We have had a pretty good week and a half since D-Day3. Until last night, I was having a bad day a few flashbacks really brought me down. H asked me a few times what was wrong and I told him that a flashback made me sad and then he asked me again and I said "I just don't know why you did this(continuing contact and lying) and I don't know how you could say that you were trying to work on our marriage while you were doing that." Things got very quite and he said that he was sorry and that was it. No hug no compassion or support. I went outside and wondered why I said it. I really feel like now is not the time to attack him over anything, I feel like I can tell him how I feel but that it is not productive to lash out at him. And for the rest of the night it was silent I tried to talk to him but he closed himself off and it is pointless to try to talk to him. So this morning I wrote him a note explaining a lot of my feeling and why I said what I did and he still wouldn't talk he left for work still without talking to me so I waited a while and then I called him and asked what was the problem and he told me that the Question I asked him really hurt him and that he had answered it already (he said that he was really in love with her and couldn't maintain NC) and I explained that I understood that he had already answered it but that I am really struggling with this issue right now and that why I said it is that that question is bouncing around my head all day everyday especially that part about how he can say that he was working on our marriage while he was telling her that he loved her and not telling me that he loved me.

How do we move past this issue? I feel like he doesn't really want to look at this issue and that is why he had this reaction. I have unresolved problems with this and I need to look at some aspect of this issue what do I do if this is the reaction every time I broach this subject?

Other than this we have made a lot of progress he is very remorseful and is spending a lot more quality time with the boys and I. And he has been very open to a lot of the questions I have asked and I have had a few bad days and he has hugged me and just held me until I could pull myself back together again. Should I let this particular question rest for a while until he has a firmer grip on his emotions ? Any suggestions or related stories would be great.
Kelly

Kelly,

I am so sorry you are hurting. My guess is that your H still has a long way to come to be clear of the A fog. While I can not speak for any WS, I can say that it seems most WS who claim to have loved OP realize after they are no longer in the fog that what they really loved was the escape, the fantasy, the way they felt when with the OP. Of course we BS hurt no matter WHAT the WS says because we are the BS. I know for me I asked my H why he didn't leave me/divorce me if the A was so incredible. His answer was that that was not what he wanted. He wanted both the stability of a home and the escape of the fantasy. But in the end, he had enough muddled sense to know at least at some level that the A wasn't reality.

I don't remember how far out from Dday you are, but I would suggest that your H isn't far out enough to have figured out that he didn't really "love" the OW. He loved the escape. If he REALLY loved OW, why not leave you to be with her 24/7? I think it's because being with her 24/7 would mean that the fantasy would quickly dissolve and he would be left with even more problems than he had already caused.

Time is necessary for EVERYONE involved to heal. You are not being unreasonable. You are just hurting. So sorry, dear.

Gentle fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

edited to correct comprehension error and again because apparently I can neither type nor proofread with any great ability! (Must be time for new bifocals! Eek!)

Good morning, Kelly.

Its interesting that he said your question hurt him.

I'm mulling that over and trying to see what it is that means. Does it hurt him because he feels guilty? Does it hurt him because he feels you mistrusted his answer? Is he trying to reverse roles and shift himself into the victim category? Is there much more to it than that? Only he knows.

I understand very much why you would ask the question. That he is working on your marriage and feeling love and the need for contact with OW are not compatible notions. This would bounce in my head, too, trying to find the logic within his thought process.

In our house, there has not been a break in NC that I am aware of. But this same illogical thinking was at the core of a lot of my H's and my conversations. He is adament that he loved me throughout the A. But to me, love is not just a feeling; it is a verb that by definition would not allow for him to do the detrimental damage that an A necessarily causes. I can't begin to count the number of conversations we've had where that quietness descended on and from him, and instead of talking things through, he shut down emotionally with the words, "I'm sorry." It almost felt less like what he was feeling, and more like his strategic ploy to make the topic end, by allowing me "the point". But this isn't a game I'm playing where I'm trying to make him feel bad. I'm trying desperately to comprehend and understand. I need that comprehension to begin to move past this horror. I also need it to look ahead and guard me/guide me in a continuation of this M. And honestly, for the M to heal, WS needs to comprehend what happened for them to heal, and for the marriage to heal.

