(Andria, I didnt want to intrude on your post - but I know exactly what you mean!!! And I hope I may get some answers here from ANYONE!)


Tom & Jerry: (Cute!) Why is it the WS goes through this half-ass attempt to repair after the A? I am going through this now and it is killing me. Our Dday was 2 months ago yesterday and I feel like I have busted my ass to stay with a man that says he loves me and wants to stay together, yet I really havent seen much signs of that. I ask him and he gives me this bull about how he just feels lost right now. This all while I still discover lies and betrayl.... yet again, I am working dbl time to repair our relationship. I actually feel rejected in a way and I dont know how much more I can take of this. What kills me is he is the one that cheated, yet I feel like it is me doing the work to repair. I have given him plenty of civil outs and he continues to say he is devoted to us. Well if this is devotion, I am lost.

How long does this go on? I really feel like the woman he cheated with have gotten more care and respect from him in their so called "break-ups" than I have.

Prime example.... last night he took off for over two hours, wouldnt answer either of his phones, yes he carries two cell phone. Finally calls and says "Hey, whats wrong? Why have you called me 15 times?" When I asked where he was, he told me he went for a drive (He does like to drive to let off steam) and then stopped to play pool by himself. (Not sure if I beleive the by himself.) I just feel he has turned cold towards me.......

How long does this cold, shortness, rude, bitterness last????

Is he mad at me because I blew his cover on his dbl life and now he has to shape up???? Have I spoiled his fun and now he is mad and taking it out on me? You would think he would be the opposite.... kissing up to me like never before... I have yet to seen that behavior! I have expressed all this to him as well and he just says sorry and that he will try harder. 2 months guys... wheres the trying? I know I am not being unreasonable here either... I am not asking for the moon, but it would be nice to get a call like old times in the middle of the day and him just asking me how my day was. Havent got one in two months... in fact I was treated better when he was cheating!!!!!

What is up with this?

Coral,

At two months out, it is quite likely that your H is still in the fog to some extent. Possibly he feels ambivalent because it is incredibly painful for WS to really look at the damage their poor choices have caused. It is not unusual for both BS and WS to be suffering from depression. Has your H had any IC? If not, I would suggest you might want to talk about it. He needs to discover what is broken in himself that let him have an A.

I am sorry you are hurting. The healing path is long and painful, I know.

Encouraging fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

(((Coral)))

I know I am not Tom or Jerry, but hey, I thought I might add my 2 cents worth.

I know that what I am about to say is not going to be what you want to hear. My H acted the same way on d-day number one. The behavior lasted 2 years! And the reason it lasted two years was 1) H could not face his addictions and any other issues he had 2) H could not admit he needed to change his thinking and get help, and 3) because he could not do 1 & 2, he went back to OW and continued cheating for the next two years. all the while claiming to love me and wanting things to work out. Basically, until something clicks in the WS's head and the fog clears, this is how it stays.  Eventually the WS gets sick and tired of the BS "trying" and start to see you as a major annoyance.  They just want to forget about what happened and not do the work necessary to help heal the marriage.  I also believe that for many the guilt gets to them and they would rather not have to go there either. Many just see the task as too great to conquer.

In addition to the A problems, any WS who has addictions is at a higher risk of remaining in a fog and also at a higher risk of having more A's. Addictions are a b*tch!  They are difficult to give up even with help.  But until the addict seeks the help he needs, nothing changes!!! The behavior remains until the WS can look deep into themselves and deal with the A and their addictions.

His behavior has nothing to do with you or how hard you are working on the marriage.  It takes two WILLING partners. Is he really willing to do the work?  It doesnt sound like it.  Sounds like he is avoiding. This is why we say actions speak louder than words.  He can say whatever he wants to say, but it his actions that will tell you what he really wants. 

I am sorry you are hurting....Carol~

 

Carol pretyy much answered this the way I would have.

Many WS's say how after D-day looking into the "mirror" they see an ugly discusting and unattractive person. One of the best "mirrors" they have around it the BS, because they see our hurt, our anger and our dispair, and they know their actions are the cause.

