and National Rights for the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia" formally declared to fight with Greece. Anatolian "Romans" are already descendants of the Ancient people of Anatolia who were Hellenized during Byzantine rule and they believe that Greeks had stolen their civilization. In brief, Greece is only a geographical name just like Italy. As for Turks, there is not a pure Turkic race anywhere in the world. They had already been viewed as "Turkish" in Greece as well. Except for the Armenians, there were about 2,500,000 - 3,000,000 people in Anatolia(and 2,5 million Albanians, Slavs, Vlachs...etc. in Greece) and about 1,500,000 - 2,000,000 of them adopted Islam under Turkish rule. Nearly 1,000,000 - 1,500,000 Turkic people had immigrated to Anatolia and mixed up with those people. So nearly half of the ethnic Turkish people are directly or indirectly related with the Turanic people(this percentage is also the same in Central Asia and rest of them are Mongolian and Chinese). Counting 200,000 Turks also adopted Orthodoxy, except for the immigrations during the Byzantine era, those 1,5 million Orthodox people who left for Greece in 1923 are the same with modern Turkish people, but not with Albanian Greeks(Albanians were as populated as Serbs and Bulgarians once). That's why you're similar to us. For sure neither Greek, nor Turkish chauvinists admit that. But fact is fact.
Phanariotes were the wealthiest class of Greek citizens because community of Istanbul were the most prosperous people on the earth regarding capital of the world. World's richest Armenians used to live in Istanbul as well (where is California now) and owners of the ten millions of dollars mansions in Bosphorus are still the old Turkish community of Istanbul. Being from Istanbul was also a nobility among Jews and the city was called as "Tsargrad(Emperor-City)" among Slavs. Even Istanbul's GNI was higher than the richest province of the Ottoman Empire, Egypt. Regarding as Phanariotes were the wealthiest class of Greek citizens, they had strong ties and been brought up in the shadow of extreme Byzantine-Orthodox-Patriarchy. Romanians were one of the largest nations who were seperated among Ottoman Empire, Austria and Russia. By the end of the Turkish - Holy-League wars in 1699, stagnation period has started for the Ottoman Empire. Turkish population didn't even make %10 of the total population and Christians made up half of the Empire. That there is no distinction among Orthodox nations used to set off the danger of the Byzantine Empire's revival by the European Holy League against Turks. Do you know anything called "political-artist"? Konstantin Kantemir was the King of Moldavia and when his son Dimitri Kantemiroglu had grown up, he had taken to Istanbul for artistic studies. Instead of him, Nicholas Mavrocordatos was assigned to principality and this custom of "Phanariote assignment" to Moldavia and Wallachia hadn't changed during the 18th century. They were especially required to introduce Greek traditions which later caused the idea of founding a "Greater Romania" from Carpathians to BlackSea and Danube with regard to ethnic, linguistic and cultural union by the Romanian intellectuals with the leadership of Dimitri Kantemiroglu. Then French missionaires were allowed to Romanian schools by 1776 and started to cooperate with Greek governors. Having been seen that "Orthodox" Greeks were cooperating with Frankish missionaires, they decided to get separated and found their own church which inflamed the Romanian national awakening. The same was put into practice in Bulgaria sending Bulgarian intellectuals to Kiev where people started to view themselves distinct from Russians as well as assigning radical Phanariote priests who used to ban Slavic languages and impose Greek language.
Turkish was one of the most required languages of the world and even some rich Europeans used to send their children to Turkish universities. Moreover, Genoese merchants were fluent in Turkish and Jews used to speak Spanish fluently. All the Ottoman aristocracy used to speak Arabic and Persian as well as French in the later ages. Even Mehmet II used to speak 9 languages. There were also many European immigrants but "Rums" used to recognize Ottoman manners well and they were classified as "Eastern-Orthodox Citizens of The Ottoman Empire", not foreigners. However they had started to become active only in the decline period of the Ottoman Empire. Taxation was ruled by Defterdars and non-Muslims had to pay %20 unlike %10 rate of Muslims.