Perhaps, your H's response to what I'm saying would be again, he just loved her. But there are other layers to what was missing within your H's life, or something he was running from, that led him to conduct an A. Otherwise, why not do things in the "proper order" and end the marriage and begin the new life with OW?

I do think that you're instincts are very right on target with not lashing out, or badgering him. That's not going to help him get in touch with whatever complicated emotional turmoil is churning inside him. And, though there needs to be a point where he can access these feelings and share them with you, forcing the issue probably won't help, imho.

Perhaps just letting him know that you understand he's hurting. Let him know you're hurting, too. It can be something you go through together. It will help if you share the pain and are honest with each other about your feelings. I don't think it would be a bad thing to point out that not sharing his feelings with you ( and then later, sharing his feelings outside the M) is a huge reason how things got where they are now.

You sound in a quiet, thoughtful (though sad) place. It can be a place of clarity and wisdom, and a place for personal healing and perspective. Honestly, Kelly, despite your H's emotional stuttering or clogging phase, I hear a lot of strength and vision and solid judgment in where you are. I hope you see that, too. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

FF and Blue thank you for your validation and support. Also thank you for your wisdom.

To answer some of your questions we are 7 months from D-Day 1 and only 10 days from D-Day 3 when OW called me and told me that he was still calling her and was asking if he could stop be to see her. I really think that the biggest problem I have is that how can he possibly say that he was trying to work on m while contacting her and asking if he could stop by???????????
He also says that the reason why he didn't leave me was because of our 3 boys ( I was 8 1/2 months pregnant when D-Day hit). He said that he didn't want them to grow up without a father. However I never asked him if he was so in love with her why didn't he leave me to be with her. I like that maybe some day I will ask that however I don't know if now is the time.

He said that the reason why it hurt him is because he is sad that he hurt me. I think that up until the OW popped his balloon he really didn't realize what he was doing or actually was in denial to be able to continue doing what he was doing. I do wonder if he is trying to shift roles and put himself in the victim role. I am a rather weak person as far as trying to not hurt people with my words and did wonder if H was using that to stop that line of questioning. I have a lot of deep rooted issues stemming from being abandoned by my mother at 6 months and by my father at 12 years so I am very afraid to lose my H who I love very much even though I sometimes wonder how and why I still do. But I am getting off the main topic here so again thank you for sharing and reminding me that I am not at fault for his feeling bad.

Kelly

Kelly,

I had forgotten that about the whole phone exchange with OW. Thanks for the reminder.

From my reading here and in books, I would say that your H is just not up to the task yet of facing the tremendous amount of damage his choices have caused. His saying he didn't want to break up his family seems like another way of saying he wanted the reality and the fantasy. He didn't want to give up either one for the other. He also didn't, or perhaps still doesn't, want to look like the bad guy. His words say that he has a tremendous amount of work to do to discover how he could give himself permission to cheat.

You have obviously done a lot of your own work that you know you have fear of abandonment, and that is why you don't always stand up for yourself. I understand. While I wasn't physically abandoned, like other BS here, I was affected greatly by my mother's verbal and emotional abuse (she was a fearsome alcoholic) and by my father's turning a blind eye to her behavior (he was the son of a verbally, emotionally and physically abusive alcoholic father). I think when we fear rejection, we will tolerate a great deal more abuse than those who have a healthy sense of boundaries and refuse to let others cross their boundaries without some sort of negative effect.

What is so difficult for us to come to grips with and grow resolve about is understanding that our parents' bad choices and behaviors were NOT our fault. Yes, we were tremendously hurt by them, but we did NOT cause those behaviors. We did NOT deserve to be abandoned in any way by our parents. We deserved their love, and while they may have loved us in their own way, clearly they were VERY troubled people who needed help but weren't getting it.

It is our job to learn to love ourselves, understand that our parents may have loved us, but had a sh*tty way of showing that love, set appropriate boundaries in place, respect others and expect that they will respect us too or face the consequences of not respecting us. These are difficult concepts for us to accept and implement, but when we do, we feel stronger and happier because we are no longer swallowing our needs and denying our right to be treated lovingly and respectfully.

Take care of yourself. I believe that one day your H will wake up and be shocked at how close he came to destroying his world.

Empowering fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

edited to correct grammar error

So sorry that you are feeling sad and I totally understand your fears of abandonment. So many people here have talked about that - I sometimes wonder if that is a characteristic of those of us who have decided to stay and work on our marriages. But that's another post.

