How do you know that they aren't still lying?

How do you ever learn to trust them again?

How can you look at them with out thinking of the pain that they caused you?

How can you look at them with out picturing them with someone else?

How can I ever feel like he loves me in the same way that he did her?

How can I stop this never ending list of questions bouncing around my head?

HOW? HOW? HOW?

And I'm sure we've all asked them at some point or other.

Sorry you are clearly hurting so much, but I think the last question on your list is the most important. You need to stop looking for answers the questions. These are like Zen questions - there aren't any real answers, and having an answer wouldn't help you any way.

I think that the answers are not actually important. The questions are the imporant parts. Sounds stupid, but there is no simple path for trusting someone, otherwise the untrustworthy could walk it.

All of these questions are tied together by being questions of sincerity, particularly of your own feelings. If you allow yourself to answer these questions then that opens them up for abuse by faking sincerity.

The excection is the last question. There you can try do something, but I don't know what - IC might help? Keeping busy?

I hope you manage to find some peace from these questions.

Good luck (((hugs)))

Edited for typos

Adam and Ami

Thank you both for your responses. Yesterday was a very down day and all the How's? took over.

You both hit upon things that I needed to hear to get back on track.

Right now I have to keep reminding myself that for me it has been 8 months of R but for him it has only been 1 since NC and he is still very much in the fog.

Kelly, I am very glad you posted this post and asked these questions because I sometimes wonder the same things. Your post gave Ami the chance to respond and thank you Ami, your response was very helpful to me!!!

<<How do you know that they aren't still lying?>>

Well, ya dont unfortunately. But dont be afraid to ask him questions. If something doesnt sound right check it out. Like look at phone records, check his email...anything that helps prove that what he is telling you is the truth. If he is remorseful and truthful he will willing allow you to check out whatever you need to at your request.

<<How do you ever learn to trust them again?>>

It doesnt ahppen over night. It takes a long time to rebuild the trust. He will have to be consistant for a long time and be accountable for his whereabouts. And he must be transparent, remorseful and willing to answer your questions about the A and not blame you for it. And remember his actions, not just his words, will help to rebuild the trust since actions speak louder than words. What he does will match what he says.

<<How can you look at them with out thinking of the pain that they caused you?>>

Again, this takes time. If he is remorseful and is doing everything possible to help you heal, the pain will lessen in time. I dont think it ever completely goes away (and it shouldnt IMO).

<<How can you look at them with out picturing them with someone else?>>

Sometimes our imagination is worse than what actually took place. If he is honest, this may put many of your fears to rest and the image may change or fade in time. But what I usually do when this starts to happen is think of something else instead of dwelling on them. It gets easier to do this the more you do it. Right now it is fresh and raw for you and that is normal.

<<How can I ever feel like he loves me in the same way that he did her?>>

Well, if he really loved her he would be with her and not you. And I agree with Ami, why would you want him to love you in that way? It is cheap and degrading. You deserve better than that...you deserve real and true love.

<<How can I stop this never ending list of questions bouncing around my head?>>

Ask him the questions...get them out. You needs answers. And when you get the answers to those questions you will have more questions. Again, get the answers YOU need. Ask only what you can handle for now. One day I have 20 questions, another day I may have none. That is all part of the rollercoaster. And you will have many ups and downs. This is normal and it does get better in time. You will hear that a lot...that it all takes time, sorry to say.

((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))


~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

(((Kelly)))
Even after 8 months, I still ask this same question...I am finding this thread you started, a very relevant one to my situation, and the responses sooo helpful....You are a unique person, who deserves H to love you genuinely and forever. Don't wish for your H to love you "like he loved her" . The excitement of the the affair, and the qualities of the people involved, are usually based on the sh**t and lies they tell each other
Lisa

Thank you all for answering to the best of your capabilities my Q's. It is good to know that these Q's are normal and not my minds way of telling me it is time to move on.

When I said that I wanted to be loved in the same way that he loved her it was more the compassion that he had for her that I want. I want all of the things that I asked for from him for years and he never gave me but that he gave to her. The verbal affection, the compliments, and the fact that he would talk to her without turning the TV on will she was in mid sentance.

I have told him a few times in the last few weeks that I need this from him and he is struggling to be able to do it for me. However yesterday I did get a note from him saying many wonderful things that really boosted my moral.

