I know you are reeling from Sunday's discovery of new events. My heart breaks that you are going through this for a 4th time. It is beyond comprehension to me that spouses choose to do something so destructive to themselves, their marriage and their husband/wife. What is wrong with the world? What surreality has brought us to this place?
You didn't mention your thoughts that led you to post "What You Are". My interpretation of it was that these are words we all as victims of betrayal can drink in, and hopefully, believe in and trust. That in turn will hopefully lead to our healing...or minimally, our survival.
Ironically, when I read this over and over again, the person I really start thinking about is my H. Despite all the betrayal and pain, I want him to know this and feel this, too.
In the end, I think my H has lived his life believing nothing on this list. I think he sought out an A to hear from somebody else that he was treasured and beautiful and valued and worthy. But A's are about lies and fantasy, and H couldn't find self-truth or value in something so bereft of value itself like an A.
In the meantime, H's ability to have an A, stripped my ability to feel these things about myself.
I suppose to heal and to be whole, one needs to be able to feel all these things - treasured, beautiful, valuable, worthy, loved - irregardless of others and how we are treated by them. That's a tough assignment when the relationships we're involved in are giving us other messages. But I know for me, I have not over the years tended my own relationship with myself. I have done the same thing my H did by looking to see those values through another's eyes (his) and another's actions (his) towards me. That was wrong. I am a treasure and beautiful and valued and worthy and loveable simply because I am alive. I need to see it and know it and live it from the inside out, instead of trying to find my place and my value from the outside and sucking it in.
And I do still want H to find those things for himself, too. For this M to heal, that's probably the full circle that needs to happen.
You gave me a lot to think about. Thank you. I wish there was something I could give back to ease the intense pain you're feeling, and can only come back to your own message: "You are a treasure...You are a beautiful person....You are...."
(((hugs))) BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
Everything you said about finding worth in yourself without being validated by someone else is the central issue in my life and in my therapy.
My inability to believe this is partly why I married a man who I knew to be selfish and disrespectful. But he was also handsome,brilliant,successful, charming, funny and very romantic. I saw him as the prize that everyone wanted and that I "won" - that made me feel special and worthy. I was willing to accept all kinds of crazy, cruel behavior because I had made a deal with the devil - I get to show the world that I am a "winner" and in return,H can treat me badly. And, in fact, it worked - people saw us as the golden couple, making me believe I had made a great deal. But, deal was only valid if H loved me and only me. The A's made a mockery of me and the ridiculous arrangement I was willing to live with. (I do not believe that I am responsible for the As - but I am responsible for allowing him to treat me so badly before and during them.)
Slowly but surely, I am learning that my feelings of value and loveability must come from me and no one else. I now want this man to share my life but he can no longer BE my life. And, I must only accept behavior from myself and from him that are consistent with the ideas of love, caring and honesty. And my H is no prize - he is just a man with huge issues that he is working on. I cannot derive my self worth from him or anybody else. There is a big hole in me and the only one that can fill it is myself.
As we all know, it is very hard to change ways of thinking that have been burned into our brains over years and years. But, for me, those ways of thinking were taught to me by very sick people with huge problems (controlling father with absolutely no idea what love is, weak mother who sweeps everything under the rug and alcoholic, cheating H - the tri-umverate of pain). Only an idiot learns from sick, crazy people- and I am no longer that idiot.
I can tell you that you are so right in your feeling...we bought into the all the stuff our parents did.. Right now You have to really believe in yourself ...sounds as if you are there...just keep telling your self...intellectually we can say it but that little voice sometimes doubts it because it is so ingrained, print out this poem and read it every day...
(((((hugs)))))
Pat
"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."
Susan- That pretty much sums it up. I no longer want to be an idiot either. I am still stuggling with not making my H the center of my life. It is all too easy to fall back into old patterns. Why is it so difficult to prioritize myself and take care of me. I have to confess, I don't like it when I have to look at the changes I need to make in myself. He had the A shouldn't have have to put in as much or more effort then me. He's the one that needs changing. I know that is not 100% correct, but as I said, I was confessing. I know that the person I am hurting the most by not taking full responsibility for myself is me. It's just so scarry to pick myself up, move forward and take care of me. What if things don't turn out how I hope them to? It is so difficult to turn this over to God. I want the control even though it is destroying me. It's a constant battle. That is why I posted this topic to begin with. I thought if I was feeling this way surely other people were too. I am valuable and should take care of me. How can I take care of my beautiful family if I don't. I figure if I say this enough, someday I will really start to believe it in my heart. Then maybe it won't be such a challenege to love me.
