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Cro-Magnon superiority

May 26 2003 at 9:24 AM
anon  (Login x956)
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Itzkoff, Seymour W.
The Intelligence Divide: A Contemplative Survey of Human History
Mankind Quarterly, Fall2002, Vol. 43 Issue 1

A Revolutionary Intelligence

Several millions of visitors have visited the ancient Paleolithic caves of France and Spain, where they have gazed in awe at the artistic achievements of the ancient Cro-Magnon hunters some 25,000 years ago. They have observed Lascaux and Altamira artistic renderings which in terms of skill ad esthetic realization are equal to anything that has since been created, albeit in a rough and ready world where hunter, artist, and citizen were probably encompassed by the same persons. At Cap Blanc they experienced a sculptured frieze of animals that could have been placed on the Parthenon wthout apologies. Indeed, within the Vatican, the dark confines of the Sistine Chapel realized the same conditions of mysterious sanctity that were evoked in the ancient caves, the flickering eixks that charred the undulating stone canvas. Without doubt that same mentation that characterized the artistic work of a Phidias in Athens or a MIchelangelo in Rome inspired these Cro-Magnon artists so many thousands of years earlier.

The abstract brain which created these evocations so many thousands of years apart was well in place in Eurasia at a remote period. But it was then unique on our planet, for there were many other people living on our earth, and in the same time frame, who lived much simpler and basic subsistence lives. This brain was a unique reation of evolutionary time. Perhaps it was a fluke that the explosion in size and structure occurred in the north. Their art and technology of a uniquely advanced form was characteristic of these people from the Urals to the Atlantic, from the southern boundaries of the glaciers to southern Europe and into the mid-East and western Asia. These high cognitive Homo sapiens sapiens genes gradually made their way into other goegraphies and other humans over timee, perhaps from c. 250,000 years ago when the brain revolution that revealed itself in the physical morphology and the ulture Cro-Magnons first appeared. In this way the human genus became one species as it was gradually lifeed over the brain Rubicon from H. erectus to sapiencey.

We ought not scoff at this presumptive intelligence, given the simple if beautiful tools, borers, scrapers, hand axes, spear and arrow heads, needles, combs, now made of bone, ivory, flint, precious stones, fabricated with excruciatingly careful and diligent care and perception. Primitive stuff, perhaps, compared to computers and atomic bombs. But remember, we do not judge the achievements of a people by what they have inherited. Rather, the test of any progress in civilization is made by the advances a people make over the previous generation. And these Cro-Magnons even compared to their indigenous competitors in Eur-Asia, the Neanderthals, they too having Caucasoid racial characteristics, but primitive in brow and bone, were way beyond the existing norms of human achievements, both material and cultural.

[. . .]

High Intelligence Creates Civilization

The great reversal in the movement of humans, north and south, began at the beginning of a period of continental climate changes, some 12,000 years ago. For the approximately 35,000 years before this change, the flourishing of the Cro-Magnon peoples in their Eur-Asian homeland, the climate was largely benign, if affected by the ever-presence of the glaciers. Students of the climate of this period believe that winters were largely autumnal in character, rarely venture far below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, but also staying cool in mid-day. The summers were spring-like, never rising beyond the fifties to low sixties, Fahrenheit. Eurasia then had a rich ecology that attracted myriad species of large mammals, including humans. The good times ended when a continental climate suddenly set in about 12,000 years ago. Now the summers were hot, the glaciers in retreat north, the winters cold and snowy, difficult for the huge foragers to browse beneath snow and frozen ground. The forests came back, the mammoths, saber-toothed tigers, giant sloths, all disapeared.

Image the cultural shock. Some hung on, the ancestors of the Europeans. Others wandered beyond the next mountain to see what they could find. The only comparison one can make with the impact that these events probably had on these people is the more recent fate of the Amero-Indians. They had thousands of additional years to genetically groove their migratory way of life. And they did engage in terrible burtal tribal wars. The America were also the setting for a happy, excitng, and fulfilling existence. There was little of the agricutlureal grindstone and its organizational specializations of urban life. When the EUropeans came to North America, this Amero-Indian happy-go-lucky hunting life came to an abrupt end. Several hundred years later, the excitements of subsistence hunting have been replaced by the urban glitter of the gambling casino.

The descendants of the Cro-Magnons on their way south were given several thousands of years of breathering room, to learn to adapt to the new way of life along the rivers, Tigris/Euphrates, Nile, Danube, Indus, and along the Mediterranean littoral. The same minds that quickly adjusted to the relatively mild and rich hunting ecology on the Eur-Asian plains, soon fabricated sickles to harvest the wild grains, cisterns to store the variable rains. In the north, hardly had their fossil bones appeared in the geological record, 45,000 B.P. then the art, the supple new technological devices, the rich decorative culture made itself known. It teaches us a lesson, that was should remember, smart people learn quickly. Far back in time, in the north, 45,000-25,000 years ago, they had figured out the technology of fire hardened pottery, even making chronometric markings, as modern hunters do, to record the number of nights between full moons. Civilization is complexity amidst the alomost constant change produced by talented igdividuals. These talents can show themselves as metallurgist, military and weaposn innovators, irrigation engineers, town planners and wall builders. Shamans and poets, musicians and jewelers, beauticians and cloths designers,were hardly in the rear. In the lands to the south of the frigid winters, along the rushing river banks, the sparkling shores of the Mediterranean, it all began. This was a world that attracted people, for the prosperity that beckoned. Riverine agriculture and herding, as well as some hunting, elephants still ran wild in Syria in Biblical times, Eighth century BCE, marked the change in their economic way of life.

At no time in this now pulsating urban setting was power so concentrated that any one group of military, political, or religious rulers, could stifle the natural, rhythmic flow of innovation. Highly intelligent civilizationally competent individuals in a now dynamic and complex urban social setting were stimulated to see ever new possibilities in the cultural web of meanings that surrounded him/her. Up north in the world of caves and hunting economy, the simplicity and seeming permanance of this tough yet idyllic life, art and technology were infused with timeless rhythms. Changes and progress, yes, but slower. In the south with so many different professions, occupations, crafts, the inputs from all directions, up and down the streets and alleys of the new towns, the humming stimulus was messaging the ready mind.

[. . .]

The power of the north lies in the same aggressive intelligence that produce the Sumerian writing system, the Old Testament, Euripides. Simply, it was the intelligence of the north that successfully expanded its reach, militarily, politically, and always genetically. In the book of unexpected outcomes, the losers were usually benefited by the fact that the victors loaned them a goodly amount of their victorious genes. In this way the peoples of the world gradually came closer to the norms of brain size and cultural competency that the revolutionary Cro-Magnons had first established for humankind.

[. . .]

The Mysterious Far East

[. . .]

Towards the end of the Ice Ages, c.50,000 years ago, there seems to have started a push south, of Mongoloids, who gradually interbred with the Australid ethnicities and created the various Malaysian, Indonesian, Philippine, ethnicities. Indeed, there was at the same time a probable move eastward of Caucasoid types, Cro-Magnon and Cro-Magnon/Neanderthaloid hybrid people. Possibly, even the continebtal Australian and Papuan New Gunea aboriginal people could have absorbed small doses of foreign Eur-Asian genes.

[. . .]

The Amero-Indians crossed Central Asia to migrate over Beringia, the land bridge to the America, before the end of the Ice Ages, c. 15,000 B.P. They probably started their wanderings as Caucasoids utilizing a Cro-Magnon-like technology - bow and arrows, spears. They encountered resident Mongoloid and northern Australid peoples, absorbing their genes as they moved ease. The very diversity of the Amero-Indian peoples argues that these many groups at first were small in numbers, bands or small tribes.

[. . .]

