Last night I was trying to get dinner on the table and the kids to sit down and eat. H is always saying he doesn't like to come home and eat after work because it makes him sleepy and then he won't get anything else accomplished that night. I am sick of this lame excuse and the fact that when he won't sit and eat with us the kids don't want to sit or eat either. I finally blew up at him last night....but that's not all. I told him there was something else we needed to discuss after the kids went to bed. He said "What?!!!" and demanded to know. So right then and there in front of the kids I brought up the OW. I regret doing it that way because it upset the kids. Not that they knew what we were talking about, but they knew we were yelling. My son later told me he was sad that we were yelling at each other and "don't do that no more." I wanted to cry. I told him I was sorry as did H.
I will try to keep this brief if I can. When I told him I knew that "Ken" was Kim, his eyes kinda widened for a second and he licked his lips. Then he proceeded to tell me that she was a friend and he talked to her because he needed someone to talk to. You know, all the basic bull crap that WS tend to say. He says they talk about what bothers them in their marriages and families and try to offer each other the perspective of the opposite sex. He says she was wary of having a friendship with him like it is because she was concerned a situation like this would arise. She apparently has a jealous H, according to H. I'm sure she wouldn't want him clued in on this. H says he felt like he couldn't talk to me about anything that was going on with us and also knew that if I knew he was talking to a woman I would be angry. Well duh. Yes, so far that sounds like great logic for keeping a "friendship" hidden from your wife. He says she is committed to her husband but just likes having someone to talk to. Okay, maybe that's true on some level. But I have a very hard time believing that "just talking" was the only intention, at least on his part. He has had another "friend", Anna, who was "Aaron" in his cell phone, before old "Ken" came along. I told him I knew about that one too. But the icing on the cake, and one of the first things he actually mentioned when I confronted him was....he says that Kim is actually some sort of undercover person hired by the factory where H used to work to rat out people who are using drugs, stealing from the company, etc. WTF!! Exactly what does that have to do with me? I don't work there and I'm not a drug dealer or user!! What kind of b.s. is that? I laughed, my mom laughed and even the PI laughed when I told him. Not really a ha ha laugh, but you know what I mean. H insists it is true and that there are all kinds of things he could tell me about that she has shared with him. I said "Why would she tell you?!" "Well, we became friends blah, blah, blah.." I'm sure he is burning up the phone lines today telling her that I know about her. He said that he just wanted someone to talk to but he knows he went about it the wrong way. He "swears" that he has never had a relationship with her or anyone else. Not even a kiss, according to him. He says he wants us to work out our problems so that we can talk to each other, be happy and be there for our kids and "make them proud of us" in his words. I think that he is actually concerned about the kids, but the rest sounds pretty hokie pokie to me.
I cried last night and today. I guess when it all came down I did still have a few feelings left inside. I'm not sure how to proceed from here. I told him I don't trust him and have no reason to. He said he understood. But he seemed to have no trouble sleeping last night whereas I tossed and turned and even went to the other bedroom for a while. I just don't know what to do next.
I can identify with not being able to sleep while your spouse snoozes away. My wife did that on D-day while I was awake for three days with any sleep. I couldn't understand how she could not be concerned like I was. I've decided that she didn't feel threatened by the situation, presumably because she wasn't very concerned that I was not willing to reconcile. On the other hand, I was very concerned that she wouldn't be able to stick to reconcilation given the feelings she told me about toward the OM. At the time I thought it was because she indifferent to my fears and suffering.
I think it's good that you've got this out on the table. It sounds as if your marriage could use better communication between you and your husband. Several people here have found it helpful to attend a marriage seminar (with their spouse) that helps them learn better ways to communcate with each other. One that many have attended is Retrouvaille. There is a link to their website in our helpful links. My wife and I attended a Marriage Encounter seminar, which was also helpful. You might consider this, and ask your husband if he'd like to attend one. It could help him learn to come to you with his concerns about the marriage, rather than going to a person such as Kim.
I'm sorry that you're hurting so much. I hope that your husband will care for you and help satisfy the sadness and fear that you feel.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice, Tom. You are definitely right when you say that communication is lacking in our marriage. There has just been a lot of water under the bridge I guess. When the kids were born he totally rejected them and left me to most of their care. I was so hurt and angry about the way he treated them and me that I eventually just closed down. He also lied about other things which led to my distrust of him.