The question that always reverberates for me is "how could you?" Sometimes, I asked the question with compassion and tried to understand the reasons and issues from childhood that allowed him to give himself permission to jeopardize his M and family. Other times, I asked it with venom and hatred - "how could you be such a cruel b-stard?"

I have learned that the first way led to productive and healing conversations while the second way always ended up with H shutting down.

D Day for us was nearly 2 years ago and I am amazed that we have made remarkable progress towards a better and healthier M. (Long story short - H had several A's over a 7 year period during which time he was actively alcoholic - sober since D Day +1 week)In the early days, I was so filled with rage and pain that I thought of him as a sexual predator, a monster that deserved to be punished for the rest of his life. With the help of my IC, I learned that I couldn't treat him that way and hope to have healthy M. I needed to learn how to ask the questions and discuss what happened to him and to us in a way that was respectful - nearly impossible when I had little respect left for him but essential because he had even less for himself.

I failed many times and let the bitterness out. But, when I managed to control myself and show some love, I got more answers, more discussion and ultimately, more progress. Still angers me that I had to show control when he was the one who lost it but it all comes down to deciding what I want and figuring out the best way to get it.

It sounds to me Kelly as though you (like me, and for very similar reasons) are not usually heard expressing your feelings. And it does NOT sound to me as though you were unpleasant or unreasonable. You made a simple statement about the way you were feeling. And you are entitled to do that. Sadly the steps between being very polite about how we feel, keeping our feelings to ourselves altogether, and concluding that it's safer not to acknowledge our feelings even to ourselves, are very small steps. Don't shut yourself down or cut yourself out of the right to communicate.

Your partner will be used to the way you usually react and will be alert to any changes (especially now..) and so may well hear you being more emphatic than usual. He may not react well BUT if you are being polite and factual about how you feel (ie not shouting, namecalling, and not being so emotional about the way you say things that this alone might give him a fright) you are entitled to say how you feel, and you should. I think it's good for our psyche to hear ourselves expressing ourselves..!

Also, be aware that there is a huge difference between your partner saying he feels bad simply because he DOES feel bad, and saying he feels bad because he knows this will shut you up. Only you know which is which, but be aware, he has probably learnt pre-A how to stop you saying things he does not like.

You are entitled to your feelings, and you are entitled to describe them. What your partner does then is up to him.

Hang in there..

C

I needed to hear that I can tell him how I feel in a non-attacking way. And that he doesn't have to like it. I don't like what he has done to me and our relationship and he didn't really care while he was continuing contact.

I have been writing a lot some poems some very direct letters to him with no sugar coating (with no intentions of showing these to him) and one of the poems I wrote had a line in it about how hurt I was that he was only thinking of his feelings and how hurt he was when he continued to contact ow and to lie and decieve me. I have found that pouring my emotions out with a pen make me feel so much better and after I can usually talk to him calmly since I have already vent my anger.

Oh the pain that we all have experienced. I hurt so deeply that I feel like my chest is caving in and that soon all of my ribs are going to break and I feel like I have the weight of the world on my shoulders that is what my pain feels like.

I have been encouraging my H to tell me his pain and I told him that I want him to also tell me if it has to do with the OW because I feel like he needs to be able to express his feelings to be able to heal. So he has and it hurts but I am glad that he trusts me enough to share even though I get the feeling that he is only sharing some of the feelings with me. He wrote me a note a few days after D-Day3 where he was thanking me for a lot of things one of which was for listening to him when what he said hurt. Yesterday before he left for work I reminded him of that and said that I had listened and had not shut down and gotten mad when what he said hurt and that he needed to be able to do that for me and that I know that he had done that a lot and I thanked him for the times where he had listened to me even though it hurt him to hear what I said.

I feel afraid of telling him how I feel now. I feel guilty for expressing my feelings to him and I am mad that I feel guilt. It is a valid question that some day I will need to have answered (how he can say that he was working on our marriage while contacting her and telling her that he loved her and asking to stop by to see her). AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
The screaming that I hear in my head drives me crazy. The unrelentless questions that are bouncing around in my head. I want to ask him to sit down with me to go over some of these questions so that I can stop obsessing but now I am afraid of his reactions. How do I work up the courage to talk to him after being shut out?

Hey Kelly,

Boy have I learned alot in the past week, so when I say this know that Ive been through alot in the past several days.