My wife didn't like looking at it either. She didn't behave like your husband's or Carol's husband, but she did everything she could to avoid facing the truth. First she told me it was the OM's fault, then that it was my fault, then that it was the fault of friends who didn't do enough to help her, the the fault of her situation at the time. She constructed an elaborate story about how the OM manipulated her, and prevented her from saying no to him, how he ignored and denied anything she said or did to discourage him, yet she was not raped. There were emails between them that I read and some of this supported her account, but it was also hard to piece the whole thing together because the emails were not in chronological order.

However, for the most part she was being cooperative. She wasn't talking to the OM, and she wasn't doing anything suspicious. There were a couple things that she did which set us back, such as once when I caught her lieing about something.

After two or three years of not getting a clear sensible story (I can't remember exactly when right now), I had enough and decided that I was going to put those emails in order. Once I did, the whole picture became much clearer. I could see that she was a willing participant in the affair, that she was flirting with the OM, throwing him softballs so he could reply with innuendo. I showed this to her and she tried to continue the denial, but not for long.. the evidence was too insurmountable. She caved, and she finally started being honest about the affair. It was a turning point.

So, based on my experience, I'd say that the WS does this to avoid seeing what they really did. A radio program I listed to calls it "causing you to face yourself and think". When a person finally reaches the point where they will face themselves and see what they've become, it is often transformational. But the time it takes varies the with person and circuimstances around them. Sometimes an ultimatium is what it takes, but sometimes that ultimatium comes at the wrong time.

I believe whenever a WS is behaving badly, the BS 'owes' it to them to let them know and be firm about the problem. I've done that with my wife, when she was behaving badly I tried so hard to let her know the damage she was doing. I can't tell you the number of times I pleaded with her to be totally open and honest with me. But it took the ordered email to wake her up, at least partly.

TomJ

I know exactly what you mean. My H did the exact same thing for about the first year. It wasn't until after that he became more honest (not details about affair) but more honest about admitting the hurt he caused me.

He said he didn't try hard because he was ashamed for the most part, not because he wasn't sorry or wanted it to work. He said it's a tough pill to swallow when you realize just what you did. The reality of it he says is hard because as a man you "can't go crying to your girlfriends" ....you have to deal with what you did by yourself (can you tell he's not into MC).

Anyhow, that was over 4 years ago and were still together (23 yrs. now).

That dreaded old saying of "time heals" and "one day at a time" comes into play. Afterall, I remember 2 mths feeling like eternity, but looking back, it's just a baby step and unfortunately thats how it has to go in the process of recovery.

Now my turn.  I am lucky as I get to read all the other wise words first.  My initial reaction was that I did not have much more to add.  Then I re-read my comments to Andria's post in which I was pretty tough.  And yes, I am finding that sometimes now (I am almost a year since d-day now) that I am impatient with the fog cover ups and continuing lies that can go on post A.  There is a fWS here who has recently posted on Open about how he continued to cover up small things in his journey back to be close to his wife.  I know I can be impatient in life and so I try to be more patient than I feel at times.  At two months out I remember I really wanted everything sorted out.. and I felt intensely about things.. I wanted everything to be ok and fine.  Now.. I realise things will never be the same and ok and as they were before.  You can read of journeyes on this site lasting many many years.  Journeys in which recovery is seen to be more a case of accomodation and living with (a bit like I am told addicts learn to live with their past).  So, my message to you is to continue to be determined, and be tough if your heart says to be so.. and be patient at other times (particularly giving yourself time when you need it).  So.. not much advice other than to listen carefully to your heart and try to follow what it is telling you.. My current theory is that my heart is trustworthy deep inside ie it is really only wanting the best for everyone.. There have been many occasions on this site when others have talked about trusting their hearts/ feelings and I can see the wisdom of this.  Also, to get down to that understanding you have to throw off your own conditioned attitudes etc.. and I have struggled with this too.  To be free of all your expectations etc.. is important to be able to see clearly.. and to feel clearly.  So.. if you feel you may be driven by past events, other experiences in relationships etc.. then try to put these aside too and see/ feel clearly how you are right now. 