Now he's saying that he wants to work things out with me and wants to work on himself. He says he wants to go to MC. I am torn--I want that because we have 2 young children who would benefit so much more from having parents who are happy and together. On the other hand I really wonder if I can trust him. I don't feel like I am getting the whole story here. I think that some sort of attraction was the beginning of this whole thing. I'm not saying that I want to hear all the explicit details of anything that might have happened. I just feel that there was more than friendship on one or both minds when it all began. I guess I just feel like if I say okay to MC just like that, then I am letting him off the hook. I feel like I want him to feel as sad and uncertain about the future as I have. I want him to squirm and to wonder if I'm going to stay or go. And it's "funny" how there was no rush to work things out or go to MC until he was caught.
Well, it's late and I'm tired after my sleepless night last night. I think I'll turn in and leave all the deep thoughts for tomorrow.
..I reckon what you heard from your H is the story he's been telling *himself*, ie, 'I wasn't doing anything, I was just ...[insert lame excuse here] and she was just [insert other lame excuse here]' which has now been trotted out for your benefit.
Believe me, if he disguised their names on his phone, there was a reason, and it's because he KNOWS, whatever dumb story he trots out to you and himself, that he wasn't supposed to be 'talking' to her. Or them, however many of them there were.
It's a line, and the more you hammer at it, the more of it you will hear. I have to tell you though, it will be a hard one to crack (if you have the time or energy to put into it...) most WSs who have spun themselves great lines of justification about how or why they are 'allowed', 'entitled' or 'supposed' to be doing what they are doing, have a LOT of trouble letting it unravel. They have vested a lot in the story for themselves. And, from my observation, they are often the very folks who are very judgemental about what others do and make a lot of noise about standards and values etc etc etc. Kind of like they are telling themselves how great and good THEY are..
Anyway, you can invest time and agony in trying to get him to see ridiculous story/stories for what they were - or elevate yourself above it all and tell him, flat, that you don't believe one word and if he was being handed the same S***, neither would he.
The trouble is that you sound like you would prefer to believe the best of your H and take what he says at at least some of face value - I know I would have, and did - it took me a long while to see him and his stories for what they were. And, I was easily also intimidated and in a bad position. But....
you can make it out of here. Just don't fall into the trap I did of really wanting to believe the crap story...because then you'll start falling into the trap too.
My recommendation? think about your H as you would about any other person you heard about / saw doing this. Would you believe that story from them? no??!! then don't believe your H either.
Yup, your H will steam and fume with anger because you 'don't believe him' - but he has invested a lot of effort in his story so it would be hard to give up even IF the fussing and anger wasn't all part of the act, which it is. You are being 'gaslighted', dear. Don't believe it, don't get sucked into it, and don't waste your energy on trying to understand it.
Please listen to above advice. I wasted 5 months trying to believe my WS story, wanting to believe the good in her. Two marriage counslers later and 5 months, I finally said enough and quit believing anything and I mean anything she said. Only then did she start toward reality. And the it took another 3 months. There is no quick fix.
My WS went to marriage counsling just so she could say she tried. It was a total waste as she was still invested in the lie or the Fog. Don't get dragged into the fog. When I finally hired a PI, he caught them together two hours before my marriage counsling appointment. Also, you PI should have a GPS tracking device he can put in his car so you can know every move he makes.
I would call OW and have a calm conversation with her. I honestly would call her husband. I would demand phone records and in my case, I should have canceled the home phone. I would tell him that if you find one ounce of evidence that they are still talking that you will put his stuff in the street. He may decide to move out for a little while, but it is better than going to a MC and listen to his spin.
This may seem a little harsh, but I wish I had been a little more harsh. It would have been easier. I am praying for you and your family. & remember that all things pass.
this is just a warning, be careful about taking the line that 'if you find any more' evidence of cheating, etc etc, that you will throw him out. It looks to me like your H has quite a game going in his mind, and saying anything that sounds like threats to him is only going to be a challenge, like waving the red rag to the bull, driving his behavior underground and have him put more and more energy into hiding stuff (and, in his heart of hearts, blaming YOU for the extra energy used up in 'making him do this', too...) after all, the whole thing is, in his eyes, your fault. That's what he has told himself.
I know it is hard and I have yet to take my own advice fully but,
I think you will do better if you aim not to waste YOUR energy following him or his actions or agonising over why and how he is doing things.