In this way the resident Mongoloid/Australid populations were well enfiladed with foreign genetic elements. It is fair today to say that most contemporary Mongoloid peoples are tri-racial hybrids. We have evidence of Germanic/Celtic like peoples advancing to the eastern borders, Tarim Basin, of Xinjian Province in China, at a date of about 2000 BCE. The Indo-European dialect Tokharian was spoken in this province until about 900 CE, when Turkic people moved into this area, then later, Han Chinese. The Chinese mythic histories have always recognized that their formation as a people involved the intermixing of light haired blue/green eyed people from the West, with the resident black haired people of the south, e.g. the Yangtze and beyond, as in the Pazyryk graves.

If one travels to the Yellow River valley capital of ancient imperial China, Xian, one will find the museum of the terra-cotta soldiers. This was the then-resident ermperor's humanitarian means to insure his safety and comfort in death, attended by his horse-riding soldiers. The date is 300-200 BCE. Long before, c. 2000-1500 BCE the first Chinese Dynasty, the Shang set itself up in this Yellow River area. These invaders from the west arrived with Indo-European style chariots. They brought literacy to China. Some scholars see the evolution of Chinese orthography, the written form of the language, as having and odd similarity to certain early West Eurasian forms of writing, including possibly even the 'later' Nordic runes. The above-noted fair Caucasoid wanderers were in the east central Eurasian area at roughly the same early period.

The terra-cotta soldiers of Xian, 300-200 BCE were defenders of a dynast which could then trace its history back 1500 years, to the literate Shang. Today, the contemporary Han Chinese rulters of Xian flatly agree that these soldiers were not Han. They were taller, 5'10", in height with a definitely hybrid physiognomy, very similar to contemporary Kazaks, a mixture of Mongoloid/Caucasoid genetics. SOme of these genes subsequently, post-"Chu," 200 BCE, made their way south in China.

Consider the Japanese and Koreans. Both ethnicities arrived at about the same time in their respective lands interestingly also, c.300-200 BCE. They probably traveled a more northern route across Siberia and Mongolia, and thus could have avoided the warriors of Xian. The Koreans might be described as the "Japanese who stayed home." They both speak a language related to the Uralic/Altaic group, to Finnish, Hungarian, and the Turkic languages of Central Asia. To my mind they undoubtedly begain their overland journey to the East as Caucasoids, picking up Mongoloid genetic elements as they traveled, fought, and ultimately triumphed. As with the Xian Chinese, the Koreans/Japanese found a Malayo-Polynesian type peoples in the lands of ultimate destiny. They subdued these indigenous peole, interbred with them to form their contemporary ethnic profile. The Japanese and Koreans, was with the Chinese, are also a tri-racial hybrid people.

Conclusion

High human intelligence was a hard-earned gift, after much death and suffering. It was created as a product of a struggle with Mother Nature. First it was concentrated in the survivors of the northern glaciers, people of bleached skin, light-colored hair, and often blue-green eyes. High cortical, abstract intelligence is focused in our genetics. This biochemistry was/is not fundamentally incompatible with humans of other colorations then living in softer southern climes.

 
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Melnorme
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Is this a new wave? 'UP Supremacy'? - nt

May 26 2003, 9:28 AM 

nt

 
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anon
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Paleo-Caucasoid Component in the Gene Pools of Altai–Sayan Ethnic Groups

May 26 2003, 11:02 AM 

Polymorphism of the Y-Chromosome Diallelic Loci in Ethnic Groups of the Altai–Sayan Region. Russian Journal of Genetics, Vol. 38, No. 3, 2002, pp. 309–314. Translated from Genetika, Vol. 38, No. 3, 2002, pp. 393–399.

Paleo-Caucasoid Component in the Gene Pools of Altai–Sayan Ethnic Groups

The 92R7-T allele is the marker defining a group of male lineages widely distributed among the population of Eurasia and indigenous populations of America. Recent studies on Y-chromosome lineage diversity in different populations of the world showed that the 92R7-T-derived haplotypes represent the ancient paleo-Caucasoid component, which by its origin is associated with the population of Central Eurasia [10]. High frequencies of the most ancient haplotype, defined by the 92R7-T/SRY1532-G allele combination (haplotype 4 in the present study, haplotype 1C in [11], haplotype HG1 in [12], and haplotype 10 in [10]), were observed in the populations from different geographic areas, namely, India (21.7%), Europe (37%), Ireland (98.5%, nearly fixation level), Western Siberia, including Kets (83.3%) and Sel’kups (76.2%), and also in the indigenous populations of America (35.2%) [10–12]. One of the derivatives of this central haplotype is defined by an additional mutation in the DYS199 locus (variant DYS199-T), which was found only among the indigenous populations of America [11, 18, 22]. Another haplotype was defined by the 92R7-T/SRY1532-A allele combination (haplotype 5 in the present study, haplotype 1D in [11], haplotype HG3 in [12], and haplotype 32 in [10]). It was practically absent from the populations of Africa, Eastern Asia, and America. At the same time, high frequencies of this haplotype were observed in the populations of Central and Eastern Europe (up to 50% in Russians, Poles, and Slovaks), Southeastern Asia (up to 32% in the populations of India, Pakistan, and Iran), and Altai (55%) [10–12, 23]. This wide distribution of Y-specific 92R7-T haplotypes can be explained by ancient migrations from Central Eurasia to Europe and America, and also by relatively recent (about 7.5 thousand years ago) migrations of the representatives of the mound culture from the Central Asia to the Indian subcontinent, Europe, and Siberia [10, 12, 23].

 
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anon
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More genetic evidence

May 26 2003, 11:11 AM 

"Chinese scientists have measured these various gene frequencies across
the modern populations of their country and these measurements provide
the basis for estimating the contribution of various Caucasoid-related
genes to the four minority groups in which we find them. Among the
Uyghurs, 'Caucasian genes' have been estimated at as much as 54 per cent
while the Kazakhs, who also occupy parts of Xinjiang, reveal about 34
per cent. To the east in Gansu we find the Dongxiangs with 25 percent
and still farther east in Ningxia are the Hui whose Caucasian admixture
is set at about 11-14 per cent
. From these figures, the trajectory of
Caucasian genetic influence in East Central Asia and East Asia seems
quite clear: it originates in the west and diminishes toward the east."

p. 250, THE TARIM MUMMIES, ANCIENT CHINA AND THE
MYSTERY OF THE EARLIEST PEOPLES FROM THE WEST, by J.P. Mallory and
Victor H. Mair. New York, Thames and Hudson, 2000

As quoted here:



From: bagopian@w...
Date: Sun May 25, 2003 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [north-euro-anthro] Re: Ainu




The Ainu

Someone made a statement that the Ainu have been found "by modern
genetic studies" to be Mongoloid and not Caucasoid. This is the liberal
dogma which is in vogue in the academic community today. It is expressed
in Luca Cavalli-Sforza's HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY OF HUMAN GENES. However,
in the same book he also says that the northern Chinese are more closely
related to Europeans than they are to the southern Chinese! His methods
are faulty.

Actually, studies of nuclear DNA, mitochondrial DNA, Y-chromosomes,
HLA proteins, blood proteins, blood types, finger whorls, and physical
anthropology have all shown a connection between the Ainu and Europeans.
These can be found in the archives of the forums below.

The archaeological record shows that Caucasoids or semi-Caucasoids
spread Upper Paleolithic from Russia to Siberia. Then, they migrated to
northern China, Japan, and North America. This is the origin of the
light hair, fair skin, light eyes and Caucasoid features that were once
found among the Ainu, some Siberian peoples, and among the mummies of
North America such as the red-haired Spirit Cave Man or the Caucasoid
Kennewick Man.

Linguistic evidence also confirms this. Ainu is a member of the
Eurasiatic or Nostratic Macrofamily, which includes languages spoken by
Caucasoids such as the Indo-European Family and the Uralic Family.



