I'm working on my karma and don't know if I'm being brave or stupid.

WS and I were out grocery shopping and had plans to get a movie and have a quiet night. Then he gets a call from a buddy at work. Thing is, this is a buddy who WS had suspected of being suicidal, who had disappeared for a few weeks and who'sw ife had left him. Buddy was about to spend his first weekend alone and called up WS for the first time (WS, being worried about the guy, hadghiven him his number, not expecting a call) to go and do something. WS told him he would call back and then discussed this with me.

Before I go into the discussion, I should point out that Buddy is from rural Newfoundland and Ottawa seems to eat rural people alive (I being a prime example). WS had also been told by another buddy that she was suicidal and he reported to his chain, but isn't confident they will do anything. Basically, the military chain of command are dropping the ball and not looking after their peole like they would if this was a base and not the nation's capital. WS has ended up being the person many people go to for help because he has been standing up to the jerks in charge. Add to that the fact that his step-father, a seargant, once ignored his gut about someone below him having a rough time and put off inviting him to dinner only to end up having to write his eulogy, and you will understand why WS would be willing to leave me to spend time with a buddy.

But WS felt guilty and said so. I told him to go and, when WS told me to be truthful about my feelings, I said that I would have given anything to have a friend to spend my first night alone with and that was why I was choked up. (BTW, I wasn't trying to make him feel guilty, but it was a nice side effect). He offered to stay behind, but I told him that I didn't want him to resent me and that I would just be sniping at him all night if he was. He promised to spend the rest of the weekend doing whatever I want (of course, have no clue what I want to do) and pointed out that his guilt makes him much nicer to me. He even offered to let me sleep in his bed (side note:I hate sleeping alone and he knows that. He also kows I have too much pride to ask to be let back into our bed).

He also said, unprompted, that he knows he has made some big mistakes and he doesn't want to hurt me with little things. He says he is honestly trying to make things better and that, even though he can't give me any answer today, he does want to make me happy, he just doesn't know how (hmmm...end the A? But, I didn't say that because a fight would make no difference at that point).

So, I have ended up spending a Friday night where I was going to watch a movie with my WS instead working on my karma, praying that I will have someone who would see me coming to work red-eyed and stressed and be worried enough to give me a number to call if I ever wanted to do something. I don't know which is worse - knowing my WS is having an A or knowing that I have nobody who cares enough that I am surviving this all. And that is why I need the karma more than a night with my WS.

Chinook

You are continuly showing your ws how wonderful you are. I'm sorry it leaves you alone tonight. Your ws has got to be thinking about you and how unselfish you are. I pray he realizes what a wonderful loving wife he has to come home too.
Please remember you are not alone, you are constantly in my thoughts. Get a good night sleep. Let us know how tonight turns out. I pray your unselfishness brings a positive light to your relationship.
God Bless
Laura

Well, this wekend went well until today. WS ended up buying a bike and we wnet biking until the pedal fell off and we had to return to the store (thank goodness he wasn't hurt). We seemed to be haivng fun.

But today didn't go so well. He had his bood friend over who has been away on course for a couple of months. This friend is older than me and pretty much the only guy WS is willing to talk to about anything. He has also been a friend to me, but I rarely talk to him because he hung out with WS and OW this spring, which makes me think he supports WS in his choices (friend is also divorced). When I pointed this out to WS, he said that I have to stop assuming what other people think, which I guess means I am wrong? It turns out this friend is also the only person WS has tlaked to about my suicide attempt. I guess this is a good thing, because WS aactually talked to me about it today, insisting that I agree to hand over any pills I may have (he doens't believe that I don't have any) or he would go to a doctor and have me put in hospital. He also told me he was worried I would hit him (which explains why he would flinch when I would be near him when we fought) and that I would hurt our animals. He said the reason he called me 15 times last week during the storm is that, since I had my car and wasn't home, I had hurt myself. He says he wakes me every morning to make sure I am alive. It hurts me that he is so worried and I told him that this can't be the reason he stays with me.

This was actually the end of our fight today. It started when his friend showed up. I went on the balcony to give them time to talk without me (small condo ) I got cold, so I came in and joined them. WS was showing his pics from his trip and looked at me and said "You won't want to see these," so I went to my room. I wasn't angry and understood, but that changed when he came in and said "You can come out now." WTF? Was I sent to my room like a child? I just stayed in my room until they went down to the lake (WS let me know), when I went into the living room and checked my email. When they came in , WS did offer to have me join them for coffee, but I was still P.O. about being treated like a child, so I just went back to my room, where I ended up sleeping until much later. At that point, I went to WS, friend had gone home, and said that I was mad at being dismissed like a child and that he had the gall to give me permission to return. I tried to be very focused about this issue, but the fight degenerated into the usual where he tells me how OW makes him happy and the only reason we are doing this right now is because I wanted to give another try. Then we got into the usual insults and dirt fighting (both of us guilty) but, then I realized this was usual, so I just got up and started cooking dinner. He told me not to slam his stuff (and explains why it is his) and I just was silent. he got mad at my silence and I pointed out that I am trying to break our pattern and not say something mad. He wouldn't let me not eat (I wasn't hungry), so I made a tiny plate. We ended up eating little anyway, but atleast the pattern broke.

Then he talked about the suicide,which changed the tone. Then, another friend came over for coffee (we knew this before the fight as he called just as it started and WS didn't have the heart to tell him no because the guy is lonely. Noting a pattern?) Luckily, we had pulled ourselves together enough to appear normal. and now, at the end of the night, we are normal. Of course, I still have no idea what is going on and our future together looks even more shaky. I just wish I had a crystal ball that could tell me if we stayed together or split. I could handle either/or if I knew. Fairyfriend, got one stuck to the end of your wand?

Chinook

(((Chinook)))))

I am so sorry that your H is still flip flopping on who he wants to be with. I know it is a painful thing to live through and my H was hiding and lying about it to me. I don't know if I could have survived that. Your strenght amazes me.

I wonder why every time you get into a fight why your H feels the need to bring the OW up and how "happy" they are together.

Your are living through a horrible time right now and the best thing that you can do is to look after yourself. Go and have fun. It seems from your posts you going out without H gets him all worked up. Which also happened to my H, and I found that he paid more attention to me when I had my own things to do and wasn't waiting around for him. He seemed to realize that I was finally going to go out and do things with our children that I hadn't done in the past because I was waiting for him to come. And now he wants to come with us and its exactly what I wanted.

We are at a very good spot right now. A few months ago I never would have thought that I could feel this good. I found a part time job that works with my hours, and my H is helping around the house (finally), and is helping with our 3 boys. My baby has started to crawl and my oldest just started 4 th grade and every aspect in my life is on the up. I still think about the A everyday but I can shake my head and get it to go away most days. The times that it won't go away I usually cry for a few minutes and feel the pain of it, but it doesn't throw me into that downward spiral anymore.

I have been thinking about you lately and really feel for you and the painful situation you are in and I just want you to know that there are people here who care about you and will always be here to talk and to listen. You are a brave, strong woman and I admire you.

Keep your head up!
Kelly

Dear Chinook,

I am sorry you are hurting. I am sorry, too, that I don't have a crystal ball--I could have figured out the winning number for that $330 million lottery drawing Friday and be sitting very pretty now!

Several thoughts popped into my mind when I read your last post.

1. IMFO, your H needs to listen to himself. He said, "that I have to stop assuming what other people think." Correct me if I am wrong here (and I don't believe I am), but isn't he very much guilty of assuming what YOU are thinking?!? My evidence is his insistance that you are suicidal without any current reason to believe so--"WS aactually talked to me about it today, insisting that I agree to hand over any pills I may have (he doens't believe that I don't have any) or he would go to a doctor and have me put in hospital." "He said the reason he called me 15 times last week during the storm is that, since I had my car and wasn't home, I had hurt myself. He says he wakes me every morning to make sure I am alive."

2. He has irrational fears. "He also told me he was worried I would hit him (which explains why he would flinch when I would be near him when we fought) and that I would hurt our animals." Seriously, have you ever hit him? Even if you were to hit him, is he not perfectly capable of fending off any blows? Have you EVER even threatened to hurt your animals? Isn't one HUGE reason why you are living in the same condo with him and putting up with his bs is to be with your animals?

3. He is acting like a martyr. "he tells me how OW makes him happy and the only reason we are doing this right now is because I wanted to give another try." What about all the impassioned speeches about how he can't bear not to have you in his life? How he wants to be with OW but is sure they will not end up together forever, and then he'll be alone and not have you anymore? Has he conveniently forgotten his previous words to you?

4. His behavior was incredibly hurtful and tactless. "WS was showing his pics from his trip and looked at me and said 'You won't want to see these.'" How much further in the fog can he possibly go? To have the nerve to show the pictures of his time with OW and put the blame on you if your feelings are upset is clear evidence of his irrationability.

5. His behavior is controlling and insulting. To expect you to leave the room upon command and then return upon command is preposterous.

6. His behavior is immature and condescending. To devolve into statements that OW makes him happy (with the stated or implied thought that you don't) instead of accepting that it is HIS job to make HIMSELF happy--not anybody else's--shows his unwillingness to work on his own issues. To yell at you, "He told me not to slam his stuff (and explains why it is his)" and act like everything in YOUR MARITAL PROPERTY is HIS is incredibly juvenile.

Honestly, Chinook, he doesn't deserve you or your love. I guess he deserves an immature however old she is GIRL (and I believe I remember your saying she is 21 or so) OW, and not a mature, LOVING WOMAN that he has as his WIFE.

I am sad and angry that your H refuses even to try to come out of the fog. I know you have written that you feel you might have a chance, as his only contact with her is via email, but sweetie, that can be all it takes to keep him in the fog. CONTACT IS CONTACT. Period. No ands, ifs, or buts. I know this all too painfully, as my H's A was primarily via email, with five meetings over a two year span for sex, and yet my H's A lasted 4 1/4 YEARS. I am not trying to bum you out, but contact just by email is still contact and can still maintain the sticky strings of fantasyland.

I wish I had some strong fairy words of wisdom for you. I don't. I admire your ability to maintain your control, and your being able to look at what is going on ("I realized this was usual, so I just got up and started cooking dinner.") even as you are in the midst of a bad situation. You are an intelligent, patient, caring woman. Please remember that, no matter what. Because I know you want to be with your H, I am so hoping that he wakes up before he loses you even though right now I don't believe he deserves to have you in his life. But I understand that love transcends the concept of whether or not someone "deserves" to be loved. We just do.

Gentle fairy hugs,

fairyfriend

edited to add: I REALLY do NOT appreciate your H's threatening you--basically telling you to do what he wants, or he has to the power to go to a doctor, convince that doctor that you are out of control, and then have you committed. Threatening like this just seems like a form of bullying to me, and if there is one group of people I rally against, it's BULLIES!

FF wrote: I REALLY do NOT appreciate your H's threatening you--basically telling you to do what he wants, or he has to the power to go to a doctor, convince that doctor that you are out of control, and then have you committed. Threatening like this just seems like a form of bullying to me, and if there is one group of people I rally against, it's BULLIES!

I agree but what if he is right? I mean, I do suffer from depression and even I will admit that, when I get mad, I seem to loose it (though I have never hit him). Looking at it from his P.O.V., I am starting to wonder if the A has pushed me over the edge. I can control myself at work, so no one here knows I am having trouble. I have no friends that I meet regularly. He is the only one who sees me, especially if I am angry. He has seen more times than I can count in uncontrollable tears

The irony of his threat to take me to the doctor is that I was thinking the same thing - I rid the house of pills and admit that I should have seen a doc earlier. The fact that I could rationalize not seeking medical attention could easily be proof that I am not in a right frame of mind. Or it could be that I have had enough battling our local medical system and do not have to want to deal with a doctor who doesn't speak English (and will be angry that I don't speak French).

It comes down to this - how do you know if you are not thinking clearly? How do I know that I am not crazy? How can I tell if he is bullying me by threatening me or caring about me by making sure I get treatment I have refused in the past? Honestly, somuch of what he said made me angry ("his" stuff, him always referring to OW makign him happy), but that threat was not one of them.

Chinook

"It comes down to this - how do you know if you are not thinking clearly? How do I know that I am not crazy? How can I tell if he is bullying me by threatening me or caring about me by making sure I get treatment I have refused in the past? Honestly, somuch of what he said made me angry ("his" stuff, him always referring to OW makign him happy), but that threat was not one of them."

Thinking clearly, in my mind, means thinking rationally. You, Chinook, are living in an irrational situation by being married to a man who is not acting or living "married". Your reactions are not irrational. You are hurt and angry. Those are clearly logical reactions to an irrational living situation.

Would a bully threaten contacting authorities? Yes. Would a caring spouse cease the activities that are hurting you? Yes.
How much of your H's behavior would you characterize as "caring"? How much of his behavior would you characterize as "bullying"?

I wish we could all drag your H out of his deep, dark fog. I fear very much how deeply he has dragged you into it with him.
BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Chinook,

Both FF and Blue Iris expressed my feeling.. You are NOT irrational... He is playing with your head...

Please don't buy into his thinking... he is not rational in his thinking...

Looking back at some of the things you have told us,
THE UNFORTUNATE thing is that you have encountered a less than good priest...that man also has issues for the way he treated you...just remember that he is a man first and not perfect...he owes you a big apology. When you are in small towns, it is hard to make friends, usually having a family helps..is there a bowling alley close by ? Join a league...you don't have to be great just trying to bowl is fun.. Welcome wagon..they usually have activities...the Y. or look at the Episcopal Church...go there...they may have a dinner group, bible study...ways of meeting other women...

I can tell you we all cried our eyes out and shed many many tears after D-day...Many of us has suffered bouts depression ...taken meds...you are not unusual...and the anger of wanting to hit out is not uncommon...all you are experiencing is normal for being betrayed.

Ask your H to put himself in your position...if you had a boyfriend and spent time with that man ...what would he do, and how would he feel...if he saw pictures of you and another man...and heard you say how the OM makes you so happy...

((((hugs))))

Pat




"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."

Hey, Chinook. You've been so much on my heart today. I'm hoping you're doing o.k.

It occurred to me that so much of you social frustration is about living in a part of Canada where French is THE language and THE way to be. Even if you speak some French (which I'm assuming you do), how about taking a community college French class to find some other people who are in the same boat as you (English speakers who are probably somewhat persecuted and/or treated less than fairly). If nothing else, you come out of the class with better French skills which will help you with the French majority in your area. But maybe there can also be allies/friends/comrades-in-arms that would share your daily frustrations and see each other as aligned in this particular environmental struggle. And then if these potential new allies get invited to coffee or an after class ice cream or beer, other common interests might be found.

Hopefully, this is more than a wishful thought. I want very much for you to find happiness and some place of comfort and refuge in your life. BlueIris

"We cannot wait for the storm to pass; we must learn to walk in the rain."

Chinook,

2 years after d day I found this forum. The greatest gift I received from this forum is the realization that I was sane and normal.

I had a remorseful H and he did cut off all contact with OW on d day. However that didn't stop me from going through the intense emotions of the terrible trauma I lived through. I cried uncontrollably for a good 2 1/2 years. I asked a million ugly questions and every conversation lead to the A etc. etc.

I too was alone in the fact I kept this all to myself. Family situations convinced me to keep it private. Time went on and I wasn't getting better. Then this family of cyber friends confirmed my sanity and helped me get to the understanding that NONE of this was my fault.

In my opinion your H has the best of two worlds. A girlfriend waiting to spend her future with him. A W who knows this but is still trying to win her H back. Trying to out play her game is not going to make you the winner. She already has a commitment from your H and your H has told you he is going to be with her because he wants the happiness they share. He is bullying you because "HE CAN". Pick yourself up and lean on us.

Amber

Thanks all for the support. I think I am going to have to give up on the M and move on. My plan was to use this time untoil mid-November to put myself in a situation where the move won't be so hard emotionally and financially. After all, my family will be ecstatic to have me home for Christmas (they've been asking me to visit since last Christmas, but I just don't have the vacation time to make it worthwhile and, until recently, WS's family was in the same province, which meant splitting time between the two).

I know some of you are wondering about why we set dates. WS is going on course at the beginning of November and will be away until end of January. I have told him that I will not be alone in this city just to be kicked out for his g/f in February (when her classes are over). I may seem spineless at times, but I know enough that giving him a deadline will make him choose. he originally chose the end of October, but then realized my birthday is Nov. 2, so he didn't want me to spend it completely alone and sad (instead, I get to spend it waiting for a decision? Depending on how he treats me, I may jsut refuse anything he gives me and not be there when he comes up for the weekend, he will be on course. Maybe a nice weekend at a fancy hotel will be a good treat for me!).

As for why I must move - I hate city living. The isolation is worse than any small town, especially here. I honestly beleive no one cares about anything that doesn't directly affect them. There is no sense of community, even among the military (probably because no one gets sent away to dangerous places when posted to Ottawa). I have tried joining clubs and even a a couple of choirs. I would try talking to people or inviting people to go out for coffee after, and everyone was too busy. I miss living in a small town - even an outsider has a shot at making friends if you are willing to roll up your sleeves and do some work.

So, I comfort myself with promises of mountains, solitudes and commutes that are less than 2 hours (I used to be able to drive 200 km in that time, now I just go to work) Luckily, back home is going through a boom and even cashiers are making $15/hour plus bonuses. Plus, my Mom's store is currently understaffed (poor Dad is living his retirement as a cashier in a gift store) My one fear is lack of housing (vacancies are at 0%), especially if I take my cat and dog (which is non-negotiable). I may end up having to ask my parents to find my a basement to rent (they may offer theirs, but moving back home would be too easy and too full of judgement - it is bad enough I couldn't keep my husband faithful, but to live with "mommy & daddy" on top of that would be too much) so I have an address for the movers. They know enough people in town that they may be able to find me something.

Of course, that all depends on them not looking at me and saying something like "you made your bed, so you lie in it" and not be willing to help. In that case, I will just find an anonymous town somewhere and disappear.

Chinook

Chinook

You had nothing to do with not keeping your H faithful.The A was all about him...

You have to learn to stand up for your self...respect yourself and your parents will respect you too..when your mom starts saying things you don't like, say " mom I am a grown up and yes Bad stuff happens but I am a good person, and didn't deserve this to happen and I am dealing with it the best I know how...so please drop the subject".Your mom may not realize she is being critical, that may be the way her mother talked to her..
I have a friend who's mother is always very critical of her and she changes the subject or says what did you say? I must have a bad connection.. will call you later.

just remember we are here for you..

((((hugs))))

Pat

"Time is precious, but truth is more precious than time."