But you are all right I don't want to be loved in the same way that he loved her and thank you for pointing that out to me.

Kelly

Kelly,

I understand what you meant about wanting to be loved the same way and also what the others wrote.

I can tell you that I believe when your H finally, really gets it 100%, he will want nothing more than to cherish you and your children, to guard you from hurt, to want to shield you with a bubble of love because nothing will be more important to him than you and your children.

But it takes time and a lot of effort by the WS to get to that point of complete understanding and remorse. Be strong, Kelly. Help him get to the path of enlightenment that you so wish him to walk.

Time is our great ally.

Encouraging fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

<<How can you look at them with out picturing them with someone else?>>

This is one of the most difficult issues for me, and it's been many years past D Day. I saw her prancing around town with several of her studs when she temporarily moved out, and she even brought one or more of them over to my home for a "meet and greet" session! How I didn't completely lose my freakin' mind at the time, I'll never know. And what actually happened in bed was FAR WORSE than my imagination, between what I read in her diary & what she told me herself....The only thing missing were gerbils....

One of the "mind tricks" I play on myself to help banish the sickening feeling I still start to get in my stomach is thus:

For many BS's, it is their second marriage (this happens to be my first one, though, and I was her first sex partner), and/or our spouses had other sexual relationships before they met us. We all can pretty much accept those parameters. So I try to "pretend" that the only difference is the timing. They had been intimate with other partners before they met us, so in a way it's no different. Of course, that's not 'zackly true, but it beats drinking or shooting morphine....

This may sound stupid to some of you, but it's the only thing I've found so far that helps me.
BB

BB,

It doesn't sound stupid at all to me. You have found your coping mechanism and are using it. Smart man.

ff

Actually this was a hugely helpful piece of advice. I think you had mentioned it in an earlier thread. Since I was only 6 months into marriage (3 yrs relationship) I think I'm early enough that I can think of this exactly that way. It has brought me a huge sense of relief to frame it up that way. Even though it involves a little pretending, I think it'll work. Thanks!

that is a helpful bit of advice. I think it will actually work.

I got a lot of the earlier answers, as well.

Thanks.

I too wanted to be "loved" the way WH loved the OW. But then I realized it wasnt love at all that I was envious of because he obviously didnt love her if he was keeping her a secret..."love" is celebrated not hidden. She was just something he used (like his pot) to make himself feel better. That is not real love at all! Then I figured out it was what HE gave her that he wouldnt give me that I was really envious of. Like time. He never had time for me and the kids but he found time for HER. Everything I begged him to do for me he was doing for her and that is what hurts. Now he is doing many of the things I have asked and it has brought us closer together and now I dont feel she was somehoe more loved or desired than me or that he loved her at all. This took a lot of time for me to see and even more time to feel...but I finally get it. And I dont want to be "loved" like that EVER, if love is what you even want to call it...cause in my book that aint love!

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha
EDITED TO ADD: Thanks BB...I have used that "mind trick" from time to time as well. Tahnks for the reminder

Cal
Yes that is exactly how I feel. I was home depressed, suspecting something going on, pregnant, and dealing with our other 2 children on my own while he was out spending time with her and giving her the big thing that I had asked for so many times in our marriage (being verbally affectionate).

And it is not that she was some bubbly happy woman, she had just left an abusive H who still hit her when she would drop the kids off to him (or so she told my H). So my H said that sometimes they would be hanging out and she would be crying about how awful her life was. She was suicidal and depressed and needy and found my H. So if he wanted to be with a depressed woman why not be at home with me who was only depressed because I was having a tough pregnancy and was very hormonal.

That is what I wanted, not the love that he felt for her, but the time, the attention, the affection, the desire, the compassion. Those are the things that I am jealous that he gave to her and not to me and have not had for most of our marriage.

Kelly

BayouBlues, going back to your advice about the bad thoughts and images. I too struggle with this, very much!! Its funny you said this because I have done exactly the same thing. The funny thing is sometimes its helps, sometimes I am able to "fool" myself and the pain lessens a little but other times my mind screams "you know it's not the same!!" It's almost like these times the betrayal part of the A comes to light and hurts as appose to the physical acts. It seems that the hurt is sometimes so strong that no matter how I try and fight it it will still find a away to hurt, even if my mind shifts the focus to something else besides the original thought that bothered me, since there are so many aspects of the A that is painful. Not sure if this makes sense, but hopefully you know what I mean. May these horrible images fade for us all!!!