Caucasoid Genes in Modern China

It has long been known among scholars that Caucasoids played a role in
the founding of Chinese civilization, and in a number of later periods,
including the Manchu Dynasty (1644-1911). Skeletons, art works, and
written descriptions all indicate that white people with red hair and
blue eyes lived at various times to the west and north of Chinese
civilization and often interacted with it. A comprehensive book on this
subject is EARLY EMPIRES OF CENTRAL ASIA, by McGovern. Much information
can also be found in the archives of the Ancient Nordics forum.
Many people have heard of the discovery of blond mummies in Xinjiang,
the northwestern part of China. Genetic studies of modern peoples have
also found Caucasoid genes a thousand miles further east, in the
vicinity of where Chinese Civilization first arose, between the Wei and
the Huang rivers. (Or, if you like, between the Wei Ho and the Huang
Ho.)
This is a quotation from 250 of THE TARIM MUMMIES, ANCIENT CHINA AND THE
MYSTERY OF THE EARLIEST PEOPLES FROM THE WEST, by J.P. Mallory and
Victor H. Mair. New York, Thames and Hudson, 2000:
"Chinese scientists have measured these various gene frequencies across
the modern populations of their country and these measurements provide
the basis for estimating the contribution of various Caucasoid-related
genes to the four minority groups in which we find them. Among the
Uyghurs, 'Caucasian genes' have been estimated at as much as 54 per cent
while the Kazakhs, who also occupy parts of Xinjiang, reveal about 34
per cent. To the east in Gansu we find the Dongxiangs with 25 percent
and still farther east in Ningxia are the Hui whose Caucasian admixture
is set at about 11-14 per cent. From these figures, the trajectory of
Caucasian genetic influence in East Central Asia and East Asia seems
quite clear: it originates in the west and diminishes toward the east."
Gansu was the area where a type of painted pottery appeared around 3000
BC which was similar to pottery found in Tripolye in the western Ukraine
and Anau in Turkmenistan. Gansu was also the area of origin of the
second dynasty, the Jou.
The authors of this book are evidently unaware of the
evidence of redheads and Caucasoids in ancient Mongolia and from the
last several centuries among native peoples of Manchuria and in Russia's
Maritime Province. Red hair, Caucasoid features and light eyes were also
found among the inhabitants Sakhalin Island ,the Kurilie Islands and
among the Ainu of northern Japan. Some of the Manchu, who conquered all
of East Asia in the 17th century, could have passed for Europeans. A
sculpture of a head, dating to around 3500 BC and found NORTHEAST of
Beijing, had Caucasoid features and blue stones for eyes. The sources
for these facts can be found in the archives of the Ancient Nordics
forum.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/truthseekers23
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nordichistory4
http://forums.delphiforums.com/biohistory
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Cavalli-Sforza's Book - Caucasoid Genes in Siberia and Alaska
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De: LARRY9198 12/05/2001 16:56 À: TOUS 1 de 1
310.1 Gothic is classified as East Germanic. Today, all living
Germanic languages are either West Germanic (like English, Dutch, and
German) or North Germanic (like Scandinavian). The Eastern branch is
extinct.
Curiously, early Indo-Europeans all used the dual form as well as the
singular and plural forms.
Dual forms were common among many ancient and prehistoric languages,
including Semitic and early Egyptian. For some reason, the dual form has
died out almost everywhere.
However, some modern languages still use the dual, including some
Aborigine languages and Eskimo.
Eskimo is a Nostratic language and is said to be related to
Indo-European.
Carleton Coon believed that Eskimo, Ainu, Yukaghirs, and Nivkhs were
once Caucasoids who still retain some Caucasoid traits. These Caucasoids
came east across Siberia from the Urals.
Let's look at the book LET'S LEARN ESKIMO.
house iglu
two houses igluk
houses iglut
Now, let's look at GRAMMAR OF THE GOTHIC LANGUAGE
I ik
we two wit
we (pl) weis
Eskimo
I uvanga
we two uvaguk
we (pl) uvagut
He ilaa
Those two ilingik
They ilingich
Joseph Greenberg discusses this in his INDO-EUROPEAN AND ITS CLOSEST
RELATIVES
Page 101: "The coincidence of the pattern "k - dual", "t - plural"
between Samoyed (Uralic) and Eskimo was already noticed by Rasmus Rask
in the early nineteenth century."
Page 102: "But there are also Uralic languages in which a dual "k"
contrasts with a plural "t".
Page 103: "Even Ravila (1941:7), who argues against a -k plural in
Hungarian and elsewhere, does not deny the existence of a Uralic dual -k
based on the evidence from Ob-Ugric and Samoyed."
"In the Amur dialect of Gilyak the first-person dual pronoun is me-gi,
which contrasts with the first person plural inclusive me-r."
Page 105: "A number of duals in -ki are attested in Sakhalin Ainu in
Dobrotvorskij (1875)."
"That 'sik' is dual is also confirmed by Voznesenskij's hitherto
unpublished vocabulary of Kurile Ainu in Vovin (1993). Here we find
ar-sik 'a single eye,' in which ar=ara 'one of a pair' (cf.
Proto-Indo-European *al-i 'other,' Greek allos, Latin alius). thus
ar-sik means 'one of a pair of eyes.'"
"This suggests that the -k dual, which, as we have seen, takes the form
-ki in a number of languages, is to be identified with Turkish iki 'two'
and Yukaghir ki 'two'....Perhaps Hungarian ket 'two' and other related
forms in Uralic also belong here."
In THE LIVING RACES OF MAN, Carelton Coon has this to say about Ainus,
Gilyaks, and Eskimos:
Page 151: "Today the indications are that they were originally
Caucasoid, for the following reasons. The Ainu fingerprints show more
loops than whorls. This is a Caucasoid characteristic. Both among
Mongoloids and among Australoids whorls exceed loops. The Ainu have an
incidence of 63 percent of sticky earwax. Sticky earwax is
characteristic of Caucasoids; crumbly earwax of Mongoloids. The upper
incisor teeth of the Ainu, although they are shoveled in one third of
the individuals studied, do not show the extreme forms of shoveling seem
among most Mongoloids, but are rather like the moderately shoveled teeth
found occasionally in Northern Europe. Among the Ainu, upper molar teeth
have pearl-like excrescences of enamel along the outer gingival border
in 30 percent of the individuals studied. Three percent of Japanese
skulls also show this. Enamel pearls are also found among the Eskimo and
among Northern Europeans, particularly the medieval Icelanders....The
dental pearls of the Ainu, however, cannot be so easily accounted for,
and imply a genetic continuity. It would seem as if after the
Pleistocene had ended this genetic trait was carried eastward along the
ridge of the Siberian forest from the Urals to the Amur River, rather
than having moved in the opposite direction. In this trait as in others,
it would appear that the Eskimo may have started out Caucasoid and ended
up Mongoloid, the opposite of the Ottoman Turks.
"Whatever one may say of the Eskimo, it now seems most likely that the
Ainu are of Caucasoid origin. The same must be true in part of the
Gilyaks, another heavily bearded people of Sakhalin and the Lower Amur
River valley. Old photographs of other Paleo-Asiatic-speaking tribesmen,
like the Yukaghirs, also show European-like features, including beards."
Page 154: "The Ainu and Gilyaks probably owe their Caucasoid appearance
to an ancient migration from eastern Siberia."
Cavalli-Sforza in his HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY OF HUMAN GENES, also takes
the view that Europeans, northeast Asians and Eskimos are related. He
believes that northern Mongoloids like the Japanese and northern Chinese
are more closely related to Europeans than they are to southern Chinese,
whom he groups with southeast Asians.
He obviously is confused. What the genetic data does show is evidence of
a prehistoric Caucasoid invasion that swept across northern Asia into
North America. Modern Arctic peoples are part Caucasoid, whereas
southeast Asians are part Australoid.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/paleolingo


Ancient human
Address:
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2001

Iberia, not Siberia?

