We all emphasise NC because, eventually, that is what it will take if you are truly going to reconcile. I think that everyone also realises that in the initial stages after D-day, this can be a well-nigh impossibility. My W not only maintained contact, she stepped it up, and eventually left us (daughter & I). It took nearly a year for her to totally establish NC, on her own, when she emerged from the fog. Right now your W is in the fog of the A. With time, she may come out of it, and then realise for HERSELF that NC is needed. The fact is, some HH members have WS who never came out of the fog, or maintained contact with the OP for years. There's no way of telling for sure where your story will go.
For now, you have to do whatever you have to in order to make the best of a bad situation. Ultimately, while everyone here may offer advice, anecdotal evidence from their own experience, and good insight, no-one is in YOUR shoes. If you feel it necessary to ignore the advice here because you know what is going to work in your situation, then so be it. No one will think less of you. I say this with a little authority, because I flew in the face of much established opinion for a long time.
You know your wife, we don't. You understand your dynamic as a couple, and you know your social milieu. All we can do is cheer from the touchline, and offer our best insight and sympathy/empathy.
Dave
P.S.
I AM going to add, however, that limited and chaperoned contact should be a temporary measure. If you and your W maintain contact with this bloke, it will be a canker that eats away at your marriage in many ways, both overt and subtle. You are giving yourself breathing space, and that is necessary. Ultimately, though, you will have to slay the beast, and sever contact with him completely. With luck, the fog will eventually lift and she'll see him for what he is.
This message has been edited by shoozul on Jun 18, 2007 7:00 PM This message has been edited by shoozul on Jun 18, 2007 6:45 PM
My hope is that A) she genuinely has repented and won't do anything stupid again (and anyway, if she were then why should it be with the same guy) and B) as time goes on she will be able to drop him as a friend because she builds up other friends to replace him.
In the mean time this is the best that is on offer.
It genuinely is take it or leave it. I want to try fix my M so I have to take it really. I do understand where she is coming from to an extent.
I understand that you feel like you have to make a deal with the devil to keep your marriage.
Of course your wife wants to keep a relationship with OM. If she can get you to go along with her demands (by whatever means necessary), then she gets to sit on the fence and have attention from BOTH of you.
Is this how YOU want to be treated? That is what you have to ask yourself. I understand that sometimes we BS feel so low that groveling is looking up, but really, don't you deserve better than this?
I full well know that after Dday, we BS feel so defeated, so rejected, that we will often accept stale crumbs and feel grateful to get them. Sometimes it just takes a while for us to build up enough strength to say "No more. It's me or the highway."
I am NOT, I repeat, NOT suggesting that you do anything you don't feel right about doing, but I will tell you that when faced with similar situations, some BS have packed up the WS suitcase, handed it to them (or dropped it off at their workplaces), and said "Have at it. You want to be with OP. Go for it."
Some WS have lasted a couple of weeks. Many have come home in a couple of days. Some only lasted a few hours away from BS.
Some BS have tried to stay in the home with WS playing both sides. For them, doing the 180 has helped, if not the marriage, at least the BS.
Whatever action you choose to do, your decision won't be fixed in stone, and you WILL get support from us here.
I just know that when WS maintain ANY contact, however innocent seeming, the gut-wrenching pain continues for the BS.
You do what you need to do to maintain your sanity.
Gentle fairy hugs and just my upset for you fairy hugs,
fairyfriend
edited for a typo
This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Jun 18, 2007 7:42 PM
Others: Not that I'm not grateful for all your support over the past 8 days, but given that I expressely said not to tell me that it was essential, that wasn't very thoughtful of you. I don't care whether it is essential or not quite frankly, just don't tell me it is!
