So as not to threadjack Hartbroken's recent post, I wanted to separate out something I saw in a reply from JJ.
JJ - It sounds like you and Hartbroken were in chat together and had a discussion regarding true remorse. In your reply, you said one of the things your FWS ended up doing was an apology letter to OW's H.
I've asked my H since very early on after our DDay, what my H thought he should do to apologize to his OW's H. Wow! Lots of blustery stammering and phrases like "Not my place to do that" "Dont want to encourage contact" and the big "I don't know".
I'm wondering how/when your H's letter got written and sent. I know there is a lot of strong feeling on HH about the very vital line in the sand about NC - - from either side to any party. There is so much wisdom in that, but I struggle with the very real knowledge that my H's OW was lying to her H after I called him on DDay +1 - - both to be less punished by him, and to help pave the way for her to continue having A's with others...maybe even hoping to continue the A with my H! I have always felt like her H deserved (a) an apology - not because I asked it of my H, but because its the right thing to do and; (b) the truth of what really happened.
I fear a bit of the flak I may get for opening up this can of worms, but sometimes you gotta put on your courage suit to grow and learn. Thanks to anyone who wants to share their opinion on this. BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
I am SO with you on this topic. Really, apologies are due to both BS in both marriages, regardless of gender. Will we get them? Probably not, most of the time.
I know when my H and I have talked about his A, he said OW's H just didn't enter his mind. It's like OW's H was the fantasy. He really did not think about the fact that BOTH BS and their marriages were hurt by his and OW's behavior.
I have told my H that he really does owe OW's H an apology, but because his A ended a little over four years ago, he feels that too much time has passed and that apologizing to OW's H at this late date (years after they divorced--mainly from what we know because OW's H got fed up with OW's continued lying and affairs) would only dredge up painful memories for OW's H. (I can't help feeling that perhaps my H is a bit afraid of how OW's H might react based on everything she told my H. I believe she was telling a lot of lies about her H. I do believe he was often angry with her, but I think it was because she cheated on him numerous times and he was furious with her over her behavior.)
I got a half-assed, self-justifying apology from OW a year after Dday #2 when I emailed her. But honestly, she was still so delusional about herself, their A, my H, that her words were no consolation to me at all.
I say if there are apologies made, they MUST be sincere with no justifying or lying to BS. Otherwise, they only worsen an already awful situation.
Just my fairy cents' worth,
fairyfriend
edited for a typo and for bad fairy math!
This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Jun 26, 2007 2:17 PM This message has been edited by fairyfriend on Jun 26, 2007 2:16 PM
I attended a 12-step program called Celebrate Recovery for awhile. They are a Christian based program and have support groups for everything from drug and alcohol abuse, anger management, and co-dependency and enablers (which is why I went). Anyway, as anyone familiar with 12-step programs knows, there is a step dealing with making amends. This step comes of course, AFTER the individual has admitted he/she has a problem and taken responsibility. Making amends is a very important step, but it is acknowledged that it is not always possible to make amends, either because of death or not being able to locate the injured party OR because to do so would cause harm. Since making amends has a two-fold purpose, one to do with the "wrongdoer" (for lack of a better word I cannot think of this minute) trying to "right" things with those he/she has harmed and the second purpose to help the injured party, the program stressed over and over that the making of amends should only be done when it does not cause further harm or hurt or pain to the injured party.
Does that help clarify it at all BlueIris? I don't mean to put words in FF's mouth, but I think that is what she is saying too. Her H trying to make amends with the OW's exH would probably do more harm than good.
I think this all depends on the people involved, and if they truly believe it will help.
As far as an apology from the OW...this November first it will be 6 years since D-day. If I were to get an apology from the OW today or anytime in the foreseeable future, I would welcome it. It would not hurt me in the least, in fact it would bring about some peace. The peace would be from the knowledge that even at this late date she was able realize the harm she did. In that realization, I would hope she could be a better person.
I also like to add, that I would have welcome an apology anytime between now and D-day, even though I saw it as unlikely to come and still do.
Like you, I would appreciate a truly sincere, APOLOGETIC letter from OW--one in which she took complete responsibility for her poor choices. The lies that she told me ("we did meet a couple of times at the Dunes..... i NEVER went there for sex.... i went to see [my WS]), her justifications ("is it an affair if you talk to someone online, or on the phone and are intimate a couple of times in a 5-6-7 year time period????.....i never thought of it as an affair.... maybe i'm wrong......... maybe it was") and her use of the religion card ("I do know that we all make mistakes and if God can forgive us for the sins and mistakes we've made then if we love someone we should be able to forgive them also.") Please, give me a break! That was my H's OW's idea of an apology.
She was about as sorry as Hitler was.
She was just sorry she got caught.
If OW were to come to a true understanding of her behavior, of the damage done to me and my family (and multiple other families, as she was a serial affairista), take COMPLETE responsibility for her poor choices, and offer me a sincere apology, I would take it gracefully.
But I am not holding my breath because if I did, I would only turn blue, pass out, and start breathing again autonomously anyway, so why bother?
I had the OW call me to apologize to me which revealed D-Day3. And I appreciated it very much and it also let me know that it was over for good. It was a very sincere apology even though filled with excuses but she still took responcibility for her actions. As much as I dreaded answering the phone when I saw her name on caller ID I am now very glad that I listened.
I have yet to receive a true authentic apology from my WH, so I am certainly not expecting one from OW OR for him to apologize to OW's exH. But, of course, it would be nice.
I just wanted to thank you for finding the "conduct disorders" websight. I am using it to post there about my son and his difficult behaviours,,,.
I know you guys here don't get it unless you have a child with multiple special needs and why I need my husband close by to get me through the days with this child.
These people at this other sight get why there are often days and sometimes "many" when you feel your child is causing you so much pain, taking all your energy,,,. Many will say, this child is ruining my life (but we do LOVE OUR CHILDREN). Many wish they could run away from there children.
Again, I know many of you here won't get my attitude, my days, but these people "GET IT". Again, thank you very very very much for finding this sight for me. I am very thankful!
I asked my H to write a letter of apology just days after I told OW's H of the affair. I wanted him to face what he had done.....and take resposibility for it. Since OW and her H were friends of ours, it was difficult for him to do, but he sincerely is sorry for causing so much pain and willing wrote the letter. Shortly after that, OW wrote me a letter of apolgoy.....unfortunately, most of it was a regurgitation of what my H had written to her H, and sounded very insincere. I believe she is just sorry she got caught. And so....I have not accepted her apology and after 5 months, I cannot forgive her. I'm not sure there is much she could have said that would have made a difference.....perhaps if she would have immediately responded when I told her (email) that I knew about the A. I do believe that letters of apology SHOULD be written....if nothing else, they are at least, an acknowledment that you exist and have been hurt.