Most people believe that Native Americans were Mongoloids who came over
a land bridge from Siberia. This is indeed a large part of their origin.
However, in recent years, there has been growing evidence of people from
other races and continents coming to the Americas in prehistoric times.
This is in addition to evidence of possible ancient migrations such as
from Phoenicia, Ireland, Scandinavia, and China.
Remains of racially Australoid people have been found in SOUTH America.
How on earth could they have gotten there? The most likely hypothesis
seems to be that they followed the Pacific coastline north to Beringia
and then came down the west coast to South America. A journey by boat
across the Pacific seems highly unlikely, but it is believed that
ancestors of Aborigines crossed 60 miles of open ocean 50,000 years ago
to come to Australia, so perhaps it's not impossible.
Next, there is evidence of prehistoric Caucasoid invasions coming from
two directions, Siberia and Europe! Most Native Americans speak
languages of the Amerindian Family, but some speak languages of the
Na-Dené Family, which is part of the Dené-Caucasian Macrofamily,
which includes Basque, Chechen, and Chinese. This would be the origin of
Caucasoid mummies, some with red hair, which have been found in western
Canada and the American northwest, in association with the Cascade
Culture of about 7,000 BC.
But, believe it or not, there is also evidence of yet another invasion,
from Europe. The earliest hunters of the North American plains are known
as Clovis. There is no evidence of them coming from Siberia, but they do
resemble the Solutrean of France! In addition, the oldest Clovis
artifacts are not from the northwest. They are from the Atlantic coast!
In fact, they are found on the continental shelf underwater in the
Atlantic Ocean. Underwater archaeologist Michael Faught hypothesized
they would be there. He went diving off the coast of Florida and found
them!
Below are two articles on this. The first one is very long. It includes
a detailed genetic analysis of Native Americans. Some eastern Indians,
such as the Ojibway, have both mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosomes which
indicate a European origin which could not be due to recent mixing with
whites. Their closest genetic relatives, with respect to these genes are
the Finns!
During the Ice Age, the Atlantic Ocean shrunk somewhat. The ice moved
south. It would have been possible for Stone Age hunters to travel along
the southern edges of the ice across Britain, Iceland, and Greenland to
eastern Canada. This would explain why the Clovis artifacts of North
America are so similar to the Solutrian artifacts of France. It would
also explain the European appearance of some Native Americans, which was
already apparent to the first modern European explorers.

Team Atlantis - Research Papers
Address:
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Changed:12:39 AM on Friday, January 12, 2001

Office of Research: Research In Review: Cover Story: Florida's First
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Address:
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Changed:8:12 PM on Friday, May 16, 2003

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The Sino-Caucasian Language Family

What is the Sino-Caucasian language family? It is a family of related
languages that includes Chinese, Chechen, Basque, and Navaho. How could
languages from such places that are so far apart be related?
Sino-Caucasian formed during the end of the Ice Age in northern Eurasia.
Similar culture, technology, racial type and language extended from
France to central Siberia. These Ice Age hunters expanded east into
North America, where they gave rise to the Caucasoid or Ainu-like
Kennewick Man in Washington and Spirit Cave Man in Nevada.
The Sino-Caucasian family is also known as the Dene-Caucasian Family.
Dené comes from the Navaho word for Navaho. I did a google search and
found 3 entries under Dené-Caucasian, 205 entries under
Dene-Caucasian, and 137 entries under Sino-Caucasian. Sino- stands for
Chinese.
One branch of Sino-Caucasian, called either Nostratic or Eurasiatic,
overran much of the original Sino-Caucasian territory, leaving only
pockets of non-Nostratic languages. These non-Nostratic languages are
called Sino-Caucasian.
What are the modern Sino-Caucasian languages? Chinese is by far the best
known. It belongs to the Sino-Tibetan family (a subgroup of
Sino-Caucasian). Sino-Tibetan also includes Tibetan and Burmese. Basque
is a member of this family. In the Caucasus Mountains there are Chechen,
Ingush and the 50 languages of Daghestan. There is a language spoken by
a few thousand people in Siberia called Ket. There is a language spoken
in or near Kashmir called Burushashki. Then, there are the Na-Dené
languages which are spoken in western Canada. About a thousand years
ago, some of these Na-Dené migrated south to Arizona. this is the
origin of the Navajo language, the most widely spoken native language in
the United States.
Some scholars believe that Sumerian, the language of the world's first
civilization, was Sino-Caucasian, but others classify it as Nostatic.
I found a map of the world's languages which shows this family, under
the name Dene-Caucasian. It shows red for Basque, a tiny patch of red in
Siberia for Ket, a big patch of red for Chinese, Tibetan, and Burmese, a
big patch of red in western Canada for Na-Dené, and a misplaced patch
of red in Texas, which should be in Arizona. Australia is a different
shade of red, but Australian languages have nothing to do with
Sino-Caucasian.
World Map of Language Families
This map is slightly inaccurate and ambiguous, but still gives a general
idea of the world's major language families.

Figure 5
Address:
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v33/n3s/fig_tab/ng1113_F5.html
http://forums.delphiforums.com/paleolingo
http://forums.delphiforums.com/prehistory
http://forums.delphiforums.com/biohistory
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nordichistory4
http://forums.delphiforums.com/indoeuropean
http://forums.delphiforums.com/truthseekers23






 
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(Login hdd523)
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Interesting

May 26 2003, 11:38 AM 

"including Kets (83.3%) and Sel’kups (76.2%), "

Do you remember last year when I made the "calculator", it placed British near the Selkups? May be the old component was the cause.

http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?popid=1&dbname=Ychrom60pops


"Southeastern Asia (up to 32% in the populations of India, Pakistan, and Iran)"

Actually, the level of HG3 is around 39-42 in Indo-Aryan speaking Indian population.

Bengalis 39%, Bombay Brahmins 42%, Punjabi Lobana 44%, and so on.

Source: Am J Hum Genet 72:313-332


 
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EGR
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hdd

May 26 2003, 11:42 AM 

how your calculator calculates the distance?

your own formula?

 
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(Login hdd523)
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Simple algebraic formula. Nothing complicated... no discriminants.

May 26 2003, 11:45 AM 

Just based on numbers.


 
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(Login hdd523)
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This is how I use it

May 26 2003, 12:00 PM 

Most of them use this:

Say, PopXXX has HG1=10%, HG=20%, HG3=30%, HG4=40%, and PopYYY has HG1=40%, HG2=30%, HG3-20%, HG4=10%.

I(actually, the computer does all the calculation using the server-side programming script) calculated the distance by:

$value= |(HG1PopXXX - HG1PopYYY)| + ... + |(HG4PopXXX - HG4PopYYY)|
$distance = $value/4

So, distance = {|(10-40)| + |(20-30)| + |(30-20)| + |(40-10)|}/4

= {30+10+10+30}/4 = 20


 
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(Login hdd523)
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Because of the the shared haplotype: 1C

May 26 2003, 11:43 AM 

Frequency of haplotype 1C:

British - 69%
Selkups - 76%

http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_data.asp?dbname=Ychrom60pops&orderby=ht1C&orderby_mode=desc << Has frequencies for the haplotype 1C... entered a year earlier.


 
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anon
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Paleo-Caucasoid Y-chromosomes in Africa

May 26 2003, 1:11 PM 

A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 70:1197-1214, 2002
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v70n5/013596/013596.html

With the exception of a single Y chromosome from Morocco with the M269 mutation (haplotype 117b), all group IX African chromosomes are characterized by the presence of the M173 and M207 derived alleles and the absence of the downstream mutations (haplotype 117). Haplotype 117 was found only in Cameroon, where it accounts for 26% of the chromosomes (40% in northern Cameroon). Chromosomes from Cameroon with this haplotype are the same as those reported in a previous article as belonging to haplotype 1C (Scozzari et al. 1999).

[. . .]

Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?

[. . .]

How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VIIX) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VIIX) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173- intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).

On the basis of phylogeographic Y-haplotype analyses, Asia has been regarded as the source of several old migrations leading to the peopling of America, Oceania, and Europe (Karafet et al. 1999; Santos et al. 1999; Hammer et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001b; Wells et al. 2001; Lell et al. 2002). In particular, M173-bearing chromosomes in Europe are considered to delineate an ancient expansion from Asia during the Upper Paleolithic, 30,000 years ago (Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001b; Wells et al. 2001). It is quite reasonable to hypothesize that an ancient Asian gene pool was the source of both the European (haplotype 117b) and Cameroonian (haplotype 117) M173 chromosomes. The fact that haplotype 117 is rare or absent in Asia (P.A.U., unpublished data) or the Middle East (present study), suggests that a large portion of its microsatellite diversity in Cameroon accumulated within the African continent after the proposed back-migration event, probably as a consequence of a population expansion. The coalescence age of the African haplotype 117, which we estimated as 4,100 years (95% CI 2,4008,060 years), could thus represent a date for such an expansion and a lower limit for the time of entry into Africa. The occurrence of the latter event may not necessarily be recent. Although anthropological evidence indicates recent movements between western Asia and Africa by pastoralists (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994), the phylogeography and diversity patterns of M173-associated lineages suggest an earlier demographic history. The absence in northern Cameroon of Y haplotypes affiliated with the recolonization of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum, as well as the subsequent Neolithic transition (Semino et al. 2000), is consistent with this interpretation. Interestingly, phylogenetic analysis of primate T-cell lymphotropic viruses type 1 indicate a putative Asian origin (Vandamme et al. 1998) followed by a simian- or human-mediated introduction to Africa 20,000 years ago (Van Dooren et al. 2001).

An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.

Interestingly, a frequency of 13% has been previously reported in an Egyptian sample for a group of chromosomes defined as haplotype 1C (Scozzari et al. 1999) and closely related to the M173 chromosomes. Unfortunately, this sample was not available for the present study. Although we cannot define more precisely the haplotype of the Egyptian 1C Y chromosomes, it is worth noting that four of six of these chromosomes showed dinucleotide microsatellite haplotypes that matched or were one-step neighbors of the M173 chromosomes found in Cameroon.


 
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Eurocentric Myths
(Login JonathanTate)

Utter nonsense!

May 26 2003, 7:57 PM 

Whats intereasting is that none of the northern Cameroonian people show the slightest trace of paleo-Caucasoid mixture let alone Cro-Magnoid traits. And who's to say that tis haplotype is Cro-Magnoid? Cro-magnoids did not descend from Northern Europeans even if all of this were true they're NOT your people.

 
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(Login xxLKxx)

Actually, its not.

June 3 2003, 12:06 PM 

Remember, the N. Cameroonians referred to are Fulani, Hausa, or similar such groups. This "admixture" (which is also found in Nigeria, if I remember correctly) is most probably the result of past admixture with Berbers from a time when these groups were situated much closer together.

In the alternative, it is believed by the locals that a band of Egyptians migrated there long ago.


 
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anon
(Login x956)
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Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry in the Middle East

May 26 2003, 1:36 PM 

M17 (HG3) -- marking a post-glacial expansion of Proto-Europid types, probably from north of the Black Sea

Iraqis .... 6.5%
Lebanese .. 9.7%
Turks ..... 6.6%
Syrians ... 10.0%


total M173 (including M17) (HG1 + HG3) -- total Central Eurasian Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry

Iraqis .... 17.3%
Lebanese .. 16.1%
Turks ..... 16.5%
Syrians ... 25.0%

The Eurasian haplogroups, R-M269 and R-M17, represent the second most frequent component of the Iraqi Y-chromosome gene pool. The R-M17 cluster distribution and its 49a,f associations suggest that the population movements from Central Asia/Eastern Europe into the modern Iran postulated by Quintana-Murci et al. (2001) also influenced Iraq. Indeed, the R-M17 shows a frequency of 6.5% in Iraq which falls in the lower edge (3–9%) of the range observed in the Iranian populations living at the border of Iraq.

[. . .]

Although the level of resolution of our analyses does not allow an evaluation of the back migrations of widely distributed haplogroups, it is possible to identify some European, African, and Asian signature markers in both male and female gene pools of modern Iraqis. Overall, these external long-range input appear to represent about 9% of mtDNAs and 30% of Y-chromosomes. MtDNA gene flow is revealed by the presence of the European haplogroups V and U5 (1.4%), the North African haplogroup U6 (0.9%), the sub-Saharan African haplogroups L1 and L2 (4.2%), and the East-Asian haplogroups M and B (2.3%). As for the Y chromosome, the African input is represented by the haplogroup E (12.2%), the input from Eastern Europe/Central Asia is revealed by R-M269/49a,f haplotypes 35 with its derivative 47 and R-M17 (15.9%), while haplogroup I and R-M269/49a,f haplotype 15 Y chromosomes indicate a limited gene flow from Europe (1.4%). The different extent of male and female external contribution observed in the Iraqi gene pool is a frequent observation in this kind of studies and often finds an explanation in the different male and female social behavior (Excoffier et al., 1996; Huoponen et al., 1997; Passarino et al., 1998; Perez-Lezaun et al., 1999; Salem et al., 1996; Scozzari et al., 1997; Seielstad et al., 1998; Torroni et al., 1994). However, it has also to be taken into account that the level of resolution of the mtDNA markers used in this study could be lower than that reached by the Y-chromosome counterparts.


Source: N. Al-Zahery et al. Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. In Press.



    
This message has been edited by x956 on May 26, 2003 1:38 PM


 
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EGR
(Login rarog)
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Re: Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry in the Middle East

May 26 2003, 2:31 PM 

It seems that at least most of HG3 distribution is due to the BA expansion: Norway and Germany (proto-Germanics), Poland, Hungary, Russia (Slavs), SE Russia, Kazakhstan, Western Siberia - Iranians. That's all backed by skeletal evidence. Most likely that HG3 presence in India is also due to the BA expansion.

BAs were presented in ancient Iraq, and actually Slavs penetrated as far as Asia Minor and Syria, and settled there in significant numbers.

Probably Dnepr-Donetz UP types were proto-HG3/HG1 and HG12/16... surely they weren't HG3, as it's not recorded in significant numbers in several Siberian groups based on the Dnepr-Donetz type... which in turn is similar to one of 2 basic Europid Mesolithic types...

Anyway, Anon, how do you feel about posting anthropological evidence that HG12/16 appeared in the Caucasoid population of EE and WS? I'll supply you of necessary citations from Alexeev and Gokhman.

 
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Melnorme
(Login Melnorme)
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Physical anthropology detects East Baltics in Leb. and Syria, not just Nordics - nt

May 26 2003, 2:32 PM 

nt

 
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EGR
(Login rarog)
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Slavs were BA. EB = North-Europid + a bit of Mongolid = blonde Europid with minor Mogoloid

May 26 2003, 2:35 PM 

ff

 
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Melnorme
(Login Melnorme)
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Yes. My point is, these Slavic migrations - which I believe did happen - were not pure BAs

May 26 2003, 2:35 PM 

they already had some East Baltics mixed in with them. I have personally seen some of these types, btw.

 
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EGR
(Login rarog)
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It's possible

May 26 2003, 2:41 PM 

but rather they became intermixed on the place... anyway, Dienekes won't like your idea LOL

 
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(Login Dienekes_Pontikos)
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The Slavs that came to Greece were dolichocephalic

May 26 2003, 3:46 PM 

they are unrelated to the Finno-Ugric/Slavic/Turkic mix also known as "Russians".



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(Login ProdigalSon)
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Wrong Turk. Lundman detected East Baltic types in Greece...

June 2 2003, 1:59 PM 



    
This message has been edited by ProdigalSon on Jun 2, 2003 2:07 PM


 
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Anonymous
(Login Dienekes_Pontikos)
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Aris Poulianos at the University of MOSCOW thought otherwise

June 2 2003, 5:41 PM 

So did Coon, Angel, Buxton, Von Luschan, Xirotiris, in short every physical anthropologist that actually examined living Greeks.



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anon
(Login x956)
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Re: Re: Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry in the Middle East

May 26 2003, 3:24 PM 

It seems that at least most of HG3 distribution is due to the BA expansion: Norway and Germany (proto-Germanics), Poland, Hungary, Russia (Slavs), SE Russia, Kazakhstan, Western Siberia - Iranians.

Incorrect. Cordeds (in western Europe, anyway) are most likely associated with HG2 (I in the new nomenclature) and HG1. The expansion of HG3 into Norway probably happened far before the expansion of Indo-Europeans. HG3 in Norway is probably primarily associated with Brunn types who were among the first settlers of Scandinavia.


Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms. European Journal of Human Genetics (2002) 10, 521 – 529.

Archaeological evidences have suggested that the core of
the oldest populations colonising Scandinavia 11 000 –
12 000 thousand years ago
came from the present Germany.
They probably went through the Jutland and the now
submerged Doggerland, and then headed northward via
the ice-free coastal area of Norway. Their lithic tools suggest
they belonged to the Ahrensburgian culture,41,42 that
thrived in central and eastern Europe (artifacts have been
found in Poland, Lithuania and Russia) in the so called ‘Late
Glacial’, that is at the end of the LGM, when the increase of
temperature and precipitation triggered the recession of the
ice sheets. The analysis of many Ahrensburg sites and the
related lithic tools has suggested that this culture started
from the Dniepr valley in Ukraine,20 one of the sites were
humans found refuge during the LGM. The analysis of Y
chromosome polymorphisms in present European populations
has indicated that Eu 19 (that is also characterised by
other Y chromosome markers: 49a,fht11, SRY 1532G35)
expanded between 13 000 and 7600 years ago from the
Dniepr-Don Valley area, probably when groups that initially
sought refuge in that area during the LGM were allowed to
migrate by the improved climatic conditions to those
regions of Europe previously covered by ice.7,37 In fact this
Y chromosome lineage, is by far more frequent is eastern
Europe with a decreasing westward gradient. In addition it
is much more diversified in eastern European populations.
The highest degree of diversification was observed in Ukranians.
It is then possible that Ahrensburgian men, as well
as most of the men descending from the Ukranian LGM
refuge bore Eu19 Y chromosomes
. The microsatellite haplotypes
linked to M17 in Norwegian individuals represents
indeed a subset of the repertoire observed in eastern Europe.
In particular it was observed the prevalence of the 15.3/1
(21/19 repeats) and of the 16.5/1 (23/19 repeats) haplotypes
with their relative derivatives. The Eu19 16.5/1 haplotype is
also very common in eastern Europe, while Eu 19 15.3/1
haplotype is common in Norway but very rare elsewhere.35
This peculiar pattern of microsatellites affiliated with EU19
may be explained by a founder effect, subsequent isolation
in Norwegians (and possibly the Scandinavians) and eventual
in loco expansion, as also observed elsewhere.37 If it
seems reasonable to assume that most of the Ahrensburgian
men bore the Eu19 Y chromosomes, it cannot be excluded
that they mixed with other groups before moving northward
to Norwegian coasts. In particular, late glacial central Europe
was characterised by the expansion of northern Balkan
groups, where the frequency of M170 Y chromosomes (EU
7) was probably very high.7 In addition, based on the differentiation
of haplogroup V in Scandinavia, it also seems that
groups coming from the northern Spain refuge entered
Norway.22,43 Should this be true, it is likely that M173 Y
chromosomes (EU18) also entered Norway during the late
glacial.

[. . .]

The present German gene pool shows a high frequency
of Eu7 [HG2] and Eu18 [HG1] haplotypes. These haplotypes, which
account for about 75% of the Norwegian Y chromosome
pool, are then likely to have been brought to Norway by
those groups who also brought the Indo-European
languages and the agriculture
. However, at present, it is
not possible to evaluate how much this migration impacted
the Norwegian gene pool. First, because it is not possible to
distinguish between lineages brought in the late glacial
time and those brought 5 – 6000 years ago. In addition,
non-random mating phenomena may also play a role. It
is possible that these cultures were composed of a subset
of elite males,21 who reduced the reproductive success of
other males and then the Y chromosome may emphasise
the real genetic contributions of the central European
migration to Norway. It has to be noticed that also part
of the Eu19 lineage could have entered Norway with the
migrations that brought the transition to agriculture. In
fact, although very low in Germany, this lineage is very
high in Poland, Hungary and in the former Czeckslovakia.
However the network of microsatellite haplotypes attached
to this lineage seems to suggest a long time in loco differentiation
(see above). Either because of late glacial or of more
recent migrations the Norway Y chromosome gene pool
appears to be very close to present day Germans. In fact
the Fst and the Fst data indicate Germans and a few other
Central European populations as being the closest to the
Norwegians. When we compare our results with those
based on different polymorphic systems,9,17 we can infer
that these conclusions are also valid for Swedish, while
Finns and Saami had a quite different genetic history with
a great impact of Uralic Finno-Ugric speaking population.





"Probably Dnepr-Donetz UP types were proto-HG3/HG1 and HG12/16"

Nope. Again, the area from which HG3 is believed to have originated is associated with UP types. More gracile (Corded and Danubian) types are associated with Central Europe and (most likely) HG2 and HG1.

"Anyway, Anon, how do you feel about posting anthropological evidence that HG12/16 appeared in the Caucasoid population of EE and WS?"

I will add some more information next time I update my site. And I may write up something about that "DNAprint" garbage, in which I'll probably touch on Tat-C.

"I'll supply you of necessary citations from Alexeev and Gokhman."

I welcome any information.


    
This message has been edited by x956 on May 26, 2003 3:26 PM
This message has been edited by x956 on May 26, 2003 3:25 PM
This message has been edited by x956 on May 26, 2003 3:25 PM


 
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EGR
(Login rarog)
Forum Member

ANON

May 26 2003, 4:01 PM 

I'd strongly disagree.

First, it's impossible to associate ONE RACE with 2 haplogroups. I think you agree.

Second,the area of the BA settlement is confined by Oder in the West, and Altai Mts in the East. Ancient Slavs and Iranians all were of the BA type, and this territory is esp. high in HG3, and in no way in HG2.

Third, the Ukrainian refuge might be limited to HG3, but not to a single racial type. (as with HG1 and HG2)

The BA element in Norwegians, not very strong in the beginning and I guess already diluted via mixing with Germanic peoples could well penetrate Norway later, as suggested by the study: "It has to be noticed that also part of the Eu19 lineage could have entered Norway with the migrations that brought the transition to agriculture. In fact, although very low in Germany, this lineage is very high in Poland, Hungary and in the former Czeckslovakia." [and it means that the IE language was brought by them as well]

So your argumentation is feeble and do not take into consideration BA spread in EE and Central Asia, Western Siberia, which simply lack HG2

=============

>>"Probably Dnepr-Donetz UP types were proto-HG3/HG1 >>and HG12/16"

>Nope. Again, the area from which HG3 is believed to >have originated is associated with UP types.

Same can be said about HG1 and HG2, after all :D

> More gracile (Corded and Danubian) types are >associated with Central Europe and (most likely) HG2 >and HG1.

And how they are associated? Everywhere where we see HG3 we see Cords: Poles, Russians, Iranians... Let's see HG1 - where do you see Cords in Ireland? HG2 - where are they in Sweden, in particularly low-skulled country?

Once again, gracile Corded types of Asia surely weren't high in HG2.

>>"Anyway, Anon, how do you feel about posting >>anthropological evidence that HG12/16 appeared in >>the Caucasoid population of EE and WS?"

>I will add some more information next time I update >my site. And I may write up something about >that "DNAprint" garbage, in which I'll probably touch >on Tat-C.

>"I'll supply you of necessary citations from Alexeev >and Gokhman."

>I welcome any information.

Well, you're going to post my info that Western Siberia was Caucasoid in the time of HG12 formation, let me know and I'll send you tthe necessary citations.

 
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anon
(Login x956)
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Re: ANON

May 26 2003, 5:23 PM 

First, it's impossible to associate ONE RACE with 2 haplogroups.

Of course. However, it is possible to say that the Cordeds of the western European Corded Ware culture were in all probablity associated with high levles of HG2.

Again:

The Corded Ware complex s.l. is biologically heterogeneous. The local groups of the core area (Central Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland) form a very homogeneous block, issued from the local "Old Europe" substratum and persisting until Aunjetitz at least This block shows no biological affinities to the Ukrainian Kurgan populations. There is no evidnence for the physical presendce of Kurgan tribes in this area.

Roland Menk. A synopsis of the physical anthropology of the corded ware complex on the background of the expansion of the Kurgan cultures. JIES 8.

"the area of the BA settlement is confined by Oder in the West"

The homogeneous core of the Corded ware complex = Central Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland.

"Ancient Slavs and Iranians all were of the BA type"

Citation? Also, I think any resemblance between "Corded" types in Kazakhstan and "Corded" types in Germany probably had more to do with convergent evolution than common descent. Just as, today, a German "Alpine" is not particularly closely related to a Central Asian "Alpine".

Third, the Ukrainian refuge might be limited to HG3, but not to a single racial type.

True, there were probably a variety of UP, Baltic, and "Med" types. But the major element was UP.

The bottom line is that the Kurgan people (perhaps the "purest" descendants of the Ukraine refuge) were biologically distinct from the Corded people of Central Europe.

The BA element in Norwegians, not very strong in the beginning and I guess already diluted via mixing with Germanic peoples could well penetrate Norway later, as suggested by the study: "It has to be noticed that also part of the Eu19 lineage could have entered Norway with the migrations that brought the transition to agriculture. In fact, although very low in Germany, this lineage is very high in Poland, Hungary and in the former Czeckslovakia." [and it means that the IE language was brought by them as well]

Some HG3 "could" have been brought to Norway by Indo-European speakers. You left out the next sentence.

"However the network of microsatellite haplotypes attached
to this lineage seems to suggest a long time in loco differentiation
(see above)."

Most HG3 in Norway probably arrived before the IE speakers. And all evidence points to the fact that the people who brought IE speech to Norway had high levels of HG2 and low levels of HG3.

Same can be said about HG1 and HG2, after all :D

Not in Central Europe in the time period in question.

And how they are associated? Everywhere where we see HG3 we see Cords: Poles, Russians, Iranians

In none of those (modern) populations do Cords form anything like a majority.

Let's see HG1 - where do you see Cords in Ireland?

Obviously, there are multiple racial types associated with HG1 in western Europe (including UP, "Med", and probably Alpine, Dinaric, etc.)

HG2 - where are they in Sweden, in particularly low-skulled country?

Sweden is generally accepted as the most heavily Nordic country in existence, a "refuge of the classical Nordic type". I'm not concerned with head height -- that's a single metrical trait which could be easily altered by drift or selection. Incidentally, do you have a citation showing that head heights are significantly lower in Sweden than in Norway?

Well, you're going to post my info that Western Siberia was Caucasoid in the time of HG12 formation, let me know and I'll send you tthe necessary citations.

Would you mind posting them now?

 
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(Login Dienekes_Pontikos)
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Re: Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry in the Middle East

May 26 2003, 2:44 PM 

>> M17 (HG3) -- marking a post-glacial expansion of Proto-Europid types, probably from north of the Black Sea

Iraqis .... 6.5%
Lebanese .. 9.7%
Turks ..... 6.6%
Syrians ... 10.0%

M17 occurs at such low frequencies, that it can probably be to a great extent be explained by miscegenation with Slavic slaves (either via the Arabs, or via the practice of Ottomans to convert Slavic children to Islam)/Varangians/Crusaders and of course the Turkic invaders themselves (in Central Asia HG3 is high)



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anon
(Login x956)
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Re: Re: Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry in the Middle East

May 26 2003, 2:59 PM 

M17 occurs at such low frequencies, that it can probably be to a great extent be explained by miscegenation with Slavic slaves (either via the Arabs, or via the practice of Ottomans to convert Slavic children to Islam)/Varangians/Crusaders and of course the Turkic invaders themselves (in Central Asia HG3 is high)

Uh, sure. That's why HG3 is higher in Syria and Lebanon than in Turkey (I believe it is higher still in parts of Arabia). Try again.


 
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Melnorme
(Login Melnorme)
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Remember the Turks were Byzantine Greeks until relatively recently.

May 26 2003, 3:02 PM 

though I'm not sure how significant that is.


    
This message has been edited by Melnorme on May 26, 2003 3:05 PM
This message has been edited by Melnorme on May 26, 2003 3:04 PM
This message has been edited by Melnorme on May 26, 2003 3:02 PM


 
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(Login Dienekes_Pontikos)
Forum Member

Re: Re: Re: Paleo-Caucasoid ancestry in the Middle East

May 26 2003, 3:30 PM 

>> Uh, sure. That's why HG3 is higher in Syria and Lebanon than in Turkey (I believe it is higher still in parts of Arabia). Try again.

Syria and Lebanon were one of the main targets of the Crusades, in addition to being part of both the Arab and Ottoman Empires (with the Turkic/slave/captive associations that I've explained). Also, Anatolia has traditionally had a much larger population base.

R1a may have probably been present in antiquity in the Middle East and Anatolia, but these processes doubtlessly boosted it.

Additionally, HG3 was found by Spencer Wells only in 4% of Iranians (from Tehran) and not in any from Shiraz or Isfahan. It's found in Eastern Iran though.

Hg3 has not been found to my knowledge among Arabians. Perhaps in low frequencies.



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(Login hdd523)
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Yes, in Eastern Iran HG3 is high. Western Iranians have HG9.

May 26 2003, 3:31 PM 

NT


 
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(Login europhile)
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Cro-Magnon superiority

June 2 2003, 1:12 PM 


The flip flop weather conditions of the fourth ice age was a major factor in evolution. During these rapidly changing weather conditions it was not possible to rely on niche skills that were passed down from the older generation. These rapid temperature changes would have had an effect throughout the globe, however these rapid changes combined with severe temperatures posed severe selection pressures in northerly latitudes.

In tropical climates the variable weather changes would mean a switch from one plant source or plentiful animal source to another. However in Northern climates there was less choice in the available food sources and a sharp temperature change more likely would have required a change to a completely different source. On top of learning a new way of living whatever methods were used had to be perfected again due to the scarcity. Excellent hunting skills would have been required to bring down large game which required improved planning, better communication, better technology. Also the severe temperatures demanded improved technology in order to build shelter rapidly without which survival was impossible as they followed large game.

The constant changes in weather required skills that had to be developed very rapidly requiring a brain with great versatility which could survive in a wide range of situations, an intelligent brain that could deal with many new situations rather than a specialist. The development of this practical intelligence had payoffs in more abstract thinking- reasoning, planning and ingenuity.



The below article discusses the evolution of homo sapiens in Western Eurasia and how the ingenuity which evolved spread to the other continents.
See Full article
http://www.amren.com/963issue/963issue.html
The Origin of Races
(Part II)
All world civilizations can probably be
traced back to Cro-Magnon man.
by Michael W. Masters

"Everywhere one looks the Upper Paleolithic
arrives in the form of an invasion . . . ."
– David de Laubenfels

Thirty-five thousand years ago a new human race appeared somewhere in western Eurasia. Scientists do not know the precise point of origin or exactly how this new Homo sapiens sapiens became differentiated from his immediate predecessors, but differences there were, and in abundance. Though anatomically modern humans appeared more than 100,000 years ago, this new race possessed a remarkable constellation of new talents: creativity, ingenuity and a restless wanderlust that forever altered the course of life on earth.
Known as people of the Upper Paleolithic Period (the end of the Paleolithic – from approximately 60,000 to 10,000 B.C.), they were identified in 1868 by the discovery of fossils in a cave in southern France called Cro-Magnon. Soon exquisite cave paintings, clay figurines, ivory and calcite carvings, jewelry and musical instruments were found in other caves in France, Spain and Germany. Vivid images of mammoth, bison, horses and Cro-Magnon females indicated awareness not only of the physical world but also of sexual reproduction.



Formed in the crucible of a European ice age, Cro-Magnon had a cranial capacity of well over 1500 cubic centimeters. This is larger than modern Northern Europeans and East Asians, who have an average, including both males and females, of about 1350 cubic centimeters. Modern Africans have an average cranial capacity of about 1250 cubic centimeters. Since the correlation between brain size and intelligence is now well established, the intellectual capabilities of Cro-Magnon must have been impressive.

Cro-Magnon people looked very similar to modern Europeans. David de Laubenfels, a Syracuse University anthropologist, said of them: "All have certain physical characteristics in common; all have well formed chins, high straight foreheads, smaller modern teeth, and brains as big as Neanderthal but without the heavy brow ridges. . . . The original Upper Paleolithic people would, if they appeared among us today, be called Caucasoid . . . ."
Technologically advanced Cro-Magnon people expanded outward from Northwest Europe during the Mesolithic era, 20,000 years ago or more, moving into West Asia and North Africa, as well as into Northeast Asia, where mixing with indigenous proto-Mongoloids appears to have been substantial. The mountains of Central Asia formed a barrier to their penetration into Southeast Asia. As a result, Southeast Asia today is largely a mix of early Mongoloids, Australoids and Negritos (possibly descended from earlier migrations of Africans).
The impact of the dispersal of these early Caucasians on the creation of civilization is incalculable. As the map on this page shows, every place on earth where history records the rise of great civilizations lies on a Cro-Magnon migration path. Prof. De Laubenfels adds: "There is reason to believe that the significant changes associated with the cultural advance known as the Upper Paleolithic had fully as great an impact on the human condition as any one of the familiar more recent great economic 'revolutions' [agricultural, industrial, etc.] . . . . The Upper Paleolithic techniques . . . overwhelmed all regional bounds and spread inexorably in all directions ultimately to transform the economy in all parts of the inhabited world . . . . The resulting population realignment produced for the most part the familiar modern racial groups and for the first time placed humans in the dominant ecological role in the world."
What Prof. de Laubenfels attributes to "cultural advance" and "techniques" may be ascribed to intellect and temperament. Culture follows these traits and not the other way around. And, as numerous researchers have suggested – for example, Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario and Edward Miller of the University of New Orleans – these traits have genetic origins. Even so timid a source as The History and Geography of Human Genes, by Professors Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi and Piazza, affirms that "the prototype of modern humans comes from Cro-Magnon."
Civilization, throughout time and place, is therefore the virtually exclusive creation of the new race that was shaped in the forests and caves of Europe 35,000 years ago. This creation is not merely cultural. It is organic and genetic, and followed the restless migrations of Upper Paleolithic peoples into nearly every corner of the earth.










 
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anon
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Interesting article. Thanks (nt)

June 2 2003, 1:25 PM 



 
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(Login Dienekes_Pontikos)
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The above series of posts establishes without a doubt

June 2 2003, 5:47 PM 

That Cro-Magnon ancestry is highest in the places that were first to be civilized. The high occurrence of Cro-Magnon ancestry in Cameroon is also proof that it makes people superior. The same is true for the Altai-Sayan region, that has contributed so much to the civilization of the world. In Europe too we see a gradient of "Cro-Magnon" ancestry reaching its highest point in Ireland; it is well-known that the flow of culture has been from Ireland to the Balkans always, and not the other way around. And, let's not forget that it is also present in the Near East where civilization was born. Never mind that this so-called Cro-Magnon ancestry is about ten times less than the indigenous Neolithic ancestry. Surely, it must have been the Cro-Magnon ancestry that's the cause for all greatness.



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RE:The above series of posts establishes without a doubt

June 3 2003, 10:56 AM 

If the final stages of evolution occurred in Europe during the last ice age then it is reasonable to assume that these newly evolved abilities spread to other regions of the world.

The greatest achievements are found in the areas with most Cro-magnon ancestry. The earliest examples of abstract and creative thinking was found in Europe. Europe was comparatively unpopulated in Palaeolithic and Neolithic times for environmental reasons. However when the population in Europe did recover civilization evolved at an unprecedented pace, despite relative geographic isolation.

Also, while impressive, the developments in the Middle east were largely unconscious gradual incremental developments unlike the individual creativity and ingenuity displayed in Europe.

Please post any information you have about the presence of Cro-magnon ancestry in European populations.

 
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MANIATES
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DIENEKES -Natufian man in the near east had UP morphology correct?

June 3 2003, 11:39 AM 

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/03.html

Natufian man appears to be a descendant from an Upper Paleolithic Cro Magnon ancestor. They were of rugged Eurafrican (Robust Mediterranean - Linear Basic White) stock with a doliochocephalic skull and of rather short stature ..... The term used to decribe this type is Robust Mediteranean BASIC WHITE .

Would this mean that of the NEOLITHIC elements spreading to Europe are partially decendent from Cromagmum types in the Near East

 
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(Login Dienekes_Pontikos)
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Yes, that is true

June 3 2003, 3:43 PM 

Natufians were Basic White (Robust Mediterranean). Actually they were not Cro-Magnoids like the people of Europe, but Combe-Capelloids, another UP type.



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MANIATES
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So that means neolithic farmer who spread to

June 3 2003, 4:21 PM 


Europe were partially Cromagnum.

 
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Eurocentric Myths
(Login JonathanTate)

Cro-Magnons had nothing to do with Cameeronians

June 3 2003, 12:41 PM 

can you name one civilization that arose in cameroon? Stay the fuck out of Africa with your foolish games.


 
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LK
(Login xxLKxx)

When was Cameroon first populated by humans, anyway?

June 3 2003, 1:18 PM 

The "Cro-magnon" dna is due to Berber admixture, as stated in my post above.


 
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(Login xxLKxx)

lol

June 3 2003, 12:18 PM 

"We ought not scoff at this presumptive intelligence, given the simple if beautiful tools, borers, scrapers, hand axes, spear and arrow heads, needles, combs, now made of bone, ivory, flint, precious stones, fabricated with excruciatingly careful and diligent care and perception."

There is not a race on earth that didnt create these same things and with the same "excruciatingly careful and diligent care and perception".

"But remember, we do not judge the achievements of a people by what they have inherited. Rather, the test of any progress in civilization is made by the advances a people make over the previous generation."

Not so. Unless theyre Nordic, nothing any race ever does (independent of Nordic influence) is considered an "achievement", let alone a "progress in civlization".




 
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