BE TRUE TO YOURSELF!!!! In the end thats who you have to face in the mirror everyday and the time may come that knowing that and being satisfied with yourself just might be all you have.

In the meantime prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Any question or feelings you have ARE NOT WRONG!! DO NOT SECOND GUESS YOURSELF...you will regret that.

Take time to thoroughly think through everything you want to know and want to say to him. Writing is a wonderful help and I think you are very wise in using that tool for therapy and the opportunity to get your thoughts together.

In everything, be respectful pick your words carefully but dont play games and dont allow yourself to be played.

You need to know what you need to know ..period. You also need to make your thoughts and feelings clear to him...for him and for you. Be true to yourself, do it right with no regrets and you will respect yourself and he will respect you for it.

Hugs to you .. good luck.

You NEED to be able to tell him, and he NEEDS to learn to listen to you. This is called communication in case he doesn't know what this is! If he expects you to swallow the poison you have in you, then my guess is that your marriage will have no hope of surviving. Why do HIS feelings count more than yours? Why are you afraid of sharing your hurt with him? So he doesn't like what you have to say. Big f'ing deal because his actions are what prompted your feelings and subsequent expression of those feelings.

I am not advocating that you call him names--that is disrespectful--but I do believe he needs to respect you enough to listen to your pain. If he doesn't want to hear how much you are hurting, then why make a mockery of your feelings by saying he wants to stay married to you? Why not just end the farce and leave you?

He needs to GROW up! But I guess you know that already. And as I wrote in another thread, you have to gain strength from the fact that you are NOT guilty here, HE is. You have a right to expect fair, respectful treatment from him. How can you have a true partnership if you are not equal partners?

Just my fairy cents' worth and sorry you are hurting,

fairyfriend

Fairy

Have I mentioned I just love you?

Your great!

O

Thanks Osfan.

You can't see me blushing behind my wings.

Everyone needs a fairy friend!

Loads of fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

I think that I just realized the reason why I am afraid is that every time I expressed my pain prior to D-Day 3 my H response was the same to withdraw and act like he was pissed at me. Now I am afraid that he might be contacting the OW again. She said that she would call me if he contacted her again but I often wondered if it was just a ploy to get me off their trail. I am sitting hear trying to type this while my hands are shaking and I think that I am being stupid but every other time I have had a gut feeling it was true and now I am scared s***less that it is true again because this will be the end.

Kelly,

I am sorry you are scared and hurting--of course you are! Does your H know what your boundaries are? Does he know that if he stays in contact with OW then you WILL end the marriage? If he crosses your boundary, are you prepared to follow through with whatever you tell him? He needs to know that you are strong and that you will no longer tolerate his immature, smoke blowing, insulting behavior.

Just my fairy cents' worth and a bazillion fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

Yes I do believe that he knows what my boundries are on D-Day 3 he called me and told me he was going to drive to her house and put her necklace on her car and I told him don't you dare if you go anywhere near her house I am done. He respected that and turned around and went back to work. When we talked that night I again told him that I was not making any decisions at that time his honesty and NC would help me make my decision.
The more I think about it I do think that the OW was serious about not wanting my H to call her anymore. She told me a lot of things that I told my h that hurt him. The big one was that she didn't really think that my H was in love with her but with the image of what she represented and that she thought that his A was done out of Revenge. I just think that his reaction to my pain and the question triggered memories of how he responded to my pain while he was maintaining contact with OW.

Oh Kelly,I am so sorry that you are in such pain. I totally remember those feelings of falling apart, feeling that there was no solid ground, feelings of pain/rage/helplessness/fear all mixed up. Sometimes, 2 years later, I still feel a version of those emotions.

You are entitled to all of those feelings and entitled to express them. In our case, we really needed the padded room of a MC to have a discussion that did not dissolve into accusations and bitterness.

Eventually, we were able to talk to eachother constructively without a referee. Sometimes, we wrote questions down and then shared them a couple at a time. Other times, we used e-mail, which somehow allowed both of us to express ourselves better. And still, the feelings would sometimes overcome us.

I can't tell you what will be the best course in your case because each of our H are different as are our marital dynamics and the circumstances surrounding the A. But, regardless of the differences, I do think we all need to express our feelings and communicate, as FF said.

I so hope you are able to find peace and that your H comes to his senses.