Thanks for advice on the "slow motion" breakup I posted about a couple weeks ago. I gave my H permission to put the whole breakup with his phone/email OW on hold, since we were at an impasse about what I wanted (total cutoff) and what he wanted (remain friends with her).
We haven't been to counseling yet. I've procrastinated on that, given his reluctance. Here's my dilemma:
Right after D-Day two months ago, he locked me out of his computer, email, and phone. He says the affair is over, and I believe him, but sporadic contact continues.
I believe that the odds are slim that he will let me read any of the email... ever. After all, he blew a gasket when I revealed that I'd dug up all his phone record evidence. That was just too big of a breach of privacy for him. He admitted it was illogical to feel that way, but, there you have it. If he felt so strongly about me seeing dates and times, think of how he'd feel if I actually saw conversations, words, feelings expressed.
I desperately want to see his email... I feel a need to actually read the words since all I'm getting are weak paraphrases and cherry-picked versions of what their relationship is or was like. Hearing him tap on the keyboard is a daily torment. I fantasize crazily about ways to get his password.
I am tempted to (can't believe I'm saying this) pick up a keystroke recorder to retrieve his passwords and commit an all-out break-in.
This is unethical. Yes, I know his behavior was unethical. I am very afraid of what I might see, while still needing to see it. However, I couldn't confess to seeing it unless I wanted him to basically kick me out of the house. But what if I read something that can't be kept under wraps? I think this would be a complete dealbreaker for him. He would feel completely and utterly robbed and betrayed, and the price to pay for my "right to know" or need to know might just be too high.
I'm trying to figure out where my need for safety ends and complete obsession begins. But if he continues to insist that I take his word for things and not be transparent, I just don't know if I'll ever be able to stop from sliding into obsession. Maybe breaking into email is the wrong solution. Sigh. Holy crud, do we ever need to go to counseling.
Anyone have any thoughts on the temptation to commit these sorts of high-stakes "crimes" in the name of something else?
Your motivation to get this information any way you can is understandable. You need the information to evaluate your future and to feel secure. He's withholding it.
Research by Peggy Vaughn has shown that when the WS is not willing to openly discuss the details of the affair with the BS (to the extent that BS wants) after an affair, the marriage is less likely to be reconciled by 2 or 3 times. It's important that trust be re-established in the marriage. This very unlikely to happen when the WS is not being transparent and accountable to the BS.
After D-day, my wife gave me access to her email and phone records. She did not want me to read her emails with the OM, in fact she had deleted them. However, I was able to get them recovered from the computer. Still, she did not want me to read them because she understood that the words she exchanged with the OM would hurt me deeply, and they did. However, I insisted that this was something I needed to decide for myself and that she needed to cooperate with me. That didn't stop her from trying to convince me that it would do more harm than good. She could have taken steps to prevent me from reading them, for example destroying the computer they were on, but she didn't.
However, I think reading them has been an overall benefit to our recovery because I would have decided what the said for myself if I had not read them, and this would have been even worse than the actually messages. The important benefit of sharing this information with the BS is that it proves that the xWS has submitted themselves to the mercy of the BS (i.e. "I'll do anything if you will forgive me" are words of submission, they need to be followed up with action such as this), and they strangely unite the couple because they eliminate any of the secrets that the affair gave to the WS.
I would encourage you to read recovery resources that support the need for transparency and openness in recovery and to explain to your husband why he needs to adopt these attitude for the success of your marriage.
Tal, I think it's safe to say that most of us do this. In fact, it is a condition on THEIR being able to remain in the marriage. Sorry I'm not up to date with your story and I sense that you are right smack in the beginning of this nightmare.
So first I will tell, don't feel guily about getting into his email. Look at it as checking into your own life because what he is doing is affecting your life and you have every right to get this info to make decisions regarding yourself. How ever you look at it, it is now very much ok to dig and search and find, no matter what you have to do.