It is comforting to know that so many of us feel the same way. Sometimes I wonder if there is a correlation between BS who are willing to work on M and low self esteem. Sometimes I think that staying with this man who did such despicable things comes at the expense of my self respect though I feel that way less and less as our M becomes stronger and my H becomes a better man. Who knows but I am strangely glad that this trauma has forced me to look at myself and make changes.
Brooke, I ask my IC many of the same questions you are raising - what do I have to do to feel better about myself -give me the guidebook and I will follow every suggestion. As you already know, it is not that easy. She tells me that it takes lots and lots of time to make those kinds of changes in your thinking. You have to re-program your brain by just telling yourself over and over that you are worthy and the people that make you feel otherwise are wrong and have issues of their own. She repeats the same thoughts over and over and eventually I guess it will get through - the only one who can fill the void in myself is me. (Freud's theory is that repetition is the foundation of psychotherapy.)
Also, do things for yourself that make you feel good. IC has suggested that I pursue an interest of my own but I haven't really found the time to do that and am not really sure what that would be since my primary interests have been my H, family and work for so long. She also urges me to go out alone with my friends though I have been afraid to leave my H, the sexual predator, to his own devices. Those feelings about him are gradually diminishing and I now will start socializing with my women friends on my own. In the early days, I did treat myself to massages and I have been taking yoga classes. With 5 kids, I am sure that is hard for you but maybe you could do some kind of club with other mothers - a book club, exercise club or get yoga tapes to do at home (I did that for a while but lacked the discipline to do it on my own, I must confess.)
I am not at the point where I truly deep down believe that I am loveable and wonderful but I know the right way to think and am even able to think that way on and off. I do know that I will never allow H to treat me the way he did and that is huge progress. I have learned the consequences of selling your soul to the devil and my soul is no longer for sale.
Brooke - Thank you for "bumping" this thread up. You were right; it was a good time to be reminded of who we are. There never is a wrong time to hear this, but isn't it amazing how often we forget it because it isn't a natural part of our inner dialogue with ourselves?
Susan - My dear, Susan. Oh, you make me smile, if just for the connection I feel with you. Like you, I know the right ways I'm SUPPOSED to feel, the right words I should be saying to myself and the way to look at myself in the world. And there are even clearer days when I begin to live that way. But there are so many, many days when that is mired in all the garbage from the past. Your family life sounds very much like my own - - extremely domineering, rageful father. Quiet mom, "be a good girl and he won't have anything to be mad about - it'll blow over soon - don't rock the boat - he can't help it". Mom was trying to survive herself, so I can find a place of forgiveness for her, though my therapist sees my mom as my first betrayer, because she should have protected me instead of teaching me how to live with hurtful men.
But its tough to erase the tapes from those years. They play over and over again in my head - this unending loop. I call them "The Stupid Tapes". That was the adjective I heard used to describe my mom, my sister, myself for most of my life. And I heard my Dad's voice loud and clear in my head after DDay. "Stupid girl. You should have seen this coming. You should have figured it out sooner. You should have been a better wife. You should have...you should have...you should have."
I know H's A is NOT the result of any shortcoming on my part. It is not the result of anything I did or did not do. H came to our marriage with his own "Stupid Tapes" playing in his head that eventually drowned out reason and rationale.
You said:
"Slowly but surely, I am learning that my feelings of value and loveability must come from me and no one else. I now want this man to share my life but he can no longer BE my life. And, I must only accept behavior from myself and from him that are consistent with the ideas of love, caring and honesty. And my H is no prize - he is just a man with huge issues that he is working on. I cannot derive my self worth from him or anybody else. There is a big hole in me and the only one that can fill it is myself."
So true!!!! To be honest, I miss the fairytale, the being rescued and protected, the happy ending. But there is at least clarity in knowing that the white knight doesn't exist. Just a guy, fighting his own demons, and trying his best. And my happy ending has everything to do with what I do to define what that is, protect it and see it through.
You also said:
"As we all know, it is very hard to change ways of thinking that have been burned into our brains over years and years. But, for me, those ways of thinking were taught to me by very sick people with huge problems (controlling father with absolutely no idea what love is, weak mother who sweeps everything under the rug and alcoholic, cheating H - the tri-umverate of pain). Only an idiot learns from sick, crazy people- and I am no longer that idiot. "
And this is the only place I disagree with you, my friend. You and I may be many things. But we are not idiots for having learned so much from sick, crazy people. Its unfortunate that our "teachers" couldn't provide us with better lessons. But we could only trust them as one trusts any teacher, or "professional". That doesn't make us stupid. However, and this is the important, though difficult part, we'd be "rowing with one oar" if we kept listening to their horrible lessons now that we see them for who they are and what they were ascribing.
I'm still working daily on how to erase the old tapes and dub them over with good messages like Brooke has given us (and infuse them with a little James Taylor for good measure).
(((hugs))) BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
But what do you do when life seems to reinfoce those tapes in your head? after all, if my priest kicks me out of the choir, my WS has found someone who make shim happy depsite me being perfect, my inability to workin my career becaue the palce where I live values my credentials from other provinces as highly as if they were from a foreign country, the medical system doesn't believe being on meds is a good enough reason for treatment, my IC stands me up for our appointment and I can't seem to meet any friends despite being a member of choirs, sports groups and a social club? After all, there are people out there who are obviously clueless about themselves (i.e. dress as if they are 5 sizes smaller or think everyone loves them when they are truly despised because of their bossiness). How do I know I am not one of those people? How do I know I have any value when the whole world seems to want to prove otherwise?
That's a toughie, Chinook. The tapes are hard enough to turn off when they're just playing in one's head. When everything around us echoes the same message, it definitely contributes to the original brainwashing and drags us further down. It becomes a big black spiral of life negatively contributing to what I'm already negatively contributing to myself.
I know some schools of thought say that when we have a particular self-image (for me, "I am not enough" has sadly been the motto I've tried to rail against my entire life), we end up actually teaching that message to the people in our lives and carving out circumstances that substantiate that. So, I've been in multiple relationships where "I was not enough" despite having loved more, tried harder, and been a better person. But my inner tapes are (till recently) not something I've dealt with in a substantial way. The "Stupid Tapes" still play and "I am not enough" is the white noise that subliminally plays. It makes me second guess myself. When something doesn't work out, I'm just SURE its because of those failings. All my validation (or the bulk of it) has come from trying to see myself through other's eyes. If my actions and reactions have taught the people in my life my own inner messages, how can they see something else?
Perhaps it has to start with a more play-acting version of who we wish we were. Sort of like doing the 180 on ourselves. Slowly, by living it, feeling its empowerment, we become more comfortable with the new us.
You are in such a terrible, uncomfortable spot. And your H is in such a place of control...with two women who he currently really doesn't have to choose between.
Its so much easier said than done; I do NOT want to belittle how difficult your task would be. But Chinook, you need to find some control over Chinook's life. Not H's life. He's going to do whatever he's going to do. And your H needs to not control your life. Telling you to get out of the room because you'd be uncomfortable seeing his pictures of Europe (we know what that means) is actually him controlling you (by asking you to leave) and him getting to lessen (control) his own shame/guilt/conflict by not having to face whatever feelings you may have had were you to see the pictures. No wonder you got ticked off. He took your control. If he had asked you, are you comfortable with me doing this? That might have been somewhat (minimally) respectful. It would have been more respectful of him to not even to have shared those particular pictures with his friend. What is that about? Him bragging about the bonus piece of a$$ he gets?
More than just being married to your H, you are "married" to yourself. You deserve so much love, honor and respect. In the same way that you have given so much of yourself to your H, you need to give that much of yourself to yourself, and for yourself.
Please know I struggle with this constantly. I give way more of myself away than I keep of myself. I can talk the guru talk, but living it is hard. But I know I've had enough of not being enough and its cost me too many tears listening to others and myself say those words...especially since its not true.
Find you. Love you. Everything else will follow. (Chinook) BlueIris
"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."