I hope this helps.

May you be safe and well, happy and contented.. sooner rather than later

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. I appreciate it all very much.

I know that two months isnt a long time, but sheesh, I feel like he should throw me a bone or something.

It is just confusing for him to say that he loves me and wants US, yet he cant show me one simple act of that.

I really feel like everyone else in this twisted A (meaning the 3 other woman) have got more concern than I.

It hurts - I hope that lightbulb for him comes on fast, because I dont know how much more I can take of this.

The only good thing in this whole nightmare is that I have lost 30 lbs. No worries, still a good 10 lbs on the fluffy side and have room to lose a bit more.... I sure rather have paid Jenny Craig though than drop the lbs this way. I guess I should look at it... if we do split... I will at least be a hottie again. (LAUGHING!) Try to find humor in this some way.

I think I am back in the bitter barn again....

Bless all your hearts for your words.

Coral

>It hurts - I hope that lightbulb for him comes on fast, because I dont know how much more I can take of this.

Really, you shouldn't have to "take" any more at all. It should end right now. However, the switch isn't something you have direct access to. I know of cases where the BS has followed the same approach Carol did, but the WS didn't respond. There is something that has to happen in the heart of the WS, independent of what the BS does, BUT many times a crisis created by the BS can give that process a kickstart.

Every situation is different, because each person is different. But truly you shouldn't have to take any more, at all.

TomJ

Thanks Tom.

I dont want to give him threats of I will leave and what not to kick start this. I mean, if I say I am going to leave, I will leave. I am not one to play games. I did mention to him that I thought about leaving this all behind and moving on - he seemed to be better for a few days, but then went right back to the same cold and bitter self. I know if I pack my stuff and say I am done that yes - I will get love and affection from him, yet would he really mean it? Or would it be a case of crap - his life is going to change with me not it in.

Urrrr, it seems so easy, yet so hard. Whenever I feel like I have done someone wrong or dissappointed someone that I love... IE: my son - being the overprotective mom that I am, I may not let him always do the things he wants to even though he is almost 18, so when I feel his dissappointment, I make it a special point to explain why I did what I did and then make it up to him by doing a popcorn and movie night or playing cards with him. I want him to know that his dissappointment is valid, yet explain my reasons and make peace by doing something together. H on the other hand has cause me to be dissappointed yet it seems he has just left it at that. No attempts to explain or make peace.

I do understand that he has to awful inside for what he has done, BUT WHAT ABOUT ME?

That is my new line.... "What about me?" I know it sounds selfish and I have never been one to be selfish, but I really feel this way.

All I see is his selfishness; the A's and now how he deals with the aftermath.

I read some where that an A is biggest form of selfishness.... who ever wrote that, hit the nail on the head. They couldnt be more right!

Thanks again.

Coral

Coral,

Do not get Tom wrong here.  What I did was not a threat.  I was 100% prepared to leave. I kicked him out because I meant what I said. I had never threatened to leave my H before through all of this, so he knew I meant business.  I do not DO threats!!!  Never have.  When I say something I mean it.  And H knew that.  He knew that if he didnt do something fast, the right thing and NOW that he was going to lose me.

I got my ducks in a row...went to teh lawyer, got a seperate bank account, a safe deposit box, and a PO Box, and a credit card all in my own name.  I put money away and I got legal advice.  I planned to leave.  Threats are what we make when we are desperate...this was a plan!  I accepted the fact that my H was never going to come around and I planned accordingly...that's all...and when the moment was right...when I got validation and confirmation...I knew I was doing the right thing...and I took action...these were not merely words...BUT ACTIONS! And as we have all pointed out many, many times...actions speak louder than words.

Take Care...Carol~

Carol,

I know your actions towards your H werent just threats and I certainly wasnt meaning you when I replied to Tom.