He calls it betrayal but come on, can it be worse that the betrayal he has done to you? Not that two wrongs make a wright(?). But this is ok and normal.
As far a being obsessive, that is true. It is an obsession. But it is part of what we all go through. What you are feeling and doing is normal.
The important thing you need to consider though, is can you handle what you will find? What if you found in his emails that he had spent weekends making mad passionate love with her and took her to the best restaurants and bought her wonderful gifts that he never gave to you? Could you handle it?
Be prepared for this. If you can't handle what you may find, don't do it.
I don't find it unethical at all. Your protecting yourself. But beware of what you might find.
For me a deeper issue than breaking into his computer is why will he not be transparent? If he really wants to reconcile why wont he do the things you need? Such as letting you read his e-mails. Maybe more importantly than the past e-mails is access to the e-mails he currently recieves, along with calls. There should be no contact. But is you have agreed to some contact and the affair is over why can't you know what they are communicating about?
I would install the key logger. But in your situation, you need to determine a few things first. If he discovers it and ends the marriage, is that what you want, if you read things you can't handle will you divorce him, is that what you want, are you willing to take these risks. I think you also need to evaluate if you want to even bother to stay in a marriage with a man who has betrayed you and will not do what is necessary to help you heal.
I'm sorry if this comes across harsh. You are in a very tough situation and my heart goes out to you. I accidentally stumbled across my H's secret e-mail account and got to read the ongoing correspondence between them, this was d-day 2 for me.
Ok...I am going to be bold here. I too am for installing the keylogger, or better yet spyware (Spector pro and/or eBlaster). You have a right to know what is going on in your marriage and when your WS is not willing to be 100% honest, then you have to do what you have to do to get the necessary information about your marriage to make an informed decision as to whether or not to stay. You need to know the truth. I also agree that this approach is not for everyone. You may find out information that is just too much to bear...but then you will know where you truly stand.
It is obvious that he is not trying very hard if he is not willing to discontinue all contact, including cyber relations. I know you say you are not pushing for it, but the marriage doesnt stand a chance as long as there is any contact with the OW.
I will say that you have to do what you feel is right for you...your H is not being transparent with you...you have every right to protect yourself from further hurt...
Your H broke your trust...have can you believe what he is telling you? his actions are saying that he has more to hide...even if he is being trust worthy...
Hi there,
I went through this.
If there is one person on the planet you have a 'right' to know what they are doing/when/where/with whom...it is your spouse. Him keeping things from you is wrong, especially when it concerns your marriage. In addition to all the things you share in life as partners, you must take care that you do not share things you never agreed too...I hate to be such a blunt downer, but STD's are real. And spouses do cheat, and lie, and hide.
If he is doing something inappropriate, and even more so if it affects you, you have a right to know. Period. And if he does not come clean, it is in YOUR best interests to find out why. Him continuing to keep the very things from you that were the way he started and carried on his affair (phone, computer, etc) is a big red flag for me. Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
I trusted my H's affair was over. It never was. And he always had a reason why i could not see his email/phone records/etc. BS! He started this, you have to decide what you can live with and how/who will finish it. I agree with an earlier poster though...prepare yourself for what you will find. I think it is always more involved that we are told/allow ourselves to believe.
I wish i had installed a keylogger. it would have saved me a whole additional year and a half of hell. And, if he is not doing anything wrong, then you are simply proving what he is doing right.
Good luck,
Newmama
I was in the same position as you no more then a month ago and I purchased KGB Spy online. Same set of circumstances - his email, his cell phone is his private business. H left for overseas on August 4th telling me everything was ok but when I checked his email (using the password I'd found using the program) I found out on August 7th that he intended to resume his A (I am assuming giving him and the OW a sixth month "head-start" on the relationship). It hurt/hurts like hell but at least now I'm am not guessing at what's going on and now it's me making decisions on facts and not suspicions (no feelings of "what if he was telling the truth").