Greece is the most criticized nation in even "double-standard" EU about human rights no question. As I've said repeatedly it had been active once. A lot of private upper schools "mushroomed" in commercial buildings such as "journalism" and "pharmacy" and people used to get diplomas here. This sector reached a peak. It had already been cited in constitutional provision that "Universities are To Founded by The Government" and then constitutional court has agreed to shut down all those schools together with all the private schools including "Heybeliada clerical School" because it was also private. Probably none of whom in decision were aware of that school all along. Then Greece has turned it into political symbol which is also forbidden. What's more no one has such a demand. Eastern Slavs look so down on Greek-Orthodoxy. Maybe some recent Western European or Latin American Orthodox come and even I can't imagine eventual fightings there. Athens had a muslim population and there had never been any churches. I wonder what would happed to Turkish mosques if by any chance Greece captured Istanbul. Official language of Turkey is Turkish. Nancy Pelosi would not allowed to make a speech in Italian also in United States. Most Kurds live in Western provinces and if they don't view Turkey as their country, they are immigrants in Turkish cities so they have to speak Turkish in official places. Azeris in Iran have no problem with speaking Persian although they are the majority. Turkey does NOT arrest anyone who speaks Slavic at home as Greece does.
Kuranic verses are usually changed by Western services such as "Kill them if they don't become Muslim!" which doesn't exist in fact for sure and imposed on people by their agents. For example, Khomeini was supported by France and Soviets againts pro-American Shah and Osama bin Laden was supported by US against Soviets and so on. It is usually taken basically and interpreted wrongly. Idolatry doesn't mean only to worship of any image or object. That "Idol" can be anything such as money, business, position, fame, beauty, yourself, someone you love and so on. The sin finally causes pain and when some people lose one of those, they feel heavily pain(temporary hellish torture) and even usually commit a suicide. Instead, they should head towards God and wish something favourable handing over the God's best choice as true Muslims do.
Egypt never annexed the Gaza Strip, but instead treated it as a controlled territory and administered it through a military governor against Jewish pressure. It doesn't make so much sense however considering they're all Muslim Arabs as also Israelis view in fact. It has been forgotten too quickly that Israel removed all the Jews from Gaza Strip in 2005. I'd just told in those days what would happen. This operation was planned all along. What a coincidence that it came across new year rush. There are many massacres in Israel's history and Palestine has not been developed since 60s. King Hussein of Jordan is a Western puppet. Palestinians make %50 of Jordan while even Jordanians don't make %20. The foundation of Israel caused Jews to leave Arabic countries. Hamas was created by US and Israel in 1987 so that it would create a threat for secular Fatah. It has already been mentioned by Israeli authorities that they need the nationalism of which such terror events cause. Greece is a geographical name and it cannot claim anywhere even if it's considered as Byzantine leftover. Turks captured everywhere with their own power and never forced anyone to leave or confiscated. Mecca is only holy for Muslims and nobody has been kicked out and it was not occupied. Jerusalem is not only holy for Jews, but both Muslims and Christians as well. Kabaa is a worship place for thousands and I think that women still can't set foot in Mount Athos is thought provoking. The fact that once Greeks had fled almost everywhere in the world by reason of a poor nature doesn't make anywhere Greek. Even Jeddah holds a place in the "Arabian" geography. Well, Orthodox-Jews also believed that the Israel would only be rebuilt under the guidance of the Messiah but nobody cares about the canon laws when it comes to the politics. It is called crime of ravish to seize anyone's right.
The whole Israel has a smaller area than even Ankara province but "Baha'i World Centre" is as large as almost "Anitkabir" for only 700 Baha'i people. It doesn't sound frankly at all. Ecumenopolis is possible for nations like where 500 people live per km2.