TELL him what you want and expect NOW and see if you get that, and if you don't, tell him again. Think about how you will feel respected, valued and treated with the truth, and tell him that. That tells him clearly what you expect and gives him the option to do it, or not do it.
Work out how long you can do this for and stick to it. Give yourself a timeframe. It will make you feel better about what is just a crap situation in every way..
You can be respectful and polite about it, but you MUST speak up. Feeling afraid to speak out just 'buys into' the same sneaking stuff that your H is doing. Keep your own actions honest in your own mind.
This is not to say you have no right to check up on him - you certainly do - and I would go further and say that if he wants to be trusted he should be delighted to have any opportunity he can to show he is trustworthy. But, I can tell you that checking up is going to drain your own energy, every bad discovery is going to knock you sideways and, whilst finding something means that there are things going on, it's not indicative - you will never really know how much more there is to find, and finding nothing does not mean there is nothing to find, either, just that it may be better hidden.
I can also say that feeling powerless and waiting, waiting for the WS to 'do' stuff is one of the worst bits of dealing with the A. If you can take at least some of the power back for yourself by taking your own action and making your own plans, you can reclaim some ground at least. I know I spent a lot of time and energy just agonising - once I sat down with myself and said well this is the way it IS, it was easier to move forward. Not easy, just easier.
Whoever said on another thread that when we become silent we begin to lose ourselves, was quite right. Don't be silent. It IS your life, no matter how much you have offered in the past to share it, even 'give' it, to your WS, and you are allowed to deal with the situation as YOU see fit NOT how your WS tells you that you 'have' to.
You say, "...they talk about what bothers them in their marriages and families and try to offer each other the perspective of the opposite sex."
Ouch, that's a trigger. It's EXACTLY what my H told me that began his A with OW. They had been co-workers when OW started to share/complain/whine/ about her unhappiness with her H - INCLUDING their SEX LIFE! It made my H feel special/important/needed and he listened and counseled her and he turned into her weekly therapist on more than just a couch. UGH.
Yup, that's how it started two years and 3 D-Days ago
Sorry for your pain.
Peace is not just the absence of war; it's an exercise in compassion. -Dalai Lama
Coming to you from JJ
"...they talk about what bothers them in their marriages and families and try to offer each other the perspective of the opposite sex."
I agree with JJ too...OUCH! And this line is load of bull!!! This is the type of "talk" that opens the door to begin the A. The only person you should be talking to about your marital problems is your spouse! And if you need more support there or you dont feel you can talk to your spouse then there is counselling or perhaps your mom/sister/aunt if you truly want a woman's perspective. But when you start to talk to the opposite sex (a non-relative) about your marital issues you have already crossed the line, and you are basically building a case to the OP (and yourself) to justify having an A. This is the gateway to the slippery slope. ANd like C said, he hid this from you and used fake names...he knew it was wrong. ANd I feel there is much more than just "talking" taking place here. And also like C says, NEVER issue an ultimatium unless you can & will follow through with it or you lose all credability.
Please be careful and protect yourself. Stay strong! You are in my thoughts and prayers.
~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
Hi. I am new to this and when I read your post I felt compelled to write a response. I am where you are right now. My husband has done the exact same things that yours has. In fact, it became so stressful that I ended up in a mental hospital 2 weeks ago where I stayed for 4 days. It was actually a relief to not have to think about what was going on back home. My husband has done the thing with the fake names in the phone and making the excuses. Like all the other responders said, it's a bunch of bull and they know it. Just 3 days ago I had to call up one of his "friends" to tell her to stop calling him and get off his yahoo 360 page. I was not mean or rude, just direct. She wrote me back with a dig about me having mental problems because my husband told her I had a nervous breakdown.
Like you, i have gotten many assurances that he wants to work everything out, it's hard to believe anymore. I told him today that one more time, just one more and I'm done. I mean it. We try and love our husbands but how much can we take? I have spent the past year lying awake at night like you, agonizing over his dirty deeds while he sleeps like a baby. it drives me nuts, but I'm not going to keep letting myself get wrapped up in his mess. I have spied and poked and done many things to obtain info and at this point it has become an obsession, closing out the positive things I could be doing instead of worrying about what he is doing. I hope you (and I) will think harder about ourselves and our families and do what is right for us. If your husband is going to change it will be because he wants to and not because of anything you do or say. I wish you luck.