Coral: Thank you for a good question. I will try to explain as clearly as possible, then people might understand better. This is laced with ironic problems, so try to see past them and not latch on to the "obvious" details
Early on in our relationship (dating) we had a fall out and I split up with her, partly due to trouble with me and my ex at the time. We got back together after a week, but then she told me that during the time we were apart, an ex of hers had come round to comfort her and before she knew it one thing had led to another, but she pushed him away before sex actually happened. This is the man who later in the story raped her. However, at the time I felt increadibly threatened by him, so I enforced a blanket ban on him. I hadn't really realised what I was doing, and she took it further than I had ever really intended it. She cut herself off from her main group of friend. She has always somewhat resented this, even though I hadn't realised she was cutting herself off because of that (I had flown off the handle and made a comment she stuck to for the next 2 years).
After about a year of happy marriage, she started having big problems at work, which pushed her into a pretty black depression. This was no doubt made worse by having very few friends. At this point, where she needed friends, it no doubt became very strong in her mind the thought that the reason she had no friends was because of me.
This eventually came out in the open somewhat (not totally) and she made contact with these friends again just before christmas. We started of seeing them as a couple, and then she also started seeing them on her own. This initially seemed to improve things, but what we didn't look at was our marriage. The depression and accompanying lack of talking was starting to put massive dents in it, and so things stopped improving for her and started heading downhill again. She began to remember her self from before the depression and the good times she had, but wasn't associating me in that so much I don't think - rather she was flirting and boosting her low self esteem by being back in a group of friends. From here on boundaries became a problem.
For me over this time I had slipped from husband into doting carer, which meant the flame had died. This meant I was no longer making her feel sexy etc. For me this was difficult because (posts _passim_) I found it very difficult being assertive in the relationship - particularly in the bedroom - possible due to relative inexperiance. I I had also lost my circle of friends in the process by devoting myself too much to her. I started also to get back in touch with some of my friends.
From here things got weirder. She started to tell me off for "pissing on her" - explaining that she meant like a dog would mark its territory, whenever I was out with her and her friends she though I was doing this. This later became a tool that was abused in the affair. As she was hitting a particularly low point, a friend from the group that she had known before but not had chance to get back in touch with yet, died (age 24 - blood clot).
This brought her to a new low, where she blamed me for not allowing her to contact this man, and now she never can. Also she said she hated that we "do nothing" and felt her life was wasting - she could die any moment. This clearly put some distance between us, but we also agreed to try and persue our own lives, friends and interests outside of the M. In light of the effect of the funeral, her GP decided to increase her meds to a level that GP admitted never having prescribed before (she had to look it up in a book first - for anyone who wants to know it was Venlafaxin @ 225mg per day). However a couple of weeks later at the funeral (posts _passim_) it appears she got into a repeat situation of being upset and very drunk (combined with meds) only this time she didn't fight him off and he did what he wanted with her.
She called me two days later to tell me about this, and I was clearly destraught. This put massive strain on our M and so she had to find someone else to talk to - as did I. She turned to the soon to be OM. This guy had become her "best friend" in the group of friends she had rejoined, and she had told me they were very close. He seemed an ok kind of guy, so I trusted her. Then the A started.
That happened for 4 weeks ish and we are now at DD+8 days.
We have discussed the NC thing plenty. But she has bluntly said to me that she thinks that if I force he to cut all contact then she will lose all her friends again and resent me all over again, and she will never get out of her cycle of depression. And that is her bottom line.
Hopefully after that very long repeat, people can see a lot of things. Yes you can see a lot of "stand up for yourself" or you are setting yourself up for failure. But that is all too easy for you lot to say, and doesn't help me - it just gets me down.
She has told a female friend about the A and so she now has both someone to talk to, someone who knows who she can stay with when I go away, and someone who will be there if ever the OM is there. One day NC may happen but I can't force it on her now.
On top of all this she is quite ill with a stomach problem (still) and has exams for her job. She has told me that we can't spend every night argueing/discussing/talking about this because she isn't getting any work done and will get fired if she fails her exams (which is not an idle threat). She has suggested she might go stay with her parents for revision week (where she doesn't need to be in london) but she has also said that if we have one more night where I'm bringing everything up so she can't work she will move out into a hotel.
Adam - there is no judgement here. No one thinks that because you are accepting that contact is part of your/her personal recovery process that you are doing it wrong or bad or whatever. Someone will probably say it again when your post gets read in a week and they haven't seen or have forgotten this post.
You are welcome to toss anyone's opinion or idea out. We all accept that we are just typing so we aren't interacting with all of our senses and just doing what we can to help. Which sometimes means we stress an area that seems to help most of the people most of the time - like NC. Just ignore us if we're being repetitive in our assertions. Really, we won't take it personally.
We each have our own path to travel. There was a point where I thought I wouldn't say anything and let my suspicions run their course. If he had to do this thing then I'd let him get it out of his system and be done with it. I just couldn't live with that, I had to stop the pain and call him on the carpet. If I found out now that there was still contact, I'd tell him he needed to stop it because it was too painful, that's how I would take care of me. If you can stand the pain, you're amazing. I'm sure if you read the many stories on here you will find that there was contact and ultimate recovery in others there was contact and divorce. There's no right way to do this, we all know that.
May your path be traveled swiftly and the pain end sooner rather than later.
You are in my prayers.
Adam, it is one of the strengths of this forum that the members often call it the way they see it. I know of several BS (including myself) who have been told things they would rather not have heard. Some have even left the forum because of it. Some have returned, some haven't. The fact is, any assertions are offered not in disregard of your feelings, but because the people here care, feel your pain, and have been round the block a few times.
I am sure no one intended to upset or hurt you. I would, however, stake money on it not being the last time you will get your feathers ruffled. Dealing with an A is hard, and you are on a long, painful path hopefully towards healing. Please believe that we are all concerned for you, and our opinions and advice are offered out of our own bitter experiences.
Feel free to accept or reject anything offered here, after all, opinions are like backsides - everyone's got one!
You mentioned that you W's GP had prescribed her meds for her? I am sorry to bang on about this, but has she seen a psychiatrist? GP's are limited in their ability to diagnose and treat mental illness. My W's GP told her she was fine, and didn't need any medication - despite the fact that her SA psychiatrist had provided a detailed clinical report on her conditions, history and treatment in SA. What you have described in your last post could ALMOST be my own W just over a year ago!! I also got blamed for disempowering her by doing too much, dumping her in a rural hell-hole, never taking us out, coming between her and our daughter, emotionally abandoning her, the list goes on.
If she isn't seeing a psych, then talk to her about asking for a referral - at least to get an ongoing review of her medication. You will struggle as a couple, regardless of the A, if she is in an ongoing depression. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, what my W went through, and I fear that yours may be going through something similar.
And remember, if you need us, there is always SOMEONE looking in here, one way or another.
Dave
This message has been edited by shoozul on Jun 19, 2007 4:56 AM
Thanks for you advice. And thank you very much dave for your undertanding - it is a big comfort.
One of the things I'm noticing about the NC comments on here are that they seem to fall into three categories, none of which match above. This itself could be for two reasons - one everyone is different and this case is just that, or two I'm deluded in thinking that it isn't number 2,
1) OP is a work colleague (Clearly not relevant here)
2) WS wants to see OP for continuing A, either openly or behind BS back
3) NC
She IS making a big effort to try and reassure me that she does not want to continue the A, or anything similar. In the cases I'm reading of number 2, I haven't seen people talk about this?
No comments or suggestions, sorry. Im just thinking of you and I hope you are feeling better. One breath at a time, one foot in front of the other, you will get through this. Remember no matter what, we are here for you and we all care about you. Hope you have a good day.
Your situation sounds very much like a sticky wicket to say the least. No one at this forum wants you to hurt anymore than you already have because we have been there, and we know how it feels. From reading your story, it certainly seems like Dave (Shoozul) can most relate because of the similarities.
I hope that you and your wife BOTH heal. When/if your wife gets totally out of the fog and much healthier mentally and emotionally, there is a good chance that SHE will choose NC with her OP because SHE won't want anything more to do with him. And really, that would be the best answer.
I am sorry you are hurting. I will just say that no matter what your situation is, the choice to have an affair was hers. I can certainly understand how you feel boxed in by her demands. You love her, and you don't want to do anything to hurt her more than she is already hurting.
Thank you fairyfriend, that was uplifting. That she eventually choses NC is my only hope. If there is one things I've learnt through all this its that I can't protect her from things, or push her around, she has made her mistake and she has to deal with it. If I tell her she can't talk to him, she'd always hate me for it because she wouldn't understand the damage it could do. If she does talk to him, and still manages to stay faithful, then that will be a good test of her intent, and she should also learn why I wanted NC in the first place.
We'll see what happens.
On an aside, I am also wondering about asking her to move out. She has a revision week coming up (so no work) and her friend suggested it might be an idea if she went and stayed with her parents or brother.
Also this friend has offered that she could stay at theirs if neccessary.
I don't want us to split up, but the space might be good. We could then see each other when we wanted to, not just because we arrived home. I might bring it up at our first MC tomorrow.
There are at least a couple of other scenario where your (1) condition applies. For example, one is where the OP is a member of the BS's family, another is where the OP is a member of the same community and a decision is made to stay in the same community.
The NC decision is based on two needs. The first is the belief that the WS & OP's relationship is built on the contact that they have. Breaking contact breaks the relationship. The reason the "no contact" limit is set is because even small amounts of contact are thought to trigger the emotional memories and desires of the WS, especially during the first 2-4 weeks after the affair is ended.
The second need that drive this policy is for the sensitivity the BS experiences that is caused by the trauma the affair. Most BS have a great fear that any contact between their spouse and the OP can lead back to the affair. Even after many years of reconcilation I think this is something I would still fear.
Ultimately the comments that others have made is correct... We offer to you what we have learned, but you are free to apply it to your situation however you wish. We don't judge the path you take, even if we believe that it's the harder path. It's YOUR healing, not ours, and the path you take is the one YOU need to take.
After reading your story, my primary thought is why do you believe it's YOUR fault that your wife had to give up her friends simply because you asked her to set a reasonable boundary as a consequence of her inappropriate contact between her and her ex (ex-husband?)? I don't see how that is your fault.
but it isn't always about believing you've done something wrong, as causing something.
I don't actually believe I did anything wrong by asking her not to see her ex (boyfriend), however I do believe that it did a lot of damage to her mental health and our relationship. Does the distinction make sense?
Perhaps if I did do anything wrong (note the perhaps) then it was that I didn't explain my reasons and motives and why I wanted it. Because she never understood it bred resentment.
I believe the same might apply now. We all know it would be better to have total NC, but if I force that on her this isn't going to work. I've made her understand some of my fears, but she is confident that she does not have any feelings for him like that any more. If it acts as a trigger for her when she meets him, then she might understand. Or she might go back to him. If she goes back to him then I am as good as divorced. If she doesn't we have a shot at this. It doesn't HAVE to be all or nothing, but her demand raised the stakes as far as I'm concerned. She is squeezing extra trust out of me, which means that betrayel at THAT level will be unrecoverable from.
One comment I could make is that I don't really trust her with ANY men. I don't actually think he is that special. I'm more concerned to be honest that while I'm watching him another guy comes along. I think it is more likely that any second A will be with a new guy than the old one. And no-one would suggest she have NC with all men.
I understand exactly what you are saying, Adam. One commonality is very often that WS do not have a clear understanding and enforcement of boundaries. Certainly my H did not. However, in dealing with the aftermath of Dday #2 and his A, he has come to understand the importance of boundaries. And in fact, he has dealt with a couple of situations where he really thought about the potential for trouble and decided that he needed to put a boundary up to protect himself and our marriage. He made those decisions on his own and told me about them afterwards. Obviously, I was elated that he finally, FINALLY, understood the necessity for them. Of course, when people enforce their own boundaries, we don't worry nearly as much, if at all, about them making poor choices.
I just hope your wife will eventually grasp the importance of boundaries and put her own in place.
I understand why you feel so defeated right now. Please take care of yourself. You are the only one who can.