No religion commands badness in fact but they are bastardized by people as Judaism or Christianty and tried in Islam as well. Caliph was something "political" used by Ottoman Turkish government towards non-Turkish Muslims and doesn't exist in Islam in fact. Even there are no preists, rabbis or imams and fatwas don't exist in Islam. They are all bastardized rubbish and Islam is an individual religion. In Turkey, Imams are only asked some nuances such as "if this breaks my fast" and so on...AND they were all cited in the holy book, not my personal script.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Sep 12, 2009 4:34 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Sep 12, 2009 3:30 PM
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If that were the case then Jews WOULD have missionaries and would be telling everyone to follow Judaism or expect some consequence. But there is a reason why Jews, Buddhists, Bahai, Zoroastrianism (and some others) DON'T have missionaries or Dawa, it's because these religions subscribe that EVERYONE will be judged according to their DEEDS not BELIEFS, therefor the subject is simply not an issue for them. For other religions missionaries/dawa is a FUNDAMENTAL part of their practice because the focus is centered around the idea that one must follow THAT BELIEF SYSTEM ONLY or be damned; Jews reject that notion seeing it as vile and cruel. Really? so I guess "Muslims" are now a race because they forbid Women from marrying non-Muslims in some countries in a VERY strict manner, there is no enforcement for Jewish cerimonial laws so who is going to tell you no? Every religion has its dialects and lingustics, if you take all the Muslims of the world how many languages will that cover in all, far more than Arabic. And why stop at Yiddish? Russian-Jews speak Russian, Greek-Jews traditionally speak Yevanic, Arab-Jews speak Arabic, Persian-Jews speak Farsi, and Han Chinese-Jews (Kaifeng) speak Mandarin and so on. And how many dialects of Arabic exist in the world? does this now challenge Islam as a religion according to your logic?. Kurdish meanwhile is the second biggest language and minority group in Turkey and STILL it's not recognized officially and Kurds only recently have been allowed to speak it in public and restrictions on giving their children Kurdish names are still imposed. Israel meanwhile has Arabic Universities and Arabic is an official language and is used fully in public life. And YOU don't know any of this, are you God?, or do you command God and can pre-determine everything for everyone? It's not up to YOU to decide credibility of other peoples religions just because they may not agree with YOUR feelings. 1. Your not qualified to talk about it. 2. Your only qualified to believe what you like. 3. It's none of your business.
Incorrect, Jews had to follow the rules of Non-Jewish nations and people while living there and doing business with them, and by the method of that person. Ancient Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Persia, 31 Canaanite tribes, and others ALL had fixed interest rates, therefore Jews had to pay interest when living or working in other nations and follow the regulations of anyone they worked with. If a nation required or banned interest then Jews there had to follow it, because simply THAT'S THE LAW.
Many Jews are not of the Hebrew race, and the majority of Muslims are not Arabs, so what's the point and who cares? Incorrect again, there are no credible institutions of higher learning or credible sources who advocate that theory, that would also mean that Roman histroy itself is false (according to YOU), Greeks played one of the largest roles in Roman politics (had numerous senate positions), and had a sort of legal autonomy as non-Greeks could not participate in the Olympic games during the entire Roman era. Greeks had among the largest role in the economy as chief merchants and traders, it was rare to find even a non-Greek merchant in the Roman Empire who did not speak at least some Greek. Not to mention the massive impact Greeks had on the Roman Empire as Greek architecture, religion, culture, and theories ALL became adopted by Rome. The Christian New Testament (if one takes it as a potential HISTORY source) not only spoke about Greeks in Judah conversing with Jesus (hinting that Jesus himself knew Greek) but also was WRITTEN in Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic (but not Latin) as his students (all Jews themselves) used both the local and the most influencial language of the Roman Empire. Slavs arrived much later during the Byzantine Empire which by that time was already proclaimed as part of the Hellenistic world. What your preaching was drafted by FYROMian nationalist parties to erase Greek history in Macedonia, but why won't one find this preached in any institution of higher learning ANYWHERE? The Modern Turkish language and grammer itself was only created in the 20's does this mean that Turkish people only existed since then?
"Dodecanese people are of Latin race"
Latin is not a race it's a language, and incorrect, look up any census until 1947 the region was overwhelmingly Greek although Italian victroy over Turkey managed to aquire the islands but even that still failed to stop the Islands and its people from moving closer towards Greece.