I was meaning that if I took actions, plans or threats, I would not do any of them without being 100% sure I could follow through - just as you were sure. AND... even if I followed through, who is to say that his response would be real.... or would it just be the fear of his life changing drastically along with his family and friends knowing all of what he has done. Sometimes I feel as if he stays with me just to keep from the wrath of the world.

Its hard for me to see that any action on H's part at this point if I made the "plan" to leave would be nothing more than his own fears... do I really want him to be with me because he is afraid to hear what the world would say when everyone knew the truth if I was to leave?

I just cant imagine that the way he acts now, so cold and bitter would change if I left or did something drastic.

Didnt mean to offend you Carol and if I did, I am sorry... was only referring to me and not being so sure that a drastic move would turn my H around or if it did - that it would actually be sincere on his part.

Coral

Why be in a relationship with someone who is "cold and bitter"?

May you be safe and well, contented and happy

Dear Coral,
I found this on another site and thought of you. Hugs, E
..............


So many on here are at a loss at what to do with a WS who is
fence sitting, cake-eating, ignoring boundaries, still seeing and/or contacting the other person, etc...

Many BS's are urged to go No Contact with their WS after ALL ELSE has failed.


This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.

Coral,

I was not offended at all and I hope I did not come on too strong. I just hate all of this stuff. I  hate seeing you suffer...I hate seeing anyone suffer. I think some of my anger is starting to come out.  But I am not angry at you Coral.  I am angry at the situation.  I know how much my H's inability to "act" continually hurt me and I know you are feeling much the same way. I needed that old saying "actions not words" to be pounded into me. There were little actions from my H, just enough to keep me hanging.  But nothing real, nothing permanent. All I wanted to do was fix everything.  I did everything I could to save my marriage but nothing worked until my H woke up. I wish it had not taken my completely letting go of him to do so, but it did. 

There are many things the good people here pounded into my head that I understood but could not actually do...they needed to really sink in. That took some time:

1) You cannot change anyone else but yourself.  People have to want to change and most often need something to motivate them to change. 

2) You cannot fix anyone else. Each of us has to deal with our own issues.

3) Actions speak louder than words.  Listen to their words but look at their actions.

4) Nothing changes if nothing changes. You cant keep doing the samething and expect a different result.

5) It takes two to make a marriage work. Both partners must be willing to do whatever it takes and for as long as it takes.

6) Ultimately you are responsible for your own healing. Give yourself the time you need to heal. You can heal whether your WS is remorseful or not.

7) Take care of yourself and learn to "let go" 

Take Care...Carol~ 

Coral,

You have gotten great responses to your post...

I fully agree with all that has been written...

I will also say what Carol said...give your self time to heal...heal yourself first...

You will know when it is time to act...as Carol got all her ducks in a row.. so should you.

Your H is still in the A fog, embarrassed that he was caught...and doesn't want to deal with his issues..so he is rude, nasty...

(((((hugs))))

Pat

Thank you all -

Edie - I love the list. Wow!

I have been reading this ... I must say all of this is hitting so home with me.. so much of the feeling that have been posted about this is how i feel and is what is going on with me...

I just keep opening this and reading it. wondering myself how do i let go.. I read the 180 thing and thought wow i so need to learn that.. all i do is push him and all it does it make things so worse.

Everday seem like a uphill battle that will never end. And i just can't seem to learn to stop worrying about what he is going to do next who he is talking to what he is looking at and why because it just wont stop. he just wont change...

MY H told me my job a stay at home mom is useless and i need to get a job to support the family. He told me that my always wanting him to change does no good and setting rule does no good.. he will not go by them..

I feel hopeless and affraid because of other things that have happen in the last 2 weeks i have now broke out in hives that have cover my hole body and suffering from that..

I feel for you coral.and anybody who is feeling this way about your H. I so understand. BUt when you post things like this is so helps me not to feel alone in my feelings.. thanks you so much for this...

April