Hartbroken, yes, I know exactly what you mean. That 'lil mind trick doesn't TOUCH the betrayal aspect of the cheating at all, nor the other 10 million negative aspects that our partner's unfaithfulness has brought into our lives. But it's OK to find coping where you can, I guess.
BB

I have tried that thought process a few times, with occaisional limitted success. It was actually suggested to me to my WS.

My problem though is that one of the OM is an ex of hers, and that I had an issue about her promiscuous past when we first dated. I got over it off course, but with one of them resurfacing like that its pretty tricky...

You know it is a scary thing but it is possible that our WSs are getting something from the OP that they actually need at home and the BS also needs what WS are giving OP.  In other words the betrayal is giving the thing that is missing in the marriage.  I don't want to push this line of thought but it may also be comforting to know there is a match with BS missing the very thing WS is giving OP and WS is getting the very thing BS wants to give.  Also, I have a feeling that where relationships heal it is partly because both sides realise this fact and can see how to meet the missing bits with each other.  May be this makes sense?

may you all be safe and well, contented and happy

My WS was sick and didn't have energy and couldn't be around bright lights and lots of noise. He was uncomfortable driving at night and needed lots of sleep.

He found the energy to stay up all night, drive at night, and manage two relationships although I have to say he had very little to nothing invested in ours. He gave her everything he asked me not to bug him for, and I respectfully obliged - and then got cheated on in return.

He probably also had to work to impress her. And, now I just wrote that he was being the perfect husband in another thread. And, your post just made me think he probably just decided to do for me what he realized he had to do for her. I kind of makes me a little sick.

Oh well, at least he's pointing his attentions in the right direction. So sad it took an A to remind him about all the little easy things to do that don't take a whole lot of energy.

I think you may be on to something, Jerry, in your definition that betrayal. My H and I have had several conversations that support that idea. In our case H gave OW all of the attention, comfort, communication, moral support that I wanted in our relationship. No wonder she thought he was wonderful! He viewed me as a strong, independent person, thus not needing the very things he provided her with. While I may be a strong, independent person now.....I think HE made me be that....I couldn't count on him to provide me with anything...so I just handled things without him. It is strange that the WS can identify the needs of the OP...but cannot identify those same needs of the BS.

Yes.  What I thought I should also have said is that the "illness" that leads to an A is not being able to recognise that you can find what you need with your spouse.  It is almost as if something in WS gives them a blind spot to their own existing spouse.  How this happens can be because of all sorts of history I suppose.  The solution is the opening of the eyes and realising that BS can be the one after all.  BS then has the problem of accepting that the realisation is genuine and not allowing the A to close them down to that.  Is this right do you think?

may you be safe and well

And ForgAndForg;

"[S]He gave h[im] everything [s]he asked me not to bug h[er] for"

Sounds hauntingly familiar, including saying she had no libido, and she just wasn't "ready for that" after DD1.

She definately was giving this guy the comfort, support and affection that I desperately wanted, and in return he was giveng her?? Not quite got there in working out exactly what it was, but making her feel attractive, giving her independance and excitement, something like that probably.

Yes Adam - that is more or less what my wife said she was getting from him.  But in her case the barrier to seeing she could have that from me was that she was suffering from severe personal lack of self esteem due to the way her father had and was treating her (Her father was dishing out what I would call emotional abuse to her).  To achieve her release she had to jump off into this little affair "bubble".  It felt real to her in that bubble (was real in that sense).  I could not get to her then because of her separation from me in that space.  The habit then hardened over time and she ended up living two separate lives... ie very messed up in the end.  I, meanwhile, was finding ways to make it all work despite the evident problems in our marriage (my determination that everything would be fine!).  Piecing this all back together and finding a new openness in which we can both be vulnerable to each other again is very difficult and requires, what feels like to me, and act of great courage.  Being courageous in such circumstances is difficult from wounded people and yet I am not sure there is any choice.

may you be safe and well, contented and happy 

<<You know it is a scary thing but it is possible that our WSs are getting something from the OP that they actually need at home and the BS also needs what WS are giving OP. In other words the betrayal is giving the thing that is missing in the marriage.>>