"Rhodes Autonomists" offered help to Turkey for liberation in 1974"
lol, ya go to Rhodes and repeat this exact sentence; see what responce you'll get.
"Cretan Liberation Committee is also working for the Crete's liberation"
I think your a bit behind the times, because that already occured back in 1898.
"Corfu wants independence"
False. There WAS a small group of people in Corfu (a dozen or so) who wanted to start a party advocating for local mayors to be allowed to distributed federal funding themselves and not through federal groups. This party though in the end never even formed as they couldn't even get a few signatures to register for local party status. Besides groups such as these are usually just scams to rip off local party financing grants. There are hundreds of "parties" who MANAGE to get resigstered but NEVER run in any elections, never promote themselves, and only exist on paper to scam off party financing benefits.
"Macedonian Human Rights Movement for Human and National Rights for the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia" formally declared to fight with Greece"
Oh, you mean FYROMians from FYROM who live OUTSIDE of Greece and can't even get Slavic speaking minority groups in Greece to support them? They can declare all they want but if they can't even get the people who they are "defending" to support them (this includes Slavs from Greece who live abroad) then it's just smoke and mirrors. All this is simply not an issue in Greece since as you see there is no armed inner minority conflicts that you see in other countires like Turkey and the PKK. Incorrect. Greek tribes have been recorded from ancient documentation in the Anatolian area for thousands of years, and more after. How would the Byzantines do that if your arguing that Greeks don't exist? Pontians had their own state in the late Byzantine period and just a study of their culture shows the links with the Chaldia settlements along the Black Sea. Many Pontic Greeks lived in the Ukraine and USSR and now have almost entirely immigrated to Greece. If they were just Christian convert Turks then how and why would they speak a heavy Chaldia dialect of Greek instead of just Biblical-Greek (which is the formal language of Orthodox Christians) and FULL Turkish. Ancient dialects weren't taught mainstream since Biblical-Greek dominated the scene but due to the remotness of the area it remains one of the few tribes who've somewhat preserved an ancient link lingusticly. Regardless I'd rather take the word from Ponian-Greeks who as a community have never claimed seperate ethniticities.
OF course, but also Phanariotes were the wealthiest of Ottoman citizens. The economic, political, and administrative ownership/management positions of Greeks, Jews, and Armenians. Doubt it, Arabic (as was the writting style for Turkish at the time) was not significant enough at the time especially in Europe. English, French, and German were the dominant languages in the world economy, education, and politics. Peter the Great went on to adopt French-German-Dutch customs for Russia and most western tutors taught the children of noble families at least one of these languges if not all. For the Ottoman citizens, Greeks viewed Turkish as a working class language as they were the predominant employees in their businesses. Greeks being active in the world trade for thousands of years understood most languges and became the most bilingual of Ottoman citizens toped with high literacy (something among the the minorty in those times). It's no wonder why the Ottoman Empire became a sick man and faded away after persecution of the remaining Greek population after independence war in southern Greece.
Incorrect again, Greece is officially recognized by all international institutions and organizations as a "FULL Democracy" which is strictly ruled by constitutional law. "No question" and how are YOU qualified to make that statement have YOU ever been to Greece?, do you know how Greek political institutions work?, or the nature of lingustic/ethnic backgrounds in Greece?. Inocrrect all the Orthodox Priests and many Greek students of high learning in Turkey were trained there. What's more Turkey has numerous clerical schools for Muslims and has private schools, Greece has provided clerical and Arabic (Quranic) schools even when it was under no obligation to do so. Greece could have just hired abroad clerics but instead insisted on community self-sufficientcy, these are the reasons why tthe Muslims community in Thrace has grown while Istanbul-Greeks have immigrated to Greece because of past economic and social persecution. Actually there are alot of non-Greek Orthodox students and clerics who come to study in Greece, which is also why there are many Latin American, Slavic, and African Orthodox people who are moving to Greek monestaries. Wrong, there were so many Churches forcefully converted into Mosques including the Parthenon itself, which is why the inside of most older Churches in Athens are very worn because the mosaics were covered and torn off. Although there are numerous Mosques built as Mosques which are still all over Greece and upkept. Why would you expect any different if Istanbul remained a Greek city? Because Kurdish is a widepsread language in Turkey and persecuting Kurdish puplicaly and privatly is wrong. In Israel Arabic is fully used in all sectors of society and in Greece different lingustics are preserved and promoted, schools in Thrace are just one example. Who told you that?
So now everything that you'v just said about what Westerners supposedly do to the Quran is EXACTLY the same what you just did with the Torah & Talmud. And if you thought that RadioIslam was qualified to tell anyone anything about Judaism, even going as far as to fabricating entire Jewish books (yes many of the BOOKS not just passages they quote from don't even exist) then how can you argue against a Westerner doing the same; in a sense you just legitimized their actions.
And that to you waters down the bottom line? In that case Israel NEVER annexed the Gaza Strip NOR the West Bank EVER, and handed over authority over to the PA. Under Egypt Nasser abolished the Palestinian government and tried to use Gaza as a pawn to help create his "United Arab Republic". Under the 1947 UN decree Israel fully accepted the Palestinian state as it was established. Jordon annexed the West Bank and East-Jerusalem making all the Palestinians into "Jordanians" overnight and forbade Jews and Christian from visiting Holy sites. So what if they were Arabs, Jordon and Egypt abolished the Palestinian state which Israel fully recognized. Israel is the only one who has done anything to restore the Palestinian state. Gaza in 2005 had a very progressing economy and the Israeli government and investors donated millions to expand its agricultural production so the Palestinians would have a stable economy to support themselves when Israel disengaged. Israel ceded control of the areas to the PA and local Palestinian officials, Gaza was the first step towards the final two state peace plan. The Palestinians wanted it and Israel COULD have argued to keep parts of Gaza as Jews lived in certain areas but decided out of the interests of long term peace to fully disengage. Unfortunatly the PA was not as stable as it claimed to be. Nearly 1 million Jews were violently forced out of Arab countires (Arab-Jews)which continues to this day, when will there be compensation for them? This is more of the same nonsense, show some responsible journalism, or wait! is it because some RadioIslam site said so? Well Greeks have some history and archeology that say otherwise, oh and the proper term is "Ellada" which context represents Greek histroy, Greek people, culture, and EVERYTHING that goes with it. So under YOUR argument Greece can claim everything up to India and Southern Russia which the Greek people at some time controlled for hundreds or even thousands of years.... obviously such a legal case today is nonsense but hey I'm just following your logic. Well hey, overlooking a couple of mass genocides there, massacures, and forced Janssariens, but besides that nothing but smooth sailing right? Muslim is a religion not ethniticity. So let's get this right: a Muslim from Indonesia who has never been to Saudi Arabia has MORE rights there than a non-Muslim who was born and lived in the Arabian Penninsula? Jeddah once hosted a prosperous Greek population and Arabian Jews for MUCH longer than Muslims, although Saudi Arabia does not allow any worship besides Islam anywhere. Incorrect, Women and Men LIVE in and around Mt Athos but Monestaries are gender based meaning Men worship in the Mens building and Women in the Womens building, although this is just about 20 Monasteries meanwhile all Abrahamic religions have some sort of gender division somwhere. oh and just to mention Non-Christians can travel and live on Mt Athos, in Mecca there are "Muslim only" highways to get into the city, everyone else "keep away". Israel allows ALL WORSHIP ANYWHERE, whether your Jewish, Muslim, or Christian. There are Synogogues, Churches, and Mosques including some of the most holiest in these religions and open for all. The only place with religion restrictions is the Temple Mount run by the Muslim administration which bans all non-Muslim religions. Greeks incidently have some of the most ancient communities anywhere, a small group of wealthy Greek settlers even established an entire Indo-Greek Kingdom (Afghanistan-Pakistan-India)and ruled it for hundreds of years. Why not? their generations were born there and lived, educated, and prospered... in terms of annexation to Greece it would be nonsense, but to the Greek history in general very rich. True and False, Israel in the religious term also means governed with the Israelite laws and with a Temple, meanwhile The State of Israel is very secular and no Temple can be built anyway. For Orthodox-Jews the State of Israel is not an Israelite nation which Jews believe will come following the Messiah. Although that certainly does not mean that Jews can't live and prosper there.
Exaclty, would Saudi Arabia or Turkey reserve a place that enourmous and expand it for a population so small? Perhaps not NOW, but who knows in the future, the world is only expanding taller and larger so who knows in 2000 years.
This is more of the same nonsense you spewed last time. And who decides the status of other religions without even knowing about those religions, you??? Unless you're trying to tell us you know what God has in mind. Or, that you're God. The Caliph has been around long before the Ottomans as a direct successor and could interpret and enforce laws through religion, and different Caliphs ruled differently meaning that they interpeted the same religious laws in a different way in their views which impacted everyone they ruled over. Imams, and Muftis, could all have different views but in the end it was the Caliphs view that prevailed. In Caliphs Uthmans case he headed the committee that compiled the text of the Quran as it exists today, and rejected all the other Quranic versions of the time. Yes there were other versions which Early Muslims followed which never made it into the final Quran (not a religious point but interesting to note).
In the end, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
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Then how on earth Jews derived from the every nation if they had no missionaries? Jews have never had any empires throughout history. Islam is not an ethnic religion and anyone can adopt Islam without any permission of any individual. East-European Jews used to speak Yiddish and that's the language of the Ashkenazic Jews who rule Israel. What about that Rojin the Kurdish singer in Turkey? You could find lots of people with Kurdish names in Turkey if you had looked up a bit. Even most Turkish people do not use "Turkish" names. Both Turks and Kurds are Muslims and Muslims should use a Muslim name from "Kuran" according to the religion. Considering most Kurds are religious and tradition of grandparents' name to be given, it's not surprising that they don't have Kurdish names. What's more even Jews in Turkey use Turkish names. There are a lot of ethnic groups in Turkey and official language of Turkey is Turkish. Moreover %85 of Kurdish population in the Western Anatolia don't think to go back where they came from. I advise you to watch TRT-6(shesh), Turkish public channel which broadcasts in Kurdish language although there are tens of ethnic groups in Turkey. Yet, %60 of Kurdish population doesn't speak Kurdish and %77,2 of Kurds find Kurdish channels unnecessary. They have already been speaking their own language. You had better keen on Greece who bans speaking any other language outside the home. However even Kurds don't have a language. Roots of Words in Kurdish Language: 3.080 Turkish, 2.230 Persian + 370 Pahlavi Persian, 2.000 Arabic, 220 Armenian, 108 Chaldean, 60 Circassian, 20 Georgian, and 300 unverified.
Now I see why Visa or Mastercard interest rates directly go to Jewish accounts.
Sumerian had also been used as a science language in the fertile crescent for decades. It doesn't make any sense ethnically at this point. Greek speaking people in Balkans and Peloponessia didn't send help to Constantinople against Turkish invasion for the sake of example.
That's the typical western propaganda. Then how on earth many Greeks and Armenians still speak Turkish, but not Ottoman formal language? Arabs who entered with Ottoman passports are still called "El-Turco" in Venezuela and even ex-Ottoman citizen Armenians and Jews are also called Turkish in Argentina.
I said relying on their relation with the ethnic people who speak Latin languages. Italy has left Dodecanese for Greece as a war indemnity, it's not even result of a resistence. It's obviously known that inhabitants of Aegean Islands are not pleased with the Greek government. Even they have been getting more closer with Turkey than the mainland Greece economically, especially on household goods which are very cheap at Turkish side.
Because Greece is not neighbouring with an instable country like Iraq who is still in warfare and Macedonian Slavs are not being armed by the entire Western World, AND, no country else but Greece is a terror exporter in the region. Such a situation would already be the end of Greece because it has costed more than $300 B for Turkey, which was much higher than even Greek national income. One may ask why Turkey doesn't use all those chances for sure. Because Greece would completely turn into Guantanamo against Turkey in case of a seperation.