I will also say that my FWS told me lies 23 yrs. ago first D-day...I believed the lies and he was back having ONS's short A's a year later....He blamed me for problems...he was perfect...he worked hard and when traveling had ONS's and short A's...he could justify this behavior....he was a good father when he was home.
I agree that you don't give an ultimatum unless you mean what you say..
If your H is willing to see a MC...try going.... a good MC may be able to help you and may also see the actions of your h as needing help, and your H may see that he is wrong...best case
....your H can also walk in and snow the MC...as JJ's H did, as mine did for 4 months then an ultimatum from me because I didn't buy what my H was saying,,,he finally told me the truth. He did withhold some thing but that I understood why when he told me.
My H has slept well thru out all the issues dealing with his A's ...I am the one who didn't get any sleep...that is the trauma back lash that we experience.
((((((hugs))))))
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
Honest talk about bothersome things should have only one intended result, ie, solving the problem. If that's not why the talking is going on, then why is it happening?
There is plenty of research about how people use talk and why, and certainly men and women tend to talk in somewhat different ways and for different reasons. Notwithstanding that,like so many others responding to this post,this kind of story always hits a nasty chord with me.
Beyond venting off annoyance and frustration, which hould be pretty brief, complaints about anyone/anything should have the intention of seeking a solution to the issue.
Otherwise, it's pretty obvious that if the complaints continue and the cause is never addressed or the folks concerned don't remove themselves from the situation then either they are willing (for whatever reason) for the issue/ problem to remain right there in front of them,
or there is some other motive for doing the complaining.
In that early A stage, so, so, SO many people seem to use that 'I can't talk to my H / W' line...and when you take a step back, it looks so much like the crap line that it really is, you wonder how people still fall for it.
Yup,only preaching to the converted here, and, y'all can guess where my frustration comes from - it's that bing, bing, bing factor!
I asked my H once why, if there were things he did / didn't want me to do, he never told me so, as I would have been delighted to solve the mystery of what was 'bothering' him, as well as having
the opportunity of doing something to enhance our relationship. He didn't ever give me an answer.
Over time I have worked out that a lot of what 'bothered' him was not actually real anyway, he had inflated and / or imagined it. As for the rest, well, if he gave me the opportunity to fix things up, then the 'problems' we were having would go right away, and what would he talk to
OW about then??!!
Better to keep telling himself and OW how bad things were and keep the whole fantasy tragedy alive than admit to himself and to her that it was a story to keep her hooked. And then of course OW was doing just the same. They were really in a storybook world, one they were
inventing for themselves.
No one else understood them? Oh yeah - well - they do say you have to have a certain talent to believe in fairy stories. First, you have to WANT to...and BING, there is the answer, folks!
I gotta say that As sure bring out the cynicism in me. The worst thing for me was I saw both H & OW cutting off their own noses - getting nastier and nastier to their spouses to keep the story they were telling each other alive.
They were actually heading to where they were making a version of the very situation they had been describing come true. Incredibly destructive - getting angrier and angrier with their spouses for their genuine efforts to 'help' them, because that would wreck the story and expose the truth.
This is what I meant by 'don't waste your energy' trying to unravel the story. The sheer self deception which has gone on is really tiring and difficult to deal with . Spend your energy on yourself, it's a better use of precious resources..
I really do appreciate everyone's responses. I actually typed out a whole post and then it didn't go through for some reason. So I'll just keep it brief. I think H is giving me a load of crap too. It had been a week since I confronted him and he still hadn't taken OW's # out of his phone. He only did it when I brought it up. I'm sure he still knows the # with or without it being in his phone. It's hard to believe that he really wants to change. In my heart I just don't believe that he is going to stop having contact with her. Should I even try MC? Like everyone else I very much want a happy marriage and for my kids to have a happy family. But I wonder if there is any hope of that. H is a person who really seems to crave and need a lot of attention from people in general. If OW was discussing her problems with him, that no doubt made H feel like a real hero. He likes to joke around and make people laugh and loves it when all eyes are on him. I'm sorry, I can't be his constant cheerleader.
I'm just depressed and feeling worthless. I wonder if I would ever be able to find an honest man I could believe in. And could I ever fully trust again? I'm just not sure where I am going right now.