If you want to use this program, send me an email and I can let you know the best way to "hide" all the evidence of it's presence and how to set it up to best "see" what you want to find out (it will also do periodic screen shots based on mouse clicks in case he doesn't actually reply to an email but there is information in it).
Also, not one person I've talked to (including friends, relatives and a padre) think that my "hacking" was unethical given the circumstances.
And, when confronted with his emails, my H came up with a denial/explanation which I think felt almost as bad as the emails themselves - couldn't even admit to it but had to try and turn it around like somehow it was my fault he replied/sent them. Just be prepared as it amazed me that he couldn't even take responsibility when caught red-handed.
I read my husband's emails without his authorization. He has always used a derivative of certain words and numbers and I hacked his email within minutes.
I must admit I felt far more guilt than I should have, given our circumstances. Yet, I read and read and read until I felt like my eyeballs were going to pop out.
Since he has told me he has ended things with his OW (he has NOT) I am slowly building a case to support his lies. I am waiting for the right time to reveal what I know. (He frequently tells me I am paranoid for not believing it is over with OW).
I also cut and pasted ALL of his emails into my own private password protected word document as well.
The part I found most fascinating was that his OW writes volumes and appears to be very deeply involved. Whereas my husband's emails are much more about daily life, like a weather report.
It is also quite apparent that he has not told his OW that I know about their affair.
Hello
It is really tough when the WD has a company phone! Not having access to those records nearly drove me wild. A couple of months later he finally started producing bills but I found out later that he had also taken out a new, separate cell phone account. Pull out the stops in gathering information. Ivory
First let me say that I am very sorry for the hell you are going thru right now. And I have to put my two cents in on this. There is nothing ethical about STD's, ruining your life, living a lie, running up credit cards, spending YOUR money on the OW, losing your mind and depression. THIS IS WAR. And whatever it takes to find out what the TRUTH is, you have every right!!! WS's are liars and they will never come completely clean with you.
I read in tears the bullsh** crap Newmamma's H and that OW put her thru this past year. Leaving her alone to struggle with an ill newborn!! Feeding her just enough lies to string her along. I personally wanted to get on a plane and put those two losers out of their misery.
I'm at a point where personally I don't care what the truth is....I just want to know the complete truth. There is just a certain way I have to live my life and unless I know what I am dealing with and who, I can't go on. In a marriage there are no secrets. You both have to be standing on equal ground. I think a Keylogger will level the field. Good luck and thank God you are here at HH. HUGS! E
My H gave me access to his e-mails but forgot to tell me the password and I felt bad trying to hack it. Then suddenly he gave me the PW and encouraged me to check his mails. Of course I found very little, just one or two givaways which made me suspicious. One night when he was out of town I looked at some other folders in his account and found evidence that he was still in touch with OW, still saying he would love her forever and that I was the b***h queen from hell. And around the time he gave me his password he had established another account just for her. This was my second d-day and I rang him at the hotel where he was and blasted him for 90 minutes. The good thing was that it made him come out of the fog and realise that he did want to stay with me and so he finally broke it off with her. He now expects me to check on him and is glad he can demonstrate that he is trustworthy. Like Tom's W he didn't want me to keep reading but also didn't delete the mails until I asked him to.
The bad thing is I have the memory of the words he wrote to her which circulate in my head day after day. Sometimes I fling them at him; other times I lose all confidence that he did the right thing by staying with me, and that he would be better off with his "only princess", his "gorgeous girl", his "darling S". So did I need to see what he had written? At the time I did, and I was obsessive about finding the messages (amongst 10,000 which had been restored after there was a system crash at his work). I kept copies of what I found and reread them over and over. But eventually I realised that it was just causing friction and grief to read them. Unlike Tom I started to wish I hadn't seen them or read so much. What he actually said was much much more loving, romantic and committed than I imagined, and also I never thought he would be so nasty and vicious about me.
So I don't think it's unethical to access his records and mails by whatever ways you can. But I do think you need to be aware that reading everything he wrote could derail your reconciliation and those words will stay with you forever.
First of all, I wanted to mention up-front that I changed my login to something a little more anonymous – I realized too late that the first login I chose would show up in Google, and it’s too distinctive and could be found by my H. I hope this is all right, etiquette-wise.
Thank you for your incredible insights and advice, helping me explore this mess. I’ve been feeling so alone, not wanting to talk to friends and family about this – and I feel incredibly helped. What a blessing to have this in-between ground, between the extremes of a therapist (objective to a fault) and family (waaaaay too subjective)!
This is a real challenge. I feel like I'm past the vindictive “I’ll-show-the-bastard-and-teach-him-the-meaning-of-pain” stage that I was in a month ago. My H is my friend and good, tangible things are coming out of this shakeup.
But.
We’re still both slaves to the A, as he keeps one foot in the fog… computer, email, and phone locked down tightly. Saying (try not to laugh) that he doesn’t trust me. Sighing and rolling his eyes when I bring “it” up. Complaining that I won’t get over it.
“Why can’t we focus on the present?” he asks.
“You don’t care about my feelings,” he says.
“I’m on a leash,” he says.
It’s unreasonable, he says, not to be able to maintain a “hey-how’s-it-going” relationship with the OW.
He really wants to be able to “laugh this off” (his words).
He doesn’t want to go to therapy together.
I know this is the voice of someone who isn’t accepting being told that he cannot have what he wants. The voice of someone who -- desperate not to be under scrutiny -- will turn things around on the inquisitor (me) and complain that he’s being controlled. These actions pretty much speak for themselves. Like Newmama and Pat said, those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
I’m taking everyone’s advice on information-seeking very deeply to heart right now. Tom, my greatest fantasy is that he would open everything up, right now. I believe 100% that it would be an overall benefit to our recovery, as it was to yours.
Teri, Lisa, and Liz hit the nail on the head as far as the source of this gnawing, debilitating fear in my stomach. Can I handle what I will find out? I mean, I’m still pulling out my secret stash of phone records, poring over them and feeling anger build all over again. Almost... savoring it (that's hard to admit. Am I crazy?) Masochism is a funny thing. I face up to the fact that I have those tendencies (rehashing, obsession, unforgiveness, punishing).
My tentative plan is to carefully confront and ask… one more time… for what I need and what our marriage needs. I will ask, and insist as gently as I can, to be brought into the secrets and see emails. I can’t cry. I can’t scream. I HAVE to be the most compassionate, understanding, reasonable person I can be for this conversation.
And if I get turned down? If I get it all turned around on me? Then I guess I couldn’t ask for a clearer red flag and need to decide what I’m prepared to do.
Sorry you are hurting, Tal. One question: has your H read Joseph's Letter (see Helpful Links)? If not, I STRONGLY urge you to print out a copy and have him read it.
It's all a haze, but I believe that in the first days after D-Day I sent him a link to the letter, but he was pushing away all the self-help things I was sending him. He suffers from excessive cynicism and scoffs at outside help and resources. I might have to borrow heavily from the letter and write my own version to give to him.
And speaking of letters, I think I practically do have to write a "letter of introduction" to open the lines of communication with my H. Talking has just been explosive and leads to more... as I said... eye-rolling on his part, and crying on mine. I need to be taken seriously and not lose control of my emotions. I may feel a little dumb handing him a letter that basically asks for permission to open the flood gates, but whatever it takes!
First off, do you need to ASK his permission to do anything? You have a right to stand up for yourself, and requesting that he read a letter that explains your pain is not out of line. If he is cynical, too bad! That is his problem. Why is he so insecure that he can't respect other people's opinions?
In the first year or so after Dday #2, my H and I found emailing each other with questions, comments, suggestions, often to be easier to do than face to face. Perhaps this would also work for you and your H.