I agree with Jerry to a point. BUT if the WS had opened up to the BS and said "hey, I need this...this is missing in our marriage" chances are the A would have never happened and the BS would have complied! We cannot meets someone's needs if they dont tell us what they are can we? So that doesnt fly with me. It is just an excuse used to justify an A (usually by the WS and OP), and I am sorry but NOTHING justifies having an A Jerry. And this is the type of thinking that puts "blame" on the BS. The BS is not to blame for the choices the WS makes. Sure, the WS and the BS are both equally to blame for problems in the marriage, but we solve problems by talking and working things out, not by cheating. That choice is solely the responsibility of the WS.

And what if the WS's needs are unrealistic? Like in my case, WH wanted someone he could go off and party with...someone who would condone his pot addiction and would partake and not make him feel bad about it. Well, that was an unrealistic need in my view. We have children and someone needed to be sober and be there for them. Substance addictions are not healthy for anyone! The OW shared my WH's addiction and encouraged it. That is what OW gave my WS that I couldnt. But WH's addiction is his issue to work on and I have no control over it. So am I to blame because I dont share his pot addiction? If you go by that thinking that the BS is not meeting the WS's needs, then indeed I am!

And believe it or not, affairs happen in happy marriages as well. Most of the books will tell you that. Some WS's are just players! And on top of that there are many different types of affairs. Just because your WS has an A doesnt necessarily mean anything was even missing in the marriage....but it does mean something was missing in the WS...and that definately needs to be examined. Are they missing boundaries? Are they lacking in character or morals? Do they have an addiction? Or low self-esteem? Do they think A's are ok? And so on.....but to "blame" the BS is unacceptable.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

Dear Cal, what you say is something I have read before many times here but, did you read my last two postings in this thread?  I am sorry if I am upsetting you.  I did not intend to do this and my last two postings were written just describing my own experience and understanding.  I am not saying that the way I have see it is the right way at all.  I guess I see only some common ground at the base of all this that WSs and BSs can share:  Once we strip away our defences and simply feel the base of our pain it feels to me more like loving understanding and my feeling right now is that it is the very injuries that break open to love.  Just as I don't blame WSs I also look to see it could even be quite possible in the right circumstances for myself to behave just like them.  I am now close to holding no judgement against WSs and just acknowleding that this is just how things turn out sometimes.  And when I say this I am not saying betrayal is a good thing.. Please note this.  I am just not blaming people for bad, unwise actions and that is all.

may you be safe and well, contented and happy

Jerry,

I am not upset at all with you. I always love what you write. You are a very wise and forgiving man. I just didnt want any of the newcomers to feel like they are somehow at fault for the A for not meeting the needs of their WS. I know when I first found out about my WH's A, all I did was blame myself. I examined everything I ever did in the marriage. It was so hard for me to see that it wasnt me and that there was nothing I could have done to prevent it....that the A is about the WS and their choices.

I know you dont like to put the blame on anyone but blame is used to place responsibility and accountability for faults on the blamed person. Shouldnt the WS acknowledge the damage they have done to the BS and the marriage and be accountable for their actions and choices? That is how I used the word blame.
I am not saying that I dont understand how an A could occur, but the fact is the BS did not cross that line and the WS willingly and knowing did without regard to the BS and the marriage, and was a purely selfish act on the part of the WS. I think you are puting yourself in your WS's position, and saying you see how she did what she did. To me, Jerry that is understanding. And yes, after careful examination and talking to my WS, I also have that understanding. But like I said HE made the choice to cross that line and cheat instead of talking to me and trying to work things out or going to counselling or an array of other options. The point is he clearly had other options...he chose to cheat.


<<What I thought I should also have said is that the "illness" that leads to an A is not being able to recognise that you can find what you need with your spouse. It is almost as if something in WS gives them a blind spot to their own existing spouse. How this happens can be because of all sorts of history I suppose. The solution is the opening of the eyes and realising that BS can be the one after all. BS then has the problem of accepting that the realisation is genuine and not allowing the A to close them down to that. Is this right do you think?>>

I think you are right. But what do we call this "illness"? I think it is selfishness and trying to boost ones ego. But the problem is the only adds to the illness and does not cure it as the WS hopes it will. And it unnecessarily causes pain to others in the process.




~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha