Well, the stuff hit the fan yesterday. WS confronted me when I came home about me contacting OW and asking her those questions and demanded a divorce. He was quite calm about it. Turns out that she forwarded my email to him and said not to confront me about it because I was just being vindictive and looking for a fight. This confused me as I just asked questions I needed to hear answers from her on.

WS had a very long and emotional talk. As I downloaded the paperwork (Quebec makes divorce just a form away), he kept saying I got what I wanted and he didn’t want to do this. How I had made him chose and now he did (note for others – never make WS make choice in middle of fog because you will lose. I should have kept my mouth shut). He also said he couldn’t believe how vindictive I had been and how I could ruin his life. He also agreed that he would have just let the months slip by without making a decision if I had let him and he had been dreading Feb. because he knew he would have to choose. So, I put him in a situation where he had to chose her. Why her? Because he had calmed her down by telling her he was going to have me sign the divorce papers today, and he couldn’t figure out what else to do. He had no choice.

He kept saying this was all his felt because he had lied. He admitted that, if he had told me a year ago that his eyes were starting to wander or in Jan. that he had picked her up at the airport, we could have done something to fix it. I agreed. He also admitted to one more lie he told me – the OW doesn’t know we are still together. He had told her that we had recently broke up. She knew he still got my mail and we shared the pets but believed that I was stilling living on my own. My jaw dropped and I told him that the only reason I contacted her is that I believed she knew and would be more than happy to rub my face in it. It as why what I did wasn’t vindictive (though I knew she would tell him and he would be angry. I just wanted answers). Turned out I blew his story out of the water.

He was honestly at a loss of what to do. He said that, that morning, he saw a woman and baby (so obviously in a long term R) who looked so happy and realized he could make me that happy. He wanted to believe that the new job, time off from work and away from the OW would fix things. After all, our R had improved big time before he left. He also can’t sleep when he is with her due to guilt (he told me this before) and thinks of me when he is away. He knows leaving me will be something he will regret for the rest of his life. But, the OW makes him happier than ever. He admits that they will eventually break up and he will be alone but he can’t bring himself to do it now. He says that he decided for himself that he wouldn’t fight for her if she found someone else. Essentially, he wants her to break up with him. He admits he doesn’t want to be the one to break up with either of us.

So, we were in a situation of my doing (which, with new info, I now deeply regret). If he had to choose, it was her and I am gone now. But, if given more time, it might be me (or not. I know that). So, he came up with a plan. He emailed her through my account (I agreed to this but wouldn’t do it myself) and rudely told her that she got her divorce. Then he emailed her again, as me, to say to give me back my pets (why? I have no idea. These are his lies and part of me hopes she dumps his butt). He then emailed her as himself and calm the waters. Now, if she has a brain, she won’t believe a word he says without proof. But, she is 22 and her family told WS that he is her first b/f, so she may be naively blind to this.

As for me, we agreed to give us until Nov. 15 to see if we can make it work with the understanding that a) I won’t contact her again b) he can’t kick me out before that date c) we give this an honest shot. He will still contact her, but, as he put it, what can you do via e-mail (I know, EA, but this is a strategic move on my part). Personally, I am preparing myself for being home permanently for Christmas, saving my money and protecting my heart (things he all knows). I have already lost my dignity when I begged him not to divorce me (it was ugly. We both made it through all ranges of emotions. He even cried. I even had a crazy moment).

I can’t deal with leaving him because he told me I deserve better because I am such a good person but that is obviously not enough for me to get the man I love. In his mind, it is okay for me to suffer for life for his short term happiness. He pointed out that he suffered for 2 years for my happiness. Funny, I thought we had good times. When he told me he wanted a divorce, I had never felt so lonely and unloved in my entire life. It told me right there that I am not worthy of love and happiness, regardless of how kind I act, how strong I am or how much love I have to give. None of it matters. I am unlovable.




Chinook

None of it matters. I am unlovable.

Well maybe by a man who has no clue how to love --

but in the big picture I think you know this is not the case.

However, for the life of me, I cannot imagine being in your shoes and not being just a bit more... hmmm vindictive.

-Susan

First and foremost...NONE of this is your doing! Repeat that over and over agin until you believe it. He lied to her and he lied to you and he is just angry and being manipulative because he just got caught, not only by you, but by OW. These are the consequences of HIS action...his cheating, not YOURS!!! That is the jist of it! In fact, like Susan said, given the circumstances I think I may be incline to be a little more vindictive myself, although I am normally not vengeful in the least bit. The OW deserves to know the truth ;O)
Although I normally do not think it a good idea to communicate with the OW at all.

~ CAL
"You, yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection" ~ Buddha

I'm sorry that you're hurting so much. I don't think what you're going through is easy, and I'm sure that you'll be grieving for this relationship. I don't want to say anything that would minimize those feelings.

However, you are much more lovable than this. You really can't "trust" the opinion of a man who isn't sure what he wants. Much of what he says has the purpose of rationalizing his irrational behavior. He'll say anything, do anything, argue anything needed to "feel right" about what he's doing.

Chinook... we've never met, but I can see that you're an intellegent person, a caring person, a person who affects people around them in positive ways. In my opinion you are a loving person and that makes you lovable. Don't sell yourself short just because you've been hurt so much.

TomJ

(((Chinook)))) I am so sorry to hear about this latest turn of events. I wish I could say it was a surprise, but your H has not really paved the road for hopeful expectation.

I was especially disturbed to see him "acting as you" (??!!)) by sending an angry-ish message to OW via your email address, and then turn around and playing peacemaker to her as himself. His behavior is to lie to everyone!...to you...to OW...and he certainly doesn't know what his own truth is if he can't even make a decision on his own.

This man is deeply troubled, Chinook. I know you love him deeply and have invested your time and love in him. But you deserve so, so very much more. You do! You ARE loveable! You ARE worthy! You are SPECIAL, IMPORTANT, A TREASURE, A GEM, SMART, TALENTED, CARING, LOVING, DEVOTED, TRUSTWORTHY. Until he gets his head together and is able to (a) see what he wants, and (b) be a man and see that decision through, you really need to be away from him.

That is very easy for me to say, thousands of miles away, and not part of your life. I do not mean to belittle how deeply you care and how difficult the rest of this year will be. It is hard to know how the rest of this story will play out. More than anything, I wish you the very best, because you deserve the very best. You should not have to be renting a room from your H. He should be welcoming you home each day with roses strewn in your pathway.

I'm so, so sorry to hear of your heartache. If circumstances permitted, I would whisk you away to somewhere safe, beautiful and comfortable. I will hold you in my thoughts. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Chinook,

I know you are hurting possibly more than you have ever hurt in your life. You fell in love with a man you believed you would happily spend the rest of your life with, and now you have seen your dreams crumble and fall in pieces around your feet.

Chinook, it is time for you to open your eyes and see the man your H has become. He is full of lies and delusions--and he has even admitted that fact to you. He is sitting on the fence and wants you to help him balance there.

Some questions for you to consider:

Short of holding a gun to another person's head, can anyone MAKE another person do anything?

Why is making OW happy more important to him than making YOU, HIS WIFE, happy?

Why is he afraid to tell the OW the truth about your living arrangements?

Why does he feel the need to blame you for his actions and choices?

Why are you giving him the power to determine whether or not you are lovable?

Just because he is in a delusional state, having an A, and blaming you for his faults, does that mean you are wrong or unlovable?

What is so important about February for him to make a decision?

Why does he get to choose what happens to your life? Why can't YOU choose?

Why doesn't OW deserve to know the truth about her OP? If he truly believes that he will end up with her, why not be honest with her?

Why does he believe that he is happier with her?

If he is, indeed, happier with her, why not divorce you and marry her? Wouldn't that be the more honest way of handling the situation instead of lying to you and OW?

What have you done that H believes you deserve such abominable treatment from him? (I'll answer this one for you: NOTHING!!! An A is his choice!) Does he even see that his treatment of you is abominable?

Were your questions truly vindictive, or is he just angry because he got caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar and he refuses to take responsibility for his own actions, preferring to spew ridiculous and hurtful lies at you to make you feel to blame instead?

What is in your psyche that makes you believe you have no right to stand up to him and tell him that he made this mess, and it is HIS friggin' responsibility to clean it up?

Why does he feel the need to be in the middle of a tired, pathetic soap opera?

Do you believe continuing to live with him under these circumstances will make you happier, or will it destroy any personal strength and self-esteem you have left?

Oh, Chinook, I am so sorry he has done this terrible thing to you. You do NOT deserve this. You don't. Please keep telling yourself this. Please look hard at him and see the lost man that he is. He is like a fish in a net, floundering, gasping for air, fighting to get back in the water. He has told himself so many lies that he can't tell anymore what is true and what is false. You CAN NOT force him to come out of the fog, but you can ask yourself what you need to do to keep from having the life sucked out of you, and then do it. The only person who will save you is yourself.

Do I believe that your H could come out of the fog? Yes, I do; however, right now I do not see any signs of that happening. Something will need to happen to jolt him out of the fog, or at least enough out of the fog to understand that he is in a fog.

I am sad for you, just as I am sad for everyone who must deal with the trauma of betrayal. Nothing in my life has ever hurt me more than my H's betrayal, not my mother's constant emotional and verbal abuse, not my youngest brother's suicide, not the loss of four members of my family in a span of 18 months. Nothing. So I know that you are hurting more than you have ever hurt before, but I also know that you CAN survive this, with or without your H to help.

We can help others to heal, but ultimately, we can only heal ourselves.

More encouraging and gentle fairy hugs than you can count,

fairyfriend

Thanks all for your input. Some of what you said I have considered already, so I will respond. First, an update:

I am currently living my life as if the divorce is a fait accompli. I am always angry and am trying hard to yell at my WS all the time. He has even noticed that I am being very quiet and constantly asks if I’m okay. I have had to give myself “time outs” in order not to blow up at him and have told him that I am working hard to “keep myself together.” I can think of nothing but what he has said to me, which means that, if he is trying to see if we can work things out, I am in no state to notice. Ironically, my actions will probably send him right back to the OW as who wants to spend time with someone so angry and morose? I can tell he is trying for us to be normal.

Last night he found his picture, our picture and the agenda he gave me from his trip on a high shelf. He asked me if I put it there when I was angry and, if I didn’t want it, can he take the pic of himself. I yelled at him that, since I took it from him so he wouldn’t throw it out, no he couldn’t give it to his friend like he did his dog tags (I was p.o. when he did this). I then told him I hid them so I wouldn’t destroy them in a fit of anger and they are not his to take away. The photo of the 2 of us is the only one taken in the last 2 years. The agenda, well, I had asked for wooden shoes for use at Christmas (long story), so of course an agenda in 3 languages I don’t speak with a random picture on the front (i.e. not a souvenir) is the perfect replacement for someone who NEVER USES one. Basically, he was with OW and didn’t want to buy something she might question (he always made fun of hokey tourist gifts). Looking at makes me angry and it will make the perfect gift for someone at Christmas, I just don’t know who yet.

Tom – you mentioned that WS opinion is one I shouldn’t value. Ironically, he said the same things about me that you did – that I am loveable, that this isn’t my fault and that I am everything he wants, just not right now. So, I have decided that everything he says is a lie meant to appease me.

BlueIris – I agree about the lying via email. That was why I refused to do it. I basically gave him enough rope to hang himself. The email/facebook account I gave him access to is there only to contact the OW (I wasn’t silly enough to give her the chance to contact my friends and family! As I pointed out to WS, if I wanted to be vindictive, I had the perfect opportunity with a list of family and friends available for me to out them both too.)

As for “But you deserve so, so very much more. You do! You ARE loveable! You ARE worthy! You are SPECIAL, IMPORTANT, A TREASURE, A GEM, SMART, TALENTED, CARING, LOVING, DEVOTED, TRUSTWORTHY,” this is what WS keeps saying, but it obviously is either a) not enough in life to be happy or b) a lie to appease me.

FF’s Questions - Short of holding a gun to another person's head, can anyone MAKE another person do anything? Nope. That is why I am miserable. I can’t make him do anything to love me.
- Why is making OW happy more important to him than making YOU, HIS WIFE, happy? I don’t know and, when I ask him, he can’t tell me. He basically wants to make both of us happy and can’t figure out what to do without hurting atleast one of us. He can’t even tell me what the difference is between a wife and a g/f, though he claims he knows there is one.
- Why is he afraid to tell the OW the truth about your living arrangements? Because he will lose her and the happiness that goes with her. The only comfort I take in this is that he doesn’t respect her enough to give her the truth. He wants to build an R based on a lie. He has told me, when I asked, that he will never tell her that he was married all this time. Frankly, if she falls for it (especially after my giant, orange warning flag), she deserves what she gets
- Why does he feel the need to blame you for his actions and choices? Because he is too immature to take responsibility for his actions (on some of these things, I am seeing quite clearly)
- Why are you giving him the power to determine whether or not you are lovable? Just because he is in a delusional state, having an A, and blaming you for his faults, does that mean you are wrong or unlovable? He is the only who ever has found me such. He is the only one who has ever watched my back (he cries honest tears, and he doesn’t cry for anything, when he admits that all he wants to do is protect me but knows that he is the one I need to be protected from). I never felt loved by family (I was always the one who could take care of herself and hustled off to someone else to be taken care of when younger sibs. Need something)
- What is so important about February for him to make a decision? Because she ahs applied for a job in Ottawa and, if she gets it, will be here in Feb. I am guessing that she believes she will be living with him, even though he keeps telling me that she doesn’t plan her future like I do (yeah, that’s why she only applied for a job in Ottawa and no where else? WS isn’t seeing OW so clearly. He also believes she ahs no faults – I true sign of delusion. No one is perfectly good or evil and someone who sees a loved one’s faults, and loves them anyway, is seeing them for who they truly are)
- Why does he get to choose what happens to your life? Why can't YOU choose? Because my choice is to live with him.
- Why doesn't OW deserve to know the truth about her OP? If he truly believes that he will end up with her, why not be honest with her? I don’t know. I asked him this and the only thing I can figure out from the convoluted answer I got is that he knows that the lie was wrong and can’t figure out how to end the lie without hurting and/or losing her. I guess in this way he must believe I am better than her because he told me and I was willing to forgive him (if the A stopped, and still am willing). If she loves him, she should be willing to do the same. I guess he doesn’t trust that she loves him.
- Why does he believe that he is happier with her? He doesn’t know (I also asked this, if only to figure if there is anything I can do). He has told me, though, that he doesn’t want me to change, that I am perfect the way I am.
- If he is, indeed, happier with her, why not divorce you and marry her? Wouldn't that be the more honest way of handling the situation instead of lying to you and OW? Again, I asked him this. He is afraid that if he divorces me, she won’t want him and he will be all alone (this just got me angry and I pointed out that I don’t want to be his back up plan. At that point, he wanted to restart the divorce papers because, if he had to choose at that moment between a woman he spent 2 ½ weeks having fun with versus a woman who makes him feel miserable for the choices he made, he would choose her. Heck, I would too. That is what I mean about his decision being my fault. Who would want to be with someone who fights with you when you can have “happiness and light” somewhere else? But, I did point out that we wouldn’t be fighting about this if he had not had the A to begin with.
- What have you done that H believes you deserve such abominable treatment from him? (I'll answer this one for you: NOTHING!!! An A is his choice!) Does he even see that his treatment of you is abominable? Yes he does and he states over and over again that I have done nothing to deserve this. So, I guess that means that I still get treated like crap for no reason at all. Is there any doubt why I think being single wouldn’t be any better?
- Were your questions truly vindictive, or is he just angry because he got caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar and he refuses to take responsibility for his own actions, preferring to spew ridiculous and hurtful lies at you to make you feel to blame instead? They would have been vindictive if I knew she didn’t know. I didn’t, and they weren’t. I know that this all happened because he got caught.
- What is in your psyche that makes you believe you have no right to stand up to him and tell him that he made this mess, and it is HIS friggin' responsibility to clean it up? But how does he clean it up? He asked me this numerous times. He is positive that our R can’t survive this A, no matter how much I tell him otherwise. He admits that, if he had told me when his eye started to wander or when he picked her up at the airport, we could have fixed things. He admits he screwed up. He just doesn’t believe that the anger I feel towards him could ever go away (probably because, if the tables were turned, he would never forgive)
- Why does he feel the need to be in the middle of a tired, pathetic soap opera? I have no clue.
- Do you believe continuing to live with him under these circumstances will make you happier, or will it destroy any personal strength and self-esteem you have left? Can you promise me that leaving would make me feel better?


Chinook

I sense the sorry, the disillusionment, and the defeat in your post. I need to remind you that even if he will say anything to justify and rationalize his actions, it doesn't mean everything he says is a lie. If telling you the truth makes him feel better about what he's doing, then he'll do that. If tell an lie makes him feel better, then he'll do that.

You are no less lovable if he says you are loveable, just as you are no less lovable if he says you are not. It just independent upon his opinion.

Here's the truth... that his choice to pursue this girlfriend completely because it satisfied his lust and greed for more. There are plenty of men in the world who would jump at a chance for a relationship with you. There was a point in my recovery where I had to come to this realization for myself. I had to know that there would be plenty of women who would want a perminant relationship with me if I were not married, ant that my wife had treated something very valuable with carelessness. My wife had a great prize, a valuable jewel, a precious resource, and she had squandered it through her affair. I don't mean this in an arrogant way, but in one that affirms I am not disposible, I am not garbage, but I am a man worthy of a good womann.

In that same way, you are a woman worthy of a good man. Don't let anything your husband has said or done change how you see yourself.

TomJ

Dearest Chinook,

Living with irrationality is not easy. On some level, all of us I suppose have done, or are doing that, because it is difficult (I'd personally say its impossible) to find rational reasons for having an A. A fencesitting WS who chooses to stay in a world of irrationality after discovery of their A, asks their BS to then live in irrationality, too. The world can be a hard enough place on its own. To choose non-sense makes the world that much harder because there is no means of safety...no rules of conduct other than nonsensical rules.

I don't know if I'm making sense or not here. Your H can't give you logical reasons for what he's doing and what he wants, and how he wants it (other than that he is selfish and immature). In saying that he has no plans to change that behavior, he asks you to join him in his world of non-sense by playing along and quietly making space for OW in his heart and later, in his home. Though I know you love him better than anyone could, how does it help you to live in a world of non-sense? More importantly, do you see the damage to yourself that living irrationally will cause (and has caused)?

I have no answers or words of wisdom for you, Chinook. I wish I did. I can hear the shattering of your heart all the way across the country. Maybe that's accompanied by the din of your H's irrationality. Both are deafening.

I do wonder that if you did not go gently into that good night, but if you stay with H all through this year and into next with no intention of moving, what would he do? What would he do if YOU do not choose to leave quietly before February, but he must be the one to have to leave you? For a man unwilling to "hurt" either woman (though that's all he is doing), I wonder what his course of action would be?

As for the notion of "why would someone stay with a morose person when they could be with someone fun and happy", the answer is NO ONE is happy 24/7 and being unhappy is not cause to go run to the next playmate when things get tough. That isn't love. That's entertainment. You are not a toy constructed for H's pleasure. Neither will the OW be when it gets right down to the practical, dirty, bill-paying, PMS-y, cranky, don't agree with WS parts of reality. Marriage vows normally have the words "for better or worse" in them. There is the rational, logical expectation that a marriage will find both H and W in better and worse places during their lives. The vow and promise is to be there throughout. Anything less than that, is not love.

Sigh. No decision has to be made today, I'm assuming. If possible, try to do something comforting for yourself, or strengthening. Look for what makes sense in the world and gravitate towards it. Look for what makes sense for you. No matter what you decide or feel, you have my support and care. (((Chinook))) BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Ironically, he can't leave me, FF. He must stay here for his job (or get arrested). I can't afford the condo payments, he offered to give me the place but I had to pay (my wages will always suffer as his wife. It is the price every military wife willingly but grudgingly pays). I would love nothing better than to kick him out and make him restart his life, but I can't. The only financially viable solution is for me t leave him.

Chinook

Chinook,

After having seen "Bourne Ultimatum," I am afraid of what training in hand to hand combat your H may be had; otherwise, I would be more than happy to fly up there and whap him upside the head one with my wand!

Seriously, I am so sorry you are going through all of this mess. It is so obvious that your H is in a very bad state of mind currently.

I like the suggestion that you DON'T leave. You stay right there, and when February comes, what will he do?

Other than that, why can't HE buy out YOUR share of the condo? Isn't your name on the mortgage also? If so, I can't help but think that in the event of a divorce, the condo would have to be sold, or one of you would have to buy the other's interest in the condo.

Would he go to MC or IC? Have you asked? Would you keep asking?

I'm going to go right back to my 180 mantra--regardless of where you are living, I really do believe doing the 180 will help you maintain your sanity in the insanity swirling around you.

HUGE encouraging fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

Chinook,

You have your support team in place!!!!

Love the questions FF and Blue Iris...what if Chinook stays until Feb...thru Christmas..and OW shows up? Can WS make her leave if OW shows up for Christmas...

Staying helps Chinook save money...possibly sell her furniture so she has money for new furniture when she moves....( chinook stated in another post the furniture was hers before the marriage)

There are marital assets that have to be divided...I don't know anything about canadian divorce laws, but I would venture that assets have to be split 50/50...

renting a room in your own home could be considered as contributing to the payment of the home if you own the house or condo...renting would be a different story..

Chinook, just remember that you are not at fault...the attraction is the OW is exciting because she is the new flavor of the day...it is not about you...

((((hugs))))

Pat




"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Let me add to Pat's wise words:

The A isn't even about the OW. It is ALL about WS, and the excitement and attention. OW could be ANYONE!!!

ff

FF – I laugh at the Bourne Ultimatum thing – we took martial arts together (before the A, we were a cozy couple) and I can swing a mean stick (though I still hit myself in the head with nunchucks!)

As for not leaving when she shows up, it never crossed my mind. I hate confrontation and, honestly. I have no where else to go in town if it went bad. Also, even I have my limits – and being somewhere where I am clearly not wanted is one of them. Even now, WS is not kicking me out. If I choose to leave, it is because it is my choice and not his. It is the only power I have. If I wait until Feb, it is his choice and I have no power left.

As for the condo, according to Quebec law, it is half mine, even if my name wasn’t on the ownership papers (and it is – that is when I discovered that my married name is not my legal one here. Ugh!). And, in saner moments, we have discussed finances and come to an agreement that, because we are both worth so little, we won’t get revenge this way. We agreed that he could stay in the condo until he is posted out (which he eventually will be) and that, when he sells it, I get have the profits. Financially, this is a good plan as right now we would break even or possibly lose money. I would know about any sale as he requires my signature for it go through (and we agreed to exchange contact information for this reason and because he offered to keep me as his next of kin for his death benefits).

As for pension, etc., we will leave each other’s alone; as long as a judge agrees to it (his is lucrative ONLY if he stays in for his career). I have contemplated selling him my furniture, thus saving the moving costs, but I doubt he would have the cash to buy them. Plus, I “cherish” the thought of him living in a condo with no furniture and nothing to wash his clothes with (hee, hee, hee). That is worth the cost of moving and storage!

I asked about MC and he says it won’t work since he doesn’t want to give up the OW (and he is right). If he goes for IC, they put him on medical category, which means no course, no promotion, and back to being a clerk, which is the job which is causing a lot of his depression. Plus, he did go for IC last year and that was when he started having problems (he came to this conclusion, not me) so it only seemed to make things worse.

Dancin-gal – the reason we chose Nov. as a do-or-die date is so that I could still move without risking my life. I would not wish a drive across Canada in winter on anyone, especially through Northern Ontario (the prairies are just boring). But, then again, we had agreed on Sept. and I did manage to get that extended. I am frightened about what might happen if I just refused to leave and even more worried about the conversation if I brought it up. What would happen if I just stayed and made him work around me?


Chinook

Sorry to hear how things have gone for you.

I remember feeling much the same as you months ago. I just couldn't get it, couldn't understand how someone who I thought I was with for life could behave so badly. It hurt like hell. I felt unloveable, unable to give my WS what they needed etc.

Six weeks into separation and I can tell you it's like a weight has lifted now. I've concentrated on myself and realise I'm better off. Once the R was over the As stopped hurting altogether.

I hope you find happiness beyond this, Sam