Encouraging fairy hugs,
fairyfriend
edited to add: Thank you, Adam. We hope that what we write will encourage, comfort and uplift others here. This is not a huge community, but it is a close-knit, gentle one.
This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Jun 19, 2007 9:35 AM
First off – Thank you Adam for perhaps repeating your situation. I understand much better now.
Yes, my H fell into the category of working with the OP, so I was sort of stuck in the situation of not wanting him to be without a job, but yet had to deal with him seeing her every day. He was fired from his job this past February and a week after that was when he cut all ties with her. For him, as long as he was seeing any of them (there were 4 over 2 years) the A(s) continued.
I do think it is possible though for a WS / FWS to still have contact; work related, mutual friends, or whatever with an OP and not continue the A. My H just wasn’t one of those people.
I really feel like for me that NC worked in two ways. As the BS, when NC was finally established, I felt SO much better. I didn’t have to worry about where he was and etc. To top it off, it gave me a bit of satisfaction hearing him tell each one the OW that he no longer wanted anything to do with them. After 7 months from D day 1 of many, continued lies, A(s) and so on – I really felt I deserved that. Secondly as I sated above, my H would have never ended his A(s) on his own as long as he still saw these OW through work. But again, not everyone is like my H.
Marriage is about sacrifices. It sounds like you are able to accept that she may still have some contact with this person for her to be able to keep her mutual friends. Just like me, I accepted that my H would have contact with these OW while he continued his job with them. I accepted this in the beginning as I so wanted my marriage to work. I think at that point I would have done anything or allowed H anything to keep my marriage. (I even wonder if I would have caved to the A(s) and looked the other way just to keep my marriage.) As time went on, I saw that the contact with these OW for my H was just prolonging the A(s) and making me deteriorate as a wife, person and mother. I spent so much time worrying about him and them…. Ohhhhh the hours lost! Finally when he was fired and he no longer had ANY reason to see these OP, it ended. Thank goodness for my sanity and my health!
Anyhow, what I was trying to say is that NC is helpful, but I think there are circumstances where it isn’t possible. If the WS/FWS is strong enough to handle it along with the BS – I think it is doable. But again the BS, YOU, has to accept it as well and it sounds like you are willing to do that. I understand your position as I was there once as well. I kept hearing advice of NC, NC, NC, yet I knew it was impossible as he worked with her. I understand your hesitation, agitation and etc with people that advise that at this time. We can all hear all the advice in the world, but no one has walked in our shoes but us and no one can apply the appropriate advice to our lives, but us.
It’s doable Adam – even with contact occasionally happening. For so many of us it wasn’t doable with any contact and that may be why you hear NC, NC, NC.
You will feel your way through this process and you will take and leave advice that is given to you. I did the same thing. Now when I look back at the past year (D day 1 anniversary is July 12th) I see how everyone on HH had my best interest at heart. I may not have liked what they said at the time, but they did.
I am so sorry that you are traveling this road. You have found a good place here on HH. Good people and a great place to vent.
I wish you well Adam, I wish your wife well.
Coral
"A discovery is said to be an accident meeting a prepared mind."
>Perhaps if I did do anything wrong (note the perhaps) then it was that I didn't explain my reasons and motives and why I wanted it. Because she never understood it bred resentment.
OK, but maybe the real issue is how your wife dealt with the new boundary. In addition, I believe that communication break downs are often due to both parties failure to communicate. From the sounds of it, she didn't share her interpretation of your comments, and she didn't share how it was affecting her. She didn't seek out better ways of dealing with the situation she understood she was in. Were her mental health issues caused by the situation regarding her friends, or was it something else that might have been present regardless of that?
My wife's affair came at a time when I was spending the week away from her, but spending the weekends at home. She didn't cope with that situation, which was prolonged by a couple of months by my own issues. However, the situation didn't cause the affair, and my role in creating the situation doesn't make me at all responsible for it. I can understand your desire to avoid putting that 'burden' on your wife again, I felt the same. We made compromises to try to avoid that again, but I also had to guard against over compensating for my wife's lapse of integrity.