Karaman people, who were %100 Turkic but Eastern-Orthodox, has also used Greek alphabet. English has also become the language of Ashkenazic Jews instead of Yiddish. The spoken language doesn't make any sense at this point. I said Turkish language, not Arabic writing style (considering world's low literacy rate). I am speaking of the period until 19th century, not later. So English, French, and German were the serf languages. Turkish was the language of the military and army so that's one of the reasons of the army's position in Turkey. Almost only Turks had been active in bureaucracy and politics, Greeks never in general.
Wealthy Anatolian Orthodox people who started to get rich significantly in the last century used to import Greeks from Greece for their businesses during the 19th century. Ottoman Empire became a sick man as a result of new trade routes, bad rulers, growing nationalism and so on. Most people on the earth live for becoming rich by easy way, so there were a lot of options instead of Eastern-Orthodox people, what's more even most of them weren't allowed to army. It doesn't make any sense at this point because they had lost everything they had owned and beating all the central powers only in 3 years, Turkey has captured 6 times bigger of which Greece could capture in 100 years in spite of a world support. Right after Greece had already been shared with Germany, Italy and Bulgaria.
We've recently seen a great example of democracy from Greece. Athens had a Muslim population and there had never been any churches. Even the crusader army which were sent to protect the Constantinople, riped the golden cross at the top of the Hagia Sofia, melted down and sold it while it was a crime to rip even a mosaic piece in the Ottoman Empire. Greece is the most criticized nation in even "double-standard" EU about human rights no question. Athens is the only European capital where even a single mosque is not allowed.
So you had better read some statements of rabbis about gentiles.
Israel occupied many of the Palestianian territories as well as Jerusalem and violated it's "internationally administered area" status in 1948. A little poor Palestinian state is good for Israel, rather than a strong United Arabic Republic. Except for Turkey, Iran and Egypt, all the countries' borders in Middle East were created by Colonial European States, so it doesn't make any sense. They're 400 million Arabs to deal with in case of an unification. They were only Jews who left for Israel but when will there be a compensation for 5 million Palestinians as well as people of Golan and Litani River who were forced out by Jews? Even Israel gets all the groundwater and nothing left for the Palestinians. There are no non-Muslims in Hejaz. Considering only Al-Aqsa Mosque was tried to bomb 7 times by Jews, it'd better Saudi Arabia does not allow any worship besides Islam. So-called Indo-Greek kingdom was just the leftover of the Macedonian Empire which was founded on a small mountainous area. So what? Turks had ruled the entire Southern Asia for centuries and even some Indian people requested help from the Ottoman Empire against European colonizers. But it was failed due to ongoing sea-battles against the European League and Ottoman battleships were not suitable for the Oceans, and Indians didn't help as required. Israeli laws are based on canon laws so secularity of some people doesn't make any sense at this point. Great, so it would be better for everyone if Israel was founded somewhere in South Argentina. Nobody had already interfered with Mizrahi Jews.
Of course not, because neither Turkey, nor Saudi Arabia allows a place which evokes "Dome of Rock" on the "Hanging Gardens of Babylon" which of two and the lands between them were required to capture in Jewish old testament (Babylonian Empire as Greater Israel and in the center, Jerusalem as capital city, where holds Dome of Rock which should be collapsed).
Caliphs had just an ordinary life in Egypt(where was also under Turkish rule apart from Ottomans, Mamelukes) until 16th century and they had re-gained their power by Ottoman Invasion. The Caliph had taken to Istanbul from Cairo and it was something "political" used by Ottoman Turkish government towards non-Turkish Muslims and doesn't exist in Islam in fact. No Muslim country run after them now.
As I've said a million times, they were all cited in the holy book, NOT my personal script. You're free to take it or leave it.
This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 18, 2009 8:43 AM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 18, 2009 8:40 AM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 17, 2009 3:43 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 17, 2009 3:39 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 17, 2009 3:37 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 17, 2009 3:29 PM This message has been edited by KanuniSS on Oct 17, 2009 11:49 AM
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